The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Wired on Wall Street: The Rise and Fall of Tipper X, One of the FBI’s Most Prolific Informants by Tom Hardin

Episode Date: March 1, 2026

Wired on Wall Street: The Rise and Fall of Tipper X, One of the FBI’s Most Prolific Informants by Tom Hardin Tipperx.com https://www.amazon.com/Wired-Wall-Street-Prolific-Informants/dp/1394348878 Thrilling tell-all of a prolific informant in the FBI’s largest insider trading investigation of a generation Part financial crime thriller, part personal transformation story, and part redemption memoir, Wired on Wall Street: The Rise and Fall of Tipper X, One of the FBI’s Most Prolific Informants tells the riveting true story of Tom Hardin, a young hedge fund analyst turned FBI informant. Known as “Tipper X,” Tom wore a covert wire over 40 times, helping the FBI build more than 20 of the 80+ cases in Operation Perfect Hedge, the largest insider trading investigation in a generation. As the youngest professional caught in the sting, Tom navigated the psychological toll of betrayal, secrecy, and public disgrace. What followed was a powerful journey through shame, fatherhood, and ultimately, personal transformation. In this gripping memoir, readers will explore: Tom’s shocking first encounter with the FBI, when agents revealed chilling knowledge of his most private personal details Tom’s high stakes game of psychological chess―wearing a wire for years including terrifying close calls Tom’s redemptive journey from public disgrace to resilience, fatherhood, and rebuilding trust with his wife, whose love held strong when most marriages collapse Wired on Wall Street: The Rise and Fall of Tipper X, One of the FBI’s Most Prolific Informants is a thrilling, entertaining read for anyone drawn to financial crime investigations, ethical dilemmas, and the possibility of personal growth even after deliberate choices that carry lasting consequences. About the author Tom Hardin helps organizations identify and close the blind spots that quietly push good people toward bad decisions. As founder of Tipper X Advisors, he partners with Fortune Global 500 companies, boards of directors, financial institutions, law firms, business schools and leadership teams to deliver keynotes, tailored workshops, interactive courses and advisory engagements on behavioral ethics, culture risk and organizational conduct. Beyond his corporate work, Tom volunteers with organizations that support justice-impacted individuals in rebuilding their lives and careers and he is active in his local church. He lives in New Jersey with his wife and two teenage daughters and stays grounded through running, boxing and community involvement.

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Today, our amazing author is Tom Hardin. He's going to be joining us for his book called Wired on Wall Street, the rise and fall of Tipper X, one of the FBI's most prolific informants. And you're going to be surprised to who Tipper X is. We're going to get into with him and find out more about what he does. But Tom Hardin helps organizations identify and close the blind spots that quietly push good people toward bad decisions. As a founder of TIPRAX advisors, he partners with Fortune Global 500 companies, boards of directors,

financial institutions, law firms, business schools, and leadership teams, deliver keynotes, tailor workshops, and interactive courses, and advisory engagements, behavioral ethics, culture risk, and organizational conduct. Welcome to the show, Tom. How are you? I'm doing great, Chris. Thanks for having me. Thanks for coming, or should I call you a tipper? Either one, either one. Either one.

So give us to dot coms, where do you want people to find you on the interwebs? Yeah, no, I'm at tipperX.com, T-I-P-P-E-R-X. Just found out from the U.S. Patent Office, that's trademark. So I'm the only, I believe, I'm the only Tipper X on the interwebs. So you can find me there in my information. Maybe you can take over Twitter because it's now X. So I think they're in violation of your copyright. Yeah, see, so this is for Elon.

Yeah, just he needs a few of those. Anyway, give us a 30,000 over you. What's inside your book? Yeah, so it's really my story is a young guy from Georgia middle class family, going back of the 90s where I grew up and got into an Ivy League school and got working on Wall Street in the early 2000s into the hedge fund world of buying and trading and selling stocks. And I was set up really to succeed. Hedge funds are some of the most lucrative careers you can have. And Chris, I also became aware in the mid-2000s that insider trading was rampantly,

happening, buying or selling stocks on inside information. And I hate to say it, but I totally own it in the book that I ended up crossing that line, receiving four tips on trades that were illicit and inside and not public and placed those trades. And my boss said, this is amazing, but don't tell me how you're doing it so we could talk about leadership there. And then the FBI's in my face seven months after that fourth trade, but I'm happy to back up and fill in the gaps. What do you think triggered it with the FBI? So the FBI knew about, yeah, there was a woman that tipped me on three of the trades that was already a convicted felon. So she had a sealed conviction.

And they looked at her again and knocked on her doors. I researched the book. And they said, you did this again. Who did you tell? And she said, there was this young guy in New York, Thomas Hardin. And they approached me. She had lunch with me one day in New York. And she said, Tom, we made these illegal trades last year, right?

And I said, oh, we did. And so she was wired up and serve me on a flatter. Yeah. Wow. So you decided to, is the thing that you decide to become an informant for Wall Street and wear a wire as well? Yeah, that's right. So I was out seven months after the fourth trade. It wasn't really thinking about it. It's the financial crisis in 2008 July. And living in Manhattan is a great life up to that point and dropped off some dry cleaning at 6.30 in the morning. And Chris, I heard somebody up behind me on the sidewalk say, are you Thomas Covey Harden? And the last time I heard that was my mom back in Georgia and about to whip my butt. It wasn't mom. It was always that middle name that makes you go. Yeah. Middle name. That's not good. in the Manhattan sidewalk and turn around.

To the FBI? Yeah, exactly. So people know, write that one down. And it's, you know, just like the movies, the wallets are out, the dark suits, FBI, come sit down with us. And we sat down at a fast food restaurant. And he was like, hey, man, we know about your Ford trades last year. And I remember Chris thinking, like, I made such small trades compared to everybody else.

You know, I was trying to rationalize it. And it doesn't matter. You know, I made the decision to cheat and they knew it. And they said, we think you could help us build some cases here on Wall Street around the financial crisis. and I was scared, Chris. They said, you know, we were just down. They knew I was just down in Georgia visiting my baby nephew that last week.

And for his baptism, and they knew his name when he's six weeks old. And I thought, oh, my gosh, my parents aren't going to like this. You know, I just sort of, you know, young guy is still in touch with my parents. And I thought my wife's going to leave me. And we just got married and she had no idea about my trades. And they said, you can help us build these cases, Tom. I said, should I talk to a lawyer? And the FBI said, we'll let you know when you can do that.

So that's how they played the game there. And it's crazy. What's that feel like? You know, we talk a lot about things on the show, but a lot of people don't get to experience this. What does it feel like to, I mean, does, do you just have a pit of your stomach just drops when? Exactly right. So it's on the street. And Chris, I knew where they were there subconsciously and they're stopping me and know my name. And I thought, damn, this is those trades. Like it just hit me subconscious. You went right back to that, huh? Yeah, like it had been seven or eight months, but it was definitely lingering there. And then your stomach drops. I think in the book, my editor said I had my, I said my palms were sweaty and my heart was racing. He's like, Tom, you've written this 17 times. I'm like, this is all I remember. I sat down with the FBI.

And it was sort of like the Charlie Brown teacher, the want, what, want, what want, what want. Like you kind of zoned in and out. You don't hear it. And then you come back and it was a male and female agent. And the male was playing the sort of scaring me and the female put her hand on my hand. And I came to. And Chris, you like this. She said, Tom, the FBI is here for you when you're ready to turn your life around.

And I said, you know what? I'm ready. Yeah. And you were lucky that they weren't, you know, they were in a mood to make you an informant instead of just throw you against the wall. Yeah. And I'm lucky they stopped me after four trades to be honest. because I, to be honest, I would have kept doing it.

My boss was looking the other way, and that's sort of willfully blind to my, what I was doing as the young professional. And I look as I wrote the book, I'm like, thank God they stopped me. I didn't think about that at the time, at the Wendy's there, but I thought about that now. Yeah. I mean, I was going to make the joke. I mean, this is why you always, if you're going to commit crimes, do a lot of them. That way you can't remember which one the FBI is there for and you won't look as guilty.

It'll be like, which one? Don't know. That's right. Yeah, I know it's on my four trades, I personally made $46,000. So you think about throwing your career away at 29. So in the book, I'm sure people will be shocked by that. Like, why didn't this guy try to make millions? Well, then, you know, a bad person tries to make millions.

A regular guy, Tom just tries to make a little bit and play along. So that's so much of the psychology. In a lot of cases, a lot of white-collar crime, it's these small amounts in terms of your career. You know, and that's a really important point. You have to look at what do I have to lose? You know, I owned a mortgage company for 20 years. I was never, you know, I mean, yeah, you'd make a, you know, a good set of bank off of one mortgage loan, but was it worth throwing away your career? Was it worth, you know, being investigated for mortgage fraud, having a felony or a misdemeanor even, criminal record, you know.

And I would have loan officers that work for me. And they're like, hey, Chris, you know. And then part of where this conversation would come up, the mortgage company next to us was literally using, the windows to affords the signatures. So they hold it up the window against the signature with the loan application or whatever, and they would be sitting there forging it. And I remember there was one time where I was interviewing a mortgage loan processor to come to work for us. And I hired her. And the first thing she said when she went to the office where the processors were is she goes, where's the light table? I go, what do you mean the light table?

She goes, the light table so, you know, we can sign the customer's paperwork. work. And I go, yeah, we don't do that here. That's we're legit company. We're not going to, I'm not going to jail. And if you want to go to jail, you can go someplace else to do it, because I'm not, I'm not going. Yeah, that's good. You had that healthy. I always tell people have that healthy paranoia. Never, never think it couldn't be you. Like, people might read the book and take, I wouldn't be this guy, Tom. And that's like, actually have a healthy paranoia and the right situation with the right pressure and temptation. Like, we could do anything. So I think, I hope people see that when they read it. Yeah. And they, I mean, they would have excuses. They're like,

Well, what if we, you know, there's a form we need to have signed by the customer. I'm like, you mail it to him. You wait for it to mail them back or we'll send a driver out to the house to have the paperwork sign. We're not forging signatures here, man. And that was a lot of the problem with a lot of the, when, you know, the mortgage crisis hit the wall. But they would see, they would always see the guy in the way next to us.

And he eventually got banned by all the mortgage. He eventually got caught. He lost his business and he was banned. And I don't know if he was criminally held. But most of the mortgage companies went, yeah, this guy is, we know. know what this dude's up to. And I would sit down with my loan officers and I'd be like, look, this deal, you're probably going to make like two grand off this deal maybe, right? Maybe tops, 1500,000, whatever. You're going to make some commission off this deal. Is it worth cheating

just to make $2,000 and you lose the $2,000 times 10 or 20 deals in month you do times the next five years or 10 years or however long? I own a mortgage for me for 20 years until 2008. Yeah. And is it worth it? And, you know, like you said, you probably created a whole lot of maybe attorney expenses and, you know, issues with your life over, what was it, $46,000 bucks or something? $46,000. And it's often a perceived immaterial amount. So that $2,000 is one of the top rationalizations. Sometimes a client will have me come speak to them because they've had an issue with an employee. They can't talk about because of employment law. But it often comes back to two rationalizations. Number one is, well, it seemed like everybody was doing it. That's always a common thing. And number two is that immateriality. What I was doing was small and immaterial.

And what I do is show that number are 2,000 or 46,000 is an iceberg underwater. And that's what you see above the water, but below the water, your reputation, your career, the opportunity cost of me, like losing my career, all those future years of earning. Like, you're not really seeing that in the moment. Yeah. You're just like, uh, you know, look the other way. Everyone does it. Just because everyone does, it doesn't mean you should do it. And it's not really about worrying about getting caught.

It's just doing the right thing. And, you know, part of it is, is if you do the right thing, hopefully everyone else is the right thing, the golden rule. But, you know, those people that, you know, that's why we have a rule of law society or we used to have one, I think, 2026 folks, if you're watching this 10 years from now from the burnout apocalypse. Anyway, I'm just joking. It's going to be five years from now.

So you do this thing. And so TipperX was this your coach? name or something or is this your FBI name? Yeah. So FBI approached me that morning at the windies or the dry cleaner scares the crap out of me and they said, hey, don't talk to a lawyer, but you can only tell your wife, Chris. And I violated that. I went to St. Patrick's Cathedral. I just became Catholic for marriage and wouldn't give a confession. And there was a long line of guys on Tuesday afternoon. I had gallows humor. How many, how many hedge fund guys are in this line and went to the feast and said, hey, you won't believe what happened this morning. And my penance was,

hey, help the FBI. And, you know, I should have talked to a lawyer, but talked to a priest. And I waited until Friday to tell my wife, how the heck am I going to do this? You know, she was working at Lehman Brothers. If you remember those guys. She's working at Lehman Brothers, yeah. Wow. So she's having a hell of a hell of a year.

And now her husband is this, you know, approached by the FBI. I waited until Friday. And Chris, I was having panic attacks and bed sweats. And she knows something's going on. I usually try to keep it, you know, make her laugh. And it wasn't like that that week. And Friday after a young couple in New York City. you know, we're in our 20s about to start a family.

And I said, yeah, I'm going to tell you something. And FBI Tuesday morning. And she was telling me last year when I was interviewing her for the book, she's just like, I remember you owned it immediately saying you did it. And she said, you know, she heard me. And she said, can you say that again? I said, FBI Tuesday morning insider trading. I did it.

And she said, well, you didn't do anything to hurt me. And Chris, I researched for the book, 85% of marriages will end when a spouse brings in, a future felony. And so it was not easy. But when people read this book, they're certainly going to see I'm not the hero. She stayed with me through all this. And another lesson from this is always marry someone who has a felony already. It's right back into it.

Because then it's easier when you, hey, I got another one. Okay, well, we had one already. You know, it's funny that this is, I don't know, funny is the right analogy, but comedian. But it's interesting that this is still happening. You know, I grew up in the age of Ivan Bioski, Michael Milken, greed is good. you know, the guys that Wall Street, the movie is based upon. It's always funny every time I say the greed is good line. They always go, it's a, it's from the movie.

No, that's from my Vioski. And I remember scandals and all the things that went on there. And the greed is good. I mean, it was a crazy thing. He gave that speech, I believe it was at a college. Yes, I forget the name. Yeah, but you're right. You're right. That's what they took it. And it was still a thing.

It still goes on. and people bend the rules and you have to ask yourself worth it. So what happens then? I mean, we don't want to, we want people to buy the book, but what are some of the key points of the experiences you go through? Yeah, so Friday, I tell my wife and she accepts it as well as she can. And Monday, I have lunch with the FBI. And I'm pretty naive and there's a small piece of metal on the table at lunch.

I said, is that an extra blackberry battery? We still had blackberries then. And they must have thought, this guy's a knucklehead. Like, this is a body wire, like a recording device. You're going to have to wear this, Tom. And like, usually you would have to wear a wire. Like, you would have to say, am I going to wear a wire on a buddy that I tipped information to, which one of the guys in these cases had to wear a wire on the best man at his wedding.

And I didn't have to do that because a guy I tipped already wore a wire on me. The woman that I mentioned, I wore to hire on me. So I said, how do I help? And they said, if you bring us the worst actors in the industry, do you think you can do it? And so what I did, Chris, is my cover story for a meeting with the wire was, I would get a meeting with a big hedge fund guy and just say, hey, I'm a young analyst. I'm probably out of work this year. It's 2008. You know, I'm looking for work potentially, which is a good cover story.

And then I'd say, you know, by the way, how do you get your stock tips? How do you get your insider tips? But if you're just meeting me, Chris, and I'm like, how do you commit felonies? Like, you're not going to say anything. You're not going to be like, you know, well, you just came out off the street. Sure, here's the whole operandus. It was sloppy. And the FBI was always sitting next to me at a Starbucks because they wanted to make sure I wasn't

sliding you a note saying, you know, I'm wearing a wire. And then they would listen to the recording later and say, Tom, you're doing such a terrible job, you're so flummoxed. And it said, hey, guys, it's my first time doing this. There was no training at the ethics classes back in college, right? Yeah, there was a college degree for that. Yeah, yeah, there was no training at all. But eventually what the FBI told me was to ask a question and say nothing. So like that negotiation technique of silence. So it asked the question, say nothing. And eventually it took about three meetings. And by the third meeting, the target would

say just enough, you know, oh, I have a source here or just a little bit. And the FBI would say Tom, you're done here on to the next one. So this went on for two years, and one guy was high up the FBI's list. He was onto me so early. 15 conversations he would change the subject. He calls me on a Sunday night, and he says, Tom, we need to have dinner tonight. We need to talk. And I called the FBI and said, this guy who wants to have dinner,

they met me at the train station in New York. I took the train out to Connecticut with the wire in my front pocket. He picks me up at the train station, and he says, Tom, good to see you. I brought swim trunks for you. We're going swimming in my mother's house. Yeah, and the Sopranos was popular that summer. So that episode where they forgot the character, but they take him out in the water and kill him.

I was thinking, oh, my God, and went to this guy's house. And I excused myself, went to the restroom, and took the wire out, put it my jeans, put these swim trunks on. We go out to this pool. We get into the pool. He grabs a tennis ball.

We're playing this awkward game of catch. He's pouring on. He's freaking me out. And he said, Tom, I have to ask you, one question, you have to be truthful. I was going to give it up, because I was so scared. I thought the FBI would understand. I said, what's your question? He said, Tom, have you been approached by the SEC? Who's the regulator? And truthfully, I could say, no, not the SEC. He doesn't catch that nuance. He starts telling me everything because he saw I wasn't wearing a wire. This guy was one of the

worst actors. He was never charged by the FBI or the SEC. Wow. That was the scariest moment. Yeah. Yeah, because, I mean, your life's on the line for $46,000. I mean, That's right. How do you process that? Do you kind of go like, what the hell? I'm a now slave. I mean, I don't want to say slave, but you're now controlling permanently with the FBI. And you got to throw their hoops, property of the U.S. government for two years.

Over $46,000. And I'm sure they don't compensate these meetings are time, right? It was a pro bono side hustle. Yeah, so I'm still going to the office and it's 2008. So we're getting slammed by the market. you know, we're stock market in 75 years, the banks are going under. And then at lunch, I'm getting in that crown, Vic, with the tinted windows, getting my smoothie at the lunch truck in New York and got in the back seat. And they said, here's your next target. Here's what

we're going to do at Starbucks across the street at 430 after the market close and would do these meetings. And Chris, they never gave me any feedback. It was sort of stone-faced FBI agents. Like, how am I doing? And I told my wife, probably isn't going anywhere. I was just trying to stay positive. I thought, I had some crazy thoughts. Like, maybe I'll be a professional informant. Like, maybe they're going to hire me to be the fore. That's not how it works. Yeah, that one guy with the check writing guy was, that movie with Tom? Oh, Abingnell.

Abingnell, right. Yeah, he actually admitted 90% of his story. There's a guy that busted him a few years ago for the whole thing. But yeah, you should have him on and see if he'll talk about it. 90% of that story was fake. A liar being more of a liar? Are you sure? It's the MetaCon.

Exactly. So I was thinking that because that movie was out, you know, the great movie. So I thought maybe I'd be like that guy or maybe they're going to drop the charges. And then two years into it, they said turn on the TV. There was 20 guys perp walked. And there was one name. So coming back to Tipper X, one name was not released that was right in the middle of all these Wall Street guys. And it was the youngest guy of all 80 people, Tipper X.

Wow. And I called the FBI. I said, is that me? I knew it. I said, is that me? And they said, yes, you should talk to a lawyer now. So I talked to a lawyer now. Yeah.

Yeah, now and so. Do you just put in two years to the train? Yeah, so I called a lawyer. I called, all I knew was about insider trading was Martha Stewart up to that point. So I called him and he's probably the most expensive guy in Manhattan. I said, all right, thanks. And I pleading guilty anyways, you know, I cooperated. So I'm not going to trial.

And I talked to a lawyer. I said, hey, I'm Tipper X in these cases. And he's like, all right, man, you've been doing it two years. Who was your attorney before me? I said, you're the first I spoken to. He said, Tom, you're supposed to hire me the first day they approached you. I said, Larry, it's my first time doing this. It's not like I've been doing this for four or five times.

First felony. First felony. Well, you know, you learn. That way when you do the later felonies, you know how to work. That's right. But you know, you weren't one of those 20 that got perp walked. Yeah. Where in which end of the stick do you want to be in?

But it's a hell of a lesson. How much? It is. If you don't mind me ask you, and I mean, I want people to think about this, because I've had this conversation, like I said, a lot with loan officers or people in business. And I'm never willing to get, you know, I think about building empires and building things that last a lot of years. In fact, my mortgage company is supposed to last lifetime. But thanks, 2008.

And, you know, and it's always that one thing, like you say, it's like, well, you know, everyone's doing it. Well, you know, there's all these Faustian bargains people are playing with themselves and they don't realize what they're putting on the line sometimes. And a lot of times, too, it's your word to yourself. Like the power of your word, the power of your integrity to yourself is paramount. Because if you're going to bullshit yourself, well, have fun with that. So probably how much would you say you can give me an estimate if you want or you don't have to disclose it? But how much you to say that $46,000 cost you in actual money, maybe hiring a new attorney and all that stuff? Yeah, so the attorneys, there was a couple hundred thousand legal fees, but

the real cost was my career. And so when I speak in a college every year at NYU, I have a professor friend that calculates this number of Tom's career that he threw away. And that number for the students to see is pretty shocking. And for me, he gets to like a number of 23 million if I had a 15 year career in hedge funds with ups and downs. And so he's like, Tom, why did you do it for 46,000? And so for the young students to see that, they look at me. Like, it makes no sense. There's no rational reason why a person would cross the line for such a small amount when you throw away your career like that. And that's, that's the calculation. And I put that in the book just so people know, like, $23 million is what I, what I, you know, threw away. And my kids were reading the book,

and they're like, Dad, wait, what? We'd be flying private. Like, oh, unfortunate the situation was. Well, you know, it's an important lesson. And a lot of people don't get to experience this or they don't write about it. So this is really cool that you got a chance to share with people and hopefully educate people. And, you know, greed is not good. Greed, you know, what's the There's an old saying they have at the Justice Department. We've had at least one or two people on from the Justice Department. Well, if you count the FBI and CIA more. But what's that old line from the Justice Department?

The wheels of justice move exceedingly slow. Or no, the wheels of justice move slow, but grind exceedingly fine. And that tells what you need to know. You can try and escape and run and maybe things, you know, you can get away of stuff. You see these guys who committed burr back before they had DNA. and, you know, 30 years later, 40 years or 50 years later, they get caught. And, you know, and then there's the guilt of living with it, too. There's the guilt and shame of knowing you violated your own oath to yourself, your integrity, and everything else.

So now you've created, you're out helping, you know, share this with other people in the world. Tell us about what you're doing there at tipperX.com. Yeah, so the FBI invited me to speak about this. So I was sentenced in 2015 to no prison because they arrested 81 guys. and they gave me credit for 20 of those arrests. And so it wasn't clear, though, because there was Occupy Wall Street. If you remember that, it was like, you know, down with the bankers and these protests in New York after the crisis. But the judge said, hey, you were the key informant.

And I still took a felony credit security is fraud. Really? And the FBI, yeah, I took a securities fraud and a conspiracy to commit securities fraud. So I'm actually one of the consequences, and I'm not complaining. I made these choices and brought it on myself. But I'm actually debanked in the country at the major bank. So I have to find credit unions where I can just have a contract. checking account. And it impacts your travel worldwide, too. And it does, right? I have to search the

country. So Japan and Australia are probably off limits for the hardened family, unless I can get expungement or something. But yeah, you have to check the countries. And the banking is a tough one. And so there's, you know, 20 million people in the country with felonies. So that's a tough one. But what I, the FBI invited me to speak about this. So 2016, I got a call from that restricted number. And my wife's like, what did you do now? You know, she stayed with me. And I said, I don't know. was I watching illegal movies or something. And the FBI said, hey, can you come talk to the rookie agents because you were the youngest guy we charged with the 80 people? And you're just a regular guy.

And this is how we usually just stop regular guys. It's not Bernie Madoff. Usually it's a regular Tom Hardin from Georgia. And so I spoke at the FBI and they said, hey, go make eliminated lemons of this situation. Just speak to all these young professionals and students about it. And so I went on the pilgrimage to colleges in New York and I didn't charge initially to say, hey, does this make sense to you guys? and they understood those rationalizations and those lines. And then eventually companies just started hiring me to speak for their kind of ethics training every year.

And they turned into 650 talks in 13 countries. And my publisher reached out last year and said, let's get this on the page and keep the momentum going to other industries outside of Wall Street. Because it applies to anybody. And so that's what I do today. One of the topics in the book I came up with was this idea of the integrity gap where we all think about our reputation. I was so consumed about what people thought of me. I'm being in the know of the information. And you mentioned that character,

those sacrifices we make with ourselves, those lines that we cross. And that integrity gap is that distance between our character and our reputation. And all those rationalizations are in between. And so we want to try to close that gap. And so every company is focused on reputation management, but rarely thinking about what are my sort of unpeachable values

and what is my character, what does it look like every day? And so that's when I turn to espouse in my workshops and my keynotes. I was a realtor for six years, and there was a company-wide, or I think it was a local-wide thing there in Utah. And every year, you had to go through, maybe it was two years, you had to go through an ethics training class. And I remember taking it, it was really insightful, but I remember some of the comments, some of the interesting things said from the participants that I was like, you know, they're asking questions like, well, so if I disclose, you know, if I betray my fiduciary duty to my client, and, you know, work out a deal between the other guy that's benefit to us, but not the best deal for my client. I mean, is it still okay?

And, you know, that sort of thing. And, yeah, I mean, I've seen all my life through business. I'm sure you see it now, especially in what you do. And, you know, there needs to be more ethics training. I think more leaders need ethical training. Because it's not only the word to what you promise other people and what you do and how people, you know, is this a leader, I can trust or not, but it's also the word of yourself. It's the power of yourself. I know that if I bullshit myself, I'm going to pay the price probably for it. It won't be today. That's right.

You know, but it'll be tomorrow with interest. That's right. So I think this is really, that's very well said. Yeah, I'm speaking more leadership summits too, just on that point, like, assuming we all want to do the right thing, how do we get our good people to be even better. And some of the best ethics programs I've seen is when they actually recognize an employee who, who turned down a commercial opportunity because there was some corruption risk with it and passed on the business. And then you know, you want to like highlight those people and say this individual did the right thing and turning down this business. And that was a great piece of business we could have, but the corruption risk was too much. And so, you know, highlighting the why behind the, you know,

the decision. Yeah. And there's a million examples you can do with this. I mean, I had employees come to me and be like, hey, my wife takes my whole check. Can you give me a signed check? I remember, I think there was some sales loan officers that left us and processes left us when they found out that we wouldn't allow faking of signatures and, you know, different sketchy stuff in the mortgage business that end up causing, I think, 2020, 2008, kind of. There was a lot that went into that. But, you know, and we would lose, we lose sales. I mean, there was, I remember one time a guy came out to me at a convention from another

mortgage company, he goes, hey, man, did you guys ever get paid from this loan officer who brought us four deals from you guys. He had your leads and he said he was going to pay you and take care of it. I was like, no, we never did. And so we looked into it. But, you know, we lost money because we would be like, yeah, we're not doing illegal stuff. And we found out this particular employee had an alcohol problem. Of course, we kind of knew about that. That's always interesting the people. Anyway, I'm not going to get into the particular alcohol. But, you know, if you have someone who drinks Crown Royal on a regular basis, check on them. Yeah. Something about that. Especially if they, yeah, they really love Crown Royal.

I don't know what that's about, but there's a consistency there I've found over the years. When you hire salespeople, you know, they sometimes come with all sorts of abuse substance issues. I'm sure. I'm sure. Yeah. It's always, it's always that you're either bailing them out of jail or picking them up at local bar or whatever. I got stories. Always.

You know, we need, that line has to be helped because, you know, if your other employees see that you're willing to allow illicit stuff to take place or, even if it's questionable moral morality or questionable ethics, you know, we've all seen cases where leaders or CEOs will say one thing through the PR, drip output, you know, we're a moral ethical organization. Right.

And they get caught. The shareholder letter of blue sky, wanka, wanka. And then they'll sit there and, you know, eventually employees will be like, he's full of shit.

He doesn't live. He doesn't walk his talk. He doesn't live his thing. And people do want, you know, they focus on leadership and they want someone who's ethical, moral. And because they know that sometimes they may be on the docket for, you know, getting fired or, you know, I've had situations where I have to, you know, I've got two employees and I've got to figure out which one's lying and which one's the problem. And so, yeah. So you do speaking. I see some services here as well as speaking.

Tell us about some of the other stuff you have. Yeah. So speaking and with the book, I'm going to roll out some courses just, you know, on decision making. And to your point, like I just am engaging more with leadership summits beyond just ethics training because companies that bring me in, they're like, oh, we have a great tone at the top, Tom. You know, we don't need you. Like, no, no, no, tone at the top, what you were saying is just the words. For me, culture is the behaviors employees believe will be rewarded.

And that's where the gap is sometimes between that shareholder letter. That's always a great tone. It's always cookie cutter. But what are the behaviors people are seeing at desk nest to them? And sometimes companies don't want to ask the questions that they may not want to know the answers to because it reflects back on leadership. So that's also doing better surveys on the culture. Not do we have an ethical culture, that's a terrible question.

Which of our four values are true and which are not? And in what way you're going to get more grain of their data? So that's why I was encouraged to just to really be fully accountable. I was speaking a European company last week and their code of conduct that everybody signed, had 10 questions to ask yourself if you're ever at that line. I said, can I rip this up? They said, please don't do that. They said, hey, if you're at that line, ask yourself one question.

Am I willing to be held accountable? for this decision at the end of the day. And that's all you're really going to ask yourself. Am I willing to be accountable? Am I willing? You know, there's a great line from the album by Rush called Roll the Bones. People are like, why is he bringing music into this? And there's a great line, we will count the cost, but we won't, we'll count the cost,

we won't count the price when we evaluate stuff. Yeah. When we buy stuff, you know, we'll be like, hey, I'll pay the price for that. But you won't count the cost of what that might be. And that speaks to what we're talking about here. A lot of people will be like, ah, you know, 46,000, you know, well, maybe they'll, I might get a fine or something. I don't know.

But usually we underestimate that cost, especially when we circumvental ethics, morals, and our own personal word to ourselves, the power of our word to ourselves. And once you start down that slippery slope, it doesn't end, you know, because like you said, you probably would have kept doing it if you hadn't been stopped. and probably thank God you were stopped early on you know you didn't become the big fish that ended up on the 20 perk walk that's exactly right i'm happy they stopped me because i would have kept doing it and i'm happy they invited me to speak about this years later and put me on this path of you know eliminated a lemons because it's really it's really meaningful you know work for me just to get those emails from the young guys

hey i saw yourself and you all i'll never forget those so that's i'm up in the book it's out there for more people like that and hopefully so too as we wrap up the show any Anything more you want to discuss or tease out about the work you're doing and the book, etc., etc. We haven't covered. Yeah, no, it's just, it's wired on Wall Street. It's out wherever books are sold. And I also want to just have people read it that maybe going through something self-inflicted

on their own. And you can see that I wrote in there, you know, your scars can become your service. You can really accept responsibility. And really, the hardest part, Chris, is to forgive yourself. And that's something that's ongoing for me. And you mentioned shame and the guilt. And the shame is, nobody needs the shame. The shame is I'm a terrible person.

as maybe I'm a regular guy that did the wrong thing and nobody should have to live with the shame. So I talk about that too. And it's number one new release in white collar crime, true accounts here on Amazon folks. So check that out as well. And it comes out tomorrow. February 20th, 26.

Yeah. Wired on Wall Street. No, it's not a story about Wall Street trader doing lots of Coke and Adderall. It's FBI work. Yeah, that's right. Because the rest of stories are probably that. Anyway, I've known some Wall Street. Let's put it that way.

Did your wife, did you, was, so with the Lehman brothers, I mean, would your wife, you get laid off? I mean, you really had a pile of stuff coming at you. Yeah, she got laid off. And then the FBI approached me two months after she was laid off. And then she finally, she was lucky she found a job before they went under. But she was holding out the fourth the whole time. And I was, my name became Tipper X in the front page of the Wall Street Journal.

Two days after she went back to work after maternity leave. So you can imagine a young mother. It's always a very hectic time, first born back to work. And she's back to work showing pictures of the baby. And then two days later, her husband's name on the front page of the Wall Street Journal. So as I interviewed, it was pretty surreal to interview my wife from my memoir last year. I said, what was it like for you, Sue? And she said, thanks for asking because you never did, Tom.

Like, wow, you're right. You're right. Well, sometimes, I mean, you're in that mode of survival. And, you know, I mean, you've got the guns. trained on you and you're doing the best for yourself and your family. And so it's important to think about that before you do these things. So I'm glad you're out here educating people on ethics and morals. I'm a big believer in it.

I've lost probably, I don't know, maybe a million dollars over all the years of my companies going back to age 18, probably maybe it's not a million, maybe half a million or quarter million. Maybe I don't know. You'd have to stack up all the deals. But over 20 years, there was a lot of mortgage deals and a lot of conversations that took a pass on. Sometimes I found out they were, in fact, no, it actually probably is that high. There was actually some Chinese investors who in Vegas helped me start, wanted me to start a mortgage company for them and work my CEO magic. And within six or eight months of starting that,

I found that they were trying to give illicit loans to their mothers and their family. And I quit and walked away because when it goes to jail, I'm the broker, you know, who's supposed to to prevent it. And I said, no, I'm not doing that. And it was painful. And I lost a lot doing it. So probably, yeah, if you count losses, too, and what it's cost me in money. But it beats having a felony and going to jail. I mean, it's... You only get one reputation. You can always switch jobs. People always call me. Should I blow the whistle? And like, hey, you know what? You get one reputation. And I've learned the hard way. It's very hard to rebuild that. I've tried to do with this work. And hopefully I can do this a lot longer in my Wall Street career. But that's...

You only get one. So protect that. And you're giving back and helping other people see the light. So I think that's one of the most important things too. Thank you very much, Tom, for coming to the show. You give us your dot coms one last time as we go out. Sure. It's tipperx.com, tippe, p-p-er-x.com. All my information is there. Thank you very much for Tom for coming on. Order up his book where refined books are sold, wired on Wall Street. The rise and fall of Tipper X, one of the FBI's most prolific informants. Thanks for us for for tuning in. Go to goodreads.com, Fortress, S. Chris Foss. LinkedIn.com, Fortress Sust, Christfoss, YouTube.com, Fortress, Sucfoss, and all those are the crazy places on the internet. Be good to each other.

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