The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – We the Leader: Build a Team of Equals Who All Lead AND Follow to Drive Creativity and Innovation by Jeffrey Spahn

Episode Date: December 17, 2021

We the Leader: Build a Team of Equals Who All Lead AND Follow to Drive Creativity and Innovation by Jeffrey Spahn Lead your company to success in the age of disruption with this groundbreaking new leadership paradigm We live in a constantly changing world with new technologies introduced daily, perpetual connectivity, and relentless pressures to do more, faster, better. No one understands this better than business leaders, who must navigate change personally while simultaneously guiding their organization at the same time. We the Leader provides a solution to this dilemma: Approach leadership as a collective art. That’s the guiding principle behind Jeffrey Spahn’s approach to creating sustained innovation within organizations. Spahn has guided myriad companies toward a more solid leadership foundation, and in this eye-opening guide, he shares his most powerful wisdom and shows you how to apply it to your own business. Moving beyond the traditional model of top-down leadership, Spahn has created a foundation for an organizational culture that benefits from collective energy, curious conviction, and solid, actionable goals. You’ll find enlightening guidance on such principles as: Collective flow―being driven by an energy beyond the limits of individuals Panarchy―navigating the emerging terrain of collective leadership Simultaneity―accessing collective flow by leading and following in the same action Consilience―embracing opposing viewpoints as an opportunity to make a difference through differences Filled with case studies of Spahn’s work with industry-leading companies and an effective decision-making process rooted in these principles, We the Leader represents the next step in the evolution of leadership―a fresh-eyed new way forward for your organization. We the Leader represents a seismic shift in the evolution of leadership theory and practice. By implementing this innovative practice built on diversity, equity, inclusion, any organization can drive consistent winning results with ingenuity and speed.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms and legs inside the vehicle at all times. Because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain now here's your host chris voss hi folks it's voss here from thechrisvossshow.com thechrisvossshow.com hey we're coming here with another great podcast we certainly appreciate you guys tuning in thanks for being being here today. Oh, my gosh, man. It's almost like we do a podcast like every weekday or every couple times a weekday.

Anyway, guys, go to YouTube.com. It's the newest and coolest, latest thing where all the kids are at one of the places they're at. So you go to YouTube.com, of course. That's Chris Voss. Hit the bell notification button. Join the Chris Voss Show Club because it's free for an unlimited time. You want to capture that deal. I think it's only going through like Christmas through eternity or something.

So anyway, sign up there. Go to goodreads.com, Forrest S. Chris Foss. See all the stuff we're reading or reviewing over there. It'll make your brain like so much larger. You'll have to order a new one from Amazon. I don't know. This is a horrible setup for a joke anyway go to facebook linkedin twitter instagram all those crazy places tiktok

wherever those kids are playing the only place we're not at is snapchat for the most obvious of reasons i don't know i like that joke for some reason i don't know why anyway guys if you want to get a nude pictures of the logo i suppose you can do that or something i don't know whatever anyway funny so guys we have an amazing author on the show. We always have the most amazing people. What we do is we go on the Google machine there. We type in amazing, brilliant minds and authors, and then we have them on the show because God knows I'm the one sucking most of the brilliance out of the show with my five. What is a five IQ? I think is what I have. So we're excited to announce

my new book is coming out. It's called Beacons of Leadership, Inspiring Lessons of Success in Business and Innovation. It's going to be coming out on October 5th, 2021. And I'm really excited for you to get a chance to read this book. It's filled with a multitude of my insightful stories, lessons, my life and experiences in leadership and character. I give you some of the secrets from my CEO Entrepreneur Toolbox that I use to scale my business success, innovate, and build a multitude of companies. I've been a CEO for, what is it, like 33, 35 years now. We talk about leadership, the importance of leadership, how to become a great leader,

and how anyone can become a great leader as well. So you can pre-order the book right now wherever fine books are sold. But the best thing to do on getting a pre-order deal is to go to beaconsofleadership.com. That's beaconsofleadership.com. On there, you can find several packages you can take advantage of in ordering the book. And for the same price of what you can get it from someplace else like Amazon, you can get all sorts of extra goodies that we've taken and given away. Different collectors, limited edition, custom made numbered book plates that are going to be autographed by me. There's all sorts of other goodies that you can get when you buy the book

from beaconsofleadership.com. So be sure to go there, check it out or order the book wherever fine books are sold. Anyway, guys, we have enough of the delays. We have an amazing author on the show. His name is jeffrey spawn or jeff spawn we'll call him today i think he is the author of the book coming out january 11 2022 according to amazon as of this date we the leader build a team of equals who all lead and follow to drive created creativity and innovation drive creativity and innovation. Drive creativity and innovation. We're going to be talking about his forthcoming book.

And I'm really interested in this because I just put out my book on leadership. And it wasn't very in-depth when it came down to leadership. I wasn't trying to write an encyclopedia. But it was really interesting about what he touches on, and we'll get into some of the details of that. Jeff Spahn is a pioneer in leadership, forging a new evolved theory and practice of leading that meets today's challenges and opportunities. With more than 20 years at the helm of Leading Leaders Incorporated, Jeff has drawn on his hands-on research and business leadership expertise to develop a

proven process that transforms complexity into innovation and optimal business outcomes. He inspires leaders to move beyond the industrial age concept of collaboration and reimagine traditional leadership hierarchies and embrace an innovative process for leading and following at the same time. The same action, a seismic shift designed to the unique demands of the digital age. Welcome to the show, Jeff. How are you? I am fabulous, Chris. Thanks for having me.

Fabulous, darling. Fabulous. Yes, yes. I'm like pulling from all sorts of different resources here. Anyway, guys, give us your plugs, your dot coms or wherever you want people to look at your brilliance on the interwebs. www.WeTheLeader.com WeTheLeader.com Just activated that website and it features the book and a quiz and access.

You can get deeper into the process and follow up our conversation. WeTheLeader.com. That's pretty awesome. You got that. That's awesome. Yeah. Great thing. Good.

Usually I'd be worried about fascists getting a hold of that, but it's good that you have it. Well. But there's still time. Take over the world from a number of different angles, you know. There you go. It sounds like you have a plan. Jeff, what motivates you on to write this book?

Chris, I grew up in Eastern Ohio in the foothills of Appalachia. And I, along with a group of teenagers, had an experience there along the Ohio River that we will never, ever forget. And as a team, we just outperformed ourselves and transmuted ourselves into an excellent team and had a victory that was a superb upset. But more than that, what happened is we, at least in my experience, had an out-of-body experience and felt like I moved into another realm, another dimension. And often we talk about this in terms of collective zone, and we hear about it. Many of us have experienced it at one time or another or have seen it unfold, whether in the arts or in athletics.

And this experience marked me because I began not at 16, but in my early 20s, I began to wonder, did that really happen? And then if it did, how can I translate that energy into my own life and into teams and organizations that I'm a part of? And what was the team that you guys had there in the Appalachian? No, it was a football team, a high school football team. Yeah, yeah. And give us an overall arcing rundown of the book and what's inside of it.

Yeah, there's the overall theme. It starts with the idea of, hey, collective flow really happens. I draw upon my experience and other people's experiences, whether in the arts or athletics or business and in a number of different venues and situations. And then I say, hey, consistent flow happens periodically. Let's take a look at having consistent or collective flow happens periodically. Let's take a look at having consistent or collective flow happens periodically. Let's look at having collective flow happen more consistently. And if so, how can we make that happen? And then the book unfolds from there. And one of the foundational pieces of this innovative leadership is the term consilience.

And it is rooted in Edward O. Wilson's book of that title some 20 years ago. And he basically says the fundamental evolutionary impulse of life itself is the jumping together of two opposite energies. For example, in the creating of a human being, jumping together of opposite sexes to create something new. And that foundation of creating through our differences, it runs throughout the we the leader, and it's a core premise and assumption. And then to your point, in terms of the alpha leader, we begin to address how that happens, and how to integrate a more equality, a more equal approach to leadership within the context of hierarchy. And we start with me, the leader, the diversifier. Everybody's different.

Everybody's totally unique. And we can really only lead our own life. And we could talk more about that. And then the second section is about the common leader or the common purpose, the equalizer. Because we all follow a common purpose within an organization, we're all equal. No matter where we are within the hierarchy, everyone's a follower of a purpose, and that's the equalizer. And then in the final section, we talk about the unifier of we the leader, and how do these different people who are leaders of their own lives and followers of a common purpose are now one identity is everyone's a leader follower.

So how do you make that work? How do you get united and in sync with creativity and execution? So it's interesting what you proposed. And like we talked about in the pre-show, when I got your thing, I saw that build a team of equals. Yes. All lead and all follow to drive creativity and innovation. And, of course, we know the adage of too many cooks in the kitchen and other things. So this is a new leadership paradigm you're suggesting.

So how does – give us, I guess, a touch on how this works. We need to read the book, of course, to find out. Sure. So the shift I'm proposing, the observations I'm making is that our organizations are more than just a hierarchy of leader or follower. But another identity that's already there, and I'm trying to observe and to reflect and magnify, is that within that hierarchy, everyone is a leader of their own life. I'm the only one who really knows my feelings, my thinking, my experiences. No one has had the experiences that I've had. I'm totally unique. We get that. We hear that all the time. And so I'm the only one who can choose. I'm the only one who can really

lead my own life. And so more and more, that's becoming prominent within organizations. Mike Kaufman, who's CEO of a number of top global company, top 15 global company. He has a chapter in the book called A Career of Leading Leaders. And he's running an organization with 55,000 employees or leader, co-leaders. And so, yes, if you don't have a process, that will be total chaos. But at the same time, if everyone brings their full self to work, wow, you've got a whole nother level of energy. If we can learn how to leverage that energy in a creative, flowing way. And that's what unfolds in the book so is there still a boss at the top or is it how does that work

because like i'm i don't know i'm used to being the boss i'm used to yeah there needs to be a boss i mean i'm not calling for the dismantling of hierarchy okay i'm saying we need to reimagine hierarchy not just as a command and control, but as a way to facilitate collective flow. So we get into those zone experiences and allow us to each other to outperform ourselves. Like the team I was on did when I was 16 and others have their own experience. So what does this look like? Because normally it's a pyramid sort of scale. Is this a circle scale or how does it work? I remember when I was telling my daughter about this years ago, when I was just beginning to put

these ideas and thoughts together and having conversation like this, and she was like 10 years old. And I said, does this make any sense to you? I was practicing to get some clarity. And she said, yeah, it's like this. And then she held like a vertical line straight this way. And what you're talking about is a circle like this, having the circle. And yes, there is that transition. However, like I say, the hierarchy in my mind needs to be reimagined or repurposed. Because particularly in times of crisis, if I've got my daughters, if the house is burning down and I gather my daughters to the kitchen table for a dialogue, I'm irresponsible. And that's the time to give orders and to be the boss. And it's okay here. And we need that.

But it can be done in such a way that doesn't deter creativity and participation, but can enhance it. There you go. One of the things you talk about is some different principles. Collective flow, panarchy, if I'm pronouncing that correctly. Yes, you are. Simultaneity and consilience, if I'm pronouncing all those correctly. Yes. Simultaneity.

Is that a real word? Is that something? Simultaneity. Yeah. In fact, Einstein used the word to describe some of his work at one time. I feel smarter already. Science. I just smarter already. Science. I just gained five IQ points, which I had five when I started,

so now we're up to ten. Hey, he doubled it. That's what they call a callback. So tell us about those. What was that? Tell us about the collective flow. Oh, okay. Yeah, collective flow oh okay yeah collective flow i mentioned the that experience of kind of being lifted and guided by an energy greater than ourselves and

greater than the sum of the parts which is the way people experience that this is an experience of improvisation i had the opportunity i'm from Chicago, I had the opportunity to enroll within Second City Improvisational Theater and went extensively into their workshops. It's one of the best things I ever did. And in that sense, when you show up in the moment and you're a leader and a follower, then you get into that flow space. They talked about it as follow the follower. Follow the follower is another way of saying lead the leader. And I was really enthralled by this experience. And again, just to remind everybody, improvisation is different than traditional theater.

In traditional theater, you have a predetermined script and you have stars, usually one or two or three stars, and that's it. And that's it. In improv theater, everyone shows up as a star because you're creating the script in the moment. And then you get into that flow space and it is an exhilarating space to be in. And that's what i experienced when i was 16 and i've been figuring out okay how to bring that into my life from the arts and from athletics so that's pretty cool that's pretty cool and are there any big companies that you've seen that have been successful in adopting this how hard is is it to adopt? How long does it take to make the adoption work? Yes. Yeah, there've been several industry leaders that I could name. Capital Group

is one of them. They revered in the financial world, a mutual fund company, and not in the entire company, but in portions of the company over a period of time. And Steelcase and then a company in Cova that used to be Motorist transformed, expanded itself with the purchase and they merged and they came together. And what they did there was very interesting. Dave Kaufman, the CEO, had a two-tier structure. He allowed the hierarchy to continue. And at the same time, he had what he called integrated teams. And these integrated teams were basically permanent cross-functional teams from all over. Because he realized that the problems of today are so complicated and things change so

quickly. You need teams of equals that can respond quickly to these, but that doesn't mean you cut down the hierarchy serves these teams. And so that was one example of more on an organizational level, this application. People are using this it's successful it's unique do you see this being adopted wide scale across the new sort of management paradigm then i certainly do see it i i really think it's the time is exceptional because where we got the resignation that people leave and work why are they they leaving work? They're leaving work because they're not being treated as a full human being. And they want to come to work and bring their whole selves to work and be respected as a full human being. And if you only have hierarchy,

that's not happening. And you can have the integrated teams that they've created, this equal experience within the hierarchy in a way that the hierarchy feeds that and they feed each other. It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. And people want that. They can step into their fuller selves and lead themselves while at work and not have to leave part of themselves at home. Mm-hmm. So it's pretty interesting. So the best thing to do is for people to themselves while at work and not have to leave part of themselves at home. So it's pretty interesting. So the best thing to do is for people to read the book. I know that you do some consulting. You've got your website where you help people along, get them familiar with the process and stuff. I've always looked at, one of the things that was really interesting to me when I saw the PR pitch for your book was every leader, if you're a smart leader, you want to get the best set of people.

And there are people that you try and if they have leadership qualities, the potential to be leaders, you want to keep them within the organization. You want to identify them. You also want to develop them. You want to make them feel empowered, especially in a world that we're living in right now where there's a lot of turnover where people aren't feeling fulfilled. And they're like, yeah, this job is doing it for me. And you want to propagate those people and make them go there. But then on top of that, you have to identify the people who aren't going to be leaders. I've been guilty in my past of promoting salespeople to sales manager positions. It was like the dumbest idea ever. It's like great salespeople don't make great sales managers. So I've been guilty of that and learned that in the hard

way. And then the hardest part is you can't just put them back into sales, at least not within your organization. You've got to eject them and burn it. And you're just like, just burn a great salesman. I think once we pulled it off, but he was a really extraordinary salesman. He wanted to go back. But so do you think your model here would be the best way to do that? Develop leaders in an organization, identify them? You bring up a very interesting situation that I've come across a number of times about someone who is a successful salesperson and then gets promoted to an internal position promoted to an internal position and that's not always for everybody but there's a big shift that needs to happen there being a external salesperson is often like playing golf it's you you've got some people around you caddies carrying your stuff but it's a it's an individual effort primarily.

You go internally and try to run an operation. And I've worked with teams where then, okay, now this sales successor is now challenged to deal with, to work with people in operations and in IT and in HR and in legal. And that is a big transition. And to me, it's a transition from leading followers to leading leaders because every one of those people internally is a leader of their own life and a leader of their own department or area of expertise. And so often a successful salesperson will bring his or her success mode into that team and it doesn't work. And because they haven't had the awareness that the context is different. This is more like basketball than it is golf, or it's more like improv theater than it is being a star.

It's not a solo anymore. It's a collective chorus. Having that mentality and then the skills to make that shift are huge in those transitions. As a CEO, which is what I'm used to doing, or as a leader, as a head of some sort of hierarchy, let's put it that way, pyramid, how hard is it to adopt? Do I have to go through some pretty rigorous training or is it just, I've just got to open my mind to a new way of doing it and let it go and try and let it flow? Is it something I'm going to spend some time really figuring out, sit down with the team and go, okay, we're trying something new here, boys.

Boys and girls. Yeah. It depends on the person. Some people lead this way implicitly. That is, they have this kind of approach, but often they don't know why they have it. They're not really able to be explicit about what they're doing that works in this fashion. But I want to say yes, and I want to say no. So for some people, it's just a matter of understanding and getting clear on what they're

already doing. And for other people, it takes more of an effort. And there are core steps. And the key beginning is learning to more in-depth lead one's own life. And that includes all the basics of self-awareness and being able to be aware and to observe oneself and to more and more in the moment make choices from my own centered self rather than just reacting to other people or external circumstances. That's foundational to leading one's own life and to leading leaders. That's a core practice as well as what I call curious conviction. Tell us what that means. To me, the curious conviction is the way we lead each other as leaders. And there's three steps to it. Let's step back before we get to the three steps.

So I remember talking to the CFO of a major financial company about this notion of curious conviction. And he was like, hey, now wait. I know how to bring a conviction in one moment. And I know how to bring a curiosity in another moment. But how do I bring a curiosity and a conviction at the same time? And to me, that is a fabulous question because that, that, if, as I do that, as your team does that, and you do that, you start to unlock and move into that area of collective more and more consistently. But so often we do one, we either lead with our conviction or we follow with our curiosity. We either teach with our conviction

or we learn with our curiosity. And this is the either or of what we've inherited as leadership. You either lead or you follow. And that's great. But now's the time to build on that, to have consistent collective flow by learning to lead and follow at the same time in the same action via a curious conviction. Now, you've got something I'm looking at here on your website called, let me see if I can say that word right. Is it scale? Oh, it disappeared on me. It's going through the simultaneity. You've got an assessment thing for leadership, the Women's Assessment Gauge on here.

Tell us a little bit about that because I'm curious. I'm actually going through it here. Great question. You're asking about the term simultaneity. The term, but I'm also, what does this do on your website? I think this is cool. The quiz, yeah. Yeah.

So the term simultaneity comes from the notion of simultaneously and spontaneity. And so simultaneity is an attempt to integrate those two. And what we're integrating here is the idea of leading and following at the same time. Two seemingly opposite ideas that we're doing at the same time. Now, that's an example drawing back to consilience that I mentioned earlier in the beginning of our conversation. The jumping together of opposites is the fundamental evolutionary impulse that creates life and sustains life. We're bringing that same principle to leadership, that it's the jumping together of

leading and following that opens up a new area of innovation and collective innovation more and more in the moment. And so that's what simultaneity is about. Leading and following is a term that encapsulates leading and following at the same time through a curious conviction. Okay. Okay. And the quiz helps a person gauge all.

How much am I a leader? Am I a follower? When do I lead and follower? Where am I already doing this? And how can I learn to do more? It's a self-reflective exercise. This is an interesting question that I'm confused on. I'm not sure if it's because I'm producing the show and doing a few things in my brain at once. How often do you experience

synergy greater than the sum of the parts? Yes. How often? Yeah. What is a synergy in what context? This is in the context of a team okay of an organizational team and to me synergy is another way different takes on the word but it's that that notion of people talk about it is the energy greater than the sum of the parts it's that notion of wow we're really in a flow space here we thought this was going to take us all weekend and it's friday on it's noon on midnight on friday and we're done with this how do we do that these moments when people come together and then create something that just wows them and that's what we mean by the synergy collects a flow oh that's cool. What else do we want to tease out or touch on in your book that can entice people to pick it up?

I think one thing is this whole notion of DEI. It's huge. It's paramount for organizations and our society. And to your point about the hierarchy, we're trying to implement DEI, diversity, equity, inclusion, within the context of a hierarchy that is built upon conformity, inequity, and exclusion, the opposite of diversity, equity, and inclusion. And we need to recognize this shift in context if we're going to be successful in our DEI programs. And what I've had my clients tell me is that we, the leader, in their experience, we, the leader, is a diversity, equity, and inclusion operating system. So it's not about going to training. It's about, hey, being celebrating and experiencing our diversity,

showing up as equals to each other, and not just including but valuing everybody. That's the fundamental operating system of we the leader that I outlined in the beginning. We have me the leader, the diversifier, the common purpose as the equalizer, and we the leader as the unifier. Everyone's different. Everyone's equal. And everyone's not just included, but everyone is vital. And the metaphor there is a puzzle. We each need more pieces of the puzzle.

And we need to bring them forward and not hold them back or not impose ours as the whole piece in order to get into this collective flow space. Very interesting. Very interesting. Is that making sense? Yeah. I've got to get into the book and really dig into the book. But we've given a nice tease out to listeners so they can get an idea and preorder the book.

Anything else you want to touch on or tease out? Read the book. Yeah. I just I want to emphasize this notion of the possibilities of bringing one's whole self to work and everyone doing that. And it doesn't have to result in a cluster mess of too many chefs in the kitchen. Often it does, but we can get beyond that. And we are getting beyond that. And that's the future of leadership.

Leadership is evolving. I mean, before 1969, leadership was primarily about one boss commanding control, and that was necessary. And then in 69, we came up with these ideas of servant leadership and situational leadership. You either lead or you follow. and that was a huge point of evolution it was spectacular and that's what collaboration is about and but what's evolving now given the complexity of our world and this this this torrid change is we need to learn how to get into collective flow consistently, not let it just be an accident. And in order to that, we need to lead and follow at the same time, and then we get into that collective flow. So it's evolving from one leader to lead or follow to lead and follow.

And I like to use that term evolve because when I say evolve, I mean include and transcend. We're not dishing the need for hierarchy. It's included, but we transcend it. We're not dishing the need to lead or follow depending on situation. That's spectacular and it's very important, but we include it and transcend it to get into collective flow where we lead and follow at the same. There you go. There you go. As we go out, give us your plugs so people can find you on the interweb, Jeff, and get to know more about you.

I'm just plugging the www.wetheleader.com. We the leader.com. The website is up and love for you to visit take the quiz and get further acquainted there you go thanks for coming on the show Jeff we really appreciate you coming by Chris it's been fun thanks for having me thank you thanks to my audience for tuning in go to

youtube.com fortune ask Chris Voss hit that bell notification button go to goodreads.com fortune ask Chris Voss see everything we're reading and reviewing over there also go to Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, all those different places. There's the big LinkedIn newsletter that's

really hot right now. That thing's going off pretty good. Check that out as well in our big groups over there. Thanks, guys, for tuning in. Be good to each other, and we'll see you guys next time. So we're excited to announce my new book is coming out. It's called Beacons of Leadership, Inspiring Lessons of Success in Business and Innovation. It's going to be coming

out on October 5th, 2021. And I'm really excited for you to get a chance to read this book. It's filled with a multitude of my insightful stories, lessons, my life, and experiences in leadership and character. I give you some of the secrets from my CEO Entrepreneur Toolbox that I use to scale my business success, innovate, and build a multitude of companies. I've been a CEO for, what is it, like 33, 35 years now. We talk about leadership, the importance of leadership, how to become a great leader, and how anyone can become a great leader as well. So you can pre-order the book right now wherever fine books are sold.

But the best thing to do on getting a pre-order deal is to go to beaconsofleadership.com. That's beaconsofleadership.com. On there, you can find several packages you can take advantage of in ordering the book. And for the same price of what you can get it from someplace else like Amazon, you can get all sorts of extra goodies that we've taken and given away. Different collectors, limited edition, custom made numbered book plates that are going to be autographed by me. There's all sorts of other goodies that you can get when you buy the book from beaconsofleadership.com.

So be sure to go there, check it out or order the book wherever fine books are sold.