The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Too Brown to Keep: A Search for Love, Forgiveness, and Healing by Judy Fambrough-Billingsley

Episode Date: June 11, 2024

Too Brown to Keep: A Search for Love, Forgiveness, and Healing by Judy Fambrough-Billingsley https://amzn.to/45iWOG7 Judy Fambrough-Billingsley bares her soul by describing the transformation experienced in her quest to find both birth parents after being abandoned to live in a Kinderheim shortly after World War II. Too Brown to Keep: A Search for Love, Forgiveness, and Healing recounts the captivating, true account of the emotional and psychological effects of being an abandoned biracial international adoptee who overcame the odds of the emotional trauma of abandonment, grief, and loss. She includes a thought-provoking chapter on Forgiveness and Healing. This easy-to-read self-help book concludes with a guide to researching your own ancestry or finding and reconnecting with a person who has been missing from your life.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast. The hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show. The preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready. Get ready. Strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times. Because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. This is Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com.

There you go, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the big show. We certainly appreciate you guys coming by. As always, the Chris Voss Show is the family that loves you but doesn't judge you. At least not as harshly as your mother-in-law. And you know, when you listen to the Chris Voss Show, it gives you the Chris Voss Show glow. It's this ambient aura that envelopes you when you listen to the show. And you learn so much.

Your brain just, I think we can can say scientifically your brain increases by at least 0.015 i don't know what that means but that or it's just brain swelling you should probably that looked at an er near you but other than that you know if you've fallen maybe i don't know or if you've fallen sometimes you feel like you're watching the chris voss show anyway guys we have the most amazing authors on the show and and refer them, your family, friends, and relatives, to Goodreads.com, Fortress, Chris Foss, LinkedIn.com, Fortress, Chris Foss, Chris Foss 1, and the TikTokity, and all those crazy places on the internet. We have an amazing author on the show with us today. Her book is called Two Brown to Keep, A Search for Love, Forgiveness, and Healing. It came out September 20, 2019.

Judy Vanbrough Billingsley is on the show with us today talking to us about her book. She is a part of a quest that she began many years ago to answer many questions of her life. During her journey of discovery, she earned a Bachelor's of Arts degree, California Lifetime Teaching credential, and Master's degree in Educational administration from the University of Laverne, California. She's retired now and a mother of two sons and four grandsons, a member of Alpha Kappa Alpha Eta Gamma sorority. It's like a tongue twister there. How many alphas are in there? And a member of the National Coalition of 100 Black Women's Sacramento chapter, the author finds time to serve her church and community in many ways.

Welcome to the show, Jeannie. How are you? Fine. Thank you, Chris. Thank you for having me. Yeah, I'm glad you're an alpha alpha. Alpha alpha alpha alpha. I'm part of the alpha beta. It's an old grocery store from the 70s It's an old grocery store from the 70s Alpha Beta, remember that? Oh yes, you know what, I do remember that When I was a kid in Cali I do

Alpha Beta Whatever happened to that store? Somebody probably bought it But Ralph's is still around, I think. Anyway, give us your dot coms. Tell us where people can find you on the interwebs. You know what? I don't even.

My website is under JudyFambroBillingsley.com. Okay. There you go. I do have a Facebook page, which is J as in Jack, F as in Frank, and B as in Billingsley, and then dot author. But usually, you know, if you type in my name, even if you miss the Fambro and do the Billingsley, I pop up and you will definitely, you know, find me on Instagram as well. There you go.

So give us a 30,000 overview of the new book to round to keep i was answering a question that i always had in my life that all of us human beings ask ourselves whether it's conscious or subconsciously and that is who am i and because i was adopted i wasn't quite sure especially when my teacher asked me to write when i was in sixth sixth grade who do you look like? And I'm like, I don't look like either one of them, my parents, because they adopted me. Who do you look like? Yeah, yeah. Who do you most look like? You know, your mom, your dad.

And I'll never forget that assignment because I just couldn't do it. Wow. And so that kind of got me on the quest of searching and answering that question, who am I? And that memoir here is for that, talking about it. There you go. So did you know that you were adopted up until then? Yes, I did. One nice thing, my adopted parents did tell me from day one that I was adopted because my sister was adopted with me.

I was two. She was eight when they met us in New York at the airport. And we were handed over to them. And that's how we got to America. And how old were you when you were adopted then? I was two when I came. Officially adopted was later on down the line. I was two years old and actually had to have a nurse

with me flying from Germany because, you know, it's a 21-hour trip. And my sister, who is, she's full-blooded, sister of mine, we have the mom and same dad. She was five at the time. Now, was there something about your parents that, were your parents white or black my father was african-american u.s soldier army and my mom was a white german woman okay so that's why you you saw the difference when you were asked in school uh about that no no no it had nothing to do with race yeah no not for me it wasn't about race. It was actually about physically, who do I physically look like? Okay. All right.

Yeah. That clarifies that. I was assuming that thing, so it's good we nailed that down. Now, so you don't remember your original parents from the age that you were adopted? No. Okay. There you go. And let's see.

So tell us more about growing up with them. You know, what kind of influenced you and how you got down that road of you started looking for this? And what was the frame of mind that everyone, listeners, everyone has to get into is that I was born in 1950. So that is after World War II, which ended in 1945. And so during that time, if you think of Germany and Hitler and the Aryan race, they were the pure Aryan race and, you know, anti-Jewish, anti-Black, all of that. They thought they were the pure. Thinking makes sometimes, you know, things happen as we can see today. But my birth father was called back to the United States. Of course, he was gone. Then my birth mother decided that she didn't need to hassle with my sister and I. And so we were put in a kinderheim. And I talk about how that black car came and picked us up.

And we left our village never to see anyone ever again. And a Kinderheim is a car, is that correct? I don't know. Well, it would be nice if it were, Chris. But Kinderheim is an orphanage. Oh, it's an orphanage. Okay. I just want to lay that foundation of what that was. So people, people knew,

because when you said you're picked up in a kinder, I know, driven off, I was like, wait, is that a car? Yes, yes. And you know, all of this that I share in the book, and I do say it in the introduction is, is through my research. You know, at two years old, I didn't remember anything other than knowing that I was adopted. My adopted parents always assured me that I was loved and I was given up due to my mother loving me. And I always had a big question about that and discovered that that wasn't exactly the right story. And so we came to America actually when we were dropped off at the Kinderheim in Mannheim, Germany, which I did have an opportunity to go and visit. There were hundreds of us biracial kids. And that's the first time that the United States experienced having children from their soldiers.

Oh, yeah. from their soldiers. So we were actually children who were without a country because being born in Germany, I had German citizenship. I had German birth certificate, German name, German birth certificate, all of that put in the Kinderheim. We were advertised on newspapers throughout Europe and the United States. And my parents, adopted parents who could not have children, saw that advertisement and adopted my sister and I together, thank goodness. Oh, wow. Yeah. Now, the title of the book is Too Brown to Keep. Is there something behind that title?

Very much. I do want to preface it by saying that the book is not all about racial but what happened to me i was in germany i experienced i was at a birthday party in germany in the village a small village that i was there until i was two and i had a very public hurtful rejection from my older sister who still lives in Germany and was not adopted with us. And it was embarrassing and hurtful, but I wasn't about to do anything. I took the high road and said nothing and walked away. And so in the village, I was spending the night at my babysitter's house. At that time. She had babysat us when we were little.

And in the middle of the night, Chris, believe it or not, all of a sudden I hadn't named my book. I'd been writing it, but hadn't named it. And it said, wow, too brown to keep because there was some racial stuff that she had said to me. Okay. Okay. Okay. And so I jumped up out of my bed and I wrote it down because you know that if I had stayed asleep and woke up in the morning, I would not have remembered the title. Yeah. And basically it is about when you look at the history and everything that us biracial

kids were not accepted. There are six of us that my birth mom gave away. Okay. And when I found out I'm the only one, the only one that is brown skinned, my sister who has the same mom and dad, she has blonde hair, green eyes.

She's light skin. Only when I show up, do you know? And so I always thought all of my life that because of my brown skin i had ruined it for everyone else so i kept that burden for a long time until i discovered that that was not the case but that was still a burden you carried and you know i mean i think i think correct me if i'm wrong but i imagine a lot of adoptive children go through this. They're like, why was I rejected, right?

Yes. And it haunts them. And it creates, I think, sometimes a hole in their life, especially in their future relationships. Where, you know, I know that with mother and father abandonment with children, that happens too. And it creates a hole and it affects their future relationships where if they're rejected in love, you know, it opens that wound again. Absolutely. Absolutely. And sometimes we sabotage that.

That was, you know, I've created. Yes. To rather than them leaving us, we create it so they will leave us and we expect it. There's a lot of psychology in that and you know i do want to prep i do want to make sure the audience realizes too though that abandonment doesn't necessarily have to be just adoption you can be abandoned through someone through death you can be abandoned by even living in a home but there isn't much love and affection and so you're abandoned so we all experience basically the same thing but abandonment crosses all racial and ethnic lines yeah i sent my kids off to

military school until they're 18 as soon as they came out of the womb we ran the car and sent them they abandoned you or did you abandon them well We keep moving and faking our death. They're teenagers now. Mari keeps calling me to come on a show and I'm not doing it. No way. You don't want her to tell the truth, right? I don't want her DNA test to connect me to whatever that was.

I was raised, Chris, that you don't air your dirty laundry. I do. This is how we work on the show. The family dirty laundry. Yeah. But I mean, they're good kids, I'm sure. I mean, it was that or send them to the Chinese organ harvesters and give me a new BMW for those little kidneys. Don't do that, folks. That's bad.

Now I'm going to get hate mail. How does the journey work when you go back and try and research this stuff it can be very hard for a lot of adoptees to get data on on who their parents were why they were put up for adoption you know what's it was like trying to go back through all this you know i love research i what i focused in on for my career was being a teacher, and I was a social studies history teacher, so I preference my answer with that, that I love research. And so one of the things, the motivating factor, of course, is discovering who truly am I. And I had a double-edged sword because I don't speak German. So therefore, I lost that language coming to the United States. But I was blessed that my adopted father had kept a shoebox full of the adoption papers, both in German and translated in English.

And so he handed that to me when I turned 25 and said, I think you're old enough now. And who I focused in on first was my birth father, because one, he spoke English, two, the military keeps excellent records. Oh, wow. Excellent records. If you're looking for ancestry, boy, military records are great. And so I, through the adoption papers, actually had his last known address. And I'll just say maybe for some of your listeners who are younger, back in my day, there wasn't the Internet in the beginning. And therefore, we dialed 411, which was information operator. Wow, I forgot about that. Yes.

And so I went through Pemberton, New Jersey. I went through the 411 asking the operator to give me the phone numbers and they'd only give three at a time. And that's how I found him through the phone. Through the phone. Oh, you know. With a 411 as they used to call it. 411. Yes. And, you know, I don't use that anymore. I used to use that and say, hey, give me the 411. But people look at me like, what is that? Hip to be square. It's supposed to mean give me the information. But, you know, nobody knows that. I think nowadays they have their own stupid lingo that they made up.

You know what it's called google google that my grandson you know that's right it is called google yeah yeah they'll ask a question and my son you know he'll look at his son my grandson is say google it dad yeah i do that to my mom all the time she'll ask me just about any banal question that and i'll just be like you know you can't google this stuff if you you know because she wants it right away you know she's yeah i need this information now and i'm like you know i'm usually you know busy with 50 000 things you can't google it mom i'm just trying to help you i don't mind helping you but you but if you want the information faster, it's available there. How long did it take you to research all of your past and your adoptive parents,

or your parents, your biological parents? How long did that take? You know, this was a great question. This was really a lifetime experience for me because I would do bits and pieces. I discovered my birth father. I do have to say I was blessed when I called him that he did not deny that I was his daughter because you can get rejected. But you know, life takes over. Chris, I got married. I had two sons. I was going to college. I was teaching, you know, you buy a house, you know, all of that. So I was setting those things aside. It was not a top priority because I needed to raise my kids. And then as

they grew, left home, actually, I did not really start back until they were teenagers. And my birth dad got in contact in the village because he still spoke german he'd been in germany for 15 years or so that i then had my lady who babysat me and she spoke nothing but german but they contacted me so i began that and took my kids actually over to Germany for a while. Oh, wow. And wandered around. Now, you said your sister still lives there. Do you have an amicable relationship with your sister, the one that said ugly things to you when you were a child?

Oh, she said ugly things to me when I returned. Oh. Yeah, that was one of the rejection pieces. She hated me being there. It was an over reflection of race. You know, I believe I believe that. Yes, because when I went back a couple of times, I've been back to Germany every other year till COVID. She did say that I was the reason that because she was given up also

my birth mother left her with the babysitter in the village after we had gone to the Kinderheim. And my birth mother left her with our babysitter in the village and went to work and never returned. Wow. Yeah, you know, I think that life's challenges, that's one of the messages in the book is we have resilience. And, you know, we, for me, it's not about anything other than me having the joy in my own life. And I'm not going to allow anyone who has hurt me to take away my joy. And so I wanted to look and research, see who I was, see who I look like. I look like my mother, but I have my dad's skin color.

Were you able to find your mom? Yes, I did. Did you talk to her? I did. She didn't talk to us, though. And in the book, I talk about our first and only, first and last and only meeting with her. That's unfortunate. Yes, but, you know, I was prepared for that because I had done my homework in regards to some mothers who do reject.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's unfortunate. You know, and you would think with a story with your sister, you would think that, you know, adopted siblings would bind together, you know, kind of a life raft and support each other. So that's interesting as well. So now what are you up to? You've written the book, you're sharing your story with people. How are you using this to empower others and influence others? One of the things that I was really on a roll before COVID, I was actually doing personal book appearances and speaking, which I dearly

like. And then I switched during COVID to Zoom. I'm pretty good with Zoom. And so I have had books, you know, talks through Zoom. And I'm kind of getting back now into podcasts, which I'm learning about. And thank you, Chris, for allowing me here. I was on Spotlight TV Network with Logan Crawford. And I also would like to branch more into personal speaking. I love speaking. And I love engaging the audience as well. There you go.

Do you do any coaching or consulting to adoptive parents, things like that? I have had parents who have adopted or fostering biracial children have called me and talked to me and I coach them. I don't push myself on them if they call. I do have a group that has asked me to come and talk to them and answer questions. So I do do that. And I'm certainly available for that. You know, we were talking before the show about how I recently, I'm not sure if it was a viral trend. Sometimes you're on TikTok and you'll see these things. You're like, that's kind of odd.

And then you realize it's like a viral trend it's something going crazy and i think it might have been a small one a wave or something i don't know but there was there was a bunch of videos i saw this is about two three days ago i spent too much time on tiktok clearly who doesn't and it's so addictive but but they were there was this back and forth you know of i guess a a white couple who had adopted a black child and i guess there was a lot of black people who were not too happy like why are white people doing this and there there were other i think black people defending the couple going, you know, I mean, hey, who cares? It's love.

If you love a child, a child's a child, right? And, you know, you just want what's best for them. And I know a lot of people, they can't have children. They want children. And sometimes it's done in service where they're just like, I would like to have another kid without that whole, you know, having breeding and, you know, nine-month thing. I really can't blame women for that.

Nine months never sounds like a lot of fun from all I've seen. But I'd skip that process if I was a man. I just feel like we're just going to skip to the good part, I guess. The good part, yeah, the fun part. Which I'm not sure the diaper part's the fun part, but that's something I have no idea. But, you know, I don't know. You know, that's probably something you could maybe help people with,

understanding, you know, the value and, you know, being adopted regardless of race and things like that. I think there's, I don't know if you have any thoughts on what people are doing over there on TikTok, maybe. I don't know anything about TikTok other than, you know, sometimes comes up, but I definitely certainly want to address that because it's not about what I talked to foster or adoptive parents who have biracial children is only that what we need to learn, which a lot of people haven't heard that term, a code switching.

And what that means is, and I'm an example of it, so I'll use myself, is coming to America way back when I came to America in 1953. So you can see how old I am. My racial children were not, we were extremely unique. In fact, the TV stations wanted us on television. We were unique. And so nowadays that's not the case. But I was grateful that I had parents, and they were both African American who adopted my sister and I, but they did not ignore the white side of me. And so what my dad, who was a very successful businessman, did during a time I grew up in a community where the KKK was a little prevalent. OK, and my dad, because he's a successful businessman, we would go to all white functions

and they taught us the etiquette and norms of what we were to do. And then I went to an all black church. My mom was president of the NAACP for a while. And so I learned the etiquette and the norms of African-American culture. And that's what code switching is. And we all do it regardless of race is knowing the environment we're in and what's acceptable and what's not. And I think with foster parents and adoptive parents who have biracial kids, what they don't want to do is just have them in their own culture.

They need to make sure that they expose them to the other culture that they have as well. Oh, wow. And that's a learning experience. Because most white people to be honest with you and chris and push back if i'm wrong but i don't think i am most white people have never been to a function where they're the only white person there yeah but we as i know i have i've been to many functions where i was the only african-amerAmerican dark-skinned person there. I fit in. I didn't have a problem with it.

I didn't even think about it. But that's what we have to do is expose our kids. There you go. Get everybody in the program. You know, it's an interesting thing. I mean, I always wanted to be adopted. I'll adopt, Chris. Thank you.

Thank you. always wanted to be adopted in fact i've always joked that i don't look like my parents and and in fact we recently took another dna test to prove it oh my mom no she actually really wanted to do an ancestry.com and and i was joking evidently i took back when 23andMe came out about 10 years ago, they sent me a complimentary influencer copy. And so I took a DNA test, and she was very bent out of shape at the results of it, because some of the countries that I was showing I was coming from were different than hers. And so the running joke for 10 years has been like, I definitely was adopted. And my family had a bit of dysfunction to them they're good people trying to do their best but they're really fucked up wait did i say that out loud you know they're families and so the joke has always been that

i've been adopted and she said we you know we didn't adopt you and i'm like no i got switched to birth i was one of those 70s i was one of those 60s kids where some nurse was evil and switching babies. She was smoking and she dropped her cigarettes. Handed the wrong one. She was smoking there in the room there in the hospital. Yes, yes. Switched the name tags wrong. And I'm like, yeah, that's what happened to me, I'm pretty sure.

Because I seem to be smarter than everyone else in this room. But yeah, we finally took an ancestry. Unfortunately, I'm not adopted. No, I did the 23andMe. And I had done it before I actually had even gone to Germany. I was just doing my research. But I did the 23andMe. And my grandmother, who is my mom's my

birth mother's mother she was Ashkenazi Jew and so during World War II the Nazi Germans came and got her and put her in a concentration camp and she died there but 23andMe when I did mine, I was a quarter Ashkenazi Jew, a Jewish, which was, and I felt really proud of all the sections of, you know, my DNA that came through. 51% European, you know, had a little bit of African in me and all of that. And I'm like, I'm just a walking world representative. We did the full test on the rest of her family. And we can't figure out why some of our family, evidently their DNA test came back that they're really stupid. No, I'm just kidding. Just being funny.

Yes, okay. We didn't have to do a DNA test to find that out. Yeah, yeah. See how I set that up? There you go. But I do want to say, Chris, that for people who are searching for their ancestry, 23andMe DNA, looking into it is helpful. I know that my birth dad, his kids submitted his 23andMe DNA. They didn't know anything about me. But having done it, it did verify, too, that, hey, I am his daughter.

So you can do some research if people are interested in their heritage. Was there any chance? I imagine with those things, you can maybe find grandparents. Any chance you were able to find the grandparents yourself? I didn't find grandparents, but I do have, with 23andMe, you know how they give you alerts? And there are, so there's distant cousins and that kind of thing throughout Europe. Yes, I did. And also through Pemberton, New Jersey, back on my birth dad's side as well.

Yes. I don't communicate with them, but it was kind of interesting to see. Yeah, I've started getting pop-ups from that ancestry, and I'm like, I really don't want to know about more of my family. I know too much. I was going to say that, you know, what what's interesting too for me is you know when i wrote when i was writing the book because i didn't set out to write a book actually it's only when telling friends about oh i discovered this or do you know i have another sibling i

discovered you know they're like you need to write a book. But what I'm saying about the book is it's only 142 pages. Because I feel like our attention span is not that long. And I just focused in on my experience through that part of life. There you go. I had a business partner whose girlfriend and I think later fiance was adopted. And she was trying really hard to find it. But it was the USA records and there's some sort of policy of being closed off or you can't find your person because they don't want you to find them. Kind of like my situation with my kids in the military school. You don't want you to find them. Kind of like my situation with my kids in the military school. You don't want them finding you, huh? No, no. I fake my death at least twice to make sure that we've covered our tracks.

So, my name's really Bob Smith. Or wait, maybe that's the way I'm changing it next week. That's probably a lot of Bob Smiths around. You don't want teenagers to find you. Yeah, you know know it's interesting because when I was in the village I was grateful when I first went to the village and it is a village truly okay I'm not talking about a little town it was a

true small village and the older people I was grateful for the older people who came running out Uta Uta because that's my German name you know coming to hug me and everything so that was village and the older people i was grateful for the older people who came running out uta uta because that's my german name you know coming to hug me and everything so that was a time that i was grateful that they lived long enough you know to validate that i had lived there you know and that they knew yes so they remembered you from when you were two then yes yes actually yeah from from when i was born and brought to the village because my birth mother lived in the village when I was born. I was born in the hospital in Frankfurt, Germany, but brought to the village. Yes, they did. And, you know,

it was kind of interesting. Our lifestyle is so different in America because in the village, they would see me walking, just walking, you know, around and say, Uta, Uta. And so I would come up and have tea and go in any, anybody's house. I didn't know who they were, you know, in the United States, you'd probably get killed. I do that now. I just walk in. You do that now. My name's Uta. You are a brave. Do you remember me from a child? I don't do it in Texas though. Yeah. My sister lives in Texas. Yeah.'t do it in Texas, though. Yeah. My sister lives in Texas. Yeah, but you know, Texas, you're probably going to get shot.

Yes, yes. Walking to someone's house is probably the place where you get shot. Yes, yes. Up here in Utah, everyone leaves the doors open anyway. At least they used to up until about 10 years ago. California, they're not going to shoot you they're

probably gonna offer you like a zucchini shake or something like that and you know what you're sharing right now is a part of code switching chris you know what i mean you are telling me how you know the difference of the culture in texas versus the difference in the culture in utah yeah and so that's code switching. You know what behavior is accepted. If you walk into someone's house in California, they're just going to say, are you here for the yoga? Yeah, or the marijuana. One or the other.

Or the marijuana, yeah. That's California for you. Hey, yeah. Were you going to the beach with us? What's going on? So this has been very insightful. Give us your final pitch out on people to order the book and get in touch with you on your website. I am, again, the book is Too Brown to Keep, A Search for Love, Forgiveness, and Healing.

And if you Google my name, Judy Fambro-Billingsley, or Judy Billingsley, you will find me on my site. Also, my book is available, not only soft copy but also audio um on amazon.com there you go amazon.com i self-published my book which is nowadays is getting common for people it is very common actually yeah the ai is making even commoner like people are like really going out of control with the ai so they are I didn't have AI. I was busy hiring people to edit my book. Yeah, yeah. They've got these people that are just bombing the AI thing.

It's going out of style. It's pretty insane. They're just making books. They're hijacking books with AI. I saw Kara Swisher's book when it came out recently, and she had a bio coming out that I think she self wrote and so they hijacked all of her they hijacked her book with fake AI bios and so you couldn't you know they flooded the zone so people were like which ones her book and I's are you serious

are you serious i'm serious it's a heart attack i just said wow i just had frank faguzzi on the show with his book long road i think it's called um and he said that they they had to start getting with he's kind of targeted because he's an ex-fbi agent direct he's an ex-assistant director to the FBI. And so he gets kind of targeted by groups. And he's very vocal online. And so they, you know, China, he's not, let's just say he's not traveling to China or Russia anytime soon. And he's the assistant director of the FBI. You don't make a lot of friends, evidently. At least not with the bad people.

He was talking about how his book got hijacked and some people have copied it and resold it and I guess they're selling it without, they're selling it with the cover but nothing inside of it. It's basically a scam book instead of getting it with Amazon. So there's a lot of weird stuff going on.

But yeah, self-publishing has really become a thing. Yeah, yeah, it has. It has. Do we get your dot coms as we go out? Any socials you want people to look you up on? No, they can just Google me and Facebook. You can do Facebook, which is jfb.author. But with the Google, you'll click Instagram.

You'll click those sites. I'm sorry, I have them sitting here, but should I say them out loud? Yeah, you can. Sure. Okay. You're certainly welcome to email me at Judy by 10, J U D Y B I 10. The number 10 at gmail.com. And my website is Judy fan, bro.

Billingsley.com. And Instagram is fan, broroBillingsley.com and Instagram is FambroBillingsley and I'm on Facebook, of course. There you go. The old Facebook there, Mark Zuckerberg. Yes. I think that's kind of old school. I know even though I'm retired, I still work at schools. I coach new administrators, principals and vice principals. And I'm there and the young people, they're like, Facebook? No.

They're into Twitter and what's that, X? Oh yeah, that's the old Twitter. Yes, and TikTok. And so it's kind of interesting. So I know my audience. And so it's kind of interesting. So I know my audience, okay? It's not too interesting.

There you go. You got to know your audience. That's definitely a thing. Yes. So it's been wonderful to have you on. Thank you very much for coming to the show. We really appreciate it. And thank you for having me.

I appreciate being here. Thank you. There you go. So to our audience, order the book where fine books are sold. To Brown to Keep, A Search for Love, Forgiveness, and Healing by Judy Fambro Billingsley. You can find it wherever fine books are sold. Thanks for tuning in.

Be good to each other. Stay safe. We'll see you guys next time.