The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – You or Someone You Love: Reflections from an Abortion Doula by Hannah Matthews

Episode Date: May 3, 2023

You or Someone You Love: Reflections from an Abortion Doula by Hannah Matthews https://amzn.to/3ARWQX1 An eye-opening, transformative, and actionable journey through radical and compassionate community abortion care and support work: what it looks like, how each and every one of us can practice and incorporate it into our daily lives, and what we can imagine and build together in a post-Roe v. Wade United States. Abortion touches all of our lives. While statistically nearly everyone knows someone who will receive an abortion in their lifetime, limiting narratives flatten our understanding and assumptions around abortion, while stigma and criminalization stifle discussion. What we lack are the language and tools to provide care and support to all of the members of our communities who receive abortions, before, during, and after them. Now, Hannah Matthews—abortion care worker, doula, journalist and essayist, and reproductive rights advocate—breathes depth and nuance into the oversimplified narratives surrounding abortion, presenting an accessible guide to the emotional and physical realities of providing and supporting abortion care for our own communities. Featuring stories of real abortion experiences, including Matthews’s own, You or Someone You Love offers a glimpse into the stunningly diverse landscape of abortion care across gender, race, and class lines, while illustrating how we can better support and protect the people who seek abortion in a country that increasingly promotes secrecy and shame.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. This is Voss here from the chrisvossshow.com, the chrisvossshow.com. Welcome to the Big Show on Podcast. We certainly appreciate you guys tuning

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Anyway, check them out. There's AI Podcast with Chris Voss. It's so new, I can't even remember what it's called. And you can go to AICrisVoss.com or you can just Google it, whatever it's up there. There's also the leadership, Chris Voss leadership podcast that's available now. You can check that as well.

Both those are silos or verticals that are copies of what guests that appear on the Chris Voss show. So you'll still see them on the Chris Voss show, but you'll also see stuff over on those if you're interested in AI, which is artificial intelligence for those of you not quite up to par with everything that's going on. Today, we have an amazing author on the show. Hannah Matthews is on the show with us today. She's the author of the latest book that just barely came out. Holy crap, yesterday. May 2nd, 2023. Are we halfway through? Almost halfway through the year? Stop it. Make it stop. Anyway, pick up her book, wherever fine books are sold. It's called You or Someone You Love, Reflections from an Abortion Doula.

We're going to be talking about her book. Hannah, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here, Chris. There you go. And Hannah, give us a.com where people can find you on the interwebs, please. Yeah. So right now, the best place isannamatthews.me,

and that has links to all my work, all my writing. If folks need abortion support resources or education resources, they'll be there. There you go. And so what motivated you on to write this book, Hannah? Yeah. So I've had a lot of different jobs in my life. I still have a million jobs. I've worked at

public libraries. I've worked, you know, I'm a mom. I've worked in childcare, preschool teacher. I love kids. I love families. And I just love being in the community. And one job I started a few years ago was working in a reproductive healthcare clinic. And it provides abortion care, but also, you know, birth control, cancer screenings, all kinds of other types of healthcare that folks in my community, especially who don't have health insurance, or don't have, you know, too much disposable income can access, you know, in a place that's really free from judgment, free from shame, and we can help them, you know, get stay healthy and thriving, and build their families the way they want to, and have, you know, get stay healthy and thriving and build their families the way they want to and have, you know, healthy pregnancies, healthy lives.

And so, you know, I really noticed that so many people are having abortions, whether that's, you know, because the their pregnancy can't survive. It isn't healthy for them, whether it's because, you know, they can't afford to give birth and raise a kid, you know, so many reasons. And they're all across the spectrum, right? They vote for Trump, they vote for Bernie Sanders, they don't vote like they're, we have helped so many folks have abortions who would tell you they're pro-life, they're Catholic, they don't believe in abortion. But really, it's, it's all of us. And most people who have abortions are mothers or parents. They already have kids. And just kind of, I was like, you know, if this is happening all around us all the time,

it's people in our families, it's our college roommates, our friends, our girlfriends, you know, whatever. We should all be equipped, no matter what our political views are, to help the people we love, like, stay safe healthy and okay, and make sure they're getting what they need. And so, you know, my thing is, I just want everyone to know, like, we're all broke, we're all busy, we're all tired, we don't have the energy to keep up with all these crazy laws that are passing and, you know, all the news that's so stressful, but we can kind of get in there where we can, and, you know, give someone $20 or point someone to a fund they can use,

or like an organization that will support them. Like if we just kind of all get a baseline of education, then we can support, you know, our daughters, our sisters, our friends when they need us. And that's really, you know, that's best for families. Like abortion helps communities thrive. It helps families thrive. And it's just something that is a normal and necessary part of reproductive health care, just like, you know, prenatal care, miscarriage management, all of it. So you've done a lot of different work in this field. You're based up in Portland, Maine, and you've been published in the New York times, L magazine,

Esquire, time, Jezebel, McSweeney's teen Vogue and other publications. So you've done a lot of great work. Let's, let's lay a foundation. What is a doula?

Because I never knew what this term until I came across your book pitch. And so establish, establish what an a doula is. Yeah, for sure. Thanks so much for asking. So a doula comes from, you know, the word comes from an ancient Greek word that originally meant like female servant, female slave. So these would be women who were around, you know, if a woman was giving birth or having

a miscarriage or like going through something, these women would be around her, you know, helping her get what she needed, helping the doctor, helping, you know, helping her spiritually, emotionally, physically, all of it. So a lot of folks don't like to use that term anymore, but I still do just because it's kind of easier for folks to understand if they've heard of birth doulas, like they kind of automatically understand what I do. But a doula is someone who gives someone non-medical support. So we're not healthcare providers, we're not doctors, we're not nurses, but we can give someone, you know, emotional, spiritual, physical, financial support. So basically just fill in those gaps that like a community and a village would fill in for someone.

There you go. And you guys are different than a midwife because a midwife does the medical and then you guys do the emotional support. And to me, this is very needed. You know, across my life, I've had a lot of experiences between girlfriends and gal pals. You know, I had a gal pal call me one time. She was having a miscarriage. It was very far along, actually, but she still could do it at home. But it was still so emotionally traumatizing.

And I remember her calling me. And I, as a man, masculine man, I have no way to process it. And, you know, we're very different men because we can't, we solve problems. And we're not very good when it comes, when women come to us with their emotional thing and being able to do it. And really, women need that community, that female community of support, and a lot of them don't have that. I was watching a female speaker a while ago, and she was talking about one of the things that women used to have back in the day is they used to have a community of women that they would go spend time with and they'll you know there's a lot of this goes back to caveman times and they would uh you know well the men are hunting and chasing

you know whenever we chase you know go kill and hunt and bring it back um you know women would have this community where they would do stuff i mean even when i grew up there was uh i know this sounds old timey but it kind of is because i'm 50 um but you know even in the mormon community that i grew up in there women would have these quilting things and then we get together and quilt it really wasn't about the quilting so much it was about the community and and this uh speaker i was watching recently she said one of the problems that women have nowadays is they don't have really a community there everyone's kind of isolated we're all kind of isolated when you really think about it now we're all in our little homes we don't even talk to our neighbors like

when i grew up you know we talked to our neighbors went to dinner with them got sugar from them salt and stuff like that but now we're just like the people across the street scary yeah for sure and that's something that kind of you know especially now, you know, it's like across gender lines, like I see patients all the time who like, have sexually transmitted infections, or like, don't know what's going on with their bodies, because they have no one to talk to, it's not safe, they don't feel like they can talk to anyone in their lives about like, the sex they might be having, or the symptoms they might be having, or just like their lives, like they don't feel like they can really share anything private or personal with anyone. And that's, that's a big problem when it comes to our health. And especially like, those things that we've made kind of shameful and secret, like sex and pregnancy. So yeah, I think it's really helpful for people like if you are someone who is pregnant or can get pregnant to be surrounded by people who know what that's like and who know kind of you know just how it feels or how it might feel

for you to have to end a pregnancy or to have to continue a pregnancy and give birth um you know it's really great to have like you said be surrounded kind of by that community that knows what you're going through and what kind of support you might want or need. Yeah. And women can support each other in a different way than men can with women and that emotional thing that they can have. And they can, and they bond as a community better. You know, I've, I've, I've, there are certain things women can talk about and, and some of these things too. I, I mean, the value of a woman is placed on society and her perception. And so different things like abortion or miscarriage or things like that, or like you mentioned, some sexual transplants. These are things you don't want your neighbors to know about or friends to know about, or maybe the community of your quilting community from 50 years ago.

I think you still quilt in the state of Utah. And so having someone like you is someone that they can confide in without having that get up to the community or end up on TikTok. Right. Yeah, for sure. It's their private business. I'm very into us all minding our own business, but I also want to be that person that like someone can feel safe or not embarrassed to say like, Hey, this is going my body and i can say like oh that's normal like that happens all the time you know like that's you're not weird you're not bad like it's all right um this sounds like fridays for me yeah yeah but it's both right like i just i don't want people to feel like they have to keep it secret but obviously it's their business to choose to share or not share. Um, which is a problem with a lot of these laws is like, you know, these judges and these laws are really trying to come into our bedrooms, our hospital rooms, our families,

and trying to like get in our most intimate business, um, and criminalize it. And that's a big problem for me. Yeah, it definitely has exploded with the overturning of roe versus wade and other things going on which is really interesting uh how the court's operating in the sense and and uh you know we've got this right-wing court that's very religious and so uh you focus mainly on uh being an abortion doula so So you're helping people that are going through the abortion decisions and process. Tell us a little bit about how that works and some of the different services you provide that way, I guess. Yeah. So often someone needs a doula because they don't really have, you know, like they have an abusive boyfriend that they have to keep their abortion a secret from or, you know, their parents can't know about it or they have to miss work and like someone has to watch their kids and they don't really have those people in their lives that support them.

And so often that's where a doula comes in. And so I'll kind of help someone figure out like, okay, what do you want to do? Like maybe you don't want to, but what do, what do you want to do? Like, maybe you don't want to, but what do you feel like you need to do? Like what medical advice do you need? How can we find you a doctor to like see you examine you give you medical advice? And just kind of like, what are the what types of care do you want? Like, do you want me to sit and pray with you? Do you want me to hold your hand while you cry? Or like, do you more just need a ride to the airport so you can go to another state and have your abortion because

where you are, you can't have it? Do you need, you know, recently like a local fund had to help a patient raise $15,000 because they didn't have health insurance. They had to fly to another state. They had to get kind of a complicated procedure and then fly home. So like, sometimes people need like enormous amounts of money, just to have this very simple, very safe type of healthcare done. So often it's logistics, right? People have kids, most people who have abortions have kids. It's finding, you know, watching their kids, finding childcare, helping them figure out how they're going to miss a day of work or miss a few hours of work, things like that. And so really I'm just kind of that like net

of support that's going to catch someone, you know, no matter why they're falling or where they're falling. Interesting. How often do you find that abortions are done where the man involved is aware that that's going to happen? In my experience, that's usually the case. I would say often there's a partner who is either there or they're not there, but they're supportive. It's rare that a partner is not involved in any way. But yeah, it really depends on the situation. I've been seeing lately a lot of married folks having abortions. So a husband and wife will come together to the clinic. Yeah, I think I saw some stats once that said that sometimes when people just have a full family, and it's just kind of financial sometimes.

But, I mean, there's a lot of hard decisions. I mean, a woman's, you know, women's womb, we protect it. You know, it's women and children first. There's also things we do in society because without women in the womb, we wouldn't propagate as a species and a lot of everything we do is designed around uh protecting women and and protecting the womb uh you know and making sure that uh the species continues otherwise we would have probably died out a long time ago um and so in the book you uh titled it reflections uh are there stories tell us what the reflections are in your book and some of the content yeah yeah for sure um so it's kind of a gathering of different folks stories and expertise so like i always say there's no such thing as an abortion expert because the only expert on any given

abortion is the person having it or the person who already had it um so for example, my abortion story is in there. I had an abortion after my son was about to turn one year old. And so he was a baby. I had a very high risk pregnancy and was very sick. And if I continued this pregnancy, I would have been in and out of the hospital, very sick and not really a great mom for a one year old. Like I wouldn't have been able to be with him, care for him, love him. And so really for me, my abortion was an act of parenting my son that I already had. And just, you know, it was in pursuit of his thriving and his wellbeing and his health. So, you know, I tell my story and then other folks tell their stories of like why they had their abortions, how their abortions went, and then also kind of like who helped them, like who supported them when they needed it and how it's really the book is meant to like show folks like, oh, yeah, like even though I'm broke and stressed or like even though I'm not super excited about abortion in general as like an idea and I'm kind of ambivalent about abortion when it's my daughter who like is you

know needs this miscarriage management which often turns out to be abortion care or you know just has this pregnancy that's in a really bad situation and you know is young and can't do this, then I know how to kind of step up and like, do what needs to be done. And it's also just like, you know, I interviewed a lot of religious leaders, because I do think that's something that a lot of folks struggle with. And there's some really amazing organizations out there, like Catholics for Choice, National Council of Jewish Women that really help folks. You know, there are like hotlines where you can call and talk to a pastor or priest, and they can kind of like, give you that spiritual guidance and comfort through your abortion.

Because, you know, it's only recently that people have kind of seized on this, like, Christianity or Catholicism as the reason we can't have abortions. And it's not really the text isn't there if you're really reading the Bible. And like, you know, a lot of religious leaders and clergy are like here to say, hey, okay, let's pray together. Let's talk to God about this. Like God knows why you're here and why you're doing this and God's okay with you. God loves you. That kind of thing. So that can be really helpful for people. And then just, yeah, all the different, like, it's so complicated, right? Like every family situation is so complicated. So just helping folks figure out what they need and kind of tune out all the noise of

like the politics and the people screaming at them on the sidewalk and what they learned in Sunday school and all of that. There you go. And, and, uh, you know, it's interesting to me, there was a statute gave me in the beginning about people, uh, uh, in, if you could give me those again, stats, uh, people that are religious, like even religious people or people that are, uh, anti-choice, I guess, or anti-abortion, uh, you find if they're put in this situation, sometimes they use it. Oh yeah. And you know, a lot of folks kind of justify like, well, my situation's different. Well, I need this abortion. Like other people shouldn't have abortions because they feel like

it. Or, you know, there's kind of this idea that like, when you're in a tough situation, like you're suffering, but you know, you're like a good ethical, moral person and it's okay. But when it's someone else, you don't necessarily extend that same grace and you have judgment toward them. And you think like, well, then they shouldn't have had sex. Like, well then, you know, X, Y, Z. So often it is people who are, I think would pass judgment on someone else in their same situation, but because they know, you know, I have good intentions, I'm a good family man, and this is my wife, and, like, whatever it is, you know, they can kind of justify it for themselves, and I totally get that, but it is, I think, like I said, like, I think 25% of U.S. abortion patients are practicing Catholics, right. They're about Catholics and like many,

many Christians who are going to church every Sunday and hearing about, you know, how abortion is sin and evil and murder, you know, they're coming to have abortions when they need them. Um, if they can access them. So it really is just something that's like,

I always, a birth July tattoo is is like you know a birth can turn into a death real quick like these lines are blurry like people get sick people get injured pregnancies die pregnancies don't work out like there's sexual assault you can get pregnant um you know we've seen a lot of very young patients who don't know they're pregnant because they have never had a period. They don't know. And they're not receiving sex education to know that they are pregnant.

So it's just kind of like we've made it very black and white. And it's really not. It's like humans live really complicated lives. And they should be able to give birth when and if they want to and when and if it's right for them and no one should be giving birth against their will especially in this country where giving birth is dangerous um and you know it's just like this is a basic thing for me is i just want everyone to understand that like every abortion is different and when you say the word abortion that doesn't just mean one thing that means seven billion different things. That means a different thing for every single person who's gone through it.

Yeah. Because I've had friends that have had all sorts of, the baby's in the wrong place, and there's all sorts of medical variations that can take place or situations um it's interesting to me the religious aspect of it do you find uh because you know i suppose i should expect it because do as i say or say as i do is not applicable to religion i'm an atheist to full disclosure i think everyone on the show knows that after 14 years um and and you know i mean the amount of people that I've known in religion that say one thing and do it and talk on both sides of the mouth are extraordinary. But I guess if you just repent every week, you're fine. But do people that have the strong anti-abortion issues and get an abortion, do they have, this is kind of a funny joke. Do they have, it's an irony. Do they have a come to Jesus moment where they go, well, maybe we should be a little bit more, less lighter on abortions. They go back to being anti-abortion after having an abortion.

Curious. Yeah, it's, I think there's both for sure. I think it really depends what kind of community they're going back to, right? Like, are they going back to like a household that's more open-minded and more able to change their mind when they're presented with like new information? Or are they going back to a household and a church community that's like, no, we never like we're right. No matter what we never change course. Um, I suppose they can never disclose it either. You know, they can't a lot. Yeah. For a lot of folks, they can't even really admit it to themselves. They call it a miscarriage or they, you know, do all kinds of mental gymnastics, which, again, I totally understand.

Because since they're kids, they've heard like this is murder. You're a murderer if you do this. So, of course, they're like they can't tolerate that. You know, I do think anti-abortion people who don't believe that abortion should be legal are a very small majority in this country. So we got a lot of really powerful, wealthy anti-abortion folks, like influencing a lot of decisions and judiciary committees and legislation that's passing, but actual Americans who are just like everyday Americans raising their families, going to work very, very few of them think that abortion should be totally illegal. And I think the reason why is because most people know that at any minute that could be them or a

member of their family or a friend that needs that abortion. It's interesting to me that you say 25% of Catholics get abortions or people that are getting abortions 25 percent of catholics so i have that am i uh am i presenting that number right i think that's right let me look that up i know that i just want to make sure that i said that right in the way yeah well let me look it up so i'm not misquoting but that's a stat that comes from um that organization catholics for choice um who are really like a leading they do a lot of research on the catholic church and abortion laws all right let me take a look so what's interesting is that according to some of the data i pulled up 61 support uh you know freedom of abortion for people but i've always wondered about so that leaves uh you know 39 but then if 25 of the catholics who are against abortion or getting

abortions, you could probably throw in, I don't know, half that figure is full of shit. So now you're down to 20%. So now you're just really with oligarch billionaires like Betsy DeVos's organization, Center for National Policy, and I don't know, the Heritage Group. And, you know, it's basically, we've come to this country, especially with Citizens United, as the battle of oligarch billionaires. And some are on the right, some are on the left. And we're just kind of caught in between.

But it's interesting to me, these numbers. Yeah, I just pulled it up and it says, many abortion patients report a religious affiliation. So as of 2014, 24% of abortion patients in the U.S. were Catholic. 17% were mainline Protestant. 13% were evangelical Protestant. And then 8% identified with some other religion. And 38% had no religious affiliation.

So yeah, it's really, it's people in every church, every synagogue, like people on the bus with you people at your workplace it's everyone who's having abortions because it is again this very common very normal thing yeah well i mean pregnancy birth uh it's pretty common um or attempting a birth you know i when i was young i remember seeing um uh people when i you know i'd have to go to church because my parents forced me um i would see women that had, uh, miscarriages and it's hard. I I've had women in my workplace that have miscarriages and, and then pregnancies, you know, let alone pregnancies hard. You know, I've had, I've had, uh, pregnant mothers waddling around my office, you know, and sometimes they're in that last stage where they've got to just keep moving and the baby's kicking hard and they're just

uncomfortable 24 seven. You know, it's not, it's not comfortable. I'm a fat guy and it's not comfortable, but having a baby inside you and doing all that stuff, that's a whole new level of pain and hormones. And, and so having someone like you who can give them emotional support, who can be there for them and provide something that a lot of us men can't, we were just, we're just lost. Cause the other thing is too, we,

we don't really know what the experience is like yeah i mean and you're raised not to like really be curious about it or talk about it too much for sure and and where someone like you or other women who've gone through the process of it you know you guys know what's going on we we're just we're just gonna sit there and we're just kind of lost um because we don't we don't have an idea and so when a lot of these oh sorry to interrupt go ahead no problem no i was i was rapping and we're just kind of lost because we don't have an idea. And so it's great. When a lot of these, oh, sorry to interrupt. Go ahead.

No problem. No, I was rapping. I was just going to say when a lot of these, you hear a lot of these senators, congressmen, whoever talking about, you know, a 14 year old should have to give birth and give their baby up for adoption. It's like, do you know what that would do

to a 14 year old's body to be, you know, carry a pregnancy for 40 weeks and then give birth? You know it's just it's not like human it's so cruel what these people are proposing yeah it's it's interesting i it it and it's interesting too like i actually i actually said because i'm a strategist so i look at life and social studies in history and i remember saying to a friend when it was rumored it got leaked that the court was going to overturn the thing. And at the time, it was looking like we were just going to have a disaster for Democrats in the House and Senate, and it was going to be just a full wipe because no one was giving a shit to come out to vote. And I said, you know, the only thing that may save the midterms is row overturning Wade or row versus Wade being overturned.

And sure enough, that was it. I was right. I didn't want to be right, but you know, that's, that's the strategic plan of things. I look at the chessboard and go,

Hmm. And so, you know, there's a lot that needs to be done in that thing. And it's interesting how people will vote against their own best interests. I think that's the other curiosity I have of human nature and behavior is voting against their own interests. And like you say, a lot of these people that are religious that end up getting abortions probably did vote against their own interests and supporting their own freedom. And then, you know know there's an old line

from uh uh is it uh david miller no uh it's mill it's the miller comedian from the oldest and all uh new show but he has a line that no one finds christ on prom night in the back of the car it's only when you fucked everybody over in the world no one will talk to you anymore and you're in prison that you find christ this is jim dennis miller there you go anything more you want to donald miller but no there you go i was i i've got it's been so long but it's one of my favorite bits to reference no one finds christ on prom night in the back of the car and and so we get in these mixes and and then we have to reconcile where we're at and then we you know i would i would hope that more people that would find you know hey man maybe i should be maybe we should

let up on other people but you know it's not a river in egypt um hannah anything more you want to share out on the book or tease out in the book so people will pick it up in order yeah so i hope people pick it up um it's a paperback, so it's pretty affordable. You know, it's $18.99, $19, $20. And really just keep it on hand, like kind of no matter if you feel like, this will never be me, I'll never need this. But like, you know, maybe there's like a neighbor or like a high school friend of your daughter or someone who you just feel like, oh, maybe they could use some support or some information or someone to care for them. And like, again, you know, all these folks who are, you know, pro-life and pro-baby and pro-mother and that's their reasoning, their anti-abortion, you know, don't you want then those mothers and children that they have to be safe and

healthy and looked after and cared for kind of, you know, no matter what you feel about their choices. Um, so that's really what I want to say is just like, you know, come to folks with curiosity and compassion, not judgment, no matter who you are, because you probably don't want to be judged, um, for your choices you've made in life. And, you know, everyone, especially pregnant people really deserve like our community support so that's all i really gotta say yeah we need more family support i mean the you know the the other interesting to me thing to me about a lot of legislatures around this country in red states is in my understanding is red states i mean florida is a big abortion state. It's a red state. Georgia.

I think Georgia's turned blue technically, but it's on the line. But, you know, it's a thing where, you know, people don't support the family afterwards, you know. Right. Like, hey, do we have some support for the family? If you want these babies. Oh, sorry. I was going to say a lot of the abortion funds I write about in an interview and like there's the Hoosier abortion fund in Indiana. They also have like diaper banks and like formula banks and they are like helping these babies and these parents, whether or not you know they're giving birth or how many kids they have whatever in a way that the anti abortion side is not giving these families any support. So often like the abortion funds and the abortion clinics are the ones who have, you know, they're giving out diapers, they're giving out baby food. So I think that's kind of important to keep in mind. It's like reproductive rights

means for people who have their kids too. Yeah, there you go. You know, it's, it's, uh, I saw a funny Tik TOK, uh, of a guy who goes out to abortion events and, uh, you know, there's a, there was that meme there for a while where, uh, all the anti-abortionists were saying, uh, you know, put them up for adoption. We will adopt him, you know, and blah, blah, blah. abortion uh protests and sites and stuff and walking around with an abortion or not abortion an adoption uh uh clipboard and he's like hey um you guys you guys are here you're against abortion uh here let's go ahead and sign you up for adoption and so you'll adopt these babies and like it was just hilarious to see how many people just ran from that you're like wait wait do as they say say say as they do. Yeah. It's almost like it's not about the babies and taking care of the babies. It's almost like it's about controlling other people and what they do. Controlling dominance and superiority complex and mob mentality.

Stop, stop, stop this crap humans. I wish we'd talk in human nature and, or be so reflective of human nature. Anyway, thank you very much, Hannah,

for coming on the show. Like I say, I've seen a lot of women go through a lot of different issues with pregnancy and miscarriage and abortion and other things. And, you know, the emotional stuff they go through is tough and any support we can give to, you know,

keep from emotional damage to happen is good. Give us your.com. It's one more time or.me. Oh yeah. Before we go. Hannah time or.me. Oh yeah. Before we go. Hannah Matthews.me is my website. And then you can find me on Twitter. Um,

usually yelling about abortion or yelling about, you know, my toddler drawing on the walls or all kinds of stuff. Um, and that's Hannah M says on Twitter. There you go. Uh, thank you very much,

Hannah, for coming on the show as well. Thank you so much, Chris. Awesome. There you go. And I learned what a doula is. I learned something new today and hopefully there you go there you go all right thanks thank you very much and thanks to our audience for tuning in go to goodreads.com

fortress christmas youtube.com fortress christmas linkedin.com fortress christmas and we'll see you guys next time and that should have us out