The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Abigail Shrier - Bad Therapy: Why the Kids Aren't Growing Up

Episode Date: April 15, 2024

Abigail Shrier is the New York Times bestselling author of Bad Therapy: Why the Kids Aren't Growing Up.

This is Live from the Table, the official podcast of the world-famous comedy seller coming at you on SiriusXM 99 Raw Comedy and available as a podcast. This is Live from the Table, the official podcast of the world-famous comedy cellar, coming at you on SiriusXM 99 Raw Comedy, and available as a podcast. We're also available on YouTube for those who want a multimedia experience and to see our beautiful faces, some arguably more beautiful than others. This is Dan Natterman here with Noam Dorman, owner of the comedy cellar, and with us, as usual, and via the miracle of teleconferencing, the wonders of the 21st century, we have Abigail Schreier, author of Bad Therapy,

Why the Kids Aren't Growing Up. Abigail Schreier received the Barbara Olson Award for Excellence and Independence in Journalism in 2021. Her best-selling book, Irreversible Damage, The Transgender Cray, Seducing Our Daughters, was named a best book by The Economist and The Times of London. Welcome to our podcast, Abigail. I know your schedule is busy. We thank you for making time for us. It's great to be here.

Thanks so much for having me on. All right, first of all, I'm very excited. I think this book, Bad Therapy, might be the greatest nonfiction book I've ever read in my life. But what about The Only Bush I Trust is My Own by Perry Lesher? And as opposed to that, Perry has written the book. So first of all, I have never finished a nonfiction book.

Usually, as I've said on this show, usually one third to one half of the way through a nonfiction book, I've gotten everything I need to get out of that book. Everything is repetitious at that point. And usually there's been, you know, I've given it a little bit extra that I even had to. I realized I could have stopped sooner. This book ended.

And I said, wait a second. You want more? It's done. That's it. It's just, and of course, it says everything about therapy and about child rearing that I've been fighting with you guys about for like five six years now I'm I I am so anti-therapy and and for many of the reasons that

that you say so so welcome to our show and thank you for doing the show oh thanks so much for having me on you know I am so glad to hear that because I I I hate being bored and I try to make sure my readers are never bored. So that's one thing I really aim for. So I'm really glad you enjoyed it. Absolutely, and that's the right attitude of our writer. And I was gonna say one other thing about me and then I'll rest and talk to you.

This is what I always tell people. I say, listen, if I got hired as a bartender, you'd know in five seconds that I don't know how to make drinks. If you call me as a plumber, you say, this guy doesn't know how to fix the toilet. But if I put on a suit and I said, I'm a therapist, you would come to

see me for ten years, you would never know I wasn't a therapist, and you'd say I did a great job. I said, there's nothing scientific about this at all, and I don't believe it works. And we had a big argument about Bruce Springsteen. We should bring that up again. What is Bruce? Oh, okay. That was a year ago.

We had that. So, so what I did here is I did, I, I, I read on Kindle now and I, and I highlighted some passages and maybe I can just read you some of my favorite passages from the book and that can be your way of getting into the book. What do you say? Let's do it. Okay. Therapy can lead a client to understand herself as sick and rearrange her self-understanding around a diagnosis.

Therapy can encourage family estrangement, coming to realize that it's all mom's fault and you never want to see her again. Therapy can exacerbate marital stress, compromise a patient's resilience, render a patient more traumatized, more depressed, and undermine her self-efficacy so she's less able to turn her life around. Take it. Well, I mean, these are the known harms of therapy, and they also happen to be what we're seeing in the rising generation, which is completely awash in therapy. Look, kids face even more potential of risk from therapy. Why? Because they don't have any life experience. They don't know what they were like before because they're always a work in progress by definition. So it's very hard for them to have any ability to say,

listen, I'm angry with my mom because I'm 14 years old, but I wouldn't call her emotionally abusive. A 14-year-old girl's not going to say that. But what we're seeing in the rising generation is exactly what we'd expect of an over-therapized generation with way too much psych meds and way too much diagnosis. They have a lot of increased anxiety, increased depression, a sense of inefficacy like they can't do for themselves,

and a lot more alienation from their families. And there's also demoralization, feeling limited by their diagnoses. These are all common side effects of therapy. And they're getting it from school, they're getting it from parents, and they're getting it from therapists in their office. Jonathan Haidt was on our show, and he blames a lot of the anxiety in the current generation on social media. Yeah. But I suspect he would disagree with you that therapy is the problem. Well, look, do I wish it was all the phones? Of course. I mean, gosh, don't we all hate big tech? Doesn't everyone? It's the most bipartisan issue. So I'm not going to make anybody angry by saying that. And let's be honest, the social media is terrible. It's terrible for kids out of the classrooms. I think that's a no-brainer.

But do I think we can blame everything on the tech? No, I don't. Let me give you one statistic, although I have a few, but I'll give you just one. 2016, the CDC came out with a report. One in six American children between the ages of two and eight, little kids between the ages of two and eight, already had a mental health or behavioral diagnosis. Those kids were not on social media. They weren't.

They're not on it now, but they definitely weren't in 2016. And you think that it's just a wacky diagnosis or is there something different about the way those kids are acting than they would have acted in the 30s, let's say? I think that we're training an entire generation to consider themselves ill. And so they are manifesting symptoms of being ill. We are teaching them to think of themselves as mentally unwell. And so they are begging for mental health days off of work. We have basically

treated them as if they are mentally ill. And so they respond that way. You know, when I was a kid, my parents, and you have something about this in the book about the way these kids are asked to draw pictures. My parents divorced when I was like five years old. And that's the drawing story. And honestly, I don't remember being particularly traumatized by it. I really don't remember it. I mean, I know I was upset about it, but I don't remember, you know, being overcome with grief about it. I really don't remember it. I mean, I know I was upset about it, but I don't remember being overcome with grief about it. I understood my parents loved me. I never blamed myself. They say, you don't blame yourself, do you? I'm like, no, I understand. I see you fighting. But for some reason, they took me to see a child psychologist. And the first thing the child

psychologist wanted me to do was draw a picture. I'm like, what do you want me to draw? Well, just draw anything. And I'm like, and I remember saying, I'm not drawing anything. Like, they talked to me like I was an idiot, like I wasn't old enough to understand that whatever I drew, this was going to be meaningful and they were going to judge me on it.

And I went to like three or four sessions and I would not draw a picture. And finally, my father, who was very antitherapeutic, he says, fuck this. We're not going anymore. And so I went to four sessions or five sessions. All I did was play Chinese checkers. But I was very, very... So what it left me with is this kind of notion that the therapist was so naive. She thought that as to the fact that the kids understand what's going on and they know that they are expected to give certain responses. They know that their responses will be judged. I was smart, but I wasn't a genius. I don't know.

You know what, though? We're really socially smart. I mean, all human beings are. And of course, we know what the therapist is pushing for. And you know what? A child not wanting to talk about the most intimate, painful details of their life with a therapist is pushing for. And you know what? A child not wanting to talk about the most intimate, painful details of their life with a stranger is actually normal. But we treat it as abnormal. We let them know there's something wrong with you if you don't want to open up to this perfect stranger once a week about your parents and your bad feelings. And then they, of course, do their work, sometimes with the best of intentions, introducing the idea that you've been traumatized. And by the way, there's really good evidence that letting a kid know they've been traumatized in various ways

by treating it as a significant occurrence, whatever the potentially traumatic experience, that has more to do with whether they suffer adult psychopathology than whatever occurred. So whatever kids go through, treating them as traumatized is a really good way to guarantee that they will be. Do you see any place for therapy? Do you make any, is there any asterisk next to your? It's really simple. I think therapy is for people who need it, but most importantly, it's for kids who need it, kids you can't stabilize without it. And for them, it can be life-saving. The problem... Look, adults can go to therapy for any reason they want, and it's up to them.

And if they're getting something out of it, great. And if they're not, they'll leave, and that's up to them. The problem is, with children, It's totally unsupervised. There are all these risks of harms, things that can be made worse. Kids have no way of telling if their anxiety is made worse. No one is tracking it. And we're treating the well. We're treating kids who don't have a real problem.

So we're only exposing them to risk. They don't stand to benefit. So what number would you say? Hi, Abigail. problem. So we're only exposing them to risk. They don't stand to benefit. So what number would you say? Hi, Abigail. What number would you say would be more accurate than the statistic that astronomical number you threw out in the beginning that of kids two to eight who are not on social media that I think it was like one in six. Is that what you said? Yeah. What mental health or behavioral diagnosis? So I don't know. I guess it was like one in six. Is that what you said? Yeah. What mental health or behavioral diagnosis? So I don't know. I guess it would depend on what we were talking about

for a diagnosis. But, you know, put it this way. It shouldn't be that normal, you know, meaning the majority of people are statistically normal means to have a mental disorder. There's something wrong with our definitions. But, you know, sometimes normal is is unhealthy. High blood pressure exists in roughly 50 percent of adults and that's unhealthy. So it is possible for normal to be abnormal in a sense.

Yes. But first of all, there are biomarkers for that. Objective measures, right? So that's very easy. That's measurable. That we know and we know how to treat. And we can measure that it's getting better. But when we do go in, and the research psychologists who have done these studies, when they do research kids, for instance, who are supposed to, and adults, traumatic events or potentially traumatic events, what they find time and again is that left alone, the norm is actually resilience. Most even combat soldiers

won't exhibit PTSD. We're a phenomenally resilient species. And that's why we're still here, actually. I mean, we've all gone through, every one of our family histories is marked by all kinds of privation and famine and loss of parents, loss of siblings. And yet we went on and formed families and had stable adulthoods and held down jobs, all sorts of things that the that the rising generation doesn't feel up to. Now, you you even said somewhere in the book that you think depression may have an adaptive purpose, or you quote someone who thinks that. Well, I would imagine it has to.

If it exists, it has to have an adaptive purpose. Exactly, which doesn't mean that we should leave people with major depressive disorder untreated, of course. If you need the medication, if you need the therapy, by all means, get it. It can be life-saving. But, and here's what people need to know, is that depression, like anxiety, these are adaptive.

So there are uses to them. So if they haven't risen to the level of disorder, we don't want to go in and delete them. Explain how it was useful. I think Churchill and Lincoln were your examples. Yeah, exactly. So depression, evolutionary psychologists will tell you that depression exists to shut the system down so that you can think about what went wrong and prepare to make a change without doing anything rash. It basically it makes you inactive for a period so that you can think about your life and make a change. And I think this point was best made by a wonderful psychologist I interviewed named Paul Andrews, whose partner was

a research partner, was a psychiatrist. And a patient had come to the psychiatrist and she said, I want to get off these antidepressants. And he said to her, why are they not working? She said, no, they were great. He said, why do you want to get off them? She said, because I'm married to the same alcoholic jerk. And what she's saying is I off them? She said, because I'm married to the same alcoholic jerk. And what she's saying is I needed to fix my life, but I don't have the will to do it. Zombified on this medication. Get me off of it.

And so I can make the changes I need to make. Because sometimes depression is rational. Have you ever tried any of those mood fixing drugs to see what people are experiencing? It's a good question. Maybe I should have. But no, although many people close to me, of course, have been on all kinds of antidepressants and whatnot,

I have not ever been on an antidepressant. So no, I'm just a step in there. The literature suggests that these drugs don't work on people with mild depression or that aren't depressed. It's not a euphoric drug. But what does Effexor do? It's an antidepressant. That's what antidepressant is.

But if somebody like Abigail took it, it's not going to get you high. No, I understand. So she wouldn't respond to it in any way. But by the way, dancing would do a lot more for me, according to the most recent studies, because dancing and in fact, any exercise, but especially dancing has more impact on mild to moderate depression than antidepressants or psychotherapy. They've measured this.

Yeah, I've always felt and I've had experiences on my life, actually. I won't take the time now, which had surprised me and indicated to me beyond a reasonable doubt that there is a subconscious and there are things going on in my mind that I'm not aware about because they've they've burst forward in me with emotions at times in a way that obviously there was other processes going on that I didn't understand. However, I've always had this feeling that when people want to talk about things that are bothering me and I say, I don't want to talk about it. I want to not think about it. I think it's healthier. And what I discovered, one time I was having a very, very stressful period of my life.

And there was this bar around the corner and it had this old arcade machine, like a video arcade machine. And it had this game, it was like a math game. And you you had to, you know, it's just a coming up with totals, or I forget exactly how it worked. But I noticed that when I was playing this game, it crowded out everything else that I could be thinking about, because I had to answer instantly. And this did me tremendous amount of good, I could go there for an hour and play this game.

And afterwards, I really did feel like no therapy could have given me that relief for an hour because it was not possible to think about anything else. And from there, I've just always thought that ruminating, I'd seen it over and over, it would just make people worse. That's just always what I felt. I mean, it depends on the person, right? There are certainly- My wife I'm talking about.

I mean, look, but it's true. Not everyone is helped by focusing on their problems and rehashing them. That's just a myth. And plenty of people do better by putting their problems or their past to one side and moving on. And that doesn't invalidate the experience of someone who feels like they needed to talk about something. But there is a point at which talking about and rehashing a bad memory becomes pathological.

It's the number one symptom of depression. So and unfortunately, a wonderful doctor pointed this out to me, a mental health physician in England who works with, you know, ex-convicts in Plymouth who went through horrific things as kids. And he said not every I mean, he deals with people who have suffered severe childhood trauma. And he says not everyone is helped by rehashing it. Sometimes that is counterproductive. Sometimes people know what they need and sometimes not talking about it is good for them. I've discovered recently the miracle of caffeine as an as a short term, but I find quite effective mood booster. Now, do you have any comment on caffeine? I don't accept that. I love it.

So we had a big fight on this podcast. I know we get to get more to kids where Bruce Springsteen. What was it, Dan, in his in his autobiography he when he turned 60 he was feeling really depressed and i remember in the book no one has no sympathy for him but but in the book uh he mentioned i what struck me is he mentioned how am i gonna how am i gonna make a living you're bruce springsteen i mean a 60 year old bruce springsteen must have been worth hundreds of millions of dollars and yet he's writing in his book how How Am I Going to Make a Living? Anyway, but that's the side. That was not the subject of my debate with Noam.

Noam believes that Springsteen deserves no sympathy for feeling depressed because he's Bruce Springsteen. I don't remember that being the part you told, but what I got from it was Bruce Springsteen was was so lack lacked such self-awareness that he's writing about how he's depressed and his life was hard and this indicated he didn't say his life was hard he was said he was depressed well are you and then he did add that how am i going to make a living which i thought was and this indicated to me such narcissism where everybody just surrounding him and he feels that he could talk about how

depressed and i felt like the best thing somebody could do was say, shut up, what the hell's the matter with you? You're rich and famous. And I said at the time, now, if you have an actual illness, go get some medication or something like that. But I think that the worst, I mean, I don't know this,

which is coming to me off the top of my head, but the combination of narcissism, where you're all about yourself, and therapy, where they encourage you're all about yourself, and therapy, where they encourage you to talk about yourself, this is a difficult thing to untangle here. And it just seemed to me that Bruce Springsteen was indulging himself.

Nothing feels better than that. Why do you feel he was indulging himself, rather than the fact that maybe he really was clinically depressed? Did he write in the book that he got some... Yeah, I think he said he went to therapy. I don't know that he mentioned antidepressants or not. By the way, this is... Let the record show Dan is changing the history here.

No, no, no. This is the most insane position to take on Bruce Springsteen. Like that somehow because you're so wealthy and so successful that you couldn't actually be suffering. You can be, but Dan at the time gave us the details. Listen, I didn't give you many details. I just said he was very depressed. I take him at his word. I totally agree with her. Of course, you can be depressed. Thank you, Abigail. Totally. I didn't say you can't be depressed. Well, I don't someone I'm not someone who believes that only certain people are entitled to feel terrible. Anybody can feel terrible for

any number of reasons. And sometimes that feeling terrible amounts to depression. OK, it becomes so severe and of a such a, you know, serious level that it's depression, even if life is objectively great. In fact, I might argue that that's the definition of depression right getting sad and in response to normal you know ups and downs of life that's not depression it's when everything's going right and you still you just feel awful and it's and it's so severe that you can't function now that starts to look like something that, you know, could be serious depression. Abigail, I have to say one thing. There you go. As typical as Perrielle, she gets it almost right.

I never said he wasn't depressed. What I said was the best thing that anybody could do for him is to say, get over yourself. You're rich and famous. If you're sick, go to a doctor. He did go to the doctor. Who said he didn't go to the doctor? I'm sure that he's surrounded by people who are so solicitous of him

that it encourages him to really lean into this and instead of feeling better, I predict that he would only feel worse. That's what I say. I think it's almost my exact words. All right, okay, look. I know we have some common friends

and they tell me that you are the most awesome mother. That the way you raise your kids is just like somebody should do a documentary. I don't know about that. No, that's not true. What is- I can know. She's blushing.

What is it, what do you do to raise your kids? First of all, how many kids do you have? What's the story? I have three kids, but I'm not the most awesome mother. I'm really not. I do my best. We'll see. Talk to me in 20 years, and I'll let you know how they turned out.

Do they have screens? No, they don't. And how old is the oldest one? You don't have to- 13. 13. 13 and 11. And they still don't have screens? They still don't. And how old is the oldest one? You don't have to- 13. 13. 13 and 11. And they still don't have screens?

They still don't have screens. And does that put social pressure on them with their friends? Yes. And mommy, but everybody has one. What do you do to that? Yeah. They know it doesn't work. It doesn't work.

What does that mean they don't have screens? They're obviously on the computer. They don't have phones. They don't have phones. The computer. And do they have iPads? No. No. No.

But I have to give them access to these, you know, computer because everything in school is built into the computer and it's hard. Look, do they insert, you know, chat functions on the computers so that they can talk to their friends? Yes. You know, do I have problems limiting their screen time? Absolutely.

I mean, it's not a fail safe. There are parents who've done a much better job than I have. You know, I just sort of don't give them stuff that I think is really bad for them. What's the stuff that's really bad? Is it the social media phones? But is it the social media or the texting or everything? I tend to think all of it is is pretty bad. Obviously, the open internet is probably the worst video games, you know? So Snapchat look, are they supposed to know,

do I give them a console? No. Do they still manage to play? Yes. I mean, I, it's not perfect. No,

that doesn't, but that's, but no, but that's pretty good because it is long. I mean, it doesn't have to be zero. It has to just be below the threshold where it's bad for them. Right. Look,

when it comes to technology i wish we could go back in time now not with everything with parenting and not with everything with mental health but when it comes to technology i generally think that time in the real world is way better for kids than time online so do i wish i could delete it all yeah for my kids i do do you subscribe to it jonathan height said that like at 15 I do do you subscribe to what Jonathan Haidt said that like at 15 16 like do you think you're going to allow that or is this like uh as zero as long as humanly possible I guess zero as long as humanly possible but I don't know and I also don't feel like I need other parents to go along with it you know know, I just don't, I don't see the collective action

problem. Now, is it a problem? Yes. And I I'm behind him a hundred percent and I hope he's successful, but do I see it as a collective action problem? Do I feel like I need the permission of other parents to do what's right for my kids? No. So, so cause I need to know exactly how to do this. So one of the things that are good about phones is that when I let my daughter walk around the neighborhood by herself or walk around Manhattan, I can see where she is. You, you, do you, are you like a Lenore Skenazy? You let your kids go free range and you, and you just cross your fingers like the old days when they're back, they're back. How do you track them? Look a little bit. I am a little bit more like Lenore Skenazy, but I have to say,

look, I also know i have twin boys for one thing so they were always a pack so it's much easier for me so what do i what would i advise for others i don't know use your judgment whatever is best but definitely enabling them to you know get a get a sense of their surroundings and navigate the neighborhood is a really good thing and it makes them stronger because they know how to handle themselves. So I live in L.A. It's a dangerous city. I mean, you know, we have crazy people all around. So I'm, you know, I'm very aware of the dangers.

I try to let them, you know, romp around as much as I can and doesn't make me crazy. Yeah, I don't like it, but I think that there are dangers to not letting them. What is your nuclear-level punishment for a kid who does something really bad in your house? Oh, what a good question. What is it? I probably don't have a good one. So far, it's mostly sending them to their room.

But I'm trying to think of, like, what's the worst punishment? It's probably that they couldn't go to something they sending them to their room. But I'm trying to think of, like, what's the worst punishment? It's probably that they couldn't go to something they really wanted to go to. And do you stick to it? Um, it's so infrequent. I would have to think about it. I mean, my husband is much better

at enforcing these things than I am. So I'm, like, I guess in some ways more hardcore, but he'll stick to something, which is good. Because I'm a mom. I want to cave, even though I know the best thing is not to cave. When I was little, like 1978 or 1979, I was in high school. My father, because I was a pretty good kid, so it's not like he had that much reason to punish me.

But whenever he would punish me, he would always give in. He would always give in, always give in. He was very soft-hearted. And then one time I got a bad report card and i had lied about i think i didn't bring home the report card i tried to hide it or something and i was supposed to go see the rolling stones in 1979 and my father said no i'm no i'm this time i have to stick to it you're not going to see the rolling stones and you know what i said to him but daddy this is probably the last time they'll ever tour i remember it's the last because they were already there were nine almost ten years past

the beatles right this is the last time that i was crying the last time they'll ever tour what album i didn't get to go what album was out at that time? Maybe Miss You. Some Girls, maybe that was around then. It was around that disco. Yeah, that was closing in on their last big hit, I think. I mean, maybe 83 or 84, waiting on a friend. But I mean, it's getting toward the end.

Listen, I want to say something, and then I have some other stuff I want to ask you. My theory of child rearing has been, not that my kids are, not that they're perfect, that's for sure, has been that I think that physical affection is very, very, very important. I notice that, I have one son who's very temperamental, and I'm hard on him. I am hard on him. I feel I have to be hard on him. But I feel like that I mitigate that by laying down with him in bed.

He still comes to lay down with me at night sometimes. I give him a lot of love, and I think that is a non, as a, it's nonverbal, but it's, it's, it, it, it communicates love and security in a primitive way that I don't think there's any replacement for. And I think that kids who don't have that probably really suffer from that. You agree with that? I, I would say that, you know, to some extent, some forms of affection, but we're really culturally different in this way. I mean, if you look across cultures, I mean, look, I'm, you know, an Ashkenazi Jew. We tend to be very affectionate. So, of course, I'm very affectionate with the kids.

And that's what I'm used to. And that's sort of our definition of love. I mean, it's very much baked in. So it's part of the expectations of my kids but i imagine if i came from a different culture and and some cultures are a lot less you know physically affectionate and i don't think that's necessarily traumatic or harmful i mean you know you know depending on what you're talking about but i don't think it's necessarily traumatic i i think that kids need authority kids need basic rules kids need stability um but they don't, you know, they don't, you know, then there's the fun stuff that we like. And physical affection with your kids feels good.

I mean, physical closeness feels good. I don't know how much of it they actually need. This, by the way, is news to me that Ashkenazi Jews are known for physical affection. Is that based on your experience or more general? For the lovable kids. It's based on my experience. I don't know that I've ever run into Jews that I know without giving them a kiss. I don't know.

I'm just used to that. And I tend to think that Jews are a little more kissy than most. But I don't know. I could be wrong. Let me read a couple more things. And by the way, another reason this book is so good is because it takes side lights and little snipes at political correctness, at cancel culture, at wokeness.

I mean, you can, you know, there's little jabs at a lot of the issues of the day. One of them, I don't know if I tweeted you out from our Comedy Teller account. She writes, Humor is among the psyche's most natural defensers. It's censorship. It's censorship that requires policing. If you want to stifle humor, you must create rules and enforce them.

Otherwise, we humans laugh and poke fun at just about everything. This was fucking genius to me. This was like the most concise version of what it is that we've all been trying to say. It's the most natural thing to joke about anything. It's only you scolds who are trying to turn, it's like, make us into the problem.

You're the problem. So I don't, I, I, I'll let her comment on it. It's okay. And it's healthy. I mean, how good is it for us when we can laugh at things? All of a sudden our problems don't feel so bad, so big, right? I mean, it really is one of the soul's best resources and the psyche's best resources.

And we divest ourselves of this as a culture. We tell ourselves there are a whole set of endless series of things that are off limits. And it makes it much harder for us as a society to bounce back from setbacks. Well, and it's not, as you say, from, you know, setbacks. Well, and, and, and it's not, as you say, and this actually goes to my theory about affection as well. It's not natural. We have to distort what comes naturally. I used to say this about people used to tell me, uh, not to comfort my baby, uh, when she, you know, like sleep training, like, why

would God make the baby cry and give the parent this huge impulse to comfort the baby if that's the wrong thing to do? That was like, like, this doesn't make sense to me. Why would they make it so natural for us to want to joke about things? Oh, no. Oh, that's not the right thing. There's many things like that. I don't want to lean into every instinct, but there's certain cultures which seem to have managed to suppress nice, natural urges that people have. Anyway. I do think there is a limit to what people will joke about. I mean, we all have I think pretty much everybody has certain things that certain topics that they they might find that they wouldn't personally find funny.

What being made fun of is different. that's not what we're talking about no i i think we do it on purpose like let me give you an example kibitzing is a huge part of you know what jews have done with their kids for generations and we're a pretty resilient group and i think the kibitzing is on purpose i think it's a natural feature of our culture that basically set with parents, you know, not even realizing it. But what were they doing? They were trying to toughen their kids up to being called names, being, you know, criticized, being attacked. I mean, they were saying here, let me give you a little dose of like a little shock to the system with a little bit of teasing. And you'll see that you're going to get stronger.

That's another thing we didn't do i mean you all the things that you're suggesting are intrinsic to ashkenazi culture is uh uh finding no echo in my experience well you grew up in canada but no i grew up in the connecticut oh okay whatever uh can i read it can i read another paragraph okay go ahead sure go for it i'll read one paragraph? Go ahead. Sure, go for it. I'll read another paragraph, and then I have one more thing. So we talked a little bit about this, but this I thought was just a brilliant – you're such a good writer. I don't know what your full – where that came from. You've just always been a great writer, but this is good writing, right?

Okay, hit it. And again, what I'm about to read, this is good advice for many, for much problem solving, by analogy, not just your mental issues. Proceed by subtraction. Clean the dirt out of the cut and the body heals itself. Until you subtracted environmental contaminants that may be hampering your kids, expert tech, monitoring, meddling, medicinal or otherwise,

you may not know how happy she is or could be. How do you know whether to put your 13-year-old in therapy? Simple. Don't take your kid to a shrink unless you've exhausted all other options. If you must sign your adolescent up for therapy, research the therapist as you would any surgeon. In all but the most serious cases, your child is much better off without them. In all but the direst circumstances, your child will benefit immeasurably from knowing you are in charge and that you don't think there's something wrong with her. Stop allowing interlopers to insert themselves

between you and your kids. And by the way, just to add to that, one of the reasons, so my son, I said, he's temperamental, and sometimes you think maybe you should take him to a therapist, you know? But one of the reasons I'm reluctant to, I don't want him to think I think there's something wrong with him.

Like, I can't imagine, that huge statement from the dad. I think you permanently make the child know that you think there's something really wrong with them, see if you can ride it out or see if you can make changes in the environment so that you don't need to make that statement to them. Exhaust all our other options instead of piling new layers on top of problems. This is...

Should we... Oh, sorry. No, no, I was just going to say, I don't know, does it mean that there's something, I think that there's something wrong with you if I take you to see a therapist? If I say to you, Perrielle, you need therapy, what does that say to you? Well, if you say it like that.

Perrielle, you need therapy. Also like that. Perrielle, you know I love you, but there's no way to say it. No, I don't know if that's true. How about Perrielle? I know a guy you, but there's no way to say it. No, I don't know if that's true. How about Perrielle? I know a guy. You got to see this guy. He's fantastic.

See? He's fantastic. I would say it like Jackie Mason. She wants to say something. Go ahead, Abigail. Perrielle, I think that's a great question, right? So is the problem just the stigmatization of therapy? What if we made it something totally normal and totally cool? Would

we get kids to go there without any stigma and they will just feel like it's just like a checkup or something? And I think in general, the answer is no, because kids are pretty smart and you're just not going to lay out $200 an hour or more unless there's a problem, right? Like they know that they're there because of a problem. And to be honest, they are. Because if you don't need to take them to this appointment, you're going to do a lot of other things that are way more fun than standing outside that office waiting for an hour. So you are giving them that message. And no matter how many times you say, I love you, you're perfect just the way you are, I just want to take you to the shrink, they get the message. And the message is, my mom thinks there's something wrong with me,

and I have to go talk to this other person who knows how to handle my problem. And that in and of itself, again, it's worth the risk if the child has a real problem that can't be handled otherwise. But if not, yeah, you don't want to. Abigail, what are we to make of your use of the she pronoun in the, you know what I mean? Like usually people, you say he when it's an unspecified, like you'll say, oh, your child, she might have a problem. Right.

Why do I use she? Yeah. Are you asking? I've always used it since college. I don't know. Instead of the he, sometimes I use the she Is it natural or are you making a statement of some sort? Oh I think it's natural at this point

I've been doing it since college Sometimes I play with it Can we talk as Jews for a second? Sure Before you came on I was talking about In the last few days This whole charge of genocide has really gathered momentum with Elizabeth Warren saying it. There was an article in The Washington Post by this guy, Mass or Moss, I don't know, Peter Moss.

And I'm not going to go into all the reasons. I think the charge is so ridiculous. But I said, this to me is like an acid rain on the Jewish psychology, and it's corroding my children, and there's nothing I can do to stop it. There's no amount of telling them why it's wrong that can prevent them from that can protect them from this pressure of of the jews now being associated essentially with the world's villains the nazis and i'm so scared

of this i don't know you must have some of these feelings for sure absolutely but let me just say i actually do think you can do something about it i I do, personally. There's like blaming the rape victim, right? And accusing her of bad behavior. That's what happened to Jews on October 7th. This was, you know, obviously what happened was an absolute horrific tragedy. And then to turn around and say, you're responding, you're trying to get your hostages back. That's a genocide when they've made every effort to avoid it. It's such a moral obscenity. And I think our kids have to know what we think. And you know what? It's going to make them stronger. It will. These Jewish kids who are having to stand up for themselves for the first time, they're going to end up stronger

because of it. So you're fortunate here because I think you have a much more Jewish home than I do. My wife's not Jewish, although the kids were converted and they're not surrounded by it. They don't have that protection of the strong Jewish community around them. But having said that, I know so many people who were raised with strong Jewish homes who have gone soft on this issue as adults. But I think the Orthodox have the most protection. I went to a Shabbat dinner in an Orthodox home the other night, and I almost my whole life had never been. And I was so moved by this. Not that it was particularly religious, even they were making

outrageous jokes whatever it is but i did i did lament that if only my kids had this experience every friday it would um reinforce them in some way anyway um i'm just very worried about it i have friends you know full-blood jewish families in there and their kids became woke and look at israel as an oppressor and they're full they go the full intersectional and they're open to this genocide charge and i just just imagine if they get their way how are they going to teach kids 10 years from now? Oh, there's genocides starting in the 20th century with the Nazis and then the Hutus and Pol Pot. And then, of course, the Jews did it to the Palestinians, which kind of cancels the whole thing out. It's kind of an erasure.

God forbid that's the way history is taught. I don't know. I'm sick of this. Yeah. I mean, I think all of those are real worries. They really are, and they're important. I guess I'm worried. I think that we as Americans, you know, Jews included, but everyone, we haven't done a very good job passing on our values to our kids. No.

Well, no, but what about free speech? How come kids are showing up on campus? This has been going on for decades now. They don't think free speech is important in America. We didn't teach that to them. And we did a lousy job of that. I mean, at the very least, we should tell them why our freedoms are important.

And we didn't do such a hot job, but we can fix that. Absolutely. Look, I think the problems are like when AI comes in and AI is rewriting history and that's the only history they can get access to. And it's telling them lies about Israel. That's a real problem. And, and I think we're going to have to develop our own solutions, but telling kids what's true, what the values of your home are, what, what, what the truth of the matter is, that's something we can start on right away.

And and yeah, it's true. It's easier in a community that reinforces those values. But look, there are like minded people all around. You just need to sort of grab them and and bring them together. What if what if you teach your kids to think for themselves and to defend their values, and after much thought, they come to the conclusion that Israel is a colonial, genocidal power? I mean, do you give any credit for having the courage of one's convictions, even if you're disgusted by those convictions? No, I don't think that's the result of thought. I'm with you. Or any knowledge or study. I think that's the result of any knowledge or study. I think that's the

result of idiocy or not knowing the facts or, you know, a certain ideological commitment to, you know, your pre-commitment before the evidence. So I don't think you if you examine anything, honestly, you can come up with that solution or that. I have a thing where I did an interview before October. So I'm not going to send it a thing where I did an interview before October 7th. I'm not going to send it to you. I was worried about almost exactly what's happening. And I said that the Jewish, especially secular Jews,

just stop teaching their kids anything about Israel, the facts of the conflict. Most Jewish kids I meet, you ask them, well, how did the occupied territories become occupied? They're like, I don't know. Like the most basic facts.

And I worry that sooner or later this would become important because when the shit hit the fan, we wouldn't have the basic vocabulary to defend ourselves. And, you know, we would, as all people are, be bent by peer pressure. And there's nothing more powerful than peer pressure, as all people are, be bent by peer pressure. And there's nothing more powerful than peer pressure, as we see. So that's what I think is happening. Hopefully, go ahead, sorry.

Look at the examples in the culture then. Forget about putting Israel to one side for a second. Think about what you can tell your kids. Look what Bill Ackman did all by himself. That was a remarkable achievement this is one guy of all the rich donors to harvard look what he did to harvard it matters it should make us all so proud what one guy and the courage of his convictions did for the horrible treatment of jews at harvard can i and i yeah go ahead. No, I have an anecdote.

Yeah. Go ahead. No, she, she. Go ahead. So I was at this, doing this, this bar doing comedy. Unfortunately, I don't get as many spots here at the comedy cellar as I would prefer. So sometimes I go other places. Anyway, that's beside the point.

Can you put the camera on Dan next? Go ahead. So this guy, I don't know. I think he was from Turkey. And he says, my girlfriend is Palestinian. and I wanted to break up with her, but then October 7th happened, and I couldn't break up with her during a genocide. So I was outraged that he used, even if you think it's bad enough that he used the term genocide, but he started, he dated the genocide from October 7th,

which is the date that an attempted genocide, if you will, was perpetrated on Israel. So I was disgusted. Who is this idiot? And why does he still get booked more than you? No, no. This was just like an open mic bar show. Oh, OK. And I was, you know, and then I did my set.

And then after my set, he gave me a fist bump. I said, dude, awesome. And I admit it. I gave him the fist bump back. You buckled. I buckled buckled yeah what are your thoughts i don't know you know i we can't go through life you know always uh announcing everything we believe at any moment i mean i believe i also believe that there's a time and place for things so i don't think that every jew Jewish student at every university has to stand up for Israel at every moment. You know, sometimes they want to study chemistry, and that's fine, too.

But I do think that there needs to be a line for people, a time when you say, you know, this is my line. And I think that there are these wonderful examples in the culture, and you see them. They're around us all the time, from Bill Ackman tory weiss people could get up and say enough's enough i'm not going to be silent while you sit there and harass jews on campus for being jewish and i think it's an amazing thing i think it really is an example to all young people and and especially young jewish kids and we just gotta point it out yeah we all have to do more. I would you have fist bumped the guy? I don't know. I always think it's very easy to, you know, make judgments. I know I would. I would have fist bumped the guy. It's a silly

way to make a point. But I think we all have to do more in terms of we know it when we don't want to be the odd man out and don't want to stand up for our people, not because they're our people, but because we believe they're right. And I've challenged people that were my friends and I knew they may never talk to me again. I feel like I'm being morally tested. I have to do it. It's obsessing me right now. again. I just, I feel like I'm being morally tested. I have to do it. I it's, it's, um,

it's obsessing me right now. Um, so anyway, so your, your book, so, you know, uh, from time to time I read books and I'll comment on somebody's vocabulary, but then if I read more books of that person or in that subject, I realized, well, actually this is just a like mini vocabulary and they all know these words and I become less impressed. Like, I don, well, actually, this is just a mini vocabulary, and they all know these words, and I become less impressed. I don't know if you ever read a Cormac McCarthy novel. He's got 50 words I never heard before, but it's the same 50 words. But you have a fantastic vocabulary, and I don't know where you get these words from. Maybe the dictionary online? Well, no, but they're so varied. I'm just wondering, what was the life experience

that picked up these words? Unless you consulted with a thesaurus. I recommend the Kindle to everybody. So in the Kindle, if you look up a word, it saves it in the Kindle, so then you can go back and it can do flashcards for you.

It doesn't help me at my age. I can't remember any new words, but it gives you a list of every word that you looked up, so you could build your vocabulary that way. I encourage my kids to do that. So I made a list of the words that I looked up here, and we're going to test to see if you guys... Well, I just go on record as saying

that I find Noam's obsession with vocabulary odd. And then I'm going to ask if Abigail remembers why she knows this word. All right. Okay. Veridicality. Oh. Well, I would say. Oh, go ahead, Dale.

Well, verity from the Latin means truth, so I would imagine that's some, that it relates to the truth. That was my third guess. It means coinciding with reality. Such memories are not necessarily veridical. So there's a nuance to it. So how would you know a word like that? Reading. From reading.

Yeah, for sure. I just learned words from reading. yeah for sure i i just learned words for reading other authors use them so in that context i i you know i've known that word for a while but but i'm sure it can't why did it come to mind probably because i was doing research on memory and so i was reading about veridical and non-veridical impressions and then it worked itself into the writing but if even or yeah well if even gnome who's a very educated intelligent guy doesn't know that word then you got to figure 90 of the readers don't know that word so what is to be gained by using that word oh oh i don't think

i never talk down to people i don't know what they know but i try to give them look my book is filled with i hope um things that you might not know, or you might not have thought of, if I'm just telling you what you already know, I'm not doing my job. And I try to give you something more. I mean, look, if you're going to spend whatever when the book went on sale, they were charging $30 $30 for a hardback book. And I just feel like if I'm going to charge somebody $30 for a book of mine, I better give them a good time and a good experience and a meaningful one.

And that means, you know, maybe words you haven't heard before, but also, you know, ideas you haven't considered. And a lot of research I try to, you know, talk to. I, you know, conducted over 200 interviews. And I really try to give you, you know know bang for your buck as it were oh absolutely i i i first of all every one of these words when i looked it up was the perfect word it wasn't like why didn't she just say you know blah blah blah well it was they they're you know so shut up dan okay um give us another word uh give dana oubliette well oubliette is french for forget

so oubliette did the mist of forgottenness no oubliette i think i learned that from the movie movie labyrinth oh so you remember that movie it was like i think uh i'm trying to remember what it was it was it was anyway it was in the 90s i I think, but it involved Muppets and whatever, but I remember there was an oubliette. Here's the sentence. Gadsden yells because it hurts, only to find himself down the now familiar oubliette of apology and self-reproach.

And what it means... Dungeon. Is a secret dungeon with access only through a trap door in its ceiling. Wow. Okay, a couple more. Fug, F-U-G. I didn't even know that was a word.

That's a good Scrabble word, fug. Gosh, I learned that from, I think, an Emma Klein novel. Fug-get about it? It means a warm, stuffy, or smoky atmosphere in a room. A cozy, this is dictionary usage, the cozy fog of the music halls. And in her book, Nature, the Medical Journal, Lancet, and NPR all agree,

depression is merely a rational response to the greenhouse gases smothering fog. Wow. I mean, this is first class. This is fantastic. Do you want to hear one more? Are you enjoying this? Yeah, actually, it's fun. Wow. I mean, this is first class. This is fantastic. Do you want to hear one more? Are you enjoying this? Yeah, actually, it's fun. Okay.

Rictus. Yeah, let's say like a rictus is another word that's French. It's like a wry grin of some sort, like a twisted grin. Very good, Dan. A fixed grimace or grin. All right, so that was two. Now, this one I should have known,

and I think I might have known, but parallax. Yeah, that's like when you see... It's like when you close one eye and then you close another and your finger moves. I believe that's parallax. Very good, Dan.

Thank you. Okay, I guess that's... Wait, is there anything else you know what ontological means I know what this one is I know that ontology recapitulates phylogeny but I don't know what it means

you know what it means what's ontology now it's a branch of metaphysics dealing with the nature of being and the final word is for the day is I have, I don't, is. We should do this every show. No, no, no. You don't understand how good this book is.

I was, I was so beside myself when I thought she wouldn't do the podcast because. I know I've never seen Gnome spring into action like that before to get a guest. I can't put it to words. This book is, I've been trying to get my wife to read it. It's like an oracle. All right.

Iatro Genesis. Iatro? This is the first. Iatro. Iatro Genesis. Iatro. Can you use it in a sentence? Oh, wait.

That would give it away. Iatro. Well, Genesis is the genesis of something. So it's the genesis of Iatro. I-A-T-R-O. Can you spell it, please? Yes. I-A-T-R-O. Can you spell it, please? Yes. I-A-T-R-O.

So you want to tell us what it is? Then we can pretty much begin. Sure. It's when a healer introduces the harm. Ooh. So I remember I wrote my last book about an iatrogenic phenomenon also. So I've been looking into these for a while. It's when, you know, in the course of treatment,

the healer makes things worse or introduces a new symptom to the patient. And that definitely happened with girls who were convinced, you know, sometimes by school counselors or therapists that they were really boys or that they had gender dysphoria. Now, you had a big impact on the world. You recognize that, right? That when you see the world world literally the entire world coming around closer to your position that must give you a tremendous feeling of accomplishment oh i you know i i'm happy for yeah i mean i'm really happy that parents have more information now that we're more aware of the risks i mean it's horrifying i don't i it's hard to feel too good about it

because what what what the book was about was a horrifying medical scandal where people were given misinformation and pushed to transition their daughters in ways that were you know really reckless no supervision no good medical rationale for it and they were pushed to very scary treatments um and the long-term effects are still unfolding we don't we don't know all what all the long-term effects are still unfolding. We don't know what all the long-term effects will be. So, you know, it's, I think that, you know, it's, you know, I'm glad that the word is out, but I also feel some humility that, you know,

what I was writing about was really, it's a horrible thing that happened. All right, well, Abigail Schreier, unless you guys have any last questions. I know, Dan, you have a lot of experience with therapy. If you have any final questions you want to ask, we're going to allow her to get on with her busy day. I just would say get on with your busy day.

I think all my questions have been answered. All right. Well, as always, if you ever get to New York, I'm sure you must get to New York from time to time. Sure. We'd love to meet you in person or bring your family to the Comedy Cellar. Podcast at ComedyCellar.com. If anyone has a comment, please buy Abigail Schreier's book, Bad Therapy, especially if

you're parents, because really it will open your eyes to a lot of things. So thank you very much. Thanks for having me on. It's great to meet you. Thank you.