The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Unseen Leadership: Interrupt the Instincts That Block Your Success by Amy J. Clark

Episode Date: April 15, 2026

Unseen Leadership: Interrupt the Instincts That Block Your Success by Amy J. Clark https://www.amazon.com/Unseen-Leadership-Interrupt-Instincts-Success/dp/B0GM67TYS7 We are often told to trust our instincts. But what if those instincts are quietly working against us? Unseen Leadership: Interrupt the Instincts That Block Your Success challenges what leaders have long been rewarded for. Through decades advising and coaching senior executives, author Amy J. Clark has seen firsthand how instinctive habits that once drove achievement now create blind spots that block progress. Through powerful stories, insight, and reflection, the book introduces the CARE Leadership Activator™—Curiosity, Adaptability, Resilience, and Empathy, a new measurement of leadership designed for an unpredictable future. These are not soft skills; they are the strategic edge leaders need to stay credible, trusted, and influential when conditions change faster than comfort allows. This is the shift no one taught you to trust—how to move beyond instinct, interrupt old patterns, and lead with deeper awareness and impact. Unseen Leadership invites you to redefine how you measure success and lead at the level you are built for. About the author Amy J. Clark is an executive advisor, coach, and C-Suite executive who has spent more than two decades guiding senior executives and organizations through complex change. Amy helps leaders interrupt the instincts and patterns that limit their impact and activate the strategic capacity to lead inside uncertainty. As the author of the best-selling book Growth Point and co-author of Talent Impact, Amy’s work has influenced leaders across Fortune 500 companies, mission-driven organizations, and emerging enterprises. Today, she partners with executives and teams to redefine relevance, build credibility that lasts, and develop leaders for the business they are becoming, not the one they have been. Her proprietary framework, The CARE Leadership Activator™ (Curiosity, Adaptability, Resilience, and Empathy), helps leaders shift behavior, expand influence, and lead effectively in moments where instinct alone is no longer enough.

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Some guests of the show may be advertising on the podcast, but it's not an endorsement or review of any kind. Today, a amazing lady on the show, we're talking about her book that came out February 6, 2026, called Unseen Leadership. interrupt the instincts that block your success. Amy J. Clark joins us in the show. We're going to get in with her and find out all the deets on how you can be better at everything. Amy is an executive advisor, coach and author, the bestseller, a aforementioned book.

As a chief human resources officer, Amy has spent over two decades working with CEOs and executive teams through growth, disruption, and high-stakes transitions. known for her ability to see what others miss and spot patterns, she now helps leaders strengthen decision quality, expand leadership capacity, and lead beyond the limits of instinct. Her care, trademarked, leadership activator, curiosity, adaptability, resilience and empathy is used to reduce friction, improve alignment, drive performance in complex environments. She's the founder of Growth-minded Leadership Group LLC,

works to organizations to build leaders for the business they are becoming not the one they've been. Welcome the show. How are you, Amy? Great. Thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to a good conversation today. You're in the wrong show for that. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. This is quick. We do a lot of self-effacing jokes in the show. At least in my own. That's great. I love that. So welcome the show. Give us your dot coms. Where can people find you on the interwebs? Yeah. Growth-mindedleadership.com. So that's my web.

website and they'll give you all kinds of information about me and some resources as well. And I am active on LinkedIn. So you can find me there too. What active on LinkedIn? Yeah. All the smart people are active over there. That's such a great place. That's the place to be. Social media really turned into a stew of poo. Is it going to say that on the show? Sure.

So I'm putting that on a shirt. But so you know, LinkedIn is great. So give us a 30,000 overview. What's inside this book? seen leadership. Yeah. You know, I think about this, and we think every era we've experienced has tested leadership. So we can go back, you know, the Great Depression before our time, 9-11, the housing crisis, financial crisis, certainly COVID. 2020.

And today. I'm not sure what's going on, but it's not good for when I hear. Yeah, you know, it's exposed really that. leaders are working from yesterday's playbook, and I've seen it for myself, too. You know, and this is the moment we're in right now. I mean, we were talking about AI just a few minutes ago before we went live here, but so many forces, including AI, you know, we have the different generations in the workforce, deregulation, the economy, geopolitical, all kinds of things. I mean, list is endless today, right? What it's doing is it's exposing a gap between leaders who are still

working from yesterday from their instincts and trusting them. And to those that generally have evolved, and there's a gap that is widening fast. What has been interesting in my work, I have seen the most successful leaders struggle. They're struggling now because the instincts that made them successful are now working against them. So unseen leadership is the practice of interrupting those instincts before they interrupt your relevance. Because what I talk about in the book is that irrelevance, irrelevance becomes a choice. And I think about this, I'm like, who would choose to be irrelevant? Of course, we don't deliberately do that. We do that through some choices that we're making in the day to day. And really, it disrupts those instincts that are limiting you

and activates the practices that expand you. And it's certainly urgent right now, because AI hasn't really created it. It's more has relieved, you know, what we're seeing right now and where leaders have stopped growing and they're trying to figure out, you know, how to meet what this moment is and what the future is going to be. You know, that's what this book is. It's not only a mirror, but it's a roadmap. Yeah. We, you know, we've talked about this ad nauseum on the show, not ad nauseum, but a lot on the show. Yeah. Some people are crazy. Chris is going to say it again. But, you know, there seems to be this, you know, the old world Peter Drucker, I don't know if I can fully blame him, but I'll throw him into the bus. He's not around it. But he wrote some great books,

folks. That old world sort of stick in carrot thing where we say, or we fire you, you know, put a gun to your head and go until morale improves, no one will get hurt. And, you know, that seemed to work for, I don't know, a lot of generations, but, you know, the millennials kind of became this group that we're like, you know, we want to serve a higher purpose maybe, or we want to, you know, we want to feel better about what we do, you know, just doing work for the sake of work and just rudimentary, you know, spinning widgets back and forth or something. And, you know, I think Gen Z dug in deeper to that, to that thing, maybe Gen Alpha will as well. And so you kind of some of the things that I, you and I talked about between your bio and in your intro, more emotional

intelligence being needed and more reason for existence and purpose to be incorporated into the job scene, where it's, do I really love what I do? You know? Yeah. You know, I mean, you could, My grandfather was a welder at Union Pacific. I think he loved what he did. I think he loved, he was like for 40 years. I was just in the building. That's why it's top of mind. And I don't know that he ever truly loved it.

I think he loved helping people. He loved welding for his church, and he would weld all the chairs that would break and stuff. But, you know, now it's more a thing of people who are looking at stuff and going, do I feel personally fulfilled doing the work I do? Is that on point with your research? Yeah. Yeah.

It absolutely is. You know, when I think about growing up to, though, you know, my parents and even, you know, extended family would say, you know, you got to make sure you go to college. Get that corporate job. Get a job. Going to five or trade, whatever that is. You need a stable job. Steady paycheck, the benefits, all that stuff. And, you know, and our generation, you just went through that.

What I see now is, you know, certainly, yes, those are younger generations, are they're looking for purpose. Work is not the only part of their life. I mean, although we spend most of our time at work, we want it to be something that's connected to who we are. And even if it is, like you said, manufacturing the widgets, you know, we want to know what that's for, you know, and we're interested in different ways of doing it. And so you're right, the idea of, you know, when I think of leadership, the Peter Drucker time or even, you know, around that time and the leaders I grew up with, it was like

this command and control, you know, and being very, very specific on direction. You go do this, go do that, go do that, right? And, you know, we, we had this sense of, okay, we know what we need to do, and then we're just going to go home, you know, those are the things that we, you know, we do. And so I think it's, it comes down to this, this younger generation wanting to feel like they are part of something. Because the other piece to this is the relationship between an employee and their manager is one of the most important ones. And that's the one, the pivotal one, that has that person making the decision of whether they're going to stay.

And you mentioned emotional intelligence, and I will say, emotional intelligence is probably, you know, is more important than IQ. IQ, you really, you can't develop, you can't emotional intelligence, you're working with people. You're influencing people day in and day out. And that's one thing you need to make sure you do, you do have and you're working to develop,

particularly for these younger generations. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I will also say, you know, just for also, too, you know, when I think about, McKinsey was doing a study and, you know, when they talk about executives are already seeing significant skill gaps, but one of them is emotional skills are going to be rising and the need for social emotional skills.

And so, yeah, this is a time we really need to be thinking about that. I even notice here on your sheet, they were one. sheet. You were recognized among the top 50 thinkers 360. That's one word. Thought leaders. That's a brand from my understanding, thinkers 360. Yes. So congratulations for that. Thank you. No, thank you very much. Yeah. You're certified as a visionary leadership master coach through Dr. Oleg Connobloves, visionary leadership institute. Yeah. That's right. So you're really smart then. You're very smart. I flunk second grade. I can't even pronounce smart. In this book, you get into several details. about talking about instinct. What are some of the errors or missions or what is this

about and how does that sometimes work against us? So when we think of instinct, we're born with them. You know, we're born with, you know, the instinct to survive, the fight or flight, right? To protect ourselves, our family. It also comes along with we want to avoid things that are conflicts sometimes or, you know, and protect. So that comes into our, our, connection with people in the day-to-day in our leadership. Because we automatically think about it. You know, when you think about leaders that you've had or your own default, we like to have a sense of control. We like to have a sense of certainty that we kind of know what the outcome is going to be. We lean on getting things right and needing to feel like I better have that answer or how am I

going to look to somebody else? And then we lean on this idea of, you know, I feel like I need to be valid. I need other people to know that I'm smart. You know, it feels good to know that you're being valuable. People want to be useful. But what happens to that is, you know, even the most successful leaders as we kind of go through in our career, success creates these patterns, you know, these patterns of thinking, of making decisions and they're based on these things. Like, yep, I grew up, I kind of know what I need to do. I'm shown I know the answer. And then when you get into a leadership role with people,

that is no longer, you know, the prime thing that will continue your success. Because now people are relying on you to help them be successful. And so it is less about what you know and how you can bring out the brilliance in other people, how you can show them what they're capable of doing. And so we need to let go. We need to let go with those things.

And it's really hard because we're just sitting here. I'm proud of it. And I want to be clear here. It doesn't mean we forget those things, right? It doesn't mean that they don't matter. What it means is how do you use them now to grow a team? And so those are, so that's where I see instincts come up where we automatically come at a pressure situation of, okay, all right, I know how this goes. I've been here before.

I know the answer and we automatically spit it out, right? But what if those group of people in that room? room had other ways of seeing it. And so now you're drowning out others and your sense of confidence while feels good to you can cause others to feel like, okay, I don't think I'm in a place to question this or bring out my thoughts. And so that's where, you know, it challenged the notion of let's think about what these instincts are costing you and costing people around you.

That's very true. I mean, if every guest who came on the show, you know, came to share their ideas and I just talked over in the whole time and and just told them what I think about whatever they've researched which would be kind of silly I know more than you know I treat most authors that are on the show I mean if it's a novel clearly you know you're not doing research much maybe you do research but whatever but I don't I don't tell people you know you obviously spent 10,000 hours probably researching this or more to become an expert you know that's kind of the marker people kick around 10,000 hours and and I just got tired when I said

I said 10,000 hours because I really so many, how many those have done. I need that app now. But they're, sorry, I think I segueed into that, and now I can't find my way back. But would you say that people, so, yeah, the development of the kind of the learning organization and the ability for everyone to input. So, you know, this happens with every show. I have every guest I have on the show, I'll have two or three, maybe at least one epiphany where I, you know, they give me a different angle or perspective or ideas.

or something I haven't thought about or something maybe I thought about it or I know it very well. I get a different, I get a different angle on it. And then I'm like, wow, I never looked at it from that way. And so having an environment in your company, a culture where people aren't afraid to ask questions, where people feel like they can share and that their opinions are validated, although I've met some people that all their opinions are always bad, but it's rare. And, you know, we used to have a thing at my company where one of our mottos in the culture was the only stupid question is the unasked question. Please, if you have questions, if you have ideas, please communicate them.

So do you say we're kind of moving towards that sort of servant leadership? Yeah, I would say so. I think what's hard for a leader sometimes is, you know, I like to tell them, you know, show it yourself. And when I think about humility and vulnerability, so when a leader themselves says, you know, we have this in front of us, you know, I've seen it and here are some things we thought about before, but I don't know if that's in the next thing. So that's what I want to talk about in this room, immediately opens up the space versus if you say, you know, yeah, we had this last time. Here's what we did. And, you know, here's what I'm thinking, you know, how do you see those steps playing out? Those are two, because people are just like, all right, they've already made that decision. So now I've got to think about steps, even though I have a different idea. So it's, I, I like to, you know, talk to leaders about this concept of unlearning and public. And unlearning means that you, you are then interrupting these ideas of, okay, I've been here before. I know how this goes. I have the answer. I'm here to be the leader and have the answer

to saying to people, you know, I think I know what to do, but I'm not quite sure. more. Or, you know, this is what we're looking at and here are the signals I'm looking for you know. You want people to get a sense of how you think because what that does for them is that it gives them that feeling of safety of I can do the same and they're learning from you. But builds trust. Oh, absolutely for sure. And and I think, you know, some leaders just have a hard time doing that because I, you know, they, you know, they often believe that people, you know, or want to be directed by their leader. It's really interesting because that's what they had.

That's how they felt. And it's, again, this generational thing where now it's, you know, don't walk in with assumption, question line. And, you know, really think about the people you have in front of you and all that they can offer. Because, listen, you know, one thing behind unseen leadership is that your influence lasts beyond you being in the room, that things continue to work without you. that is the biggest responsibility we have as a leader that things continue moving without us

and if we're not working towards that then we're doing a disservice definitely you know there's a recent story someone told in the show and they told the story about how you know we were talking about how companies don't walk their talk they'll put all this fluffy language and you know the stuff you're talking about and then they'll the CEO or the board and top employees will behave otherwise and they think that people People don't see through the bullshit of the fair issue, right? We're a company that's moral and cares about all of our, we care about our employees. Our employees are family, but 40% of you're fired tomorrow.

My family. But, you know, this whole notion that you can just PR over everything, you've got to be able to walk the talk as a CEO, as a leader. And really, you're looking at people, people, I mean, you hire people to be resources for you and to do things. But a lot of times, you know, like you say, sometimes they feel locked into maybe a job title. I can't contribute. I can see how we could save a lot of money for the company over there in that department. But I don't work there. You know, son of my business, no one cares about money, you know, whatever sort of regulation they're putting on themselves.

And unless you have a culture that encourages them to share ideas and to do stuff, you know, you're not going to be able to tap into those resources. And they're sitting, they're like gold. You know, maybe if you think of each person as a little gold mine that, that, that, that, not, not to scrape resources from them, but basically as a resource of ideas, innovation, of course, maybe how you can make their lives better. I mean, the number one reason people leave companies is poor leadership. Yes, it is. It's pretty sad when you think about it for the costs that companies put into recruiting and developing

and educating and skilled growth, you know, when somebody's, hey, I'm being mishandled, you know, and mistreated or not heard, I'll go someplace where I am. Yeah, and I think we often, we don't, you know, we don't quantify how much it is and how much of costs to replace somebody. I mean, two to three times, even more, depending on the level of the role, their salary. Yeah. You know, and, you know, one of the things I've done to try to, you know, bring this in is, you know, because again, this idea of CEOs and C-suite roles in particular, it is so important, you know,

as one myself, that, you know, we engage with people. And I think, and it's more than walking around and how is your weekend. It's, you know, what are you excited about that you're working on right now? And, you know, tell me about that. And people love that because then what they also reveal are for you are things that, you know, I think I need to look into that a little bit more, you know, or you have a better appreciation that when problems do come up, you understand the impact it has to your people. And specifically, you know, in some of the things that I do, I run these like leadership development cohorts,

emerging leaders or maybe directors, senior director level of folks, and it's a period of six to eight months. So there's a learning component. But what we do is we have this action learning going on where they take this challenge, this project initiative that they have going on right now, or something that they know that needs to get better. And they work on it in real time,

but they work among different departments. So they're not just working in their own lane. They're getting an appreciation of the entire organization. And I have the leaders of these folks involved. So they're getting a greater appreciation of their person, but learning about what the organization is looking to do in a broader sense. And what that tends to do is build the trust between the employee and their leader because they're talking about, here's what I'm learning,

and here's what I get to implement in real time. And those things often help, you know, and that kind of making people feel like, all right, you know, I know I don't totally completely respect my manager, but I feel like I've made some inroads and being able to have an impact here. And I've met other people in the organization. So maybe I don't have to leave here.

I can go over in this area. So it expands possibility for people. But you want to give those, you want to have those micro moments where you're seeing people in the day to day. And then how do you create these more formal? normalized systems within your organization so people feel like, you know, it's, they can build those relationships and, you know, have an impact in real time. Build those relationships, you know, one of the things I read early on was Peter Senge's book,

the fifth discipline. And it helped me want to build learning organizations. I found that learning organizations where people can have, you know, what you've discussed, the open mind andness, the awareness, listening to others, making sure the environment is free, You know, because a lot of people don't realize you create sometimes these bully environments where if anyone speaks up with an idea or innovation or just about anything, they get shot down. And then, you know, they get shamed sometimes where it's like, oh, that's a stupid idea. Are you a stupid person, you know, which explains what we do around the Chris Foss show on board day. But, you know, if you create that environment, then no one's going to speak up.

No one's going to say, hey, someone should oil the machine because it's about to blow a gasket, right? They're just going to go, whatever, man. These guys don't seem to care about anything. I tell them, so I'm just not going to tell them. You know, I was in that place. And, you know, for those listening, you know, if you're in your stage of your career where you're wanting to get into, excuse me, executive kind of level, I remember, you know, a situation I was in, I was in my first executive leadership team

meeting. I wasn't at the executive level, but I was leading talent, development, culture, areas at the time. And we were gathering the team to go over all things, you know, survey results. culture survey results. And so I was going through that and stating my position and setting up for a discussion. And, you know, and I named one of the areas of the culture survey of where we needed to work and that it was a pivotal moment, not just for the people in our organization, but those around the table.

And I remember to my left, one of the leaders sitting in the chair, turns to me and says, Amy, be careful what you say. and I at the moment I I had a lot of things in my head that I'm not going to say here but I have some of them too I I do remember just I'm feeling it now like I feel this like visceral effect like this heat in my going up my face and I'm like oh oh crap what did I do it's kind of almost a sabotage thing you know but the thing is yeah and I'm like what did I just say because you know I completely was just I was blindsided and it felt like I was just like, trapped or you're out.

And, you know, and I go back to that moment because I think about how I recovered. And I really, I didn't really respond to it. I redirected after a few breaths of saying, you know, let's, let's have the open discussion, you know. Yeah. And so I remember that, though, and it stuck with me. It obviously still sticks with me because what it did is it had me from there. I edited myself quite often. Really?

Because, yeah, I did. It really impacted me. Yeah, it really did. That's a perfect example of, yeah. Because I mean, because I mean, I was a VP at the time. And, you know, at that point, I'm like, oh my God, my career is over.

And I really felt, you know, because every single person on that executive team sat there. And they were the decision makers about my future. And so you think about those things. And I remember I went to talk to a mentor after, It took a while. It took a while. And I said, you know, I was really shaken by that.

Yeah. And I really appreciated how he approached it with me. He says, you know, okay, so say you're going back to that situation, what would you have done? Like, how would you have done it, you know? And now that I think about it and the practices that I talk about in my book, you know, I probably would have said, you know, I would love to hear how you see it. Oh, yeah, put them on the floor. How do you see it? Yeah.

You know, my curiosity was... That's a lot nicer than I had in my remedy in my brain. Mine was baseball bat. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, I've learned, you know, the people who block you and, you know, and what they do and what they don't do. And, you know, I've had my share of lessons where I've reacted just as emotionally as they did. And I've learned I don't need to meet the energy of the other person, even though they are not the kind of leader I want to be.

You know, I have a choice of how to move. it, but my instinct at that point was to protect my self and run away. And I think those are learned things you have over time. Yeah. You know, one thing I learned a long time ago, and I'm, you know, experience every day, frame is really important. And sometimes people are trying to take frame from you when they do stuff like that. They're trying to interfere with your frame and take frame. Whoever is frame is the leader, right? The, and when someone's sabotages you like that? Because to me, that's a sabotage. That's a projection and a sabotage. Whether they really know or believe that, that's what they're up to, whether it's insidious, it's still insidious,

right? Because it evoked the response that you want and the scarring that took you a while to get over that you took to other organizations. And, you know, this is what people do. Eventually, they don't say anything in an organization. They just kind of keep their head down, do the little work there and go home. And they're just like, I don't want to contribute more or say nothing because I just get in trouble when I do that. I don't bother. I think I've been laid off from a couple of corporations when I was very young because I offered a bunch of ideas.

And one time I wrote management like this big thing of how we can improve the place. And part of it was for promotion to a job that had become available. All right. Wonderful discussion there, Amy. Tell us more about what you do on your website and how you do it and some of the services you offer there. Yeah. So I partner with CEOs and their heads of HR, particularly as they think about

you know, the strategy that they're looking to deliver and they're realizing leadership isn't quite at the level of ambition that the CEO is looking for them to be, meaning that they're not ambitious, that they're ambitious rather, but their capacity to meet that isn't quite there. And so it often happens in times, you know, certainly what we talked about in the very beginning, where, you know, perhaps you're in a growth stage. You have a strategic shift in your organization, new leadership in your organization. a new product line, all of these kinds of things. But for some reason, you're not seeing that executive team is cohesive.

And so I offer, you know, executive coaching for that, you know, developmental sessions for that. And then, you know, keynote those kinds of things for those organizations. But I'm also an author, as you've said. And, you know, enjoy the thought leadership and putting that out there, whether it's on LinkedIn or through my books. I notice one of the activities you have there services on your website are, is care leadership. Activator. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that, if you will. Yeah. So the CARE leadership Activator is really part of the practices that expand you. And it's, and it really is what helps you interrupt these instincts that we've been talking about in real time. And, and they are based on

what I have learned separates the good from the exceptional leaders, the things that, and how they approach situations, particularly under pressure and uncertainty. So it's curiosity, adaptability, resilience and empathy. And it's really ways of expanding your thinking capacity, you know, to meet the moment that you're in. And, you know, so I can go through a little bit of each of them. You know, when we think about curiosity, you know, we all know, you know, we're curious people. We want to learn more. But it goes deeper than that when we're thinking in terms of leadership and business. For instance, you know, we're not satisfied with the first answer. We want to make sure, you know? Yeah, it's good. First answer is a lot. First answer is a lot. always the full answer. And also, you know, there's there's this one thing I just love to compare it to

when I think about it. So speaking of, you know, we just had this recent shuttle to the moon, right? Yeah. So NASA has created this chronograph where it, you're able to look up at the sky. And it, so for instance, it blocks out the brightness of the sun, right? So it reveals the other things around it. So when we think about that in terms of curiosity, is that for you, where you're not, you're seeing all these shiny objects coming at you and you're able to kind of shade out those shiny objects to see what else is possible around it. That could be even better. And, you know, it's the lens you're looking through in terms of the situation you're in. And then adaptability, we know and we think about it in terms of being able to pivot. Of course, that's important. You need to be able to shift when

things change around you. But, you know, what also is important is to know, have you, you know, is looking three or four steps ahead. Because if you're constantly pivoting, you, you feel like you're you're catching up and you're chasing versus having, you know, this foresight to say in terms of what could this look like, six months, a year out, two years out, what do we need to start preparing for now? And so that really helps in terms of, you know, pivoting can be disruptive, but what plans can we put in place and what can we expect to have happen? Resilience, we know this in terms of being able to to come back from setbacks, right? But I also want to make sure people understand this isn't pushing for the sake of pushing. It is not perseverance

until you're actually done. It's really knowing what not to do as well. Resilience is knowing, you know, this is not, this is not worth my energy, this is not worth my time, or this is not really in connection to what I want for myself. And then empathy has been one that I've, you know, I've experienced the most about for myself. But, you know, we talk about empathy being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes. And I've always struggled with that because I think to myself, once I'm in them, what do I do? And I start thinking it and making it about me, okay, I'm listening to somebody. So what should my response be? You know, when we're thinking about somebody giving you their problem and they're upset or they're not sure what to do, as leaders, we like to go into problem

solving mode because that's what we're used to. That's what got us where we are. So it's important to take a step back and realize this is not about me. How do I allow this other person to tell me where they need me versus me assuming? Those are some important things when we think about what we're, what we need to do in business and where we need to connect with people. The care activator helps you diagnose where you might need to build some things a little bit more, you know, and in terms of, you know, what you're faced with. It's a wild, wild world out there. I think what I now I remember what I was talking about was frame. Oh, you were.

Yes. That's from another show. But basically, you know, sometimes it's just sheer sabotage. Somebody wants you to be subjugated so that they can get ahead and you can't. So sometimes it's a sabotage attack like that. And again, it is taking frame away from you. So that's why you felt violated is because you're like, wait, I'm the one supposed to be leaning here. I have frame.

And they just hijacked it. And so that's a real important thing to note when people do that. And, you know, and then be able to recognize it. It's kind of hard to recognize it right away, especially when you're managing, you know, 50 different things you're focused on. But it's an important aspect. Like I think about frame like all the time when I'm dealing with people. There's always one person who has frame. In your relationship, there's one person who usually holds frame.

There's a dominant and the submissive in any sort of interaction. And, you know, you can either accept that, you know, that person holds frame. and you're going to meander in the midst of it. And hopefully it's respectful and, you know, build you and learns you and stuff. And, you know, I'm going to hold frame because I'm trying to get people, I'm trying to lead people to get the best out of them. And there's a time where I'm going to give them frame. Like we're kind of passing frame back and forth here as we talk, right?

And yeah, and that creates a more segue. Who would you say is your ideal client? If they're out there listening right now, you know, we go out, we love LinkedIn. Who out there is your ideal client? Is there a minimum sort of network? Worth or executive title or who is that for you? Right now, I'm talking to CEOs and heads of HR because they're seeing the broader view of what's going on in the business and some of the pain points and the friction points

that are happening, but they often can't name what it is. You know, if they're at this inflection point of, you know, growth stage, you know, setting out a new vision or strategy and they're not quite sure that their leadership team is, they have the right people in the right place or that they're ready or they need, they're not sure what the gap is, those are the folks I work with to help them diagnose what that gap is and help fill it in a variety of ways. Those are the folks I'm talking to, mostly in businesses that, you know, maybe 7,500 or less employees that, you know, are, you know, you can see the impact of that much quicker in terms of the business change you're looking to make. You know, in any,

industry, you know, I've worked across manufacturing, highly regulated financial services, you know, nonprofit organizations. And so that experience gives me, you know, some depth and breath into what I can bring there. And certainly then with my work in, in the field of HR, I've seen how it has evolved since it was called personnel back in the day to what it is today of being part of the business. And so particularly with heads of HR as they're thinking about the impact they're expected to have, you know, I coach and advise them one on one on how to build that practice within their organization and for themselves. Any further thoughts or anything more we need to discuss before we go out on what you do

and how you do it for people? No, I don't think so. I've enjoyed the back and forth and I appreciate the framing. I have not heard it that way before, so I am going to use that. Yeah. I wish I were for you. There's some people that I know they're really good at discussing and teaching frame. You know, and that's something leaderships need to understand.

Am I holding frame right now or leaders? As parents, you have to hold. frame as a parent. If you don't, the children will hold frame. And if anybody's seen children run a show or teenagers run a show, it's a crazy house. So that's why it's important to hold frame. But yeah, it's interesting, you know, people, you know, in the business world, they'll sabotage you, they'll cut you off. They'll try and do what they can. And a lot of times, you know, being able identify that right away is important because then you could turn to that person and go, I'm sorry, what did you say to me? And or, you know, that's usually what I say. I'll just be like,

excuse me or yeah I'll put them back on the point of the back foot of you know I've recognized that you've tried to take frame from me and I'm holding frame and now you're going to have to explain yourself instead of me you know and you know the other thing that I think about and you know if this were going to happen me today be careful what you say why is that why is that why is that I that's why I'd say back to that person if they said be careful what you say, why is that? Yeah. What's what's on your mind? You know, again, putting that in their place of, because you're right, taking the frame for me, but by asking that, I'm actually taking it back because I'm, I'm influencing where the conversation is going. So, yeah, you, you live and learn in those situations.

It was a good learning moment for me for sure. Oh, yeah. And now you can teach other people not to, not to be hijacked or sabotaged. It's really, you know, and a lot of times, too, it's projection. It is. And that, and that's, you know, and that. That's kind of part of the frame battle too. You're trying to project your vision or your assumptions, a lot of times it's assumption, onto me, your securities, your fallacies, your shortcomings of knowledge, you're trying to project them onto me. You're also trying to frame me as that projection and not that projection, unless that's

the projection you want, but the fact they're interfering is obvious. Yeah. Yeah. Trying to take frame back. Yeah. Anyway, great discussion. Amy, wonderful to have you on. Thank you.

Thank you. And give us your dot-coms one last time as we go out. Growth-mindedleadership.com. That's where you can find information about me in my book. And then you can find me on LinkedIn. Thank you much, Amy, for being on the show. Folks, pick up her book, wherever fine books are sold, stay at those alleyway bookstores because you might get mugged.

I had to get a tetanus shot the other day because I got stepped on a nail on one of the alleyway bookstores. Whoa. What is Chris doing on weekends? Or it up where refined books are sold. Unseen leadership. Interrupt the instincts that block your success out February 6th, 2020. You know, you can even say with that title that, you know, interrupt the instincts that block your success, like that guy interfering with you and, you know, saying watch your words.

Yeah, watch your words. Perfect example. Anyway, thanks for tuning in to everyone. Go to Goodrease.com, Fortress, Chris Foss, LinkedIn.com, Fortress, Chris Foss, won the TikTok, and all those crazy places in it. Be good at each there. Stay safe. see you next time.

You've been listening to the most amazing, intelligent podcast ever made to improve your brain and your life. Warning. Consuming too much of the Chris Walsh Show podcast can lead to people thinking you're smarter, younger, and irresistible sexy. Consume in regularly moderated amounts. Consult a doctor for any resulting brain lead. All right, wonderful show, Amy, we'll be going on.