The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Where Do We Go From Here?: Helping Adoptive Parents Guide Their Children Through Trauma & Into Positive Safe Relationships™ by Scotty Aemis

Episode Date: April 15, 2024

Where Do We Go From Here?: Helping Adoptive Parents Guide Their Children Through Trauma & Into Positive Safe Relationships™ by Scotty Aemis https://amzn.to/4cYHx0r Childtraumasherpa.com Are you feeling hopeless and lost in a maze of parenting decisions? Are you and your family struggling with the behaviors of your adopted child? Does it seem like they are out of control and acting out at school and home? This book will offer you hope and rekindle the gratitude you had when you first began this journey. The paradox is that everything we’ve been taught, or might logically think, doesn’t work with the trauma adoptive kids experience. Our instincts are to try harder, push harder, and “solve” the problem. But, in fact, the opposite is true. Instead of “fixing” the problem, we need to look at creating a supportive environment in which your child can heal. “What I learned is that the way forward is available if parents are provided the resources, support, and information they need in order to make good decisions for their kids. I am dedicated to support fellow parents who are on a similar journey because all children have the right to live lives of purpose and significance as God intended.”

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast. The hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show. The preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready. Get ready. Strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times, because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. It's Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com. There you go, ladies and gentlemen. For 16 years, we've been bringing you the most brilliant people. None of them are me, of course.

The CEOs, the billionaires, the presidential advisors, the astronauts, the people who write all the amazing books, the authors. They share with you their stories, their journeys, and they enlighten your mind and brighten your world. And brighten your world. Is that a word? And brighten your world and make you smurder. And then you won't be as dumb as I am.

So that's what we always have on the show. The main thing we ask is there's a little trade-off here. It's very easy. It's free. We ask you to refer the show to your family, friends, and relatives. Go to Goodreads.com, 4chatschrisfast, LinkedIn.com, 4chatschrisfast, chrisfast1 on the TikTok, and chrisfastfacebook.com. As always, we have amazing authors on the show. The gentleman we have on today is Scotty Amos.

He's the author of the newest book that came out May 29th, 2023. It's called Where Do We Go From Here? Helping Adoptive Parents Guide Their Children Through Trauma and Into Positive, Safe Relationships. This is an important thing because if you're familiar with children and trauma, of course, obviously they're entering the area of an adoptive parent. There's probably an issue that's taken them away from their parent parents, and there probably is a continuation they're going to have in life unless it gets addressed. Scotty Amos is passionate about helping parents navigate childhood trauma.

After he and his wife adopted two children, they found themselves learning everything they could about helping their navigate childhood trauma. After he and his wife adopted two children, they found themselves learning everything they could about helping their children thrive. Everything that felt instinctually right was actually not helpful for children trying to heal from trauma. That sent him on a journey to develop his PSR, that stands for Positive Safe Relationships,

approach to parenting. It's also helpful for all parent and children and especially for those navigating childhood trauma welcome to the show scotty how are you thank you chris very well i appreciate the invite there you go and thank you for coming on we really appreciate it we talk about this trauma a lot on the show i think we're all traumatized from the chris flash show after 16 years. Give us your dot coms. Where do you want people to find you on the interwebs? It's ctsherpa or childtraumasherpa.com

and we have a full bit of blogs, information. We have a counselor in case anybody needs to talk and available for the book. All proceeds go to a trauma-informed school, so there's no profit-taking in any way, shape, or form.

This is a passion and a belief that I want to reach out to other parents going through the same process. There you go. So, Scott, give us a 30,000 overview of the book. Very quickly, what I learned, what we learned through our experience with childhood trauma really came from almost having our kids taken away from us in court. It was six years after we had adopted them from Russia, and we didn't know how to handle them.

We didn't know how to handle the way of behavior, and everything we were taught about parenting ended up making it worse. It's only then, when we were faced with that dilemma, that problem of losing our kids, that we delved deeply into what is trauma? I mean, they didn't even tell us about trauma. And we realized that everything, it's almost a paradox. Everything we're ever taught is upside down and that we need to start with a completely different process

and different way of parenting in order to allow our children to heal over time. There you go. And it's hard to address, probably even more so in an adoptive parent situation because they can't go resolve whatever those issues are in a psychologist's room with their parents or their biological parents. And then you're not really up to speed on what sort of experience they had. You may have heard something, but you really don't know maybe sometimes what those kids have gone through and so you know you're kind of flying blind is that a good assumption that is very true and one of the big challenges though is

that as parents we tend to reach out to professionals psychologists who the latest neuroscientist is and all of a sudden we're getting three or four different option ideas telling us to do three or four different things. And they end up crossing each other out, nothing happens, and they stay having a problem. I mean, I call this process of re-traumatization. And my book really is about having parents taking control. We're in charge. And we have to choose the specialists, the coaches, the trainers, the schools that will help our children heal the way we envision it for. There you go. And I imagine, you know, children aren't going to talk about their trauma. You know, one of the challenges that children have is they don't they don't really identify it like when your child is you know a

certain age you don't understand that what maybe sexually was done to you you don't understand how it's a bad thing or how it maybe affected you in many cases i think you correct me if i'm wrong subconscious the subconscious mind shuts that or blocks it out because you can't handle at that time it's overwhelming and so it will block that from the thing. We've had a lot of people on our show that have talked about that where their minds blocked out their trauma and decades later it appears. It's a great point. And what I like to say or communicate is that trauma is actually a brain injury.

It's not a condition. It's not something that you can press a button and either have or don't have. The brain is actually rewired to work off the lowest level, the brain stem or the reptilian brain, as they say, which means the child's constantly in fear and flight mode. And that's, you know, for you and me, that'd be almost like having a, I don't know, a back spasm in your brain constantly for your every day, all day long. Or someone jumping out of a bush at you and you're me, that would be almost like having a back spasm in your brain constantly for every day all day long.

Or someone jumping out of a bush at you and you're like, ah! Exactly. And then we wonder because then what we do is we react to our children and their behavior. And then that just further creates more trauma because now they're seeing this fear coming from their parents and their growth or their foster parents or their, or their guardians. And so that's why we need to take a completely different look, a paradoxical look in terms of, okay, now what do we really need to do to get them out of the, out of the brainstem and to the upper brain or the, or the, where they can reason and think and go through the process.

It takes a long time. Wow. Wow. Wow. And does it take a lot of counseling? It'll take counseling. Oftentimes it takes medicine. It'll take what I call these positive relationships in every part of their life. Because a child can, without, parents don't even know it.

I mean, we'll give parents as much grace on this as possible. That we just naturally put them in school. They're getting re-traumatized constantly on the school bus, at lunch, in the playtime. The teachers don't respect it. They all want to do consequences. Consequences don't work with kids with trauma because it's not relationship-based. All healing will come through relationships And until you can build a framework for them That is safe and based on relationships

They won't heal There you go One thing we talk about is there's some people that I guess if they're trauma-based And they haven't healed They'll take those traumas into new Interpersonal loving sort of relationships Where they're trying to find a partner and that

will cause issues. So when you say the relationship is needed to heal, you're not talking about those type of relationships, right? No, we're talking about a relationship in terms of a safety. Children are looking for as much safety as possible so that they can operate naturally. They want to know, am I safe? Do you love me? Can you help me? If you can answer those three questions with a yes, then you're probably in a situation that they can begin to grow,

begin to heal. They will heal on their own. We don't have to press a button. They will heal if we can create an environment. If they have the safety and security, right? Yes. So for my kids i i had a took a special school for them that was strictly for trauma i we picked social

organizations specifically with people who understood trauma and could deal with it even even we happen to go to church but even our church there were certain churches that had no time for it and certain churches that do or or temples or whatever institution that the parents might be involved in. Every single one has to be chosen by the parents about what is safe and what is encouraging for that child. There you go. Now, I imagine there's no way around this. As an adopted parent, do you have to assume there's some sort of trauma with your child? I mean, number one, they've been taken away from their parents.

That's traumatic. They don't understand why they're being shuffled around, put in homes. They don't understand why mommy drinks too much or daddy drinks too much or someone hits. I've had girlfriends when I was in high school and stuff. I had girlfriends that had issues from their childhood, and they were passed around through adoptive parents. And sometimes the adoptive parents are more dangerous than their own parents. I'm not trying to throw all adoptive parents in the bag, of course, in that one. But there were some that were definitely predatory. And that just seemed to escalate things worse so do you have to assume

that 100 of the time that whatever child is coming to you in an adoption scenario you're probably going to have to deal with these issues i would say yes you're going to one you have to assume because it's not only neglect it's it's it's the abuse both physical and sexual it can be it can be something as simple as i shouldn't say simple, as devastating as not even having enough food to eat. And the children are going through that process. It could be something as simple as a divorce or any kind of emotional reaction that the children are going to have to a difficult situation in their caregivers' lives or lack of caregivers. Any of those situations. So in an adoption, an adoptive situation, again, it was never taught and counseled on what to do when we did it and still isn't for the most part when I talk to other parents.

But one should assume that almost 100% of the time that there's going to be trauma involved. There you go. Now, let me ask you about this because I've seen this in, I think a lot of adoptees have this, and I have no scientific data to back that up. So, psychologist, you're welcome to email me and tell me how stupid I am. But it seems to me from my polling, and I'm a bit of a social scientist poller, but I'm on a voluntary scale. I don't get paid for my opinion. But I noticed that a lot of adoptive children they one of the traumas i think that they deal with is the abandonment issue why did mommy and daddy give up on me

and it seems like they they reach a certain age where they go try and find that answer and and i think one of the traumas they have is feeling abandoned, feeling rejected. Like, mommy rejected me. Mommy worthy. Yeah, worthiness. There you go. Like, you know, maybe mommy had an addiction problem or daddy had an addiction problem. But they don't fully understand why they were given up.

And they want to square that circle basically you know everybody kind of wants to go home and and see if it's still the same or something i don't know and so is there a way to heal that trauma or is that just a journey they're going to have to take something what i've learned over the years is that there is no you don't check a box and say oh it's done that our kids are going to go through cycles as they age, and as they get into the tweens, and then the teens, and then the late teens, and the 20s, they're going to have other issues, and they're going to have to deal with it all over again, and it comes out in different ways.

Sometimes it comes out in, why did this happen to me? Am I worthy? Because they're trying to find their way in their life, right? They're trying to understand their identity, and they're trying to understand, was this a negative or is this a positive? What does this mean about me? And really what adoptive parents, all parents, because really kids that aren't from adoption are going to go through the same, thinking the same process anyway, is just be there, be safe, be there for them, answer their questions and let them go through the process.

Some will want to go investigate. Some will want to go visit. Some won't want to be interested at all. And as long as they know that whatever choice they make is just part of the process, you know, it's what they need to heal. Now, tell us about your background and upbringing. What got you into this point, Motivated to Write the Book? I think we had touched a little bit on, you bit on the fact that you did adopt two kids. What was your training and background, and what made you want to adopt this full-time?

Tell us how you were raised. Actually, everything I learned up until we adopted kids has nothing to do with trauma or adopting kids. So you went right into the baby in the bathwater. Baby in the bathwater. My wife's a pediatrician, and she worked for the World Health Organization for a number of years, and we thought this was the right thing to do for our family, and we really wanted to reach out and do what we thought was good for us as well as for our faith. And we thought that this happened, and everybody would be joyful that we brought two kids into our house

and everybody would be great and wonderful and the world would be just back on center again. And we were wrong. I mean, you could say you were right. It was a nice thing to do. But I mean, maybe the assumption that everything would be perfect was wrong. Yes. I think we do that, but you're trying to do the right thing, and you realize that there's more to it than what it takes.

Now, did you have children that were interacting with these children? Did you have children first, and then they came in, or did you just have the two of them? We did not. This was our second marriage, so this was a new, new thing for both of us. I did also want to say that with, with kids and with parents is bringing them in into the house, it's, it's an amazing journey for anybody who's considering it and thinking about it, you know, we're talking about trauma, but there's

also just incredible amount of wonderful. Great, funny, hilarious times. You know, I just think back to that. You know, the first time we had, my kids were three and four when they came. And that following summer, for example, we had just sitting down and having some corn on the cob. And I remember looking over after a good part of dinner, looking over and noticing that, wait a second, my daughter's, where's my daughter's cob? Where'd it go? She didn't know any better.

She ate the whole thing. She ate the cob itself? Yeah, absolutely. Then you're hungry. Good for you. No one ever told her that the cob is not part of the corn. That's going to be rough coming out of the other side, but that's another story. That's right. But those are just fun stories that they have with kids.

And in the adoption world, especially international adoption, hunger and need for food is a huge thing. And I'm sure parents out there who have experienced the same thing know that as well. They're constantly looking for food anywhere, anyhow, because they have that concern about where is the next meal coming from. That's true. Yeah. I know a lot of poor kids, one of the big issues they have is they don't have enough nutrients. I mean, it got so bad that schools finally had to kick in and start making breakfast for these kids. And they were finding that.

That was a big reason they had problems and stuff. So how do you, I'm sure there's lots of stuff in the book, but how do you figure out, like if you have a kid who's acting up, how do you figure out that there's some trauma in their history in the way they're behaving as opposed to, you know, they're just doing things kids do at a certain age like terrible twos or something. It's a couple different things. There is something called the ACE scores and I'm sure your psychologists in the past have talked about it, but it's a series of 10 to 20 questions and how many instances that a child has that marks those. And if it's a certain number, then it's probably more than just an odd acting up type of thing, issue here or there.

And that's one way. Two is if it doesn't go away, if it gets worse, and how they're you through their caregivers or parents that's probably a a telltale sign and knowing some sort of their background you know was there a what did this happen after a significant incident you know in my case it was adoption but in other cases trauma comes from many different other different situations so it's annoying and then and then trying different things i mean the thing, and I'm sure you know this, is that many schools immediately go right into the autism world. They think a child is acting up, has to have autism. And therefore, they have to go right into the BAA behavioral therapy methodology of solving it. All those are the exact opposite.

Will even trigger more trauma trauma so if you see those things then you're beginning to say hey maybe this isn't the right therapy and and you begin to reach out and try to reach out to other people like me who who have seen it observed it and can give advice say hey try this or talk to some other people that have an expertise bring in if you're going to have a counselor don't bring a a counselor who has expertise in behavioral management. Bring a counselor who has an expertise in trauma on relationship building. There is where you're going to get. And then you'll begin to see some of the different answers and how they react and things like that. It sounds like there's various ways you need to be optioned to

deal with the various ways of trauma the child may be experiencing. Yes. And in my case you know we got we were lucky we got involved in a trauma-based school alternative school early on we happen to have one as a kid a lot of high schools but and in fact you know might even see my label i got involved in the school called lakeside, which is here in the Philadelphia area. But they're national and they're based on Bruce Perry. I don't know if you've had Bruce Perry on as a guest yet, but he's a neuroscientist who just finished a book with Oprah about a year ago. And his whole theory is that it's brain-based, it's scientist, scientific, and it's all based on relationships.

And the school is based on that and everything that I teach and I counsel other people are based on the same methodology. There you go. It is so important you address this early because I've seen what relationships are like when both people are trauma and they have a trauma, I forget what they call it, trauma bond or trauma relationship. It's like two people, one person's got broken glass a

bag of broken glass in their history another one's got a box of razor blades and they're like hey let's play together and see if we can resolve our trauma by rebuilding the scenario that our parents had and see if it ends up different in the result and you're like no this half these trying to trying to set up the same scenario and get a different outcome is half the problem your parents had. So don't create that. Fix the trauma. Do the work. And a lot of people, they don't want to do the work.

And it's supposed to get this taken care of in childhood. One of the great lines that I actually stole from Jimmy Johnson, the football coach, and he was talking about football, but it applies to what we're doing. It's not how many great things you do for your kids. It's how many negative things you can eliminate. It's creating that environment. They will heal if you can create that environment. And sometimes that environment means we're not going to go see their grandparents this holiday season because they can't deal with it. We're not going to go do this event or that event.

And it's tough and it's difficult. It makes you get frustrated, but it's safe because they don't need the constant variation in what's going on in their lives. There you go. Jimmy Johnson explains why Dallas isn't one shit since Q3. I think we square that up right now. So there you go. Dallas fans are angry at me

right now. It's okay, folks. I'm a Raiders fan. We haven't been to the Super Bowl in a long time either. It's okay. We're in the same boat. Probably will be for time to come. So what are some other tips you can give to people, advice on identifying this and helping the child through trauma? Is there a certain... There's someone who uses the word containment, and I don't like the word containment because it sounds like you get put into a cage. who's gone through trauma or someone who's insecure can feel secure around you because you provide that environment for them of safety and security and thereby they're not constantly in that fight or flight mode tell us about that i guess if you'd like and that's what a lot of the theory that i see my theory is much more is much more applicable as opposed to theoretical like do this do this it's i go through a step-by-step process that I recommend parents to do when they can as they can because they can't do everything and we have to do whatever is

possible within our lives and in the whole bit but some of the various things like a lot of what I talk about is on the parents as opposed to the child if the if you're able to set up the situation the child will develop will heal so i i use lines like you want to be author you want to have authority not authoritarianism you know authority is asked for right is given by the child because they trust you and they connect with you authoritarianism is very much about power and i will you will do what i say because I'm the parent it's a huge difference a different way of thinking a different way of acting it's it there's that

when the kids do act up we have this tendency to want to give penalties when I want to give timeouts we want to give it's the exact opposite instead of penalties and and timeouts have times time ends and have instead of disciplines and yelling and and penalties, have time-ins and have, instead of disciplines and yelling and penalties, have things like, okay, we're going to do this together and we're going to process this and do the whole process. I mean, I think a lot of people in the trauma world know the three R's, which is the regulation relationship reason. But when a child is acting up, the first thing to do is not react to the reaction.

First thing to do is get him to regulate and then work on that relationship. And then only after that relationship is, then can you deal on the reason. What did you do wrong? How can we do that differently? How can we perform better next time? We have the same situation come up.

And it's a pattern over and over. And over time, the kids will grow and will adapt to it and learn how to, okay, I don't need to overreact. I don't need to throw my little fire truck at my mom or yell or scream or things like that yeah i i get trauma being a restaurant sometimes when kids are there on planes so i need some help for that so i had a book about how to recover from that trauma anyway i like kids as long as they're not mine and that's that but yeah so let me ask you this if i i know there's some times where either the mother or father is recovered from whatever they were going through. Maybe it was addiction.

Maybe it was prison. Maybe it was, you know, whatever their tragedy was. And it's interesting how trauma begets trauma begets trauma begets trauma. Generational trauma, they call it. Generational trauma, yeah. Yeah. generational trauma they call it generational trauma yeah yeah and so you know i imagine there's a certain percentage of cases where the the mother the the the originating biological parent gets fixed or you know at least is working on getting fixed right have you ever seen a case where you

know one of the things you do as a doctor parent is you try and get that reseal that circle not necessarily giving the kid back but basically try and see if you can counsel the healing of the trauma that maybe you've come from that biological parent with the child and counseling and see if there's a way to resolve that i don't know it's it's interesting you say that that you know a lot of parents who have trauma don't even realize they have trauma they just think it's their natural order of things. And then they pass it on to the next generation and the next generation, as you said. And then the question is, how do you break that cycle?

Right? And that's where organizations like, again, I'm not making any money whatsoever, but the organization I'm with, Lakeside, I'm on the board of directors. They have a training process. Parents can log in and learn about, hey, what are we doing right or wrong? What do we need to do to heal? Who do I need to heal? You know, who can help me through this process?

It's a lot harder as an adult and as a child because the child's brain is constantly growing and rewiring. And we can do it over time. A parent, adult has to be a little bit more cautious and really think about what they're doing every moment. And is this, am I reacting to this off past times or am I thinking this one through? Am I being more deliberate and processing it and what I'm saying and doing to my children and everybody around me. I mean, trauma doesn't go away. And it can be re-traumatized by somebody saying the wrong thing at the wrong time or the wrong event, and you just never know. And it's not going away, but everything can be better.

We can do a lot better with our kids, and then eventually it'll work its way through the adults. There you go. That's my feeling of it. My specialty is on childhood trauma because I think that's where it can be stopped. That's where it can be healed. And we need more good parents in this world. So maybe a question someone is asking in the audience is, least my brain they are is is is in your experience and

seeing what you've seen from other parents is it worth it to go down this journey is it worth it to adopt kids and you know have to go through this there's a lot of work here involved really yes and people can say that whether whether their kids are their star star athlete and academic or or have issues with trauma it is worth it because there's such joy in watching children grow and watching children improve their lives and and seeing what they what they have came from and where they're where they're going and how what what positive impact they can make on our society. It's just an exciting, amazing thing sometimes to be part of that process. And really, and I'm sure if you talk to other adoptive parents, they'll all say the same thing.

We get more out of it than we give. We might say, hey, this is hard, this is difficult, this process is this. But what we get back, the love and joy is tremendous and there you know it's very much worth it yeah i know that getting back is a big thing when i put my kids up for adoption i got some pretty good money for him and bought me in a really nice bmw and that giving back part is great that's right and then and then put that onIA, and then you're off the road. There you go. I sold them to Chinese Organ Harvester.

But no, folks, I'm just kidding. I sent them to military school, and they'll be out when they're 18, and I'll see them then. They get to send me a call on a postcard once a year. But I love them. I love whatever their names are. There you go. But, yeah, it's always good.

When they're two or three, just ship them off to military school. Tell them to call you from West Point later. And you know, it's a great leadership program, the military. And it makes great people. At least we've had them on the show. And yeah, you don't have to deal with all this work that's involved with reading books

and parenting and stuff. They come to you when they're 18, and hopefully you've moved and faked your death by then so they can't find you. That's what we're up to on our end. So there you go. Yeah, one other little nugget to this that I work with, which is a line that we use is,

the value of your love is not dependent on your child's responses. So you have to think about that too often we were conditional on our love I love you but I want you to do this and if you don't do this I'm going to penalize you that's not but the value is that we get is not from their responses the value is it has to be elsewhere and as especially as adoptive parents, we're looking at maybe a greater calling and that we're not doing it to get the short-term return, so to speak. It's not a product.

It's not a book. Yeah, because they're probably challenged on returning love or just even feeling like they can or identifying what they are because they're stuck in that fear of flight mode fight or flight mode and so you said earlier about the worthiness who is this person loving me i'm not worthy of this what can this be why am i doing what you know and and only through that process can you get the attachment to the attachment you get the authority and through that authority you can then learn and teach and let them grow yeah i would imagine

that there's something you said that i had an idea on and i think it tripped out of the old brain but basically i don't know it's just it really is just about security with these kids so final thoughts as we go out tell people where they can order the book and then what actually before we round out tell me about your website. What services do you offer there? I notice there's some counseling, some path of healing. What do you do there as the Child Trauma Sherpa? Thank you. Yeah, Child Trauma Sherpa or CT Sherpa, whichever, depending on how well someone spells.

Our site provides a few information, a number of blogs with a lot of background and information on trauma and people to read. It has direct links to the school that I'm with, Lakeside, that is specifically built around information on trauma and training. If you're part of an organization or part of an association or a they have special programs that they that they're teaching now people from all throughout the united states even places in australia and in europe that we're training and then there's we do have a counseling process free call on the first session just to chat and talk to a counselor we have who's specialized in trauma and can just begin the process if it's something you need to talk about and have a conversation with. And, of course, you can get the book.

Order up the book wherever fine books are sold. There's also a free guide on how to empower your child's education journey. You can sign up for there on your website. So this is great resources for parents. You know, I never, we've had so many discussions about parenting, trauma, and children and stuff on the show, but no one's ever brought this angle. And it sounds like you've tapped into something that's much needed that hasn't been covered much you know the the adoptive parent going through this stuff

which you know i mean it's hard enough as it is i imagine being an adoptive parent because you know you it's a whole different pawn that's why I haven't told any of my kids that they've been adopted. That's right. I never will. No, I'm just kidding. So there you go. Thank you very much for coming on the show. We really appreciate it.

Give us the dot coms one more time as we go out, Scotty. Thank you, Chris. It's ChildTraumaSherpa or CTSherpa.com, and we look forward to responding and connecting and building a group where everybody can help each other there you go folks order up the book wherever fine books are sold you can find it on amazon where do we go from here helping adoptive parents guide their children through trauma into positive safe relationships came out may 29th 2023 and i'll put a little psa here and you've probably heard from me before as my audience please if you have trauma get help right away call a 1-800 number for

psychiatrists but please work with professionals don't hire amateurs don't hire people aren't licensed don't don't buy crystals go go deal with the professional license thing don't do your own work you can't hear on trauma you need some help professional license help so please do it because i guarantee you if you don't fix it and don't do the work you're going to carry that through life it's going to affect your relationships it's going to affect your job it's going to affect your income it's going to affect all of your life and you really don't want to get to be 50 years old and look back and go maybe i should fix that now that i've made this you know this burning mess behind me of wreckage so don't be like me basically anyway guys go to goodreads.com

fortresschrisfoss linkedin.com fortresschrisfoss chrisfoss1 on the tiktok and all those crazy places on the internet thanks for tuning in be good to each other stay safe and we'll see you next time