The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – White House Wild Child: How Alice Roosevelt Broke All the Rules and Won the Heart of America by Shelley Fraser Mickle

Episode Date: October 8, 2023

White House Wild Child: How Alice Roosevelt Broke All the Rules and Won the Heart of America by Shelley Fraser Mickle https://amzn.to/3Q78PID The fascinating historical biography of America’s most memorable first daughter, Alice Roosevelt, whose free spirit and status made her the Princess Diana and Jackie O of the early 20th century. Perfect for readers of female-centric biographies like The Daughters of Yalta and for fans of the glitzy drama of The Gilded Age and The Crown. “I can do one of two things, I can be President of the United States or I can control Alice. I cannot possibly do both.”—Theodore Roosevelt During Theodore Roosevelt’s presidency—from 1901 to 1909, when Mark Twain called him the most popular man in America—his daughter Alice Roosevelt mesmerized the world with her antics and beauty. Alice was known for carrying a gun, a copy of the Constitution, and a green snake in her purse. When her father told her she couldn’t smoke under his roof, she climbed to the top of the White House and smoked on the roof. She became the most famous woman in America—and even the world—predating Princess Diana and Jackie Kennedy as an object of public obsession. As her celebrity grew, she continued to buck tradition, push against social norms, and pull political sway behind the curtain of privilege and access. She was known for her acerbic wit and outspoken tendencies which hypnotized both the social and political world. Brilliantly researched and powerfully told, Shelley Fraser Mickle places the reader in the time and place of Alice and asks what would it have been like to be a strong-willed powerful woman of that day. Drawn from primary and secondary sources, Alice’s life comes into focus in this historical celebration of an extraordinary woman ahead of her time.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. It's Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com, thechrisvossshow.com. Welcome to the big show, my family and friends. For 15 years, we've been bringing you the Chris Voss Show podcast family, the billionaires, the CEOs, the hottest authors, the Pulitzer Prize winners,

the astronauts, the White House advisors, you name it, have all been on the show. And we just keep bringing you, what is it, three to four new shows a weekday and 15 to 20 shows a week so please keep up you're required to listen to every single show as a podcast listener and there will be a test on saturday uh anyway folks we have an amazing author on the show she's written a ton a tonnage more like a ton a tonnage she's written a lot of books and she's going to be talking to us about her latest book that just released, what, two days ago, October 3rd, 2023. The book is entitled White House Wild Child, How Alice Roosevelt Broke All the Rules and Won the Heart of America. So

we're going to be talking about history and some of the cool aspects of history that maybe were uncovered. i don't know if they've been talked about before but we're going to find out shelly frazier mickle joins us on the show today we'll be talking with her about her amazing book she was a commentator for npr's morning edition for six years beginning in 2000 when she was asked to give a national commentary on her state of florida's coming up the 2000 presidential election. I remember that.

Uh, she likes to say she borrowed her favorite quote from a South Florida geyser who told her to fire back. If you don't like the way we vote, wait till you see us drive. Is that a Florida joke? It must be, uh,

for six years, she entertained radio listeners by her Southern storytelling. We included outrageous tales of her fictional family. When she tried out one of these stories on a friend, saying she planned to open a story for the Olympics by saying her Uncle Bill was practicing for the broad jump by leaping over Aunt Feline, her friend said,

Oh my God, Shelly, don't do that. NPR is dignified. Other times, she learned not to ask for her friend said, oh my God, Shelly, don't do that. NPR is dignified. Other times, she learned not to ask for her friend's advice and recorded hilarious stories that somehow ended up getting her banned from radio, only from the Junior League. Welcome to the show, Shelly. How are you? I'm doing great. Congratulations on this great show. Thank you very much, and congratulations on your new book. It's an honor to have you as well. Give us your dot-coms or wherever you want people to find you on the interwebs please well i don't have a website um i let simon and schuster do that at one time you can google me which sounds a bit

raunchy but that's what we do all the time so you can google jellie frazier mickkel and a bunch of stuff will come up. There you go. Anyway, it's going to be fun to talk about this book. There you go. Yeah, it just came out and I had a journalist do a feature on it and he called me up like a week later after he read it. And he said, Shelley, you made half of this up, didn't you? Because he knew I had done all that in NPR. And I said, oh, no, the-fiction police would come and get me. Everything is documented. It's narrative history,

which means it's all facts. And it was my job to put it together in a very readable format. One of our great historians has said that we live with delusions until history changes us. So, yeah. My psychiatrist says that often to me as well. Yeah, but I think you think about it for a while and it's probably true. So I always like to keep a big fat history book on my bedside table.

So if I die in the middle of the night, it'll make me look good. I'm hoping that I have written a book white house wild child worthy of any bedside table there you go note to self i should put a history book on my side table and move those playboys off the side of the table there so how many books have you written you've written a lot of books or well i've written probably seven novels, a couple of children's books. I was lucky to get the job to write. If a horse has a biography, I wrote it for Barbaro and American Pharaoh because I'm a horse nut. And then I've switched to writing narrative history because to publish a novel today, you have to be cool.

And if I was ever cool, it's all rubbed off. So I decided to try to do narrative history. There you go. So what drew you to this book, White House Wild Child? Well, that's kind of an interesting story, too. You know, I'm lucky enough to be married to a brain surgeon. I need one of those. Yeah.

So he trained under Joe Murray who won the Nobel prize for performing the first successful kidney transplant. So when I was thinking about what nonfiction subject could I write about, my husband said, well, you know that story about Joe putting in the first kidney that would work would make a mighty fine story so I started researching it and his children said give it a try so I got that permission and when I started doing the research I discovered how many historical figures and fictional figures suffered from

kidney disease. And one of those, Alice Hathaway Lee, Alice Roosevelt's mother, who died when she was only two days old of Bright's disease, which is kidney failure. roosevelt was holding her when she died and to make matters even worse on that same day his mother died oh wow in their mansion at the edge of central park and he was so devastated by grief that uh he could not look baby alice in the eye or even say her name. So the silence she interpreted as disapproval. So Alice more or less lived a haunted childhood. And I thought it would be a great story and book to analyze how that affected her, how grief affects a child, how a father's relationship affects a daughter. So let me tell you about some of the things she did to get back at him. That's the fun part.

She was 17 when he became president. And right after that, she became the most photographed woman in the world. You have to think about that. At 17, what that did to her. Oh, wow. She was like the first Princess Diana. And today I think we could compare her to Taylor Swift in the way that she is influencing a generation of young women.

Yeah. When Alice went out on the street, young women surrounded her and applauded her. And she ignited a fashion craze because she had these amazing blue eyes and everybody ran out to buy something called Alice Blue. So she was really an obsession like Taylor Swift is today, if you can believe that. And to me, it's astounding that she has almost evaporated from history.

I had the great job to bring her back so everybody can enjoy her and understand the lessons she leaves us. She grew up in a day. You have to really absorb this. Women's names were not allowed to appear in the newspaper except when they were getting married or were already dead. Yeah, Alice Roosevelt generated more newsprint than even her father as president. And she competed with him to see who would be more popular. And she always won. Oh, there you go.

Well, beauty always wins over intelligence. Well, TR was exceptional. Yeah. Well, TR was exceptional. So I told you about the fact of her dying when she was only two days old. But to get back at him while he was president, she carried in her purse a copy of the Constitution, a dagger, and a green snake named Emily Spinach. A real live snake? Yeah. Wow. A real live snake? Yeah. Wow. A little garter snake.

And this is the real fun part because she was devastatingly beautiful. And at 17, she was just so, her sexuality was blooming. You know, men could not take their eyes off of her. Wow. You see the cover of the book, you'll understand why. And of course, she was realizing that at the time that she had a great power over men. Oh, wow. Yeah.

So when her father told her she couldn't smoke under his roof, she climbed to the roof of the White House and smoked there. And then sent messages to all the journalists that she was up there. Because this is the real fascinating fact. She was pathologically shy and could not speak in public. So everything she did was physical. And when he invited the congressman for the White House garden party, she would walk around them wearing her green snake as jewelry. Oh, wow. And love the looks on the congressman's faces as her snake named Emily

Spinach explored the folds in her dress. Can you imagine? Wasn't that fun? There you go. It seems a bit of mystery, intrigue, and kind of odd sexuality. Oh, yeah. That probably made guys even go, hey, what's going on with this? Oh, yeah.

She had great power and she loved to use her power. So as she she lived to be 96. Wow. Yeah. So as she age, she had to transfer those wild antics into something. So she became like the first Twitter before there was Twitter. And all the presidential candidates went to her house near DuPont Circle in Washington to get her blessing. And I hope that she wouldn't secure them to light up newspapers, but she usually did.

And I'll tell you a couple of things that she said that were absolutely hilarious. She said that Calvin Coolidge looked like he had been weaned on a pickle. And she said Thomas Dewey was like the little man on the wedding cake. And that image never left him. It more or less ruined his political career. She ruined him with the meme, basically. An early version of the meme. And she just got more outrageous, more outrageous as the culture got more modern. About Lyndon Johnson, she called him a rogue elephant in old sly boots.

When he, I don't know, you probably don't remember this because you're not old enough, but he had gallbladder surgery. And he outraged the whole country when he lifted up his shirt to show his scar. And Alice said, well, thank God it wasn't his prostate. Oh! And that made all the newspapers. She called FDR two-thirds mush and one-third Eleanor. Wow. Yeah. Wow.

Yeah. She said Truman was incapable of overcoming his Cincinnati quality, which after wearing it as a persona for so long, it just became him. And about Eisenhower, she said, you could

watch him trying to find the right words and arrange them in his head like Scrabble. Wow. She was hard on everybody. But her favorite politician was Bobby Kennedy. Oh, really? Yeah. Every time they were at a party, he would make a beeline to go sit beside her and they would trade insults back and forth and she could always keep up she teased him about what her father TR said about Irish politicians that they were low venal corrupt unintelligent brutes and he laughed he loved. So she grieved over losing Bobby Kennedy all of her life.

She said he would have been an excellent president. Oh, wow. That's amazing. I'm a big fan of Bobby Kennedy. I think he's my number one hero. We've had his, I think, his nephew on the show for his book, the gentleman who runs the Special special olympics um yeah yeah his name escapes me at this point but uh great show uh but yeah i'm a big fan of this but i didn't know that

it's really cool i'm pulling this up here on the on the internet webs and uh yeah uh and that's that's really neat she lived a very interesting life Holy crap and very long And one of the things that drew me to her Was that she changed And I love stories about change Because you know I grew up In Faulkner land and he always Said writers should not

Write about the nuclear age Or any of that Our best stories are when the human heart is in conflict with itself. And Alice was, because she lived a haunted childhood with no one really telling her much about her mother. And she longed to have a lodestar, which is what a mother does, help a young woman become a woman. And lead her through

that to become who she's meant to be. So that was, to me, what happened was, should I give it away? I don't want to give away too much. You just want to tease stuff out on the show to get people to vote.

It's up to you. It's your show. You can give away what you want or you can tease it out however you want to. Yeah, I'll tell you the things I won't tell you about. Yeah, but I do want people to understand that Alice, when they unveiled a statue of her father in Washington, they ask her, what do you think about it?

And she said, well, I think it pretty well, but it's pretty well done. But you have to realize I specialize in meanness. And that's what she was known for. But at the age of 73, she changed completely. Oh, really? Yeah. I want to tell you all about that because to me, that's hope for Oh, really? Yeah. I want to tell you all about that because to me, that's

hope for any of us. That we can change directions. We can be somebody else. That's what my psychiatrist keeps telling me as well. I think it's important to know. Is he getting through, Chris? No, he's not.

I ask him how long he's been feeling that way. Well, anyway, Alice married the Speaker of the House. You know, there's a Longworth building in Washington. Yeah, named after him. He was very powerful. He was a philanderer and a bad alcoholic. So when he played around on her, she played around on him. Nobody got anything past Alice. So she had a baby with

Senator Bill Borah. B-O-R-A-H. Wow. You don't say it's exactly out of wedlock, but it was not by her husband. And she would tease her husband by saying she was going to name the baby debora and spell it with our lover's last name wow wow yeah so that's some political intrigue you know we just went through you know some intrigue with the house representatives here with the removal of uh for first time in history the history of what's-his-face. But that must have caused some kerfuffling in the House of Representatives and the Congress.

Well, they kept it quiet. No one really talked about that. And, you know, but in all of my secondary sources, it's recognized as documented evidence. But I'll tell you something funny and a little raunchy that her husband said, Nick Longworth. He didn't have any hair. He was bald even as a young man and very sexy and very charismatic. And she thought he would be president one day and take her back to the White House. But he was such a philanderer. And somebody ran their hand over his head and said,

this feels just like my wife's behind. And Nick came back and said, I know. Oh, wow. Wow. This is not only a fun book, it's a little bit raunchy, wouldn't you say? There you go. Well, she's a sharp one, that's for sure. Yeah.

She's a pistol whipper. I don't know what the right term is for something you'd say about somebody in that era. There's probably some sort of term for it. But so what drew you to her? What really inspired you to want to write about her? Well, when I read that she was one of the historical figures who'd been affected by kidney disease because her mother died of Reitz disease when she was only two. And, of course, when you know about all of her antics, and I'm old enough to have heard a lot of these stories. And, you know, she had a famous saying that if you can't say anything nice about anyone, come sit beside me.

That was one of the first things I read about her. I would have liked hanging out with her. I would have liked hanging out with her. She sounds like a real pistol whipper. Definitely. In the South, we call women like that a mess. A mess. Such a mess. Yes. And then we would add bless her heart. Oh, yeah.

Bless her heart. But anyway, she had this child and the child grew up and died of a drug overdose. Oh, no. Yeah. Oh, no. Yeah, when she was in her late 20s. And Alice took her child's daughter as a grandmother and raised her with the love that she had never had herself. Oh, wow. So it was a huge transformative change. And to me, that's just stellar. It's wonderful and as i was writing this book when i uh published borrowing life about the kidney transplant i was surprisingly invited to join a group called biographers international

and after i wrote um alice i really needed to get in touch with some biographers who could endorse it because the book doesn't do well today unless it's got a really good endorsement on the book jacket. So one of the people in this group was Jonathan Alter, who's the biographer of Jimmy Carter, and very well known in our culture as a journalist watching politics. He's written a lot of books about Obama and FDR, and he's just an exalted human being. So timidly, I sent him an email and told him about Alice.

And he said, well, I've always been fascinated by her. And if you send me the galleys, I'll see if it's appropriate for me to endorse the book. So I did, and I was gratified that he loves the book. And then he told me, this was so interesting, that there was recently a play in New York about Eleanor Roosevelt and Alice Roosevelt. And he went to see it. Because I had tried to get in touch with Alice's granddaughter to interview her because Alice had been such a big force in her life and she would never answer the phone. So Jonathan Alter told me that he met with a playwright

in New York and they said, well, she wouldn't answer us either. And the reason was supposedly, or that they dug around enough to know was that Alice's granddaughter loved her. And she doesn't like to see Alice be just a summation of her antics. She wants her to be appreciated for the extraordinary woman she was. And I'll tell you one of the, I don't know how much more time we have. I could go on forever. We have plenty. We have plenty.

Okay. Well, let me tell you like her legacy. People are always asking me what was Alice's legacy. Well, this is to me just startling because it is going to tell you a lot about what's going to happen in our country. Alice could not vote until she was 36. Let that sink in. So after the 19th Amendment was passed, she and 126 million women voted in the 1920 presidential election. Wow.

Isn't that amazing? Do we still have that many women that vote in our current elections? Oh, yeah. 126 million. Half this country doesn't vote. And then half of it will be women. Well, they're going to take over. They're going to take over.

We're going to take over. All right. I'll warn you. We're going to run the world here pretty soon. Are they going to do all the construction jobs and stuff? Sure. Sure. Okay.

In fact, there's, there's, I think 99% of construction is men and I'm just waiting for women to take over that half. So go quality. I keep seeing men as garbage truck delivery guys. So still waiting for that. We're raising the perimeter. Yeah. Can we go back? I keep seeing men as garbage truck delivery guys Rosie the Riveter we can handle

I'm all for it, let's go with quality 50-50 on everything and the other thing that is part of Alice's legacy is she proves how much fathers mean to daughters. And we talk a lot in this society about fathers and sons, but I'm inviting everyone to read this book and open a discussion of how fathers can give their daughters self-worth.

So they're not pushed around. They're not taken advantage of. We think that mothers give their daughters their self-worth, but that's not really true. I've raised both a son and a daughter and the father is everything. When a daughter thinks she's beautiful or is told that she's beautiful, it has to come from her father. It has to come from a man telling that to her. A mother can tell a daughter that over and over, but it doesn't mean anything compared to the way the father makes the daughter feel. So I think that would be an important conversation for us to have as a culture.

I think it really is. I totally agree with you. I'm a guy who's been single all my life and dated all my life. I've seen the difference of when a young lady has a father and when they don't and the difference on how that works. If they don't get enough attention and the imprint of a good masculine man as children and as they're raised, they will go looking at it from every man.

And it makes all the difference. I mean, it makes the differences to whether or not you're working in certain trades or businesses that are illicit, you know, is seeking attention from every man. So I totally agree with you. I've seen the thing. In fact, usually when I date, I ask people, did you have a father? What was he like in your life as you grew up? And the difference in quality of the type of person that will be that is everything.

The relationship between parents is everything. We talk about that on the show. We've had a lot of people on the show. And the mother is important as well, too, seeing both the interaction of the interplay between the two. But yeah, fathers and daughters and sons and mothers are really important relationships i've seen sons that have mother abandonment issues uh and it it just destroy their whole life and make bad choices and relationships too goes both ways oh i love hearing you say that i've not heard a man talk about how they realize the effect of a father on someone

they date i don't think most people men know it because most people, you know, they don't date as long as I do or sample size as long as I do, but I got a huge sample size. And, you know, most guys, 20, they just get married and settled down. So they don't really see what's out there. But, you know, now I see the end game of it and it's not pretty. And so I always encourage all my friends that are fathers. I'm like, hug your daughters, spend time with them, give them an imprint of what a good man, masculine man, a good father is.

Because if you don't, they will go seeking it. And I know a lot of mothers that were raised without fathers in the home. They go seeking the attention of just about any man to fill that void and they will try and fill that void and unfortunately they'll pick uh they'll make very bad choices because they didn't have a man there to help guide them to make good choices that is so important i love it yeah we've had authors on that have talked about this it's it's all simple psychology really when. Yeah, yeah. We were supposed to be raised with a man and a father or a masculine and a feminine in a home.

You can be LGBTQ and pull it off, but the masculine has to be there and the feminine has to be there. And that's usually interplayed in two roles. There's always a dominant and a submissive in any relationship. Right. So I say in my book that the father-daughter relationship can be seen as a cautionary tale because I bring up as a narrative historian, I can plant questions in my reader's mind. like if TR had been able to say to her, you're beautiful like your mother was,

and I love you as much as I ever loved your mother. But he was unable to do it because of the barrier of grief. So it's a wonderful book for people to discuss these relationships. And then there's a whole other part of this that's extraordinary because not many people know about Theodore Roosevelt's older sister. He's about three years older. David McCullough thought that Bambi, she was the first Eleanor. All the Roosevelt women were named Eleanor and she was the first Anna Eleanor.

But they called her Bami which is a short form of Bambino and she was born with a hump on her back and David McCullough has written about it thought she had Pott's disease some people thought she was in a polio epidemic and had scoliosis I had to come to my own decision and I decided it was a congenital malformation. Theodore Roosevelt Sr., the father, is the most extraordinary man in the world. His family called him Great Heart because he inherited his part of the Roosevelt fortune

which they made through plate glass at the building of New York City. And he was so extremely wealthy. And for a while, great hard work for his father, but found it boring and discovered that what he cared about in life was children. So he became a philanthropist. He opened an orphanage. He opened the Orthopedic Hospital in New York, the Art Gallery in New York, the Natural History Museum. He died at the age of 46. Oh, wow.

He was just beginning to go into politics as the custom manager and the political machine pushed him out. And he made a comment to T.R. Roosevelt that he said, I worry about your children and your generation because there is so much corruption in our government. I don't know how we will make it through with a democracy because all the politicians were saloon keepers and street thugs. They took over the government more or less. TR was in such grief of losing his father, whom he said was the closest person in the world to him, that he went into politics for that reason after his father died wow it doesn't sound like things have changed really in congress i know i know tr is the one that when he was elected into the new york assembly at only age of 28 and they called him a dandy because he wore a tuxedo oh day to work. That's not nice.

No. But anyway, he came up with the saying, the wealthy criminal class. Oh, wow. And he called politics the bear pit, and he loved it. So there's that interesting part. And Theodore Roosevelt Sr. so loved Bami, his first child, who had this problem with her back. They didn't think she would ever walk. And he brought a physician, an orthopedist, to the house who made her a brace. And he would carry her every day as a young toddler to lie face down on the couch all day long in that brace.

And then he would rush in with toys or whatever. He gave her the feeling that she was the most wonderful human being in the world. And by the time Mammy was 14, she'd read all the books in his library. And every day when he would go out to make his rounds of things he was doing philanthropically, she entertained his friends, one of whom was John Hay, which is the former secretary to Lincoln. Oh, wow. The layers of history that just

deepen and deepen throughout this book. And I read somewhere, but it was not documented, that at some point, Theodore Sr. went to Washington because he arranged for the Civil War soldiers pay to go to their families. Wow. And he went from

campsite to campsite, signing up soldiers. Sorry, that was not good. But I read somewhere that it was not documented, but they think that Bami sat on Lincoln's lap one day when they were visiting there. So there's another example of a father giving extraordinary well-being to a child when he decided that Bami was so brilliant. In fact, this says everything about Bami. When Lillian Rixey was a biographer and she went to Alice Roosevelt, when Alice was an older woman and said, I want to write your biography. And Alice said, well, why don't you do Auntie Bi?

Because if she had been born a man, she would have been president. Ah, she engineered TR's whole political career. And the way she knew how to do it was her father sent her to school outside of Paris run by Madame Souvestre, Marie Souvestre. And she had a school for girls. You know, at that time, they believed that educating girls would affect their fertility. And so they didn't do it. There was very little education for girls. Did you know that? I did not.

I didn't know that. Madame Sauvisterre was a child of the Enlightenment. Her father was part of the Enlightenment movement in France. And she started this school in which all the leaders of European countries sent their daughters to be educated. And the agenda was that they would be presented with an idea, a philosophical or political idea, during the morning, and then they were each to come up with an original thought about that, analyzing it,

and come have tea with Madame Sauveterre in the afternoon and talk about that idea in either German or French. And Madame Sauveterre educated these girls saying, you will influence men to create more justice in the world. And that's what you must do. There you go. Well, that's probably why Sue is such a whippersnapper of snarka meanness,

if you will, but maybe get people into shape. Get them going to do stuff. This should be an amazing read, Shelly. As we go out, give us your final thoughts on the book and tease out and pitch to people to pick it up.

Yeah. Well, I think everyone should enjoy Alice, read it with these layers in mind that I've mentioned here and discussed because I absolutely had a ball researching it and I was sorry that the book ended. There's so much history in it that we need to appreciate. And one of the main ones is that my editor kept saying, well, he ended up cutting like 100 pages out because we needed

to make it all about Alice. But I went down all these roads learning about TR because he practiced politics as an art. You know, he had guile like Lincoln did. He got done what needed to be done by sometimes funny means. But I saw it as like his administration was like an iceberg with most of his artful moves under the surface. So when you read this book, you will learn what it is to have someone of extraordinary character lead this country. And he's considered the fifth greatest president. He's the one that is considered great who did not handle a war. The only one did not handle a war. So and there's another whole tale I can tell about how he was awarded the Nobel Prize for Peace,

the first president to receive that award. And he did it by using Alice as an ambassador. So all of that is in the book. That's fun for people to discover. What an amazing life and overlap into so many different politics and people that shaped this, shaped our nation in history.

There you go. So this has been fun, Shelley, to have you on the show. What great stories and people need to order up the books so they can delve into them and read all the stuff. Why did you pick, my final question for you, why did you pick the name White House Wild Child? Because it sounds like she was pretty wild, I guess.

Yeah. And also, Teddy was the first one to name the president's executive mansion the White House. He renovated it. Oh, really? Wow. Yeah, when he moved in. He's the one who started calling it the White House. There you go.

There you go. And I thought, you know, my agent actually voted for that title. He thought it would, you know, agents try to help you sell the book and it's catchy. There you go. It's intriguing. It's fun. But it's many more layers of that. There you go. So it's been fun to have you on the show, Shelly. Tell us where you want people to look you up on the interwebs or buy the book. Uh, tell us where you want people to look you up on the interwebs or, uh, buy the book.

Yeah. Well, the book is available to be purchased anywhere that books are sold. It's under the random house, uh, penguin, uh, website.

It's on Amazon. It's in any bookstore can order it. Uh, and I don't have a website. I took it down and, um, because I don't know, you go on Google my name, and you'll see how much trouble I've been in without being locked up.

I'll have to do that then. I'm proud of not having been locked up, or put it this way, caught. Oh, well, there's still time. There's still time. Sounds like you might have a little Alice Roosevelt in you as well. I do. So thank you very much, Shelley, for coming to the show.

It's been wonderful. My pleasure. Please come back for your next book. My honor. Thank you, dear. Thank you. And our honor as well. Folks, order up the book wherever fine books are sold,

White House Wild Child, How Alice Roosevelt Broke All the Rules and Won the Heart of America. It just came out October 3rd, 2023. Thanks, your audience, How Alice Roosevelt Broke All the Rules and Won the Heart of America. It just came out October 3rd, 2023. Thanks to our audience for tuning in. We certainly appreciate you guys. As always, refer to the show to your family, friends, and relatives. Go to goodreads.com, Fortress Chris Voss, LinkedIn.com, Fortress Chris Voss,

YouTube.com, Fortress Chris Voss, and Chris Voss Warren on the tickety-tockety or whatever those kids are playing with these days. Thanks for tuning in. Be good to each other. Stay safe. We'll see you guys next time. And that should have us out, Shelly. Great show. Fun stuff. Thank you, dear. It's an honor to be on your show.

It's an honor to have you as well.