The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Bari Weiss, Sean Donnelly, and Veronica Mosey

Episode Date: August 31, 2018

Bari Weiss is an American journalist. In 2017, she joined the New York Times as a staff editor in its opinion section. Sean Donnelly and Veronica Mosey are New York City-based standup comedians. They may be seen performing regularly at the Comedy Cellar.

You're listening to The Comedy Cellar, live from the table, on the Riotcast Network, riotcast.com. Good evening, everybody. Welcome to The Comedy Cellar show here on Sirius XM Channel 99. We're at the back table of The Comedy Cellar. My name is Noam Dwarman. I'm the owner and the goat. And newly, newly famous. Of The Comedy Cellar. I'm here with Dan Natterman, as always, and comedian Veronica Mosley. Hello. And Sean Donnelly, who was the host of the evening that Louis went on.

And we have a special guest, a real big shot. Barry Weiss is an American journalist. In 2017, she joined The New York Times as a staff editor in its opinion section. Welcome. Thank you. And I want to tell you, I just met you, and you're so warm and nice. And that's not the way most highfalutin intellectuals... I'm not highfalutin.

I write pop songs. They're just called op-eds. I'm not highfalutin at all. I'm middle-brow at best. Well, what a show we have today. Go ahead, Daniel. Well, I'm just saying, we're all so excited. Because this is where the action is in podcasting, folks.

I don't know what these other podcasts are talking about, but no way it's going to be as good as this podcast here today. That's always good. Over-hype it. A lot. We're, of course, going to talk about... She's pegged you already. Would everybody... Look. We're, of course, going to talk about... She's pegged you already. Would everybody...

Look. Look, every day nowadays, there's a new scandal or a new thing. But this week, it happens to directly concern the Comedy Cellar. The scandal of the week happens to directly concern the Comedy Cellar because Louis C.K. came here on Sunday night and performed. And, of course... And we didn't stop him.

And the social media has been talking about it non-stop. So let's just talk about exactly, precisely what happened. Louis came here on Sunday. Noam was at home sleeping like a baby. Sean, you were the emcee that night. Yeah. So exactly how did that transpire, that Louis came to you, I guess? No, I came off the stage from bringing Derek Gaines up.

And I got out, and Louis was in the hallway. I said, are you going up? And he said, yeah, I think so. And I asked him, do you want to light it any time? And he said no. And I said, okay, cool. I'll stick around. And then he went up and I brought him up. As an MC here, because I don't MC here.

I used to, but I haven't in a while. What is the standing order with regard to certain... Is there an explicit list of guests that are allowed to just come on and perform? No, it's just a known list of guys that are big names that if they want to go up, they go up. Can I ask you a question? Yeah.

Did it occur to you that maybe this particular time you might run it by somebody, or that there might be some decision here or you just knew that we would... Who was managing? Val was managing. I went up and I told Val, I go, Louie's here and Val went down and he was like, yeah, I'm going to go up and then... Yeah.

Val's the manager. I made sure to mention it to Val, but I just thought that I wasn't told, don't put this person up. No, no. We wouldn't put him on us. I'm just trying, I'm curious if you were aware of what a momentous thing this was. Um, no, I don't think I was. I did not think of it in those terms.

You didn't realize it was going to be a worldwide story. No, I didn't. I knew it. No, I didn't. Please direct all hate mail to Val. They're comedians, Barry. They're not... No, but you, okay, but to be fair, you knew that he hadn't performed since the whole scandal, right? Yes.

That's not true, right? He performed earlier that night. Yes. I didn't know. I didn't know that until he got here. No, I didn't know that We should mention

he had performed prior that evening at Governor's Comedy Club and the silence is cacophonous with regard to his performance there. Now, can I... I think that the details of what happened and everything are very well

rehearsed and available to anybody. Why is Keith making a smirk at me? Is this what you're talking about? Anybody who's aware of the story is kind of aware of these details. But let's get into... I'm sorry, I just, I do think it's telling, though, that you weren't aware that it was going to be

a story. No, you know, I didn't think of it at the time. I'm like, the guy's such a fixture here and like you know he's done a lot for the place and it's such a big deal and i still think of him as a big name comedian right exactly so there was a no-brainer in my in my in my head to like that he was going to go up i'm like he's i he's synonymous with this place he's here all the time like so did i know because you know why because it was a 15 minute set he was he was going up to like it wasn't a big deal it's a set at a comedy club i just didn't it didn't occur to me till you know later on i guess that that he would have i just i didn't you know i figured the people would be excited about like people got so excited about it i was like oh okay this is great

how did you can i ask can i, what was the atmosphere in the room? Because the reporting is that he got a standing ovation before he even started. It didn't say standing. It got picked up as standing ovation. If you read it, it just said an ovation. He didn't get a standing ovation. Never reported standing ovation. And also, somebody said that he got booed.

He did not get booed. How did you intro him precisely? I said, this is kind of exciting. You guys know exactly who he is. No need for an introduction. Louis C.K. Right. That's what you do every time a celebrity comes on here. I just want to mention a couple of articles.

One in Vulture, a very reputable source. They said that it was a sneaky way that he went on and he was thrust on the stage. He was thrust upon the audience. No, he was not. What I'm saying is that's what we do here, though. You never put,

he's not going to be listed on the lineup. You'll have a billion people out in the street. Everyone's thrust upon the audience. Correct. So it's just this kind of wording. I'll tell you guys, I'm worried about eating up precious time and not having enough time to talk about

really the controversy of it and the philosophical problems with it. Well, if we have to go long, we'll go long. It's just too important to skimp on detail. But I will say this. We have to do a double episode. We'll do like a Hawaii Brady Bunch thing. And I think Barry is probably along the same lines here

wanting to know, were you surprised when he went on that he didn't open with some sort of remark that understood the importance of what he was doing? Yes, it occurred to me after the set was done, it occurred to me he didn't mention anything like make any kind of thing about it. But I was just, I also, I'm like, the way I thought of it was like

he can say whatever he wants. He's a grown person. Also, it didn't occur to me as much because I was like, this is a workout set at, it wasn't like this main stage, I'm doing Radio City, I'm doing a special where he's going to talk about it. It was like, this is a workout set at, it wasn't like his, this main stage. I'm doing Radio City. I'm doing a special where he's going to talk about it.

Like, it was like a workout set in a club he's been to a thousand times before. So, I don't know why this would be the forum for him to be like, just so the people of Earth know, I'm back and I am sorry. But, like, I don't get, that's why it didn't occur to me right away. But then I was, he didn't mention it at all. So, I was like, oh, I figured he would have a joke about it or something, or like something funny to say about it but he didn't, and I was like, that's fine because he can do what he wants he's a person

I agreed, Noam, you had said that you thought that he should have, it would have made things better if he had, correct? There's a whole line of thought if you take it from what was best for Louis C.K., without regard to anything else take it from what was best for Louis C.K. without regard to anything else, just like crisis management was best for Louis C.K. And he seemed to do the exactly opposite of everything that one would probably advise him to do.

But I don't even think it's crisis management for Louis C.K. I think it's that I should say, like, I've been a Louis C.K. super fan for a long time. And I'm so jealous that I wasn't there the other night to see this, because it's historic. But it's in keeping with sort of the high bar that we have for him, to think that he would go on and address

it frontally. I think it's sort of just surprising, given my high expectations for his comedy, that he would address it. I have the wherewithal to know to not jerk off in front of people you know i'm saying i'm being honest i mean i'm just saying here's a guy he does veronica i'm sorry no i'm come on now this is being completely honest why are we why are we shocked you know what i mean that he didn't have the wherewithal to be like you know yeah but i think for sure as a veteran i think he should

have written a really solid opener about but one of the things that has been so sort of maybe heartbreaking and maybe fascinating about the whole thing with him is that his comedy has always been so self-aware, despite the fact that obviously in his real life, he was, at least in these instances, I don't know him personally, more than tone deaf. I mean, completely inappropriate. Guys.

So I would just... Like I said, sorry, but this was the workout phase of it. No, no, no. That mean, completely inappropriate. Guys. So I would just... Like I said, sorry, but this was the workout phase of it. No, no, no, but that's a good point. I agree.

I agree with you. No, I think it's a good point that she makes because... Why? That's not a good point that I make. Hang on, hang on. Because it's...

Maybe we've gotten away from the way I framed it. Saying what's best from Louis' point of view. That's how... So once we're thinking it from his head if you were advising him you would have to listen this is gonna be a worldwide story and you've got to think about what you're gonna say you said you're going out yeah you're gonna think about it you're gonna listen yeah and you're gonna take some to

listen okay and the natural question is okay you've listened for nine what did you learn and if he just said something somebody else described described it, he needed to come to Jesus' moment. He needed to say, listen, I've been gone for... And I've changed and I realize that I'm going to try to... And then that would have been the headline. We're just saying I heard you. I think if you said that, it would have been awesome. Yeah, and I just think it seems...

It seems... Sorry, I just think it seems unbelievably tone-deaf and sort of thoughtless for him to get up and make jokes about tipping waitresses or whatever it was. I agree with you, Barry. I do agree with her.

I think, again, we've known him as a guy who is extremely self-aware. That's what you're saying. I totally agree. Well, not when he made Poodie Tang. That's true. I suppose it's possible, though I doubt it, that he did a 15-minute mea culpa at Governor's Comedy Club. No, not a 15-minute.

You interrupted me. I said at Governor's Comedy Club. Dan, take it easy. She. You interrupted me. I said at Governor's Comedy Club. Dan, take it easy. She's going to think you're crazy. She stepped on my punchline. Oh, you had a... She's a comedian. It's the worst possible sin in comedy.

Anyway. I apologize. So listen... Glad to know this is a venue for you to work out your own material. I'm not working on anything. It's just a throwaway. So it's a...

I believe what we've done is we ran afoul of what is a nascent but forming third level of a justice system. I hate to just take it to that. Oh, my God. Because I think it's important chronologically is we need to know what you would have done had you been here and not at home sleeping. If I had been here, I think I would have spoken to him and asked

him, like, what are you going to say? And if he said nothing, I would have tried with all my might to say, Louis, I think that's a bad idea. But if he said, I really want to do it, you would have let him go up. Yes, yes. I think that's a correct decision. Like, let him meaning, it's not your responsibility as the owner

of the venue. you're here to give people an opportunity to go up and fall on their own sword or not. That's the whole game. And I don't know what your relationship is with him but as a friend, if I were his friend I would have like begged him not to go up if he didn't have material on it. But I just think it's

shocking. I don't know. I don't know. I just think it's really surprising that this would have been his first thing. Let me ask something. If he would have went up and said shocking. I don't know. I don't know. I just think it's really surprising that this would have been his first thing. Let me ask something. If he would have went up and said something, you don't think that whatever he said would have been attacked for not being sincere enough? Possibly the next day. Or being tone deaf?

No, no, no. He's making light of things? No, I don't. I don't agree. I think he would have been attacked. No, no, listen. As a woman, I would say that for women who are super up in arms and crazy about the whole thing, I don't think that, I think at least saying, I think I heard you would have been perfect. I heard you.

I said I would listen and I heard you. That's you though, that you're different. Yeah. I don't count. I always don't count though. Female comics don't count. Hold on. There's some people you can't please.

But you have to do the right thing. And in the end, I think when you do the right thing, history looks back very kindly. And when all the dust settles, he did the, and that would have been

the right thing to do. And if people didn't accept it, listen, I'm in that same situation. I'm like, listen, I think I'm doing the right thing here and I'm going to take

the flack now. I was just expecting that the first time Louie would come out the gate, it would be like a major special about this. It should have been. Or it should have been

a controlled environment. I was having, Robert Kelly, who's another comedian, was at my house that day, Sunday, just by coincidence. What was he doing at your house?

And we were talking about, and I said, if Louie wants, because he speaks to Louie sometimes, I said, if Louie wants to come back, I said, tell him I think

it should be like an actual show, a Louie show, but we'll make sure that who's in the audience, we'll sell some tickets, but we'll make sure that there's nobody there to heckle him, whatever it is. And he'll say whatever it is. And he'll do a few shows, and it'll be a big story. And then people will get used to the fact Louis is already back doing shows.

And then, because I was worried about this irate audience thing always. I knew that he would get ambushed. I mean, I knew that people would feel that they were ambushed. I knew that people would start coming after him. But by the way,

it doesn't sound like they did think that. From what I read, you got one complaint. That day. That day. And then the media reaction. Your audience is not Twitter.

Well, okay. Since then, I've heard just, I'm not reading anything about it, but that somebody else might have contacted one of the things and complained about something. Vulture had an article in which two women that were here said they felt ill at ease.

Oh, I didn't see that. But once the story is out, I mean, I'm getting really horrible emails from people. You know, nobody threatened to kill me, but language of somebody who's kind of... What are they saying? You're a piece of dog shit. I see right through you.

If I see you, I would spit in your face. You know, this kind of thing. And every single person I answer the same way, you know. I understand how you feel, and we're torn between principles here, but if you'd like to speak to me on the phone or speak to me in person I'd be happy to do that and nobody

of course not it's trolls writing one or two people actually have been high brow about it or whatever the word is been nice about it but for the most part no they just come back with something even nastier that's the way they are now what if Louis comes tonight and says, I want to go home?

No, I don't know. Listen, he's not coming tonight. Can we talk about the larger issue, which is that, and I started to say, it seems like there's a new, like the kangaroo court of public opinion now, which actually, with all the modern technology, has the ability to mete out punishment harsher even than our institutions used to have. Like, I had a talk with a comedian today. I didn't know him, but called me from California. I was like, well, how long do you think it should be

before Louis goes on? He says, never. He should never go on. I said, well, what about it? Is there no avenue to a clean slate? He goes, no, you don't ever get a clean slate for this. I said, but no court would ever think of punishing A, taking away somebody's livelihood, let alone forever.

He's like, yeah, well, that's the way I think it should be. And he said, and if you ever put in mind you're sending a message that you don't care about. I mean, so what is it? This was a comedian that said this? Yeah, but I don't know his name. I find it so interesting that the kind of people who argue against zero tolerance, right, and argue for, I think rightly, criminal justice reform.

For example, I was reminded today of, do you guys remember the Times ran a profile like a year ago of this woman? I think her name was Michelle Jones. She got she murdered her four year old child and ended up in jail for 20 years and ended up sort of getting into academia from prison and is now at NYU getting her Ph.D. And the big outrage among a lot of people on the left was screw Harvard because they rejected her application. Absolutely. Okay, this is someone who murdered her child. And you see those same people saying, Louis C.K., let's just give it the most harsh read, stymied the careers

of several female comics, and he should never be able to show his face in public again. I don't understand how to square those two things when they are almost always expressed by the same people.

I agree with you. I don't get it. A thousand percent, and that was the dilemma. What makes, even let's just, what he did I don't think constitutes a sex crime, but let's even say it did, that it's an indecent exposure. Why are sex crimes somehow unique? They're not.

They're just like, this is getting treated as if it's like... They're the crime of the day. They're the crime of the.... They're the crime of the... Right, but it's puritanical. In other words, somebody who beats their wife would be more likely to be forgiven. Yeah, anything but this right now. This is the thing. You're actually echoing things that I've actually said almost. And in my private moments, listen, I didn't want this.

I mean, I have a family. I don't need to get boycotted and things like this. And I'm struggling. Well, if I didn't want to put him on, like, what am I going to say? What am I going to say that I can live with myself or that I can hold my head up and say the reason I wouldn't, you know? And I couldn't come up with a principle. And so I said, I can't do it. I got to go through it. And let me just tell you.

So I got contacted by the New York Times. can't do it i i gotta i gotta go through and let me just tell you so i got contacted by the new york times and then i got this really bad complaint from this guy and i felt that he was gonna go public with this so let's guy in the audience yeah okay so before i had a chance to speak to him and i said i better i better talk to the times at least i i can control the story so that in front of it and i said i'll i'll speak

to you on the condition that's uh... you'll print my statement verbatim and answer i got we didn't say to deal he said um... i don't see any problem with that yes so i gave i gave him a statement was a little bit too long and uh... but it could have been cut down but they that the woman molina rizzo coin all she cut it down

but in that statement, I had said, I don't understand when Mike Tyson is touring with his show and Bill Clinton, who certainly is done, is, you know, being, being invited to charity events and Monica actually disinvited what standard anybody wants to apply here. And she would not run my statement if it mentioned Bill Clinton. She refused to write. And I said, why? She goes, well, then we would take too long. We'd have to explain it.

Why? Hold on, hold on. I said, you can link to the story. No, I can't do that. I said, but this is my statement. You're quoting me. It's a news story. You're not reporting it, so you have to explain Bill Clinton.

She says, no, I can't put in Bill Clinton. So I was so angry. And so, and I don't understand. I mean, I feel like, and again, I know her and I like Melina Rizk, but if she agreed with me, she would have found a way

to put the Bill Clinton statement in. And this is the world we're living in. And I got terrible experiences with one news outlet had me on, and then they ambushed me with two, you know, really anti-Louis people without warning me. Everybody was, not everybody, most of them were quite dishonorable. The Hollywood Reporter was by far the best. They let me say whatever I wanted.

They edited it, but they edited it fairly. And it was afterwards when it came out and there was something that I thought they left out, she put it back in. So I want to big up to the Hollywood reporter. Anyway, I'm rambling now. Well, I think the big question,

right, is what do we want? What do people want? Right. So who at the table, if you're going to make the devil's advocate argument why we shouldn't have put Louis on stage, maybe Barry, what would be the argument? What's the best, if you're going to make the devil's advocate argument why we shouldn't have put Louis on stage,

maybe Barry, what would be the argument? What's the best, most fair, you know, fair to that side? What is the reason why I shouldn't have put him on? Because that's the reason I have to be able to answer. Do you know what that would be? Yeah, I guess I could channel that answer. I think the argument there would be a little bit like the piece Rebecca Traister wrote, the too much, too soon. And then I'll tell you what I really think about it. But I think the

argument would be... We've had her on the show, by the way. Interesting. She's really smart. I think that the argument would be Louis C.K. Their argument would be, sorry, Louis C.Kk like what he did is not only did not only violate sort of the dignity and i don't know safety maybe they would even say of the women he exposed himself to but through his position of power and his connection to all of these people in the industry sort of work to systemically keep voices, not just of these women, but maybe others connected to them out of the industry. And by putting him on stage, you're sort of whitewashing that,

especially not even 10 months after he said he was going to go off into the wilderness for his soul searching. I mean, I think that's their argument. You're a female in comedy. What do you think about that argument? A woman in comedy. I don't care. Female, woman, whatever. Just give me work. I don't know.

I think it's, I hear the argument. Are you asking me to give you a different one or to what I think? Let's add to that. Are we like giving that its most generous articulation? I think, to be honest with you,

what would have helped him, again, I don't, in the public eye, what is sincerity? Stick to the question. I am. I am. I have a point. Okay. You know, whether we're sincere or insincere, I think if Louis...

Louis should have been on stage, according to these people who complained or whatever, only if he had made some sort of reparations somehow. Whether he had offered money to the women that he supposedly destroyed careers for, which I think there were like one. Do you think he destroyed anybody's career? I don't. I know one situation, there's a possibility, and it would have to be looked into where he was working on a pilot and all this stuff was happening. That's the one with Courtney Cox and David Arquette? Yeah, that's the only one.

Rebecca Corey. Wait, let me ask. I don't know the details, so I don't want to really get too deep into it, but I'm saying if it can be proven that by his actions, the show had to shut down and therefore money was lost, then I think that if that can be proven, then absolutely, then he should say, hey, here's, you know.

But didn't they not shut it down and they went ahead with it anyway? I, like I said, I don't know. I don't know the details as to why it didn't come out. But my point is that's the only case. The other one, I think the women who were at Aspen, I still argue, I'm sorry, but I was at Aspen the year after. Everybody knew the story. The women, everything was tee hee hee.

This is so funny. And can you believe what happened? I had heard it. I'm not even in comedy. But that's what I'm saying. Everybody heard it. It was just this funny thing. What did you hear?

What did you hear? I'm comedy adjacent enough that I heard that Louis was a creep, that he had hit on various people I knew, and it was fucking disappointing because I was a fan of his. And then I heard that in Aspen. It was all in jazz. Oh, wasn't it funny? He was crazy. He jerked off in front of these girls.

So you're saying that you feel they weren't really upset as they're claiming? Absolutely. I don't believe that they... They're claiming that they destroyed their lives and all this stuff, and I'm saying what got around the grapevine was that it was a funny, crazy

thing that happened, much like if you were at a frat house and somebody did a keg stand and then took their top off or whatever. That could be. But of course, we don't really know what their reaction was. We don't.

But what I'm saying is in order for him to get on stage, what did it's like if he had maybe gone and volunteered in women's organizations, had maybe listened to abuse victims or done something publicly to let people know, I'm trying to make amends for what happened. Even if he was insincere as shit, the public would have embraced him better. And that's a critical part of that side's argument. By the way, Sean Donnelly had to leave. He's emceeing.

That's Michelle Wolfe. She made fun of me on her show. Oh, no! I'm Barry Weiss. You made fun of me on your show. Now you want to come? Come on. Come on, Michelle. No, no. I'm Barry Weiss. You made fun of me on your show. Come on, Michelle. No, no, it's okay. So, go ahead.

Yeah, you go. Of course, we've been talking about this. We've talked about the Louis incident several times when it first broke and all that. But the one thing that one issue is is what exactly happened in that hotel room? And Noam has made the point several times that we don't precisely know. And in order to really know, we would have to have some sort of investigative process.

Let me ask you, first of all, I want to, it's very important for the sake of argument that we assume the worst is true, because the worst could be true. That he blocked the door. So we have to have an argument that accounts for the worst being true. So I'm not saying it's not true, but Melina Rizek, when I spoke to her, I said the Gawker rumor was that he blocked the door, that he was on the bed and he blocked the door. And that would have been a serious crime. And I asked her, did you ask the girls if he blocked the door? She says, yes, I asked them. No, I'm the women, please.

I asked the women if I... She said yes. Sorry, I'm protecting you. You'll get crushed for that. Thank you. You'll cut that out, right? So I asked the woman, I said, did you ask the women if he blocked the door? She says, yes, I asked them. What did they say? uh... you'll you cut that out right size i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i I felt like, oh, she asked a question but was only ready to run the answer if she got the answer which suited

the way she was going so that gives me a queasy it doesn't mean that any of it's untrue but that's why I am with everybody I speak to, as soon as I detect something like that, I add salt that's just the way it is and I think I'm being fair

I think I'm being fair with that I wonder if someone's going to come up with sentencing guidelines for me, too. Well, this is the problem. Well, you know, I've got to also say this, too. In the business, and nobody wants to talk about this, there's a certain amount of flirtation that happens between male and female comics.

It happens all the time. Okay. We've got to stick to the Louis thing. I am, I am, but that's what I'm saying. I was in a hot tub with Robert Kelly in Aspen. We were just hanging out in the hot tub. Now, if we had brushed feet, I could have said... I don't like the direction this is going in

because it sounds like we're trying to mitigate what he did, and that's not the point. I want to talk about it as if he did it and that it was still okay or not okay to put him on. I don't, and it's going in the wrong... We're going to get blamed for blaming the victim or whatever it is, and it's not even a conversation I want to have, and I actually don't even agree with it,

but even in another time we could talk that way. I think it's wrong to bring that type of talk into this conversation. I think it would be a big mistake. Okay. I think we've got to talk about what Barry said, which is, so can you you not show that argument against what what what's the best argument for not putting them on

i just did it it did not just about five minutes of giving him a given i want our sponsor i remember what it was that the biggest argue that the three sentence argument would be it's too much too soon he did not show that he had actually gone out into the wilderness, the proverbial wilderness, and done the soul searching that he promised his public that he would.

But of course we couldn't know that until after he went on. Okay. But with a good opener or a good explanation, he could have told us that. And then indeed, someone with his level of wealth and power, not only does he need to make some kind of amends or reparations to the women that he hurt and maybe stymied their careers,

but in fact, if he really wanted a show of good faith, he could have done something more broad like volunteering or all of the other things that you said. I think that's the argument. I mean, that's certainly the argument that Rebecca Tracer made. Produced an all-female lineup. That would have been so...

I mean, the problem I have, that's certainly the argument. Produce an all-female lineup. That would have been so, you know. The problem I have, though, with the too soon thing is they're really ducking the question. Like, the question is, when would it be kosher? Right, I agree. And they aren't offering any answer at all. They're just like, we know it, we just know this time was too soon. Okay, so would a year and a half be okay? I feel like there's a lot of sort of virtue signaling going on to say we're on the good side, we're on the right side,

we're on the side of the women that he assaulted or abused or whatever language we want to use. But okay, so what's the next step? So when? So let me ask you this. Because my attitude... And by the way, I just want to reiterate. I think that it was very, very ill-advised and tone-deaf for him to do a set without frontally addressing what he did.

So my attitude is, A, that I don't want to be judging jury because I don't know... What's the matter? It's a little hard to hear. Oh, Keith. I don't want to be judging a jury because of the things I said before. There's no way for me to know. And then there's no way to apply a consistent standard about when is enough, when is not enough.

Nobody knows these things. But there's another part of me which is like i would never put a nazi comic on but not for the reason you think i wouldn't put him on because i know i get bashed but the truth is if al martin down the street put on like some nazi comic and there was a show when they went to it i would actually find that interesting i i don't think that i i wouldn't feel that i'm supporting the guy like i would want to go see that i I would want to go learn from that. It would kind of bring into higher definition, higher definition the world that I live in. And I think that Louis, like, all the stuff we're talking about.

What's the distinction? You'd go down the street, but you wouldn't host them here? I wouldn't host them here because I would be afraid of, nobody would understand. But I'm saying me as a person, like, I just want everything unfiltered. Like, I think it's interesting to the meet two people and to you guys were how louie did come back but then we're learning something about him and maybe

that the birth of the psychology of somebody did these kind of things like ike ike don't think we need to be protected from everything if it if it dude who did something bad possible on stage and talk to people about it to people who want to hear him talk about it, I don't see that as sending a message in support of it or not. I would go listen to a terrorist speak if he's not arrested. When I was a kid in college, Mayor Kahana came to speak at the university,

and he was kind of a racist guy. No, no, he was a racist guy. He was a racist guy. But it was an important thing to listen to. I'm happy that I was able to listen to him. Not because I liked him. What? No, I mean, now, in the interview you did with The Hollywood Reporter,

and I believe in the CBC interview, the Canadian broadcasting company, you had said that you felt legitimately bad, that people might have felt ambushed, that people might have been made on. Obviously, your highest priority is your audience. Yes. And by putting somebody on that may provoke

upset without warning. Especially when it's not necessary. You did feel bad that some people might have been upset because they didn't know Louis was coming. And that in future you might consider having some sort of warning. Yeah, that's as a businessman.

Why would I want to alienate and upset? I mean, listen, people look forward to it. They make reservations. They save up their money. They go out on a Saturday night. And if this is going to upset them and I could actually still let Louis perform without upsetting them, why would I not want to do it in that way? So how might you go about doing that in the future?

Because I assume this is going to come up again. Likely it will. I mean, we could warn customers beforehand, listen, we know that Louis C.K. is going to be appearing. I think he needs to go on the lineup. Something like that. I think you need to...

I would talk to him now after this and say, listen, man, you got to do something and freaking address it. This is like... It obviously doesn't work. That's two issues. One issue is should he address it on stage? The second issue is warning the audience that he might show up. I don't want to go into it.

I've thought of a few different scenarios of ways to. What about a warning? No, hang on. What's that? You said you don't want to go into this? But this is so interesting. Like, how are you going to manage it? Yeah, I think that one way could be

to give out the checks so that everybody can leave as soon as they want to leave and then say, hey, we have a last minute guy who wants to come if anybody wants to stick around. It's Louis C.K. The reason people felt they couldn't leave is because they have to pay their check and all that kind of stuff.

Some way to make it easy. Listen, if you don't want to come, if you don't want to stay, just go. I mean, isn't that generally known in a comedy club, though? I'm just saying. Ignore that it's Louis C.K. You go to any show, you could find somebody that says something that makes a joke that annoys you and makes you want to leave the room. There's no percentage in it. But that's comedy, though.

Well, yeah, you could be right. But if there's a way to get around it, then I would like to get around it. Listen, I need to have happy customers. No, I know, but I think the majority of the customers are happy. I need all of them to be happy. I encourage people to write. Oh, she's away. Go ahead. Barry disagrees.

First of all, you run a comedy club. Not everyone's going to be happy with every comic. Let me just rephrase it. I need to take all reasonable, I need to be a defensive driver. I don't want to just drive blindly if I know I'm going to run into an accident and it can be avoided. You're right, I can't please all the people all the time. But if I know that this is going to upset people, then I should stop and say to myself, wait a second. Can I accomplish the same thing and upset, not upset them or upset fewer people?

Well, here's my question though. Don't most people who go to comedy clubs go because they know that they're going to hear kind of thinking outside the box? This is not about Louis' material. This is about Louis. It's not about his thinking outside the box or not. Okay, but let's talk about the fact, I know it wasn't a standing ovation, but that he got a big round of applause, right? A very warm, yeah. And so in the Rebecca Tracer piece I was talking about, before she sort of took issue with that,

and it's like, you know, the reason that he's getting applause is he's just getting applause because he's just for being Louis C.K. As if, like, you know, that's an insidious thing. But I don't know. Like, to me, the fact that he got that warm reception speaks to something that I've been thinking about a lot

since the Me Too movement began, which is that there is a chasm between what people say about this movement publicly and what they sort of think privately. I think I said that in the reporter interview. Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I've been writing about this since it started. But I just find that really interesting.

And to me, the fact that he got such a warm response could maybe be a sign that people think that it is time for him to come back, despite what the arbiters of the culture tell us. Now, Barry, that could be, and likely is. I mean, there is obviously disparity between what people tweet and what people think. Huge, what we've seen. But also, the people that come to the Comedy Cellar are a pre-selected group. Right. These are comedy fans.

Most people, I think, know that there's a close association between Louis and the club. That's not... Well, it's in the show. It's in the show. It's in the Louis show. So you're getting people that are already at least 90% of the... Primed to be, yeah. Primed maybe% of them. Primed to be. Primed maybe to see Louis.

You know, this is that kind of place. But, Noam, as far as warning them, I suggested to you, I think I texted you, what about just a banner on the website saying, hey, you never know who's going to show up. Our policy is we let, we don't delve, generally speaking,

as a general matter, into the private affairs of our comics. And just as a warning, Louis might stop in or whomever. Well, I think the next sort of criticism of the comedy seller, like the next wave of it's going to be, have you, no, I'm done enough to promote female comics in this venue. Well, that's been a long-standing issue with this venue. That's definitely going to be the next thing. That's already been a long-standing issue with this club. In terms of the perception, we had Guy Branum on who felt that we didn't have enough.

It's not a long-standing issue with this club. It's a long-standing issue with stand-up comedy. Not particular to us. But this is a club that people come after because it's the most prominent. But it's the most prominent club, so people come after. I think that Esty does a good job of being fair with trying to offer female comics.

She also has to think about, you know, there's so many things to think about in a lineup. It's like you could have, if you don't want, it's like you want, there's a black guy, then there's like a gay guy,

and then there's like a white guy, and then there's a girl, then there's a lesbian. It's like, well, it's like there's so many things to think about in diversity, right? In casting a lineup. There's a lot of thought that goes into that. No, there's a lesbian. There's so many things to think about in diversity, in casting a lineup. There's a lot of thought that goes into that. No, there's not.

We don't give that a lot of thought. We don't. What do you give thought to? Who is going to do the best? But you offer a diverse lineup, is what I'm saying. Thank God the human race is rich in talents. You're twisting what I'm saying. No, I'm not twisting what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that

I offer a diverse lineup because humans being diverse in talent, if you don't discriminate against them, you wind up with diversity when it's in a proper environment. What I'm saying is Esty's trying to please the crowd by booking a varied amount of people. You're not going to have an all

women show. It's not going to be a lineup of eight girls at the comedy cellar. You're not going to have an all-women show. It's not going to be a lineup of eight girls at the Comedy Cellar. That's not going to happen. For instance, right now, for whatever reason, we have a spate,

like a bevy of Indian comics. Like six or seven really funny, right? Like Indian comics. Men, men, women? No, all men. And like, who would have ever thought,

like where did the, and you know, came here two years ago, like how come you don't have any brown people comedians? How come you have only Aziz? Like, I don't know. Those like, where did, and, you know, came here two years ago, like, how come you don't have any brown people, comedians? How come you have only Aziz? Like, I don't know. Those are the people we have to book from.

And now you are two years later, and we have, like, I don't know, 15% of the lineup all of a sudden is Indian. That's just the way it works out. And I am stubborn about not starting to say, okay, we need a woman and a man, because the show's going to stink. And I think it's insulting. I don't want to come to you and say, listen, I had to book you. I needed a woman, so I booked you. That's not what I'm saying. Wouldn't that be insulting? I don't know.

I don't know about that question. You wouldn't be insulting to know that I didn't book you because I thought you were the funniest? No, I get booked because I'm fucking hilarious. I'm just saying. But what if I was just going on hilarity, I would have hired another Keith, another black guy. I'm saying. And I said, but you know what? I can't have another.

I have two black guys on the line. I can't have one. I need a woman. That is insanity. When people say that there aren't enough women booked here, I disagree with that. I was actually trying to support the theory of trying to book for the divorce. But the thing is that the way I speak, they will use it as ammunition. Right.

Because I think, like when I was a kid, the lack of diversity, people assumed, well, if you're not racist, you're not bigoted, you would have diversity. So if we look out and see no diversity, that's kind of evidence that we need to take a magnifying glass. What's going on here? It morphed into diversity has to be the end. It doesn't matter why there's no diversity. And that's where I think we really lost our way as a society. I mean, they don't do that on the NBA. There's various places they don't do that.

You mean like it's diversity has morphed into tokenism or something? Yeah. I'm trying to understand what you're saying. What I'm saying is they'll look at my lineup, and they don't care. They don't say, well, you know, that's suspicious. Would you mind showing us who was available to you that week? You know, I'm saying if they had perfect access to everything. They don't say that.

They don't care who was available to me. They'll say, like, well, if there were no women who called in that week, you should have found one because this is not acceptable. We start from the end, and we're going to work backwards until you work it out. And, you know, like a lot of the things we're talking about, they make this up as they go along. Who's the they?

Who are we talking about? Who is the they? The left. You know, like, I know you don't want to talk about you can't talk about this, but like there was all these things you can't you can't talk about a person's skin color and blah, like, I know you can't talk about this, but like, there was all these things. You can't talk about a person's skin color and blah, blah, blah. And then they want to hire Sarah Jung.

So now they have to kind of work backwards to a different standard where you can't talk unless you're counter-trolling, which is kind of this exception. We never mentioned it. We always had this exception for counter-trolling. And I'm like, good, hire Sarah Jung. But when it was Kevin... kevin williamson i actually believe that they transpose that if the sarah jung thing happened first and now the kevin williamson that they would have been able to fire kevin williamson

but it's like what world is it that a guy who's pro-life which are allowed to be pro life and writes about it and smart dude that is unacceptable but you can have sarah jung it's a world where you're working backwards from your conclusion. This is how I want it to come out,

and I will find some clever way to thread the needle. But I think, without getting into the Sarah Jung thing, I don't know if you guys know who that is, that's going to be a colleague of mine at the New York Times. She's a great writer. We discussed her at length on a previous episode. Interesting. Okay, glad I wasn't here for that one.

No, no, no, no, no. The one thing I will say is, I think the Times, I think, and Brett Stevens wrote about this in his column, not giving in to the internet mob is a very good policy. I'm telling you that because it sounds like you're in the midst of a little bit of a shitstorm. What you feel is a shitstorm right now. And, like, in the end of the day, day, the people that matter are the people that are paying

to have their tushes in the seats downstairs. That's who matters. I love it when you talk dirty. Well, I am like... By the way, I'm not saying that public opinion doesn't matter. I'm just saying it's... I think that there's a little bit of a phenomenon in which a few

very, very loud voices are sort of hogging the mic on this issue. And I think that they are claiming to speak for the broad swath of women in this country and I just think that it's not accurate. And when the Atlantic

fires somebody like that, they're giving fuel, they're putting fuel on the fire. I feel like, and then I'll shut up, I know this is very corny. Not likely. That for a long time, as a culture, we kind of internalized in a certain way the lessons of the First Amendment and the lessons of due process in our own lives. So we would think about, we would actually have a presumption of, well, you know, you could say whatever you want, you know, but kind of that's the country we live in. And we would feel that we had to be, not jump to conclusion about whether somebody was innocent

or guilty or not. We kind of like innocent or proven guilty, even though we don't fully adopt that standard, it kind of informed us. And I think we have a bottom up change in the culture now where we're beginning to actually rail against the lessons and rejecting the lessons of the First Amendment. So if we don't think that people should be able

to say what they want on Facebook or Twitter and all that stuff, if we think that the guy who owns Facebook should censor it and the guy who owns Twitter should censor it, then tell me again why we don't think the government should censor it. Like, we've lost... We're unmoored to any principle anymore. I thought sunlight was the best disinfectant.

That was... And that would apply in everyday life. No. We don't really think sunlight is the best. We don't think people should be judged by the content of their character anymore. We think it's okay to look outside of the world and say, well, we're going to take immigrants and we shall not consider what color they are or what country they're from or anything because that would

be racist. But as soon as they get here, we don't want more than 20% of Asians at Harvard. As soon as they get there, that's the most important. It doesn't make any sense. So that's, I'm done. I would like to, just to jump back quick. And this is all to me related to the Louis CK thing going on. It's like intersectionality.

I see an intersectionality between all of these issues. And you can predict how somebody feels on one of them simply by asking them how they feel about another one of them. I think the real question, though, to ask the people saying it's too much too soon is A, to say, okay, what are the new sentencing guidelines? How long

should it be? Don't let people duck that question. And then the other thing is, look, i'm someone that i believe in criminal justice reform i believe that zero tolerance is almost always a bad policy and so do you people claiming you know people taking a super hard line on this so explain to me how you square those two things i think those are the main questions for that side and they'll call you a c word. They will not explain it to you.

And that's the dilemma I'm in. No, I'm welcome to my life. Isn't it so frustrating because you want to say, listen, let's talk about this. I've really thought this through. Maybe I'm missing something. No, you're a monster. You're part of the problem. Well, I want to ask Barry, do you ever feel that because, well, I don't know exactly 100%

your feelings on this situation, but I feel as a woman, right? Other women, you were saying earlier, they kind of expect you to be in this, you have to feel like me or else you're an asshole. You're an internalized, you have internalized misogyny. Yes. Yes. And I feel that's unfair. And I feel like, for example, this whole situation with Louis C.K., I think that there are a lot of women who say, well, I mean, I don't know. I've been in situations like that

before. I had a comic take his dick out in front of me. I'll be flat out honest with you. You buried the fucking link. Listen, that comic strip Christmas party probably 15 years ago, maybe 17 years ago. Were you alone? No, we were smoking pot, a bunch of people downstairs

and a bunch of people went upstairs and it was just me and him hanging out. And then, whoop, it was out. And he literally goes, come on, Mosey. And I was like, you're an asshole. What are you doing? And I just left. There was no, like, I didn't feel uncomfortable when I saw him. But that's me.

That's me. And I'm allowed to feel how I feel. And you're right, Noam. I should not assume what happened in the hotel room with Louie or whatever. But I don't like the idea that I can't have an opinion saying, you know, to me it's not that big of a fucking deal. Has this really affected your life forever? Come on. So I would ask the people out there who hate me.

Veronica just told a story. This is 15 years ago. If you give me the name of who did that, am I required to fire them now and stop using them? I wouldn't want to see that happen. No, I'm saying would they think that this is my obligation now, or is it just for public consumption? Well, I might get emails and texts from people saying you were assaulted, and you should really nail this guy. You don't feel that you were. I you should you should really like nail this guy

like just forget I don't feel I was so the whole thing is is it just perception but you could do it to the next one and then what you say is believe women if that's the slogan of this movement in part you are as a woman are telling us the truth of your experience as you experienced it if if they really believe in believing women, they have to believe you. And your experience of it is that it wasn't assault. But obviously, like, social and cultural mores change and consciousnesses get raised.

And I think we're living through an era, in a good way in many ways, of consciousness raising. Like, one good thing that is coming out of this among many is that the standards of what sort of sexual appropriateness is are being dramatically raised. That is a very good thing. Like I'm glad that a lot of younger female comics are not going to have to deal, hopefully,

with men whipping their dicks out and are never going to have to decide, like, do I want to make a deal of this or not? Like that's good. That wouldn't have happened without me too. Unless they can get a sitcom out of to have to decide, like, do I want to make a deal of this or not? Like, that's good. That wouldn't have happened without me, too. Unless they can get a sitcom out of it. Unless they can get a sitcom out of it. I think you hit one of the nails on the head, which is I think that part of the resistance to Louis,

me putting Louis on, is that they feel that what you're talking about hinges on that. And it might go up in smoke. All the progress and the change in the cultural mores are going to change. Like, well, now Louis is going back on. Now it's permission. So I guess we were there and then we fell back. And I understand that, but I still have to treat Louis fairly. You know what I mean?

Like, I can't. Right. There's sort of like systemic justice and then individual justice. And like, how do they come together and conflict? Wasn't it you who wrote about, uh, where some, uh, some people were saying, well, I'm happy that these white men, I don't care if they're innocent. I'm happy these white men. Yeah. The argument was for a while and now people have sort of stopped expressing things so bluntly. But if, if, if what it takes to bring down the patriarchy is that a few innocent men go down

with the ship, I'm okay with that. That's horrible. That to me is like terrifying logic. Absolutely un-American against individual liberty. I mean, it's, it's horrifying. The opposite of the constitution. The opposite that we said, let it, let a hundred guilty men go free, not to let one innocent man go. That's a war mentality. I mean, you know, I mean, a lot of innocent people went down in Hiroshima too, and we seem to feel that that was okay. But again, it's like, I'm against the death penalty. That's a war mindset, not a republic mindset.

No, it's the logic that allowed people to cheer when OJ got off. This was kind of the same argument. Who cares if people get killed? It's also the same logic that might have led the jury to conclude that the Central Park Five were guilty. Well, a million other black guys have done it, so I guess these black guys too. Yeah.

And this is a terrible logic. Well, this is where identity politics comes into this, right? Because if the innocent people that are going down happen to be, in this case, let's say, powerful white men who are in positions of power, well, that's okay that they're collateral damage because they've benefited from privilege and from systems, you know, being biased toward them from forever. And, you know, this is sort of the comeuppance of the subaltern or the oppressed. And the thing is, they're not

wrong that those people have benefited from all these things. I'm just deeply uncomfortable with the idea that anyone who is innocent should be smeared as guilty and that that's okay. And I find it really, really chilling. It's chilling and it's crazy. If you go back to first principles, and one first principle being

everybody should be judged as an individual then so much of what we're dealing with now falls apart including racial issues with it you know this idea of collective guilt if you're born white just a mouse and all somehow responsible i don't know why asians are somehow responsible for what white people have done but you know and i have a lot of conversations and when i make the point to listen everybody's born innocent and everybody's an individual.

Nobody is more responsible for something because they look like that person. They kind of stop for a second like, you know, I hadn't thought of that before. You'd think they would know that. I also find it telling that, like, the same week that Louis C.K. did 15 minutes on stage here, we're finding out some of the most horrifying details about rape and molestation and horrific abuse within the Catholic Church. And the Pope may be covering for it. And the Pope may be knowing about it.

Like, maybe that's a bigger story and the thing that we should be talking about. No, I wouldn't just ask. And they're kind of the left is kind of rallying around the Pope in a subtle way. Because the Pope is, because they love the Pope, and the guy that wrote the letter is a more conservative sort of anti-gay. I mean, the whole thing is totally fascinating.

This is how, you know, how people are and how phony they are. Or maybe phony is uncharitable, but how little, how unrigorous they are. Unprincipled. Yeah, yeah. It's just like a lack of integrity. Yeah, yeah. Now, I guess this is kind of the last question what do I do about the case of the eggshell plaintiff

I get some of the letters I've gotten, like listen, I was a victim of rape, and I feel XYZ about the Louis thing and that's a very tough person to speak to and part of me wants to say that the world can't

bend to this. That's a terrible thing in your life. Or do you think the world has to bend and assume that the worst-case person could be in the audience at any time? Isn't that what we were talking about, warning the audience up front? No, but I'm saying something. I had a conversation, and I didn't know what to say, because especially in this day and age,

you know that if you give somebody a hook, they're going to accuse you of being insensitive and not caring and they're going to get indignant. And I didn't want to appear insensitive. But do I have to worry about the fact that a person is a victim of whatever it is? Like, it's not just

if somebody, Lynn Coppola has a rape joke, a whole rape routine. If somebody comes to you and says, that offended, I was raped. What do I say? Do I have to tell Lynn not to do it? No, but that's what I was trying to make my point earlier, saying. Sean, can Brittany come on? Saying whether or not it's Louis C.K., any comedy club is a ground for free speech.

It's grounds for people saying whatever they want to say. And you cannot bend to that. That would really upset me. I'm sorry. What if Bill Cosby wants to come in? Do I put him on? Well, he can't. No.

He's not allowed. He's a criminal. Yeah, he's a convicted criminal. What if he gets out? He won't. No, no, no. That's not the point. All right.

If he were to get out? What if he gets out? I think't. No, no, no. That's not the point. If he were to get out... What if he gets out? I think you would know it would be bad for the club. I mean, he would not have the same reception that Louis C.K. would have because it's a completely different story. I think no. I think there are lines. What's the principled reason? Because he drugged and raped women.

Yeah. Honestly, like, would you have Harvey... I don't think Harvey Weinstein should ever be able... Like, if we're talking about sort of sentencing guidelines, people that have committed heinous crimes, I'm not shedding a tear if they're never rehabilitated. I don't think Harvey Weinstein should ever be able to direct or produce movies again if he's guilty of what we think he's guilty of, which is violently raping people. So what if Bill Cosby were not rich in fame?

Rich. Same story, but he's not rich and he gets out. Should nobody ever hire him? Should he become a ward of the state? What's the limiting principle there? I think his lack of moral integrity would just speak for itself and people wouldn't be interested in his opinions. No, you're missing my point.

No, my point is I'm fine with Bill Cosby if he gets out, theoretically, or Harvey Weinstein. He can get a job at Walmart or McDonald's. What if Walmart knows? He doesn't need to be a celebrity at, you know, and be... Fair enough, but I say what if Walmart knows what he did? Should, is it all, because I think they'd come after Walmart too.

I think technically... Well, no, hold on. No, you go ahead. I don't have'd come after Walmart, too. I think technically... Well, no, hold on. No, you go ahead. I don't have to answer. I think technically we're saying, should he be allowed to work here? Bill Cosby, work at the Comedy Cellar. You're saying if he got out... That was the question.

The answer was he shouldn't work here. And I'm saying, okay, if he shouldn't work here, where else should he not be able to work? Assuming he doesn't have money, he money because that a president has to make a living if i if if if i find out in guy who did with the cause the data that a president is a bartender what i go to the owner the barn say how could you have this guy working here united you might

and then the end is i guess he goes on welfare right like or or he has to lie about what is that i'm sorry i think there's a difference between a career like comedy or like a career where it's really, like there's personal glory here versus a job that allows you to earn a living and not be on the street.

I agree with you, just for the record, but I do think that people would come after Walmart too. I just don't want to take up too much of your time. Brittany. I think they would say

it's not okay for Walmart too. And I also think that there is something too much. Brittany... I think they would say it's not okay for Walmart too. And I also think that there is something to be said. Of course, it would be terrible for business so I would find a way not to do it. But there is something to be said that when you, you know, if people want to buy tickets to you and... No, no, no. People want to buy tickets

for all kinds of things. People would buy tickets to see someone having sex with a dog. It doesn't mean we should sell tickets to that. Okay, so what if Mike Tyson wants to go on stage after he gets out of prison for raping somebody? If he's...

Nobody cared. Why? So, so I... Why did nobody care? I don't know why nobody cared. Yeah, that's the problem, too, is it's like double standards. So you're going to tell me,

yeah, but Mike Tyson only did this, but Bill Cosby... Yeah, we kind of pick and choose. Part of the only did this, but Bill Cosby did this. We've had the Cosby scenario and nobody cared. And he's still touring. Part of the reason is a lot of people don't think he did anything. Yeah, that's true. We have with us Brittany the waitress. Hi, Brittany.

Brittany is a waitress that works here. A waitress in good standing. And she's been here for some years. I guess two years or so. Has it been that long? I tell you, the time really does fly and people don't seem to leave. The funny thing about the comedy is that waitresses are either gone in a week or they're here for the rest of their lives. So I guess you'll be here for a good while.

We did want to have one of the female waitstaff on. I think Noam wanted to discuss this notion of a hostile work environment. Now, Louis was here the other night, Louis C.K. Did you happen to be here that evening? I wasn't there that night, but I've been here other nights, Louis was here the other night, Louis C.K. Did you happen to be here that evening? I wasn't there that night, but I've been here other nights where he was here.

Recently? He came and ate dinner here a few times. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, he did? I didn't know that. Okay. Yes. He had had, I don't know whether he had the steak or the salad, but that's a little relevance to our conversation. But how do you feel about, if, for example, you were working downstairs as a waitressing downstairs in the showroom,

and Louis was, do you have any thoughts about Louis working here after all that's transpired? Like, personally, for me, I don't feel uncomfortable. You know what I mean? I've been here, like, plenty of times when he was here. I think that there's a fine line of like I've read a lot of stuff on Twitter lately about the Comedy Cellar and whatever and my personal opinion is

like, what are we supposed to do? The owner wasn't here and Noam wasn't here that night, Sunday night at 11 o'clock and it's like how are we to blame kind of thing? You know, I don't feel uncomfortable around... Would you have put him on?

I think I would have, because it's like, at the same time, everyone wants to say, like, what he did is wrong, and you're like, yeah, what he did was wrong. I've read all the articles. I was on Twitter last night, because it's just like, so much stuff. Like, someone on Twitter was like, hey, if you want to call the comedy seller, here's their number. That's harassment towards the comedy seller now.

You know what I mean? So it's like, as the other side of it and working here and seeing the behind the scenes of the Louis thing and all the comics that work here, I think it's unfair to put us in a bad spotlight and to say stuff about the comedy seller this, the comedy seller that, you know, boycott the comedy seller. I don't think that's fair. I think that if it's an issue, it's an issue. But at the same time, if he walks in, it's just a split decision. It's not like it's up for discussion.

If anyone walks in here, Dave Chappelle, Chris Rock, I mean, Kevin Hart, it's just like they go on. And that's been my experience. It's up for discussion, but it's just like they go on. And that's been my experience. It's up for discussion, but it's also like split of the moment. But Louis, of course, is obviously in a different category. But given the controversy around him, now you speak to the other waitstaff. Without mentioning names, is anybody uneasy about Louis being here?

Honestly, from what I've heard from the whole wait staff, because we all obviously talk to each other while we're doing our side work, everyone was excited to see him come back, and just to see that he's, you know, trying to come back and do his thing. And it's like, it takes, it's like, to me, yeah, like, what he did

is wrong, okay, but it's also like, why punish him you know forever i don't know if it should ruin his career um there's been other stories of comics like you guys have just mentioned about bill cosby what bill cosby did is a hundred percent different than the whole louis story you know so do you think that louis should have addressed it no not here no i do not think he should have addressed it at the Comedy Cellar. I think it would have been a bigger problem if he came up on stage and said stuff about it.

I think what he did at the time was he just told his jokes. I read something else on the internet, how he said a joke that I didn't hear from any of the other servers who were down there that night that he said. So I think that was kind of like misunderstood or a lie. I've heard Louis C.K. do jokes a hundred times. You know, like some of these comedians, I know they're set. I'm here so often that I know they're set.

And like, I don't think he should have said anything about it because he's just trying to feel things out. Isn't it interesting, like for me, like here I have a bunch of by the way, anytime I say to anybody, well I speak to the female comics or I speak to my waitress, they say, oh well they would never tell you anyway. And that kills me because it's just not true.

No female comic I think would hold their tongue, tell me what they thought about Louis working here or not. But isn't it interesting that you guys are all like between, what, 21 and 31 for the most part, and you're all young women, woke and liberal, and yet if I say, listen, I speak to my waitresses and they think it's okay for Louis to come on, they wouldn't process it. They assume that every young woman would be telling me this is terrible.

There's an old saying that any publicity is good publicity. I think it's fair to say that the comedy seller has never had a media blast. Anything close. The one time that was sort of close was when that one night when I think Amy Schumer and Aziz and Chris Rock all came here. They call that the billion-dollar night of comedy, whatever they called it in the media. That was a fairly robust media blast.

That was favorable press. Yes, it was. But in terms of the number of the millions of people that are talking about this, I think this far exceeds that, I would guess. And Noam is now a famous guy, apparently. I mean, you know. 15 minutes of him for me.

He's got his 15 minutes anyway but the phrase is any publicity is good publicity I don't think that's absolutely true but is it true in this case do you believe the comedy seller will benefit will be harmed or there will be no effect either way

I don't know the answer but I'll tell you this that the possible upside is not worth the downside risk in my mind. If I could have it not have happened, business is fine and good, and I don't need this risk. I think at the end of the day,

we said this at the table earlier, and I'll say it, but the thing is, I said this when the whole thing went down with Louis initially, is that the world doesn't, maybe people want to see Louis C.K. The comedy scene, it's going to go people want to see Louis C.K. The comedy scene, it's going to go on with or without Louis C.K.

And that's the unfortunate thing for him and what happened with this situation. Barry was going to belittle what I just said. I just feel like you're I just feel like you're squishing out on us in like the final hour of this, which is you are. You are. This whole

time you've been saying, even if you weren't asleep and it wasn't Sunday night at 11, you would have put him on. I would have put him on. After some counseling, though. After some counseling. No, but I said, no matter what he said, I would have put on. No, I'm not squishing out. I'm saying this

level of publicity could have been about anything. It could have been about something that I didn't even have any control over. I'm just saying. I am certain that this is only going to help the comedy seller. And the fact is, when I was here the other night, just come see a show, Aziz Ansari had been on in the set before. And when people came out, that's all anyone was talking about. Yeah, well, nobody cared about Aziz.

Yeah, they did. Nah, not as much. I think there were a lot of women who had the inside-outside voice you were talking about before. Yes. Where the inside were like, it's not that big of a deal. I did not get a single complaint about Aziz until Louis went up. What I'm saying is that was like the buzz on the street was like, oh my God, maybe we're going to see him. People are going to come just because they think they might see Louis C.K.

I don't think there's a question about that. I also worry that just as a person, I don't like the... Listen, you know what? I don't know. You can't please everybody. I don't want to be seen as a guy who doesn't care about these issues or whatever it is. And I don't know. I would rather not have to deal with this. But I stand on principle. And I would do it again putting him on. I'm not trying to squish with this, but I stand on principle,

and I would do it again putting him on. I'm not trying to squish out, which is not about... So if he comes tonight and wants to go on... No. No? No, yeah, I would let him. You would. By now, I think everybody knows that he might show up,

so it wouldn't be quite the ambush that it was the other night. I think that, right? I mean, by now, it's pretty much common knowledge that Louis might show up. So they're forewarned, I think, in a sense. Let me pose a question to you. If Louis came in, I would say, look, Louis, this has been really hard for...

I would tell him the truth. I mean, we speak man-to-man. Did you talk today? No. You haven't spoken since this happened? We don't speak. They're not tight. We're not tight.

But anyway, you know... We sometimes exchange a very short email. We're not tight. I would say, listen, this has been really hard for us so if you're going to go on again what can we do let's try to be smart about this at least to mitigate it as much as possible

that's what I would say to him and he's a smart guy and to push him to do a more thoughtful set I just still can't get over that what he needs to do is hire some female writers and come up with an amazing, amazing set about maybe doing just five minutes at least,

just on this situation, come up with a great set about it. Well, I don't know if Louis is open to having people write for him. No, he's not. We are at a time. I just had one quick... We're in double overtime. Go ahead. That's okay. I don't know if she has...

What do you think Louis' reaction to all this is? Louie now knows, I think the cat's out of the bag, that you personally feel he missed an opportunity by not discussing the issue on stage. He also knows, I think the cat's out of the bag, that you've been made uncomfortable by this whole thing. How do you think that will affect Louie's decision to come back here, if you think it will affect him? I don't know, but this is what I think. I've you think that will affect Louis' decision to come back here? If you think it will affect it.

I don't know, but this is what I think. I've thought about that. Louis is a very, very thick-skinned guy. And I think he will say to himself that he understands I was thrown into a position and that I said I had the right to say what I

thought was honest. And in the end, the most important thing, I would would hope from his point of view is that he stood on principle in my behalf, and he continues to, that I disagree with him about the way he did it. I mean, what do I have to do? Just say whatever Louis wants to hear? I don't think he expects that from me. No, no, I'm not saying say whatever he wants to hear.

I'm saying do you think it will affect his decision to come back here in the coming weeks and do another set? I don't think it will. I don't think he's going to come back in the coming weeks. I think he's going to win in another few months, but I don't think he's going to hold anything against me. I don't know. Do you think he was shocked and taken aback by the reaction? I mean, the whole set has reminded me once again that the person that I once thought was extremely self-aware

is tone deaf and not at all self-aware. So it's quite possible that he was surprised by it because I need to stop being surprised by Louis C.K.'s tone deafness. That is a very clunky way of saying the thing that I think you guys understand. It's exactly right. That is the common opinion. Now, the story I hear is that it was truly

spur of the moment. What does that mean? That he was egged on. By who? I don't want to say by who, but I heard that he might have been egged on. By friends? Yeah, I'll tell you what we've been. The point is that this is no excuse, but that may be, I don't know, just one of those things.

The stars aligned and he went on. Oh, my God. We're going to end it. Do you know that on the day Louis first got in trouble, I saw this whole issue coming. Most of the arguments that he'll tell you, most of the arguments that we're expressing now, I was going on and on about almost a year ago because I knew that this was going to all, all roads lead it to this day

when the comedy seller was going to be held accountable and I would have to decide whether to put Louis C.K. on or not. And it's all come true. But anyway, hopefully we'll survive it. I hope we don't have to edit out any of this, at least for the podcast version. No, I'm just going to

beep out the name of the person who doesn't want to be on. That's it. To Barry's everlasting disapproval. You better not cut the part where I said, oh, it's Michelle Wolfe who made fun of me. I think that's a great moment. I want that to be on here. Unfortunately, Noam's top priority is not the podcast.

You better keep that on. Noam's top priority here is to keep the stars happy. The podcast is a, I don't even know if it's second. I mean, it may be a distant fifth. No, it's not because she's a star. I'm not going to force anybody. Wait, listen. No comment or I don't want to answer a question is interpreted as having

meaning. If I put a microphone on somebody's face, what do you think about this? Right, and what's crazy is that in our culture, I won't do this, but in our culture right now, it would be completely kosher for me to get on Twitter and be like, I'm at a podcast, I'm a comedy seller talking about Louis C.K.,

and we asked X very known comedian, very known for her feminist views, what she thought about it, and she had nothing to say. And then it could cause a whole... I'm never doing that. I'm just saying that's the world we live in, and it's extremely fucked up.

And someone would call her a feckless you-know-what, and it'd be over. And also, just to be fair to her, she has plenty to say about it. As a matter of fact... She's not obligated to say it here. No, now that we're finished, if you be fair to her, she has plenty to say about it. As a matter of fact, she's not obligated to say it here. Now that we're finished, if you want, you probably want to talk. She'd be happy to talk to you. I just don't think she's not obligated to say it here, however.

I'm not making an issue. I'm just saying she'll say it in her own. Some of us get scrutinized constantly for everything. She should. Do you know, Barry? Do you remember that during the Olympics, somebody was Asian Asian, I don't want to get the country wrong, what country was she from? Japan.

Japan. No, she's from here. Children of immigrants. Yes. And she said she won a gold medal. She said, immigrant, what did you say? I tweeted a line from Hamilton. We're not putting this on.

I cannot get into this. I'll tell you right after. Thank you very much. Special thanks to Barry Weiss. We've been wanting to meet for a long time. So great to meet all of you I've underestimated How great she is Bye

Bye