The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Torn: Overcoming the Psychological Challenges Post-ACL Injury by Keagen Hadley

Episode Date: January 18, 2023

Torn: Overcoming the Psychological Challenges Post-ACL Injury by Keagen Hadley Have you experienced an ACL injury? This book is focused on assisting people experiencing psychological issues as a result of these injuries. This book will give you a holistic overview of the tools needed to manage stress effectively and deal with the injuries! These concerns, if left untreated, could lead to various diagnoses such as depression and anxiety. You will learn how to deal with these difficulties by utilizing a variety of skills centered around acceptance, mindfulness, and their unique values to provide a better plan for dealing with their injury-related trauma. If you are ready, then order your copy of Torn: Overcoming the Psychological Challenges Post-ACL Injury, and start your healing process today!

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready. Get ready. Strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times, because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. Chris Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com, thechrisvossshow.com.

Hey, and now a man who's just here for the brain bleed. That's usually what I'm here for, guys. Welcome to the show. I'm your host, Chris VossShow.com Hey, and now a man who's just here for the brain bleed. That's usually what I'm here for, guys. Welcome to the show. I'm your host, Chris Voss. Be sure to refer to the show, of course, your family, friends, and relatives. You know the Chris Voss Show is a family that loves you, but doesn't judge you. At least not as harshly as your mom does. Now go clean your room.

Anyway, guys, YouTube.com, 4Chance Chris Voss, Goodreads.com, 4Chance Chris Voss. All of our big LinkedIn groups, LinkedIn newsletter, all those crazy places we're at on the interwebs. Today, we have an amazing gentleman on the show. Not only is he a doctor, but he's an author. We're going to talk about his latest book called Torn, Overcoming the Psychological Challenges Post-ACL Injury. It came out May 6, 2022. Keegan Hadley is on the show with us today, and he's going to be talking to us about that

and some of the other things he does as a doctor professional, if you will. He's a doctor of occupational therapy, a psychiatric and neurological clinical researcher, and an Amazon bestseller author who specializes in using psychological treatments such as ACT with clients. He's passionate about joint health, the psychology of injury, and entrepreneurship. Welcome to the show, Keegan. How are you? I'm fantastic. How are you, Chris? There you go. There you go. Glad to have you. So let's talk about your dot-coms.

Where plugs you want people to look you up on the interwebs, please. Yep. You can find me at KeeganAdley.com or TheACLTherapist.com as well as Instagram or LinkedIn. I'm pretty active at TheACLTherapist. There you go. There you go. So what made you decide to write this book on ACL therapy? Yeah. So I played football for a long time

through college and then briefly after. And as a result of that, I tore both of my ACLs. And I found that I actually struggled more with the mental side of those recoveries than the physical rehabilitation. That'll definitely give you a first thing. Is that what made you want to become a doctor or were you on you want to become a doctor or were you on your track to become a doctor before that um i knew i wanted to be in medicine i just wasn't really um wasn't really sure where so i know i had spent time obviously playing football um you know in the pt room but i also have a background of struggling with um you know my mental health as well so i knew either psychology or physical therapy likely was the way I was going to go.

I just wasn't 100% sure. And what is the ACL tear? What is that like for those of us just to lay a ground floor definition? Yeah, so it's a tear of the anterior cruciate ligament in the knee. It's the knee that prevents your femur from moving forward over your tibia. So essentially, it's like the brakes of a car, essentially. It's kind of one way to look at it, but for your knee joint, obviously. So yeah, and I tore both of those doing kind of the same type of movement, but one going left and one going right. So I tore

each one once, unfortunately. Ouch, ouch. That's not fun. I mean, I know in the NFL, in different places, a lot of sports that this happens. So you've worked in the field of specializing, I guess, in these ACLs for quite some time. Yeah. Yep, yep. Out of, you know, more so necessity because I found that, you know, even when I was a collegiate athlete and I had a lot of resources as far as rehab goes, there was no one really there to talk through the emotional or psychological side of these injuries, the loss of self-identity, you know, the loss of confidence, you know, the poor coping mechanisms that these individuals usually, you know, start to use because coping, especially as an athlete,

you know, we usually use our sport for all type of coping. So if that's kind of taken away from you, you start to abuse substances, you start to make poor relationship decisions and, you know, this, that, and the other thing. There you go. And you probably make poor choices that maybe affect your recovery. Yes. Yeah, certainly. And then choices that affect not only your recovery but, you know, far-reaching aspects of your life as well in many cases.

There you go. So what do you hope to achieve with the book? What do you hope readers come away with that will read it? Yeah. So essentially, it's kind of an introduction. It's not necessarily a how-to because each individual is a little different, but it's an introduction to acceptance conclusion just from my physical injuries. I definitely don't learn that quickly. I had, as a result of my second knee injury, I started to abuse substances and then made some poor relationship decisions that led me to becoming in a relationship with someone who was a severe alcoholic. And I endured a lot of emotional abuse due to that. Wow. Yeah. Culminating in me being uh suicidal for a time uh wow so because of that

that that was the situation that kind of led me to you know i need help i need to make sure i'm altering the trajectory of my life so i found i tried to you know go into therapy and that's when i actually got probably the most frustrated as i wasn't really seeing the um you know progress that i wanted to from traditional cognitive behavioral therapy, scoured the internet and found acceptance and commitment therapy and was lucky enough to, you know, get transferred to a therapist that practiced that framework. And I started to slowly see progress. I started to slowly creep out of that hole. And so what I'm looking to do essentially is just provide a resource to let people know that there is a way to deal with what they're going through. And I'm

also working with a number of other professionals in the physical therapy or athletic training realm that where they can provide classes to implement these type of interventions, you know, on the spot so that your athletes aren't necessarily blindsided by these kinds of injuries, you know, on the spot so that your athletes aren't necessarily blindsided by these kinds of injuries and go down the same type of path I did. So it's interesting. I mean, you're talking about dealing with the physical aspect of the injury. And of course, that in itself is a thing. And then the mental health part and keeping your mental health correct. And that's probably a good healthy balance in order to get the best recovery, I think. Yeah, certainly, because you can't pry apart.

Everyone always seems to want to. I mean, you talk about physical health or mental health and just kind of split it apart. But, I mean, there's only one of us. So, I mean, they both kind of need to be taken care of simultaneously. You can't only fix yourself physically and just leave the emotional well-being just out in the dirt, so to speak. That's very true because I left the mental health thing a long time ago. Everybody knows that who listens to the show. That horse left the barn, but I still got the physical

going, at least for now, knock on wood. So I try and stick to one or the other. Yep. It's better than nothing. It's better than nothing. It's better than nothing. It works for me. I don't know.

It's probably you should read your book. That way I can get some balance in my life. Yeah, people don't realize how important these things are. And it's interesting to me how you can talk about how people don't realize how important these things are. It's interesting to me how you can talk about how people's lives can really change over an injury. I've had a few people that have been injured in motorcycle accidents and stuff. It's kind of interesting how there can be a

compounding of different problems they get themselves into, even relationships they get themselves into. Sometimes they end up with a caretaker girlfriend who wants to take care of them but they were breaking up with that girlfriend when they got their injury and all sorts of problems of needing help and stuff. So it's good to help people get in the mind frame. We noted in the bio that you believe in using the ACT or the Act With Clients.

Talk to us a little bit about what that is. Yeah. So many people have usually heard of cognitive behavioral therapy. It's kind of like a close cousin, I guess is what you'd call it, to acceptance and commitment therapy. ACT or acceptance and commitment therapy was founded by Dr. Stephen Hayes. He has a bunch of books on the subject. He's been studying it since like the 70s, 60s or 70s or something. So it's got a lot of research behind it. Essentially, there's one fundamental difference between CBT and ACT, and that is essentially what you're looking to do.

So CBT looks to minimize the symptoms, whereas ACT more so gives you the tools necessary to function at an optimal level, no matter kind of what comes your way, because it's kind of preparing for the inevitable. It's, you know, to have a full and fulfilling life, there's going to be difficulties that come at you and ACT kind of prepares you for those types of situations. And it does that through the six different pillars or foundational skills, which is diffusion, acceptance, self as a perspective, mindfulness, purposeful action, and values. There you go. And it's good life advice on top of that. My mom had both of her knees replaced with the fake knees.

And wow, there's a lot that goes in. You just really don't realize how much you rely on your knees. Yeah. For anyone that hasn't had a joint injury, it's pretty much astounding how much you actually use your joints when you don't think about it. I mean, it's pretty crazy. Note to self, quit using joints. You just get injured already. So I'm going to stick with that.

I think I've done too much of that already, actually. But, no, I started working out, got a hernia. Oh, boy. It's one of those things where you're like, well, okay, maybe working out isn't as good for you. No, it actually is, people. I'm just being funny. So, you know, what are some other topics we need to tease out from the book that people can be enticed by? Yeah, so essentially one thing I dive into a little bit is kind of the the cultures uh i guess it's a conventional wisdom that you're never supposed to you know feel poorly i mean if you're if some if you're not feeling well you know there's something wrong with you and i'd like to

i talk about that in the book a little bit that you know that's um you know a part of life you'd be more worried about someone if they lost someone they love and they weren't bothered by it, you know, stuff like that. So it's just preparing yourself for those kinds of things. And that's kind of the really hurting over something like I was over the, you know, the loss of my football career, you usually find something you're very passionate within that pain, but you have to be willing to sit with those feelings in order to find those things. That my whole, you know, business, you know, entrepreneur side has come from that. So, I mean, if people are willing to kind of look at what has caused them pain and what they have learned from it in the past, a lot of times you can find something you're supremely passionate about.

And, you know, you could work every hour of the day and still be, you know, have a lot of energy coming from it. Definitely. You know, when I, it wasn't an ACL, but, you know, a hernia tear from lifting weights, I, for the first time in my life, I started going to the gym every day, 54, 53. And for a year and a half, I went religiously every day. Maybe there was a day I missed every now and then, but pretty much every day. And I would go work out for two,

three hours, and I was doing just amazing things with my body. And then you injure yourself, and it's really depressing. It's even more depressing because you did it to yourself. It's one thing if you get in a car wreck, and I'm not minimizing that, but you didn't really do it to yourself. I did mine to myself. And you see it from that lens that sometimes it's kind of depressing at first because you're just like, but I've learned to do what you said. I've learned to find another outlet to think positively,

and it's just drooling in the corner and looking at the wall. And that seems to work for me now because that's about all I can do. But until surgery. I'm just kidding. People know that's what I do anyway. I was doing before, long before that. Just drooling, looking at the wall. That's pretty much the state I'm in.

That's a pastime. Yeah, that's pretty much the state I'm in 24-7 when they don't prop me up on the show, put me in front of the mic, and they're like, dance, dance. I'm like, okay. So this is really good. This is helpful for people, and it's got real-life sort of things. Probably you can apply it to anybody who's had a major in the industry. And, you know, it deals with the depression of it.

You no longer can do the thing you love. Like, I can't go to the gym anymore. I really was falling in love with that. I know it's weird to say, but I'd really made a commitment to that. And I was proud of the fact that I was going every day for the first time in all my life and, and, uh, keeping with that discipline. And then to be knocked off, you know, it's been hard to deal with until I can get back. And even then, I don't know if I can fully get back. I'm going to have to be careful. I think with ACLs, once you tear one, you've got to be careful not to tear it again, right? Don't you have a higher propensity to re-tear it?

Yeah. I mean, they're still doing a lot of research. It's kind of, there's not like a, this causes an ACL thing. That's why ACLs are frustrating is because you, you likely, like I did, and like many athletes have done everything, you know, you were told by the strength coaches, you know, just your coaches in general for years and it just happens to you. So, I mean, there, there's no real,

they can't iron it out to one specific thing, which is frustrating. Yeah, it definitely is and and you'd think that uh i don't know we'd have better things to do for this but i say it happens a lot i know in football yeah because football is such a crazy sport and it's easy to get weight on that knee in the wrong way and you're you're running a million miles an hour hitting up against brick wall people that are running 100 miles an hour, and you're going to tear something. That's just how it goes. Yeah, football and women's soccer is kind of, you know,

a bulk of who reaches out and who I end up working with, yeah. Yeah, like probably soccer and rugby too, huh? Sounds crazy. Crazy days and times. So I noticed on your website you have some potential courses you're working on, things you're going to be putting out, I think, coming up. Talk to us a little bit about what you're planning to do there. Yeah, so I'm currently working with a number of other researchers on how to implement this at a wider scale. Because obviously I love to help people, and I have a really hard time turning people away.

But that being said, there's only so many hours in a day. And I realized that early on. And that was frustrating to me because I don't want to, I know what it feels like in that situation and I never want to turn people away. So I've been working with some physical therapists who are doing the research in order to implement a framework, um, to provide to, you know, uh, schools or other, um, you know, facilities that are going through athletics just in general. So if they do have an athlete that's hurt, they can go through kind of this protocol of this is how you start to implement acceptance and commitment therapy into their practice. You know, instead of just going over the physical things,

they can start to implement that as well. And they'll probably also be like a rudimentary start to where they get all athletes acclimated as well. So that they're not just jumping on this as soon as they get hurt, you know, an ounce of prevention is, you know, worth a lot more than just jumping on it after the fact.

So that's what we're working on, and we're hoping to have something this year would be fantastic. But I hate to overpromise. Is there a way that people can reach out to you, work with you, consult with you? I don't know if you have a doctor's office set up somewhere. Yeah, just shoot me a message on Instagram is where a lot of people have reached out to me. I'm active on there as far as fielding questions and things. I'm not on there as much as I should be, but I'll always respond to someone.

There you go. There you go. I mean, I imagine people have questions. It's a good book maybe for kids in their teens who suffer an injury. There's lots of these people that they you know, they're aspiring athletes, football, soccer, whatever the case may be in high school or college. And then their professional careers are probably ruined because of ACL. And so it sounds like you talked some about prevention

and trying to make sure that people don't do this wrong. Is diet an issue with acl is is it does it help if you take more muscle no feeding formulas and proteins stuff yeah so um bmi there there is a you know a decently strong correlation obviously it's not on all cases but you're you're at a higher likelihood if you have a higher bmi to tell your acl than someone with a lower bmi um that's something i just did another um lit review the end of 2022 to make sure i was um you know on the on the um getting the most recent data anyways and i did find that that was uh linked it's not for sure, obviously, because the study groups weren't very large.

It's not like these were 1,000 tears or anything like that. But they did show some light correlation to that, yeah. Yeah, it's crazy, man. And I suppose small tears lead to big tears. It's just one of those things. And then usually with ACLs, do they heal up, or do you kind of notice them when, it's, it's just one of those things. And then, uh, usually with ACLs, do they heal up or do you kind of notice them when, you know, like some people notice broken bones when it gets cold or rainy or damp? Does, uh, how well do those heal up? Yeah, I'm, I'm presently in North Dakota and

the biggest issue for me is I've, um, I, you have to train differently, have to train differently to make sure you, because it kind of feels like you're getting a leg transplant almost. Your leg never really feels quite the same. You have to really focus pretty much all your training on strengthening certain movements and things. And then you can get back to being normal. But it takes a while. But the one thing that does still bother me is I live in North Dakota, as I said, and we were just at negative 30 degrees. And now we were at roughly 30 degrees this week.

And I had a lot of just aches because of the weather changes. So you do still get those kinds of things. Anytime you get cut open like that, you have some lingering issues with nerves and those kinds of things. My lobotomy still does that whenever it gets cold. Yeah, I've heard those are bad with that. Yeah, but the nice thing is I smile and I forget about it. It's all gone away. So it's a beautiful thing.

I mean, I recommend it to everybody. So people are like, does he have a lobotomy? You just had a bunch of people Google that. I did. That's what I do. We make our own money getting people to Google stuff. So Google buying gold. No, I'm just kidding.

So there you go. But, yeah, I imagine people are going to have long-term issues, and so they need your book more than ever because to have long-term issues and so they need your book uh more than ever because you know there's long-term recovery long-term you know experiential with it uh i know it's here you got a free uh you can download a free diffusion guide on your website what's a diffusion guide yep so essentially the um when i talked about myself slowly starting to climb out of the hole I was in, the issue I had that was very difficult for me to get over was cognitively fused thoughts. So essentially, I'll just give my own as an example.

I always thought when I was having issues with mental illness, and then that was only compounded by my physical injuries, the thought, I am broken. And then that's a cognitively fused thought because you are not broken, obviously. So the slight difference. But you're not. That was only before the lobotomy. That was before the lobotomy, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, every girlfriend has told me I'm broken, so I just accepted it. I own it.

That's fair. That's a different conversation. You can do a book on that one. Yeah, that's an excellent. But essentially it's going from that to realizing that I'm only having thoughts or feelings that I'm broken and giving yourself that perspective to evaluate that thought and deem whether that is actually going towards your values, which again, was another one of those pillars. So, yeah. There you go. You know, I, I, uh, my biggest thing that I've dealt with and getting the injury with the hernia was anger at myself.

Like you fucking idiot. You knew that was hurting. You kept pushing it. And, you know, I, I thought it was, you know, I was working out my abs and and i thought oh you know it's just okay you know you're doing muscle tears you're it's hurting but it was really hurting and i was like really just like oh yeah push it through and and uh i didn't realize you know i had like a month to stop i really it took time to to tear it fully open um but uh and i was having pain and it was like, dude, just stop. But I'm like, no, this is what you've done all your life.

And so the anger and depression at yourself is just like, you're such a fucking idiot. At least that's my mental conversation, because that's every day, regardless of what I do. And my dogs look at me with

the same sort of thing they go you're such an idiot and we're dogs um we lick our bums uh and smell each other's bums and you're an idiot uh but no it's it's the depression's real the i mean experience of the mental game that fucks you up and yeah like i say i i worked really hard for a year and a half and then to watch it all go to hell, you know, I probably can't lift what I was lifting and my legs and stuff. And you're just like, God, I just wasted a whole year of my life. And, you know, you can really spin yourself out if you're not careful. Yeah. Again, if you don't have those skills in place to lean back on, again, because you were probably using uh you know your newfound coping

mechanism of working out you know very rigorously to get rid of all your stress and stuff so again when that goes away and if you hadn't built any other you know infrastructure there to hold that those you know issues that you had i mean it's just going to come crashing down and it'll cascade into all other aspects of of your life. Most definitely. Most definitely. Well, anything more we need to tease out on what you do and how you do it? No, just happy to help people get through these,

you know, walk with them through these issues and be there, you know, when no one else is. What else do you see yourself doing for the future? Are you going to stay in the ACL sort of area? area do you you plan on branching out to other ones imagine there's plenty of business in this yeah certainly there's plenty in this but uh that being said i have my own kind of um the next challenge which every time i go to the doctor now um they remind me that i'm on the

expedited list for a total knee surgery just because of the damage that was done to my leg. Oh, really? Wow. Yeah. So I'm focusing on just training and essentially coming up with a blueprint for avoiding total knee surgery is kind of the hope. Yeah. I can't blame you, man. My mom, like I said, had double knee surgery, and I came and took care of her through both of them um it was it was hell it was it was hell for her especially because she was in her

uh 70s so you know you don't retire at all it's hard to heal um man if if you you've got to keep your weight right um you know it's you definitely want to be skinny when you do it because the less weight you can have on those things and they and they want you moving like right away like they don't want you laying in the bed like i was like okay well just lay in that bed for a week or two like i would and uh then get up walk around and they're like no no no you're not doing that no we gotta you gotta move those things we gotta get the joints going and the blood going. I guess if you don't do that, you're going to... Yeah, it'll lock up. Essentially, they would have redone all that.

Then you need to start moving it immediately to regain anything you might have lost. It's definitely here on the clock as soon as you get out of there. Then anytime she bangs it or she thinks she's hurt it again, she gets really upset and I can't blame her. I mean, it was, it was hell to recover from, and especially at 70.

I mean, that's why, that's why I got my knee surgeries out of the way. I did them at 30, so I don't have to, I got that out of the way. No, I'm just kidding.

I didn't do that. That's what we do here on the show. I did get a little bottom. We done though. That, that helps too. And the plate in the head. They just did it all at the same time. I don't know if they did it or not. They might have.

What's really cool about the plate in my head too from NOM was basically it works with the Moderna booster shot that I've gotten four of now. And do I still have the... Wow, I still have the band-aid on from a week and a half ago.

Wow, that's weird. I just went to see us and everything, and it's still stuck on. When did Band-Aids start working that well? Holy shit. Maybe I shouldn't tear this off. Maybe it'll leak out. Anyway, that's weird, man. When did, Band-Aids are the only thing that works in life anymore, I guess.

That's the only thing that's improved in the last six years. Yeah, I never go back there, so I didn't know there was a band-aid there. But, yeah, between the play in my head and the signals I get from Bill Gates and stuff, I can call Elon, too, with the fourth booster. You can plug stuff into it. You can Twitter from it, yeah, with the Elon Musk. I made it so you can Twitter from it. You just yell at it you

know when you're drunk or something and makes the typical tweets so this is really good and and i think it's important for the mental health game that you put in because part of the physical health and how you feel and being depressed probably affects you know how you heal and the quality of how you heal and your body healing and And, of course, getting into, you know, I quit drinking two or three years ago. Just from, I was just tired of the hangovers. And I started doing veganism and I started listening to my body. And I could just tell that, like, three days were just like, it would drag me. It would just, I would just feel the dehydration.

I would feel the bloat that you get from your body over storing water because you dehydrated it. I just get tired of the game with it. It's like, okay, and you're just a couple hours away. But yeah, if you're injured, the last thing you want to be doing is drinking alcohol or taking drugs or different things. There's people that get stuck on opioids.

I was going to say that's a big one, especially for this particular population because many times they're providing those things to you right after surgery, if you're going through surgery. So that's definitely a concern. Yeah. I can see you could do really well with a lot of courses and books, maybe for high school coaches and college coaches, people that are training these folks. Because I imagine that's where a lot of these injuries take place like yours, you know, people playing sports and trying to have fun with it.

And, yeah, you end up going the wrong way. Yeah, certainly. And, I mean, you have a lot of those people. I mean, many high schools don't even have a athletic trainer so it's it's definitely getting to the people who are dealing with the athletes the most and in high school i mean those are usually just the coaches um there's not a lot of staff uh generally with high schools and things like that but that's where it needs to be otherwise um you're catching the athletes too late um yeah you know likely so preferably you can educate them on how to better better uh cover stuff like that i've seen those uh knee

plates that people wear and i don't know if they're for an injury that already happened but you'll see like neat they're like they're like knee sleeves they put on i don't know if that has helped prevent acls or if those are more of a post injury. Are they like a neoprene? Yeah, they're like a neoprene scuba sort of thing that I'll see people put over their knees, slides up their leg and maybe a cushion or something like that on there. A lot of times there presently isn't a brace that they've shown statistically prevents ACL injuries. That being said, there's two reasons that one might wear it.

A, you know, if the surgeon says to you, because again, they're, they're kind of the boss, but B, it could provide some, you know, confidence if they're just not sure, but I don't particularly like that answer. But the last one is the sleeve that you're talking about specifically, they make ones that have been shown to you know prevent against mcl or lcl injuries which are the the ligaments on the inside and outside of your knee the acl crosses in the middle with the pcl but that those those particular sleeves you're talking about can help but not not for the acl so there you go i had something and i still kind of have it but it's a growth underneath the the end of my right kneecap

and so it sticks out slaughter yeah osgood slaughter's disease yeah that's it i grew i kind of just grew out of it and into it but it was giving me problems when i was in uh junior high or high school now it doesn't bother me but it still does stick out, I think, a little bit. Yeah, those can be really frustrating. It's not most, well, I wouldn't say most, but some people aren't as lucky and they need more assistance than that, but you just might be stubborn enough to make it work, I guess. Yeah, I just became fat and old.

And so my body was like, okay, well, we give up. So there you go. Well, it's been insightful to have you on, Keegan. And thanks for the insight and stuff. Give us your.com so people can find you

on the interwebs, please. Yep, keeganhadley.com or probably easier to spell, the acltherapist.com. acltherapist.com. And you can find them on linkedin every place else order up the book wherever fine books are sold folks but don't go to those uh fine selling bookstores stay away the alleyway ones i got mugged last week and one um torn overcoming the psychological

advantage or let me recut that torn overcomingorn, Overcoming the Psychological Challenges Post-ACL Injury, May 6, 2022 by Keegan Hadley. Order it up wherever fine books are sold. Thanks for tuning in. Be good to each other. Stay safe. And we'll see you guys next time. And that should have us out, man.