The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Anti-Semitism, Abortion, Religion and Homosexuality

Episode Date: February 17, 2019

Sohrab Amari and Mehran Khagani

You're listening to The Comedy Cellar, live from the table, on the Riotcast Network, riotcast.com. Good evening, everybody. Welcome to the Comedy Cellar Show here on Sirius XM Channel 99. My name is Noam Dorman. I'm the owner of the Comedy Cellar. We're here at the back table of the Comedy Cellar. I'm here, as always, with my friend, Mr. Dan Natterman. Hello. And we have some guests tonight.

First of all, Mehran Kagani is a New York City-based stand-up comedian. He may be seen performing regularly at the Comedy Cellar, and he used to work for Larry Summers. Indeed. Why did you work for him? I was a project manager for the Office of the Provost. At Harvard. Yeah, I oversaw all provostial inter-faculty initiatives. And I asked you to come this week because our next guest, I'm going to introduce him, is Persian.

And I think that was the shallowest of decisions I've ever made. Because that's really, like, you have nothing in common. And anyway. We both have dark hair. You know? We both look good in a suit jacket. I mean, third thing. And I'm just praying you don't upset him.

Because I'm a huge admirer of this man. We should mention that... Hold on. Saurabh Amari is the op-ed editor of the New York Post and author of the just-published memoir, From Fire by Water. Previously, he spent five years as a columnist and editor with the Wall Street Journal opinion pages in New York and London, and Commentary Magazine, where I was introduced to him. That's right. Welcome, Saurabh Amari. I did want to mention that Mehran is wearing a shirt, a t-shirt. No, no, no.

Why? It's just that important right now. Yeah. Well, I assume we'll get to it eventually. You want to say it? He's wearing a t-shirt that says, My Pussy, My Choice. I am wearing a t-shirt that says,

My Pussy, My Choice. Sung to the tune of No Woman, No Cry. My Pussy, My Choice. Okay, okay, okay. Already this is done. I apologize. This is already my joy. Okay, okay, okay. Already this is done. I apologize. This is already exactly why. No, we have dignified guests.

God forbid we are who we are on this show. So let me say. So I first went crazy over you when, take it easy, Mira. Wow. When I heard you on the commentary podcast and you used the phrase, the spirit of due process.

I don't remember what the issue was, but at the same time, I was trying to decide what I was going to do when Louis came back. The issue was Louis. Was it? The issue was Louis. It was Louis. And I said, oh, that's exactly. And you were thinking right along the lines exactly the way I had been thinking. And then many times after that, in that podcast where, forgive me, it was hard to get a word. I felt like it was hard for you to get a word in edgewise sometimes.

When you did get your word in edgewise, it was almost as, oh, no, that's the take that I was feeling was missing. And I felt like a kindred spirit to you in a certain way. And I've been trying to kind of meet you ever since. I'm very happy that you came on the podcast. So let's start with the issues of the day. Which one? Which is the latest? Ilhan Omar?

Well, yes, we could certainly do that. But since Moranis came to fight for abortion rights. Oh my God. Oh yeah, I guess so. Why don't we talk about our guest's journey from, you started off Islamic? I was born into a nominally Muslim family. And you became a Catholic.

Yeah, but I came to Catholicism from basically unbelief. It's not like as if I was praying to Allah five times a day. Okay, so the fact that you were born into an Islamic family or society, you would say is not really relevant to your journey toward Catholicism. People have to read the book, but no. Well, you know, people don't read. Well, you can tease it.

I think Mehran would know the milieu I came from, which is a sort of, you know, basically totally irreligious, as many Iranian, middle-class, educated Iranians are. Totally non-religious. I mean, the society is, obviously, the state is Muslim. We were very high class. But what made you say to yourself, my God, the Catholics have it right? Mm-hmm.

Yeah, but what triggered that? Reading. And going to mass. And at some level needing faith and wanting faith in your life. Why anyone seeks God, I suppose, yeah. Order.

It's not just that they have better parties than Muslims, because they do. Let's be real. The smells, the bells, the yells. Smells and bells were a big part of it. But in your search for faith, there's a lot of different things you can choose from. And what was it about Catholicism that made you say to yourself, that's, that they, they. You could have gone Jewish. That's what I'm wondering.

Maybe your time at commentary turned you off to that. No, I was, I was the resident Catholic at commentary. Oh, you were already Catholic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it was, you No, it was going to Mass and the non-spiritual reasons would be the fact that the Church has been

continuously in existence for more than 2,000 years. And so that sense of authority and order was very attractive to me. Because otherwise... Corruption, hoarding, bearing secrets. Just so you know that you didn't walk into the lion's den I can't account for him

I don't know what's going to come out of his mouth and it's the same thing here but the truth is that Dan and I we're both non-believers I don't think Dan's a believer

I struggle to believe and I've had little success thus far by the end of the podcast you'll be believers I would love that but we're actually quite sympathetic

I'm actually quite sympathetic. I'm actually quite sympathetic to the... I'm quite disdainful of the people who are pro-choice in an arrogant way without recognizing the fact that the logic is stronger, actually, on the pro-life side to anybody who wants to be fair, which is why I think something like Christopher

Hitchens even, towards the end of his life, said that he felt pro-life because... He got cuntier just before Hitchens even, towards the end of his life, said that he felt pro-life because, and now- He got cuntier just before he died. And you know, and I know people are going to go crazy when I say this, but science, of course, is the enemy of the pro-choice position. And I'd say one other thing that- How so and why so? Because when I was a kid, when the abortion decision first came down, we really thought

of this as some clump of cells. Sure. And then now as a parent, when you have a three-month-old fetus in your wife's belly, you look at it and it's sucking its thumb and it's responding. And a few weeks later, it's actually, you know, has the hiccups and whatever it is, and you realize that, oh, this was... I truly wonder if in the age of ultrasounds in 1973 or whenever it was, they could have gotten away with that decision. At least it would have had to have been on different grounds

because people really fundamentally did not see it the way they see it now. You know, I asked on... Can I respond to that? Go ahead. I asked on Facebook because I enjoy... I have too much free time, and I do enjoy debating on Facebook. I asked on Facebook because I enjoy, I have too much free time and I do enjoy debating

on Facebook. I asked the question, if a fetus was a sentient being, so much so, in fact, that if you had memories of your time as a fetus, would that change

your opinion on abortion? And you got attacked. A lot of people said, that's ridiculous! A fetus is not sentient! And then I had to calmly say, I repeat the question. If a fetus was sentient, would that change your... A lot of people just didn't want to even address that issue.

A lot of people said, no it wouldn't, it's my body. Even if it was a sentient being. One person said it would change their opinion. One person said, well what if cancer cells were sentient?. One person said it would change their opinion. One person said, well, what if cancer cells were sentient? To which I responded, there's no evidence to suggest that they are. However, if they were, I would favor their eradication due to their bad effect on the body. But a lot of people don't care if the cephitis is sentient. That's not central

to their argument. Have you seen what happens to some women after they make a baby? I mean, honestly. It's worse than cancer. Central to their argument is that it's their body. Therefore, their choice, no matter whether the fetus is a person or not.

So what do you think about that argument? Because when I went to law school, and when I was in law school, I always, and I always, when I said, it was like, repeat after me.

It's a woman's right to choose. I'm like, okay, but that's not a, that's a conclusion. That's not a that's a that's a conclusion that's not a reasoning and let me also disclose that i've i've i've had girls who had abortions so i'm not being wholly than now about this i'm just trying to be you know straight up with the logic so what do you what what

your feelings but i think i think as the science has progressed uh... public opinion is shifted to the pro-life side who in the sense that i think when p think when sonograms and ultrasounds, when they give you that sense that even at the earliest scans, you see the heart rate, immediately people sense what's obvious, which is personhood. And so I think with these recent laws, the Reproductive Health

Act and so-called Reproductive Health Act in New York, the one that was proposed in Virginia, I think that a lot of Americans will recoil at the idea that personhood only begins once you're out of the womb. And up to any point before then, you know, the fact that the fetus can feel pain, you know, suck its thumb, as you said, are all irrelevant.

I mean, that's... But to the extent that it is wholly dependent on a host body to see it through. But very old people are dependent on caretakers. And so are newborn babies. Right. And when they can't provide for themselves

and they didn't, you know, sort of create a nest egg so that they would be looked after. The difference between you and me and Dan is probably, I think once you sprinkle in religion, belief in that, then it becomes almost it's so compelling, how could

you have to succumb to it? If you actually believe in the soul and that God has an opinion about this, and then you look at the empirical evidence, and that's why it has to be respected. You don't need religion, though, to be as pro-life as I am. Because, you know, first of all,

none of us would be here if our parents had exercised. Well, I believe it was Heinrich Hein that said that that's the greatest gift of all to never have been born. But I don't want to get too nihilist. And if Sovrab were to impregnate me,

I would keep it. He is unbelievably attractive. Like, you can tell there is a... He is genetically whole and clean. Right? I'm just saying that if he were to... Do you know what I mean? No. I don't know what you mean. Do you know what he means?

He's saying that he is a handsome man and I would have to agree with him. Let's say he and I didn't take precautions. Can I interject here? This is our producer, Periel. Why should a woman break in on this? What's unbelievable to me is the ability to have this conversation without even considering the fact that you need a woman to actually carry this baby

and to make decisions for somebody else is so dangerous. I mean, you and I have had this conversation. Yeah. Yeah, it is. You can't just make decisions for other people. The problem I have with our producer is that she will not stay within the rails.

She's a woman. No, don't say that. Oh, come on. Stop. That she won't stay within the rails of a logical thing. We're talking about basically the following.

In every code of morality, the number one rule that all other rules bend to is thou shalt not murder. There's no thing that comes above that. Not my body, my convenience, my whatever it is. That's not true. So the first question. But that's not true, Noam. So the first question that has to be answered, either way, the first question that has to be answered, is it murder? But that's not true.

And the question of is it murder is the question which is impossible to get people to stick to. Answer that question. But wait a second. Then we will go on to how we weigh that against the woman's right. And death penalty and euthanasia? No, the woman's right to. No, no, no. But what about weighing it against the death penalty and euthanasia? No, the woman's right to... No, no, no. But what about weighing it against the death penalty and euthanasia?

No, no. You're talking about murder. You're casting a big net. She gets to cast a big net back. No. Are we? I would say, I mean... Look, if you have a consistent ethic of life, you also oppose euthanasia because... And the death penalty?

The death penalty is complicated. Is it? See, she sucked you into a vortex now. Now you're going to talk about the death penalty. That's not fair. Don't do that to me. Can we settle the fetus question first? I don't know. If the fetus were to fall out of the mom,

she's walking, she's jogging, she could give a shit. And the fetus falls out and they're like, is that a shrimp cocktail? I actually thought we were going to settle abortion here today. I find that this is an issue which can't be done. Let's say some five-month-old fetus just falls out onto the sidewalk.

That thing does not have a chance at living. It's surviving. It is wholly dependent on a toast. How about a two-month-old baby? A two-month-old baby? Give it to some terrible Christian family that can't wait to on a toast. How about a two-month-old baby? A two-month-old baby? It's wholly dependent. Give it to some terrible Christian family that can't wait to have a kid. Some horrible, infertile pair of whites.

Sell them the baby. See, to me, when I hear the tropes that they resort to, I get more and more uncomfortable with what I've done. Because maybe you don't see it. All of these are just ways of avoiding talking about what is obviously the threshold issue. When does life begin? At what point

do we, does the right, in other words, nobody has a right to be murdered because of the way they came into existence, because all these natural things. You can't take my life away. I believe in murder. Does that help? Alright. I want to hear about the death. I believe in murder. Does that help? All right. I want to hear about the death.

I really am curious as to... It's not innocent life. It's a punishment. Okay. Periel, what about my question? If you knew that a fetus was sentient, had memories, thoughts... How about felt pain?

How about you knew it felt pain? First of all, both of you relax, okay? I'm not attacking. I'm asking a question. I actually want to move. I want to get away from abortion because it's the last thing I really wanted to talk about today.

Okay. I thought you loved that time. No, not with Sarah. But I will tell you this story. I had a vegan... Did I tell you this story last week? I had a vegan over at my house. And he's like a real vegan.

And I was really like probing him. I'm like, well, what if you own the farm and you knew the animals were treated humiliating? No. Well, what if it was a chicken egg and unfertilized? Would you eat that? No. And he had a reason because the way food is produced.

I said, what if it was a pet chicken and it just happened to drop your pet in your house and it happened to drop an egg unfertilized? Would you eat that? He says, no. I said, now what about abortion? He said, it's a woman's right to choose. And I'm like, and it's like, what would he eat it? No, he would not even eat an unfertilized egg of a pet chicken yet.

He thought it was, he saw no qualms about an abortion of a five-month-old fetus. I rest my case. And it makes perfect sense to them. It probably makes sense to you. No, you said you wanted to move away from it. You would think at least vegans would be, at least maybe

limited to 12 weeks or something. Anyway, a vegan. I mean, come on. But isn't it interesting that you could probably profile 85 to 90% of vegans and know that actually they're probably on the extreme pro-choice part of the spectrum. Can I just ask one final question? When you say you're pro-life, does that mean upon conception or at a certain point in the pregnancy? Upon conception.

Upon conception. There are some polls, by the way, that say that 73% of America is pro-choice. Just putting that, you know what I mean? Well, the polls are. In general, this country is pro-choice. And what if you've been raped by your father and become impregnated?

And you're 12 years old. Are you supposed to have that baby also? I mean, that's part. According to that logic, yes. I would say about the 70%, though, that there's some nuance there in the sense that most Americans support limits up to a certain point. Yeah, and I think that that's very reasonable, except for in super extreme cases. Okay, if we're moving away from it, let's move away from it.

Okay, so let's talk about Ilhan Omar. Am I saying her name right? Yes. So I had a not typical take on it. I wrote some emails about it. I was thinking about reading them, but I'm not going to... Don't read it. It sounds too stiff.

Just summarize. Well, can I read a little bit of it just to get answers? Please. A short segment, if you will. I said, isn't it a quixotic notion that the left can in every way possible show its disdain for Israel, and then we expect the public to understand the anti-Semitism in Omar's remarks. It's a natural question.

If no one really likes these people, why do we keep supporting them? Because the left hates Israel, right? There must be some answer. They spend all this money lobbying and donating. Don't they have anything to show for all that money? And if they do have something to show for it, we can't talk about it? So I'll stop there. The logic being that if the Jews do spend a lot of money

lobbying for Israel, and we presume they feel they get some return on their investment, then whatever that return is, we're not allowed to talk about. Now, I believe she's her remarks are anti-Semitic, don't get me wrong, but it makes me very uncomfortable that something which I know exists, that we Jews are creating this barrier around it, no matter what, you can't talk about it. And I don't think it holds up logically. Otherwise,

why would we spend any money lobbying? So what do you think about that? I think, look, does the pro-Israel lobby lobby? Of course it does. But I think people who think that the reason most Americans and therefore most members of Congress support Israel is solely because of money or pro-Israel influence,

forget the fact that support forrael is part of our civil religion there isn't that profound affinity that most americans feel with but that that you know the sole real democracy in the middle east and if also support for biblical reasons for uh... the ones i mentioned the sort of sense of of uh... affinity between two democracies it's there so they are not on the left anymore it is it's changing on the left yet and the omar is

unbelievably shocking to me and if you saw her texas grilling uh... eliot abrams today no so it's ok but it's really a brunt obviously was in charge of of latin america policy uh... under the reagan administration meets tough this is a time when there was a charge of Latin America policy under the Reagan administration and made some tough decisions at a time when there was a threat of communism taking over our own hemisphere.

So she said, do you think XYZ massacre in El Salvador by right-wing militias was a fantastic achievement as you describe Reagan's El Salvador policy? And he said, no, I don't. And she says, I'll take that as a yes. That's so uncivil.

That's so beyond how we do this sort of new breed of really hard left Democrats terrify me. Well, it's and so then just to continue that I read, I said, when was the last time we heard a full throated moral defense of Israel from a Democrat and why we support it? Or a Democrat at least under 70. How about a strong or even fair newspaper or network TV presentation? 60 minutes. They'll defend the theoretical. We oppose anti-Semitism, but never defend the concrete.

Hey, how would you feel if rockets started coming down on your kids' schools? Do you even know how Israel came into these territories? Do you know what happened recently when they tried to give it back? The point being that... And Netanyahu's voice in general. No, the point being that when you abandon, especially American Jews more significantly than anybody, because people look to us,

if we don't even stand up for ourselves, that's got to be the baseline. Everybody's going to line up behind that, logically. That if you are raised for years without ever hearing the case, the compelling case for Israel and the situation that it's in, when the people reporting this case have no sympathy for, as I said, rockets coming down on schools, avoid the question of human shields, all this stuff, then of course Omar sounds correct. Like, well, why would we be supporting these people?

Look at what they're doing. So I guess she makes sense. Money's a logical answer. Can I tell you a crazy anecdote? A couple. I mean, I get invited to talk to young Jewish groups and so forth, or to Shabbat dinners. Now, as you heard, I'm an Iranian-born Catholic convert.

But often in those rooms with young jews american jesus all the young jews go i'm the guy who's saying you know jewish particularities worth defending right now what does that mean particular sense that that that because they they all have this a universalist notions of justice or psych well uh... we need to give up our rights and what why do we always talk about jewish

security which talk about Jewish security? We should talk about security for that group and that group and intersectionality. And I'm like, wait, hold on. Jewish security matters. Even what's happened in Jewish history. It's not crazy for Jews to be worried about their security or to want a nation state of their own and to fiercely defend it.

It's bizarre that I'm the one... How did you come to that? He's Catholic. It's not because of the Catholicism. It's bizarre that I'm the one... How did you come to that? He's Catholic. It's not because of the Catholicism. It's just the fairness of history. But to what extent, also, do you believe that there's a biblical drama playing out? No, no, no. I'm not sort of dispensationalist,

evangelical, like, that the Jews are in-gathering until the apocalypse comes. No, it's a secular case for Israel. First of all, that Judaism is not just a religion, but it's also peoplehood. And just like we don't question why the Spaniards have Spain or why Zimbabweans have Zimbabwe.

Although people are starting to question whether people of Spanish descent should continue to have Spain. I mean, that is a question. If you proposed this question to people, should Spain be a country for people of Spanish descent mainly, you would get some dissent nowadays on that issue. Or should England be a country of Anglo-Saxon descent? That's sort of, I think, a crazy drift toward transnationalism,

the idea that each of our loyalties shouldn't be to our own kin and to our nations, but to mankind at large. But most people don't feel that way. I don't relate to mankind at large. I relate to my fellow Americans at most. At most. And to your fellow Persians,

or is that still with you? It's now a sort of quixotic distant attachment. So you feel no attachment to our friend Mehran Kagani other than normal? As an American or... Sure, we just greeted each other. As a prostitute. Let me ask you the other part about Omar.

As a woman. As a white woman. As a woman and as a fertile woman. The other part about Omar, so I was kind of defending her in a sense, like, first of all, don't call her an anti-Semite for this. Better to, because it's a bad look. You're only convincing the people who already don't like her. And it's a bad look to these kids on college campuses.

They grew up hearing about Israel's apartheid and all this stuff. And this plays right into their worldview when she says something that they believe is true. And rather than refuting it, we say, no, you shall not say it. But you grew up Muslim, and I had another thought. I read that in a moment of candor, Ehud Barak, who was the prime minister of Israel at one time, said, if I were a Palestinian of the right age, I would join at some point one of the terrorist groups. And I thought that no Jew would

ever say that about a German or a Nazi, for instance. That Christian anti-Semitism is not an identical twin, in my mind, to Muslim dislike of the Jews. Because in the end, there is a real conflict there. When you see... That has also been stoked by the West. Hold on. When you see people that you regard as your brothers and sisters being shot, children, doesn't matter why, it takes a superhuman ability to not feel a hatred towards those people. So you go to the Japanese who were victims in Hiroshima. Well, no, no, no.

You know about Pearl Harbor? Oh, yeah. Sorry. My bad, you guys. It's asking a lot. And yes, it's complicated because we also know that in Islam, I think the Koran does say bad things

about Jews, I've read, I'm no expert, and that there's not a lot of respect for diversity of opinion there. So it's all a cocktail, and you can't separate it. But in the end, when I meet someone who was raised a Muslim

and identifies with that conflict, and I hear anti-Jewish things coming out of their mouths, I don't react to it the same way I do as I would a Christian's mouth, a white person's mouth, who has no beef with the Jews, no reason to resent the Jews. When someone tells me they're religious, I'm like, where does the logic fail? No, this is not a religious thing. This is not, well, so do you...

Well, part of the reason, no. So you were raised in this. Am I onto something there? No, I don't think most Muslims should have a legitimate beef with Israel. But is it asking too much of them? Of humans?

The Jews are guilty of it too. They see I mean, anybody. I remember a few months ago, we had footage of these young kids being shot when they were protesting, when they were sending those kites over the wall. Yeah, yeah. And I was with some Palestinian friend of mine,

he's actually an Israeli Arab, and I saw the pain. Like, he was trying to get through this. It was visceral for him. And that visceral feeling that he was having that germans weren't having that that that they didn't have that excuse and i think it's not fair to not recognize that that is different is different in a person to me

as at most that would extend to the people in the territories what else in the senses but beyond that i But beyond that, I mean, what... Well, I see Jews being killed in Israel. It extends to me. But Jews are a small group. But are Muslims... Do Muslims feel solidarity with each other

to that extent? There's billions of them. I think... Some are white, some are black, some are Asian. The Middle Eastern... I don't think you necessarily even have to be a Muslim. I think anybody who can... Who has a problem with seeing an underdog trampled,

I think, can feel... can have a visceral reaction to a rocket beating a rock. That's fair. I mean, it's... The media images are difficult to process, I think, for a lot of people. I mean, I don't want to grant that to the Palestinian side because they've had so many opportunities to not be living the way they do, right?

Yes, that's for sure. I agree with that. But I don't think that contradicts what I'm saying. No, it doesn't. It doesn't. I'm just saying, like... You say rationally their leadership made mistakes and so forth. I just... So it is anti-Semitism, and clearly this is not her first strike,

and we know they're raised on a diet of anti-Semitism. We know it all. Nevertheless, I have a softer reaction to somebody from that world who feels this way. Well, I think there's another reason for that. What's that? For the same reason when we see black people, black Hebrews in the streets ranting about white people and Jews,

we don't feel quite as frightened as when we see KKK people. White people are scary. They're scary because they have shown historically that when they get their shit together and are fixing to do some damage, they do some damage. There is no fiercer force on earth, whether it be the Holocaust, whether it be the...

I heard what the Japanese did to the Koreans and the Chinese. What happened with the Hootsies and the Tootsies in Rwanda? For some reason, and I've thought about this, I can't quite figure out why, it's always scarier when it's white people. The besiege of Iran. I mean, like, every culture has its good loonies. Yes, you're right.

But white people just are scarier. They scare people. Mossad is terrifying. So we have many Egyptians who work in the kitchen. And I learned at a young age, because they, many of them, especially there was one guy, Hassan, who was a manager. He really believed this stuff, like that the Mossad was putting chemicals in the Nile to make the Egyptian women horny. And he believed that. He says, if you kill a Jew.

Is that a bad thing? I don't know. Is that true? He says, he believed if you killed a Jew, you went to a special place in heaven, and the Jews were going to be one mile from the sun and burning. Like, he believed all this stuff,

yet he was a dear friend of ours. You know, there was a, people are able to compartmentalize these ridiculous ideas to the point where it's hard to even understand the cognitive dissonance. One mile from the sun,

I submit, would be a painless death. Probably a million miles. But also, you're able to compartmentalize that in him. Because I realized that what I was dealing with is, it's like meeting some white dude from the 1700s

who grew up around slavery. I have to, in some way, judge him in the time and place. I have to rethink the amount that I conceded to you. I think that Muslim anti-Semitism hurts a lot of Muslim societies. And I mean it in the sense that if you think that your organizing principle is that Jews are these dark, nefarious forces and everything that's wrong in your society can be traced back to their conspiratorial ways, that affects your worldview in all sorts of other ways

that are harmful to your own society. In other words, antisemitism is a kind of hatred. It's just like other forms of bigotry in some ways, but in others, it's more than that. It's an account of the whole world, and a terrible one in that sense. I'll give you an example. We're both from London.

I once got into a taxi cab. This is a Tom Friedman-type story, talking about your taxi encounters. It was this Bangladeshi taxi driver, and when he found out i was iranian he was like oh brother i gotta tell you we are not these terrorists as we're portrayed i just want to get on with my life and the terrorism that that's committed by a few extremists really bothers me and i was like oh my goodness you should be the face of British Islam you know go on go on and he's like yes I mean I don't

want to I know it's coming the things that are imputed to us is absolutely awful it doesn't represent my values as a British Muslim and here it comes it's like wonderful you should be the face of British Islam and he said so I just wonder who benefits

from us being portrayed this way? Exactly. He was meant to do it. It's the Jews. It's always the... Can I go back briefly to my statement about white people

and when white people are so scary... How scary are they? I'll tell you how scary are they. And I'm trying to struggle with why this is. When a Japanese person says, we are proud of our Japanese heritage,

everybody says, oh, that's cool, okay. When a white person says, I am proud of my white heritage, we go, ah! Well, there's an obvious answer for that. Okay, but there might be an obvious answer, but that obvious answer is one of the reasons you find Christian anti-Semitism scarier than Muslim anti-Semitism. Go ahead, what's your obvious answer? One of the reasons you find Christian anti-Semitism scarier than Muslim anti-Semitism. Because, well, go ahead.

What's your obvious answer? Well, the obvious answer is that we, I mean, it may be actually changing now. They may actually be creating a white nationality where there never was one before. But for most of my life, white people never bonded on white. You're Irish, Italian, or Jewish, or whatever. We never had a white heritage. Like the identitarianism movements throughout Europe. He has a beef with you because you use the word identitarian

in your artwork. Go ahead. Can we finish this thought? So, no. What I'm saying is that what the Nazis were doing was not related in any way to anything other than the pure evil, in a sense.

But what's going on in the Muslim world is somewhat just the pure hatred, but it's also a real beef that they have, that a lot of smart people think they have some good points. I don't think so. I mean, I shouldn't say they have no good points. I think on the fundamental issues, they don't have a good point in terms of Israel's legitimacy. But some smart people do.

I think it's largely jealousy. You don't think white people get extra bonus racist points for the same deed? They do, but I don't think there's a good reason for that. The Jewish people have been excellent at organizing. Absolutely excellent at it. See, that sounds like anti-Semitism to me. Well, suck it.

And honestly, so many Middle Eastern countries, organizing. Absolutely excellent at it. See, that sounds like anti-Semitism to me. Well, suck it. And honestly, so many Middle Eastern countries, like the people of the Middle East, they are outrageously jealous of it because they end up attacking each other. They cannot unify. They cannot organize in the same way. And then that turns into resentment.

And I think that happens a lot. There's also a flip side to that. I mean, there's a great camaraderie between the Jews and the Muslims in, I think, especially in New York. But I have a very close friend who's 60 years old. He was one of the last Jewish people to escape Lebanon. And he was smuggled out by the Muslims. Like, the Muslims saved his life.

They said that it was the Christians who sort of hated the Jews in Lebanon. They smuggled him out in a falafel truck? That's a rare story, I think. By the way, do you agree with the following? That we've come to the point now where it doesn't really matter, if it ever did, what policies or what government takes over in Israel, because in the end, the left can never take the side of what they see as white privilege over people of color. No matter what, no matter what the merits are that is no longer possible so it to me that means that no matter what

the people who or into that stuff can never take it is not just uh... corollary of what i was stating earlier about extra bonus points maybe but what do you what do you mean in in the intersectionality grievance Olympics, Israel can never win. Never. Cannot win. You said it's so much better than Noam said.

No, no, now it's pure color. It's Netanyahu, it's the settlements. No, they could raise all the settlements and Shimon Peres could come back from the grave and they would not be able to take Israel's side. Israel cannot win the intersectionality Olympics. And that's the anti-Smitic in an ill-honed omar and i i i do just says i think genuinely vile things

and not be displayed unless unless somehow they find corruption in her office as she becomes you grows into being a congresswoman it's impossible to unseat her now impossible so how many boxes she checks. Can we go to the big question about this notion of whether you can be anti-Israel, even ferociously so,

without being anti-Jewish? Which is, of course, what a lot of people are debating. And a lot of people are that way. A lot of people feel that way. Well, I think you can be. I work out at the JCC. I go to the Jewish Community Center all the goddamn time.

It doesn't look like it because I hurt my back. But outside of that, I mean, there are regular debates. I mean, there are people who feel a very strong sense of Jewish community and want to come together as a Jewish community, but they have mixed feelings about Israel. I mean, that happens. People are allowed to have nuanced attitudes and opinions. You can have mixed feelings about Israel.

You can criticize any Israeli policy, but I think if you would deny one people in the world the right to have their own nation state, I'd say that that national movement, that national liberation movement, is... Fair enough. I would deny them as well.

But if Jews and Jews alone can't have their own nation state, then I think that verges into anti-Semitism. Well, it could be motivated by anti-Semitism. It could also be motivated at the point I made earlier, that even if you suggested that England should be for people of Anglo-Saxon descent, you would get a lot of pushback. I think now the census... But Israel is not only for...

I mean, 20% of its citizens are Arabs. Right, but it's officially a Jewish state. The flag has a Jewish star on it. You know, Spain and Norway and all these Scandinavian countries have crosses on their flags. It doesn't mean that plenty of minorities live there. Yeah, and also Israel's a secular country, and it really always has been, right?

But there's no getting around the fact that this is explicitly stated as a Jewish state, which I don't have a problem with, but I think a lot of people would have a problem with any country saying we are for one particular group. Like the French? Well, yeah, if a French person said France should be for white

Catholic French people... No, but if French citizenship is, as it is in fact, defined broadly enough to include French Jews and French Muslims and French Catholics, then the French citizenship is not exclusive.

It's not exclusionary in that racist kind of way. Right, but Israel, although it has Arab citizens and Muslim citizens... Can I tell you the problem? Go ahead. The problem is that there are always scenarios where these highfalutin ideas that we really believe in our hearts, in certain scenarios they kind of fall apart. And one of them is when a democracy,

the expression of a democracy would mean probably genocide or something. And at that point you're like, well, something's got to give. I mean, if Israel was the home for the Jews and then there was white people like whoever, white liberals also growing up, and maybe they would become the majority. It wouldn't be, you might say, yeah, maybe it should just be a democracy

as long as Jews all over the world. But when it risks being a majority of people who will quickly put these, oppress these people and maybe murder these people, then, I don't know, how do you reconcile that? Is it immoral for the Jews to say, no? No, I don't believe it to be immoral, but I'm saying... You know, that practical reality is more important

than some, you know, idealistic notion of democracy. I agree with you, but those who say that Israel is racist are not thinking that far ahead. Yeah, but I'm saying... And then Benny Morris, have you read? So I saw an interview with Benny Morris or you read an interview with Benny Morris and he said something which, now Benny Morris was

a real champion for the Palestinians, so much so he was almost blacklisted in Israel as a historian which he popped every myth of any kind of fair treatment of the Palestinians throughout history. Is that a fair?? I mean, yet he became very, very pessimistic. So pessimistic about

the chance of a two-state solution, he said in an unguarded moment, he says, maybe it would have been better to have thrown all the Arabs out when we had the chance. This is what he said, which is right out of

Merik Ahana's playbook, and Merik Ahana was banned from the chance, is what he said, which is right out of Merik Ahana's playbook, and Merik Ahana was banned from the Knesset. He said, then to have not done it and go with this. And he says something which was so ugly, but don't think I'm endorsing it. I'm just saying what he said. He said, maybe ethnic cleansing is better than genocide, because at least...

Or some other cleaner solution. But this is the problem that everybody sees on the horizon. That at some point, demography is going to bring about some horrible situations where democracy is not going to become something that you can embrace. It's just not the biggest problem in the Middle East today. The Arab states could not care less about the Palestinians right now. They're all worried about Iran. They're all worried about Iran's

expansionist aims. You see the Saudis banging the whatever the tables about the Palestinians. Of course they don't. Did they ever really care about the Palestinians? At least they made an issue of it a few years ago. The Saudis are plum loco. When are we gonna crack that egg? The Saudis are plum loco. When are we gonna crack that egg?

The Saudis are not on your side, folks. I hope that I'm not saying anything offensive to anybody who's listening, because I'm trying to take it from all sides and be devil's advocate. That's my job. And there's nobody, you know, more pro-Israel than me, probably. But on

the other hand, I don't know. I think it's such a terrible time. I'm always worried about saying the wrong thing. But I don't know. I think it's such a terrible time. I'm always worried about saying the wrong thing. But I don't think I've said the wrong thing. I think that you can be very pro-Israel. And I mean, I am. No, you're not.

You say that to me. Say one pro-Israel thing. I'm very pro-Israel. God, they're good looking. God, they're good looking. What do you mean, what does that mean? If somebody's a white pro-Israel, what would you say? I would say that,

I mean, in the most profound way, it's my home. I mean, I have, no, I mean, my entire family was killed in the Holocaust. My grandfather was part of founding the state. My mother grew up there.

I mean, I've been going there since I was a child. But defend, but do you have some, that's not, that's pro-Israel, but I mean Yeah, it is pro-Israel. That's a personal attachment to Israel. How do you defend them against their, it's detractors. You can't tell them my family was born there.

I was about to say though, but I think that you can acknowledge... Tell me why you're pro-Israel. Why do I always... Because I don't believe you are. So you think that I don't think Israel should exist? I'm giving you every chance to tell me what you think. I'm trying to. Go ahead.

I think you're looking for, like, a particular answer. I'm not sure I have one. Because out of your mouth, quite often I hear the tropes, I hate that word, it's said all the time, of the anti-Israel people, complaints about all the issues

that people have with Netanyahu and the government and Israel. But why aren't I allowed to have a more nuanced and complicated opinion? The same way that, I mean, I love America. God knows. Imagine what would happen to me in Iran.

Do you know what I mean? Like I know for a fact I'd be torn to ribbons, right? It's just a fact. If you're lucky. If I'm lucky. Go ahead. But, you know, so I love America, but that doesn't mean that I don't have a complicated feeling about it.

Let's say electoral college reform. Just throw one thing out. Do you know what I mean? It's not the same thing because nobody questions America's right to exist. Talk to a Native American. You need to have, or to meet my standard of being pro-Israel,

you need to be able to make a somewhat compelling case for the moral legitimacy of Israel. And you need to know how it is that the occupied territories came into Israel's hands. You need to know exactly how many times Israel offered to make deals, how those deals were, they walked out without even a counter proposal. You need to understand that it was created by the United Nations. All the key facts. So you can say to somebody, okay, what's wrong here? I wanted to ask, and I'll turn over to you we have Peter Beinart's coming on

in a couple weeks and I was going to pose the following question to him I hope he doesn't hear it, but maybe it's alright I say that, if you was there ever a time can you point to a time when an Israeli leader Israeli Prime Minister came to a fork in the road,

and if he'd only gone this way as opposed to that way, if he only made the other decision, we would now have peace in the Middle East. Was there one time that they had that chance? No. No. I can't think of one. And that's why you should be pro-Israel. And then also, Sam Harris gave the answer. Maybe there is one. Maybe he'll have one. He said that, have you heard Sam Harris' philosophical defense of Israel? He says, you need to imagine if either side had absolute power, what would they do?

He says, well, we know what the Jews would do with absolute power. They have it. It wouldn't be worse. And he says, what would the Arab side do if they had absolute power? Probably be genocide. Something close to it. It wouldn't be worse. And he says, what would the Arab side do if they had absolute power? Probably be genocide. Something close to it. Peter has this thing, as you can imagine, I'm not a fan of Peter Beiner. But maybe you can pose

this to him. He's always like, writes these books. It's always because my son, who at the time, I don't know, was 10, 12 years old. He my son, who at the time, I don't know, was 10, 12 years old, he has an Israeli flag in his room, but what do I tell him when Israel does this and that?

And that's why I am who I am, I'm constant sort of scourge toward Israel. What do I tell my son? And I always am tempted to say, I don't know, Peter. He's your fucking son. You tell him whatever you want to tell him. But there's a reason Israel exists.

Hi, Peter. We'll see you in a couple of weeks. Let's get off Israel. I just want to say, because I actually believe that the biggest threat to Israel is the fact that American Jews have no fucking idea why it's important, why it's in the right. They're peeling off like crazy. You're a perfect example.

They don't know the basic facts and the basic history. She was trying to defend Israel just now. Don't take her side. I don't have to say the exact same thing that you say in order. You think about why you're really pro-Israel. No, because Israel gets a lot of flack in the world. And if that flack is correct, you should say, you know what? Maybe they're right.

Maybe we should take up roots and go somewhere else. Why shouldn't they? I don't think that they should. So, I mean, you're against the settlements, right? You believe the settlements are the reason that there's no peace? Because you always talk about the settlements. I'm against the settlements. It has nothing to do with the reason there's no peace. I think

that it is a very complicated situation. That doesn't mean I'm not pro-Israel. Okay. Alright, I'm sorry to put you on the spot. You don't... I'm happy to be on the spot.

Okay. So what are the other... Saurabh, what is the issue of the day that's really on your mind these days? I don't know. You said something just now that I found interesting in a comedy club. That whatever you said, I didn't even remember what it was, that you were like, I can't say that. I'm so worried about it now. And I'm constantly worried about it,

and I feel like it doesn't... You know, we're constantly asked to say, well, we're not like... We're not China. We're not this and that. We're free. Formally speaking, we have legal freedoms, but it doesn't feel free, right? No, it doesn't.

Can I say that I unplugged from just Facebook. I do a little tweeting still, a little tweeting, mostly to promote, but I unplugged completely from Facebook, I would say, about a month ago. I'm telling you, I feel like a visceral difference. In a good way?

In such a good way. I feel so much less afraid. This very fear that we're talking about this fear of self-expression this fear of god forbid i say what i actually think and it's misconstrued and then it's weaponized against me which is what everybody lives in right now right as in they'll dig up an old tweet and fuck you over because they didn't like what you had to say i swear to god that's gone and i lived with that i remember living with that every day and in the month that i have completely unplugged from Facebook,

it's not even in my system. But you don't worry when you're on stage. I'm not. But you see, it's easier for you. You know it's easier for you. Because I'm a big fag and fags can say whatever they want. Yes. Yes and no.

I hear what you're saying. There's certain things you can't say, but there's a lot of things you can say. And yet. You know, I mean, I don't think that my insides are fucked up. I don't. And, uh...

I'm not ashamed of anything you actually do. I'm not ashamed of what's cooking inside of myself. Among the things that people pilloried Louis C.K. for in that act, was that here or elsewhere? No, it wasn't here. Was kind of making fun of the non-binary thing. Could you make fun of non-binary?

Of gender non-binary people? Of course I could. Yeah, but you would still as like a... I also, mind you, I bring a different cred to it in that I came out at 15. I landed in the Boston Alliance of Gay and Lesbian Youth. I was surrounded by trans people and we absolutely called each other trannies.

I got called a tranny. I called Sterling a tranny. Yeah, but you would still get shit for it. Sterling was the head bitch in charge. But is it not? HPIC. Because I'm sort of an outside observer, but a student of this stuff.

But it seems to me that just regular old white gay guys are now somehow not they've been sort of dethroned out of the well cis white gay guys are you know thought to have no they're thought to have the most amount try to take my crown

the most amount of privilege right but you're not white we can't call you white but sure you can I'm the whit Caucasus Mountains. I'm the whitest guy at the table. But, like, I think, you know, it really has to do with how global life have you actually lived? To what extent is your life actually inclusive?

To what extent are you exposed to people from different walks of life? And to what extent do you respect those other people in how you are and in who you are? So, Rabbits, I don't want to start trouble. It's the last thing I want to do. But you are a God-fearing Catholic. What do you think of Mehran's lifestyle? I don't want to start trouble. Hate the sinner.

What is it? Love the sinner, hate the sin. What is that? Listen, if I give you a half a hit of ecstasy you and I are going to run about that's the reality

I could drug you on Manhattan can you give me ecstasy I don't I don't want to put him on the spot for that question you might talk about it

over a beer afterwards because it's exactly what we're saying it's baiting right he might he might step on some landmine and

I would say this. In my daily life as a Catholic, I'm so worried about my own shit that I... There are public policy differences that I will lay out, and I'm happy to say that I don't believe in gay marriage. Wow. What about, do you believe the Gay Sex Act is a sin? I think you should get a nose job.

Did anything change? I have a gigantic nose. You say you don't have such trouble, but you actually have a nose. Your nose seems rather... Middle Eastern. Slightly, but not as big as mine. But the sex act is a sin or not?

Oh, damn. Please. These are questions that have to be addressed. They don't have to a sin or not? Oh, damn. Please. Please. Is it ever? These are questions that have to be addressed. They don't have to be addressed. Don't answer. Don't answer.

That's Catholicism. It's sexy. Listen. It's super sexy. It's sexier. So I made an analogy. The show we did yesterday, we're not going to be able

to air on Sirius, but it's out on podcast. It's a shame. It's fine. It was a good show. But I made an analogy on that, but I was kind of pleased with my analogy, so I'm going to say it again, which is that I said, if I drew a line on the floor down the restaurant and I told you to walk as close as you can to that line, you would walk right up against

it and you'd probably step over the line. I said, if I said, okay, now do the same thing except I drew the line right on the edge of a cliff. Oh, yeah. You wouldn't get probably within a foot of that line.

That's very real. And that's what's going on when we are canceling people, when people are being ruined for trying to find out where they're lying. When they know there's a cliff there,

they don't get within a foot of it and that foot is where all the interesting thoughts come from. That's where people, that's where the good jokes are, that's where everything. So what we're doing by putting that cliff there with no margin

for error is ruining everything. Fuck the cancelers. I don't even see them. Good analogy, huh? I think it's a great analogy. I really do. I'm not sure that's an in. I don't think so. But let me throw this out there. I don't know if you ever, RuPaul, the drag queen, she says about the I can't say drag queen anymore.

The difference that she says between drag and trans, she says that drag is comedy and trans is tragedy, which was a very scary thing for her to say, right? But to the extent that we have to be able to foster a sense of play where people can say things and it can be comic, it can be party without everyone feeling like, oh my God, I'm about to get trespassed on. My rights are about to be trampled. My personhood, my identity is going to be erased. preserve an open and playful conversation such that if so Rob wanted to tell me something totally crazy about how gross my gay sex acts are and I promise you they're gross.

When they're done right. If done right at all. I'm telling you it is my responsibility to protect that in him. As someone who is at the table with him to say fucking yes he said that to me. And he said it to my face.

And people are allowed to say shit to each other. I'll answer for so, Rab. I'll answer for so, Rab. Because no one will let him answer. Fact is, it is a sin according to Christian doctrine. I don't make the rules. Do you enforce them? I don't enforce them either.

But if God came down and we knew that he existed and he said, I'm sorry, I don't like gay people. I'm sorry. I don't enforce them either, but if God came down and we knew that he existed, and he said, I'm sorry, I don't like gay people. I'm sorry. I don't know what to tell you. But God, that's not right. Yeah, I know it's not right, but I'm God. What are you going to do about it? What am I going to do? That's what he says. Why is it a he?

I would flick my cigarette and be like, worth it. Can I tell you guys? I don't know if it could be a he or a she, but we'll use he because in English, we typically use he when we are uncertain about the gender. That is by convention. At Christmas morning, you're like, that is heterosex.

That is the patriarchy. It just happens to be the rules of the language. Wait, can I just tell you guys something? One second. So on Christmas, you give your kids a present, like an expensive present, and they just play with the box. And they just love the box.

This is what God maybe is looking down at gay people and saying, what are you doing? I gave you the vagina. I wrapped it up nicely. That's not what that's for. You're playing with it. No? The dicks were great. Thank you so much.

You're playing with the box. I love the box. Go ahead. What did you want to say? I wanted to tell... What are you doing? You know, there's that gay joke that if that were true, they would have put a hole in your butt, right? This is what you interrupted me for?

No, I interrupted you for something else. Do you know that Saurabh came from Iran and moved to Utah, which I thought was so fascinating. That is interesting. That is worth interrupting me. Thank you. And you didn't become Mormon. And will you tell a little bit of what you were telling me before that you came to Utah because your uncle was there?

I had an uncle who had settled in the U.S. When he was 13? I came when I was 13, but he had settled in 1979. I hear Iranian, Utah. I'm thinking hotel business. No, no. It was a red roof in. No, no.

He studied industrial agriculture. He was my second kid. More the Indians, I guess, in the hotel. I will ask you this personal question. I used to watch the 700 Club a lot when I was a kid. I still do. I watch. I think Pat Robertson's a hoot and Ben

the black guy it was a black guy and he one time there was a segment that he did where he told about before he became whatever evangelical he is he tried Catholicism he tried something and then I'd known

some other people who converted to religions later in life and I'm wondering if there's a profile of a person who does that were you always searching for something did you always feel something was missing in your life yeah, I was a Marxist in college

you were a Marxist in college and then I gradually, politically shifted to the right. And then Catholicism came much later. But the searcher aspect is true. It is true. And so Marxism filled that void for you. Marxism is a very religious phenomenon. It has an idea that history moves in a predetermined direction

and then this sort of revolutionary apocalypse settles all of history's injustices do you believe it's justified to question Marxist with regard to immigration policy in other words do you think Marxist should be given low priority in terms of immigration

pure Marxist pure Marxist coming to America yeah totally given low priority in terms of immigration. Pure Marxists? Pure Marxists coming to America. Yeah, totally. But if you feel that way, and Marxism is like a religion, are there any other religions that maybe would have... Perhaps you would want less of them here.

Fewer. Dan is leading us down that slippery slope. Dan is really in rare forms. You're going to get us shut down. I think it's perfectly fine as we do ask. Certainly when I filled it out, this was long before Trump. If you fill out the green card application, there's a question that says, have you ever been a member, if I remember it right, of a member of a Nazi party,

of communist parties, or other totalitarian movements, something like that. I certainly remember this when I was 13 years old. I printed it out at some copy shop in Tehran because we had to fill it out to sort of finalize our green card, and we checked the box no, which was true about my family. But I don't think of any of any of the sort of Abrahamic religions as totalitarian

so but I think it's perfectly fine to exclude Marxists but in a theoretical world where there might be a religion say that promoted something horrible in a theoretical

just like my theoretical sentient sentient right that's what I was going to ask you that it's like that question it is like that question happily I don't think religion

can be a cover for any and all practices. And we say, well, it's a religion, so we have... I would ban Scientology. Not only just as immigration, I would ban it. I would also ban Scientology. Did you go through other religions?

Because you said your mom was into Buddhism. No, no, no. But as a serious matter, no. It was never a question that like maybe Jewish... Because we'll take anybody with open arms. No, that's not true. We don't want you. We don't want you.

We want you if you're sincere. Yeah, but it's hard to prove that. Well, we're very skeptical. Cut off your foreskin. Why would you want to be Jewish? Well, his foreskin's probably already cut off because he was born Muslim. Muslims do that as well. So listen, Dan, I sense you're alluding to the Muslim ban,

and it is a fair, you know, you're making a legit point of logic. I don't think a Muslim ban's a good idea, but I also don't think that because it's a religion, that means we can't touch it. Well, there are ordinances. What is it? In the Netherlands, you have to shake a hand. Like, you can't not shake a lady's hand. Like,

they are trying to say, you know, they are splitting hairs. Or if you accuse someone in court, you have to show your face. You can't hide behind a burqa. I think that's a perfectly fine requirement.

Yeah, I think that's a fine requirement. And I didn't, you know, neither of us was, calling it the Muslim ban is, I think, buying into a rhetoric, but whatever it was called, the travel ban, I don't think either of us supported it.

But yeah, I understand. You place these hypotheticals. Like, I wouldn't, if they wanted to bring in 20 million Hasidic Jews and people objected to that. You'd oppose that. I wouldn't call them anti-Semites for opposing it, you know, that's for sure. And there's always tough issues. On the immigration debate, we'll get into it. And I have a lot of sympathy for the erosion of the social fabric. I have a lot

of sympathy for the fact that given the profile of where immigrants are coming from, the country will become less pro-Israel, maybe permanently less pro-Israel. But we need the labor. I mean, there's no way around that. And I think that the people who are opposing Trump, even if he built the wall and did everything they fantasized he would do, very quickly we'd realize, oh, we've got to let more in because who's going to do the jobs? But how many people does America...

Wait, do you disagree with me, sir? I would say that I say this as an immigrant, that it's legitimate for Native Americans, and I don't mean Native Americans, but Native-born citizens of the West, to say that we want

an orderly immigration system. We want to have some say in who comes in on what basis. So the idea that any restriction whatsoever is illegitimate, I think is wrong. But especially the U.S., which is not an ethno-sectarian country then we have to

we have to be very careful about on what basis we exclude people which is why i've always opposed the even a narrowly tailored quote-unquote muslim ban i think is very un-american but if you're a small you know look if you're poland and European Union says, you know, you have to accept 200,000 or 20,000 people who are, you're a mono-ethnic state. And if you don't, then you're unwelcome from a sort of world of the good and the just and the civilized. That's really, that's unfair I think I mean I say this as I said as an immigrant but that every person has a right

to every other country okay but the consequences of that are you're going to get an invited backlash and I just want to be reasonable about it

I don't want a sort of like France where it's like this sort of these you have these unassimilated communities that live on I want a sort of like France where it's like this sort of, you have these unassimilated communities that live on the in the sort of

the suburbs of major cities. And they're, you know, they totally reject the mainstream culture. They meet the police fear to tread. In order for police to go into these suburbs that are majority sort of immigrant North African Muslim, they have to first negotiate with a sort of tribal chieftain. What the fuck is that? No.

That's all really true, huh? That's kind of true. That is true. I've reported from it. So the Fox News will maybe exaggerate and say there are just entire no-go zones in vast amounts of French territory. No.

But there are no-go zones in Britain, in French territory? No. But there are no go zones in Britain, in France, and elsewhere. Would you also agree that the most... It's nuts. The ugliest thing that Trump does is to choose the ugliest arguments for limiting immigration that he could find. There's so many arguments

that even the immigrants could say. I understand. He talks about them being rapists and murderers and dirty. Tucker Carlson talked about them being dirty. He is tickling the poor. And it's not true. I mean, even if it weren't true,

I'd be okay with it. But it's not fucking true. I agree. And it's despicable. He is manipulating the stupid and the poor. But I think it actually is not in his own best interest to do that. I think he actually limits the support he would have for a lot of these concepts.

To create infighting, it does serve his best. In a kleptocratic oligarchy, to create unrest internally that's based on identity and based on people trying to keep other people out, it absolutely serves a runaway government. Maybe. I don't think so. Anyway, we have to wrap things up. What time do we have? We're at a little bit over an hour, and I think Saurabh needs to go.

He's got a deadline tomorrow, right? I'd like to give the people a little bit more, but I know that Saurabh has to go. Let me say, you are now the editorial page editor of the New York Post. The op-ed editor. Op-ed editor. I have one guy, my boss, who's the editorial page editor. Who writes the paper, op-eds? Are you one of the...

The editorials. It's not me. I manage our columnists, the byline people. So you're like the James Taranto of the New York Post. Yes, exactly. How's your Farsi, by the way? Is it still conversational, but not good at literary person? We have...

Are we going to do a quiz? We have a friend Are we going to do a quiz? No, so... So, this is... We have a friend that studied Farsi, Tim Doner. He'd probably be better at it. All right. This is not going to be

interesting to listen, but I'll be curious. So, this... Eric... No, Eric Brandel. Yes. He was... You guys...

Anybody should Google him. He was the... What was his title? He wrote the... He was, among other things, my predecessor, yeah. But he also wrote the editorial. Then he later was the editorial paper.

And he was a genius. I mean, this guy was, in my opinion, I mean, he had a book of, he was just fantastic. And he was also a heroin addict. Oh, he was? Yeah, and he died young. And it was this amazing story of this tragic genius life. And at that time, he was the,

he ran the editorials for The Post during the time of the Korean boycott and Crown Heights in a really hot time. And he was just brilliant. And, you know, anyway,

so that's a... I'm already twitching for my heroine. Are you familiar with Dean Obadala? Yeah. Because I mentioned before the show,

I think you look a bit like him. You're like a young, handsome Dean Obadala. He's a better looking, for sure. But we should probably have Dean on this show. I think you look a bit like him. You're like a young, handsome Dean. He's a better looking for sure. But we should probably have Dean on this show. I've asked him. He's on the list.

We got to go. Anything else that's interesting that's on your mind? Have we talked about abortion? We have, but we didn't get to the bottom of the issue. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I still wanted an answer to my hypothetical question. I don't like answering hypothetical questions. It's a complete waste

of time. The one where Aristotle and all those dumb Greek philosophers think about. And we talked about gay sex. With their stupid hypotheticals. We talked about it. That's a classic dodge, too. I don't answer hypotheticals. I didn't say I don't answer. I just think that there are much more...

Okay, I have a friend who's eight months pregnant. I mean, come on now. Kill it. I'm just trying to... Just fucking kill it. No, because the reason I oppose that hypothetical is, for me, the abortion issue comes down to, yes, there's the issue of the sovereignty of a woman over her body, and that's important. Thank you. But it's also the issue of, to what extent, there's the issue of the sovereignty of a woman over her body and that's important, but it's also the issue

of to what extent is a fetus human life? That has to be a factor. That has to be a... Well, you think that that has to be a factor. And there's another issue. Hold on. There's another issue which is, even if you think you have a right to remove the fetus, that's not the same thing as the right

to kill it. You think that. Most of the time you can remove it. You guys think that. Maybe I think something differently, and I'm not saying that I do. Do you enjoy veal? You can say... I'm actually a vegetarian. Hold on. You can say that you have total autonomy over your body, so I decide I

want this out. But does that mean... As I have many, many, many times... How does that... I've actually never had to worship. How does that also mean you have the right to kill it if it could be kept alive for medical science? In like a cage? An incubator. What do you mean like in a cage?

See, she won't, she would obsess me. No, because we're not, it's just because we're in it. Because we have never ever tried to discuss something that would be more frustrating. She's like, she's got like, she's like. Take the baby out, stick it in an incubator and let someone to take it. She's adept at all these anti-gravity moves.

I don't know what kind of an answer but she will never stick to a subject. Okay, Saurabh, it's been a pleasure to have you on the show. I really liked meeting you. He's our most soft. You can ask him your identitarian question. You can ask that later if he's got time. Go ahead. Okay, so you wrote a book about art and how it has become increasingly sort of identity-driven. Gone are the days of seeking truth and beauty in art.

Which, we could take an hour and have a lot of drinks. But you call these people who would flock to art based on identity, identitarians, right? Which is the name of the white genocide movement. Yeah, they both embrace... Was that an intentional connection, calling them identitarians? In the 90s,

the sort of Judith Butlers of the world, meaning the sort of postmodernists who are obsessed with queer identity and so forth, would use the term identitarian to refer to themselves. We have identitarian concerns. And then the racist

hard right also started saying, we're identitarians too. Come 2002, that was like, it's all over Europe. It's basically the white nationals movement of Europe. But they took the term that was already being used. That was being used sociologically. I had a harder time finding the provenance of the...

I had a harder time finding it used sociologically and a much easier time finding it used. You are... He came in ready to do bad. Oh my god! And you totally... It didn't hurt that you're handsome. It did. It helped so much. You totally tamed the wild beast.

We have to go. So, Amari, it's been my, like, wanting to meet you forever, and I'm very happy that I did. New York Post, everybody. Thank you very much, everybody. Good night. Cheers.