The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Unlocking Relationship Secrets: Communication, Childhood Patterns, and Dating Advice with Michelle Bohls

Episode Date: January 27, 2025

Unlocking Relationship Secrets: Communication, Childhood Patterns, and Dating Advice with Michelle Bohls Michellebohls.com About the Guest(s): Michelle Bohls is a seasoned licensed marriage and family therapist with over 15 years of experience in her field. Prior to her therapeutic practice, Michelle worked with executives to help them navigate career changes and build effective teams. She is part of an international faculty teaching "Imago," a system of relationship intelligence based on the bestselling book "Getting the Love You Want" by Harville Hendrix and Helen Kelley Hunt. Michelle is deeply passionate about exploring topics such as intuition, money relationships, and romantic connections. Her insights into human interactions have helped countless individuals and couples lead more fulfilling lives. Episode Summary: In this enlightening episode of The Chris Voss Show, host Chris Voss welcomes Michelle Bohls, an expert in relationship intelligence, to discuss the core principles of building sustainable and meaningful relationships. Michelle shares insights from her extensive experience as a marriage and family therapist and touches on themes from the book "Getting the Love You Want." As the conversation unfolds, listeners are treated to a deep dive into understanding the dynamics of personal belief systems, communication challenges, and childhood influences that impact adult relationships. Michelle's expertise provides invaluable guidance for couples and singles alike, offering strategies to foster healthier connections. The episode covers essential topics surrounding relationship dynamics and personal growth. Through candid discussions, Chris and Michelle address common pitfalls in communication and the unconscious belief systems that often dictate our emotional responses and relational patterns. Michelle underscores the importance of understanding unmet needs rooted in childhood experiences, which she likens to a GPS guiding individuals' life choices. This knowledge empowers listeners to embark on a journey of self-discovery, offering them the tools to make more conscious and rewarding relationship decisions. Key Takeaways: Understanding Relationship Dynamics: Recognizing the influence of childhood experiences and unmet needs on adult relationships is crucial for fostering meaningful connections. Communication as a Skill: Effective communication is more about genuine listening and understanding rather than just solving problems or fulfilling one's own agenda. Belief Systems and Personal Development: Our belief systems, developed early on, play a significant role in how we perceive relationships and navigate life changes. Navigating Modern Dating Challenges: The current dating culture involves overcoming option overload and focusing on genuine connections instead of superficial interactions. Building Awareness and Initiating Change: A conscious approach to relationships, supported by tools such as therapy or workshops, can significantly improve personal and relational well-being. Notable Quotes: "Most couples are struggling with an attitude problem… You should be perfect. You should meet all my needs." - Michelle Bohls "Understanding what shaped us early on, what are these needs that were not met… that is operating like a GPS." - Michelle Bohls "Relationships are supposed to be a team sport… when love shows up fully ready to meet your needs, you're like, hmm, no, I gotta pass." - Michelle Bohls "We unconsciously create our greatest fears… we recreate the patterns that we lived through early on unconsciously." - Michelle Bohls "A weekend workshop is great… uncover the trauma buried pretty deep and work through it in a supportive environment." - Michelle Bohls

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hey, folks. It's Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com. Oh, my gosh. Welcome to the show. We certainly appreciate it, ladies and gentlemen. as always, the Chris Voss Show is the family that loves you but doesn't judge you. Not at least not as harshly as the rest of your family because, you know, they know you. We don't know you as well enough to hate you.

So we still accept you on the Chris Voss Show, but remember, we don't loan you money. Why is it such a complicated thing you have to do there at the beginning, Chris? I don't know. It's the ramble. We just make something up every time. Today we'll be talking about a wonderful young lady and her insights and how she can help you get the love you want, build better relationships. I finally got the love I want after years and years and years. It's called two husky dogs because I'm largely unlovable, but you all know that after 16 years and 2200 episodes. Go to goodreads.com, 4ris fuss linkedin.com fortress chris

bus chris fos one the tick tockety and all those crazy places those kids are on the internet so doing weird things uh today michelle bulls joins us on the show she's part of an internet international faculty teaching a system of relationship intelligence called imago did i get that right that's right yeah there we go I mean I flunk second grade it's based off a best-selling book by Harville Hendricks and Helen La Kelly hunt called getting the love you want and it was a book that came out well I guess a while there's a third edition that just came out in 2019 that's been updated has a 13,903 rate 4.0 rating on

goodreads and about 2,600 on amazon how does goodreads wow goodreads really loves that book but i guess technically i guess technically amazon owns it now jeff bezos owns everything pretty much including me at this point yeah i'm currently getting shocks in my chair telling me i need to order from Amazon again. It's been five minutes. So anyway, we're going to be talking to her about her insights and what goes on the show. She's practiced as a licensed marriage and family therapist for the last 15 years. And prior to that, she worked with executives to navigate career changes or build effective teams. She is passionate about intuition, her relationship with money, or our relationship with money.

Probably hers too. It's all money. She is passionate about intuition her relationship with money or our relationship with money probably hers to It's all money relate relational ways to lead and sell and of course romantic relationships I like how money plays into that. Well, I'm the show. How are you Michelle? I'm great. This is so fun Thank you We do a little bit of fun on the show So Michelle give us your dot-com so where do you want people to get to know you better on the interwebs? MichelleBowles.com. It's B-O-H-L-S.com. And you can find everything there. So give us a 30,000 overview of what you do. And I guess there's an incorporation of this book as well. well yeah the book kind of kicked everything off and it's great if you are in a relationship and

you're wanting to understand like what the heck is going on why do we keep getting stuck what can we do about it but then we we really take like what we understand about all relationships and apply it much more broadly to into people looking for love, leadership, business relationships. You know, I read your chapter 15 about your experience with your like the betrayal by your partner. That was that was a fun one. Right. And it's like and so just trying to understand, like, why do relationships go wrong? And why do they keep going wrong in the same way for me? Like that is an interesting question. relationships go wrong and why do they keep going wrong in the same way for me?

Like that is an interesting question. And so that's really what I do is I train therapists to work with couples and individuals, business coaches, life coaches, or managers, like just understanding what is going on in relationships. And I like how you bring up the term lead. Tell us how that applies to what we're talking about today. Well, so we have to start with the individual person and this idea, this premise that we are created by our experiences. We're created by the people in our life early on that creates us. And then we create our world. We see the world as we are. So if we are, have a part of ourselves that was never developed,

we can't really see that we're doing that. We like, there was an example of somebody, you know, big leader walking down the hall, not making eye contact with people. That's because they were just in their head thinking about it. They didn't know that that they were having an impact on yeah I mean

sometimes you get caught up in your own sort of you know what you're worrying about what you're thinking about and eye contact is you know as a leader you need to connect with people you need to connect with your people and also you know I used to call it the touching the hearts and minds and nature I said I couldn't call it that anymore after a while but I used to call it the touching the hearts and minds and HR said I couldn't call it that anymore after a while. But I used to call it as checking in and touching the hearts and minds of my employees. And so I would check in with them. You know, sales salespeople can be very volatile. And so but yeah, that's part of leadership.

Does the leadership that you're talking about, does that apply to maybe masculine frame or feminine polarity? I don't know. I don't know if I understand your question. Can you say more? So a lot of women are looking usually for men who lead in a masculine sense. So they want a guy who plans a date. They want a guy who takes initiative and then usually helps plan a life, et cetera, et cetera. They like a man who will lead i wasn't sure if that's maybe what you talk about when you talk about in the context of leading

yeah well it can be it all depends on the individual and like and where they're coming from a lot of times men have trouble functioning in that way because of belief systems they have that are mostly unconscious like it can feel humiliating or like you know i'm i'm being controlled or i'm being manipulated or i'm even being used and so if you're have that belief system then you you're like no i don't want to plan a date that feels like it doesn't feel like it's about me at all it feels like it's just serving you right and so what what we're wondering about when i'm working with anyone it's like well what are these belief systems and where are they coming from because those are more powerful than anything and they really shape us don't they yeah yeah because because what's there's a saying I'm not sure if I'm gonna be a pull it here but

there's a saying that basically what you believe is what you are I think there it is I just found it um sometimes you just gotta swing the bat and you know see if you connect it's how it works folks sometimes you strike out but yeah what you believe is what you are i mean you know it's two people can go to a party i think this is i pull this from anthony robbins but two people can go to a party one person can come away and they can be like oh that was the greatest party ever i focused on all these people are having fun because i believe that parties are fun and yada yada yada and and then someone can come away from that same exact party and be like, oh, it was an awful party.

I saw people standing around looking unhappy and miserable. And a lot of what we shape with our beliefs is kind of rose-colored glasses, right? Yeah, exactly. That's exactly it. So if we don't question our paradigm and our beliefs, we unconsciously create our greatest fears. We recreate the patterns that we lived through early on unconsciously. So it's really, you know, helping people become more conscious about these patterns, their relationship patterns. Yeah.

Do you find that, what about trauma and stuff now trauma is a big thing shaping childhood blueprints as well you know what's the relationship your parents had if they had a relationship if you had a father or mother in the home uh tell us a little bit how that sometimes shapes these belief systems at center center well what's interesting about trauma is that this like 10 people can have the same experience and have like you said like the party and and some people have trauma from it and some people don't you know trauma lands in our system differently based on how old we are based on other resiliency factors you know it, trauma, whether there's trauma or not, what we really are wondering about is what do you believe? And one of the challenges with that

is that we think we believe one thing and our actions show that we believe something else. So I can say, I believe I'm worthy. I'm worthy of a great person in my life but then when i accept behavior from them that is treating me like i'm not worthy and i'm afraid i'm not worthy like that's really the belief that's operating yeah and i've seen people that believe they're worthy but they haven't done the work in in in the work in fixing their traumas and everything else. And I imagine that's a lot of it. So what do you find most relationships, you use the book, Getting the Love You Want, A Guide for Couples. When you're helping couples, what do you find they're mostly struggling with these days? What's a popular theme that you find?

Every couple will say they're struggling with communication. Oh. I mean, that's pretty much what every couple comes in. Really? Yeah. And they'll think they're pretty good communicators. Even they think they're both pretty good communicators. But when they actually learn how to slow down and listen in a more deeper way,

not jumping to their stories or owning their stories. Then like new information is coming up after being together for 30 years. They're like, Oh wow. Like something new is here. So communication is important. I would say that honestly, what most couples are struggling with is an attitude problem. Ah, here we go. Which is that you should be perfect. You should be perfect.

You should meet all my needs. You're not meeting my needs. And so then I go into one of my defensive strategies I I withdraw I attack I fawn or I freeze and now we've lost our connection yeah because of my story about who you should be you know there's an old saying that well there's a couple of sayings that you can kick around but the one thing the one thing i i don't know if i can mount it right but basically the the one thing men want from a woman is we don't want her to change when we marry her but usually when women marry a man they've got a whole plan for him to change i mean i've witnessed that firsthand in my relationships. And, you know, thereby it goes. I mean, I've heard relationship people, professionals say, you should marry the person that you think you're marrying and not the person you think you want them to be.

And then, you know, another thing that I heard a long time ago, and this really helped me with relationships, was find someone whose number one quality and priority in life, their highest value in a relationship, is integrity. And if you get someone who has integrity, it will solve its own problems because they go, I want to do right by you,

or I want to do right by us, I guess if it's a relationship, and so I'm willing to do the work because I have the integrity to do things right and do things with an ethic that you know there's a certain ethic that you have if you're going to build something I'll tell a lot of singles I'm like it be a builder and find a person who wants to build and build with them and that's that's really the difference. And a lot of people, you know, they're just interested in short term gain. You know, they just want a one

day stand or hookup culture nowadays, or, you know, they just want to chase people out of their league and they don't see the big picture. You know, a lot of the relationships that, you know, I see a lot of my guy friends that are now 20 and 30 relationships. So I have a blueprints to work with and talk to them about. And, you know, they've been through ups and downs and hard times. Some of them have been through really hard times and their, their wife is stuck by them. And sometimes it's been shared where, you know, they each take turns on the, on the, on the wheel of life that throws you the curve balls, but they stick together and they work through it and they don't quit because they're builders. You know, you don't, a builder doesn't build a house

when you pay him. He doesn't go build a house. And then halfway through, he's like, yeah, you know, this, uh, this whole house works a whole lot of work. I don't want to do this anymore. Right? No, I, I love this. I a hundred percent agree. I was working with a group of women this weekend and I told them, if you have a partner who is willing to do the work with you, I'm sorry, but you should probably stick it out unless there's something really dangerous going on. You should probably stick it out. And yeah, I agree that integrity, but I just want to go back to what you're saying about like, you know, women want men to change and men want women to not change. But I think kind of both of like that's a it's a polarizing thing. Right. And and the reality is, is you and I would know if we bought a business that some things are going to have to change.

And I got to figure out what is at the core that I don't want to change. And so it's best if that couple would work together and say, well, some things are going to change and some things aren't. And how do we decide how to navigate that? I think that most of us have an attitude problem because we grew up in the school system. Tell us about that some more. Yeah, the school system. You went to a more yeah the school system like i don't you went just like a traditional school chris yeah i did yeah so how old were you when you got your first grade do you think some kind of mark i mean would that been i think you've been in kindergarten or yeah i mean technically i gave i think they gave you like a behavior sort of like checks or

something right yeah it was like it was like were you good or bad or evil and exactly that's exactly it so how old are you when you start putting the world in categories of good bad and evil how old probably three or four right too young to question that so it becomes our base level of programming that we are going to be judged, assessed, categorized, and sorted by how good we are. It's not like, oh, I need to work harder or something. It's like it becomes a value judgment on us. And then of course we have to defend ourselves. And so we enter into a relationship trying to see, are you going to give me an A or are you going to judge me? And we're not on the same team at that point. Now I've given away some power to you to determine my

value and then I'm determining your value. It's just the whole thing is in this competitive paradigm of win, lose, compare, compete. And obviously relationships don't do well that way. Yeah, I've seen some people that, and, you know, my experiences with women, because that's who I date, so I'm sorry I don't have the experience of the other side, but I've seen people, and I don't know that men do it, because I understand men's nature of being a man very well, but I've seen where some women really believe that somehow competing with us as men will drive us to achieve more and be better. And it's really an irritant in the marketplace. It's really a belief system that you talk about

that when men come home from work and battling and doing everything, we're looking for feminine peace. We're not looking to do battle acts, armed fights in the living room with, you know. Yeah, of course. Yeah, you want harmony. This is where you're supposed to bring me peace, not more battles. And I am amazed at how many women, I to pick on women but i mean just in using this example scenario you know this belief system that i mean they've actually said to me you know well it's it makes it better you know it makes it competitive no that's what you think you like

and you do it because you're operating you're masculine that's your problem actually yeah so yeah but i but i've seen the other side too Like if you as a leader in your business came and demanded peace, then all the problems that need some attention are not going to get to your desk. Yeah, that's true. So so that can happen in the relationship. We have to do both. And we have to have harmony and peace when we need it. And we have to sit down and and make sure everybody is having their needs addressed yeah and probably i don't know you tell me probably to if you're

going to communicate try and do it in a peaceful manner because certainly you know if i sit down with somebody and i go we need to talk and we we have some issues. And here's some of my thoughts. Let's hear your thoughts. That's much different than me using extortion or using quiet, what was it called? Quiet time out where you go, I'm just going to go pout. I'm just going to go pout and hope that he figures out that I'm angry with him. Meanwhile, he's just enjoying his peace. Yeah.

We just got Chris. We do need more tools. We do. But I'm going to suggest that when you come and you say, hey, we need to talk that most people get scared because that means I'm in trouble. So if you sit down, you say, hey, I think I need to listen. I think that there's something going on here and I need to listen. And I'm wondering if you could help me understand if you're really satisfied with what's happening in our relationship.

Yeah. Most people would be like, oh, you want to listen to me? Wow. Okay. And, you know, sometimes, too, is the biggest challenge in the communication is saying what you actually mean because i've certainly been in a lot of conversations of the because i i tend to in my relationships get the we need to talk phone call at work you know i'm always in trouble for something i i'm really i i'm i'm a heinous person in relationships i leave my socks and underwear on the floor i am the serial killer of socks and floors okay okay good to know the toilet ladies you've been

forewarned i am a serial felonious toilet seat lever upper i'm probably doing might do it on purpose though who knows anyway um so i get that i get that we need to talk thing a lot and i go oh we need to talk okay great well i've I go, oh, we need to talk. Okay, great. I have some things I'll write down, too, because I want to talk about some things, too. And it's kind of interesting how that flips the script on it. But, you know, it's being able to talk about things and listen to each other. And really, sometimes it's not about the topic that's being brought up.

No, it's never been about the topic. No. At least not with women. Men will directly tell you. It's about our deeper needs, and it's particularly about the needs that were not met growing up. Ah, there we go. Back to the childhood blueprints.

Yep, yep. That we bring in these unmet needs that we're very unconscious about, and we have built all kinds of fancy things around them so that we don't know about any of that vulnerable stuff. And we overfunction in these different areas. But we always are seeking to get that need met. So like what I'm hearing from you, Chris, is one of your needs is peace. And so I would make up a story that there wasn't peace in your early home and that you were harmed by that and so you're unconsciously it's just a story right but that you'd be unconsciously

seeking to take a very high energy expressive person and get them to give you peace that's just a theory yeah and you're right it's actually that actually was my childhood experience and actually probably over correct in relationships or people that i seek for people and give me peace now that is a innate desire of masculinity and men we want peace i mean that's just how we roll we go to war all day long in nine to five. When we come home, we want peace. That's why we seek the feminine. Well, and your nervous systems are built to fire very quickly and very intensely at any sign of danger or threat or problem. So it makes sense that you can't really relax unless we're able to clear away those problems.

Yeah, especially if people around me are in fight and flight mode, which a lot of people with trauma and damage, you know, Unless we're able to clear away those problems. important point is is bringing it home is is a lot of this comes from childhood trauma and unless it's resolved you know you you see the world through a different lens when you have your childhood trauma resolved and partially you see everyone else's trauma and you're like nah i ain't getting near me anymore not doing that again 50 years of that was so i did my time i'm out you can you can you can have fun go see a. That's why I just hand out cards like yours. Go see a family professional therapist's license. No, stop buying crystals and go get some fucking help. So let's talk about, we talked about in the prior show about how I run dating groups and

give people dating coaching and advice. And, you know, I've been trying to, we've been trying to, with our dating groups, bring people back to in-person dating and in meeting up and stuff as opposed to these dating apps that you know they're trillion dollar companies that have no interest in getting you into a relationship they just want to run you around in circles yeah on their little thing yeah good luck so i mean which which is you know most of my experience is spirit Rhino in Las Vegas. I like how I wrote that and was able to get that pulled off cleanly.

Anyway, so we talked a little bit in the green room before the show about how to help single people find what they want. Do you have some ideas on that or some thoughts? Well, I think you hit it right on the head, which is that we have to first understand what shaped us early on. What are these needs that were not met? You know, what did we get needs for protection, for peace, for safety, for being valued, for being seen, heard? You know, whatever this is and understand that that is operating like a gps i think a previous guest was using the gps it's like a metaphor to guide us in a car and they were saying like your purpose is your gps but what really programs the gps is your unmet need that is driving far more than people realize. So we choose careers. We choose partners.

We choose people because on some level we think, oh, you're enough like the people that hurt me, but slightly different. And now I'm going to get a different result. Yeah. Let me ask you this. You're a licensed psychologist. You've gone in and studied all this stuff. I heard a long time ago, and I think I've heard some validation of it over the years, is that what we do as children is we see the experience that we have, the blueprints that

our parents give us. And however that relationship was, we see the failures of it, the fallacies of it, the things that maybe didn't go well in it. And a lot of people, what they try and do when they go into their relationships after they grow up is they try and form the same sort of relationship blueprint their parents had, but they try and fix the holes. They try and fill the holes. And the problem is, is nine times out out of ten if you're creating the same scenario with the same sort of damaged trauma

undeveloped people That had the the reason they had those problems is because of that and if you're using that same sort of model to try and Fix it all you're not gonna get different results. You're gonna get the same results Yeah, and a lot so I don't know if you but that's where the juice is you know the juice comes out of the gum fast if that person is not the kind of crazy that you wanted to fix as a child ah so that explains most of my relationships i've been searching for crazy for a lot of years my mom's like how come you always find these crazy chicks? And then I looked at her and I went, oh, shit.

Yeah, that's where the juice is. Yeah. So when you're dating, it's really important to understand that the crazy, passionate chemistry, energy that you think is telling you, you know, like, you know, here, set up camp here. Actually, is, I mean, unless that person's willing to do the work with you. Yeah. You're just going to hit another wall. And then, yeah. is you're just going to hit another wall and and then yeah and most people aren't equipped for that because you've usually chosen a partner who has that sort of trauma and damage too yeah and so

that's hot chris that's hot yeah we'll get into that in here and say yeah i always liken that to like the the trauma bonding sort of stuff i always liken that to like oh you got a box of broken glass i got a box of razor blades. Let's mix them and play. We'll just roll in it together because that's love. That's love. So this is where we get to dating advice, which is you're talking about like hookup culture and everything. start mix and spit and, you know, we're having sex really early. We, all the chemicals in our body say attach, attach to this person. And it, we lose the ability to discern whether this actually

is going to be a good relationship. If they do have integrity, if they're going to be a good teammate. At the beginning, all the chemicals disguise all that. And, and everybody looks way better than they're going to look 18 months later. Oh yeah. I mean, it's everybody creates kind of this panacea in their mind to this perfect person and they meet them.

And, you know, I mean, I've even heard it from, you know, I, I've decided that next time I get in a relationship, I'm going to videotape everything she says for the first,

uh, for the first little while so that I can have as proof in the Q&A. You know, you're a Superman. I love everything you do. You're amazing. You know, a year and a half later, I'm the worst piece of shit in the world. But that's just because she figured it all out. Oh, it's just that relationships are supposed to be a team sport. Yeah.

And our culture says, you know, you thought you bought the perfect toaster. It got a dent in it. Throw it out. Buy a new one. Yeah, just skip to the next. The culture isn't telling us how to create the kind of sustainable long-term partnership that we're longing for. Yeah. I can't tell you how many singles I talk to who think that hookup culture is somehow going to lead them to successful long-term relationships. I know.

I have so many women that I know I'm like, stop, stop, stop. Just keep dating. Keep dating a few more people. Do not act like you're married. It's too soon. It's too soon. He hasn't asked you to marry him like let him be a man and decide when he wants a commitment you don't need to decide that

you're committed yeah uh and then one thing you you kind of alluded to i'm going to hop back to a few minutes ago some people get turned on by the that crazy chase of it because they love the drama so they know it's not but chris i want to add to that it's not they do love the drama yes but the juice is there because there was drama as a child they had to chase down love and that's their blueprint that's their pattern so the when love shows up fully ready to meet your needs you're like no i gotta pass i want to go after that person who seems completely uninterested because that's what my brain is familiar with yeah this plane's dating right there should we go to date together chris i'll be in your ear and i'll tell you like uh chris no no this is about i i reject like 95 of my coffee dates anyway so i i do that um yeah because

there's no juice there well like you're not crazy enough you are not going to break my peace you are not going to give me harmony well i mean i think my biggest problem in dating is abilities so a lot of people come with a lot of liabilities and I've done a lot of I've done the work to clean up my life and I've I'm out done the hard fucking work deal with all my childhood trauma my brain damage I don't know people listening the show right now and going he still has trauma he's walking trauma some people say but the but there's a lot of liabilities yeah a lot of liabilities i mean as a man you know in a world where my money is her money and her money is her money that's kind of the thing women say nowadays no it is i find that incredibly

horrible like that's just isn't it crazy and you know you're like no when you're in a relationship you share you share money but you know you see women brag about that on the thing and so trusting people is really hard especially around money yeah yeah and so you see that in the in the marketplace but you know as a man when you do come into a relationship you you take over certain things especially if you're expected to lead. And so we're required to take over things. And a lot of people that are single, women, at least from my, you know, like I said, this comes from my angle, folks. I don't date guys, so I don't know what you guys experience over there.

And I wouldn't want to either. But, you know, if a woman has multiple baby daddies, you know, a lot of problems I see nowadays is, I mean, somebody who has multiple baby daddies. And what a lot of people don't realize is those people are in your relationships. I found that the hard way in relationships is, you know, the ex-husband, the ex-boyfriend, hopefully there's just one. You know, they have problems. I've left women over that I just can't deal with the baby daddies and their drama and the problems that they bring to the relationship and it's just weird because you're just sitting there going you know i'm not getting any benefit from this person i'm

not sleeping with them they're not making me breakfast in the morning like i get nothing from this person other than grief and hell yeah yeah you know john you've learned you've learned over time and then you see a lot of people that they have they have like really massive amounts of other than grief and hell. Yeah, yeah. You know, John didn't pay us. So you've learned. You've learned over time. And then you see a lot of people that they have, they have like really massive amounts of debt. The child, they got upset out on their car loans. They got, you know, $50,000 and $100,000 in loans with, what is it, college and stuff.

That sounds so seductive, Chris. It is. It's making my nipples hard right now. Yeah, that would seduce you. You'd be like wow i could be the hero i could rescue them i could save the distressed damsel i burn my i burn my captain savior cape a long time ago i burned that sucker to the ground but i mean it's you know there's there's people for those people you know if you've got kids and they've got kids and you

got to work it out but where i don't bring those amount of liabilities uh and debts to the thing you just have to look at people i mean it's part of what you bring to the table you know i've had very rich friends your due diligence just like you're buying a business like you're gonna assess that business you're gonna say wow too many liabilities i don't think that's the business for me yeah that's not the relationship for me yeah i mean the problem is is your unconscious programming may talk you out of that and may tempt you not me okay good good i don't i don't i don't play suicide missions in your dating club we wanna we want you to understand you gotta have a good policy

and if your policy is no baby daddies no ex no exes no small children then you that you just like no no harm do it just move move on don't get seduced into oh this is different. Yeah. And, you know, in some people, they do get captured, men get captured by that Savior thing. We kind of have that whole, oh, protect you and save you. Oh, well, we love to be saved, don't we? I mean, no one saves me, but I haven't found a guy who'll do that yet. You said you do not want to date men. You've been very clear.

Yeah, so I don't get that issue. I have to be the savior. What are some other, you know, one thing I talk about in this is there's data. The data shows that on dating apps, 95% of women are chasing the top percentage of men. And the top 5% to 1% of men, the chat chasing we see is huge in hookup culture. I mean, I have whole rooms full of guys where 90% of them are dating and the few percentage that are going through about 50 women a month. And we're not talking dating, dating.

We're talking about Netflix and chill come over and do the same thing in my practice. Do you really? So what's it, what advice do you have for women and maybe men to, you know, if you want something better to chase something better that you can get and that it can be healthy for you long term if you want to build? Well, I think the paradigm is so critical. Like you said, you're looking for integrity, right? You're not looking for these other factors i feel like so many people when they're dating they are looking it's like almost a grading system it's like sort analyze who's the best and i'm the best and let's we need the best yeah you, and the reality is, is that you need to just go in trying to learn more about people and look for what's, you know, just look at who they are and have a conversation.

A lot of people become more or less attractive after a conversation. You know, one thing that's interesting to me is I come from the old world, as I call it now, dating. I'm like Charlton Heston who just landed in space and I'm like, why are there all monkeys here and dating? And what I mean by that is this hookup culture thing. Because I'm used to taking a woman on two to three dates to figure out who she is, vet her. She's going to vet me as well. And there's kind of an interesting thing that happens when you date that way is your

bodies talk to each other. There's a lot of, there's millions of cues that go on in person that don't go on over texts and don't go on over the things. And a lot of that builds the simpatico or builds connection or finds connection and so sometimes you know you take a person on our first date they're a little bit nervous you know maybe a little choppy you know and then sometimes you do on a second date and you know everyone's settled in a little bit better and you can kind of find each other there are times where i've been on a date with somebody second or third date and sometimes it's a moment we're not talking i think that's kind of interesting that i tell people i go a lot of times when i figure

out that i'm clicking with somebody and i feel really comfortable and i feel that relationship sort of blanket kicking in is when we're not talking so sometimes we'll be walking and holding hands and we're not saying anything. Sometimes I'll be sitting in the theater watching a movie, and we're holding hands, or I've got my arm around her, and we're not saying anything. And all of a sudden I'll feel my body talking to me, or our bodies talking to each other, I call it,

where you go, I feel really safe here. I feel really comfortable with this person. I feel like I have a level of trust with them there's there's you know and you don't always have that like sometimes you'll just be like you know it's just trying to put the the the square peg in the round hole if you had that toy when you're a kid and you can all find the only fence too anyway i'm sure what that means but you know and so you you you feel that simpatico but sometimes you don't feel it until the second or third date. And one thing I kind of knock my single folks over the head over is that if you're going out, you know, we've created this dating apps and Facebook has become this Amazon shopping world.

Yeah. Where we just think that, okay, well, I can just have a relationship delivered by Amazon. It'll show up at the door and everything will be perfect. Yeah. Where we just think that, okay, well, I can just have a relationship delivered by Amazon. It'll show up at the door and everything will be perfect. Yeah. And so we look to these pictures of people and we left swipe on them and we really have no idea who they are. No. And to me. And the problem, can I just add to that?

It's so important, Chris. problem is and especially if you have a good imagination which like visionaries entrepreneurs creative people do it's much easier to wrap them in fantasy when we are not actually spending time together the more time we spend texting or calling on the phone the more our brain is coming up with a huge fantasy because we don't see the world as it is. We see the world as we are. Oh, you know, and I would say you should be dating people at least 10 or 12 dates before you stop dating anyone else. I don't know if I know. I know it takes a lot of discipline. So you will wind up making far less mistakes.

So in the long run, you will get there faster. No. Well, I don't know. I don't know about that. Because a mistake is costly, Chris. It costs you years. Well, the thing is, and I agree with you there. A lot of, especially men that I talk to, because I don't talk to a lot of women about this.

But for a lot of men, it is the most important decision you'll ever make in your life. Especially as a man, because you'll pay for it. It'll affect every area of your life. Yeah, yeah. And you can't find anybody to clean up your mess as a man. You have to clean up your own mess as a man. It's the old Godfather line. Men can't afford to make mistakes.

Women and children can make mistakes. men can't afford to make mistakes women and children can make mistakes men can't afford to make mistakes although i would i would say women do need to be careful with the mistakes they want to make because those can shape their lives but they can always find a man to help them out yeah you can't just i want to reiterate this idea that our gps is programmed by our unmet need not not our purpose, vision, goal, fantasy, whatever. It is programmed by that. And so it takes a lot of time to determine if this person can help you clean up your mess. Like the best relationship would be that we work together to clean up both of our messes right but it's hard to tell that because our gps is going to lead us down this other road so maybe is it good to talk to someone like you to try and identify what are my needs what are the holes i'm trying to fill because maybe i don't think a lot of people do that no they don't because

no one told us no one told us that our unmet need was that important they're like you survived your childhood go go to school get a job build a business pick a career and your death the deficits in your nurturing have nothing to do with anything but it actually has everything to do with everything. Everyone unconsciously chooses their career based on their deficits, their need deficits. Wow. Now, one thing we talked about or that you mentioned about. A big statement. Yeah, yeah.

I hope it's right. You're the psychologist, damn it. It sounded good. I'm just the amateur knight over here. But, yeah, a lot of people try and fill those holes And oh the one thing you talked about was one thing that makes me very frustrated with today's dating world, too So what I see is I see these people and and they're kind of handicapped because they grew up in the texting world But you mentioned about how people build this fantasy about someone when they're not around them in person

Yeah, so, you know, I'm an old world dater. I date in person how I've adapted to texting is I'll text someone off a dating app or face. I'll get a feel for if there's attraction Attraction is a big deal if woman's attracted to you. She'll talk to you. You're gonna have an interaction, you know And so I look for that feedback. You've got to have genuine attraction. And so a lot of guys will try and hammer and nail and steal. Oh, we're back to that peg. Yeah, we're back to that peg.

It's not only fans' references here, folks. Anyway, but they'll try and force attraction by showing women their shiny cars or money, or they'll try and just belabor her, overwhelm her DMs, her text messaging, and, well, I'll just convince her to love me and have attraction to me. You can't buy attraction. No. So I usually look for a little bit of feedback. It usually takes about six to eight messages.

I use voice messages, too too so people can hear my voice and that makes it yeah that's important it really does a great voice very sexy yeah i mean i i can seduce a lot of women over text messaging i bet oh my gosh how much testosterone you got over there buddy i've even had some women that are like friends of mine and they're like can we just keep talking because i just i know right you have a great like no you're a friend of mine i'm not doing that yeah no attraction's critical but it's only the first step yeah but but so what i do is as soon as i know that there's attraction there i ask for a phone number i take them to coffee we don't fuck around i'm not going to spend i'm not going to spend 50 000 messages talking to people agree. It's a total waste of time.

Total waste of time. In fact, probably counterproductive. And today, you know, a lot of people use filtered photos. They use fake photos. Oh, those are so scary, too. So, to me, I got to be. I do have my filter on. I'll be honest.

Yeah. I do, too, because I'm actually a troll in real life. And I look like a troll. Most people know that. But part of the thing is these people like like I'll meet guys and gals and they'll be like I'll be like so what's going on with you know the person you're kind of got into and like oh we're in our texting phase like what the fuck is a texting phase and they're like well it's where you text for three or four months and then you finally go out i'm like what dangerous i mean i had one gal tell me that a guy texted her for five years

good morning good night all that sim stuff that simps do just using her lonely that's horrible yeah before you finally asked her out she she said chris he he texted me for five years before he finally asked me on a date how was she even still single that lady needed to move on anyway i don't know but i'll send her i'll send her your number they should do your number she can work with you because you bring up a good point and so all and the problem is this texting thing and and i think it's bigger for women because you guys keep a lot of that stuff in your head, that fantasy in your head. Yeah, that's not real. And they just build up this person.

Yeah. And sometimes it's the chads that they're like, I think I'm finally turning him. I can convert him. You know, I've seen the Facebook. There's a Facebook page now called Are We Dating the Same Guy? Yes, I'm naive. Remember, I'm naive. Remember, I'm naive. Stop exposing me to this.

Well, we're probably exposing a few people on the show to this. And really what they are is there are ways to try and isolate the chads, figure out who's dating the same chad they are, and try and isolate them sometimes by spreading scurrilous sort of things. I've seen that. Oh, my God. It's kind of crazy. It's a brutal world out there today.

And I tell people, I'm like, knock all that texting off. Go on a freaking date. Go to coffee and get them on or off. I mean, you don't even in today's world, you don't know if you're talking to a 10,000 pound dude in Nigeria who's you know, you don't know who's who anymore.

Maybe that's what I'm into. You really don't. Well, I mean, if you're into that, I don't mean to kink shame anybody. So God bless you and go forward. But I don't know. No, but you're just so right. We need to be in person. We need to actually meet. And we need to know that there's attraction.

That's really critical. In person. Because you can build the biggest fantasy in your head about people, and I might have been guilty of that as a man. And then you meet them, and you jump the hell out of your shoes and into space. I've had that happen on dates where I'm like, holy crap. You know, sometimes they posted pictures of their youth when they were in high school. And I hear men and women both do this from what I hear. So, you know, you know you gotta get

out of here you gotta get them off and we gotta make sure there's attraction you gotta make sure there's attraction in person in real life this is the thing the attraction could be coming from the fact that they are holding a lost part of yourself. That is where a lot of juice comes from. So we talked about how women can be chasing really dark men. Yeah. Really, you know, like even sociopath men. Dark trine. We have to know about the sociopath in us.

We have to know about the parts of us that we have put away the most loving you know kind generous person will unconsciously be drawn to the really self-involved person because they need they need more of that energy and so it's like a vortex that draws us to the opposite, the parts of ourselves that we shut down. So if we're great caretakers, we're going to wind up with somebody who's pretty helpless and lost and needs caretaking. Yeah. That's kind of interesting. We're looking to fill those voids. And if you know what those voids are, you know, my void is peace.

And I need the sex fulfilled and what's the other thing companionship i guess uh feed me i mean i i look for feminine uh sort of qualities nurture i would just guess can i i'm gonna psychoanalyze you because okay i think i paid you so maybe this isn't working out for me but like so yeah your unmet need would be peace that's that's what you need is you need peace and harmony and somebody to protect you i don't need protection from chaos well protect you from chaos okay i get it you might need that i'm just i'm analyzing you you know i don't know we don't know each other at all i would agree with you on the protection from chaos because i deal with enough of that yeah yeah and but you're unconsciously drawn to it.

This, this again, just, this is my 10 cents, you know, Lucy psychology. Sure. But then when we're talking about functioning,

it's from reading your book and knowing you, I'm like, you are doer and you're a thinker. I try. Right. So you're going to be drawn to people who actually are more being energy sensory energy feeling energy because you're going to be pulling each other like oh wow i need more doing energy i need this thinking energy they're they're going to be really drawn to you, and you're going to be drawn to them like, wow, they're so chill,

and they're really, you know, anyway, it's just theory. We'd have to dig in to really get to it. But my point is that we're drawn to people who have different functioning but often the same unmet needs. I'm going to think about that. I'm going to have to think about what are my unmet needs and what I want. You know, a lot of the peace does come from a masculine frame. Men want peace. We don't want, we want our women to be happy. We want them to be joyful. We want them to be

in their feminine where they can play and they can be carefree. And that's what the masculine frame provides. And so a lot of that peace does come from the masculine male nature of mine it does but you're right my childhood was chaotic i had i had two women throwing emotional suicides every day for attention and validation and just miserableness overall but they it was because their their men weren't masculine and so they were having to be in their masculine and that's and they were miserable in their masculine that's why they were acting that way but you know really we're talking about like conscious dating knowing your relationship pattern how you were shaped and formed in your childhood that may be programming your gps in the wrong direction maybe i mean searching for peace i think think, is pretty healthy, right?

Well, of course. It's just that, like I said, if you run a business and you're very clear you want peace, you're not going to hear about the problems until it's later. Yeah. Well, business is a different animal. I don't think it is, actually. I mean, I can't expect peace in business. I can expect peace at home.

You disagree with me? It's a combination because the problems will go, the energy will leave if there's too much peace and we're not actually curious about what's really going on that it will go the energy will go it'll either go flat or the problems will fester until somebody can't do it do it anymore i think i can see your point i mean there's gonna be problems in everything they're gonna be in there i think what you i think what you want is someone who's not thriving maybe that's what i'm trying to say in all this is i want someone who's who's not who doesn't thrive on creating that drama because there's people that they live for that shit you know i've seen couples that they're calling the cops every night over domestic and then they and then i'll meet them and they're like you guys are back together like yeah we love

the makeup sex and i'm like you guys live a really fucking stupid, crazy life to get good makeup sex. Like, you know, having the cops called every night to come over and, you know. Yeah. And like, there's something in there of like, it's what we need. It's the GPS. There's like, if you're chaotic and I get you to choose to be peaceful, that has more juice in it than if I pick somebody who's peaceful in the beginning. Yeah. And some people, they think that up and down, they get hooked to the ups and downs of that chaotic life.

They like the emotional roller coaster and they're kind of addicted to that. So I imagine that would come back to what we've been talking about if that's your well we love it and we hate it yeah well see yeah some people see some people they probably have the same the same experience i had in childhood and they believe that that's a relationship because that's the blueprint that my parents gave me that you're supposed to have this toxic fighting at each other's throats every part of the day. Very powerful. Yeah.

And I see that a lot, too, with people who constantly get into abusive relationships, sometimes physically. Yeah. You know, I used to sit when I was younger and be like, why do women who get beaten up physically in a relationship, or sometimes men as well, keep going back to those same types of people. And they actually search for them. I mean, I've had some women that I've asked on dates and I know that they,

I kind of assume maybe they have their trauma fixed because I could see it. And they didn't. And they bowed out because they're like, you know, Chris, you're too nice of a guy yeah so many women get rejected because they were not crazy enough i probably have some friends that that's their memo it's just so powerful it's so powerful it's

so worth doing the work to unpack our unmet needs and to understand what kind of people we're drawn to and how they're really signaling something that we need more of yeah so let's talk to the resolution that how how do how do we fix that how do we do the work and what are the important ways to do that i noticed and let's weave into that some of the stuff that you guys do at your website. And as we go out, some of the services you offer at your website that help them resolve those issues. Yeah. Well, my favorite workshop is called Keeping the Love You Find or Finding a Love to Keep, which is doing the work. And, you know, I just spent the weekend with seven women. And they were a little mad at me, I'll be honest.

They're a little mad. They're like,'re like this is freaking hard i've been to do work i've been in therapy i thought i had this but it's super intense when you actually dig in and uncover you know there's sometimes trauma can get buried pretty deep and we can overcompensate in some pretty fancy ways to avoid that vulnerability. So, I mean, a weekend workshop is great. We have digital products on the website. My website developers like working their butt off to get it all coordinated, but we have digital products where you can at least start to dig in and ask yourself some questions, do worksheets, you know,

it's like a technology. You can actually identify from a list your unmet need and then see if that fits. I have an unmet need, but it's mostly hot sex. Anyway, I'm just kidding, folks. It's a joke. We do jokes on the show. I have that one, too.

I think everyone likes hot sex. Sometimes they do it in the fridge and it's cold sex but maybe maybe cold sex is marriage you're traumatizing me chris stop it let's have a fun here folks so anyway you know so people can get with you take a class yeah or call me and we'll we'll do some intensive work, whatever fits. Okay. But it would be fun to do a course for your group. Like, you know, do a workshop and you can bond with other people and learn about each other. Yeah.

That'd be fun. If we can get them to show up. It's really interesting how powerful, you know when one thing someone should study like yourself is i mean i'm telling you what to do i'm just giving you an idea the i'm just such a bossy today is you know this texting fantasy creates so much fantasy and i realize now even just talking to you about that one of the fallacies that people are doing for lack of intimacy is they're doing this eternal texting before they ever go on a date or they go on a date and you know like i've i read a lot of women's uh stuff in different

forms and things like i'll see women they're like well i went out with them once and we've been texting for the last three months and you're like wait he hadn't he doesn't take you out again no but i'm like wondering is he serious about accepting this like i have to tell my clients like just say what you want say i don't want to text i want to pick up the phone let me know when you're available i want to be taken out are you going to ask me out because i would love that just you know i mean i would prefer the man make the first move but if he hasn't made the first move you got to say what you want and then see how he responds and see if he's and communicate like you like you just said communicate effectively playing the girlfriend

every morning like i mean i have guys that they are literally like basically they are literally doing months and months they do good morning they do good nights to these women it's like we're pretending to be boyfriend girlfriend yeah they are that's what they do and and the girls are like why is this idiot doing this i want to go on a date right but why is she agreeing to it like she's coming into agreement with it when she's texting back. I think some people, they like the attention to validation. Exactly.

So there's an unmet need there that's driving the behavior. And then we got to figure out, okay, is, but is this really, really? I mean, yeah, you know,

that's one of the things that let's talk about this. If you don't mind, I know we're running a little bit long here than we normally do, but one of the, one of the things I'm so interesting it is and you're so knowledgeable although we've taught you a few things so i've done yes i've learned for life some things you shouldn't look up on the internet when it comes to the urban dictionary so one thing i find is that i i discovered this in early on a match.com i think in the 90s or 2000

that women were starting to get because they women are at the forefront of the relationship. Men do have to ask, but women decide to make that commitment, and usually that's with sex. So women have sex with the men they want, and women have sex with the men they want, men have sex with the women they can. It alternately fixes itself in the universe because men marry who they want. Women marry who they can. That's why women always have this stack of the men who got away that they would rather probably be married to. The alpha widow concept. But one thing I see with this texting thing is, is, God, I can't get back to where I segued off of.

Oh, so I saw this option overload and it had happened. It really identified one time I took this girl out from match.com and we had this amazing date, you know, to give you guys an idea that it wasn't just, it wasn't just a simple friendly date. We did get to base number two on the date. So she seemed to like me, let's put it that way. You know, this wasn't just like, I took her out to dinner and she'd ever call me back and blah, blah, blah. No, we seemed to really be into each other considering we couldn't keep our hands off each other. And then I hadn't gotten her phone number for some reason. I don't know why.

Or maybe I just got in the wrong. Somehow I'd screwed up contacting her. And it was my fault. And so I had reached out to her on match.com again to offer a second date and i never heard back and i just went okay she's not interested that's cool that's this happens in dating part of the gig and then like three or six months later i get this message from her oh chris i just found your message that you want a second date and i go you just found like what the fuck we had a really good day how did you lose track of this and she's like Chris we're getting as women

400 messages a day new men from day every day new men Coming at us in the dating app and I want holy shit And that's why I discovered this thing called option overload and I know this from sales I know this from sales if you've read three options Yeah, yeah You know if you get the more option you give people the more they'll lock them down because it's like I don't even know What to do? Yeah, and so What I see women nowadays is they have this roster of they have the man they want who's out of their way

Which is usually a child and they will they will they will climb a mountain and swim a river and fight off lions, tigers, and bears for that guy. But he won't usually, he's a Chad, so he's out of the league. He's a 10 there, but they think they're a 10. And then they usually have this roster of other guys that are fulfilling stuff that are like husband roles and relationship roles. So they got a guy they can call to get the car fixed. When I had my modeling agency,

I had models that they had a Monday guy and Monday guy and Monday guy was rented guy. Tuesday guy was car payment guy. Wednesday guy was utilities. I'm not even shitting you. It became mainstream. I used to see it early on. What do you think about it? Well, to me, one of the challenges is women have so much of this noise and support system going on that they normally would have as a husband and one man that they can't ever find validation and attention of just getting one man after that having a husband they want a husband but they can't ever live with just his because he's boring now they're used to having all these men and their simps and their dms

worshipped in them every day. And to me, it's a dopamine addiction. I was just thinking that. I was like, wow, yeah, that sounds like there'd be a lot of dopamine in that and it would be addictive. And it just becomes, these cell phones and social media have really created this dopamine addiction. And that's really what you have is all these people walking around dopamine addicted to what they think are relationships, like what we've talked about, their filling the the holes from their childhood but fulfilling until it's not yeah till there's a crash and yeah yeah well usually crashes stories well i mean this is what's going on and And so as a man, you come along and you're like, Hey, I'm a good guy over here.

I want to offer you a long-term relationship. I think I'm kind of interested in it. Either you can't get their interest because they're so overwhelmed. Like I've had so many messages I've sent to women where I've talked to them back and forth. And then I offered a coffee date. They never saw the coffee date message because, you know chad was peeing on the other line and then later on they'll see it they'll be oh shit i missed that yeah yeah yeah and i'm just like yeah no i'm not gonna do it no no you were too busy looking the other way at chasing something

you don't deserve yeah i you're gonna make the same mistake again it's not gonna be the first time and so i see a lot of this in dating where women are so engaged with the simpson yeah my advice is that early on first date you say i am looking for somebody who's really serious who's not dating you know like i find if you're dating a few other guys but if i'm lost in a flurry like you got to let me know you got to let me find if you're dating a few other guys, I'm fine. But if I'm lost in a flurry, like, you got to let me know. You got to let me know if you are dealing with, you know, multiple different kinds of relationships and you're not looking for something serious. Because I am. Well, usually I can figure that out pretty easy.

There's a bunch of red flags and testing that I have that will figure that out. You know, usually we call it looking for the Chad chasers. So Chad chasers usually have some identifiable things you'll see on Facebook or their profiles. And sometimes it's the way they behave or the way they swag. Facebook is a great, has been a great validator for me because I can look down. You got a whole research protocol. Oh, you do. You do. I i mean there's probably hundreds of women that i've looked down on facebook that i've been like no not gonna do it because i read your facebook

thing and it's because you know it's part of it's because i've done the work and i've trauma healed so i can you know if i see all these psychotic crazy ass fucking pump it up depression i'm suffering from massive depression memes so i post all these crazy positive memes and that's all i post on facebook i'm like yeah no i'm out so the best thing people need to do in summation is they need the work they need to reach out to a licensed therapist not crystals and not astrology and i would say a licensed imago therapist because they that's who i train and that means they are trained to understand relationships not just psychology but how do we impact each other and they are going to be able to help you figure out what are your unmet needs and what how are you over

functioning under functioning and how is that going to drive who you're attracted to? Yeah, definitely. Driving who you're attracted to. And why you're choosing potentially bad partners. You know, some people do that. Why are those chats so tempting? Yeah, and I see people that, and I understand the emotional context behind it, especially for women,

what they're emotionally connected to. And I imagine, i guess it's maybe it's the same for men although i don't know there's so many feminine men that are in their emotions now so that's probably true too but you know they're used to these patterns of the bad men that they're used to and they always say i'm not going to date any more bad men and they just go right back to it and it's like promises promises yeah that is so i mean so seductive when you meet that person that well i think you've helped identify it because they go back emotionally like what we've talked about here to those holes they're trying to fill yeah and like i said early on i found someone who

said who told me that magic that um we try and we we find people to recreate the the blueprint that we had from childhood so that we can fix the holes in it yeah and but the problem is is two damaged people do not make a whole person all depends on if we're coming with the right attitude that we are there to heal and grow with each other it doesn't matter i i suppose so do you really do you really feel that people can heal and grow together because i i like i feel like i can as a man as a leader as masculine frame i feel like i can heal small t trauma the little stuff i can't fix if you got big t trauma i i'm not again it can't be you fix them and they fix you. It has to be we are committed to understanding what's really going on in ourselves and each other and work as a team.

Yeah. I've often said that if I ever get into a relationship again, what I'm going to do is do preemptive counseling. So maybe do like a dipstick check. You can do our digital course at home. Every three months, you know, you check in. Hey, is everything cool? Anything we need to do? So maybe do like a dipstick check. You can do our digital course at home, eight weeks. Every three months, you know, you check in. Hey, is everything cool? Anything we need to do?

You know, before it becomes that pile of stuff in the skeleton closet, the one day it all falls out and you got a landfill of shit and you're just like, we should try and fix this now. And you're just like, I might be a little late for that. But, you know, trying to unwind that whole onion. No, I think it's so critical to do the work as early as, you know, and it's even great because the first year, like, is hot sex juices flowing good times.

That's a great time to do it because now we have the energy to do the work. Yeah. If we wait too long, we lose all the good, yummy energy. And then we have to spend time building that back. Yeah. And sometimes there's too much water on the bridge. Like it's just too many hurt feelings, too much damage. I don't know.

Usually it's the wrong attitude. Is it the wrong attitude? I mean, some people just want to quit instead of do the work, right? Yeah. Throw the coaster out, get a new one. Throw the the coaster out get a new one throw the coaster out jesus all right well thank you very much for coming on the show give us your dot coms as we go out one more time michelle michellebowls.com b-o-h-l-s dot com and you can reach me there and let me know what you want to do we'll figure it out thank you very much michelle for being on show. We've solved some riddles for people.

Thanks, Mara, for tuning in. Go to Goodreads.com, Fortress, Chris Foss, LinkedIn.com, Fortress, Chris Foss, Chris Foss 1, the TikTok, and all those crazy places on the internet. Be good to each other. Stay safe. We'll see you next time. And that should have a sound effect.