The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Avi Klein and Ramy Youssef

Episode Date: February 1, 2019

Avi Klein and Ramy Youssef

You're listening to The Comedy Cellar, live from the table, on the Riotcast Network, riotcast.com. Good evening, everybody. Welcome to The Comedy Cellar show here on Sirius XM Channel 99. We're here at the back table of The Comedy Cellar. My name is Noam Dwarman. I'm the owner of The Comedy Cellar. Next to me is my good friend Mr. Dan Natterman. I'm a little disappointed in Dan because I told him like for three weeks we're going to have dinner. Anyway. You didn't

you suggested we might do it on the first of February but you never solidified the date so I made other plans. You asked me and I said yeah I think it's on. Anyway, whatever. It's okay. It'll be fine without you. Avi Klein is our guest. Avi Klein is a psychotherapist and a contributor

to the New York Times. He wrote two columns I've seen in the last year. One about Louis C.K. and one about generally men just suffering from guilt from Me Too moments. I don't know if that's a fair way to put it. And Rami Youssef. Doesn't that name sound familiar? Wasn't there a... There might have been. I don't know if that's a fair way to put it. And Rami Youssef. Doesn't that name sound familiar?

Wasn't there a... There might have been. Ixnay. Yeah, there might have been like somebody that was... Was it Ramzi Youssef? Yeah, that was a famous terrorist. You're not he. No.

It's fairly close. It's very close, yeah. You get asked that a lot? My whole life, yeah. You still haven't made it yet. It's been close. It's very close, yeah. Do you get asked that a lot? My whole life, yeah. You still haven't made it yet. It's been a thing. Yeah, I'm trying to overshadow him. Trying to break through?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's hard. Rami Youssef, I think there's a union rules, you might have to change that name. Anyway, Rami Youssef. I don't think the terrorist is in SAG. Rami Youssef is a New York City-based stand-up comedian.

He may be seen performing regularly at the Comedy Cellar. So can I just tell you guys something? So, you know, it all dovetails with the Me Too stuff, and I'm really upset right now because somebody named Phoebe Robinson

wrote on Instagram From Two Dope Queens. Right. Right? I guess, yeah. From Two Dope Queens. Right. Right? I guess, yeah. From Two Dope Queens. She did a video where she complained about the treatment at another comedy club,

which I'm not commenting on that. I'm sure she's... The treatment of women. Is that what it was about the treatment? I don't know. I'm asking. No, it was...

Hi, I'm Perrielle. I'm here, too. No, it was actually that somebody showed up. I think this is what you're referring to. A comedian... Oh, that somebody showed up. Anyway, she was, hi, I'm Pariel. I'm here too. No, it was actually that somebody showed up. I think this is what you're referring to. A comedian. Somebody showed up. I don't want to give it too much air because I don't want to misstate it and cause any

feud with her because I'm not disagreeing or anything with her. So the point is that, so all the way down, finally, in all these comments, a waitress who used to work here, who, you know, was prickly. Like, I never got along with her. I read that. But she writes the following. Weighted tables in my early 20s at the Comedy Cellar and still unpacking the damage. It's a fucking dumpster fire there. Female waste at comedy clubs are sex objects and bitches.

We have to do better. Now, I don't know what she... Could you turn your sound up a little bit, Noam? One second. They set this up already. I don't know from that, actually, whether she's referring to management, whatever. Maybe she's referring to comedians, whatever it is.

Most likely. But I can't comment on it. But it's so upsetting. I mean, we've had like, I don't know, a thousand waitresses, you know, waiters and waitresses. What part of it's upsetting, though, that she had a bad experience? I mean, I know you and you probably feel bad

that she had a bad experience also, right? No. I mean, I know you and you probably feel bad that she had a bad experience also, right? No. I mean, I would. Yes. Do I feel bad she had a bad experience? Yes. Should I speak honestly? I don't know.

Speak honestly. I always found her to be, she's nice at times, but a toxic employee who was never happy, always, and this is a very rare, like we don't have many old employees saying, as a matter of fact, some old employees chimed in to defend us. I certainly, and nobody, I mean, I wasn't even managing the place at the time. Ava was managing the place, and Ava's like a saint. Like me?

No, she really is. She's like the most gentle. Everybody just adores this woman. And she used to hang out with the comedians, and that's a rough and tumble kind of thing. But it's not necessarily an abusive thing. It's just like comedians and the way they talk and whatever it is.

And nobody's forced, no waitress is forced to hang out with them here. It's not like they can't the way they talk and whatever it is. And nobody's forced, no waitress is forced to hang out with them here. It's not like they can't... Well, we don't know what happened necessarily with her. I would certainly not be against her coming on the podcast. Oh, I would love that. Although my guess is she would not be... I would love to hear her side.

She would not desire to do so, but the invitation would certainly be open. So maybe there's something to the story that I don't know. Yeah, maybe she was so toxic because something terrible was going open. Well, so maybe there's something to the story that I don't know. Yeah, maybe she was so toxic because something terrible was going on. Well, maybe. Or not. But the predilection in today's day and age to just to go public and try to tear down anybody that you've ever had a bad experience with

and tarnish their name in a way that they can't answer. Like, I'd like to answer her. I'm not going to get into it. I'll just be attacked or whatever it is. It's just a terrible thing that goes on now, and it's quite unfair. It is possible she had some legitimate bad experience.

Thanks, Dan. I didn't know that. I'm just saying that. That's why we would certainly like to talk to her if she's willing Unless I was the bad experience But the point is this If you had a discreet bad experience So then I guess if you go on And you give the detail of that experience

Or whatever it is But what you do is I don't know if she's talking about comedians She's talking about me, she's talking about Ava and you give the detail of that experience or whatever it is. But what you do is you just, like, I read that. I don't know if she's talking about comedians, she's talking about me, she's talking about Ava. So it's either, like, be more specific. Like, it just, the entire place becomes slimed. You know, and that's just not fair.

Like, I don't know even how to defend myself, you know. And believe me, I'd like to go public and slime a whole bunch of people who work. Like, does everybody just think that because somebody works here, they were always in the right? We have people working here. We have waitresses working here 10, 12, 15, 20, 25 years. That's unheard of in the restaurant industry. Linda's worked here, I don't want to say embarrassing, since like 1990. I mean, so, I mean, it's just nothing about the, and I think that's a more fair way to judge what's really going on in a place.

And one particular disgruntled employee is, well, what are the overall patterns there? If you see a place where people are constantly leaving high turnover, that says something. If you see a place where people are working, essentially, their adult lives, they stay in one job in one place, a waitressing job. That says something about the fact that it can't be that bad, you know? And, well, anyway. Avi Klein. So Avi Klein. So Avi Klein is a psychotherapist.

Now, let me tell you something about psychotherapy. I heard about this. Tell me about psychotherapy. What did you hear already? I heard you have... I warned him. Who opened their trap? I just, I gave him fair warning because we don't ambush here.

I'm curious to hear. Tell me. That you're a psychotherapy skeptic. That's all. I'm worse than that. I'm a psychotherapy detractor, which is not the same thing as what that says. So, hey, quiet down. King! All right. Psychotherapy detractor, which is not the same thing as a therapist. So, hey, quiet down. Keith!

All right, so listen. This is what I think about therapy. It's not as bad as you might think. I think that the process of talking to somebody about your problems is extremely therapeutic. Sure. What I have trouble believing is that they actually can teach you something on the blackboard in the university, which actually unravels in a scientific way, anything that's repeatable or verifiable. I feel like in a way, in other words, I, so this is, this is what I said.

This will get you mad, but I'm just being honest. You can't judge me. If you judge me, you couldn't look yourself in the mirror tomorrow. So I have you really over a barrel here. I really got you where I want you. So this is the thing. I could show up and say, I'm here. I'm the plumber.

I'm here to fix your toilet. And in 15 minutes, they would know I don't know a fucking thing about fixing a toilet. I could say, what was the example you gave me today? A yoga teacher. I'm here to teach you yoga. They'd be like, this dude doesn't know a fucking thing. But I could say, okay, my name is Mr. Dorman. I'm your therapist.

I'm telling you, 10 years would go by. They would have no idea. Wow. I was not a therapist. I'd be like, oh, how do you feel about that? Have you thought about this? And more than that, I don't think I'd be like, oh, well, how do you feel about that? Have you thought about this? And more than that, I don't think I'd be faking it. I think I could bring mature insight as a guy who's lived 56 years

and has kind of a good high emotional intelligence. I think I would actually have a good conversation with these people, and I would help them. Maybe. I'm open to that. I bet you could do it. Well, let's go to the next step. This is probably unethical, but hear me out.

One day, when you have a new patient, I would like to be in the office to receive them. We'll call you Avi, and we'll see how it goes. I agree that you might be able to fool people, but that doesn't mean that psychotherapy is invalid. I think it's valid in the sense that it is absolutely helpful to talk about your problems, A. And B, I think certain people are insightful. You're skeptical about the expertise part of it.

I'm skeptical of the science of it. I find that there's six different theories. I think that's fair. I mean, well, I think that's fair. And some psychotherapists have said nutty things. So it's reasonable to question, you know, like you can come up with some weird ideas about human motivation and things like that. Right. I do think that they're, I think it's in progress.

I think psychotherapy is trying to be more scientific. Like physics. Yeah, and yeah, it's evolving. So, for instance, if I was going to really tease this point out, I would ask you the following question. Okay. Tell me something you learned in school about the way the human mind, scientific, about the way we know the human mind works that is counter to the way a layman believes it works.

Well, I'll tell you, this is sort of fundamental to the way that I work, which I do think is a little harder for an amateur to do. Because we think that our thoughts, we spend all of our time making arguments like you do on this show. And that's essential. That's how you change someone's mind, by reasoning with them. And my orientation is really that our emotions are what dictate our behaviors and our thoughts. And that you have to help someone kind of pay attention to that. We don't always want to pay attention to that. And that requires, I think, more skill to help someone drop into their feelings that

they've spent their lifetime trying not to feel. And that skill came from something they taught you in a textbook or from experience? Well, mostly experience. The textbook gets you started, but you need a lot of practice. Well, who are you practicing on? Yeah. Same thing in surgery. You've got to do it the first time.

You do, yeah. As a student, I mean, you practice, and I would have to sometimes record or write down what happened in the session, and I'd look it over with a supervisor, and we'd see what happened. Now, when people come to see you for help, what do you call those people? Alternately, my clients or my patients, depending. I'm against the use of the word client. Oh, yeah?

These are mental patients. They should be treated as such. Also, I think client is... I think patient also gives it more heft in terms of the scientific credibility than a client. A client is somebody who redecorated their house. You're trying to keep somebody from jumping off a bridge. That's a patient. Hopefully rarely, yeah.

Well, otherwise, why are they going? I mean, are they in major distress? They can be. They can be at times, yeah. I mean, any of your therapists are. I mean, I, any of your therapists are. I mean, you are. And that's the other piece about having some expertise is like maybe day to day, yeah, you can give someone good advice, but they also want to know that they're with someone who can handle them when they're really vulnerable.

If you can't handle them at their worst, you don't deserve them at their best. Let me tell you, I can tell you that. So I read your Louis C.K. piece. Yeah. And I read the one that came out before that. I read them in opposite order. The Me Too piece. But this is what I got from the Louis C.K.

Let me show you what a good therapist I am. What I got from the Louis C.K. piece, and I invite everybody to read it. Maybe you want to pause this and then read the piece. What was the headline? Oh, I didn't like the title. A Psychotherapist's Plead to Louis C.K. Louis C.K. Avi Klein, if you Google that. You know, it's interesting.

Just everybody should always bear in mind that people who write op-ed columns don't get to put the headlines. Right, that's right. And quite often the headline is the most offensive part of the thing. Yeah, yeah. But they really don't have a choice in the headlines. Anyway, what I've read, what I got from that was a tremendous sense of your loss of losing your Louis CK. That's fair. And that you wanted your Louis back.

And you yearned for him to do the things so that you could have him back. I think that's a piece of what motivated it. I was trying to, like, I've been following, obviously, what's been going on with him. Actually, maybe you should just give a little synopsis of what you wrote. What I thought I wrote? Yeah, yeah. My sense of what I wrote? Yeah. I, geez, it's been a while.

I haven't read it in a while. You started with how you used to show all your patients. I used to show his work and then Every new patient would watch a Louis C. Dicker. No, not every new patient, but for some new patients where I was it was like, if it felt right for them then I would show them his clip

I think with Conan about his cell phone. Everyone loves that clip. How we live our lives on the cell phone. Is that where he goes to his daughter's school and everybody's got their cell phone out filming the. No, not about that, but,

or maybe that's before the clip I'm thinking of, but then like how, you know, we use it to distract ourselves from how hard it is to feel our feelings. And he pulls over to the side of the road and he cries. Okay. And, and that after the accusations and his,

his acceptance of those accusations and him dropping out, that honestly, it wasn't that part. It was his refusal to then, when he came back, to really address what happened. That felt really disappointing to me. To many people. This is what I found so interesting. Because I was thinking, what is this guy,

what does Louis owe to this dude about addressing it? Maybe if he were to actually address it honestly, it would get him in more trouble. I'm sure it could. The truth hurts. It's hard. Right.

So I'm like, from just talking about Thurman, he wrote an apology. No, he doesn't owe me anything. I mean, it's hard. Right. So I'm like, so like from just like my third, like he wrote an apology. No, he doesn't owe me anything. I mean, like what am I? I'm only, it's only my opinion. He doesn't have to. Well, but you're critical of it.

So like he wrote an apology and he apologized. And I, you found fault in the apology. Yeah. I did too. Yeah. However, when I went back and read it, I realized it was better than I thought it was. I was, I was thrown off by the use of the word dick and stuff like that. Agreed.

Which screwed up. But he said something there which was really, I think, the whole ball of wax was when I used to ask, I thought it was just a question. And now I realize it was a predicament. Yeah. So that was boom. That was like insight. Yes. That's like the best part of Louis.

Right. And then he went in, I think prior to that actually, apologized to each of the women individually. Is that true? That's in the last part of the New York Times. I tried to look that up and I didn't find that anywhere. Oh, yeah, it's in the last part of the New York Times story that he apologized to each of the women. So, as a matter of fact, you might remember this.

One of the women he apologized to actually said, no, that wasn't me, and that was part of the story too. So, they apologized to actually said, no, that wasn't me. And that was part of the story too. So they apologized to the women and now decides he wants to come back. And that's what I say. And the disappointment that you feel like, you're like, my Louis would have, he would have talked about this

and he would have, and it was like, so I'm going to criticize him for not being the guy that I built him up to be. I don't think that's quite right. Because I think it's more like fans have a relationship with any kind of performer, with any kind of artist. And maybe it's unfair to idealize them, but we do have a relationship. It is unfair to idealize them.

But it's also people aren't fans of Louis because of his letters. Like, people aren't fans of Louis because of his stand-up. So for him to address something so seriously via letter is not as satisfying as doing it on stage. And as a performer, for me, it's like if I'm on stage, and this will happen in so many venues, if I'm on stage and there's, like, and this happens all the time in New York, there's, like, a siren going on outside, right? Like, you can't ignore the siren. You can be on stage and be like, oh, I wonder what

that is out there. People laugh and then you can keep doing your set while that siren's going off. But if you ignore it, you just sound like a fucking idiot. It's just weird. No one can listen to your set because they're kind of like, wait, how are you not acknowledging this thing that we're all hearing at the same time? What if you're at a Broadway play and a

big siren, I guess they have to just go through it. But stand-up's better than Broadway. I understand that, but even at a Broadway show, at some point, there's something so distracting. Like, for example, when Lincoln was shot, I'm assuming they said, I don't know if the play went on.

But it's not that Louis has to get on stage and be fully honest or whatever. It's just an acknowledgement of sorts, an analysis. The dude's brilliant. To take that brilliance on this topic, he could just be part of a conversation in a really interesting way. Can I ask Avi, as a therapist, to what he attributes the fact that Louis is not

addressing these things? I don't think that's fair to... Ethical... So you wrote... I don't want to get past Louis. Which leads me back to my disappointment with Louis. Who's going to... Ethical... So you wrote... Which leads me back to my disappointment with... Who's going to... What's the radio people? No, FCC. He'll get in trouble with the psychoanalysis.

It wouldn't feel right to use whatever tiny amount of power I have to psychoanalyze someone from afar. It used to be a rule that it was an ethical violation of the psychoanalytic standards of practice to diagnose anybody that you didn't examine yourself. Right, you're not supposed to do that.

They've changed that now, as long as it's Donald Trump, it's okay. But other than that... That's why they have that in all the tabloids. It's like such-and-such doctor says that this celebrity got all this plastic surgery. I invite an impressionist here. I want impressions. I invited a therapist.

Which leads me back to my disappointment with Louis C.K.'s return to the stage. If he's changed at all, he seems to have transformed into an online troll intent and shocking and provoking. When I heard that, I was like, do you remember Louis C.K.'s bit that he did in SNL about pedophilia?

And I like his comedy. But if he had, let's just transpose it and pretend that the stuff he's doing now he'd done in SNL, which wouldn't have gotten him trolled. And let's say he did that pedophilia bit now. People would be calling him a troll. Never mind that this stuff was leaked anyway and it wasn't online because he never wanted anybody to hear it. But I'm saying this is all us projecting on him his new circumstance. All of a sudden,

the pedophilia bit, but what's unfair to him is that he can only be Louis. He can't start reinventing himself and writing comedy that is not what naturally occurs to him. No, he should. He should do that comedy. I don't have a problem with that comedy,

but it feels false when there's this other piece, like you were trying to say. The oddest siren in the room. Yeah, that's unacknowledged. Then it suddenly sounds, everything sounds a little weird to me. We have to acknowledge the very loud banter of our comedian friends over on the next table. Guys, it's too loud!

Well, that'll last about five seconds of silence. I'm sorry, Keith, it's too loud! And to be fair, I thought at the time he should have handled it differently, but that was more for his own self-interest. I was like, just say what people want to say. Do you think comedians owe anything to their fans in terms of a relationship with their fans? No.

No? No, I don't. I think that it sounds good on paper, but if you really begin to examine it, it's untenable, and it'll be a total random standard. But people keep saying, right, like, let the audience decide. Right? Like, yeah. He's selling out.

Well, I think it's weird, though. I mean, so I decided. I decided I didn't like, like, it didn't, it's not so funny to me when this piece isn't acknowledged. It's hard to, it's hard to... Yeah, that's valid. Yeah. But to plead devil's advocate for one second, I don't remember who said this.

Is there any other kind of thing you ever say? Go ahead. It may have been you. I was about to give you a compliment. I'm the devil you're advocating. How many times does Louis have to acknowledge this? And is it every single time he gets on stage? No. One time would be

just a joke. But didn't he? He just talked about the money he lost. He hasn't done it. He actually said the opposite. I mean, he said stuff which could make it, it was flippant kind of about the whole situation. That's the part that felt trollish to me. The best thing about Louis is

how vulnerable he is. So to not be vulnerable about this thing we're all talking about. To answer your question, he doesn't have to do anything. We'd love him. We'd love him to really delve into this shit because it would be fascinating as fuck. Yeah, but I think that's... But would it be funny? It wouldn't be...

It would be hilarious. First of all, I don't care if it's funny. I want to hear it. It would get him... Well, that's different, though. Listen, you're a therapist. Yeah. You know what dudes like this

are thinking about this stuff. And if he were to say that stuff, if he were to really get honest, he would get himself in more trouble. Because nobody's ready... Maybe I'm naive, but I have... I really think he's a great artist. He is a great artist. Nobody is ready

to allow for any subtlety. And if he admitted something dark about human nature. But like, see, I'm kind of with Dan. I'd be really interested to hear that get processed culturally, like how people would make sense of that. Because I do think, I find the outrage pretty tedious. That was a big motivation for writing it was I wanted people to think about

him differently and think about their outrage differently because I don't think they're mad. I do think they're hurt. They're disappointed. You said nuance too. I think he's our best shot at furthering the conversation. That's what frustrates me just as a comic where I'm like, dude, you've always furthered the convo on so many things. You could do it on this thing that everyone seems to be really log jammed on, not finding any nuance in. It would be beautiful. It's just like comedy's trust. Even in the point of when someone gets on stage,

you want their first joke to be funny just so you can trust them so that you can be like, okay, I'm going to have a good time for the next 10 minutes. There's just no trust right now when he's on stage. I don't think he can do it. I actually don't agree.

I think that he does need to be funny. That's his job. He's one of the most brilliant comedic minds of this generation. So I don't think he can go up there and just break it down. Let's move on past Louis. We want to move on past Louis to Me Too

in general. So now you treat men who all of a sudden now are replaying in their minds all their sexual experiences and seeing them in a new light and replaying in their minds all their sexual experiences and seeing them in a new light and often come in feeling guilty or unsure or nervous about their past. I work with a lot of men, and lately, yeah, that's what's been coming up.

So what kind of patterns do you see? In terms of what they're feeling guilty about? You can change names to protect the innocent. Or the guilty i think that uh i i think a lot of men are are revisiting moments in their life and feeling kind of reading through what's been happening and feeling pretty uncomfortable with themselves when they didn't feel uncomfortable in the moment um and none of this is really the interesting thing to me is like it's not on the level of like a harvey weinstein matt lauer like anything super creepy it's like it's issues around

consent largely um but like the kind of subtle consent between adults where uh men i think have been and women have been taught to expect this from men, like push instead of ask. And they feel really uneasy about that, and they want to talk about it with me. Well, can you give us an example of a patient that has expressed that? Well, I wrote about one where, I'm going to keep it very, very vague, but a guy had been thinking about how he had, he'd like basically pushed for sex with a few different women. And there was just like, it was a lot of like non-verbal communication, like the women not being into it but not saying no,

and him sort of ignoring any nonverbal signals. Knowingly ignoring nonverbal signals? I think that's the part that he wanted to talk through was that kind of space between like, do I know this, but how much do I want to know this? It's an interesting question that you brought up about being vague. To what extent are you allowed to talk about, in a general way, your patients, even if you don't use their name? What are the rules, if there are rules? I can't.

So the law is HIPAA, and I can't reveal any identifying information about anyone that I work with, but I'm going to be much stricter about that because it's their lives and I want to be respectful of them. So you can't say, I had this patient and he had a show on FX. He likes to masturbate in front of chicks. That would be ethically untenable. Absolutely. Probably

they could sue me for that. Okay, so we're clear about that. So they're nervous and, well, so in that situation, do they tell you the story and then do you have to tell them whether you think, yeah, no, you're okay or you're not okay? I found that that's actually a pretty stale conversation. It's unsatisfying. It doesn't really do much for them.

I don't really think of myself as in the advice giving business. So like, what do they care what some other guy like, okay, you're fine or you're not. No, you're fine. You didn't rape her. So let's say they realize, you know what I realized now that I knew what I was doing. I knew she was saying, but I thought, you know, well, so for starters, I mean, how do they forgive themselves for that? Yeah, well, for starters, I think you can... See what a good therapist I am. So it's important. It's good. So part of it is like I really validate

that as part of... The way that I work, I mean, especially when someone is doing something hard like this, like I'm really appreciative of them because it doesn't feel... It's really hard to do this. Right. And they pay you to do it too. They pay you for the pleasure of doing something hard. Yeah. But they don't pay me to love them, you know, but, um,

so I, I really affirm that it's healthy to feel guilty. If you think you've done something wrong, you should feel guilty, right? The only people who don't feel guilty are like sociopaths. See that? Yeah. Look at you. Well on your way. So doing that, so really sitting with feeling guilty is important. And I think that's kind of, I don't know, when I watch the conversation that at least happens in public, I think men get so defensive they don't even want to feel guilty. They're just like, what the fuck are you saying to me? Like, I'm a monster? Screw you. You know, like, there's no room to be self-reflective.

And I don't see that with the people I work with. Well, but this is also a horrible time to feel guilty because there's no sense anymore of that, you know, if you should confess this. We don't have a sense of what's proportional. No, no sense of a fresh start. I mean, this is the whole... But there is no fresh start, right?

If you, like, outside of the legal system, you do something wrong, you have to live with that for the rest of your life. We all do. No, but if... Well, we have to live with it,

but used to be, like, the Christian attitude would be, you confessed it, and people would say... A bunch of Jews. Yeah, say no, say... Three Jews, one Muslim

at this time. He's Muslim? I think, I assume so. That we forgive you. Record scratch. That we forgive you, you know, and that you can move on. And that part of, that if you really show contrition, that you are given forgiveness. But now, even, actually the people who are getting it worst are the people who actually admit that they did something wrong. But you said show contrition and I think

that's a piece that I don't think we've really made sense of yet. Like what does it mean to show contrition? Like these guys were I don't even know. Well Louis said I'm sorry I realize now I hurt people. The hardest part is knowing that you've hurt the people you care about. How do you make it right with someone?

You know what I mean? How do you make it right when you've hurt someone? That's a question I bet everyone is wondering about. How do you make it right with someone? You know what I mean? How do you make it right when you've hurt someone? That's a question I bet everyone is wondering about. It depends how badly you've hurt them. Well, I mean... An apology could probably go a long way... A juice. ...for a relatively... We all know the answer.

You write a check. Well, I was going to say, legally... How do you make it right? Legally, when you settle, right? Like, look at the whole Michael Jackson thing. The answer is... 200 million. Yeah, so you write a check.

He paid out $200 million that came out in the new documentary. $200 million to victims. Oh, my God. Anyway. So you're saying since the Me Too movement exploded, you've seen in your practice more men confronting this. More men confronting it and more women unhappy with kind of realizing that they could be angrier with men in the middle. To any extent, it's because men did not thought before maybe the Me Too movement that this was an appropriate way to play the game. I do, yeah.

Women would say no and they would push a little bit. So that there are new rules in effect or the people i i kind of i i kind of get the sense that um how to say it like the rules changed but uh we like agreed consciously that the rules had changed but the behaviors didn't change and then all of a sudden people were like oh shit like i really can't this is what that means something like that yeah I don't think that was ever the case for us as women like I think the rules were always

clear that like that wasn't acceptable but like guys did it anyway but like guys just didn't want that to be the case and societally that was acceptable my friend Periel is saying something out loud, but she has said things to me privately

which would undercut what she's saying publicly. Have you not? Like what? About the fact that there's a lot of nuance to these situations and sometimes a guy will do something that you'd think would be horrible, but you kind of liked it. Yeah, but I was talking about me personally.

No, it's super complicated. What's her name? Camille Paglia said, you know, sex is a deep, dark mystery. But you can't use me as an example for all women either. And I was talking about one particular situation. Yes, that somebody did do something that maybe most people would have been horrified. But I did kind of like it. But I think that bigger picture, what I said before, is really true.

No, but the point is that this guy did something, and whatever it is, he somehow felt that you'd be okay with it. I don't think he cared whether I was going to be okay with it or not. Oh, well, that's even worse. I just happened to be okay with it. Okay, but sometimes in every man's life... Because he was a rock star. I mean, if we're going to put

all of the facts on the table, right? A rock star in America? Yes. You don't care about the hippo thing. No, I don't. I have no ethics or morals. You'll identify whoever. So sometimes you do get a feeling

in the vibe of the moment that something is okay. And you do it. And if it's received in the way you thought it would be, it's fine. But if, God forbid, you miscalculated, now there's a whole moral layer of judgment that will fall

on you when actually, morally, you're no different than the guy who when it was okay with the girl. And this where it becomes very difficult to analyze in a moral way. But I'm not sure most of the me- As opposed to somebody who intends to do something bad. But I'm not sure most of the me-too cases that we hear about are what you're describing.

Most of them are far more clearly wrong. Those are the criminal cases. Yeah, I mean, they're more clearly wrong. There's a more wider power disparity. And a pattern. So I'm talking about the day-to-day situations where, well, just like I said, where you, I mean. But I think it's interesting, like the example where it goes okay,

where it's like, well, you try something and nobody objects and it seems okay, so no problem. More no joke. It turns out she likes it. okay, so no problem. More no joke. It turns out she likes it. She reciprocates immediately. There's a lot in there about how men and women relate to each other that maybe we want to reconsider also. You know what I mean? Just because there's no problem.

Yeah, I think it is. How much of this is just in our... You know, every species has like a mating dance. Every species, right? Yeah. We have to presume that we do too. We have to presume that we pick up on things in a way that we're not even aware how we pick them up. In a biological way.

Is it really possible, and I say this as a seer question, is it really possible to rewrite the ancient codes of the mating dance between men and women? No, I don't buy it. I think people are more, I think there's just so much variety in what people are comfortable with and what they like,

because you're alluding to men should be more dominant and women will find that, right? That's kind of what you're saying? I don't know. I'm just saying that the idea that you're going to fill out a questionnaire, is it okay to do this? There is something.

First of all, I think it would be awesome for men to learn a way to be both assertive and ask at the same time. I agree with Avi Klein. In fact, I know nobody wants to hear about my sex life, but here it is anyway. I do. Here we go. I haven't perceived any problem navigating this terrain. Now, I could be wrong, and you might find. When somebody's already agreed to take a financial transaction,

you really have an open road ahead of you. Not sure I follow, but, you know, I do the old, the old, you know, you try for a kiss. If the kiss is working, you put the hand on the boob. If that's okay. No, but people have been skewered for the trying for a kiss. Famous people have gotten in trouble. I don't think trying for a kiss is... I think that's the least of it.

Didn't Tom Brokaw get in trouble for trying for a kiss? Probably. Maybe in the office, but not while you're watching porno. By the way, that happened one time. A girl, this was my first kiss ever. I was in law school. I know that's bizarre. Both that I went to law school

and then my first kiss was in law school. You didn't have a kiss until law school? You heard right. Wow. I was 24-ish. Oh my God.

And we were watching, and she suggested to watch porno and I was so inexperienced. You know what's so funny about that? Even the therapist is laughing. I was so inexperienced that I, She was probably trying to give you

like hints for months. For months she was trying stuff. No, no, it was the first night I met her. First night I met her. She was like,perienced that I... She was probably trying to give you hints for months. She was! For months she was trying stuff. No, no, it was the first night I met her. First night I met her. Let's just do porn. First night I met her. We're back in my apartment. So she sees a porn tape and she says, this is the VHS tape. You were leaving your porn tapes out. No, it was my roommate. And she said,

what's that? I said, oh, it's my roommate's porn. She said, can we watch? So I said, okay, I put it in. I mean, I put the porno in. And I thought to myself, it's my roommate's porno. She said, can we watch? So I said, okay, I put it in. I mean, I put the porno in. And I thought to myself, I don't know. Should I kiss her? This is how inexperienced I was in second year of law school. And then I kissed her with my eyes wide open because I'd never kissed a girl before. She goes, do you usually keep your eyes open when you kiss?

How did she know your eyes were open? That's an interesting question. Well, she probably used those a little gap in the show. Maybe like it was with her on the show. She must have gotten a vibe. So I said, no, no, and then I closed my eyes. But the point being is that I'm overly cautious, and I do ask. I don't necessarily ask, but I only go one step at a time. Okay?

So you go from the kiss to the breast, the breast to the butt, the butt to the vag. Really? If she's okay with the vag. You know, and that sort of thing. And I generally don't put it in without... Verbal consent. I don't know if I necessarily... I think I generally do get verbal consent, yeah.

That's good. I have verbal consent or you know, yeah, verbal consent. I don't know if I necessarily, I think I generally do get verbal consent, yeah. That's good. I have verbal consent or, you know, yeah, verbal consent. Or when she says like, okay, 200 for everything, that's verbal consent. It's also a bargain, by the way. All right, and to be clear, I want to, like, personally, I get in trouble for saying some of this stuff,

but it's not coming from trying to sanitize my own past behavior. I actually think that my, like I've always been pretty aware and not gotten myself into miscalculations. I mean, I went pretty public on this thing with Louie and nobody was calling up saying, well, he did this to me. But I'm reluctant to judge other people as bad people because I know people who have miscalculated. They've done it without bad intention.

They were not trying to, you know. And I really thought you or they got carried away. And I'm just, it's not my nature. I don't want to be arrogant and judge people. I don't make that mistake. So therefore people. I don't make that mistake. So therefore, anybody who doesn't make the mistake I make, now I can look down on their monsters. Because they're not monsters.

Harvey Weinstein is a monster. What does getting carried away mean? You're talking about the mob mentality? Yeah, just this notion today that we're all so smart and we can judge people so harshly. I do want to get to Rami's TV show, but just to let you know. He's got his own TV show on Hulu. Well, it didn't say that

in the intro. I want to read one more paragraph of The Doctors. It is Doctor, no? I'm not a doctor. He's not a doctor. Does the New York Times know that? What has lower barriers to entry, psychotherapy or comedy? So how do I address you?

Obvious, but... Okay. Shame is the emotional weapon that allows patriarchal behaviors to flourish. The fear of being emasculated leads men to rationalize awful behavior. This kind of toxic shame is in direct contradiction with the healthy shame that we all need to feel. Okay, this gets really jargon-ish to me. What are you saying?

Shame is the emotional weapon that allows the patriarchal behaviors to flourish. What do you mean by that? I mean all the phrases we like to say, like be a man, man up, right? Okay, were you raised that way? Were you raised with toxic masculinity? Talk to Matthew Broussard. I mean, if ever there's a guy? Okay, were you raised that way? Were you raised with toxic masculinity? Talk to Matthew Broussard.

I mean, if ever there's a guy that looks like he was raised that way. Were you raised with, and he's Jewish too. Were you raised with toxic, you want to sit down? Can he sit down? Yeah, yeah. I'm right about to go on. Are you about to go on? All right, cool.

Okay. Matt Broussard's a very handsome guy. Were you raised, your dad told you, don't cry, be a man, that kind of stuff? Not that much, no. I felt that, but my parents were fine with me crying. Yeah, I wasn't raised that way at all. Were you? No, no, my dad was definitely, I mean, he wouldn't say you can cry, but he was okay with it.

So this is interesting. Were you raised that way then? But can I ask you, because I don't think I was raised that way either, but I certainly felt it as I got older. Well, you know, hold that, maybe you're right. Broussard,

have you ever Me Too'd a girl? He's got to go on. No, Broussard's been assaulted. Broussard's gorgeous, by the way. I know, he's so good looking.

My point about it is that I saw that documentary about the toxic masculinity. It might have been called toxic masculinity. And people talk about this subject as if this is the way dudes are just raised. And it occurred to me that, and I started asking a lot of guys, were you raised that way? I think one guy told me, yeah, my dad kind of was like that. But overwhelmingly, people said, no, I wasn't raised that way.

And I began to think, well, is this just anecdotal? Like, okay, you're a therapist dealing with men with these problems. Like, if I ran an impotency clinic, I might think, well, all dudes have trouble getting it up. But really, it's just people that are coming to me that can't get it up. And is there – go ahead. I mean, my father didn't tell me to not cry, but my friends sure did. If I ever cried in school, people talked about it for the rest of the year. It was still a shameful thing.

And I cried a lot when I was younger, and now that I'm older, I can't, but I'm societally allowed to. When you lose those looks, you'll be crying. Why can't you cry now? I cry once a year. It takes a lot for me to cry. It might be a repression thing. It might just be a testosterone thing.

You're saying I have low T? Is that what you're saying? You cry a lot. All the time. I cannot. Since I have kids. Oh my god. I've heard that. Once you have kids, you can cry on command. No one was blubbering when

there was the bris of his last son. I won't mention the name. I don't know how, you know, privacy. You mentioned I was blubbering, but you won't mention the name of the child. No one was blubbering. You can't imagine. He was so emotional at the birth of his son. That's true, but not only that, I felt no shame about it.

But I believe that nobody was judging me. I don't believe anybody judged me for that. I mean, we see famous people on stage. They made fun of John Boehner, was it, for crying a lot? Yeah, yeah. That was how my dad cried, by the way. He had a very John Boehner cry. It was like he'd get very sentimental and choked up about something

and would cry in front of all of us. And I was always like, ugh. Well, nevertheless, they made fun of him because it was a bit much after I was always like, ugh. Well, you know, nevertheless, they made fun of him because it was a bit much after I was like crying all the time. It was theatric. But nobody,

it also matched the very unemotional politics. Right, but those right wing rednecks, they still voted for him. Nobody was, they weren't like, get this guy,

get this guy out of here. We made fun of him because we thought it was insincere. Yeah. I didn't like it. What's that? It was not insincere.

You could tell. Well, then that's great. Because he was crying overere. Yeah. I didn't like it. What's that? It was not insincere. You could tell. Well, then that's great. Because he was crying over weird things sometimes. What about Chuck Schumer crying about the Statue of Liberty? Insincere. When he was crying about how Trump had the Muslim ban and he mentioned the Statue of Liberty. I thought that was fake. Obama cried one time and I thought it was very sincere.

Yeah, after the school shooting. Yes, and do you remember the line? I remember it very well. He's talking about these kids, and they will never grow up to do this and do this, and he says, and to have kids of their own. Yeah. And when he said that, his voice broke, and you just knew that was, and again, maybe because I'm a parent, I felt that, but it was clear.

That was real. I'm going to listen to that before my next audition where I have to cry. It's really good. Do you get auditions where you have to cry? No. Sometimes. It's an evil villain cry. There was another cry that was with

George H.W. Bush at Reagan's funeral. He was talking about Ronald Reagan, and he started to say the line, he taught me more about leadership than anyone I had ever known. And he couldn't get through it. And by the way, George H.W. Bush cried a lot.

And again, nobody was shaming him. But it's also so few cries that you can name them. You're like naming the public man crying. So then what is toxic masculinity? I don't know You know what toxic masculinity is? I mean I

As opposed to non-toxic masculinity What's the difference? I don't know the difference between the two I know there is a difference between the two I identify it more as like homophobia Especially between straight guys Of like any kind of demonizing Female traits or female characteristics

Even though they might be a sign of strength. Well, it's like when your gym teacher used to say as a kid, okay, ladies, you know, when you weren't in gym, you weren't maybe making the basket or whatever, you know. I have a theory. I don't know. I have a theory that homophobia is a cause to a lot of sexual assault because men in high school get called gay.

You're a gay. You're a fag. You love men, all that stuff. And then when you get a little bit older and you grow up physically, you're like, I want to prove to the world that I'm not gay. I'm going to do it by getting too drunk

and disrespecting women's boundaries. I think that's part of it. He's a psychotherapist. I think that's an interesting idea. But I think... I don't know about toxic masculinity. That's not his specialty. Well, it's just like, people seem to be changing the definition until it's just masculinity.

That's what worries me. There is something about masculinity, though, that I think a lot of it is you have to prove it, right? You have to prove that you're a man. And I think that's what they're trying to refer to. Well, look, I mean, there is also something willfully blind. Like, what's that movie? You Want Me on That Wall. What movie is that?

Good Men. Few Good Men. It's like we do need tough dudes in this world. For sure. You know, and we need them to be. But toughness shouldn't be an exclusively masculine trait. There could be tough women. That's true.

And you shouldn't have to be tough at the expense of everything else, which I think is probably what... That's right. But we do need tough men to go into burning buildings and to fight wars and to... You know, it's like the world... I mean, are we at the point where we're saying that actually being tough or being strong or being masculine is bad?

No. I wish I were a little tougher. I do. I think life would be easier if I were a little tougher. Have another friend, Jellico. Why is toughness just identified with masculinity? Like, why can't that be a feminine trait to be tough and run into buildings? It's a different kind of toughness. It's a different kind of toughness.

It's a different kind of toughness. Can we get to... It's not a traditional feminine trait. I invited poor Rami down here, and I wanted to discuss his... Let's get to know him a little bit. You started working... This is Rami Youssef. Yes.

Not Ramzi was the terrorist? Not Ramzi, no. What did he do? Was it World Trade Center? The first one. First one, okay. Yeah. So not even a good terrorist.

Yeah. God. Oh, okay. So not even a good terrorist. God. Oh, God. Anyway, Rami Youssef has been working here not long. Not long. How long? Dude, like maybe not even two months. Yeah, I've been living in LA.

Well, congratulations. And you're of what derivation that is to say ethnicity, nationality, you know what I mean. Yeah, I'm Egyptian. So you were born in Egypt? No, no, my parents. My parents were where I was born in New York. Like the blind sheik. Huh?

Like the blind sheik. No, it was Ramsey, so go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. And you have a show on Hulu. Yeah, it's coming out in April. Okay, great.

So what's this show? Well, I was always interested in kind of making something. I felt like you always see these stories of immigrant families, first generation kids, and the attitude is kind of like, fuck you, mom and dad. I want to be my own person. I don't want to follow this culture. I don't want to follow this

faith. I kind of want to do my own thing. And so there's this tension that's like, I don't want to deal with all this old, antiquated faith and culture. I want like, I don't want to deal with all this old antiquated, uh, faith and culture. I want to be now I want to be American or whatever. I do. I come from observant Muslim home, um, Muslim home in a way that wasn't really imposed on me. And I think what it did kind of in my brain was I actually just really liked being Muslim. Um, I would pray as a kid. I still pray now. We pray five times a day.

It's something that I, like, strive to do. I would watch things where people are, like, having this, like, you know, argument with their parents, and it didn't really resonate with me. And I had never really seen something that kind of showed somebody trying to incorporate both those things. Like, what do you do when you want to go to Mecca, but you also want to go to Burning Man? Like, what does it look like if you're trying to hold on to your faith?

That's kind of what I found doing stand-up. I remember doing, I was at a comedy club, actually it was in a bar a couple of years ago in Brooklyn. This guy went up in front of me, he was telling this whole bit about getting high on acid, tying up some girl. The crowd's like cragging up. And then I went up on stage, I was fasting Ramadan, and I started talking about that. And then I said know it's not because my parents make me it's

like i believe in god like god god you know not yoga and and i remember just the crowd was silent like as if i had said i tied up a girl while i was on acid like it was like the thing that like caused this tension and i was like oh this is a conversation we're not really having like what does it look like right now where the word God just sounds ugly? It sounds like it's this thing that only perpetrates hate. But there are these beautiful traditions that have things to them that it's kind of gotten lost, of course. But what would it look like to have a family,

to have a character who's trying to reconcile both? How do you live in both spaces? And that being the tension of someone who's trying to be good. It's gotten lost, except, of course, to the millions and millions of people who go to church and synagogue and... Yes, of course. I mean, these are all conversations, but there's not really, like, a pop culture moment for that. There's no nuance.

And the same when we're talking about the Me Too stuff. You're either, like, a Christian Muslim who hates gays, or you're someone who doesn't care about that stuff and thinks God is a joke. And, like, going to church is like a comedic punchline on stage. You know, it's not, it's like, it's, it's not like a thing that, uh, can have nuance or can have like good values tied to it anymore. It's, it's kind of one or the other and it feels like an outdated thing. Where are you guys at? So, so the, the show is coming out on Hulu?

Yeah, it's coming out April 19th. And how many episodes are in the can? 10 episodes. All 10 come out April 19th. Oh, so they weren't editing right now. And anybody, any big names in the show? No, it's a new cast. But your parents are going to feature prominently.

Yeah, we have some really, I mean, awesome actors. We have a guy playing my dad is actually a big actor in Egypt. The woman who plays my mom is also internationally pretty big. But none of them are big here. It's a fresh cast. Yeah, we're really excited about it. I'm doing it with A24, the movie company, and Gerard Carmichael

is doing it with me. We're doing a show, and I'm doing a special. We're kind of releasing it all at the same time. Gerard directed Drew Michaels? Yeah, Gerard directed Drew's. It was pretty interesting and original. it was really good

it was really cool yeah Gerard has a lot of talent obviously he's awesome wait so what's it called the show's called Rami Rami

yeah that makes sense yeah yeah and then and then the special is called Feelings

and so much about it is kind of trying to get to the emotional core of these things that whatever political faith like these things that feel like they don't have feelings behind them is really finding that nuance kind of like we were talking about before. Who referred you here to the commie cellar? Moe.

Moe. Yeah, Moe Amherst. And he's a Moe. And Moe is on my show. He's a series regular on my show. So you know SD, the booker. She's Israeli. You know that, right?

So tell the truth. Yeah. So you know SD, the booker, she's Israeli. You know that, right? So tell the truth. Yeah, yeah. In the dark recesses of your mind, if you had not gotten passed, would you have said, that's probably because I'm Muslim or Egyptian. I know she's Israeli. No, I probably would have been like, I probably blew the audition. But you'd have to give it some number. You'd have to give it a 5% chance, 10% chance.

There's no way you could just think, Well, but he knows that there's many Muslim comics that work here. Yeah, I know that they're here. It doesn't matter. Let's take the comedy seller out of it. Let's just take a regular situation in which someone who is Israeli could give me something and they don't. Is that somewhere that my mind would go?

Of course it's a consideration I would have to have because that's real tension that's out there. Is it where I operate from? No, I've done stand-up in Israel. I've done stand-up in Palestine. I meet the people who do that and I feel my real tension with any of those things is the government's

not like the individuals. But I know there are individuals who carry that out. Where have you done stand-up in Israel? With Avi? Not with Avi Lieberman. No, I actually did this thing with the State Department

where we did the first like Palestinian comedy festival, but we also performed in East Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. But then also in Ramallah and Bethlehem, we went around. Mo was with me on that one, too. I actually find the opposite to be true as a half-Israeli person.

Especially in America. I mean, all my best friends are Israeli and Jewish. Yeah, I mean, when I meet somebody from the Middle East, Egypt, I mean, one of my best girlfriends is from Lebanon. I feel like there's a real connection in a way that meeting somebody from Alabama, I don't have. You're barely pro-Israel. No, but you meet those people and there is this like,

holy shit, we both didn't celebrate Christmas. It's like this love. You're on the same side. Avi, this brings up an interesting question. Do you have any Muslim clients, as you sometimes call them? I have, yeah. And do you feel that there's any tension, like when the Muslim client might say,

I don't know what your stance is on the Middle East, but a Muslim client might be ranting about the right of return. And then this fucking Israeli walked in. My thing is, I've been to therapy over the years. I prefer to go to a therapist that is... Do you see a Muslim therapist? I wouldn't see a Muslim therapist. Really? Why not? I want a therapist that can get into my head as much as possible. That is your job

after all. I don't want no queers. And I don't want... No, I'm kidding. Maybe we should revisit toxic masculinity. No, the truth is I did ask a therapist once, are you gay and are you Jewish? Very straight up.

I was asking the Jewish part just to be polite. He looked very Jewish. Jews don't like to look Jewish. What about the gay part? Why are you asking that question? You don't know why he's asking that question? Would you ask a surgeon that question? No, because he's trying to get into my head. It's a relationship.

You want to know they understand you? And I want them to understand me. And if I'm talking about women like this really gorgeous girl and I don't want to be like, well, why would you want her anyway? No, no. I'm kidding around about that. Look, I think it's valid what he's saying. A therapist's job is to

know me. You don't think a gay guy can understand? Also, I've got something else for you. Go ahead. There is a phenomenon. Avi, back me up on this. Uh-oh. Don't rope me in. There is a phenomenon where patients and therapists have emotional feelings for one another. White blushing.

Yes. All right. Blushing. And do I? I don't want any sex. I saw that in The Sopranos. I don't want sexual tension in my therapy. Oh, Dan. Oh, no. What do you do I, I don't want any sex. I saw that in The Sopranos. I don't want sexual tension in my therapy. Oh, Dan.

Oh, no. What do you mean no? I don't know about this, Dan. You're afraid the gay therapist is going to want to say no? He's seen. Or you'd like it if your woman therapist had sexual feelings for you. Well, that's getting, that's a whole other story. But, but, but, now I know on the patient side, that's a very common phenomenon.

What about on the therapist side? Do therapists fall in love with their patients? It's an intimate relationship. I can understand that. But it's something you, I mean, as a professional, you have to kind of keep track of what's going on. I'd be okay with a gay therapist. I think it's insane. Absolutely.

I've had a gay therapist. But I would want a man. Yeah? Because I would feel, I wouldn't have to have a man. As a matter of fact, but I would feel, that's what I want I wouldn't have to have a man As a matter of fact But I would I would feel That's what I want

Wait Have you ever been to therapy? You can do well With a female therapist No let me It depends It depends what it is I wanted to talk about

If I want to talk about Like just basic issues Whatever I really wouldn't care About the sex If I wanted to talk about Masculine angst I was having

The way I was feeling About being rejected by, something that I would think that a life experience could help somebody identify with me. I would want somebody who could have had that life experience. I think it's totally legitimate and I know there's a real push to try and bring

people who basically aren't like, mostly Jews, Jewish, white Jews into therapy. You know, like if you're African-American or Latino and you want someone who knows your experience, it's much, much harder to find a therapist. And interestingly, they have a lot less suicide in those populations too.

Is that true? We talk all the time about bringing more blacks into the police force or as teachers to relate to the students. And yet I comment that I want a therapist that's like me, the most intimate of all relationships, and I'm getting it from all sides. Don't you see a contradiction there? You didn't have the smoothest transition into your question.

Well, also because you were worried that your gay therapist would want to sleep with you, and of all the reasons, that's the worst one. I'm sorry, Dan. I'm just, well, you know, even my straight therapist I see looking at me sometimes, I'm wondering. Yeah, I'm sure. No, because I don't know. I just have that thought.

I have that thought. No, not that I have that certain something. Sometimes I have that thought. Can we talk? So on the issue, just going back to the issue of masculinity. So do you have children? masculinity? Do you have children? I do. Do you have children?

No. Robbie's very young. He's probably 28. I'm about to be 28. What kind of 28-year-old observant Muslim has no children? He's not that observant. You shooting blanks? I'm fucked up, bro.

He's not that observant. The parents must be horrified. He's in there. But anyway, so I have a... well, one of them is a baby, but I have a son who's five and a daughter who's seven. And it's so obvious the difference in personality between the male and the female. I've seen that, too. I mean, it's, and we raise them exactly the same.

They don't have segregated toys. You know, they have to negotiate. I don't let them watch two different TVs. They have to agree on the same movie. And they can watch exactly the same. They don't have segregated toys. They have to negotiate. I don't let them watch two different TVs. They have to agree on the same movie. And they can watch whatever they want. But it's always superhero action for my son, and it's always princesses for my daughter. And you realize that none of this,

and you have a son. I mean, none of this is any kind of training they've gotten. It even predates them being exposed to the outside world. And this is fledgling masculinity. This is what grows up to be masculine. And then we pretend that when they're grown up that this is some big defect and we could have somehow raised them differently. I think that we're going too far with this.

I think it's tricky. I think it's tricky for a couple of reasons. I mean, one, I definitely have seen, I have three girls, and one's a baby, but the other two, yeah, like, I tried so hard. I was like, you can, you know, we'll get balls, we'll get cars, like, whatever you want to play with. And they were all about princesses.

That must be really frustrating for a psychotherapist. Like, fuck. I mean, that's who you want to be. Why would that be frustrating for a psychotherapist like fuck why would that be frustrating for a psychotherapist because they are the school of thought which is least sympathetic to the nurture over nature it's an interaction between the two right it's always both

right but like a psychiatrist would be like yeah of course it's all nature it's essential to you and your ratio would be like, yeah, of course, it's all nature. It's essential to you. Yeah. And your ratio would be the most favoring nurture. You put the most faith in nurture. But then when you think about, like, how are we nurturing girls, femininities, and boys, masculinities,

and it's like, I don't know. It's not like you have a wide range of stuff to offer them. So there's one type of superhero thing to really give them, and then that's what they're left thinking about what it means to be a man. It's not a broad range of options. Yeah, I think they get a lot of information

about the world. We might not be telling them, you have to watch superheroes or you have to play with princesses. But my five-year-old says, or has said, has said that pink is a color for girls. I mean, he's certainly not learning that

for me, right? I have to disabuse him of that notion. Colors, I'm ready to say, might very likely not be nature. But it might be. In fact, no, I think the history of that is pretty recent. But behavior patterns, first of all,

in every single animal species on planet Earth, there are different behavior patterns for the male and the female. It is absurd to think that humans are different unless you just don't believe in evolution. You know what's interesting, though? I don't have a really detailed grasp of the data but they do these studies where like um very young like a boy baby and a girl baby um they're both crying and then they gauge uh people's observations what do they think is what's the baby feeling right and people were much more

likely to see the boy baby is angry and the girl baby as sad. And how you treat someone based on what you think their motivation is, that teaches them a lot about what they're going to get in the world. It's just interesting to me. That's one study. You know that more than 50% of these studies can't be replicated. For sure. It's an idea I'm intrigued by.

Because I do think men's motivations get misperceived all the time. Look, you see that movie. I want to be clear, by the way, that I don't think it's outrageous to want to keep sexual attention out of the therapist's office. Did you see that movie with three identical strangers?

I haven't seen it yet. Yeah, I saw it. So this is a movie about these three identical triplets that were separated at birth and they grow up and despite the, I don't want to give any spoilers, despite the way it ends, So this is a movie about these three identical triplets that were separated at birth, and they grow up. And despite the, I don't want to give any spoilers, despite the way it ends, it is just stunning how similar these dudes are in every single way. It's fascinating.

The conclusion the movie draws, I thought, was bullshit. It was really bad. They were, like, struggling to make a movie at the end. But it is fascinating, like, how similar they were on many levels. And they were raised in three different types of households and everything, and if you watch this and are not shaken off your moorings

in terms of dismissing the overwhelming influence of nature, I think you're being willfully blind. I mean, how else can you account for three random individuals raised in three totally separate homes being almost identical in every aspect. Their body language, their way they talk, their human interests.

I mean, it's stunning. But to me, without having seen it, I would just say, as a therapist, what I'm interested in is not only what a person is doing outwardly, but how they relate towards themselves. And I would imagine that... You're right. That was different. That was different. Can I ask you something? You're 100% right.

That's very good. And I'm sorry to belabor this point. No, no, really. That was exactly right. If you watch the documentary, that is the one part where they diverge. This is interesting to me, and it relates to my previous point about sexual...

It really is okay, yeah. Do you have any smoking hot patients? And they're talking about sex. He can't talk about it. I don't know how to get my way out of this conversation. Let me paint the picture for you. You've got a smoking hot patient. She's all of 25 years old.

Wow. And she is fine. And she's talking about, Doc, I really like to... I don't know why, I really like sucking cock lately. And you're trying to be like, interesting. And you're trying to be professional.

Is this a screenplay you're writing? It sounds like the beginning of the porn you showed after all when you were in law school. This is that porn. I would like to say that I do think that, and I have experienced in my youth, that there were men who probably I did put in a position like a certain professor when I was in college who I was attracted to

and he didn't do anything with it. Well, that's different. Professors are supposed to have sex with their students. It's an old tradition. No, but he didn't because it was totally inappropriate. I mean, my behavior was totally inappropriate. I know that probably comes shocking. inappropriate. I mean, my behavior was totally inappropriate. I know that probably comes shocking. It was so wrong, but it felt so right.

So to answer your question, I do think that you can find somebody attractive and not act on it, right? That seems like a really low bar to set. No, but my question is in the therapy environment, and my point earlier was I don't even want that to come up. And I'm not saying I'm all that. Some people find me quirkily attractive, but I don't even get that. But in any case, I don't even want the possibility that that's going to come up.

And so, therefore, I prefer a heterosexual male therapist. Okay, but Dan, this is also part of your nuttiness. You understand that? Like, it compounds itself. What if a heterosexual male just found you so attracted that he was willing... Heterosexuals, by definition,

don't do that. You're not understanding. He's bringing the full weight of his neuroticism to his choice of a therapist. I think it's... What do you think of that? Have you seen him try to order

something off a food menu? It's the same thing. It's just like... I mean, these guys, they're ganging up on me, but you understand what I'm saying. It's just like, it's paralyzed. Do you, I mean, these guys, they're ganging up on me, but you understand what I'm saying. I understand

that you understand it. I mean, I've had a gay male therapist. I had no problem with what was going on. You didn't tell your parents, did you? I did, actually.

I think I did tell my dad. My dad was just like, whoever's the best for the job is the best for the job. By the way, for the same reason a woman might feel uncomfortable with a male gynecologist.

Actually. And a lotnecologist. Actually. And a lot of women do. Or a male doctor in general. Am I right? I think that's different. Your therapist isn't sticking his fingers up your ass. He's sticking it in my consciousness. That's a good one.

So we have to wind it up. I always feel in these conversations that I, that I ended up saying something wrong. Part of my approach to this show is always to be somewhat a devil's advocate. So, like, I, I, I know where you're coming from, so I want to put the arguments to you about Louis, let's say, in, in the way that's most challenging. But, you know, I had similar thoughts to some of your thoughts at certain times. But as I thought about it more, I just began to feel like, you know what?

This is all about us making demands of this guy. And he can do what he wants. And if we don't want to go see him, we're not going to go see him, you know? Well, can I say something? Yeah. So I hadn't heard your podcast until I got invited to go on.

And so then I listened to a bunch because I wanted to know what I was getting myself into. Oh, good idea. And I have to say, I really like it. And so then I listened to a bunch because I wanted to know what I was getting myself into. Good idea. And I have to say, I really like it. And I really appreciate what you're... I listen mostly to the Me Too conversations. And I really like them.

I thought they were some of the best ones I've heard because you're really... I just think you're modeling a kind of conversation that I wish people had more often. Thank you very much. With humor. With humor. With humor. With humor, too.

And it doesn't surprise me that comedians are able to be, I mean, they're very observational, and so there's more detail in the conversations. But I just like making space for different opinions. I mean, how sad is that that that's like, feels like a fresh breath air, but it is. Well, that's the number one issue of our time, I believe, is that nobody can talk about anything anymore. And every day we do this show,

I know, I think, you know, what the fuck? I mean, you don't know this, but maybe you know this. Like, all the time now, I'm thinking, I should stop this radio show. Like, what the fuck

is to be gained by doing this stupid radio show when somebody's going to find something that I said? Do you get blowback from people? From time to time, but the Covington kids really made me think, because what

happened with those kids is that there was a story that came out, and when the story turned out not to be exactly as they first thought it was, what did they do? Then they engaged in an entire examination of everything they could find on this school, no matter what it was, in order to justify

it. So I had this fear, like, if they would take something I said out of context, and then even if I could defend and say, well, no, I was saying this and it's okay, what they would do then is not say, okay, well, you know, he's all right. They would listen to every hour of every show that we've ever done, find the time that I maybe quoted the N-word or something, you know, that someone else said, like not using it. They'd find something. And there's just no way to win.

And I weigh that on one side against the fun of doing a radio show. It's not like we make any money. It's just nothing. It's like, this is not a wise Jewish man would have more wisdom than this. I do think the show tends to skew a little too Jewish, by the way.

That's what they said about Seinfeld until it was the most famous sitcom in history. Fair enough. Or filler on the roof. This is self-hating Jew. She's self-hating in one way, and he's embarrassed. Internalized anti-Semitism.

Yes, absolutely. Well, we can discuss that in our session no I just think that our guests tend to be Jew heavy and maybe we could we could get a more variety in terms of diversity alright I'll come back anytime

I'll be here well okay what's our email just podcast at comedyseller.com. If you think we're too Jew-y, please email us. And by the way, last week- We had Iman El-Husseini. She's not Jewish. Yes, she's awesome.

But interestingly, you said, you were like, how could you say that she's mean? How could you say that? And we got so much positive email about that show last week. That's true. You need to have a little thicker skin. It's okay to, like when I told her that I was going to tell you how I felt about therapy, she goes, you can't do that. I'm like, I can do that.

That's your brand. And what I said to her, I said, you know what? I don't want to go through my life having a thousand insincere conversations. I'd rather, like if I'm going to go out and talk to people, I want to talk about what I'm actually thinking. And what did I say? I don't know what you said. I wasn't listening. I said that's fine.

But this is really what we do. And we're forcing it. Like everybody's having this diplomatic exchange. No, I think you can also have an internal monologue. Yeah, but what's the point? What's the point of that? What is the point of having a conversation if the exchange I'm having with him is actually not what I really think,

but just what I think it's okay to pretend that I think. No, you'll wind up in therapy if you do that. This sounds presumptuous. I think you're going to like my show. I'll tell you why. I think hiding that shit's the worst. I have this character that I know Arabs are going to get mad that I put on TV, but it's this guy who just hates Jews.

He's just straight up. He's in every family. He's in every family. He exists. And I was like, yeah, I want this guy to be on there. Because I think to ignore that this is part of the conversation makes the conversation seem insincere. Does he hate Jews in a fun Archie Bunker way or in a less fun, say, Arafat?

No, no, no. It's Archie Bunkery. I mean, he works at the Diamond District. Of course. Sounds like the guy who wrote him. So he's like, I'm surrounded by Jews. And then you go to where he works. And he is.

But the context of this type of character is really interesting to me. To have these conversations, I think, gives weight to the things that are true. Because we're not hiding anything. I think that's really important. And I'm happy you have, I mean,

I'm, I would support you a thousand percent for having a conversation, having a character like that. But what is unfortunate now is that if it were reversed and you, it was about a Jewish family and they had a character who hates Arabs, which they wouldn't be able to get away with that. You, you have a certain freedom being a,

I don't know, a person of color or whatever it is. Not someone, if you cannot be accused of having white privilege in this day and age, you have a tremendous amount of freedom to even tweet racial things, whatever it is. And that really, that really. I will probably be accused of being anti-Semitic though. I think it will. I will be a strong defender of yours. We'll have you back. No, I'm serious. I will go to bat for you. I will I will be a strong defender of yours. We'll have you back.

No, I'm serious. I will go to bat for you. I will absolutely go to bat for you. Well, we'll have you back on. We'll talk about it. Ratings bananas. Maybe I should watch the show first. Who's playing the anti-Semitic character?

Nick DiPaolo. And does he have to... Yeah, who's playing your anti-Semitic? This actor, his name's Laith Nakli. He's really great. He's not Arabic, though? He is. He's Arab, yeah.

And does he have to use the method and dig into his personal... I mean, in other words, how true to life is this character? No, it's not true to life, but he's a very good actor.

His name is what? Laith? Nakli. That's not an Arabic name, is it? Yes, Syrian. Oh, Syrian. Okay.

I don't think you will get accused of that, but if you do, I absolutely will do everything I can to help. Because I hate that. I just hate what's going on now. All right. That was a good show, I thought, right?

You rated it from 1 to 10, Perrielle? I have to listen to it. I'll get back to you. I thought it was quite good. Avi, Ramsey, Perrielle, Dan, thank you very much. Good night. Thank you, Ramsey. Oh, Rami.