The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Baratunde Thurston

Episode Date: August 18, 2016

Baratunde Thurston

You're listening to The Comedy Cellar, live from the table, on the Riotcast Network, riotcast.com. Good evening, everybody. Welcome to The Comedy Cellar show, Sirius XM Channel 99, The Comedy Channel. We're here at the table with Dan Natterman, Krista Montella, Greg Rogel just sat down. We have a special guest we're going to introduce. Dan is in the process of telling us why it is that Leonard Utates is having success because of his name. Go ahead. No, I don't believe I said that. What I said is it's one ingredient among numerous ingredients.

But an important one. I'm not even sure it's the most important, but I brought it up because I think even something as insignificant as a name counts. Leonard Oates is an adorable name, and I made the point that if his name was Mustafa Jamal that he might that might slightly decrease his lovability

among white folk. Well, we didn't introduce you, but go ahead. It also could have made him a president in the United States. Fair enough. Boom is right. But Obama became president of a president in the United States. Fair enough. It could go both ways. Yes, indeed. Boom. Boom is right. But Obama became president not because of,

but despite his name. We will agree to disagree on that one. But Dan is really saying, you know what he's really saying? What is he really saying? He's really saying that if he didn't have

the Jewish name Natterman, he'd be a lot further in his career. That's really what he's saying. That's what Jeff Ross did. He went from Jeff Lipschultz to Jeff Ross. That's not what I'm...

And Jon Stewart too. And Woody Allen. That's not what I's saying. That's what Jeff Ross said. He went from Jeff Lipschultz to Jeff Ross. That's not what I'm saying. And Jon Stewart, too. And Woody Allen. That's not what I'm saying, because Natterman is not that crazy, insane, unethnic name. It's pretty ethnic. But if Jon Stewart Leibowitz had kept Leibowitz, I wonder whether that would have affected his career.

Yes, I do. Yes, I do. All right. Seinfeld is worse than Leibovitz. Not as bad as Leibovitz? Not as bad as Leibovitz, no. On that scale. He's obsessed with his stuff.

I'm not saying that he couldn't have made it with the name John Leibovitz. I'm saying I think Stewart was a good move, and I think it helped to whatever degree it helped. I think him being really talented helped a lot more. Don't piss Dan off. He doesn't like to hear that John Stewart being really talented helped a lot more. Don't piss Dan off. He doesn't like to hear that Jon Stewart's super talented. He's talented.

But he was not. We were discussing last week whether his talent made his success inevitable, and I don't believe that it did. I don't believe in... I believe that almost all success has a nice dose of luck involved, with few exceptions. I have unconfirmed reports, by the way.

So a rose by any other name would smell as sweet, but might not be enjoyed in the same way. A roseberg would have been a rose. It might not. A Rosenfeld. It would be enjoyed. A Rosenfeld by any other name.

It would be enjoyed, but in order for anything to be enjoyed, you have to get out in front of the camera, and you have to get the opportunity. Can we talk about the rape? Well, can we talk also about just a brief word about a man that we refer to as Crazy Mike? Yes. And I've heard... Do we know

that he died? No, we don't know confirmation. Unconfirmed reports. We're allowed to say that these are unconfirmed reports. Yeah, we can say it. That Crazy Mike has died. McDougal Mike. Oh, we can say it. That crazy Mike has died. McDougal Mike. Oh, no, really? McDougal Mike, yeah.

And this was a man who was, I guess, suffering from schizophrenia. But a staple at the comedy center. But he used to come here. And, you know, I'm not convinced that it's not us that are crazy, and he was the only sane one. He would come in here and he would talk completely incoherently, rearrange the silverware, and called everybody by a different name than their real name.

He called me Gnome. He called me your name all the time. He used to call me. But he remembered the fake name. He would have a fake name for everybody and he'd remember them forever. And the fake name would be consistent for decades. He called me Ephraim. I've always been Ephraim. How do you know that wasn't your real name?

Oh, very good. Yeah, I was Daniela. Well, I don't know. But he called me Jehovah. Maybe that's who you were meant to be. He called Steve, outside Steve, he called him son of Jarell. Oh, that's right. But you can see where that comes from.

I know, but it was kind of brilliant. And my favorite one, Sherrod Small, was Coleman. Coleman. And if he didn't see you for five years, he'd come back and say, hey, Coleman. Yeah, it's true. For those reasons.

So I knew Mike ever since I was a little boy. When he was sane. He wasn't sane, no. Since like five or six years old. And he wasn't sane, but he went through various stages of of craziness and for a while he was semi-same but he was like selling books on the um on the street like one of these used books and then one day i remember it i was around seven years old and mike was hanging out

in front of the olive tree and he was you know just bothering everybody and i was waiting in the car with my mother, and my father was walking in for a second, he was coming back, and my father comes out, and he starts, Mike, you gotta get out of here, and they started to get into a fight,

an argument, and my father had a bad temper, and Mike really was saying, all of a sudden, he's screaming at Mike, he's screaming, and Mike unzips his fly, and takes out his ample-sized sized penis and just lets it hang there

while my father's yelling at him. And my father has no idea. My mother's so caught up in his anger. That's called a moment of clarity. He has no idea that Mike's got his dick out. And I'm seven years old in the car going, daddy, daddy. It's the funniest thing I've ever seen in my life, you know? And when my father finally comes back in the car, I'm like, Daddy! Daddy! He had his pee-pee out! My father's like, what? And I remember it the rest of my life.

Oh, God. It was really a funny story. I remember when your father gave him a bunch of suits. And he laid them all out and he went, no, no, no. Yeah, he picked through expensive suits. My father had all these, all the clothes from Barney's,

all expensive stuff and he brought all, no, my father used to say that he and Crazy Mike, the only people who still wore sports jackets to work

and my father brought them like 40, my father gained weight and he brought them like 40 jackets and he brought them all, he schlepped them all the way in from Mike

and Mike went, nope, nope, nope, nope. He didn't want any of them. But he was a beloved fixture down here. If he's dead, he had to be close to 80 years old. Do you think? No, I think he was more close to 70. No, no, no.

I think he was in his 80s, yeah. If he was not 80, he was very close to 80. Yeah. We don't know how he lived, but he seemed okay, you know? But people would find, people would run into him in Florida, they'd run into him uptown. People would have all these stories

about how they'd always run into Mike somewhere. Yeah, like, how did he get there? Really, Florida? Yeah. And actually, I just remember, he owes me money. Oh, wow.

No, I'm serious. No, you can't knock that. I think I lent him, like, $300, like, a couple weeks ago. He died on purpose. $300? Yeah. I lent him like $300 like a couple weeks ago. He died on purpose. $300? I lent him $20 and he would say like, give him a $20. He goes, no, I don't want that one.

I want that one. Like another $20 bill. But he always paid his money back. No, he didn't pay me. Years ago, in his defense, he's dead. Yeah, no. Whatever. I'm going to have to eat that dead.

It's true that from time to time you give him like five bucks and he would give it back to you but giving it back to you was kind of crazy too but when I lent him a few hundred dollars from here and there when he needed money or something he never paid it back but I never expected to get it back anyway but I did deduct it from my taxes it is a charitable contribution

alright so now can we talk about the race? Anyway. Yes, if you want to get to that now. In all seriousness, if Mike has died, it's very sad.

It's the end of an era. It'll be messed, yeah. All the most famous people in comedy know exactly who he is and will probably be saddened by his death. Okay, go ahead.

I'm not going to mention any names because, you know, none of this has been proven, but apparently these two women at the UCB complained to the UCB, the Upright Citizens Brigade, the improv group or whatever there at school, that somebody had raped them, the same person these women were claimed to have been raped by. So the UCB banned this person from performing there.

And the name of the person has been revealed on social media. Well, he revealed it himself. He wrote a whole, I think you can say the name because he wrote a whole Facebook thing about it defending himself. Okay, but I think it was deleted.

But in any way, I'll leave it to you to say the name or not to say the name. I don't know the name. I don't know the name either. It was Jewish, I think. That it was. Just to be on the safe side, we'll call him Crazy

Mike. I'm not anxious to announce anybody's name, but I don't want to be ridiculously cautious when he's come out publicly himself. But it's not all that relevant to the discussion anyway. Okay. So, you know, as this has happened before

with these types of accusations, you know, the question is, is social media, is it appropriate to put this guy's name out on social media? And a lot of people are condemning him and calling him a rapist. And, of course, it hasn't been proven in a court of law. And then another point that's been made, mostly by Kurt Metzger, who is on an absolute warpath about this, is that the UCB should not have banned him

based on whatever internal investigation and allegations they conducted, we don't know about, and that these women should have gone to the police, which I don't know that we know that they didn't. I'm not sure that we know that they did or they didn't. But he was in the performing with these women? Yeah, they were at UCB together. Now, they came together

or? I don't know. I don't know if they came together, which is an odd choice of words. And so we don't know. Well well I had to because it was out there there are some things you can just leave out there Dan you don't have to well I had a question for you because I think this is very interesting

you as a club owner some waitress for example comes to you and says that such and such a comic raped them or was sexually inappropriate with them. Inappropriate or raped? Let's say raped. And you, knowing this comedian, your spider sense

tells you, without knowing anything for sure, that this is valid, that this is credible. Of course, you don't know for sure and there's no trial and they may or may not have gone to the police. I need more facts in this hypothetical. Are they really funny? Say it to comedians.

Are they killing? Well, you know, you say boo, but let me tell you something. If this guy was destroying and filling the seats, let me see if UCB was so eager to ban him. Well, that's now rewind to Bill Cosby. I'd put him on. That was exactly Bill Cosby's situation, right? He was like super successful, making a ton

of people a lot of money, and people knew that he was doing horrible, illegal crimes for decades, and they kept signing for TV shows and honoring him with special degrees and defending him as a bodyguard, as a manager, as a booker, as an agent, and people knew. So you agree with me?

Well, he agrees that people do it. I don't think it's a good thing to do, but I think there's a precedent for that. I was on a plane. I suppress this, okay? This memory. I suppress this of my flight to Portland. But this is why I believe a lot of those Cosby accusers, okay? This is what happened to me on a plane.

I'm sitting in economy, economy extra space. It's like $9 on Delta to get this much more. Because I'm a Frankenenstein so i need the this much leg room you know so i'm oh i'll pay nine dollars and then what happens is i show up and there's two other giant mooks that had the same idea that are in my row so we just sit there like monsters you know just crammed in it didn't do anything so So this guy who had the window seat, he was an older guy with a cane, a very nice, he was white,

but he was a very Dr. Huxtable-esque, kindly man, okay? He's like, hey, buddy, why don't you take the window seat? I'm like, oh, thanks. So I take the window seat, and I fall asleep. And by the way, I sleep like an asshole on a plane. I put the tray down, and I do like it's my desk in school. And just like fucking sleep like that.

Okay, so I'm sleeping like that. And I woke up because that nice man, I guess he wanted to take pictures out of the window. Okay? So he fucking just like nestled his elbows into my back. He was trying to get to the window.

So he just fucking just leaned over into my back. That's how I woke up. Was this guy's arms? There's nothing to take a picture of out the window, by the way. There's just a wing of a plane. There was nothing. And like, and like not massaging enough that I could call him on, but like a little, a little of this.

Yeah, I just woke up to that. Okay? And yeah, do you know how I handled it? And I swear to God, there's the truth. I just froze up and pretended to be asleep until he finished. Because I didn't know what to do. Yeah. I just let him finish on my back because I was scared.

Yeah, because I didn't expect it and he seemed nice. That's right. Yeah. So if I had that much trouble with a Sky Cosby, imagine a Land Cosby coming at you. I just froze up like an aspiring actress, sir. Land Cosby, yeah. So obviously if it was Aziz Ansari,

he gets a couple couple free rapes in I'm just saying if it was Aziz you would be like well we really don't know Can I just introduce Baratunde Oh please bring me up

right in the middle of the rape conversation I'm going to read it from your Wikipedia Baratunde Rafik Thurston. Why are you reading from the Wikipedia? Is an American writer, comedian, and commentator. Co-founded the black political blog, Jack and Jill Politics,

whose coverage of 2008 Democratic National Convention was archived in the Library of Congress. Was director of Digital for the Onion. And his 2012 book, in 2012, his book, How How to Be Black became a New York Times bestseller. And you were something with The Daily Show too, right? I was a supervising producer. Supervising producer of The Daily Show, which it's weird that that's not on there. Wikipedia is so out of date for me.

I'm not famous enough to have obsessive fans fighting over my Wikipedia page. Baratunde.com, if I was listening, is the best place to get updated information about me. When somebody's really famous, the Wikipedia page is right up to date. When I die, 50 years later, we'll still say

that I'm alive. If I were truly famous, they would be like, he is currently recording a podcast at the Comedy Cellar in New York City. And you would have it in several languages. Yeah, oh, absolutely. They would be fighting about it on the talk page. You would have it in Serbo-Croatian.

You would have a Wikipedia page. But none of that's false. It's just a little old. So the question is, what do you as a club owner do? What do you see as your duty as a club owner, if any, toward the people that work here? Let me toss it to the table. Baratunde, what do you think a club owner do? What do you see as your duty as a club owner, if any, toward the people that work here? Let me toss it to the table.

Baratunde, what do you think would be the right thing for me to do if two waitresses, if two people said that somebody had raped them? So I think your starting point of wanting more facts was a good start. I think you've got to be supportive and encouraging. I think most of the society tells women to not ever say anything to anybody so you kind of recognize that it's not easy to come forward to an authority

figure, whether they're law enforcement or your boss, and accuse someone else in that community of such a heinous act. I don't think most people do that lightly or make it up when they say it. It usually blows back and people don't believe you and they say, what were you wearing and why are you so slutty? All these pretty irrelevant questions.

I would seek to be compassionate and kind of supportive of them coming forward to begin with and ask about what the appropriate way to support them is. I can't jump straight to I would instantly ban this comic because this is a super hypothetical and I can't jump straight to like, oh, I would instantly ban this comic because I don't, this is a super hypothetical and I don't even know the situation that we're

talking about right now. I'm kind of walking into this on this mic, but having known women in my life who have been assaulted or raped and not believed, or it's been repeated, whether they're friends or family or just, or colleagues. Um, I think the most important step I would take as the business owner is to show compassion and some form of leadership and listening and not to dismiss it out of hand or basically put their needs above, like, how's tonight's show going to run? If I can try to communicate that, then hopefully that leads to a solid outcome and something closer to justice than what they feel like they've gotten if they're coming to me and not law enforcement. But is there in your estimation, say you were 70% convinced, you analyzed whatever evidence there was that was at your disposal.

And you, in your mind, well, you're pretty sure that this has really happened. Of course, you can't be 100% sure. And you're not, you know, but this is your business and you're entitled to do what you want. I don't think you need to adhere to the Beyond a reasonable doubt standard that we expect In a court of law This is your court and you can do what you want So is there a point at which you would

Ban this comedian that did that I'm sure there is a point I mean certainly if the comedian acknowledged it Well okay But barring that I want the information. I mean, I don't want to pretend that I'm Lady Justice and that I just have access to universal truths and can instantly judge people. At the same time, and I'm just describing how not obvious this is, you know, for me as this hypothetical business owner where I own a comedy club, which is also a pretty dope future.

So thank you for this hypothetical. And my first act as an owner is to field an accusation of rape, so that's not a good day for my first day. Well, I didn't say what your first day is. In my head, it's my first day I own a comedy club, and the first thing that happens is two employees say that

someone else in the community has raped them. So there is a point, I'm sure. I would want to get facts, as has already been said. I would want to show support kind of rhetorically, emotionally, which I think doesn't often happen. And the way the justice system works and doesn't work, it leads me to not always have confidence in it in terms of how that process works for victims, in terms of how that process works for the accused. It cuts both ways. There are people who are locked up for

not the things that they did or over-prosecuted. There are people who don't get the justice they deserve because they're politically connected or they look a certain way. So for me to act as my own Justice Department is terrifying and I'm not going to pretend right now that this is an easy, like, oh yeah,

if those two said it and I feel it in my spidey sense, then that comic's just instantly is instantly out i think there is a way to like try to bring in other folks and judge that whatever the courts may eventually decide whoever the cops eventually turn up there is probably a line before that determination can i ask you a question this is our family we don't just like that vibe are you are you hesitant because in the back of your mind you're aware of famous cases where black kids were accused of rape and it turned out they were innocent and you're

worried about making that same mistake as the club owner? Is that what's informing your opinion? It's a little broader than specifically black kids accused of rape. But it's criminal justice isn't that clearly over-polices and over-prosec system that clearly over polices and over prosecutes and over sentences and over re-convicts black people over others in the society um so i'm

what i'm trying to be sensitive to is like i'm pretty sure that in most accusations of rape that's not the case like i think where the criminal justice system truly fails isn't around rape prosecutions. It's around, like, drug crimes. It's about taillights being busted. It's about not paying your court fines. Well, in the Central Park, the famous Central Park case, the only difference was that they got the wrong guys, which doesn't seem to be a possibility here. Right. So she, and quite often, I mean, you know better than I do, but I'd say probably an overwhelming majority when black guys or anybody are convicted wrongly, it's not that the crime wasn't committed.

It's that they get the wrong criminal. Yeah. Which doesn't really seem to be a possibility here. No, that's a good point. And I think, you know, let me think about this from another way.

Like, what's the environment that I want my comedy club to represent? Like, what do I want the people who show up here to perform, to get paychecks, to laugh?

How do I want them to feel about like, oh, this is Baratunde's comedy cellar. That name will never work. Cellatunde. This is Baratunde's comedy cellar. That name will never work. Cellatunde. This is Cellatunde. And is this a place where two female employees

tell the boss that they've been raped by someone in the community and nothing happens? That doesn't sit well, right? So I don't think that's why the letting it go and just hoping it disappears doesn't feel, that's not an acceptable decision for me as a business owner. There's got to be some step toward clarity, resolution, and some kind of distancing or punishments or sanction. Let's ask a woman. Kristen.

By the way. I thought you were going to defer. What would you do as a woman? Would you show a special sensitivity to this being a woman? No, I think you have to take the case for what it is. You can't inject any personal biases. She said inject. Go ahead.

I didn't pick up on that. But I think also a lot of what we talk about during this show is the special situation that is the comedy world. So if you have somebody like Kurt Metzger going off on Facebook about this, I mean... Which side is Kurt on? He's for the fact... Kurt thinks that these women should have gone to the police, which they might have, and we don't...

I don't think we even know that. And that UCB had no right to ban this person because UCB is not a court of law. I think you're in a unique position as a club owner because you have to prepare for fallout beyond the immediate situation of these two waitresses and this comedian.

And, you know, people, you know, comedians do band together for better or worse, and this could really lead to something. So I think there is something to be said for the, you know, being compassionate, of course, and understanding, but still being limited in your ability to act. I mean, and I don't think that that's... What if you let them continue to

work there and then all of a sudden somebody else gets raped? Doesn't that kind of open you up as a club owner for liability in any way? I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I think that's a... Possible. Gloria Allred could make that case. Yeah. If there's a...

So in one case that I'm actually aware of, this has nothing to do with comedy, but it does have to do with a community. This is a university community. And you could read these headlines all over the nation. For the waitresses, do they have to come up to work every day and see their rapist getting laughs on stage?

Like how... And you as the owner, like you have enabled that environment. Once you know, once you've been told that this happens, you continue to let this person. Yeah, you don't know for sure. Yeah, but. But you, but the thing is.

But I'm saying like if this, you know, in the case that this happened and this is true, like you're torturing your employees. In other words, you have to punish, somebody has to get punished. Either the comedian has to get banned, or the waitresses have to see their oppressor. Put on hiatus until it's resolved. And so you have to punish. Somebody has to get punished. Either the comedian has to get banned or the waitresses have to see their oppressor. Put on hiatus until it's resolved.

Getting rewarded. You have to make a decision about who's going to suffer. I mean, it's also, you know, you can bring up Penn State and Jerry Sandusky. I mean, you know, apparently they were all aware of what was going on for a long time and he continued to work there. Certainly reflect poorly on the school. And, you know, it's a difficult situation,

but I don't know how you could possibly, if two women accuse the guy of raping them, how you could have him continue to be in that environment until it's resolved. It just seems like a reckless thing. For now, one could say, for now, you can't work here. If in the future this turns out to be, accusations are false, of course, you come back.

It'll never be proven they were false. They're not going to say we lied. I suppose not. But so anyway, so now that we've all discussed it, now, of course, we come back to know him, who is a club owner, and hopefully will never be in this position. Well, I have been in that position. So what happened? What can you share? What did you do?

These are the thoughts. I don't know the answer. The thoughts I have are that if two people say it, it's much more credible than one person saying it. You know, one person can be just a whatever. It can be an angry woman or whatever it is. Two people saying it, it becomes difficult to understand. Although I would want to know exactly the circumstances of the two people. Were they best friends?

Is it possible that one was trying to help the other? But, you know, presuming that it's really two separate incidents and they're both of equal credibility, the odds. The second thing comes up, I say, what if I own an accounting firm? And somebody comes in and says, this guy raped me. Am I going to fire someone who works in my accounting firm? You can't have people just say that if you go to somebody's boss and say that they raped you, they have to fire him. That can't be either.

But on the other hand, comedians aren't really employees here. And I have more latitude as a club owner, but I don't know if that changes the moral decision because as much as comedians are not my employees here, they really, really depend on their work here. Even if it's not for money reasons, for whatever reason, it's very, very important to them to work here. And it would be humiliating to them to be publicly taken off the roster because we decide they're a rapist.

So, you know, it's quite serious. And there are so many crimes. I mean, what if one of your comedians was accused of child abuse? That's the next thing I wanted to say. You know what I mean? It's just like at what point do you... Someone's always going to be... Well, it's different, though, because the accusers work here also.

So, you know, you can't have them all. It's like a crime against the community. It's an extra twist. Oh, I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying. But did the people at UCB who accused him of rape work at UCB? Yeah, they were all...

Well, they were in the same work. But they're in the workshop together. Whatever goes on at UCB, I don't really know that. Another thought I had... You said it like it's nefarious. Like, whatever goes on at UCB, I'm pretty sure know that. Another thought I had, and I... You said it like it's nefarious, like whatever goes on at UCB. I'm pretty sure it's improv comedy.

Well, improv and whatever else. Stand up and sketch. You know, there's certain offenses like rape and like child molestation and like using the N-word, which are treated, for whatever reason,

as much more serious than attempted murder, you know, whatever it is that Bernie made off. You know, there are many, many ways to do something absolutely horrible to people. And as much as I, for instance, saying, if you say the N-word in a certain kind, that will end your career. And, of course, using the N-word is horrible, but so is being terribly cruel to your children. But being terribly cruel to your children will not end your career. People might say, hey, we're terrible children,

but they'll move past it, and I don't think that's really defensible. As a matter of fact, I would say being terribly cruel to your children is worse than using the N-word, depending on what context you use the N-word. So it's difficult to separate the emotion of the accusation of rape. What if they said he tried to shoot me? Would I stop booking them then? Right. It beat me up.

How about it beat me up? So I don't know, but I guess what it comes down to, if I personally believed it were true, um, I guess I would have to stop booking them. Yeah. But, um, the one time I was in that situation, uh, the fact pattern was not cut and dry and I don't want to go into it, but I didn't take any action. And I think I made the right decision and it don't want to go into it, but I didn't take any action and I think I made the right decision and it wasn't because I was soft on rape. It was just, I can tell you guys off the thing,

I didn't think it was, I would have been right to take action. Well, this girl, I think I know what you're talking about. She didn't say she was raped. Yes, she did. But I don't know the fact pattern. That's,

whatever, I can't say. But I don't know. These are very, very, there's no right answer. These are very, very, very tough questions. And people are making these decisions every day. Yeah, not funny at all. It's a good way to start, though.

Not funny. We can get this done. Not at all what people are tuning into this show to hear. Well, we often get into topics that are serious, but this one at least has the merit of being

exceedingly relevant to the comedy seller and the comedy world. And I think it was actually quite interesting discussion. We should have had some of Kurt's rants because I'm sure they were pretty funny. I've had two was actually quite an interesting discussion. We should have had some of Kurt's rants, because I'm sure they were pretty funny. I've had two incidents, actually,

of this. I've never had an incident where two women complained about the same guy, but I had two incidents, and the truth is, one time was a close friend of mine, and she claimed that this comedian, she felt that she used the rape word.

Now, you know, remember Whoopi Goldberg got in trouble for saying rape rape rape is a word which is not exact and there is the rape of an innocent of a stranger in a parking lot

and then there's a rape of a woman who has gotten into bed, taken off all her clothes. Like the Mike Tyson example where, by all accounts, she took off her own panties, all that stuff, and then she claimed she was raped.

I'm not defending either one, but they're not the same. I wouldn't give one the same sentence as the other. Maybe they should both go to jail. But the situation that I had was a girl who was engaged in a

sexual type of thing with the guy, but then the last step, apparently she had tried to resist and she felt that he powered her and she was really pissed about it. She wasn't pissed. She didn't react the way she would have reacted, I think, if she'd been raped in the parking lot of Shea Stadium by a stranger. But she was upset about it, and I didn't do anything about it.

And she didn't... Because she didn't feel like she gave consent for that. She didn't feel like she gave consent. In other words, they had already gone halfway there. They were making out. Who knows how far they had gone, you know? But in the end, she didn't want to go all the way, and he, in some way, pressured her.

And I believed her. And she was a good friend of mine, and I was really, really upset about it. But I don't know. I didn't stop using the guy, and he wasn't even particularly that funny. I just didn't want to open up that can of worms. She wasn't angry with me about it. I don't know. It's very, very tough.

Very, very tough. Anyway, anything else on that one, Dan? No, I think we had a pretty good discussion with regard to... Stay tuned on Facebook for more of Kurt Metzger's insane rant. And if you don't have consent, don't have sex. That's just a good rule. If you don't have consent, don't have sex. Yes, that's a good rule.

That's like if you do something other than that, that's technically rape. Kristen, have you ever said no and then found yourself consenting after some prodding? Some drinks, probably. Of course. But there was a consent ultimately. I never felt, right. I never felt, I probably regretted going along, but I never felt like I intently tried to not. The difference between prodded and being physically restrained.

Right. Well, she didn't claim, that's the thing. try to not. The difference between prodded and being physically restrained. Right. That's the thing. She didn't claim it wasn't the case where she was like, no, no, screaming. That's right. There's so many. You'd have to see the video. The shades of gray. It's a tough thing to judge. But the fact is she was a good friend

of mine. She did use the R word. She was upset about it. She wasn't hysterical about it. And that informed my decision in some way. I feel like if she had been really, really traumatized, I would have reacted to it differently. Did she go to the police? She was more angry than she felt that she was traumatized.

No, she didn't go to the police. I can't prove it. And from cases that I'm familiar with, she was probably in part angry with herself, too. Maybe. You know, for even getting to that line, for example. I mean, the case that,

one case I have in mind is it's a college situation and it was, it's an encounter that began consensually but it was not a sexual encounter that was consensual.

And there was a lot of pressure and there was a pretty clear declaration of like, I do not intend to go any further and the guy

did not listen to that. But he felt like, we've had drinks and i paid for these things and we're in your dorm room and it's disgusting you know there's a people get to us like you're right you're very right i think people don't talk about this enough that there are these shades in sexual encounters like it's rarely a binary switch like everybody get out your paperwork and your contracts and we're sober we're gonna agree yeah like We make sexual decisions from a point of inebriation a lot. That's what our whole society trains us to.

Most of us aren't even in our right mind. If we're trying to be real about it, we make terrible decisions around sex and that's what our whole culture and commerce tells us to do with it. But when you have declared I don't want to do this and someone violates you, they've still crossed the line.

Absolutely. I hope nobody thought I'm. No, no. And just to back you up a little bit more on, like, the specifics of punishment and, like, how that varies. In this case, the woman, she didn't want this guy to go to prison for, like, years and years and years. She just didn't want to have to go to class with him. Right. Right.

Like, she didn't want to have to see him every day being rewarded for violating her body and her will. And that's very different from wanting to throw somebody in the criminal justice system for, like, a decade to be brutalized himself, possibly. She didn't see that as justice. Kristen is leaving. Are you offended?

No, I'm not offended. She told us before. I told you I had to leave early today. Why do you have to leave early? Because it's my sister's birthday. It's Karen, the one you thought had an eye for you. Well, I believe she did. I told you I had to leave early today. Why do you have to leave early? Because it's my sister's birthday. It's Karen, the one you thought had an eye for you. Oh, can we talk about that? She's getting married?

Yeah, she's getting married. We're not allowed to talk about that, are we? What? About her getting married? That she was with a girl for a little while? Yeah. So what? I don't know.

I don't know what your parents know or what her friends know or what his parents know. Well, they know now. Maybe we should discuss that. Wow, Kristen, you really... Well... Anyway, Kristen's lesbian sister is getting married, so... To a man.

To a man. All right, so... I think we call that bisexuality now. So, Baratunde, you worked at The Onion. I did. Which is one of the most remarkable outfits there is. I agree. I cannot believe how funny they are.

What's it like to work at The Onion? What did you do there? I joined as... I applied for the position of politics editor. This was back in November 2007. Was it... It was in New York. But at that time, was their main presence online or was it the printed one?

It was both. They used to update the website content once a week and then had shifted that to every day at midnight when I joined. But there were distribution boxes all over. Do they still print? I haven't seen one. I stopped printing a few years ago.

But they were in Austin, San Francisco, all the hot blue cities and red states boxes all over do they still I haven't seen one I stopped printing a few years ago okay but they were in like Austin San Francisco all the hot blue cities and red states and super blue cities and blue states right and especially Madison where it was founded and all over New York so I joined to help run election coverage for the Obama McCain campaign and then also to run all their internet like web presence how do we do humor online differently, social media. So I became the director of digital was my title. And I was there for about five years. And did you write content and stuff? I wrote some content. I basically got to interact with everybody. I wrote a lot of content for the internet. A few headlines got into the paper.

I wrote a few short pieces. One really disgusting one about McCain's health and what was found inside of his body when his doctors did it. I actually talked to a doctor friend of mine, like, what's the most disgusting thing you would find in an old body?

It was like an impacted rectum or something with just stool. It's disgusting. So that was hilarious to be able to use real medical science to make a disgusting

dumb point about John McCain. One of the things I admire about The Onion is that as opposed to most humor outfits, it's not readily apparent to me what their politics is. Is that a conscious decision they make? I think the politics are pretty, it is a left-leaning organization pretty clearly, but they're critical of so much.

And I think what helps with The Onion's voice is that it tries to be legitimately journalistic. And so they are poking at the subject of the story as much as they're poking at the media that makes it. And so the form of the Onion is just so strong and they adhere to AP style and the way the bylines are written, it all sounds so very official. And that's part of why it is so strong.

It's the driest, straightest, yet most absurd and hilarious, and increasingly hard to be absurd because the real world is kind of crazy. But I think part of the magic of that onion is that it had such a clear journalistic anchor, and that voice made it, you know, it was less about the left-right of it than the right-wrong of it, the absurdity of it. Are you working the Daily Show now? No, I left The Daily Show in May.

I joined last summer when Trevor started up, and I was brought in to kind of relaunch or launch in some ways all the internet stuff. Kind of what I did for The Daily Show, like do something like that. What I did for The Onion, do something like that for The Daily Show. So I led a department that was new, inherited some people, brought on some other people, and

put out a whole bunch more stuff online and figure out how to do things differently internally. I left middle of May of this year. You do it for me because I got no presents at all. I've been really conflicted. I've been getting these seductive text messages from this girl, but they're just riddled with misspellings and grammatical errors.

And I just feel like I'm being seduced by Lenny from Of Mice and Men. She put a comma in Come On My Tits. There's no comma. I mean, I'm sorry, I can't just jerk off the gibberish. Some people have some weird fetishes. Like I can't see the enjoyment in urinating on somebody. I mean, I see the convenience, you know, I just don't see the enjoyment in urinating on somebody I mean I see the convenience You know I just don't see it You ever fart during sex And you're so embarrassed you strangle the prostitute

I gotta go home and clean my apartment I saw a dead roach on the kitchen floor today. I'm concerned. Something's killing the roaches. I bought a box of rat poison. You know rat poison has an expiration date on it? It's already rat poison. How bad could it possibly get?

Does it become delicious? I mean, what the fuck happens to rat poison? How come it's always ugly animals that break into your apartment? Rats, roaches, mice. Wouldn't it be nice if leaving out dirty dishes attracted baby ducks? You know you walk into the apartment,

who left the fucking dishes on the... Have a great night everybody thank you very much the Wilmore show just got cancelled yesterday so a few days ago I would have said these shows seem to be having trouble getting

their foothold I don't really watch them that often, and Trevor is a friend of the club and a friend of mine. But just from what I read, the shows are still kind of finding their way. And I notice I don't see either of the shows going viral on Facebook, like I see Jon Stewart's rants and stuff often going viral on Facebook, like I used to see Jon Stewart's rants and stuff, you know, often going viral on Facebook. And I'm wondering,

well, now with Wilmore's show getting canceled, do you worry that people are going to say, well, you know, we gave a black voice a chance and America wasn't interested and it'll be a long time before we take that chance again. Are they going to attribute it to the fact? I hope not. I think hilariously, like, that would be sad and ironic and a little twistedly funny.

But I don't think that people are going to draw that conclusion right off the bat. And I think the Nightly Show tried a whole bunch of new stuff. They tried the panel format. Like, they had to fill in. You know, both of these shows didn't exist two years ago. You had Stewart leading into Colbert, leading into South Park. That was a 90-minute juggernaut on Comedy Central for a long time

that was just murdering it. And this is before everybody had a Vine account and a Snapchat account cranking out their own funny stuff 24-7. It was before you had a presidential candidate who could be like a vaudevillian roaster himself. He doesn't need a lot of comedy around him. He provides a high level of entertainment

as Donald Trump. And Stewart and Colbert also had the benefit of being able to fully flesh out their thing kind of under the radar. They didn't come in with all eyes on them. No, they came in pretty unknown. Colbert was a natural spinoff of an already loved daily show. Stewart was there for like

16, 17 years. And so in his first three years, look at those first three years of shows and ask even the word viral didn't even make sense back then. And Colbert's not doing so well on the late show. Right. It was a less crowded field. It was a less competitive time. And I think,

you know, it's not entirely shocking. It's disappointing. I hate to see a whole bunch of people lose their jobs, especially. Like, it's a pretty good job. I think Trevor's show

is doing the best, I think, of all the things. I think it's doing like, it's still doing like half of Jon Stewart's. Half? Yeah,

I mean, there's so many ways to cut these numbers. When I was there, I know that it was doing the best among a certain demographic. Like, men between 18 and 34, it was doing the best among a certain demographic. Like, men between 18 and 34,

I think The Daily Show was killing it, but overall ratings, like Fallon, has got to be destroying it. It's just a much bigger... It's on NBC. He's been running that for a while. Very successful. Did you see the thing Trevor did us a while ago already about the African dictators comparing to the Chum? Yeah, I was there when that happened. God, was that funny.

That was one of the most beautiful moments of the new Daily Show. It was really great. And in retrospect, it even looks more wise than it was apparent at the time that he did it. Now with all the Russian stuff

and the Paul Manafort, Putin, et cetera. Anybody should Google the Daily Show African dictators. Donald Trump, African dictator. Oh, so funny.

It was the best thing. Oh, no, I just have one topic where you don't have too much time. We have time. Very quickly, you were talking on Facebook. You posted something. Yes. About, you know, that Bernie Sanders has bought a $600,000 summer home.

Good for him. Okay. Probably the first nice thing he's ever bought himself. Have you seen his suits before? I have no problem with the $600,000 summer home. It's a one-bedroom apartment. No one had an issue with it, however. thinking that it reveals that Sanders maybe has more money. But that's not even what I'm getting at.

Okay. On Facebook, you posted the following, and this struck me. You said, $600,000 on a summer home on a $200,000 joint income, a little home on a lake just for the summer. I make a pretty good living, this is what Noam writes, but that must be nice. Now, from that, I took it to mean that you're implying that you cannot afford a $600,000 summer home. This is really what you want to ask me?

Yeah. All right. Could I afford a $600,000 summer home? This is a part of a pattern with you. Obviously, a $600,000 home, you put down $100,000 and you pay a mortgage. Yes, I could probably swing that.

The question is that money is money that I would be using otherwise for something else. I would have to have more money for me to decide that I want to take out money out of my,

it's not just the mortgage, it's the insurance, it's the upkeep on home, it's the gardening, it's all the gas, electricity, everything that goes into keeping a home. Would I want to spend that few thousand dollars a month on something that I might use four or six weeks out of the year as opposed to what I use it for now. No, I don't feel like I have that money. This is Sanders' third home. And obviously, to keep three homes on a $200,000 salary is not really that plausible. It just doesn't make sense.

You'd want to do other things. But I told you in that Facebook thing. I mean, I don't know, Barrett Sundy, are you feeling the burn? Were you feeling the burn? I felt a little bit of heat. I definitely felt very warm. And ultimately, I was more of a Hillary person. But I have mad respect for Bernie Sanders.

Like, I wasn't just wildly dismissive. I thought he didn't do a great job of explaining some of the how. But I liked the push. Because he had of the how, but I liked the push. Because he had no idea about that. I liked the push that he provided. And I think the way he tapped into anger versus the way Trump tapped into anger, his is the right way to do it. I'll tell you very quickly, in a nutshell, my beef with Sanders. I always liked Sanders.

Long before he ran for president, I thought he seemed straight. Even if I didn't agree with him, there's always something charming about somebody you really feel is being honest. Yeah, he showed integrity. Yeah, just like, you know, even if it's ridiculous, it's like, well, how much can you hate a guy who's just saying what he thinks, you know? Except when he's thinking Mexicans are rapists. Again, like, there's a way to do

that that's terrible. Yes, but I would say that even with that example, it does mitigate in some way, but anyway. Go ahead. But with Sanders, it was does mitigate in some way. But anyway. Go ahead. But with Sanders, there was the issue of his taxes. And they asked him, why haven't you released your last five years of taxes or whatever it was?

And he says, well, you know, they're in my wife's filing cabinet. We've been very busy lately and we haven't been able to get to it. But we're going to get to it in the next couple of weeks. And I said to him, I said, wait a second. This is a fucking, all of a sudden he's become like another hack politician because obviously he can get to it. And then- Well, maybe it's on a high shelf though.

I don't know if it's obvious. Yeah, exactly. He might need an intern. And then a couple of weeks went by and he never released the taxes. And I said, wait a second, something's going on here because he's hiding something because he would have put them out there if they looked good for him. He finally released one year, which was the year that he prepared during the time he's hiding something. Because he would have put them out there if they looked good for him. He finally released one year, which was the year that he prepared during the time he's running for president.

Not the years when nobody was looking. And he went down immeasurably in my eyes. I started to do some research. His wife was making how much? 200 and something grand at the school. Good for her, sugar mama.

I have no problem with anybody making money. I have a problem with the sanctimony. His wife is making... No, he was the high sparrow in many ways. His wife's making a couple hundred grand.

He was making a couple hundred grand. Together, you know what they were? Top 1%. Yeah. And I believe what he was trying to hide

is that he was a member of that group. Although he had nothing to be ashamed of. Nothing to be ashamed of. Yeah. He should have just said, yeah, you know, we've been lucky in this country.

We want everybody else to have the same life that we've been so fortunate to have. But he didn't say that. He started telling bullshit. And then when he came out with his $600,000 home, I said, well, obviously, if you have a $600,000 home, you've saved some money away.

Maybe even in that banking system you've been railing against all this time, maybe some of that money grew on the stock market. And I say, you know, I mean, it is what it is. I don't want to make it more than it is. By the standards of politicians, it's probably a pretty low infraction. No, but he set a much higher bar for politicians than that. But the sanctimony bothers me.

And I just like tweaking my friends. That's a good way to do it. And I just like tweaking my friends. Yeah. That's a good way to do it. And I love the fact that none of them, none of my fucking friends say, you know, you're right about that. Like you just did. Yeah. Like here, you like the guy. But God bless you. You were like, yeah, you got a point.

That's all I want. So I say, yeah, you got a point, you know. But no, they're twisting it around. Yeah. Well, no, no. You may have a point. You know, I hear what you're saying. Don't defend the indefensible.

The guy was bullshitting when he said he couldn't release his taxes. And when somebody bullshits, you have a right to say, wait, you're bullshitting. Why are you giving him a pass? That's what he made his campaign about, calling other people bullshitting. Well, I don't know about any of that, but I still insist that Noam could afford a $600,000 summer home. I said I could afford it.

But it would be a stretch. Without breaking a sweat. Let me tell you something. Even so much as an increased heart rate. I'm going to tell you something. This is God's honest truth. We went up to Maine. My wife and I went up to Maine the other day.

Beautiful in the summer. Beautiful. Wonderful country up that way. A lot of water. And our closest friends are selling a condo right five minutes away from Kenny Bunkport. Ooh. And it's $180,000. That's $0 in New York City.

Very little money. And one of the guys says, should we get it? And we're like, no, we're not going to spend $180,000. We'll just go and rent a home on Airbnb. So $600,000? No. It's a lot of money.

And it's your third home. How does a guy making $200,000 have three homes? First of all, he's a lot older than you it's your third home. How does a guy making 200 grand have three homes? First of all, he's a lot older than you are. He's closer to death. Yeah, but he started saving right after the depression. That would help.

I'm just saying, he's got money, that's all. I don't begrudge him one little bit of it. No, I hear you. The sanctimony is the right word. Like the way he hit Hillary so hard on those speeches,

for example, he didn't want to be in the same club that he was smearing. Like, you just can't do that. That's right. He's Mr. High Sparrow from the Game of Thrones, and he's above it all.

And the fact is, like, he's a politician. He's probably done dirt as a politician. I'm not even accusing him of that. Not evil dirt, just, like, typical political stuff. Like, he's compromised. He's supported defense bills that probably made no sense because they created jobs in his district. He will not say a bad word about guns

because you don't do that in Vermont. And this is an interesting one. He filibustered against George W. Bush's immigration, what was considered to be a reasonable immigration bill. It was accused of giving amnesty and all that.

Sanders was not just against it, he filibustered against it because he felt the immigrants were going to lower people's wages. Somehow, nobody has really brought that up during the entire time, but you can Google it. It's absolutely true.

I guess everybody kind of gave him a pass because Hillary didn't want to alienate his followers any more than she had to. He totally flipped now that immigration is the thing. So he kind of violated his own socialist principles. Anyway, go ahead. Now, your name is Baratunde. Are you the son of immigrants?

Every black person is an immigrant in America because we're not entirely welcome here. Well, I can tell you one thing. You're welcome here at this table. Thanks, Dan. I'm a citizen of this table. He wrote a book. So no, my parents were both black Americans and their parents as well.

They picked the name to try to draw a connection to Africa that was lost by the magnificently large and horrific slave trade, but we don't have any actual ties to Nigeria where my first name is from.

It's a wonderful name. Thank you. It is a good name. I prefer Leonard Oates. I mean, it's not Leonard Oates, but Baratunde Thurston. That's a strong black name, Leonard Oates.

I'm going to stick with what I got. No, it's a wonderful name, Baratunde. Yeah. No, you say it really well. A lot of people don't. Well, it sounds like you need, really, to say it properly,

you need, what's that guy's name? James Earl Jones. James Earl Jones. Oh, I would love to get him to say my name. I just want to get famous people to just say my name. That would be so great. It's nice to hear you say it.

I mean, I remember meeting you when I was doing bringer shows back when I lived in Boston. Was I nice to you even then? You were really nice in the little subway car of the New York Comedy Club. He was frightened. Look, I just like that he was nice, okay? I don't care why. Nice is nice. With me, what you see is there's no lying in me.

What you see is what you get. That's actually true. Sometimes people will say, well, he's a little rough around the edges, but there's no bullshit. Yeah. There's no bullshit. Go ahead. Ask him about his book. Yeah, he has a book, How to Be Black.

Aren't you just born that way? That's the shortcut, but it helps to write a book because then you have something to say. So how to be black? So how does one be black? I believe Noam just answered that. You don't have to be born that way. I mean, Noam has a bunch of questions he wrote down,

but I'm just going to cut to the chase. Yeah, go ahead. And say, how to be black? Well, other than being born black, there's more to it than that? Have at least one black parent. And by the way, this is, just so you know, I raised a half black son.

Yeah. He's 22 years old now. And to make it, and his father's like legit black guy. He's a rapper. Legit black guy. Yeah, no. As opposed to those illegitimate black guys. No, no, no.

I'll tell you what I'm getting at. He's a rapper. He's not bougie. No, those illegitimate black guys. I'll tell you what I'm getting at. He's a rapper. No, no. But the son came out looking not obviously black. He could be... He could just be like

maybe Spanish or Middle Eastern. African American would not be what you thought he was. He could work as a spy. Which made the job of raising him as a black child even more weird. Yeah. Because he didn't face the black experience. In fact, I remember one time when he was in the third grade, he had spelling words.

And he had to use the words in a sentence. And the word was oppressed. He says, what's oppressed? And I'm like, oh God, I really failed you. Oh, that's awesome. I want that on video now. It really happened. I'm like, oh Nicholas, I have to apologize.

I really failed you. When a white father explains to his not obviously black son what oppression is, years too late. Had my suited Barneys oppressed. Oh man. So that's Irish. So anyway, so this had to be black. I needed this book for my son.

Where were you when I needed it? I didn't mean to interrupt you. I wasn't born yet. I was still working on it. I hadn't written books yet. But you mentioned oppression. It reminds me, one of the first books my mom ever gave me was a book about apartheid in South Africa when I was like eight years old.

And it was like, basically, this is oppression. So I got an oppression handbook at age eight. Apparently, that's the right year. Oh, that's the right year? That's the right year. So if you have any other kids like eight years old, and for those of you listening, like give them the oppression. Every Jewish kid that grows up with some sort of Jewish education,

there is a point that the parents sit you down and tell you, we are despised. And, you know, there's like a Holocaust curriculum at Hebrew schools. It starts like in the fourth grade. And so it's like, you know, growing up, you think, oh, all right, we're just like everybody else. And you don't really realize it. And then they sit you down. They tell you, no, we're hated.

And we'll probably be thrown out of America any day now. The Jewish folks have such a great template for kind of honoring history that I think a lot of us can learn from. I went to my first Passover Seder this year, and I was like, this is beautiful. What a way to honor all this stuff and basically not forget. And I think what America has tried to do with a lot of black suffering is like, oh, let's definitely forget this. Can we move on? Let's Snapchat this and move on as quickly as possible. Why do you say that? Because that's not my perception

of what America tries to do. I think, you know, what America likes to do is say, hey, this bad thing happened a long time ago. We didn't have anything to do with it, definitely. It was some assholes from history. Thank God they're not around. Anyway, we're all good now. Let's try to look to the future,

which is going to be super awesome. Everybody's going to be brown. I don't think that's healthy. Honestly, I don't mean to argue. Yeah, I'm not arguing. I'm answering your question. But I'm saying, give me an example of something America,

when you say America, whatever that means to you. They do this, but they should do that. So there is no memorial to slavery in this country. There's no national memorial to slavery. And for the institution that basically made us a superpower,

that's a pretty big historical... We have museums to air and space. There's no museum of slavery? No. There's African American. Well, that's it. That's not it. I think for the country whose entire basis of wealth was founded on stolen labor, like uncompensated labor for multiple generations.

That's not true. What part's not true? It's funny because I run into this problem all the time. I'm not soft on slavery. Don't get me wrong. But the fact is, and I was reading about this recently because people have this argument, that first of all, the North didn't have slavery. No, but they traded with England based on the profits of cotton. And the North was five times more wealthy than the South.

And by all the economic theories, we'd be wealthier if we had not had slavery. Let me put it a different way. I don't think it matters whether or not the country benefited from slavery economically or lost economically. It doesn't change one iota of the moral. I am skeptical. or lost economy. It doesn't change one iota of the moral. Of the moral. Yes, you're saying. I am skeptical. You know what it reminds me of? Some people,

they would support the death penalty because, listen, you know how much it costs to keep a prisoner? I'm like, you know what? It really doesn't matter if it costs a lot or a little. The question is,

is it okay to execute somebody? Yeah, but you're focused on the principle. If it's not, it's not. It's beautiful. In this country, most people like dollars and cents. But in terms of what

America could be doing differently, I think we like to pretend that A, and you can put this in a little parenthesis because you don't buy the economic argument, that part of our might today depends on that theft from long ago. But even more than that,

the suffering of today is tied to that suffering from long ago. That I agree with you. And so when we try to have arguments about why are black families the way they are or why are these black neighborhoods the way they are, you can't do that honestly without bringing history into it. And I think this country likes to be like,

oh no, it's just, you know, black kids should pull up their pants and these dads aren't home and their kids are playing video games. Like there's a, no one wants to remember that it was formal government policies over hundreds of years. And by the way, I never thought of this before

but it's interesting. Compare it to Germany. Yeah. I don't think anybody's going to make the argument that the Holocaust benefited Germany in any way. They didn't build their economy. None of it. None of it. None of the things that we claim as slavery.

Nevertheless, Germany is extremely conscious of the Holocaust. They do... You can't walk around Berlin without reminders. You're not even allowed to deny that it's illegal to... That's kind of my point. We don't need to go there in order to be fully aware

of it and understand that even, and Germany doesn't have a current legacy of Jews who have problems. In other words, it's just something that happened in their history and just the fact that it happened is enough for them to realize they have

responsibility. But Germany is a great counterpoint to the United States. You get my point. Yeah, because they did a reparations program, they did a huge historical acknowledgement program, they carried, they owned their shame. They didn't do the reparations willingly, but yeah. But it happened.

It was to the people who were actually, it goes to the people who were actually, the big challenge of reparations was slavery, and by the way, I think there is a logical, I don't support reparations, but I don't think it's a ridiculous argument. But the big problem is that the people who were slaves are not alive anymore. And some people who were black are not even descendants of the people who were slaves. And some people, I mean, it's such a difficult thing to unravel.

And then, and I'll tell you this, I also think, and I say be careful what you wish for, I don't think black America wants this. I don't think black America wants white America to say, listen, we paid them their reparations, now what else do you want from us? In other words, the idea of reparations is also settling of a score. I don't, but look, people said that when we got MLK Day,

people said that when Oprah became a billionaire, people said that when Obama became the black president, white America is always looking for an excuse

to close the account on black America's history. reparations is actually closing the account. But we've already had people try to move on. I don't think saying people are going to use

that as an excuse. How much? I want $600,000 so I can buy that vacation home that Bernie Sanders just got. But you do get my point. Yeah, I do.

And people would say that. No, no. The thing that I think is important for your listeners to hear is that a case for reparations is not about the literal lineage

and blood descent. It's about the position that African Americans in this country are still in. Wait a minute. I just had a... That's not the legal theory of reparations. I'm telling you what I think the theory of reparations is this country are still in. Wait a minute. I just had a... That's not the legal theory of reparations.

I'm telling you what I think a theory of reparations is. We're kind of running out of time. I think Baratunde is fascinating. Oh, we get to reparations and now we're running out of time. No, we're not running out of time. Oh, what a coincidence.

If you could show me... I'm saying he should talk to Steve and get rebooked because... And I had another idea. Oh, part two. Nice. I had another idea. Yeah. You know, we do a debate series

right here at the Comedy Cellar every month. I didn't know that. Now, why didn't we think of this sooner? Reparations, the debate with Baratunde as one of the, pardon? Calabria has already said that it's already in the works. All right. Have you booked the debaters? Because it seems like Baratunde might be very good for that, anyway, whatever. Let me say, just to be clear what I said,

that if you could show me direct lineage to a black guy in the old South who was made a slave, I'd say, listen, in that day, he should have had reparations, and that debt remains, and now I'm his descendant, and me and all his descendants,

whatever that money should have been, plus interest, we should get that money. And what I'm his descendant and me and all his descendants, whatever that money should have been, plus interest, we should get that money. And what I'm... But that's a logical argument that I can totally understand. But if you want to also say, and by the way,

I came 100 years later from Africa, but I'm also the same color as he is, so therefore I'm owed money now too on the basis of my DNA. You can make that argument, but it's a totally different argument, and it follows much less logically. You're talking about a confusing argument. We need another show for this.

You're using the word logic as if there's some clear line between what you're describing and what's right and just. We do need another show. I thought I described it clearly. No, no, you described it clearly, but it's not that one is logical and the other isn't. I think your... I don't know the logic for the other one. The other one is not like,

hey, random person came from Africa is now trying to make a claim on America's history. It's that the current position of the various black communities in this country with respect to housing, education, jobs, that is directly traceable to the continuing

legacy of slavery. It's not like slavery ended and everybody just... Listen to me, man. You can't just say that's not reparations when I'm describing to you what a reparations program might be because you have a fixed idea that it's only tied to an actual slave. Probably. But it's more about the idea would be that it's targeted at those an actual slave. Probably, but it's more about,

the idea would be that it's targeted at those black communities that are actually suffering and don't have resources. That's what I'm saying, it's not reparation. I'm not saying they shouldn't. That was a semantic argument.

I'm not saying they shouldn't get it. I'm saying that's what government policy maybe ought to be because its citizens are in need of whatever color they are. But it in need of whatever color they are. But it's not about whatever color they are. I do not think a black man in need is more entitled to the compassion

and help of his government than a white man in need, regardless of what color he is and regardless of what his history was. That's my point. And when you do that... Reparations is a legal concept of a debt.

Don't explain reparations. You're coming across as if you have a total understanding of what this word means and I'm telling you that when you say it's a debt, there is a debt owed to any black child that is in this country whose parent was not able to get a home

because their grandparents were redlined by government housing policies which prevented and moved black people out. When over-policing was official government policy, when clans were lynching people all over the south and you had to flee and move up to factories in Chicago, it's all connected.

It's a complicated, it is logic but it's a complex logic. I don't think the cause matters. I think they're in need. I think if without the cause, then we can't really fix the problem. If we just say, oh, everybody gets help from the government, we don't acknowledge that this government, whose policies are still not over yet, I find a point.

Reparations, if you are entitled to reparations in some normally, it doesn't matter. You could be a millionaire. It's your money. You're entitled to reparations. I don't It doesn't matter. You could be a millionaire. It's your money. You're entitled to reparations. I don't think the government wants to start giving money to rich African Americans who might have come here 50 years ago.

That doesn't... What I see happening here is you have a very fixed idea of what reparations mean and what the distribution of reparations payment would mean. You see ATM machines kicking out cash to anybody who says they're black.

That is not what I'm describing. And so I think there is a way to- I actually think we agree. I think- Yeah, no, but I think the language does matter. I think it's going to be useful to the listeners because it's helpful for me to hear you because I'm like, I don't think we're disagreeing either,

but I'm getting a little heated because of the way you're describing what is and isn't reparations. So let me be clear that I don't mean that just because you're black, you show up at the reparations bodega and you get like a check card. I think it's probably more community focused. It's at zip codes, school districts, housing areas that are in dire straits

that can be traced back to a legacy of denied home loans and stuff like that. I think we're arguing about semantics, and I'm kind of thinking what the dictionary says. But I think if we don't call it a word, what we're both saying is that... Justice is another word. That's right. America screwed up the black community, and America has a moral obligation

to do what it can to make good on what it's done to the black community. High-five me across the table, brother. First of all, I want to tell you what a great man you are, Baratunde. Dan hates when we talk politics, and he actually did not intervene to get us off politics in this one. He must have been interested in some way.

Well, I think that because, you know, it was interesting, and yeah, for some reason it worked for me today. Yeah. Maybe because it wasn't like, it wasn't quote unquote politics. And all of those Baratitones in the comedy world, so we're hearing a comedian's perspective on it rather than some Huffington Post reporters that don't need to be here.

Is there a Huffington Post reporter here? Well, there have been in the past. And I don't feel that they necessarily add anything that we can't ourselves talk about. Right. Write in and tell us, did you love baritones? What's the email here again?

What is it? Well, we have a few. We keep changing. You guys are hilarious. They all work. ComedyCellarShow at ComedyCellar.com ComedyCellarShow at ComedyCellar.com Or you just go to the Comedy Cellar website and do the contact us page. Click around. Let us know what you like. Did you love

Baratunde? I know that you did. You don't even have to answer that, guys. It's redundant. That's a rhetorical question. It's a waste of time. Special thanks to Greg Rogel nice to sit next to you you should come more often Greg is great on these shows and Baratunde

Dan Natterman Krista Montella goodnight everybody goodnight