The Church of Eleven22 - [BONUS] Relate: a conversation about your love life - Episode 08: How to Fight

Episode Date: March 1, 2021

What's up 1122 family? Welcome back to relate a conversation about our love lives. I hope you joined us last week as we unpacked what it looks like to serve your spouse through a great sex life. It got interesting. This week, Pastor Jobi preached on what the Bible says about fighting, which I know applies to none of the married people watching right now, but he brought the word and I think everyone was fast scribbling notes. I know I was. So today may be one of the most helpful episodes because not only do we have Pastor Jobian Gretchen, but we have with us here an expert. Rebecca, thank you so much for joining us.

So you are a Christian marriage and family therapist, so tell us what that means. So that means that in my work with mental health, I focus in on the family relationships. So couple relationships, parents and their children. So I do a lot of work with the family system, and I approach my work with the idea of the family system in mind. And since I'm a Christian,

I get to bring that in when appropriate to the session to help people put together their faith with what they're experiencing and need to do differently at home. So good. And my husband and I actually got to do our premarital counseling with you. How lucky you are. And look how, yeah, our marriage is so great because of you. Okay, so before we dive in, we're going to do a little icebreaker question. And Rebecca, you'll answer on behalf of what you and your amazing husband, Sean, who's also on staff with us,

from your marriage, just for the icebreaker question, what is the dumbest fight you have ever been in? Okay, so Gretchen, we'll start with you. What's the dumbest fight you and Joby have ever been in? Back when we were living in Athens, Georgia, Joby was heavy into bodybuilding and we were competing. We, meaning I joined in because I needed to see him at least, you know, an hour out of the day and he spent three hours in the gym at that point of our life.

I know how things change. Yes. So in order for me to, you know, I just had to get on board. Let's just say that. So I decided to compete in the same competition as him. And when he was in competition mode, he was a robot. He did not cheat. He was mean for 16 weeks, just unhappy because all he was eating was chicken and broccoli.

And so I was not like that. I cheated a lot. On your diet. On my diet. Correct. That's what I'm talking about my diet. Sorry. Forget what this show's all about.

And so, Joby goes to church one Wednesday evening for youth or Sunday. I don't remember which one it was. But I said, okay, I'll see you later. And I was going to go later. And I went to the ice cream shop on the way and got like a three scoop ice cream cone. like in the middle of August. It was hot. So I'm walking back to my Honda Accord, and I get in, and I turn it on, and Joby comes up to my window.

And I'm like, hey, and I put my window down. And I have my ice cream right here by the window, and I just kind of turned it. I hoping he wouldn't see. And it just starts dripping and melting everywhere. And Joby's like, what are you doing? I was like, I just, I don't even remember what I said. Lies, it was just the weird of lies. There was a tropical smoothie beside, or a smoothie king beside the ice cream shop,

and that's where he was getting a smoothie because he's a robot. And so he acted like he didn't see it. And he says bye, and I, before I roll up the window, I was like, I love you, Joby. Like real pitiful, like real busted. And so fast forward, we go to youth, doesn't say anything, come home that night, Later on that night, Joby said, so how was that ice cream? And I was just like, all right, I was so fed up with the whole dieting thing. I hated every second of it.

I was like, nobody can be as perfect as you, Joby Martin. Yes. Yeah, that was it. I will have my ice cream go. And he said he literally felt like I was cheating on him at that point. That's how serious he took it. Wow. I do want to clarify.

I'm not defending whatsoever. That I do not keep my wife on a strict diet in our regular life. This was just, we had agreed to do this thing and she asked me to train her. Right, so it was the program. It's not, I'm not measuring her food or anything weird. She can eat whatever she wants. Hilarious. Okay, that's a good one.

Rebecca, what do you have? So I did talk to my husband about this because for some reason I just, I don't really remember a lot of these little things. And I think that that's it. There's a lot of little things. Like if I wash my face and leave water on the sink on the counter, that bothers him. If he takes his, you all know he loves button-down shirts. So when he takes those off, he does not unroll the sleeves and they go in the washer. And that drives me crazy.

So it's a lot of little things that we probably snip at each other about, but they do seem to fade pretty quickly. We call those perpetual problems. They're things that are never going to get totally fixed. So you have to kind of have some humor about them. Right. The more you can make fun of the things, then the easier it becomes. Okay, so there are so many questions about fighting. Small ones like, is it okay to walk away?

Is yelling wrong? Is it okay to take a break while fighting? Is it really true that you shouldn't go to sleep angry? Can you fight in front of your kids? The list goes on. So, Rebecca, what are some general fighting rules you could advise couples on? So probably the first and biggest one is listen to us. This one is listen to understand and not to respond.

And in fact, listening is probably the most important part of conflict resolution. We think that we want to get our point in there and be heard. But understanding each other is the key to resolving any conflict. So I would start there. I think also don't characterize your spouse in a conflict. Don't tell them how they are or what they are. Don't name call. That always escalates things.

When you're in conflict, the goal is to stay, you know, united and together. And you can only do that when you listen and understand and describe yourself. When you start describing your partner, it automatically puts them on the defensive. And so it will derail your whole conflict resolution process and kind of escalate things. And Pastor Joby said this before, and I think it's something really wise to remember. Meet emotion with emotion and logic with logic. And if you just remember those couple things, you'll do pretty well. Don't see your partner as the enemy. remind yourself that you are united and you are one, and they're not on the opposite side of the boxing ring,

but you're there together trying to find something that works for both of you. Can you explain what listen to understand versus listen to respond means? Like what does that mean in the brain? Yeah. So listening to understand is listening to try to understand exactly what your partner is thinking and feeling. Feelings are really important part of conflict resolution. So you're listening to respond in such a way that lets them know that you've understood what they're saying. When you feel understood, you're automatically going to be more open to what the other person has to say.

Versus listening to respond, you might hear the first five or six words, and you're just devising in your head. What you're going to come back with? Yeah. Got it. So Joby and Gretchen, what are some general fair fighting rules you guys have in your marriage? Most fights are stupid fights for us And like a week later We're gonna look back and go that was so dumb

So we've decided We're just gonna do a do-over And one of us will say Can I have a do-over And then it totally wipes the slate clean And we never talk about it again Unless it's a major issue We usually don't do a do-over

If it's a major thing Yeah, they don't do it like six times a week or anything No, no No twice a year maybe I mean it's just but it's something like it spirals down this this trail where it starts out so it's so silly and then we just both get kind of like I'm not going to apologize well I'm not going to apologize and you should be the one to apologize and it's at one point at a certain point it's like what in the world are we doing

do over we're not even going to talk about this anymore you know that's a big one yeah and Gretchen like made that up in our marriage I don't know maybe a decade ago, decade ago, and it really is. I think that is a grace-filled response. Like the first time Gretchen never said, I have an idea. Basically what she was saying is, to use biblical terminology, is why don't we just grace each other, give each other a break, and let's just start this over.

And, I mean, I don't know if you were thinking about it all theologically, but just like Christ wiped our slate clean, then we're going to wipe the slate clean and just start over. I actually did get it from one of your youth talks. You used to talk about kickball, do you the worst. And so I kind of took that and, yeah. Yeah, I was talking about heaven and stuff, yeah.

Look at that. The reason I'm kind of giggling, look, I just preached it, and I listened to Rebecca say it, and I am the worst. I am the worst. Like, I know all the things you're saying, and I preach it, and I told you to do it,

and all of that. And I'm talking about the moment we get into it, I have to be right, and then another problem, I like to fight. Like, it is endearing to me. It is, and Gretchen, and I don't, you know what I mean. Like, I like robust dialogue.

You've been in meetings with me. I like to disagree. Yeah, you like to say your face looks weird. You have a problem with something someone's saying, yeah. Yeah, I enjoy that kind of stuff. And so, that can be a problem when you say that to your wife, you know. And the other thing that's really terrible, pray for Gretchen, I am a professional communicator that has been proud.

practicing this for a long time, and I know many Bible verses. And that what can make me a very effective communicator as the lead pastor of this church can be really difficult to argue with about something at home. And so one of the things that I have been working on that I'm not very good at, but I am conscious of that I just try to have this rule for myself is to not, as a pastor, as a professional communicator, use my words to box Gretchen in to a place where she can't win and have some theological backing just to prove myself right. And that is my tendency always. So when I'm trying to listen to understand, I just know in my head, am I answering questions or am I developing statements? That's how I know. Like if I'm listening to understand, in my head I'm saying,

what does that mean? She just said that and I'm not sure I know what that means versus oh I know what I'm going to say back to that and then I've got to be really careful man I become an archaeologist in one second like I just dig up something from back in the day as evidence to prove all my

rightness. So how do you fight against those things? Is it the discipline of okay I know that this is my tendency and here's something I need to fill it in or how can people fight against their fleshly reaction in conflict? professional?

Well, I think practice, for one, you can practice these concepts with all of your relationships. Everybody wants to be heard, whether it's in the workplace or at home. And so going into meetings or conversations with a parent or a sibling, and you just think, you know what, this conversation, I'm just going to listen

and ask follow-up questions. And I'm not going to give my opinion or my thoughts unless they're asked for. So that's another thing you can do is if your partner's sharing with you and you're really trying to listen to understand, ask permission to give your input. Ask permission.

Do they want to hear your side of things and what you have to say? That kind of slows things down and paces things out. That's good. And this is a great follow-up question. As you mentioned, you like to fight. And so there are different fighting styles.

There are people who grew up in households where they yelled. We heard it in the bumper video this weekend with our elder Glenn and his wife Joy. She's like, I grew up, where I said what she need to say, and then we move on. He grew up, never knowing his parents

ever had an argument I had to tell him after 40 years, right? And so the question is, what do you do if you have different fighting styles? Change your style. We can change. God will change us and sanctify us and mold us into the partner that he wants us to be, but that our spouse needs. So we can put on 1st Corinthians 13, patience and kindness and humbleness and gentleness and self-control. And if our partner is averse to yelling or if our partner is, doesn't particularly like to argue, we can downshift and learn a new style. We can slow things down. We can listen better. We can change. So I would say if your styles aren't the same, change your style, especially if one person has a style that makes the other person want to back

away. You don't ever want to do something that makes your partner want to run away from you. That's not very unifying. So change your style, change the way you're approaching things so that it draws your partner in and doesn't push them away. It's really good. Gretchen has told me a lot about tone. It's not necessarily what I'm saying, but the way I say it. And again, I can be aggressive.

And what I've been trained in and what works so well here has the opposite effect at home. And I don't feel like I'm coming across super aggressive, but I think it's Proverbs 151 says a gentle word turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger. And so sometimes it's not the thing you're saying.

It's just the tone in which you say it. And you can change your tone. You can be... Absolutely. You know, you can be aware of that. Yeah, that's great. Rebecca, what is some advice on the topic of your words have so much power? You talked about this a lot in your sermon.

They can either build up or tear down. Rebecca, what's some advice you could offer for people who maybe have trouble controlling their words with one another? Yeah, so you really have to get aware of what's happening inside of you when those really harsh words come out. Because usually what's happening is you're escalated, you're seeing red, anxiety or anger is rising up in you because either you're not able to get through or they're not seeing it your way or you're feeling attacked. And sometimes it's important to take a couple deep breaths and bring your heart rate down. So when we're emotionally escalated, when we're seeing red, when we have high emotion, logic, tends to go away. That's just a physiological response to danger. And so when you're in a fight,

your brain's telling you, danger, danger. You guys are disconnected, and that's a dangerous place for us to be as disconnected from our partner. So you really have to take a moment to bring emotion down to de-escalate a bit, whether that's taking a deep breath, taking a lap around the block, and coming back to the conversation a little more level-headed where emotion and logic are a little bit more balanced. I don't want emotion to go totally away, but it can't rule the day and you can't make decisions and speak out of emotion. So when you feel yourself in that place, you have to learn by practice to learn how to regulate your emotion and bring that a little bit lower so that you can speak again. That's great. Okay, so we have a couple scenarios. The first scenario is a husband and wife

are fighting about a big topic. So maybe do we want to have kids? Where are they going to go to school? where are we going to live? Big topic. They both share their point of views and still disagree. They are now at a stalemate. What do they do? Is it okay to agree to disagree

or how can they move forward and come to a decision together? We'll do Pastor Jobi and then Rebecca. The Bible says, wives submit to your husbands and husbands love your wives. So I think it's that kind of combination. That she says,

this is what I think we should do, but God has appointed you as the head of our house. And then he takes that information, and what you do with people that you love is you sacrifice your own, your own subjective, personal favorite things or whatever for the sake of the one that you love. So it reminds me years ago, Reagan was little, one or two or something, and her toenail got knocked off or injured at church. And then Gretchen and I were supposed to lead a mission trip, like maybe three weeks following. And the doctor said that nail is probably going to fall off while y'all,

on the mission trip. And Gretchen said, I don't want to go. And I was like, you need to go. This is the devil trying to stop you from achieving the Great Commission. And that's fear. And you don't have the spirit of fear. I had Bible verses for it all, right? See, two questions ago. Totally. So we fight about it and fight about it and fight about it. And I was like, you're just being afraid. And she's like, you know, all her mom instincts kick in. And so then we mutually decided, I said, how about this? I'll pray about it and pray what's best for our family. The next day, it was a Monday. I was in the woods right in a sermon. And I get a text from

Gretchen that said something to the effect of, I know you're in the woods, I know you're praying for our family, I know God speaks to you, and I trust that he speaks through you. Then she said, whatever you decide, I know will be best for our family. Don't be surprised if I have some emotion either way, but I know you're for us. Something to that effect. When I got that, everything shifted. I mean, I was praying for it for sure and trying to figure out what was best for our family. And so then I came home and said, all right, last piece of input I need, what do you think we should do? And she said, I think we should stay home.

I think she should stay home. And I said, all right, I have decided, and it's from the Lord. You're staying home. Now, I literally wasn't just going with it. It really was. It's legit, man. Yeah. It really was us mutually submitting to one another. That's different than trying to, like, win the argument.

For sure. You know? So, whatever, that, a version of that, for whatever that specific. topic is would be my suggestion. Crouching man. And seriously, that is an invitation to lead. That is. But when you do that, what it makes your husband,

if you have a Jesus following spirit-filled husband, what he ought to want to do then is then leverage, like Jesus did in John chapter 13. He says the Bible, the Bible says that he knew all authority had been put under him and his hour has come. And so he got it from the table to show his disciples the full extent of his love. He dresses himself as a servant and washes her feet. that's what husbands are supposed to do.

Yeah. And I love that she came at it, I know you're talking to the Lord. Like, I know you're making this decision, not in your own flesh. You're talking to the Lord about it. And I'm still going to have emotion either way, which is okay.

That was really wise to, like, point out that if she cries, I didn't mess up. Right. Yeah, so good. Rebecca, what can you offer us? It's hard to follow that. That's really excellent. So I would add maybe just a couple nuggets for the conversation.

part of leading up to the decision. One thing I tell couples is to ask themselves, what part of my partner's request can I honor? So if you have two different opinions on how to handle something, is there a part of that request that is the most important to them? Maybe it's something that they ultimately really need, right? When there's a big decision, like we think this should happen and our partner thinks this should happen,

but ultimately, if you boil it down, there's something that you each need in the resolution. of this decision. And it might not be exactly like one person sees it. It might be a bit of a compromise. But when you come at it from, how can I meet a need or what part of my partner's request can I honor, then you're not just thinking in terms of what you think and what you want, but you're considering the other person as well.

And I think ultimately, if you're still at a stalemate, you get to this place where, you know, when our husbands listen to us, it's much easier to submit to them. And so that's a beautiful picture, to me, of what submission ultimately looks like and trusting our husbands to make the best decision for our family. But that process leading up to that decision is really important too, because if you do it that way, if you listen and honor one another, then when you get to the decision, you don't feel like you've lost. You feel like you're united and you've grown through that conflict.

Yeah. And then if you get to the point, we talked about this a little bit before the show, it's okay to get professional help, right? Yeah, I was going to say, and if you're still at a stalemate, go see Rebecca. Yeah, I was going to say, this is what keeps Rebecca doing what she does. For sure. Yeah. Okay, the next scenario is for our military families, but I think it applies to many families.

It says, my husband's in the Navy and has been deployed for months at a time and is about to leave for a nine-month deployment. We also have an 11-month-old baby. We have issues that we've been trying to resolve, but they keep being swept under the rug and put on hold when he's gone. When he's here, we want to spend most of our time playing catch-up and focusing on our son. What do you think is the best way for us to handle this? I don't think we have enough time to really work on things before he leaves, but I hate the thought of waiting almost a year from now to do anything. So really, I think what they're asking is, if there's something hard to bring up that we know is going to become a big argument, what is the best way someone can do that without it, ruining the time that they have together?

Rebecca, you can go first with this one. Yeah, for sure. One, I would say you haven't been married that long, and I want to applaud you for wanting to not wait so long and wanting to work out these problems. I see lots of military families that can go decades without really working through their problems, and then retirement comes, and they're like,

there's a hill of problems that they haven't dealt with. So first, I think that's great. Two, I think that there's a lot you can do during deployment that may not be resolving those issues, but it could be strengthening your marriage so that when you're back together, you can do some really pointed work on resolving those issues. And when you bring up those issues, I use something that I like to call gentle startup. So we've talked about tone today and how that impacts your partner and being able to move in or move out of conflict with you.

and gentle startup, Pastor Joby talks about this. It's really speaking from the eye position. It's saying, I feel this way about this thing, and I need you to hear me. And it's not coming on the attack, and you did this and you did that, and it's really sharing how your partner or whatever the situation is has impacted you, emotionally, spiritually, mentally, relationally, and being able to describe how you feel about the situation. That will keep your partner in instead of feeling defensive because you've just attacked them. Gretchen, in general for couples, if there's something hard that they want to bring up, what advice could you offer in the best way that they can do that? I think if you bring it up in a gentle way, I mean, a lot of times you're already

frustrated or angry about a situation before you even bring it up. your tendency is to bring it up with like high emotion, um, high anger and your heart's beating fast. And so really, I like to go to bed angry. Because, me too.

Me too. He too. He too. He doesn't. He doesn't. He doesn't. I love it because the next morning I wake up and I can, I'm like, that most of the time, that's, that was stupid or, or, and I'm not as angry.

And I feel like I can come to him. at a more gentle pace, if you will. And so, yeah, just, I think that you have to be careful and not storm or bombard him or her with what you're coming at them with, because that's huge. I mean, first impressions, of course, are the biggest. And so in a fight, that's the case too, I think.

Like when I come at him super angry and aggressive, what's his reaction to me going to be? Mostly love and gentleness. Obviously. But you do an awesome job at picking the right time and you'll say, I guess the way you're saying it, it's a total just invitation. She'll say, like, we'll have enough time.

When it's time for her to go bed, she's going to bed. So she does not be like 8.45. Let's talk about something important. It's like the kids are at students and it's 5.30 and that's when she brings it up. But she will say, I've been really thinking about something. Can you sit down right here? I just want you to hear me out. She'll do these kind of like, she gives me clues and cues that this is going to be.

And also, I can be like pretty emotional and real reactive. And so she knows that and almost kind of warns me. I'm not trying to offend you. I'm not, you know what I mean? And so I get enough, like preamble that I'm like, all right, come on, be the guy that you preach that you should be all the time. And that verse... This is very learned over the years for me.

I did not use to do that. I used to come at it. It was more like... It was kind of that thing, so I don't like cats. I mean, it was, yeah, and so for me... That's why you don't like cats. I've learned his reaction, and I don't like it. and I've found switching it to, you know, the more gentle approach, his reaction is way, you know, more inviting and we actually have a conversation.

And I don't just leave the room, because that's what I do. I don't, I hate to argue, and I just leave the room and he follows me everywhere because he's going to finish this conversation. And that's being a student of your spouse. Totally. You know, learning how to get through to them, how to connect with them, even in an argument. And I think that's the beauty of being married is when you go through these things and you learn how to how to navigate conflict together, you come out more bonded on the other side of every conflict. And it goes back to what you said earlier, how your fighting cell can change. That's not who you are. You need to learn your spouse and be sanctified through even how you handle conflict. Yeah, for sure.

So this verse has come up a few times. Some people have mentioned it about going to bed angry. That comes from a verse that says, don't let the sun go down on your anger, lest you get. the enemy a foothold. Okay. It does not say don't let that don't go to sleep. It says let the sun go down. So that's 6.30 right now.

Not 9.30. So that's not what it means. It doesn't mean. It means don't let this season set with unresolved conflict. Because in that unresolved conflict in this season of your life, you'll have that big mountain

of unresolved conflict one day, like when the kids leave. That's what that means. So you keep very short accounts and you deal with those things in this season. There are some problems and conflicts that need to be resolved that cannot be resolved in the time the sun is up. But don't let a season go by in your marriage where there is still anger getting free rent in your relationship. Yeah, that's so good. So our last question, usually we ask this to Pastor Jobb, but since we have our expert here, the pro,

And do we have to pay you for this? Do you want to bill? Yeah, this is on the, yeah, this bill all the time. Sure. So we usually ask some version of this question, where can couples start? For those couples who have really struggled, whether they're conflict of women or they're incredibly aggressive in conflict, where can they start after hearing all of this today moving forward in healthy conflict?

So I think you can start with kind of taking some of these tips that we've mentioned. These are solid things that you can put into practice, like go listen to this again and write them down. and sit down with your partner and the list of tips and try those, right? And if you still find yourself in a conflict cycle where it's kind of the same pattern every time and you're just really having trouble getting out of it with some of these skills, then I think that's time to speak to a professional. Because a professional marriage counselor is going to help you dissect that cycle

and understand the emotions that are driving it and then give you the steps in the therapy room help you to get out of that into a better pattern of conflict. And I think that the earlier in your marriage you do that, the more effective that is. When you recognize, oh, we've got a thing going on here and we do the same lap every time. So let's go work on this. Don't wait 10, 15, 20 years down the road when you're so firmly planted in your own way that it's difficult to get out of it. of it. And a lot of the times when you've been doing it for a long time, you're just exhausted and you don't want to work on it anymore. Right. Yeah. Well, thank you so much seriously for being here.

Your knowledge and wisdom I know is helping so many people at home. And we just love that you're a part of our church family. And since Rebecca's here, I just want to say to the folks watching, I don't know if there's still a stigma about seeking mental health and counselors and all that. But you have not lost. You have not thrown in the towel. The principal, in Matthew 18. That's primarily about when people sin against one another. But ultimately, if those two people cannot work it out in and of themselves, the Bible says go and seek someone else. And so if you need help in your marriage, you should get help. For sure, you could talk to a pastor, but also there are some mental health professionals that have a biblical worldview,

which is very, very important, in my opinion, that we would be happy to refer you to. Rebecca, for sure is top of the list, but there are some other really good ones that are members of our church and it is a step in the right direction. And you are trusting God when you go and see a pro because God has anointed and appointed and acquit folks like Rebecca to help folks like us. Totally. Pastor Jobi and Gretchen, thank you for all of your amazing wisdom. And I love hearing. I know everyone else loves hearing just your stories and your marriage. And it's just such an inspiration to many of us. So thank you. And thank you to all of you at home for joining us. I hope you and your spouse are able to work through the hard things in a way that serves and honors one another.

Next week, we'll be right back here with one of our amazing elders and his wife to talk about how we can grow old in love. You don't want to miss it. Have a great week, too.