The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Who’s a Good Dog?: And How to Be a Better Human by Jessica Pierce

Episode Date: September 28, 2023

Who's a Good Dog?: And How to Be a Better Human by Jessica Pierce Jessicapierce.net A guide to cultivating a shared life of joy and respect with our dogs. Who’s a Good Dog? is an invitation to nurture more thoughtful and balanced relationships with our canine companions. By deepening our curiosity about what our dogs are experiencing, and by working together with them in a spirit of collaboration, we can become more effective and compassionate caregivers. With sympathy for the challenges met by both dogs and their humans, bioethicist Jessica Pierce explores common practices of caring for dogs, including how we provide exercise, what we feed, how and why we socialize and train, and how we employ tools such as collars and leashes. She helps us both to identify potential sources of fear and anxiety in our dogs’ lives and to expand practices that provide physical and emotional nourishment. Who’s a Good Dog? also encourages us to think more critically about what we expect of our dogs and how these expectations can set everyone up for success or failure. Pierce offers resources to help us cultivate attentiveness and kindness, inspiring us to practice the art of noticing, of astonishment, of looking with fresh eyes at these beings we think we know so well. And more than this, she makes her findings relatable by examining facets of her relationship with Bella, the dog in her life. As Bella shows throughout, all dogs are good dogs, and we, as humans and dog guardians, could be doing a little bit better to get along with them and give them what they need.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. It's Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com, thechrisvossshow.com. Welcome to the Chris Foss Show. My voice is not holding up. We're on our third show of the day, and my voice is not holding up,

which means all the more reason you people need to listen to the two or three shows we do a weekday, 10 to 15 a week, and the Chris Foss Show has been coming to you for 15 years with all the brightest minds, the CEOs, the billionaires, the authors, the Pulitzer Prize winners, the people of the Vice Congress and presidents. We've had some of those brilliant minds on the show and then there's you know there's just me so uh i don't know so i got on the show because i'm on the mic and that's how i got on and i got five dollars per show so um and they named it after me too and so i felt obligated anyway guys uh we certainly appreciate you guys tuning in as always we have the most amazing guests and i'm

excited to talk about our guests today. We're going to talk about my favorite subject, or at least I'm told that if I don't agree it's my favorite subject, they will probably eat one of my shoes. Who's a good dog? And How to Be a Better Human is the new book that just came out September 6, 2023. Jessica Pierce joins us on the show, and we'll be talking about her. She's written quite a few books about dogs And humans and we're going to find out

What it means and we're all going to learn How to be better humans because that's really What the Chris Voss show is about Because we all need that especially those Of you who have been watching me for listening to me For 15 years know I Could use some work so there you go Jessica Pierce is an internationally acclaimed

Bioethicist her work spans from broad considerations of human responsibilities for nature to detailed explorations of human-animal relationships. She has published 11 books, including The Last Walk and Run, Spot, Run, both also published by the university of chicago press her essays have appeared in the new york times the washington post guardian and scientific american she's a faculty affiliate at the center for bioethics and humanities at the university of colorado and shills is it and shills and shoots and Medical campus. I flunked second grade, as everyone knows. And she didn't. She lives in the Colorado Rockies. Welcome to the show, Jessica.

How are you? Thank you, Chris, for having me. I'm doing well. There you are. And it's wonderful to have you as well. Give us a.com. Where can people find you on the interwebs to get to know you better? JessicaPierce.net.

There you go. There you go. There you go. And so you've written 11 books. This is your newest book out. What motivated you on a rate? Who's a good dog and how to be a better human? So, yeah, you would think that one would run out of things to say about dogs and dog ethics. But the more I think about it, the more I have to say,

which maybe that's a scary thing. Who's a good dog was motivated really by my current dog, Bella, who I've lived with for about 11 years, who is not a good dog by cultural standards that are well accepted today. And, you know, for many years I thought, you know, what's wrong with Bella and what's wrong with me for having a bad dog? And finally, you know, just the more I thought about it, the more it came to me that Bella is not the problem. The problem is our unrealistic expectations about dogs and how they should behave and who they are. And that Bella is actually a good dog, that all dogs are good dogs. There are no bad dogs. And so I really wanted to focus in on my relationship to her and how she has invited me to be a better human being.

There you go. My dogs have helped make me be a better human, helped me be more empathetic, helping me connect to be presence. I mean, there's a lot of things I've gone on with my dogs. They've always been by my side and so loyal in their journey and unconditional love. But I'm still trying to get them jobs.

Is that what you mean? You can't get Billy to get a job? Because that's what I'm trying to get mine to get a job. They keep laying around the house not paying rent. No, yeah. Well, she actually has a job that she takes very seriously, and that is herding the family. Oh. She's got her hurting genes in her.

And so she spends her day. I describe her in the book as a wee dog, W-E, wee dog. And her job is to keep everyone who's in the household, you know, in as much the same place as she can. Or, you know, she'll either she'll get us into one room or make sure that she knows where everybody is and that everybody is accounted for. And protect us, importantly, from the magpies. Oh, the magpies are evil. We have those in our backyard. Very dangerous.

Yeah, mine do the same thing. So she's kind of a herding dog where she herds you guys kind of like the sheep and keeps you. I have this image of you guys being herded around like those Australian sheepdogs do. It's really, that's how it is. She's got us under her thumb. Wow. Well, we know who owns the roost, which is probably the same over here. So give us a 30,000 overview of the book and what's inside, please.

So it's about how to think with more curiosity about your relationship with your dog and how to, I mean, I think most of us who live with dogs love our dogs tremendously and worry about what it means to do the right thing for our dog. So my book is not full of answers to the question, what's the right thing to do, but it's full of ideas for how to think about and figure out for yourself what you think might be the best way to give your dog a happy life. And, you know, I have been concerned about pet dogs because I think they're under a lot of stress right now. I think anxiety levels are high, frustration levels are high, and human expectations of dogs are really off the charts, unrealistic. collaborate with our dog and maybe meet them halfway and try to change ourselves and our home environment to meet the dog's needs rather than expecting the dog to always be adapting

to meet our needs. So it's really about how to do the best we can for the dogs that we love. And it's not an easy job it's there's a lot to it i totally agree and sometimes there's times where you have dogs that have issues you know shelter dogs you might pick up the way they maybe had some abuse and been treated poorly and uh you know maybe they've been on the streets and they've picked up some bad habits, but you know, the dogs are, I, in my experience, pretty pliable if you're a good human being to them and you do have to put in the work to train them. They're not like, they just don't come out, you know, to be a certain way. And so it's kind of up to you.

I find that, tell me if this is true, because I've seen a few people that are very bad people that have dogs that end up behaving badly. It's almost like some dogs are a reflection of what kind of human beings we are, their behavior and characters. Yeah. And I think, especially maybe when it comes to crazy, our crazy gets reflected onto and into and through our dogs, which is understandable. I mean, they're so emotionally synchronized with us and so empathetic that I think they're often really like sponges for our emotional chaos and psychological problems. be more more mindful of who we are and in being more mindful about who we are and how we are in the world we can um put less of that baggage onto our dogs there you go what what's what's that

saying that people have seen a joke around on facebook it's a meme uh my job in life is to work as hard as i can to be the sort of person my dog thinks I am or thinks I should be. Yeah. And I think there's actually, I mean, it's a meme and a cliche, but I think there's a lot to it. And, you know, if our human loved ones can't motivate us to be a better person, maybe our dogs can because we really perhaps love them. I wouldn't say we love them unconditionally, but maybe with slightly fewer conditions than the humans in our lives. Definitely. I mean, really, I think the only unconditional love one gets in this world, especially as a man, is from a dog.

You know, women, kids, and frogs and pets get unconditional love uh men do not uh so that's why they call it a dog is a band's best friend and so you know my dogs they know they they're incredibly intuitive and feeling stuff like if i'm in pain and i'm suffering they'll they'll come in and you know start licking me and trying to give me attention you know to get petted, just trying to take my mind off it, bring me toys they want to throw the ball or whatever, Dad. Sometimes if I'm laying down and I'm hurting or if I'm stressed out about something, it's interesting. I can go lay down right now and I'll just be like, maybe take a nap or something. And I'll just kind of like, yeah, whatever, Dad's doing his thing. But if I'm stressing about something and they don't really know what I'm stressing about, you know,

I know somebody wrote some ugly thing to me on an email and I'm like, whatever. And so I'll go lay down and stress and they will come in and, you know, start licking with me and cuddling on me and, and just being my presence and just being a support thing. But then, you know, if I'm not really stressing about anything, they, they just might,

they're just like, they're Huskies. So they're kind of like, you know, we don't care what you do half the time. We got things to do. But it's interesting how they, how intuitive they are and how they pick that up.

They really are. I, I have the same feeling with Bella and, and part of the message in my book is that we can, I think we, we are often less intuitive about how our dogs are feeling and less in tune with their emotional needs than we could be. And we can do them the favor of returning the sensitivity. And as an example, I think sometimes our home environments are kind of stress-inducing for dogs. There are a lot of noises that can make dogs feel afraid or unsettled. Even the beeping of a microwave or God forbid in my house,

we have an extremely sensitive fire alarm. So anytime I'm cooking, not even just, I mean, occasionally I burn stuff, I must admit, but if I just let the oil smoke or something, the fire alarm goes off and it's, it's awful. Poor Bella takes her several hours to recover. Um, so I try really hard not to, not to do that just for her sake. Um, the smells that we bring into our home, you know, and always giving our dogs baths so that they smell like tea tree oil or lavender or whatever it is that we think they should smell like other than dog. And so I think returning the favor that your dogs and my dog show us, just emotional sensitivity. There you go. And it's really important too. I have to learn to listen to my dogs too and what they're stressed about. And maybe Bella is concerned.

I can't speak for Bella cause I don't speak dog, but maybe what she's concerned about, she knows that it's danger. She knows that there's a potential for danger and, and it's interesting how they, how they, uh, intuitive that way.

But you know, um, my, my dogs are great at calling out my hypocrisy. Whenever I'm in the bathroom, they, they tend to come in. I can be anywhere in my home and they usually won'tisy. Whenever I'm in the bathroom, they, they tend to come in. I can be anywhere in my home and they usually won't bother me unless I'm in my kitchen.

Cause that's treat, that's treat. Yeah. That's, that's a very important location. Yeah. And, uh, it's sucker time. We can kill him into giving us treats. He's their treats are right there on the counter. Dad, just hand them over.

Um, you know, they'll follow me in the bathroom and give me that hypocrisy look like, are you trained us to do this outside, but you get in the house and you're full of it. You're a hypocrite. We just want you to know that we're onto you and your business. And, uh, yeah,

but, uh, no, being in touch with them, you know, yesterday, my little one, uh,

was coming in and, and she was just being really needy. And I finally had to recognize that she was being needy and I didn't know what was going on with her. And I still don't know what was going on with her. So I had to get up and I tried playing with her. She wanted to play and she just wanted to be petted and cuddle a little bit. I still don't know what was going on with her. Um, maybe she, she wasn't feeling well, but you know, I had to give her the comfort she usually gives me when I'm in pain or when I, while I'm feeling bad, you know, she comes and, Hey dad,

you're feeling bad. Here's a, here's a, here's a funny face and a cute smile and a look to cheer you up. And, and here's some kisses on your face to make you feel better and and uh there you go and then you it kind of helps you become grounded again too my i think my dogs help me become grounded and stay present where um they kind of remind me of gratitude a little bit to be grounded where i go hey you know what um this hill of beans that email doesn't matter that pissed me off what this wonderful being here that loves me unconditionally and puts up with all my stupidity and stuff and still thinks i'm the greatest dad ever uh you know this is the thing i that matters the most i don't know. That's my, I agree. I, I, yeah. Everything you

say, I, I'm right there with you. So, uh, you know, and I think your book's important because being a better human is, is what my dogs have taught me. There was a time where I was going through a huge ADHD. i was suffering from a year and a half of doing hospice care for my one dog and and still in recovery um and i was having problems with being present and i was completely out of tune my head was screaming at me and i i could literally be petting my dogs and and half talking them and i I just would, I was not there. I was just in a world of, of overwhelm of ADHD thoughts and, uh, grief and sorrow of,

of, uh, all that stuff that goes on to the stages of grief. And I realized that I just wasn't present in my own life anymore. Um, there were times with my dogs where, uh, I realized that I'd gotten a little bit too narcissistic and i needed more

empathy and i needed to be more human and just their warmth and loving and being human made me realize um how valuable they were uh loss is important as well you know these guys are these guys are only with us if you're lucky lucky, 10 to 15 years, 16. It's a really small window. It is. And as humans, we have to realize that sometimes the time we need to spend with them is, I don't want to say more precious, but it kind of is because anything can happen to someone we love. They could be taken away in an accident or, uh, you know, some sort of severe thing that's unfortunate, but dogs pretty much are on a solid timeline.

They're pretty much on a 10 to 15 year timeline. So their time is really short that they spend with us. Yeah. And they, you know, they, whether willingly or not, they give us their entire life. And you can't say that about a spouse you're only with as an adult and maybe not even for your entire adult life. Your child grows up and goes off, hopefully, and becomes an independent person. Get them out of that basement.

Yeah. The rent's going up tomorrow um and and i think that's that's one thing that to me um triggers a real sense of gratitude um for bella is for Bella is she's given me her entire life and I'm it. And the quality of her life is in my hands. And that's a huge responsibility. It's kind of stressful actually. Um, and that's, that's one of the things I, the themes that I try to explore in the book is just the, you know, this feeling that there's always more you could be doing. And there are things like, like leaving a dog home alone, which are just kind of painful. And I think make almost everybody I know who has a dog feels uncomfortable leaving them at home. They feel bad, you know, when they're gone, they're thinking about their dog

who's left at home alone while they're out, you know, at a party or whatever it is. And so there's a lot of guilt and uncertainty that gets woven into the human dog relationship. And I think it's, it's helpful to just take those emotions head on. Yeah. You know. It is. You know, we have to realize that we have all of our friends, you know. We've got people we can talk to online. We've got people we can go hang out with.

We've got family that we can leave the house with. You know, a lot of the world isn't dog friendly. And, I mean, you can take your dogs with you, but there's stores you can't go into. I always would love to. I've always joked about having a dog gym where there's like a doggy daycare and a gym. Like they have us for babies. You can put your baby in the dog. That's a really good idea.

Daycare for a gym. That has to exist somewhere. I think maybe it possibly could be some people have dog allergies and they never be able to join the gym. That's true. That's not my problem. That's their problem. Um, uh, and, uh, you know, I, I, I, uh, I'd love to take my dog.

I'd take my dogs everywhere if I could. And, you know, sometimes there's a danger. I worry about them running away. Uh, you know, you don't want to leave them in a car, of course, and different things. You want to make sure they're having a good time. And sometimes my older dogs got to the point where they didn't really want to go in a car anymore. They were at a point of age where they're just like, I just want to take a good nap. They're kind of like me now.

I just want to take a good nap and screw the world. I got to sleep. Yeah. Bella's at that point now. She just doesn't have much interest in going anywhere, which is really sad. Um, but also that's her choice. So, yeah, as long as you're there for her, but you know, being important, like, you know, we have to play the Chris Walsh show podcast when I leave the house, uh, so that they don't

get too upset. My little baby one, she, she's, she's daddy's girl. So she's not happy my older one is like yeah whatever with that dude screw him i mean again siberian get out of here and give me some peace yeah siberian huskies you know they're just like they're just like we know whatever you you you're just uh you know you give them commands and they're just like yeah we'll take that under advisement yeah sure that's That's cute. You got some ideas there, buddy. Have fun with that.

We'll get back to you on that. Yeah. We'll see if it aligns with our agenda. Yeah. That sounds like Bella too. Yeah. But yeah, I think you and helping people educate on and educate them on being in tune to their dog, what's important to them. The emotions of the dogs are important as well. You know, I, I, I babysat my dog through

a year and a half of hospice care with cancer. And so, you know, dealing with her emotions, being attuned to what she was going through every day, and then trying to have fun. Or sometimes she'd want to play, and other times she'd want to sleep. But yeah, these little beings are only with us for a short time. And so I like what you've talked about here. What is bioethicists? Yeah. What does it mean?

So bioethics is a field that it's not somebody who studies dogs and ethics. That's not an obvious job description for a bioethicist. It's kind ethics and it's a field that explores questions of values and ethics and philosophical issues that arise at the intersection of ethics and the biomedical sciences. So for example, you know, one of the classic issues in bioethics is how do you fairly distribute scarce medical resources? Or how do you deal with issues at the end of life where there may be a conflict between quality of life and quantity of life. Is it ever okay to hasten somebody's death? Or is euthanasia okay? And obviously, there's an overlap there with how we relate to and interact with animals. And that's actually how I first started writing about animals as a bioethicist was in the context of end-of-life care. And, you know, we have this really rich conversation in human philosophy circles in bioethics about human end-of-life

issues. And there wasn't that same rich conversation about animal end-of-life care but in in my experience with my dog when he was dying the the ethical issues were every bit as complex and painful and complicated as they are in the human realm i'm like so why you know let's talk about animal euthanasia and the ethics of that and hospice care and the ethics of that and and here i am that's is that in this book or no that's in my book the last walk okay the last walk there you go you know that was something i i dealt with and and and if you don't mind i'd like to to talk about it a little bit. Sure. Because I want people to give this more thought. One of the things that I found with, you know, as dog owners, we get that comment that I think you would agree we dislike when people go, it's just a dog. Right?

That's the worst thing anybody could say. It really lacks soul and empathy. Yeah. And seeing a living being is completely disposable. Uh, you know, I, uh, is, is, is pretty incredible or just not having an empathy for something suffering. Um, and one of the challenges I dealt with was with my, with my dog at dog at well early on uh my dog uh got one of these weird um infections and cysts in her neck inside uh and it started it started showing itself in the jawline and it was

a weird anomaly that basically there are sometimes infections that can happen between organs so not in the organ per se. They're in between in just this floating cell structure. And so we had, you know, I took her into three doctors. Two of them were saying, you got to put her down. Yep, she got cancer. You got to put her down. Look, you can spend all this money to get, you know, all the stuff done.

But your dog's 14 years old you know come on dude quit being a jerk to your dog literally that's what they told me this is all verbatim uh put your dog down and i had this weird cheap almost back alley type type doctor in fact they shut him down for about three weeks because he, he wasn't keeping his records right, but he was a great doctor. Brilliant. Um, and he was just bad at the business and the things I guess. But I remember I walked in and he looked at my dog. He said,

walk around. He used to do that. Walk around, show me how she's working. So, and, uh, then he,

they looked at her and he goes, um, yeah, um, I think she's going to be okay. Uh, take her home and, uh, see if we can get through this. And I'm like, I got two doctors telling me to put my dog down.

I got one doctor telling me everything's fine, and he thinks it's going to be fine. And he was really bad at communicating. He was from China or somewhere over in the Asian area. And I was just stuck. And we gave her penicillin and the penicillin wouldn't work. And so like, it has to be cancer. Penicillin is not doing it. It's gotta be cancer. And this thing just kept getting bigger and bigger on her neck right here. And, um, so I just, I had people writing me on Facebook privately, you know, you need to quit being a jerk.

You need to put your dog down, you know, you're extending its life and blah, blah, blah. And my Chinese doctor, he's like, you know, that dog's still running around. The dog's still having fun. Dog's still peeing and pooping. Everything's working in the plumbing. He goes, I think I know what it is, but you just got to ride it out. And he, I don't think he knew what the term was for it. There was actually a term for this infection. Um, and, uh, so I, I resisted the two other doctors that kept telling me to put her down. I kept rotating the three doctors trying to

get the right opinion. And I would tell them what the other one said. And they're like, that dude's crazy, man. And, uh, so we wrote it out and, uh, Christmas day, you know, I kept having so much pressure online to put her down Christmas day or his day before Christmas, the day after Christmas. And it had grown fairly large, almost to about a golf ball size. And I'm like, holy crap, this is, she doesn't seem like she's having any fun. She didn't seem like she was in too much pain. And so I made the decision I was going to take her next morning and put her down and do what the other guys were telling me and i announced it on facebook said i'm going to go put her down tomorrow i don't know what to do everyone's telling me you know whatever

and just everybody was running me around and uh we woke up the next morning and blood was coming out a side of her gums right here and and so we cleaned that all up and I rushed her over to the doctor, the Chinese doctor. And he goes, yep, it's just what I thought it was. He goes, uh,

it's a special infection that runs between the organs and it just needed to get air so that we could fix it. And it wasn't responding to the penicillin. It was just in, it, all it was, was it was like, it wasn't an infection really. It was like a, it was like some sort of cyst growth or something. And once it, once it, there was infection, because once it got air, killed it.

So just like, you know, you can get a wound to scratch to open up. And that's all it was. She lived for another three years after that. Wow. to open up and that's all it was she lived for another three years after that wow well i'm glad you didn't listen to the the advice of facebook friends or or veterinarians or some of the veterinarians yeah you know i i had a similar experience with od not in terms of what was wrong with him but just in terms of getting really, really different opinions from whichever vet I went to, I'd go to one and they'd say, yeah, he's suffering. You should put him down immediately.

It's cruel to keep him alive anymore. And then I'd go, like, I didn't like that answer. That didn't feel right to me. So go to another one who says, oh, it's wrong to put an animal down ever. Don't ever do that. And then like I've got that on my shoulders. Like that didn't seem quite right either. The realm of animal hospice care is a realm of a lot of unsolicited opinions from people in your life who probably are well-meaning. But I think what your story highlights is the person who lives with and knows a dog is in the best position usually to make decisions about how their quality of life is. And that's ultimately what you were doing. You were thinking, you know, her quality of life seems intact. Um, we've got this problem, but it's not still enjoying her life. And, um,

and it's hard when you're getting, having people tell you, and I had people tell me this too, that you're, you're torturing your dog by keeping him alive. Um, that's, you know, just a piece of advice for people.

Don't, don't say that to somebody else. It's not helpful. Plus, they're not seeing what you're going through with the dogs. Although, I will say, on the other hand, I think maybe what was motivating your veterinarians some of the Facebook comments is that sometimes we do drag things out for an animal because it's so hard to let go. And we have trouble processing our own grief and we kind of let that overshadow our decision-making. And that happened to me a little bit with Odie too. I think we probably didn't act quite as soon as we should have to hasten his death.

I don't know. How do you know? It's hard because they can't talk to you. It's hard, yeah. And part of me thinks it's never right to make that choice for an animal. But I'm not sure I believe that either. This is why I like the idea, and that's why I told my story, is the idea that you are doing this bioethicist stuff. Because we need to have some better guidelines i think for for our dogs like

with humans we'd never do that i mean with humans we we make you live even if you don't wanna i know if you're in a coma or you're just like just don't plug me damn it they're like no we're not gonna sorry you know why why don't we have that sort of ethics towards yeah it's it's really interesting i um the the comparison of how we treat animals at the end of life where it seems like the reigning philosophy is you're better off dead where as in with humans it's you know oh my god know, we cannot be part of that action, that, you know, taking somebody's life. We seem very willing to do that with animals, which is strange that we don't have that same resistance. There seems to be a disposability, and I don't know if that's the right scientific word, but your bioethicism, there seems to be a disposability to them because they're not human. Right. is the history of our relationship with stray animals

and the evolution of a practice in sheltering of euthanizing animals. Euthanasia is the wrong word. It's really dispatching, killing. Killing animals who are not part of the population of pets for whatever reason, because they don't behave the way they should or they're not pedigreed or whatever it is. And those are the reasons why dogs are excluded from citizenship change over time but i think we have this really strong connection of euthanasia is an act of or killing is an act of mercy because otherwise these animals would be kept alive in in the pound um or would die on the streets and it's it's a narrative that's got a lot of holding power i think it's problematic in a lot of ways but definitely it's there in our

background so i think we have this connection with you know killing an animal is an act of mercy and we still say that about the the killing of of dogs in shelters, that it's an act of mercy on our part, which is kind of strange when you think about it. There you go. I'll tell you another story that gave me an epiphany into how dogs work and bioethicism. My last dog, this is the same dog that survived earlier the infection. And she got anal sac cancer. And I couldn't figure out. She was having trouble pooping and there was blood.

And I was like, what's going on? She was 15, 16 at that point. So she's pretty old for a husky. Pretty long run. And so we took her into the doc. And doc, you know, did his test on her. He came back, he goes, I got bad news. She's got anal sac cancer. I've checked her out.

She's probably filled with cancer on the inside. Uh, it's, I can feel, you know, multiple cysts or whatever they call them in their polyps. And, uh, and, uh, you're probably, oh, that was the other thing. She'd quit eating for like several weeks and she was drinking like a fish because she has the, she had some buildup of cancer that the cancer, the calcium in the blood that the cancer does to destroy the kidney and liver. And, um, so he said, you know, I explained to him, she's, she quit eating and he goes, hey, listen, when dogs stop eating, I explained to him, she's, she quit eating and he goes, Hey, listen,

when dogs stop eating, that means they're dead, they're done. And, uh, the drinking means she's filled with cancer. She's trying to offset the pituitary glands, uh, giving too much calcium in the blood that kills the liver and organ. Cancer doesn't kill a dog. Cancer puts forth the mechanisms to kill itself, which is really kind of a suicide when you think about it. It is. And so he goes, he goes, here's what you need to do. Uh, he goes, take three days,

go, go say goodbye, spend the time, come back and we're going to call the ball. And I said, okay. And it hit me like a locomotive because we went from happy dog to three days. And I said, what's the alternative? He goes, well, listen, the alternative is, for one, I can tell on the inside, even if they were to cut out the front of the antigen-sink cancer that we're seeing growing, it would probably be too big of a hole. And he goes, if you did cancer, you're looking at like 5,,000 cancer treatments for the leukemia or whatever they call it, the radioactive stuff. You're looking at every day she'd have to come in or every couple of days she's going to have to come in. They're going to needle her up.

They're going to pump her full of crap. They're going to, she's going to feel like shit. And you're just torturing your dog, dude. You're just, you're just, she's 14, man. You gave it a good run call the ball whatever and so i she wasn't eating so i was like okay well i guess i don't know i'll go take three days um and um the cost was gonna be extraordinary to put her through the thing but he's like he's like dude just putting her through surgery and the torture what are you doing she's an old dog but i mean

you wouldn't say that about your old mom. You wouldn't say, Hey, mom needs a new hip or a new kneecap. Uh, you know, she's, she's had a good run, you know, and what were the ethics there? And so, uh, I went home and I started reading everything about what she had, how to, and try to understand it and master it. And I found, uh, people online that said they had solved the cancer issues of their dogs by going on a raw, all meat, high fat diet. And I said, fuck it.

She's got a death wish. What do we have to lose? We got three days. Yeah. What do we have to lose? So I tried it. I went and got high fat, those nasty hamburger beef rolls and put her on it we tried tuna fish she loved it she started eating again she ate it like she had like three plates

of it and i was like what is this here so let's keep going so later on i took i took a went back to the vet and the vet goes she's's eating it. That's kind of interesting. Well, why don't you run with it? And he said, I think maybe I misdiagnosed her, but why don't you see how far this goes? And let's just keep monitoring. And they gave me some infection stuff and they gave me, uh, I think some pain medication for her and, uh, some other things. So I started feeding that to her every day and we started feeding her this diet and she started eating like it was going out of style. And she went back to

being a fun dog running around. We still could see the cancer growing on the back of her thing. Now I'll try to skip through a bunch of stuff, but at the end of about a year, I know she was having trouble standing up and she was falling over and she was having all sorts of issues because the cancer was there. I was like, like okay well the cancer is getting into her legs so i we made a decision announcement to have her put down we went into the doctors and the doctor says you want to put her down and i go yeah and they go uh what's she still doing she's still running around peeing pooping chasing treats i'm like yeah but she's falling down now she can't stand up and he goes you mind if we check her i mean i know you want to put her down but you mind if we check her and i go yeah

sure do what you want i don't i don't want to do this and so they took her in the back and he comes back he goes hey then she's got bad arthritis bad arthritis and if she's running around peeing and pooping and everything's functioning and stuff we're pretty sure she's not ready to go uh we think we just need to give her some good medication for arthritis and she'll get walking again and i'm like are you i came here to put her down i filled the paperwork i paid the fee yikes i paid the fee i announced it on facebook and but here's what he said to me that that gave me this epiphany that i set up and blew me away he goes listen man he goes we don't think that your dog's ready to get put down and we don't think she's ready yet but if you're ready if you can't take this if you can't go down this

road then we get it and we'll put her down and i was like holy shit there's some people who give up early on their dogs because it's harder on them than it is for the dog yeah yeah and you know i think there are two there's a spectrum there like i think there are people who choose euthanasia for a dog who still has good living to do because they don't have the patience or the drive or they don't value their dog's life that much, I know, decisions about euthanasia are always made in the context of the limitations of people's resources. And one of those is, you know, just caregiving, the burden of caregiving. And that's physical, emotional, financial. And there, you know, it's this really fine balance between what an animal needs and what we have to give. And, you know, with hospice care for an animal, it's often, we don't have, with humans, we have a wonderful hospice support system. You have nurses coming to offer care and you have social workers and you have spiritual guidance and you have doctors coming in and all of this amazing contribution and help.

And you even have people who come in and give respite care, let you go out and go shopping or just go for a walk or do some self-care. And with animals, you don't have any of that support. Yeah. It's really, it's all on you. And sometimes the caregiving needs of an animal are greater than what a person can offer you're, you know, if you're ready and you can't do this. And I remember thinking, here's a dog that loves me unconditionally. They'll probably never give up on me. And even when I've been a bad dad, ignored them or, you know, gone on trips and not been back and sometimes just sometimes just been not present not there not attentive their needs yeah they still love me and yet in their dark moment you know they've been through

me 10-15 years of dark moments and all my trials and tribulations and and you know i i've had people say to me you know well oh my god dogs are so much work i'm like no i've been a lot of work for 10-15 years most of my dogs they haven't worked for me until in the end when their health starts to fail. And yeah, okay, I got, Abby had lived for I think 16 years by the time she got done. The funny, the interesting thing about that story is she lived for,

she was supposed to only stay alive for three days to be put down. She lived for a year and a half in hospice care with me. That's great. The cancer did get bigger and it's hard to see it grow on the outside of your dog. Most times you see cancer, you see it on the inside.

You know what got her on the end? The arthritis. The arthritis got her on the end. In the end, she let me know. She came to me and she was like i'm tired i'm beat i'm done it's time to call the ball did you actually was there a really clear moment where you knew or was it yeah yeah it was when she was collapsing on the floor and dragging and uh the cyst was bleeding because it had grown large enough. And her face really changed and her nature changed.

And it was like she had suddenly gone 50 years older and was more gray. And she just came to me and got my face and was like, you know, this is it. I'm done. She just couldn't get up anymore. And she was dragging about. And it just wasn't get up anymore, and she was dragging about. And it just wasn't fun anymore. She couldn't run for treats. Until then, the docs for a year and a half were just amazed.

They're like, hey, if she's running, pooping, peeing, you call her for treats. She comes. She's eating. She would eat a whole thing of meat. And most people don't know, cancer sugar and so and it hates fat and so giving your body giving your dogs the fat they wanted um and i've actually saved like a ton of dogs with this diet just a high fat all meat all meat diet and uh high fat and um um, uh, and feeding them, you know, they're carnivores. They were raised on that. They don't eat carrots.

They're not vegetarians. And so, uh, feeding on that, I found a, there was a, there was a bunch of people to save their dogs from cancer this way or delayed it. You're never really going to beat cancer. Cause it's going to come back, um, whether you're human or her dog. But I found a, I, um, whether you're human or, or dog. But I found a, a, um, uh, it was basically a hospice care shelter, a savior dog place that you could just go give your dog to if you didn't want to deal with the cancer part of it.

And they were feeding him this raw diet. And I was like, well, shit, try it. But yeah, it was really interesting to me. Um,

and she came to me, she knew it was time and she was, I mean, she couldn't go up and go potty. She was dragging across the floor. We gave it about three days to see if she'd come back because we were going through kind of ups and downs at that point where she dragged,

but then the next day she'd be fine. And when we went into the vet that last time, they went, yeah, dude, she knows she's done. She wants you to let it go. So it was that. yeah dude she's she knows she's done she wants you to let it go so is that well your story is really i mean it's really inspirational and is a good um a good reminder that hospice is really an end-of-life care for animals is limited only by our imagination and you know what we can there is so much information available online there are wonderful veterinarians who focus their career on hospice care for animals and they, they know about things like special diets and, you know, how, how to deal effectively with pain from arthritis. And so I think, um, being able to

access a veterinarian who has those skills can be immensely helpful. And there's just a lot of good information on the internet. And there's a lot of bad information too, of course, but, um and there's just a lot of good information on the internet and there's a lot of bad information too of course but um there's a lot of good information and a lot of good um i mean you're when you were talking one thing that um was coming to my mind were um these tools that have been developed by veterinarians for assessing a dog's quality of life you know as long as we use them mindfully um but you know how do you know if a dog is still still wants to stay alive um and so they give you various things to to look at like Like, you know, appetite is important, but it's not the only thing. And if your dog is refusing to eat as you found, you know, there are a lot of things you can do short of euthanasia.

You can try a different food because they might just not be liking what they're eating or maybe whatever medical issues they're facing will be, you know, you'll be better off with a certain kind of diet. And there are drugs that you can use, as with humans, to increase appetite and so forth. So there are just a lot of things you can do short of just saying, oh, my dog won't eat, therefore euthanasia is the answer. Yeah.

And I think they intuitively know maybe they don't know but maybe their bodies know that this isn't helping me you know if you're giving that that awful over-the-counter food and blah blah blah you know they're they're kind of like hey this isn't this isn't helping me anyway uh it's been wonderful to have you on again i didn't realize this i remember you sounded familiar i know you're trying to get you on for a while but we actually had you on for a dog's world back in 2021. Yeah, I definitely have been here. We do two, three shows a day.

We did 655 shows last year in 260 days. So I can't feel my legs anymore. That's insane. So my apologies for not remembering you. No, that's okay. But I remember your book and your stuff. And when I saw the bioethicist i was like i wasn't very memorable chris no you were because when i heard the bioethicist i said wait because we chased you

for a while i think we chased you for two books back because i remember we chased you trying to get you on for one book and we couldn't get you and i'm like i love dogs i like that we're on and then i think we got you for a dog's world. And I think you rescheduled once. And we weren't sure if you were coming back. We got you rescheduled. I don't know what it was. Anyway, here I am. There you go.

So we've got two shows in the can from you. Jessica, give us your.com so people can find you on the internet. www.jessicapierce.net. And I have a blog on Psychology Today's site called all dogs go to heaven which you know relevant to the conversation today there you go so those are the and that's easy to find just google psychology today all dogs go to heaven jessica pearson it will take you right there i hope my dogs went to hell because evidently that's where i'm going according to religious people and i want to make sure i see my dogs so yeah but i know wherever you are or maybe you're going where

they are yeah either way but i know there's that catholic thing filled with filled with treats and balls and squirrels and other good dog stuff they better have treats and stuff there because if i show up empty-handed there's they're gonna be some disappointments Like seriously bro You didn't stop by PetSmart on the way here Shame on you I got hit by a car What do you want from me

Anyway Go back Get what Get our stuff And then you can come in Yeah That was that movie Heaven Can Wait from the 70s

Thank you very much Jessica Yeah you're welcome It was nice to be here And folks Order up the book Whoever fine books are sold Jessica Pierce and can wait for the 70s. Thank you very much, Jessica, for being on the show. Yeah, you're welcome. It was nice to be here. And folks, order up the book, whoever fine books are sold. Jessica Pierce, Who's a Good Dog? and How to Be a Better Human,

September 6, 2023. Weirdly enough, somebody from my household got a hold of my credit card and ordered the book already. And I think my dogs are trying to tell me something. So I was wondering why there's paw prints on my keyboard. So there you go. Take care of your pups. They're the most important things that will have your life and they'll be the best things for you. And that's why it hurts so bad when they're gone, but you're blessed and should be grateful that you can have something to love you so much that will make that big of a difference in your life. Be good to each other, stay safe,

and we'll see you guys next time. Thanks everyone. And that should have a sound.