The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Undaunted: Overcoming Doubts and Doubters by Kara Goldin Interview

Episode Date: November 18, 2020

Undaunted: Overcoming Doubts and Doubters by Kara Goldin Interview WALL STREET JOURNAL Bestselling Business Book Don’t let anyone crush your dreams! Whatever you want to achieve, no matter how hard it might seem, you owe it to yourself to read this book. Undaunted will inspire you to move past your fears and defy the doubters. It doesn’t matter whether you feel confident; it matters what you actually do. Author Kara Goldin turned her unsweetened flavored water into one of the most successful beverage businesses of our time and has been named one of InStyle’s Badass 50, Fast Company’s Most Creative People in Business, Fortune’s Most Powerful Women Entrepreneurs and EY Entrepreneur of the Year for Northern California. Undaunted is a rare opportunity to gain insights and proven advice unlike anything you’ll find in the conventional business press. Kara combines real honest stories from her life with observations that might just change how you think about your own. Whether you want to get healthy, start a company, break an addiction, find a new career or just grow in life, Undaunted will inspire you to just go for it and help you find the courage to get there. As she started to achieve her goals, Kara found herself being called “fearless”, “confident” and even “unstoppable,” but nothing could be further from the truth. In Undaunted she shares real stories about her own fears and doubts, the challenges she encountered and what she did to overcome them to eventually build a great business and a life she loves. Her secret? Be Undaunted. Deal with your fears. Move forward despite uncertainty. Turn criticism into motivation. Just go for it! Setbacks will come, but Kara shows you can learn from failures and frustrations and keep advancing toward your true purpose. What if not having “the right” credentials or vast industry experience was the secret to making things happen? And what if we didn’t let our fear of failure stop us? Part autobiography, part business memoir and lots of insights on self-development, Undaunted offers inspiring stories that impart lessons that any reader can apply to their own path. While most motivational business and life books try to offer quick fixes, Undaunted focuses on long-term success, showing you how to take control of breaking down barriers and moving forward. Undaunted won’t solve your problems and challenges. You will. But it will help you see through other’s experiences that it’s possible to do so. Accept your fears, but decide to be Undaunted.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms and legs inside the vehicle at all times. Because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. Chris Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com, thechrisvossshow.com. Hey, we have a very exciting guest on the show today. I think you're going to be very impressed, and you're going to want to see the video version of this. So what you're going to want to do is go to this free service they have online.

It's at youtube.com forward slash Chris Voss for an unlimited time. This is a special offer we're doing right now. Unlimited time. You can go to youtube.com forward slash Chris Voss. You can subscribe to the show. And you can hit this bell notification. And when you do it, it will touch you in a way that will send a field of warmth over your whole body and just make you feel fulfilled.

And it'll probably only last for like five seconds, but do it anyway because, you know, it'll make you better looking and, you know, might make your Tinder profile come out better for other people. I don't know. I don't know. Just hit the bell notification button, will you please?

That's all I'm asking. Don't make me cry. Don't make me beg. I'm just kidding. Anyway, guys, go to goodreads.com for just Chris Voss. Hit that bell notification. There's no bell notification on Goodreads. Go to goodreads.com for just Chris Voss and also go to the CVPN, chrisfosspodcastnetwork.com. You can see all nine podcasts that are over there. You're going to see this show appear on several of those broadcasts as well. Also, go to facebook.com forward slash three, The Chris Voss Show.

The Chris Voss Show on facebook.com. I'm just cracking up over the whole cry thing. There you go. The most brilliant author that we have on today, because we only book the most brilliant authors. I mean, anybody who's not brilliant, we're like, sorry, you're just going to have to go to another podcast. But the most brilliant author we have on today is Kara Golden. She's the founder and CEO of Hint Incorporated. You may have heard of her.

She's got her wonderful new book out called Undaunted, Overcoming Doubts and Doubters. Kara is the CEO of Hint, as I mentioned. She's best known for its award-winning Hint Water, the leading unsweetened flavored water. She has received numerous accolades, including being named EY Entrepreneur of the Year 2017, Northern California, one of InStyle's 2019 Badass 50, Fast Company's Most Creative People in Business, WWD, Beauty Incorporated's Feel Good Force, and Fortune's Most Powerful Women Entrepreneurs. The Huffington Post listed her as one of the six disruptors in business alongside Mae Burnham, Steve Jobs, and Mark Zuckerberg. Previously, Kara was VP of Shopping and E-Commerce at America Online, where she helped grow the shopping and e-commerce business to over $1 billion in revenue.

She's an active speaker and writer. In 2017, she launched Unstoppable with Kara Golden, a podcast where she interviews founders, entrepreneurs, and disruptors across various industries. Kara's first book, Undaunted, published by Harper Leadership, has just been released in October, and she lives in the Bay Area with her family. You can follow her on her website, karagolden.com, and all social channels at Kara Golden. Welcome to the show, Kara. How are you? I'm very well. Thank you for having me.

Thank you for coming on. I'm just, we're sitting here drinking your Hint Water Fabulous Beverage. A little blackberry there. I've got my cherry here. Oh, there you go. There you go. Just as an aside, how many flavors are there of this so we sometimes do special flavors in addition but it's about 26 flavors oh that enough that well

it i guess so if you say it's enough uh it's enough you know it's interesting in the in the beverage industry it's uh most people who work, here's a little bit of trivia. Most people who have like worked in the beverage industry for forever will tell you that if you are like a Diet Coke drinker, like I was, or you drink vitamin water, then you have a flavor or a brand that you're sort of stuck on. Like, you know, Diet Coke doesn't, you don't go and like have Coke, right? Like you have Diet Coke.

That's what you do every single day. And vitamin water, like if formula 50 was your thing, then that's all you drink all the time. And so what's fascinating about our brand that's really unique is that the consumer wants choice and wants selection. Like like they like blackberry but if we're out of blackberry they'll like oh yeah i'll do cherry you know but that is very unusual for a beverage like to to be able to have consumers that want that choice which is there you go really really well you gotta you gotta got to change it up, man.

It is water, technically, when it comes down to it, I guess. Totally, yeah. You don't want the same thing day after day. Yeah, I have that problem with my relationships. No, I'm just kidding. So, Kara, give us your dot-coms where people can find you on the interwebs. So, karagolden.com. Uh, so, uh, Kara, Kara golden, um,.com it's, it's, uh, K A R A G O L D I N. And then also drink hint.com.

There you go. And, uh, so, uh, give us just a foundation on people and what hint water is. Yeah. So hint water, it's really pretty simple. It's, it's a fruit, it's fruit extracts and water. So there's no sweeteners, there's no sugar, there's no diet sweeteners. A lot of people say, oh, there's no like artificial sweeteners. Well, there's actually no artificial sweeteners, but there's no sweeteners at all. And when I launched the company 15 years ago, I was looking for this product. I didn't know I was looking for

this product. I didn't even know I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I had worked for a lot of entrepreneurs. But for me, it was realizing that I had this huge addiction to Diet Coke. And I wouldn't even call it an addiction at the time. But when I decided, when I read the label, one day, I was just shocked at like, there's over 30 ingredients, and I didn't even know what I was putting into my body. I had this idea that I cared more about what I was putting into my car than I was actually putting into my body. I was like, oh, only put this kind of oil in my car. And I thought, it's pretty sad. Like I was kind of laughing at myself that I just had been fooled by this word diet. And I didn't really realize this until I decided one day

to make the switch and give up drinking Diet Coke. And I had been drinking it for many years. I was like an early adopter to Diet Coke in the early 80s. And that's when I gave it up. Two and a half weeks later, I lost the weight that I was trying to lose. I had gained a bunch of weight through, I'd had three kids at the time. I have four kids now, but I was really kind of blown away by the fact that just by changing off of diet soda, I lost weight. I had terrible adult acne, which I had been trying to get rid of for years that wouldn't go away. And my energy levels had really diminished. And I thought, like, this is crazy, like just by giving up diet, diet Coke, like that's what ends up happening. Like I really

thought like, what else have I done? Is it me? It's it can't be them, you know, kind of thing. And that's when, you know, I really realized also that I just didn't really like the taste of water. Like I said, I had been educated to drink at least eight classes a day, but I just didn't do it. So I started slicing water and throwing it in my water to get me to drink water. And that's when I thought, okay, that's all I need to drink water and not go back to drinking Diet Coke is fruit and water. And I totally thought like that this product was out there in the market when I couldn't find it in San Francisco where I lived. I went to the East Coast, kept looking, thinking, oh, maybe it didn't get to San Francisco yet. Maybe it's like in New York, wasn't there. And that's when I thought, gosh,

if I could just like get it on the shelf, then it would not only, you know, help me and my family continue to drink water that just tasted better, but also would help a lot of other people with lots of other health issues out there. So that is the story of Hint. And I thought it was going to be so easy, just like once I got it on the shelf at Whole Foods and sold 10 cases overnight, I said, we're off to the races. I got this and had no idea how hard it was and sort of what I was up against and taking on the big beverage companies and big sugar and big diet sweeteners and, you know, the, all the lobbyists out there. And as well as trying to figure out, uh, how to actually get a shelf stable product without any preservatives

in it. I mean, just crazy. And I mean, I think people have always asked me like how you ultimately did it. And I said, I just I just tried. Right. Like I just kept I just kept going. Right. And right. And I think it's it's sort of it's what I talk about in the book. I mean, the book is the building of hint, but it's also me, you know, really trying to kind of dig deep into why is it? Was there like one thing? No, there was a lot of things. And it ends up that there's a lot of things that a lot of entrepreneurs do when they're building. They can't say, here's how you go do it. One, two, three.

They're like, well, I went this way. It didn't really work out, you out. And then that way I failed. But I actually learned some important things. And so then I went and did this a few years later. So anyway, that is the crux of the story and a little more than even what you asked for. But I think it adds some color to it. There you go.

And you added some fruit to it there you go uh and you added some uh fruit to the water uh that not really color it is a does it color in the water it's no color it still looks pretty although actually it's interesting in some flavors like uh for example clementine um which is like a type of a citrus. So sometimes there's a little bit of like orange tinge to it. So people are always like, you know, like what, what is that?

And it just depends. I mean, it can have, it's, it's interesting. It's like with a, with a naked eye, sometimes you can see a tiny bit of color,

but it's like two to three drops and 16 ounces of water. So it's pretty diluted. It's a, it's like two to three drops and 16 ounces of water. So it's pretty diluted. It's a hugely successful brand. I see it everywhere. Just give us, for people who don't know, how many years you guys have been in business now and maybe some metrics like global brand or size of the company and revenue, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. So're uh 15 years old we started in 2005 uh and um we are uh we're a private company but it's been estimated that we will do at least 150 million secret is probably more than that this year um but uh but yeah i mean we have 26 flavors we're only in the u.s primarily because of our um sort of theory on um distribution and and doing

everything as local as possible including if we you know we're to go to europe i think we we believe like we should use the people, the fruit, all that, rather than shipping product. There's a lot of little secrets in the beverage industry, probably in other industries too, where I think a lot of people think they try and trick the consumer into believing that they're more eco or more sustainable in some way. And I'm like, how about that ship? Like, how about when you're, you know, maybe there's backhauls or something that go on. But I, you know, I think that that's, that's kind of been the, you know, the ethos of our company is to keep things as local as possible. And it's interesting. I mean, during the pandemic, we got a call from Costco in beginning of May.

And, you know, we've been kind of in and out of Costco over the years and different, there's a bunch of different regions and they reached out and they're like, do you do everything in the US? And I'm like, we do, you know? And they're like, okay, cause there's like a lot of problems right now with companies getting stuff.

Most cans are actually made in Asia. So a lot of these beverages couldn't actually fill their product in the U.S. because they were bringing in either their whole product or parts of their product over. So we went into Costco throughout the country in the beginning of June in the middle of the pandemic, which was crazy. So yeah, so people are starting to understand why actually having your whole supply chain here might be a pretty good idea. That makes a huge difference in pandemics. Hopefully, this is the only one for the short term. Yeah, but it's something that I talk about on my podcast with a lot of companies, especially managing through this pandemic.

It ends up, it used to be like doing something in Italy was like, I talked to one company who was sharing, they used to say it as like, cachet, like Italy. We do this in Italy. Now it's like, we do it in Italy, but we also do it in the US, just in case. Because when factories are on different Rona schedules, where things are shutting down, I mean, it's the reality of business today. And keeping it as local reality of business today. And you've like, keeping it as local as possible is critical. You know, if you do this in England, you could have

like a Guinness hint, and then you can have a fish and chips hint or something. It's true. Well, it's, you know, we were talking about my husband earlier, and my daughter was going to school in Dublin for all last year. And we went to the Guinness factory a couple of times. He's like, he's a geeks out on, first of all, he's our chief operating officer and he's been super instrumental. And we've taken 40% of the plastic out of the bottle. We have automated our supply chain line where most beverage companies have not. And that's all been him. But he has been so excited about the Guinness can.

Do you know what's special about the Guinness can? It's the little clinker thing in it. Yeah, the nitrogen disc down on the bottom. He has been like obsessing over this for like years. Like he's like wanted to like he didn't get to meet the guy who did that but that would be like his bucket list i think that would be his dream like if he could just find the nitrogen guy like he would be a happy man so yeah so it's quite possible we could do like a guinness i'll have to share that idea with him because there you go he'd be quite happy i'm not i think

the clinker thing is the scientific term for that really is it the clinker thing yeah i just always call it the clinker thing because it rattles around the thing yeah but you know you think about that like who who like what made him think of that right like it's maybe i don't know i don't know but it's it's pretty darn cool right and i bet i bet all he did was just try. He didn't know. Maybe he dropped a penny in there one day and he's like, hey, this makes it fizz better or something. I don't know.

Yeah, it works. Probably one of those accidents or something. There's probably some story on it somewhere. But I always, you know, it boils down to when I do end up meeting a lot of these entrepreneurs, it's like they didn't know if it was going to work. They just tried. And then it's like, and it's really that simple and it wasn't some somebody from you know the big beer industry that was coming up with that it was like somebody who was just kind of trying so so you built this hugely successful company and uh it's going incredibly well and it's becoming more popular everywhere else. And you decided to write a book.

What motivated you to want to write this book and put it out? So this book was actually a journal for the last four years. So as you can imagine, I go to nice, you know, small towns, far away places from the Bay Area and building out Hint and trying to visit customers. And I mean, it's actually been a lot of fun. I get to do all kinds of things that I, you know, wouldn't normally do. Like, you know, when I was in Louisville, I went on, I went on the whiskey trail to go and visit like, you know, I mean, it's amazing, just my journey of sort of seeing all these places. But in addition to that, I started writing and journaling. And so and a lot

of times I was, you know, speaking over the last few years on building a company and being a female entrepreneur. And, you know, it's always those questions at the end from the audience members that really kind of had me thinking about a lot of what I wrote in the book, which was, you know, they would say to me, like, they'd have questions about how did you go out and raise money? Or how did you get a product on the shelf of Whole foods or whatever. But oftentimes, it would also have like a strong opinion about how I was so like, bold and how I never had any doubts. And I never had any fears. And I never had any failures. And I would kind of like answer back and often joke about like, wow, like, I've put on such a great show.

That's not true at all. I mean, and they're like, what do you mean? And then I would think of these stories that just kind of came to mind. And then when I'd get back on the plane, I just started writing about many of these stories like, oh, that time when we got kicked out of Whole Foods and that time when we got kicked out of Starbucks. And like everybody said, like, don't ever get kicked out of like a retailer because you'll never get back in. And I was like, I don't know, we've gotten back in like a couple of times. It's like the buyer changes and then everybody forgets or whatever. And I thought, God, just by like sharing these stories. Again, this was my journal. Like I thought i could actually really lift a lot of not just entrepreneurs but maybe would-be entrepreneurs and kind of like reset like the rules a little

bit about like that's not what my journey was at all like you know you're supposed to like most people think like okay you go launch a beverage and you know first of all you worked at one of the big like soda companies for years and then you like are so brilliant that you go and launch like a beverage company and I think that so much of the reason why we've actually been able to do what we've done is that we didn't have beverage experience I had no idea what I was doing. I would sit there and ask, I would try and network my way around and ask people, how do I produce a beverage that doesn't have preservatives in it? And everybody would say, you can't. And I'd be like, why? And they're like, you just can't. But why? Right. Why not? And then a lot of people that would just

annoy the crap out of them. Right. But then some people would be like, I don't really know. And, and so then I would, you know, I was really good at sort of digging, digging. And then even the people who seem kind of curious, I, I'd like call them up three months later and I'd say, Hey, remember we were having this conversation. Here's what I found out. They'd be like, oh, that's really interesting. You should talk to this person. So I'd like network my way and just keep like getting with the curious people until I'd ultimately be able to get my answer. And P.S., like we were the first beverage that actually produced a water with fruit in it that didn't have preservatives in it. Like everybody told me it was impossible to do it, but we did it by just going and trying and like thinking about

things and looking at different industries. But I think that, you know, the other thing that I touch on in this book is something that I've thought a lot about, which is the fact that we came from the tech industry. And in the tech industry, it's a world of adding on, right? There's updates constantly. And so you work as hard as you can, and then, or you launch a product, and then you know that there's going to be the next version, right? It's going to come out. It's not like a puzzle that ends. In the beverage industry, it's like, I'm going to launch a product. And as long as it sells, it's just going to like stay that way, like forever, right? It'll never change. And like, and unless like the consumer wants more sugar in it or wants more sweet in it, then maybe I'll add something to it. But don't tell anybody that we're doing it unless right, like, it's like this weird thing that went on, that I guess, because I grew up in the tech

industry, or, you know, since that was like, really not my first job, but kind of like my job when I came to Silicon Valley was just all about like, you know, really channeling my curiosity into asking people why and just keep adding on and keep developing. And so I think like that, when people ask me today, like, why were you able to do it? I mean, I really feel like it's a combination of a lot of things. But I think, you know, just not actually growing up in the beverage industry and thinking about like, it's everything is done this way. You know, like we were able to innovate because we didn't know and we didn't have the experience.

And so you weren't locked in by those rules that you're like, well, why do we do it this way? Well, everybody does it this way. Yeah. And, and I think like that's,

that's yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's like another piece of this too which you know is anyway sort of a deeper conversation but one that i think you know i was really craving like i was i felt like when i left aol i had a great time there and then i know, saw this like problem. And I was like, I went from being a VP at AOL down to like, delivering cases to my local Whole Foods. And people were like, wait, what are you doing? And I like, and I'm like, I'm loading up the truck. And I'm like, putting 10 cases in and I'm gonna go put them in the back. And then I and then I like go in the back room and then they're like not there and I'd be like where'd they go and they're like oh the Pepsi guy threw them out and I'm like wait what how can that happen like here you know and I was just like next time I see that Pepsi guy I'm gonna tell him

and like but it was like a comedy hour like I just couldn't believe like every day that this stuff was happening like i mean i you know you and i share a mutual friend you know robert scoble i've told him uh you know these these stories and you know people that i knew that were like in my circle in tech they were like come on like that didn't happen i'm like yes Like I was just like, and so again, like it was like this, it was this world that I just didn't even know existed. I was buying these products, but I felt like for me, I was also that the lure of it was also just getting educated around this like whole world that I just didn't even know existed that just seemed bizarre on, but sort of fun like on some levels frustrating on certain days but i was just like god that like this is crazy how do i make this normal and so and and frankly 15 years later

like i still see see stuff where i'm just like i mean it's just you can't make this stuff up like i say that on like a every other day basis still still 15 years later where it just is like, I don't know. I just, I, I think that that was part of the lure too, that I was just shocked on so many levels by some stuff that, that I would like see going on or, or that couldn't happen and nobody would have an answer for it. You know, this is the beauty of being an entrepreneur. I started my first company as 18 and got the drug and I was hooked. And, and a lot of times people are just trying to solve a problem for themselves. And that's what a lot of great entrepreneurs do. And a lot of people don't realize is that it's sometimes just as simple as a selfish reason like that. You're like,

you're not like, I'm trying, I don't want to change. I want to change the world. You're just like, uh, I don't know, this is a pain point and I'm going to fix it. And, and then you start asking, like you say, the questions, well, why, why not? And you know, people, I love, there's an old adage that I've always used in, in business advice. It's, and then there's a few different variations of it, but one of them is the, is the Turkey with the newlyweds. And, you know, she cuts off the legs and throws them in the garbage and cooks the turkey and then the new husband's like why did you do that for and they you know they call up to the great-grandmother and finds out that you know in the old days they had to do

it that way because they were small stoves but you know i've been i work with so many different companies and stuff where it's like why do you do it this way and they go i don't know we always do it this way right and you go and you start asking you know questions and that really is the power asking those questions of of what started it so uh give us a little bit of insight because you you put this in the book you talk the book's awesome because a lot of it is it kind of a how-to and you you talk through some of your stuff so what were some of the some of the first steps you took it at like you're like, hey, I want to take this to the next level and make it a company or I guess you started doing batches and you're kind of toying with the idea in your kitchen and stuff like that. Yeah.

So I didn't even, I mean, friends would, so we get into Whole Foods and we have three, you know, flavors, right? And people are like, that's so cool that you start a company. And I was like, a company? Like, no, I just got three different flavors that i'm putting on the shelf like this isn't a company like i i worked at aol like i'd see there's like lots of offices there's like you know they've got revenue coming in like i'm just like barely like i'm driving down the street in san francisco and trying to get it into the store. That's not really a company. And so once I sort of tried and got it in there, then I was finally like, okay, so maybe it's like a little company.

And I got my arms around that at that point. But I think that it just, I mean, so many things along the way. Like, I think it was like this roller coaster, too, of feeling at one point that, okay, I'm going to go try. And then all of a sudden it, like, seems like it's kind of working. It gets on the shelf. And then all of a sudden they're like, you need to have a distributor. And I'm like, oh, do you have someone's phone number? You know, like, how do I get that?

And they're like, are you serious? And I'm like, I'm very serious. Like, how do I get a distributor? And I was like, do you think Coke would, like, distribute my product? No, they're not going to do it. I'm like, okay, well, who? And they're like, you don't have a distributor? And I'm like, no, no, no.

I'm like, I mean, I loaded up And they're like, you don't have a distributor? And I'm like, no, no, no. I'm like, I mean, I loaded up my car and I brought it in here. No, you have to have a distributor, figure out a distributor. So nobody would give me an answer. So I used to follow people in the stores that kind of looked official. And it's kind of hard at Whole Foods because they don't really have a uniform. They're all about individuality right and and so I'd you know try and figure out like did they look like they were touching lots of different brands or just one brand and so and so then I'd like tap people on the back I'd be like oh excuse me do you like do you work for a brand do you have a distributor like who do you use like I would i would just start asking and like some of these people are like who is she like you know go go away and i'm like i like i'm really

nice like i just i was just curious who the distributor was and you know i don't know maybe you feel the same way like i'd seen coke and pepsi and maybe cisco trucks drive down the street but i didn't know how to like they don't have phone numbers on the trucks right like i didn't know how to like, they don't have phone numbers on the trucks. Right. Like I didn't know how to use our distributor and they weren't going to do it. And so, you know, that was kind of the first mission. And again, like I would just get, I would like look at the problem and then I'd like try and solve that problem. And it was like this, I don't know, it was like a goal. And then I, I'd start making progress.

All of a sudden I'd have like five names of distributors and I'd start calling progress. All of a sudden, I'd have like five names of distributors and I'd start calling them and then two would actually want to have a meeting with me. And I'm like, I almost got a distributor. I'd have these little wins along the way. But then the other thing that would happen that really was sort of the saving grace was that I started hearing from customers early on, like we had a 1-800 number on still do on our bottle and an email and customers would start writing to me who didn't know me. Right. And they're like, Oh, my gosh, I just got it at Whole Foods or Molly Stone's. And like, this is exactly what I'm looking for. Like, you know,

I've been wanting to drink more water, and I didn't like the taste. And, you know, I'm like, this is exactly what I'm looking for. Like, you know, I've been wanting to drink more water and I didn't like the taste. And, you know, I'm like, awesome. And I would get those. I still get those emails today, like where people would call up and they'd be like, you know, it tastes really good. Like what's it sweetened with?

And I'm like, there's no sweeteners. And they're like, okay, but what's it sweetened with? Really? Like, it's just, you know, like they would just call because the number was on there. And so, you know, something I talk about in the book too, and I've talked about for years is like, once you actually work on a product, like, and, and you actually get this feedback from consumer that consumers that you're helping. I mean, remember 15 years ago, they didn't even term things like mission-based companies or purpose-driven or anything. And so for me, it was like, I mean, that was like really the drug, right? Where consumers would say like, you're helping me. And they'd say it in different ways, but then like every other, they would actually use that word help. And, and so I kept thinking, like, I had this responsibility when there were times that were like really, really hard, I would naturally go

back and I'd be like, well, you know, Lisa wrote to me and, you know, she's like, no longer taking diabetes medication because she's drinking hint, you know, like stuff like that, like along the way that I, that,, that was super powerful. And again, this person lives in Iowa, and they're writing to me. It's crazy, right? And so for me, I think always, Steve Jobs talked about this, you don't ask the consumer, you just deliver, right? I mean, he said it in a more eloquent way, maybe, but I think that that's the thing that I saw early on. And with all the rest of the companies that I had

worked with, it was like, you know, we had worked with consumers, but we were kind of removed from the consumer. So I would never get these like emails like I get with Hint, which were like, you're helping me. And I think today, any entrepreneur that can actually, look, everybody in the world wants to help. They may not articulate that, but it's such a great feeling to know that you're actually helping somebody do something. And by actually creating a company that is a for-profit company, you know, with water, like it's so simple, right. That it was like, you know, but so powerful. So, so I think like, that's, that's like one of the stories along the way that I talk about. Also, you know, another story from the book was like a year into building Hint, I was really like thinking this thing is really hard. Like there's so many games that are played. I was just, I was wiped. I had four kids under the age of six. And I'm like, you know, going nutso at this point and thinking I could make a lot more money in the tech industry. Like why don't I go back and do that? Like it's been fun. It's been real, but I mean, I don't know

how to like, there's so many games that are played along the way. And so a friend connected me with an executive at that big soda company in Atlanta. And so I reached out and i was really excited because i thought maybe i could get a distribution partnership going or you know i don't know like maybe they would they would you know tell me how to get a shelf-stable product with no preservatives i had all these questions i was so excited and 15 minutes after kind of sharing my story of how successful we had been, he interrupted me and he said, sweetie, Americans love sweet. This isn't going anywhere. And I'm like, whoa, like, did he just call me sweetie? And I was like, okay, wow. Like I'm not, as my dad had said to me, he was like, it's a good thing you weren't like sitting across the table from him. I don't think

that would have ended really well. And I was like, no, I was on the phone. And so I had a choice at that point. Like I, you know, I either could tell him off on the phone or I could hang up on him or I could just like, listen to like, what a jerk this guy was like for a few minutes, just to make sure that I didn't like mishear him or I don't know. And so what I what ended up happening then for the next 45 minutes is he shared with me how like right he was and how, like, you know, they've done all these studies about about consumers and what they care about is, you know, less calories, and they want want things sweeter and so as long as the consumer gets those things like it just like they're going to be happy and they're going to buy

and never in never during that one hour conversation did i ever hear the word health and so that and so that and and i knew that that's what I that's that was my mission. And so I sat there and like listened and I hung up the phone and it was that moment when I said, if I don't do this, he's not doing it. doesn't believe in this. He believes in creating products that are healthy perception products versus healthy reality. Maybe that changes down the road, but today he's doing the same thing over and over again and it's working. So why change it? I'm saying that this consumer is coming. I was one of them and they're buying it. It's small. It's a new category, but they're buying it. And so that was the moment that I really said, I got to do this because I've got consumers that want this product and I'm doing it. As crazy as that sounded. So I felt this commitment to go do it or shut the company down, which I wasn't going to do. There you go. I mean, there's another resolution of the, well, we've always done it this way,

so we have to keep doing it this way. And you're going, why and why not? I think your company, along with others, I've done the full research on this, and I'm sure you'll tell me, was one of the ones that really, you know, for a long time there, Coke was just focusing on Coke, Pepsi was focused on Pepsi, and then they really started exploring into these different water variations. I think you had some effect at moving them into some other fields that were less sugary. Yeah, well, it's funny.

I remember the first time we had so many stories about that. But the first time we had a competitor, we got a call from uh target actually sharing that um that coca-cola had come out with a competitor it was called dasani essence water and we had you know been in target like really in a small way i, I think we had like three facings on the shelf. You could barely even see us. We have like 16 feet today. So it's a very different situation. And so they reached out to us and they said, yeah, so Dasani Essence Water, we have a huge relationship with Coke. And so you're out. I'm like, we're out. Like we've been selling. It's like going great. Yep. Nope. They're the category captains. And so I'm like, what's a category captain? They're like, well, the category captain determines like they have so much space allotted. It's like this big secret, you know, but but you're like the net of it is, is that you're out. And I'm like, well, I understand the term out, but I'd still like, like to be in. So how do we like, I mean,

how can they push me around? Right. It seems bizarre. And they're like, sorry, like you're out. So click. So that was a bad day in the hint timeline. Like it was tiny. We were still tiny, tiny, but it was still a bad day. Right. So then I get a phone call a few, few like months later, like we're focusing, we have some other business going on, but we're still depressed about target. Like that's a big hit. So we get a call and they're like, Hey, like great news. Like we want to put you back in. I'm like, we're back in like the category captain, like was like, he wants us back? And they're like, no, they decided not to do Dasani Essence Water anymore. And I'm like, wait, they were in

there. Oh yeah, they were in, their sales were there. We have customers that really want this unsweetened flavored water. And I was like, okay, I don't get it. And they were like, they don't want to focus on it anymore. Cause they, they do like Coke and vitamin water and diet Coke. And like, they don't like, they do a water, but they don't really want to do water. Like, it's like, you know, like they want you to buy the rest of the stuff. And so, so I was like, oh, well that's, I mean, of course. And they were like, okay. So the other thing is, is that your space is actually going to double. Wow.

And I'm like, double? Like, how did that whole thing work? And they're like, well, they had more space when they came in. the lesson there that I share with entrepreneurs all the time is now Coke and Pepsi have now launched in the last 15 years, nine times, like they've launched a competitor. So the running joke inside of our company is like, where are we going to gain space? And of course, because it's like, you know, they have all this power, they're category captains, right? And so it's so but what's what's fascinating is I went into this thinking, okay, you get a competitor and, you know, and it's a, it's a temporary disruption. But what I figured out, especially if you're

starting an entirely new category, like competition is okay. Like they'll grow your category, you just have to sit there and focus on your stuff and do it really, really well and be nice and be polite and deliver. And, and that's, you know, that's what I've learned along the way. And there's, it's sort of the theory of like, there's some things you can control and there's some things you can't control. And like, and I think that the other thing that I've learned through that is that you don't have ever have too much weight in one basket. Because like when those things happen, and they will happen, then, you know, you really care about them when they're actually going to hit you hard, right? And they hit you hard when they're a big percentage.

And so you try and get as many areas and as many retailers as possible so that it doesn't matter. And so, I mean, it matters temporarily, but then you can sit there and reallocate it. And then the other thing that I learned a few years ago when we started our direct-to-consumer business is that now if a major retailer were to say, okay, we own this whole region of the country and we're going to have one of the big soda guys, they're category captains and they're basically, they don't want to see you guys in here anymore. Happens less, the bigger you get, the less those conversations happen, but it could happen. But now that our direct-to-consumer business is over 50% of our overall business, we could actually go into a region and target that region. And so that is a conversation that fortunately we haven't had to have with a retailer. But I've said, as we continue to build

this direct-to-consumer business and we're bringing in kind of what we know about tech, I think it's fascinating because you actually have that direct relationship with the consumer. And I think the pandemic just accelerated that for brands when the consumer is like, I don't wanna go to the grocery store today.

Maybe I'll go once a week. I won't go every day. I want to buy online or buy from Amazon or buy through Instacart. Like it's a whole new world out there. And so things like, you know, like the end caps or things that, you know, these category captains actually controlled are like it's it's again a whole new world that that we've learned but anyway so it's another story and another like it it's uh i've had many people who have read the book who uh who have never been in the beverage industry and they've written to me and they're like holy mo moly, like I had no idea. And I'm like, but it's kind of entertaining, right? Like, it's like, you know, it's pretty funny. I mean, Guy Kawasaki, when he read my book, he, he, he's hysterical. He, he called me, he was like,

okay, I just got one question for you. I'm like, what's that? Who in the world would want to be an entrepreneur after reading your book? And I was like, I'm still smiling. I'm like, I was like, what's that? Who in the world would want to be an entrepreneur after reading your book? And I was like, I'm still smiling. I'm like, I was like, you can't make the stuff up. Right. And he was like, I know. But he was like, I was just sitting here like looking at this. And I said, this is this is the entrepreneur's dilemma. Right. You keep going. Do you like I mean, and all you can do is laugh, right? Like, that's the other thing that you have to be able to, you know, look at your mistakes and learn from them, like recognize like your successes, like, you know, and just kind of keep thinking,

like, you know, what's the worst that can happen? What else can I be doing? And have it like mindset and attitude are just so key. This is the thing that I loved about being an entrepreneur that I, I, I wish everyone would, could get into or would get into because the self-actualization of it, it changes you as a person. It, it draws out just, I don't, I don't know that anything in the world, maybe motherhood might, might make more, bring more self-actualization. I've never tried that yet, but you know, there's still time. But, but the self-actualization that you learn being an entrepreneur, having to look inside and go, what are the resources? You know, you have to be, everything, the buck stops with you and ends with you and so you constantly have to sit there and go uh okay what do i got to do today um you know you went into a crazy business to get into you're going up against giants like coca-cola and pepsi uh these guys are monsters that don't want you anywhere on near their shelves or interfering with their business model uh you know like you

like you talk about the book with retailers you know there's the shelf space the end caps the negotiating with the buyers negotiating with the distributors and you you went to distributors or producers and you know they're giving you problems about all the different issues that you have to solve it's like an endless array of just problem solving and and you're just constantly like what do i fix now? And you kind of get used to it after a while, but the innovation and asking why and why this is important and stuff. And then, of course, like you mentioned, a little bit of the sexism. We'll talk about that here in a second. There's so much to overcome, especially if you're a small company.

I've been in those places where you're meeting with people and going, hey, you should do business with us. And they're like, who the hell are you? You little tiny thing. You little company yeah what you just uh yeah you're unless you do you have a truck like a big coca-cola ball i remember you you were like reminding me i remember the first time we met with walmart this is a this is a really good story so this is not in the book actually so the first time we met with walmart we go and sit down in the lobby and we're like waiting there's like nobody in the reception desk and it's like 15 minutes after and i'm like thinking oh like i wonder if she went to the restroom like where's

the receptionist and so they've got like a door that um where all the buyers are like behind this door and i keep waiting like if somebody opens the door, I'll go ask somebody, like maybe she took off for the day or whatever. And I'm waiting, waiting. It's like 45 minutes now after. And I'm like, God, I feel really bad. And so finally I called a guy and that we're meeting with. And he was like, oh, you're actually supposed to ring the doorbell at the desk.

I'm like, there's a doorbell at the desk? He was like, oh, yeah, no one told you that? I'm like, nope. I was like, where's the doorbell? He was like, it's on the side of the desk, so you can't even see it. So he's like, well, i only got about 15 more minutes if you want the rest of your like meeting i'm like dude i didn't know there was a doorbell like i was like but again it's like you know we just like my i mean my husband and i were like there to do like our

you know dog and pony show in bentonville and like it wasn't easy to get there from San Francisco either anyone who's like been to Walmart and uh anyway it was just but but again like all these stories even made it that much more like we would just die laughing like like later maybe not the time we're like damn like we we could have like really killed it in that Walmart meeting if we were to have like the extra 45 minutes right like we're like the doorbell you know and so we would just sit there and like die laughing at at these stories along the way that i think we're you know it's just i don't know it was just so much there's so much serendipity that comes into you know that's what new things you do as an entrepreneur. You throw your slate out there and you hope that the world will come. You build it and hope that

they'll come. And there's so much serendipity that happens to it that's expansive and successful. Sometimes there's failure, but there's so many different opportunities. But by opening yourself to that thing, and I think that's what a lot of people fail to realize, you know, they see people that are successful entrepreneurs and they just go, well, they start a company one day and they probably got some investors, some money and, and the dad gave him some money and you know, then it was successful. Yeah. No, they just don't even realize it.

I think that the other piece of it that I've realized and frankly been, you know, really grateful for is that when I got into kind of my roles that I like, I started out in media and then, you know, went into tech, I was always dealing with kind of, I don't know, office people, right? Like not necessarily C-suite, but sort of office people. And then when I'm like doing the beverage, like what I realized is like, you know, the guy that actually is, is like merchandising my product and whole foods as well as like the guy at the plant, like who's like actually making my product and being able to like go in there and communicate and talk to them. Like those were like some of the smartest people that I met and it didn't matter what their education level was. Right. And so I think, you know,

that was like another piece of it, of it too, that we were able, that we were really able to sort of win on too. And, you know, I talk about my husband as well, who's our, was our chief operating officer early on and still is today. Like he had been, he was an intellectual property lawyer in silicon valley and like we would be going into you know an old apple juice plant like trying to learn and people are like oh did you guys used to like work at pepsi you know we're like oh no we like worked we worked in silicon valley and they're like okay that's better than pepsi like those

guys like you know they don't treat us right and we're like, okay, that's better than Pepsi. Like those guys, like, you know, they don't treat us right. And we're like, really, what, what, like, what do they do? You know? And, and so all of a sudden it was like this industry that they, they didn't know, like, we weren't sort of the arrogant tech people, right? We were like, they hadn't sort of gotten that memo yet that maybe some people like, like to think about Silicon Valley. Instead, we were like, they hadn't sort of gotten that memo yet that maybe some people like to think about Silicon Valley. Instead, we were like, you know, so we're trying to produce a product that doesn't have preservatives in it. Like, what do you think about that?

And they're like, probably not going to happen, but I don't know. And we're like, well, what about like, could we try something? And they're like, well, we're busy until like 11 o'clock tonight. We'll like, we'll stay like, that's fine. Like we can go and run like product with you at 11 o'clock at night and sit in Watsonville, California. And, and they're like, really? Like you would stay here?

I'm like, yeah, I got a babysitter at home. Like I'm, I'm, I'm good. And, you know, we'd like sit there and, you know, just cause we were so curious, but also because we were just willing to be on their time. Like we were just, I don't know, like you seem, Chris, you seem like the kind of person that you'd sort of like think like this is like an experience better than going to Disneyland. And, you know, like, right. Like I was just really interested. And I thought I'm like sitting around there watching this stuff like happen. And again, like I think that's a story too where you can actually not only, you know, sort of get to the bottom of things if you don't have experience. But I think also when you come to someone's like time and especially when you are like on the low end of the, you know, understanding level, like, you know, we were willing to like be there at 11 o'clock at night or 430 in the morning in order to like do companies were like oh they'll only see us at like

11 o'clock in the morning we're like you know you shouldn't see them anymore you should just hang with us right and and again like i think that was like that was such a that was such a benefit you know that and so anyway that was it so how much does it come down to passion? Because let me just recap on what you were talking about. A lot of entrepreneurs, like we said, comes down to asking why and being curious. I mean, even a great inventor is the same thing. They're curious and they go, why? Why not?

And why can't it be done this way? What's the better way? And a lot of people will be like, oh, this is the way we've been doing it for years. But how much is passion, having that passion or that curiosity really important in being successful as an entrepreneur? Yeah. I mean, I think curiosity is 100%. I mean, every entrepreneur that I've read about or talked to over the years, I think it's definitely like this problem solving thing that goes on that they and it doesn't mean that they're like that they got the best SAT scores either. Right. Like it's just they're just curious.

Right. I mean, that's what I mean. Like, it's just that's what I've learned. Like it can come in, you know, lots of different places and ways and, and sizes and shapes. Like, it's just, it's a very, um, you know, I think curiosity really drives it. And then I think passion kind of like, while curiosity and passion go hand in hand, I feel like passion, um, like really believing in something and like, and that passion, like really believing in something. And like, in that passion, I always say like Trump's experience, you know, like, it's just, it's way better. And, you know, I think, I think that even, you know, when we've looked at hiring people, I mean, we've hired a lot of people who

don't have industry experience, and they've been our best employees. We have some great employees who sort of like, finally saw the light of day and said, I got to get out of there. I don't want to like, you know, be at this company, you know, for long, because it's similar to the cigarette industry. And I don't want to attach, you know, my name to something like that. I mean, as crazy as that may sound today, I really do believe that that's, you know, something that will, you know, 20 by 2030, I think like people will be looking at it that way. And that industry like what in the heck was I doing? You know, like, it's like today, I don't think you would walk around proudly say I work for Philip Morris, right? Like, it's just not something that you would necessarily do right and so anyway i think like that's uh curiosity is definitely a lot of it and um and yeah i i think that's really the probably the key thing that i think about finding something that you're passionate about too really drives you i mean it really makes a difference difference. Sometimes I struggle with some of the companies we had in the early days, but I like being CEO

and I like being the problem solver and I like being the guy. And that's what got me off. But I hated most of the companies I've done. In fact, I don't think I've ever really loved anything other than just being the CEO, being the investor. I used to tell sometimes my board, I'd be just like, you know, I love doing this so much

and just being innovative and solving all the problems and just doing the CEO thing, being the guy who's responsible for everything. I don't even know why you bother paying me because I do this for free. Just put CEO on the card and I'll do it. There you go. And, but I love books like this because they inspire a lot of people. They pull back the veneer of the Wizard of Oz impressions that people build on us where they just go, well, they must be, you know, they were born that way or, you know, the sort of thing. And they get to see what goes on to it. We're rendering an interesting time where a lot of people are going to be reinventing themselves. I lost a lot of our companies with the

2008 recession where just everything stopped. The companies that we built that we thought we had a little empire for 20 years. And so a lot of people right now are going to be going through these things with layoffs and finding their passion. And a lot of those are going to be women. We're seeing a lot of the rise of women in the marketplace. They're starting to do their own things. And I'm sure there's going to be a lot of women that are going to be struggling with being laid off or what there is going on in the recession right now. And you had some great interviews you did with Sheryl Sandberg, the COO of Facebook and the founder of LeanIn.org. And, you know, sexism is one of those things that women, unfortunately, may keep them out of the industry where they're like, I don't want to deal with all that sort of crap, you know, just like you brought up with the guy who called you sweetie. And, and I'm sure he was just discounting you on the phone

call because he's like, Oh, some girl wants to start a company, you know, that sort of thing. Any advice to women out there like that? And I'm sure there's some in your book. Yeah. I mean, I think I've heard it all right. Like over the years. And I think, you know, it sort of goes along with, with kind of the, you know, my theory around like when bad things happen or things happen, you know, like, I think you have a choice, right? Like you either, you know, stick up for yourself or say something or, or you do a little bit of that. And then also just like, prove them wrong. Right. And I think I gotta tell you, like, you know, living in this world that I'm living in now, it's while it's taken like 15 years, I mean, my favorite thing is that when I run into people who didn't invest in us or, you know, they thought I was some, you know, dumb tech executive, female probably too, that was like, oh, she wants to like start a water company or whatever. And like, and then they're like, oh, wow, I should have done that. I'm like, you should have, right?

And now they're like, I throw it. I'm like, at least you own your shortcomings, right? That's the key thing. But yeah, I mean, so many stories. I mean, I remember one story and somebody was just asking me about this the other day. I was raising money in Silicon Valley, like all the VCs in Sand Hill Road were drinking hint and they were seeing it in all the tech offices. And I go, you know, go with my dog and pony show.

We have to like raise money. I'm like, OK, they're even calling us. So we're not even like, you know, this is going to be a great meeting. And I remember walking into this one VC's office and with my husband and, you know, I've got my whole deck and everything. And I walk in and he's like, oh, I was, I was reading a lot about your company and it's really cool that you've started and we love him. And he was like, so who's watching the kids and i was like oh my god like i was like oh my god who's watching the kids and he looked at me

and he was like i he thought i was serious but i was like oh my god like i was like oh we so there's a stick we have babysitters actually like i it's it's yeah i mean it's amazing like they actually come and like you hire them and they come and like watch your kids i mean this was not very like long ago and he looked at me like how like i and and he didn't catch himself like at all if you're listening right like hear yourself you know and here that was me um but you know it was so funny so i you know we did a nice like nice presentation and everything like went great and you know the rest of the meeting went just fine and then uh and then i i was walking out to the car with my husband and he was like that was just crazy that he said

that and I said I know whatever you know like you know I I like moved on or whatever I wasn't even thinking about and he's like do you think he thinks like I'm just a total deadbeat dad and I was like what do you mean and he was like like he never asked me who was watching the kids and i'm i was like god that's really true yeah he's just stupid right like and so i mean that just so this goes into some things you can control some things that you can't control but my perception on that conversation was you, he was an ignorant jerk, right? Like, you know, and I think he was just stupid, right? Like he was stupid on a lot of fronts. But at the end of the day, what was I going to do? I mean, PS, he didn't invest in the company. Because that's another thing that I learned along the way is that, you know, Silicon Valley for us seem like, I mean, there's all these investors, right? That's what we knew.

But people invest in what they actually know. They may not tell you that, but that's the reality. Like if they've never invested in a beverage company before, it's quite unlikely that you're going to be it. Like it might happen, but it probably won't. And the reason I bring that up is because, you know, people come up with a lot of excuses to, why shouldn't I start a business? Well, I don't know. You know, you started your business. You had four kids.

And I think I heard on one of the podcast research I did, you just had your fourth baby as you were delivering your first cases or something along those lines. Yeah. I was having a, yeah, I was going to the hospital. And I thought I didn't have to be there till two. So I decided, I said to my husband, do you mind if we stop by Whole Foods? Because I have a pallet of water in the garage and I'm not going to be able to get my car in when I San Francisco at the time. He was like, maybe we could walk around the neighborhood or something. And I was like, Nope, I'd really like to like go to Whole Foods. So the first cases, yeah, so, you know, the not to bore you, but but the story was we get to Whole Foods. And you know, my husband's like being really nice and helping me, like carry the cases in the Whole Foods. And then we get there and he was like, who do you talk to? And I had sort of been, you know, talking to this guy that

was stuck in the shelves and whole foods. And, uh, he said, uh, I said, Hey, do you remember me? I hadn't been in for a couple of months. And he said, yeah. He said, wow, you're really pregnant. And I said, I, I am, I'm. I'm super pregnant. And he said, like, are you going to deliver right now? I was like, I hope not. I'm supposed to be at the California Pacific Medical Center at two o'clock. And he was like, how do you know, like, you have to be there at two? And I said, well, I'm having a planned C-section. And he was like, what do you mean a planned C-section? And I said, so you plan it, like you have an appointment and I'm going to go deliver a baby. And he was like, what do you mean a planned C-section? And I said, so you plan it, like you have an appointment and I'm going to go deliver a baby. And he was like, so are there

other types of C-sections? And I said, yeah, there's an emergency. I've had that too. And so I've had an emergency C-section and a planned C-section. And he was like, oh, and I said, you seem confused. And he said, no, I just, I didn't even know that like you could deliver a baby by a C-section. And I was like, yeah, so there's vaginal deliveries. And so my poor husband overhears me saying this and he's backing up into the fruit and vegetable aisle. And with these cases, he's like, she's really going there. She's like, she's going to explain where babies come from to this guy.

And so he's like, leaves. He's like, I don't even want to witness this whole thing. And then he comes back 15 minutes later wondering if I'm done. And the guy was like, thank you so much. Like, that was amazing. Like, I never had any sisters. I just, you know, and I was like, no problem. Like, you know, my pleasure.

And he was like, well, good luck. Like, you know, and I was like, no problem. Like, you know, my pleasure. And he was like, well, good luck. Like, you know, I was like, by the way, can I, is there any way you could actually put my product on the shelf? Like I have cases here and he's like, I don't know if I can do it or not. So I went to the hospital, no, like not knowing whether or not he actually did it. And, you know, my husband's like, you know, stop selling. Like he actually did it and you know my husband's like you know stop selling like he'll do it if he can you know and i'm like all right whatever so i go deliver justin everything's great the next day i get a phone call and you know i i was like waiting

because by the way like your family and your friends when you have your fourth like no one calls like everybody just says oh they're out for like a few like whatever they have a million kids like don't invite them over right like just like let them go have their baby so um so i get this phone call and i'm so excited and i was like who is it my husband answers about he's like it's the guy at whole foods and i said oh what do you say he said he said the the cases are gone and so i was like give me's the guy at Whole Foods. And I said, oh, what did he say? He said, he said the cases are gone. And so I was like, give me the phone. And so I said, who took the cases?

And he was like, no, they were sold. They sold out, like the 10 cases. And I was like, oh my God, that's crazy. And so then the nurse came in the room and was like, you can't be so loud. You have to be resting. You're like, I'm like screaming in the bed. And you, when you have a C-section, you get three days. And so in the hospital.

And so she was like, you know, you, you just cannot be talking so loud and yelling. I was like, you know, Theo, we got to like get out of the hospital right now and go deliver cases because they're going to give the space away. Like the guy was like, and so we checked out early and she was like, are you sure you can't come back? I'm like, I'm sure. And so, so we check out of the hospital and then the even better part of the story I think is, is, uh, so we get home and then, you know, I've got my, my, uh, pain medication. And so my husband was like, you're not going to Whole Foods. You're not driving.

You're going to like, you know, just rest here and I'll go take the cases. And I'm like, okay, great. That's, that's great. So he comes home and he's like, you know, I stopped by FedEx Kinko's because the, the guy there, there were like a couple of Whole Foods guys and they were like, do you have a card? And I was like, no, I'm just like delivering this product hint. And I don't know, it's my wife, like intellectual property, like Silicon Valley lawyer, like he's like sitting here. And so

they were like, you know, next time you have to have a card. And he was like, okay. He hadn't had a card. He didn't have a business card. So he stopped by FedEx Kinko's and he got a card and he was like okay he had never he hadn't had a card he didn't have a business card so he that so he stopped by FedEx Kinko's and he got a card and he was like I hope it's okay um you know I I put a title on my card and I was like you put a title on your card what was the title saying he's like I'm the chief operating officer of Hint Beverage Company and I was like awesome he was like is that okay you think that's fine I was like, awesome. He was like, is that okay? You think that's fine? And I was like, dude, I got four kids under the age of six. You can be whatever you want right now. Like, I'm like, I'm still supposed to be in the hospital. Why did I check out early? Like, I'm just like, oh my God. But you know, so yeah, so he became the chief operating officer. And 15 years later, he's still the chief operating officer.

And he's a rock star operating officer. But yeah, I mean, it was, you know, it's a crazy story of, you know, like also just kind of going and doing it. And we didn't know what the rules were. And we just kept rolling along and making progress. And we didn't know what the rules were. And we just kept rolling along and making progress. The serendipity of the moment. And there's some guy for the rest of his life who gets to tell a story about how Karen Goldman told him about a baby, right? I know. And, you know, it's like, yeah. And then my poor son, Justin, he was like in high school now, like, I'll tell the story. He's like, you know, like i'll tell the story he's like you know horrified

by the book he's like mom like you know do you have to tell everybody the story and i'm like you know it's i mean it's like fact right like it's like all of a sudden he was like okay and but that's another thing like i think that you know you talked about sexism a little bit I mean this sort of like ties into sort of being a mom as well I think like the other thing that I've learned in in kind of this journey as well which is um you know I've as my son one of the stories in the book is you you had mentioned Cheryl so when my son heard Cheryl talking about lean in on television when it was first out, and he was, I guess, like 12 years old at the time, and we're sitting down at the dinner table. And he was like, Mom, I just realized like, women aren't CEOs. And I'm like, where's he going with

this? Like, I don't want to have this conversation with my 12 year old son, right? Like, and, and he was like, so you've always been the ceo so why like why is it so hard for for other women like what's you know i'm like well i like started my own company and you know i did this and he was like well you guys are doing pretty well like why why like why is this like a problem i'm like i don't know and you know, and so like what I realized at that moment thing that I've really learned in entrepreneurism and you know speaking of you know people out there that maybe are trying to figure out what's next for them maybe they were furloughed laid off whatever like use this time right now to like try and figure out like that crazy idea out there don't sit there and say I don't have experience

I haven't worked for a bunch of years I got got a bunch of kids. Try and figure out what you can do instead of trying to put these blockades up in front of you to say, there's a million reasons why I can't do it. Because my hope is that people will hear my story and say, I don't know if that chicky can do it. I could probably do it too, or please don't call me that chicky can do it. Like I could probably do it too, or please don't call me a chicky, but that's right up there with sweetie. But you know what I mean? Like if somebody, I, I, I really do believe that I'm no different than anyone else other than the fact that I'm just not afraid to fail. And I'm, I'm like, you know, I just keep going and trying things just cause I, I think that the rush of actually succeeding and is like, you know, I just keep going and trying things just because I think that the rush of actually succeeding and is like, you know, pretty awesome.

But also like if I fail, like I think that that will be part of my journey too. And I'll learn a lot from it. That's what I love about a lot of these books and all these stories. They inspire people and people are sitting around going, well, I'm a woman. Well, I have kids, I have a family, you know, I can't start a business. You know, I started my first businesses, uh, with sweat equity, you know, and we were doing part-time and had a day job and, you know, we're trying to just juggle everything. And, uh, the beautiful part about women too, is women are so complex and they have so many

different things that they're into. Like men, we like, uh, drink beer drink beer watch tv maybe we go fishing or something i think that's pretty much barbecue that's pretty much the four things we do that's it for us you know but women are into you know makeup and moisturizer and i mean there's just a billion things they do and the beautiful thing is if women can come up with a great product like you have for health or whether it's for beauty or something, women control so much of the buying that goes out there. And so if you can create a product like that, but just for any entrepreneur, you know, look, look for those serendipity things. Ask why, why not? Why can't there be a better way? Take your pain points. And, and, you know, there's so many people that have gone, you know,

I don't like this widget doesn't work for me. I want to do it a better way? Take your pain points. And, you know, there's so many people that have gone, you know, I don't like this widget. It doesn't work for me. I want to do it a different way. So we could probably talk for hours with you, Kara, and you're wonderful. But we want people to go buy the book. So we want them to check that out as well. Anything more you want to tell us about the book before we go out? Just excited to hear what people think. And, um, you know, and, and like, as you and I were

talking about earlier, I mean, I think when I, when I birthed Hint, I felt like that was like a product that I was hearing from customers early on that it was really helping them. And, you know, sort of the early, um, feedback on the book is, you know, the same thing and really powerful. And, and it's like, you know, I'm not going to lie, like the, the idea of actually hearing that, you know, people like the writing and that it has inspired them and, you know, and all those kinds of things. I'm like, God, I should have done this sooner. Right. Like, it's like, you know, it's so great. Right. Like, it's like, you know, the fact that people are actually spending time with it, right? They could be doing other stuff.

And I don't know, maybe during a pandemic, like you actually can't figure out what else to do, but it's just awesome, right? On a lot of levels. And I think it's coming at a time too when I think you're absolutely right where 2021, I truly believe that it's going to be a year where life has slowed down, I think, for so many people, but the technology has just sped up. I mean, everything from the Zoom to even Instacart and automation and all these things. Like, I think 2021 is going to be a year of invention. And like, it will be, I don't, I'm so curious,

like we're in all different industries and all different categories. And so that could be anybody that's coming up with these ideas. And I think that it's, you know, I really do believe that they're, they're sitting there at home, like thinking of or in their car, wherever, like listening to this, it's like, I've always like wondered, you know, then go actually try and figure it out. And if nothing else, I was sharing this with a friend the other day and trying to, you know, inspire her to go do something. She was like, I don't know how to write a business plan. And I was like, do you know how to use Google? Like type in business plan. Like how do I do it? Right. Like, and if

nothing else, like for the next month, you're like figuring out how to write a business plan and you're going to be pretty darn proud of yourself that you learned how to write a business plan. Like you could go to your next party and say, I learned how to write a business plan and you're going to be pretty darn proud of yourself that you learned how to write a business plan like you could go to your next party and say i learned how to write a business plan people are right like it's just take little steps that actually get you you know to to do these things and and these things that are daunting to you to actually get you to recognize like i can do it if i choose to do it and really you know live undaunted which is the name of the book so there you go we got the full circle we got the full circle come around undaunted overcoming doubts and doubters the new book by cara golden uh

the founder and ceo of hint it's been wonderful to have you uh karen we've been friends forever on facebook so i know super nice to see you but yeah seriously everybody stop by on social at kara golden wherever i'm all over on all all these platforms not tiktok though i'm i'm actually not good at tiktok i'm not a good dancer and my teens would be horrified if I started getting on there. So I won't do that to them. So you got to get on TikTok though. I mean, like, I don't know, enlist some teens or something. You got to get on there. I look at a few things. I was, you know, watching, uh, I don't know. I get sort of a kick out of, out of watching Arizona politics. I'm from Arizona and

there's some really good ones on there. Like some of these kids like making fun of some of the stuff that goes on there. So I just, I don't know. I, I, I watch it. I just don't participate. I would, I would love to see the hint. I would love to see the hint brand on there. I think you guys can have a lot of fun with it, but I got to tell you, I, I probably need to seek rehab help. I am one of those people that i will go to bed and i'll be like i'm just gonna watch a couple tiktoks here and then like four hours later like send me some good tiktoks because my friends send me i have i have a girlfriend actually i have a girlfriend in vegas actually who is uh because

i i know you you live there sometimes and uh and yeah, she sends me really funny ones. I just like, and she does exactly what you do. She's like, she finds these ones that are, you know, I'm like, where did you find them? She's like, I don't know. I follow these. I'm like, do you ever post? No, I don't post.

I just like lurk, you know, and I find the, so I'm like that anyway. The thing that you should thing that's the thing is you should do that's kind of fun is uh they do these side by side what they call duets and like a lot of stars uh have been doing this thing where people do impressions of them like jim carrey i saw the other day so people doing impressions and so he did a duet where he watches the people and then comments i think uh one of the chefs does it too anyway he watches the wait so say this so he watches the duet like jim carrey will see a video of somebody doing a

an impression of it you know like they're doing a dumb and dumber scene or something like that and so he'll come in as a duet and so he's side by side watching the video so you can see his reaction um a guy who plays iron man I forget his name, does that. You could do some different things where you can have people do, maybe do some stuff with him. You'd probably have to seat it a little bit with some influencers, but then you come in and watch them. And it's just really fun because you're like, holy crap.

I think Kevin Bacon does some of it too. But, you know, you got to hire some of those people who are smarter than us, the 13-year-olds or something. I don't know. Yeah, I think you're right. So if you have any 13-year-old friends and they want to do it. I think the judge says I can't be around anyone who's 18 anymore or something like that.

I'm just kidding. I would. Okay, 18-year-olds. So I think it's, yeah, there's some good ones out there but i think you're right i'm i'm uh i don't think tiktok is going away now i just really it really is addictive and the the amount of creativity these people can do and even people at our age or at least my age i'm much older than you uh are are are doing kind of well i mean there's a couple of my videos that have blown up and i'm just like oh wow young kids like me um which is not my focus i'm gonna go on and and have a look at this chris yeah but you can

have some fun with hit water you know there's all sorts of marketing stuff you could do but uh where you guys are such a popular brand and people love you um i'm sure that there's there's places to put or you could you could do those duets it's really an interesting thing uh and the storytelling from such a small i think i don't know what it's a minute or something like that yeah they're telling you can do it's crazy yeah no i i agree yeah and you really have to like you know i think that for me is is of, you know, the curiosity around it and also just the other thing that I really think about a lot just in building this company too, which I think just sort of flies into this conversation is like finding people at all levels, you know, of your organization that will actually teach you, right? Like, I think like, that's another key thing that even being the CEO of a company, I, I'm constantly like, you know, asking even my, my kids, friends that are like good at TikTok or

whatever, like, how do you do that? Like, and, you know, and people are like, really, you want to do it? I'm like, yeah, I want to learn. Like, I, you know, have a pretty big presence now on Twitter. And like, I didn't know how to use it a few years ago. Now Twitter actually says like, you actually like know what you're doing. And you're one of like, whatever, top CEOs on Twitter that actually use it, you know, frequently. And I'm like, really? I still don't know what I'm doing, but I was like, you know, but again, like all these different channels, like kind of have

their own thing. Like you were just saying on, on Tik TOK and I'm so curious about them. It's really the hottest thing. And, and, uh, I don't know if you saw this recently, you may have heard it through the news vines, but on Tik TOK, there's a, one of the major influencers over there. he did a thing where he's skateboarding down the road and he's playing i believe it's dreams by fleawood mac with stevie nicks singing i saw it yeah um and he's drinking uh uh it's cranberry juice uh ocean spray and so like it goes viral and so everybody starts starts doing it. An ocean spray makes like, I don't know, five trillion bucks or something off the damn thing. And they really gave him like a truck of of ocean spray.

And, you know, so did they actually sell more ocean spray because of that? I believe I read that. But I'm always a fact checker. So, you know, i'm really curious i'm curious if like i mean they said it or like or did they just like there's so many videos that have it because everyone copied it and then it really blew up when fleet uh mac fleawood my favorite yeah when mac fleawood uh he he gets on there and he does it and then it's just like boom

it was huge but I'm so curious about that because I think that there's anyway that's a whole other when you see the product placement though because the product placement is in all the stuff and then Stevie Nicks did it and I believe Lindsey Buckingham did it so it's just

I know that it sold a ton of money for uh fleetwood mac and put them back 100 100 but i think but it's it's always anyway that's like a that's a whole other show i think like talking about you know like did people actually sell like that that or or sorry did people actually buy the product because of that like did they get more eyeballs did their social for ocean spray like blow up like i think it was incredibly smart that they you know gifted the influencers like a you know a truckload of ocean spray or whatever because they get more press off of it. But I think it's sort of the conversation

of do influencers sell products? Sometimes they do. It depends on the influencer. Like me, I never shut up about a product I love. Like Robert Scoble, he never shuts up about something he loves. If I love something, I never shut up about it. I keep talking long after I got paid. Or if I got paid's there's some products i talk about that i don't get paid for

like you know my master and dynamic headphones i'm wearing right now i love these things i've never been paid for them now i i get a bunch of it yeah but but i get a bunch of everything so but i think it's like if it's it it's always anyway it's like if it's like, if it's, it's always, anyway, it's like, if it's readily available, versus if like, for example, if you're, and you youngins who are like listening to this, you're not going to know what Varnays are, for example. Like if somebody really cool, like an influencer, just like, you know, was skateboarding with a pair of Varnays, and and like you could see the brand on the side then all of a sudden it'd be like oh my god barnes like they'd come back right versus but

i think where there's like shortage of the product i don't know like their scarcity right like that that's where i think that but i think something that is like in every single grocery store, you know, and is like, I don't know, filled with sugar and all that kind of stuff. Or like, don't get me started. Like, I don't know if actually that would really. You'd have to look into it, but I think they did. I think I saw some numbers in some of the different articles I was reading on it. Cause I've always been curious about stuff like that when it goes viral like that. Like I know when the the oh who was at

the shaving gel company and they do soaps down everything old spice you know that was the nasty old thing that my grandfather used the old uh you know man's um uh thing that they would use you know slap it on their face and i'd smell it and i'd be like that's the grossest thing ever no wonder grandma wants nothing to do with you. And so it just goes popular with these viral things. But this gives you a test market to try it. So personal care and beauty products, I believe those do sell by influencers. You know what I'm saying? I think because you're like a guy and you want a

great shave yeah right and you see the difference but it's like so anyway i think it's like you find out the answer chris because i'm i'm interested i think with your personality because your brand is is is your you have a lot of your personality in the brand and i think if you got on there you got a lot of fun we've the 40 the 40 plus crowd we've all invaded uh tiktok now and taking it back from the little squeakers and uh and uh it's just going huge with the stories you can tell and the fun you can have i'd love to i would have to block my kids though like they block me from there so i'd have to block them back just to like not allow them to kind of see what i do you know what's funny i there's a uh one mom that i follow she she did some really funny political things uh that you've probably seen on my facebook stories i i flood them all into my

facebook stories and uh she opened a tiktok account just to spy on her kids to make sure they're okay. And you know, nothing bad's going on or any creeps are hunting them down. She, she recently got more popular than her kids on TikTok. She has more followers. And were they just pissed? Yeah,

they're pissed. They're like, they're like, she's like, I started the account just to, you know, keep an eye on them. And,

you know, I didn't mean to become an influencer that's hysterical you have to tell me who this is i gotta look yeah i'll send you some links we'll talk after the after the show i'll send you the links and stuff but i think it would be a great opportunity for hit water especially with your personality because you can get on there and and pitch and sell. And it's just when you really think about like, I mean, the sugar that's in cranberry juice aside, most people that consume cranberry juice are people that are older a little bit like me that are like trying to get through a hangover and we're drinking cranberry juice to get the liver working and kidney working again, you know. And so it just opened, I i think that brand up to a whole

younger market so there you go there you go i gotta yeah a bunch of kids like and they're not loyal at all they'll switch tomorrow right no they're they will they're like they should switch over to hint but they're they won't they they're not, you know, that's, that's a generation. That's a whole other one, you know? So listen, I got my own focus group at home. I know Gen Z's they're coming. And there's zero loyalty. Wow. Wow.

Like it, none. They, they, you heard it here. Like not to a plat they're, they're not loyal to any social platform the minute that you know me and my friends infiltrate tiktok and you know now that chris is on there like they'll all be gone the next new one comes in and then also you know they're not loyal to clothing at all in fact like the more the less of a brand it is the better yeah right like it's like way cooler you know and like also if it's a lot of money or if like uh pete davidson wears it on saturday night live it's like way way cooler right then then uh and but again and then it'll change next week like it's like oh i don't like that one

anymore i'm like man like we're all in trouble there's like we're all talking about loyalty and you know lifetime value and all those things it's like they're the most unpredictable like culture and it's like and again it is what it is like and again, it is what it is. Like, it's like, it is what it is. But I, I swear, I'm like, you know, I live it every single day. And I, and I know it's coming. There you go. Well, more, more problems for entrepreneurs to solve. There you go. There you go. I love it. Thanks for being on the show with us, Kara. We certainly appreciate it. It's been a wonderful, fun discussion with having you on. Super, super fun.

Stay safe and well, and we'll hopefully catch up with you again. And everybody come and visit me on social and hope you like the book. There you guys go. Pick up some hint water. Give it the thing. Let me give it the model hand swipe. There you go. There you go.

There you go. that was my previous life and uh on uh shows and uh kara golden uh undaunted overcoming doubts and doubters pick it up at amazon or your local retailers to my audience to see the video version is you've been listening the audio version on podcasts go to the chris foss show uh on facebook.com, YouTube. It's YouTube.com, 4S Chris Voss. Goodreads.com, 4S Chris Voss. You can see my book reviews over there and stuff that I'm reading. Also go to thecvpn.com

or chrisfosspodcastnetwork.com. Subscribe to all the free podcasts for an unlimited time. Thanks so much for tuning in. Stay safe. Wear your mask. We'll see you guys next time.