The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Being Held Captive in Nigeria and the Gaza War with Rudy Rochman

Episode Date: March 22, 2024

Rochman's work primarily focuses on shifting the global, ideological, and political conversations regarding the Jewish People & Israel, uniting sectors of Israeli society, locating & bringing awarenes...s to the disconnected Tribes of Israel worldwide, and generating innovative ways to combat antisemitism.

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Starting point is 00:00:00 This is live from the table the official podcast of the world-famous comedy cellar, coming at you on SiriusXM 99 Raw Comedy, formerly Raw Dog, and also available as a podcast, and you can see us on YouTube if you want to see our pretty faces, some of us prettier, perhaps, than others. In any case, this is Dan Natterman. I'm with Noam Dorman, owner of the world-famous comedy cellar, and we are with Perry L. Ashenbrand, our producer, and Max Marcus. Is that your last name?
Starting point is 00:00:49 Yeah. Yeah, he's here with us. He's the sound guy. He doesn't say anything, but he's working his magic. By the way, Noam, I noticed around the corner, just to review for those who don't know, Noam purchased a building on the corner of uh sixth avenue and west third street that he's going to turn into another comedy seller venue and i noticed advertising uh in the windows of the uh of the building
Starting point is 00:01:14 yes i'm just that's just interesting because i think it was something with kylie jenner or something i i haven't seen it. Well, you park right next door. I didn't walk that way. Okay. I heard about it yesterday, though. Yeah, they're paying us money to advertise in the window. Okay, I didn't. That's interesting.
Starting point is 00:01:33 That's something I never thought of. But why not? You have a building, and you're not using it for anything else right now. Why not? I mean, they pressured us pretty hard to do it. It's a lot of money. Really? I mean, yeah, us pretty hard to do it. It's a lot of money. Really?
Starting point is 00:01:47 I mean, yeah, it's real money. I mean, it's not as much as you could get renting the store. But considering it's not usable space right now, that's pretty good. Yeah, it's pretty good. That's pretty good income. I mean, if we had been doing it since we, if we'd been smart enough to do it since we took the building, it would have paid the real estate taxes for the building. I think it would be enough to carry the cost of the building, just lying.
Starting point is 00:02:17 But you never thought of it, I assume. No, and then we did think about it. I was slow doing it. Something about it rubbed me the wrong way, i think i was just being why not and you know uh kylie jenner uh certainly a worthwhile product i guess i don't know what's her cosmetic line or something i mean if they had any sense of uh fun they would have put like a pro hamas ad or something just to see what the jew would do but they didn't they didn't run the ad by you they just said we're paying you and we have clients they didn't run the ad by you? They just said, we're paying you and we have clients? They didn't tell you it was going to be Kylie Jenner? Maybe they ran it by Liz.
Starting point is 00:02:48 I don't know. For the right price, I don't care. I'll get Mr. Allen. We're still looking at a 2025 opening date? Yes. So today is the anniversary of the shutdown in New York. Is that correct? That's what Max said.
Starting point is 00:03:08 So it sounds about right. Four years. Hard to believe. Jesus Christ. What does it make you think of? I'll tell you what it makes me think of. It makes me think of that life is over in a flash. Not the four years of COVID.
Starting point is 00:03:18 It's that four years can pass that quickly. How many more four-year periods do we have? Well, now to somebody young, those four years were an eternity. Obviously, but not to us. You know what? I don't think they were an eternity, and this is why. I have a theory that even for the young, the monotony of four of whatever it was,
Starting point is 00:03:40 two years, year and a half being shut down with no discernible mental markers, mile markers. It could be. We'd have to ask somebody. We'd have to ask your son, perhaps. It probably collapses on itself. That probably does have an effect, but we'd have to ask one of your kids.
Starting point is 00:03:57 I mean, we did nothing. Nothing for more than a year. Okay, but then the other three years, you did some, the shit got... Two and a half years, yeah. Yeah, and we actually closed before New York shut us down.
Starting point is 00:04:13 Right, yeah. A few days, maybe, I don't remember exactly. I could look it up. But a week before or something like that, I saw the writing on the wall and people were panicking. It just didn't seem to make sense. They were very late closing New York down.
Starting point is 00:04:28 You got yelled at, right? You posted something on Facebook about the kids not going to school and the local parents were saying that you were being hysterical. Remember that? Yeah, they threw me out of the artsy group because I said they should shut the schools down already because they said you're going to shut them down anyway this was their theory was we'll wait until someone gets covid i don't like if you're gonna wait somebody gets covid you know
Starting point is 00:04:52 someone's gonna get covid why are you gonna wait until somebody gets covid has symptoms has passed it along to a number of people and then shut down it was dumb as dumb could be which is not without regard to whether the lockdowns and schools closing with all that was right right right but it was clear that somebody was gonna get covid so the notion of waiting till somebody get got covid and look you know looking back on it we shut business down a week in advance and it's not crazy to think we saved some lives by doing that at that time covid was everywhere and people were getting it and a certain number of people died of COVID.
Starting point is 00:05:28 Either somebody would be at the club or take it home. Think of all the people you killed by not closing a few days even before that. Yeah, that's right. If you want to look at it that way. What are you, Hamas? By the way, I met roughly the 30 year mark in stand up comedy a little bit more. And you talk about time going fast. I've decided enough is enough with my current style of comedy.
Starting point is 00:06:06 And I am going to branch out into what I think is actually easier which is just talk more real I told you to do that five years ago and you poo-pooed me I didn't poo-poo you I never said it was a bad idea I said that it's impractical when I
Starting point is 00:06:21 I'm sorry to even detour you this is fascinating I should have said that. Go ahead. But I did tell... Yeah, you did. And I never said it was a bad idea. I don't think I ever said it was a bad idea. This is monumental. What I said is it's impractical. What I have to do, and it's still impractical.
Starting point is 00:06:35 Forget about that. Tell us about your change. I'm saying my act is currently constituted. I still need to use it to make money if I do a, you know uh have to do 45 minutes you know at a at a at a gig but in terms of writing jokes going forward i'm going to try to integrate as best i can without trying you know without too much without it seeming too weird why would it seem too weird well because when you're doing a certain style then to do
Starting point is 00:07:04 another style in the same act. You've been saying this to me for years. Yeah, and it's valid. I'll see what comes of it. It's going to be amazing. You know, I mean, just like if a tell said anything else come. Yes, anyway, I was dating this girl. Styles, I mean,
Starting point is 00:07:20 you can't, like... What young people and young people drive the Mario. Young people want to hear these days is people talk about Israel, pro-Israel. Well, some young people want to hear that. Modi's demographic wants to hear that. But look, first of all, the people are getting big now are the people that are being that are either talking about political shit or about themselves. But more than that, it's time to it's time to grow and do something different and i think quite frankly easier uh than the stuff that i've been writing over the past it's gonna be amazing i mean i don't know why you don't think you're gonna be able to do that
Starting point is 00:07:55 at like for 45 minutes because because i don't have 45 minutes of that kind of material yet yeah but so i still need to do my old act when I have to make money, be it on a cruise ship, which I just did. I vowed I'd never do again, but I did. Oh, can we talk about that? If you'd like, if you have questions. Yeah, I did. Well, we should say that maybe for a separate episode. But if you, I sent her a picture of the hotel room that the Princess Cruise Line put me up in in Jamaica.
Starting point is 00:08:23 And he said and i i just wanted an opinion of the hotel room because i thought maybe i'm crazy yeah that it was shocking that a big company like princess cruise line would put somebody up at a hotel like that well i i can't argue with your wisdom of bad mouthing the cruise line that just hires you this is really well i don't know this is really has nothing to do with the reason you feel you have to change your your no i i mean uh it did you see the picture no no no it's can we see it i'll send it to max and he can send it to mess it so what what's bad usually it's tough to get it is it who took the
Starting point is 00:09:04 picture dan aderman oh who took the picture? Dan Aderman. Oh, you took the picture, yeah. Oh, you already did the gig? I did the gig. You did the gig. What was it that you, before our guest gets here, that Dan didn't want to talk about in front of me
Starting point is 00:09:16 because you wanted to keep it fresh for the show? Oh, I went on that tour guide tour. We were having a tour guide that does tours of the village. And so I went on his tour. I didn't want to discuss it because we're going to be discussing it. I will say that despite the fact that Noam really is not a snob,
Starting point is 00:09:32 if he says anything other than the fact that this place was absolutely... Don't influence him. Well, I don't think I could if I tried. Have I ever influenced you? Only in a contrary, reverse psychology way.
Starting point is 00:09:50 Have you been to Jamaica? I have not been to Jamaica, no. Have you been to Jamaica? Like five times. Now, why do you choose Jamaica as your destination? It's cheaper. No, that's not fucking why I picked Jamaica. And by the way, no, it's not cheaper
Starting point is 00:10:05 Unless you stay in that place What's wrong with that? No, I'm Is that the whole room? That's the front door when you walk in That's the bed No, that's not the bed Okay, that's the front door
Starting point is 00:10:16 That's the front door I can't make any judgment on the front door What do you mean? Look at the broken What are you talking about? The slats of whatever that is. It's disgusting. Did you call the front desk?
Starting point is 00:10:28 Okay, what's next? We don't have a front desk. That was the only picture. That's the only picture. No, I sent you other pictures. Hold on. Oh, my God. We are just...
Starting point is 00:10:38 That was the only one I saw. Our tech game is... No, that's... I sent you... Oh, here it is. Oh, for God's sakes. If you just email it to me, I'll get to it. No, no. Text it to me and I'll
Starting point is 00:10:47 text it to him and then he can email it to himself. This is the only other one that I have. You got to put it up on the screen. I'm going to email you, Max. While we're doing this, can we talk about... All week long, and I can't remember names, I think that I'm losing my mind.
Starting point is 00:11:04 I don't know if it's senility, but just definitely cognitive decline. And then every Wednesday I come here and I feel better about myself. I'm not even kidding. Okay, go. I just emailed you. I may be losing my ability to remember names, but my executive function
Starting point is 00:11:21 is still intact. Have you taken the test? I'm too scared to take it scared they give you like three words you're fine man woman TV they give you like three words and then like ten minutes lady they ask you what the words I don't think I could do it oh stop it remember the word three three I can't remember a name two minutes later you remember very well the things that you want to remember I said to you you know know, pen, giraffe, saxophone, and I went in 10 minutes, I would ask you. But, you know, do you remember the three words?
Starting point is 00:11:50 Pen, giraffe, saxophone. Okay, you're fine. Does that make me fine? I think so. I sent you two emails. It wasn't 10 minutes, but that's roughly, I think, what the test would be, you know, a few minutes or whatever. Yeah, but the thing is that those words have evoked images of a giraffe playing the saxophone.
Starting point is 00:12:08 And that goes to you, Penn? Penn is easy, right? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. But no, I can't. Wearing a Go Quakers sweatshirt? I can't remember the most simple things. I do think it is partly distraction of the mind because I don't have the mental state that I used to have.
Starting point is 00:12:35 I can remember just being more able to just – pen, draft, saxophone. I can be more able to just take things in and not be distracted. Okay, so this is the other picture. There's me looking. And that's the bedroom in the back there. Yeah, yeah. So let me, so. And that's the hallway. Oh, so there's a hallway and there's a little foyer
Starting point is 00:12:57 with a bench that has ice slat broken. And then go back. And then if you look from the doorway into the room. I mean, look at the curtain rod, rod for example the curtain rod is bowed it's bowed and what about that? there's condom wrappers
Starting point is 00:13:15 what is that? oh that's gum and I mean that's the whole room yeah I mean there's a bathroom but I guess I didn't send the picture to Perrielle And, I mean, that's the whole room. Yeah, I mean, well, obviously not the whole room. There's a bathroom. There's a bathroom, but I guess I didn't send the picture to Perrielle. But anyway, you get the sense of it.
Starting point is 00:13:31 I mean, if you're not, if that, you know, I mean, that's enough for you to make a judgment. Now, did you find that you slept worse there than you would have in a... No, I slept okay. I slept okay. Was the bed comfortable? The bed was comfortable. Now, were the sheets clean or were they rough? I think so.
Starting point is 00:13:49 No, the sheets clean or they were rough i think so no the sheets are not i'm just saying well i don't understand how we're even having this conversation this it's abysmal to put somebody up in it's a complete fucking dump like what are you even talking about okay two things first of all if they had offered to pay you more pay you less but give you a nicer room, would you have taken it? Probably not, but that's not the point we're making. Well, but in the end... No, but they didn't offer to pay him more. They put him up. This place is a shithole. See, this is why I feel good about myself.
Starting point is 00:14:14 In the end, from the point of view of the person commissioning Dan, there was a cost to having Dan there. They pay for transportation? Yeah. So it's the cost of the transportation, paying Dan his fee, and the cost of the room and board, the lodging.
Starting point is 00:14:32 Okay. So if they find a cheaper lodging, they can pay him more. Well, I don't know. No, I don't think that's the calculation. The calculation is they can find a cheaper lodging they can make. And for every comedian, every entertainer, and every ship over the course of a year,
Starting point is 00:14:48 it's probably a million dollars that they, you know, you put it all together. No, I hardly think. Anyway. You would never. When you take every, if you're taking every entertainer on every ship the whole year, it adds up. Right. So you would never put somebody up in a room
Starting point is 00:15:05 like this. Now what I was going to say before Dan said don't info, no you wouldn't, is that I know that Noam's really not a snob and he's not precious about things like this. So he's probably not the best person to ask as evidenced by the fact that he thinks this is reasonable.
Starting point is 00:15:21 It's one of the only times anybody's ever told me I was not a snob but managed to turn it into an insult but that that was ingenious for he he's not a snob so you know he doesn't really know i'm just what's nice we could argue about whether i you know that i was willing to do it or i i mean but that that aside it's just big companies tend not to put people up in these sorts of places. It's disgusting. It's just, you know. Now, I saw on Twitter. Now, the next time, unless they hear this podcast and decide not to hire me again, I could try to negotiate for something nicer and probably will be unsuccessful.
Starting point is 00:15:58 How much time did you spend in that room? One night. I got in at like 5 p.m. and I left the next morning at about 8 a.m. Oh, damn. No! Yeah. What 5 p.m. and I left the next morning at about 8 a.m. Oh, damn. No! Yeah. What? It's gross.
Starting point is 00:16:09 What are you? Is there room service? I don't, I didn't, I don't know. It was an all-inclusive, so I did get a meal out of them. How was the meal? It was fine. There are beautiful hotels.
Starting point is 00:16:19 They're not putting them up in a beautiful hotel. Okay, but there are beautiful hotels in Montego Bay that are extremely expensive and then there are other hotels. Are there like Hampton Inn level hotels? There are,
Starting point is 00:16:29 yes, there are. That are American brand? Yeah. From their point of view, this is way nicer than the room you would have had if you were on the ship because the entertainer's
Starting point is 00:16:36 like in steerage. Which is awful. No, no, I've had, I got a crew cabin but it was fine. But I've also had passenger cabins. So, I want to say,
Starting point is 00:16:46 there was a thing on, and Max, you can Google this. So Dan and I, I've had a dumb party question that I've asked people, asked Dan, like, how many IQ points would you trade for how many inches of penis size? And actually, no one's
Starting point is 00:17:02 ever thought it was a fun question, but but... No, because penis size to me is not that important. So the answer would be I wouldn't trade any IQ points for penis. That's you, but it could be the other way. You could give penis size for more IQ points. I might do that. I might do that. All right, but there is a study that just came out.
Starting point is 00:17:23 But I don't know that in my business, i.e. stand-up comedy, IQ points are that valuable. There's a study that just came out, which apparently there is an inverse correlation between IQ and penis size. People with higher IQs, on average, have smaller, shorter penises. Can you look that up, Max? Is this related to the hotel room? It should be like, do a restricted Google search in the last,
Starting point is 00:17:50 not 12 years ago, in the last week. You know how to do that, Max? Yeah. Okay. Max, you know how to Google like just within one site? Just within one site?
Starting point is 00:18:00 Yeah. No. Okay. I'm feeling better, better, better, better, better every moment. I guess I've had sex with a lot of really dumb guys. Really dumb guys?
Starting point is 00:18:09 I'm going to ask you one more time to name the three items that we had discussed earlier. Pen, giraffe, saxophone. You're fine. You're fine. Okay. Seriously, I think that that's probably indicative of you don't have dementia. I had trouble there for a second
Starting point is 00:18:23 though. I had trouble too. I second, though. I had trouble, too. I couldn't remember saxophone. But we don't know your bass line. Also, you weren't trying. Right. The question also wasn't directed at me. I just want to go on record and say that it reflects very poorly
Starting point is 00:18:39 on someone that is hiring... It was an abs check. Okay. You want to read it, Perrielle? And use your sexy voice. This study investigates the global correlation between adult penile length and intelligence.
Starting point is 00:18:59 Intelligent quotient. I can't see. The thing just... It wasn't there before it was there. Okay. I'll read it. Object. This study investigates the global correlation between adult penile length and intelligence quotient. I can't see. It wasn't there before it was there. Okay, I'll read it. Object. This study investigates the global correlation between adult penile length and intelligence quotient, IQ. Methodology. The study utilizes data from 100... You know what number
Starting point is 00:19:13 that is? Or do you have to figure it out? 115,387 males aged... It's funny they had to say males. Aged 18 to 65 across 139 countries examining penile size and IQ measurements. After adjusting for variables including GDP, per capita educational spending, daily maximum temperature, and BMI. Are those the only things they could control for?
Starting point is 00:19:38 We perform partial correlation and regression analysis on penile length and IQ along with an inter-ethnic comparison. Results, a statistically significant negative correlation was found between flaccid penile length and IQ. The peak quotient is less than.001, indicating higher IQs in individuals with shorter penile lengths and notable ethnic differences were observed. Conclusions? No, what does that mean? Notable ethnic? You're just in time.
Starting point is 00:20:07 I don't know why you're even going there. Notable ethnic differences. Conclusions. An inverse relationship between flaccid penile length and IQ. We had nothing to talk about until you got here. Flaccid penile length and IQ could be linked to genetic, evolutionary, or environmental factors. Oh, that's a brilliant conclusion.
Starting point is 00:20:28 Could be linked to genetic, evolutionary, or environmental factors, offering insights into the penile size IQ connection. All right, let's change the subject. Well, I don't know why you would. First of all, that's one study. And you go on the internet and you can find studies that say any number of things. Well, that's one study. Why are you defensive?
Starting point is 00:20:46 Look, I have nothing to be defensive about, but it's a very very controversial... What you just basically said is what we were discussing last week with Richard Hananaya. You're broaching a very sensitive topic. No, it's not saying that. It's saying even within
Starting point is 00:21:01 control for ethnicity, so even within any given ethnicity, the correlation stood. If it was inter-ethnic, then it would not be correlated to IQ and penile size. It would be a correlation of IQ and ethnicity. Okay, so you're saying within an ethnicity. Yes, I think that's it.
Starting point is 00:21:19 The smarter guys have smaller dicks is basically the takeaway here. That's according to that one study. I don't know what that says about the two of you. It may well be valid. Okay. Of all the things to be talking about before. Rudy Rockman.
Starting point is 00:21:34 We don't normally talk about this stuff. Rudy Rockman. Rockman. Rudy Rockman, born in France, grew up all over the world. Miami, Los Angeles, Palo Alto, Singapore, and Israel. And he enlisted in the IDF at age 17 and served in the 101st Airborne Brigade. And he was a student at Columbia and founded a grassroots pro-Israel movement, which, according to your bio, revolutionized campus discourse on Israel.
Starting point is 00:22:04 Welcome, Rudy Rockman. Or should I I say but how do you say welcome in Hebrew all right so sir first of all let me tell you this before you get there my wife is like worshipping at the altar of Rudy Rockman no no yeah she is she's like she's a chance idolatry and everything. What's that? We're against idolatry and everything. But she's not Jewish. She's Puerto Rican. And to be honest, like she knows,
Starting point is 00:22:33 in all seriousness, she's a huge fan of yours. But because, like Perrielle, she's so, I don't really look at what she sends me or what it is because she's so into memes and memes are so often
Starting point is 00:22:49 um you know shallow or misleading i i don't want to get um sucked into them so i'm i i'm not fully familiar with with everything you do but many people i I know, people who I trust more than Periel, have indicated to me that you are a formidable force to be reckoned with in terms of the power of your advocacy of the Israeli position. And I'm pleased to meet you. My wife was supposed to come here today, but she was quivering with like, no, she has some ailment and she's not here today. But anyway, welcome to the show. Thank you, thank you for having me. And so, and just one more thing before we get into Israel,
Starting point is 00:23:34 you were held prisoner in Nigeria? Yes. Can we start with that? Sure. So part of the work that I do is also to correct the problems that my people face. It's also uniting Israelis and Palestinians. It's not being against Palestinians, but it's also finding the Israelite communities that have yet to
Starting point is 00:23:48 return to the nation of Israel. Today's 15 million Jewish population are the descendants of two and a half tribes out of 12, meaning there's nine and a half tribes of our nation that have yet to reconnect with our people. And so we started a project called We Were Never Lost, which is a documentary series that finds these communities, that tells their story to bring them back to the consciousness of our generation. Season one is in Africa. Season two is in Asia. We started three years ago in Nigeria. Since then, we've been to Uganda, Tanzania, Zimbabwe, South Africa, Madagascar, Ethiopia, and every coast.
Starting point is 00:24:18 In Nigeria, the first country that we went to, the government at the time was very against the Jewish Igbo community. And they blamed them for similar things that Jews have been playing throughout time that they run the media that they own all the businesses they own all the real estate so there actually is an on there is an existing they they define themselves as Jewish that they know that they're Jewish I didn't know that Igbo but and and they how many how many, what are their numbers? So, if you look at the number of the Jewish people,
Starting point is 00:24:47 not all Jews are identifying as Jews, not all Jews are practicing Judaism. So today's Igbo population is 50 million. Now the majority of them have been forcibly
Starting point is 00:24:55 converted to Christianity, although yet, the majority of them still identify as Israelites. And the population we want to visit are those who've preserved their form of Judaism,
Starting point is 00:25:03 which is about 50,000 of them. It's a significant number. Yes, absolutely. There were only 50,000 Jews in Jerusalem when the Zionists came, right? It's not an insignificant—and what you're saying is that many more exist and don't realize that they're— Well, is there— Is there DNA? I'm sorry, go ahead. Yeah, I was going to ask the question if there's evidence that these are converts or that they are descended from actual ancient Hebrews?
Starting point is 00:25:27 For sure. So there's no DNA of ancient Hebrews. We have DNA of the Jewish experience, which is post-Judea, so the Roman Empire. We don't have DNA evidence of the First Temple period when all the Israelites were united. So to be able to find DNA, you have to match it to a database that you already have. So there's no DNA evidence because you wouldn't be able to find it yet but there's plenty of archaeological evidence of historians who've traveled there over the past thousand years who've written about these communities there's plenty of evidence out there and for some communities like the lemba in zimbabwe in south africa they have one of the groups called the buba and the buba are basically the priests of their communities now amongst the jewish people there's a role called the Kohen.
Starting point is 00:26:06 A Kohen is a priest. And all Kohens share a genetic marker on the male line, on the Y haplotype line, that shows that they all descend. So for Periel, there's X and Y are the sex, and the Y is always passed on. Finish that, and then we have to get back to the hostage. Yes, yes, yes. So basically, there is a Kohen DNA, right? And that Kohen DNA goes back to 3,000 years ago to around the time when Aaron, the first Kohen, existed.
Starting point is 00:26:31 And Ashkenazi Jews have this Kohen DNA for those who identify as Kohenim. Sephardic Jews have this Kohen DNA, so it doesn't matter if they had an experience in Europe, in North Africa, in the Middle East. All those who are Kohen have this marker. Is that really true? Yes.
Starting point is 00:26:42 And what percentage? So for Ashkenazi Jews, it's about 50% of them who identify as Kohanim. For Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews, it's about 65%. And for the Buba, they did the test,
Starting point is 00:26:51 it's 70% of them have this Kohan marker. Now what about people who don't identify as Jews or percentage? You don't find this DNA marker amongst people
Starting point is 00:26:59 who aren't somehow related or descendants of Jews. You could have a person whose descendants of Kohanim, no longer identified as Jews, have this marker, but you don't find it amongst a cluster of a population that have no connection to Israel. So by what argument is that not conclusive evidence?
Starting point is 00:27:15 Is there an argument there? Well, according to Jewish law, you're not Jewish based on your genetics. I think the genetics... No, that's another matter. In terms of being... No, it shows, I mean, the geneticists that have done these studies, the head geneticists at Columbia University, those that work in many reputable hospitals,
Starting point is 00:27:30 they say that this is conclusive evidence that this population descends from the people of Israel. Now, if they should be considered Jews or not from a halakhic perspective, that's another conversation. Now, stay tuned, everybody. We're going to find out what happened, how he was taken hostage.
Starting point is 00:27:42 But this is interesting, because in the Bible, no expert on the Bible, but I saw the movie, in the Bible, Moses had a child with a non-Jewish woman. And I read about this, and then apparently God commanded Moses to have the child circumcised. So apparently, based on what I read, the idea that it had to be passed through the woman came later. It wasn't always, it's not in the Torah. It's not an ancient law. It's something that was overlaid later on in our tradition.
Starting point is 00:28:21 Do you know about that? So Moses' wife is Tzipo, and Tzipo is absolutely considered to be a Jew or an Israelite or a Hebrew at the time, because then we didn't even identify as Jews. But there are arguments to make that, yes, people who are descendants from a paternal line could have been considered Jews at that time as well.
Starting point is 00:28:37 I'm not making the argument against it. I'm just saying that we need to have a better conversation today of how to bring peoples together. So why have I read, and this was a rabbi I read, that Zipporah was... Maybe he had another woman. Well, she was born to a non-Jewish community, but that doesn't mean that she didn't become a Jew when she became part of Israel. Also, this is pre-receiving of the Torah, and pre-receiving the Torah is pre-the rules
Starting point is 00:29:00 of what the Torah came with. Does the Torah say it has to be a woman? There are sources that, again, I'm not making nargis, but there are sources that rabbis say in saying, this prophet said to cast out all the non-Jewish women from this community and their children as well, which would show
Starting point is 00:29:15 that their children and the non-Jewish women were not considered to be Jews. Because if you would have a child and the father would be Jewish, then you would keep the children and you wouldn't cast them out. And they source this as a reason to say this shows that the children of non-Jewish women are not Jewish. But they are, according to them as well, called Zerah Israel, meaning the seeds of Israel. And in Judaism, you're not allowed to convert people. You're not allowed to go to people and try to get them to convert.
Starting point is 00:29:40 However, with those that are Zerah Israel, you have to make the effort to bring them closer to our people. Because they still are in this gray area that they are part of our people, but they're not yet halakhically Jewish, which again, halakha is also something that's developed with time, that rabbis added on to, that debated on. And so there's a much greater conversation we can have about that. But the point is, is that you have many pockets of Israelites that exist all around the world, in the four corners, in Africa, in Asia, in South America. They identify as Jews.
Starting point is 00:30:07 China? Yes, China, the Kaifeng Jews, absolutely. And are there Chinese Collins? What do you mean Collins? Collins, you know. Oh, Collins, no, no. The Kaifeng Jews are mostly descendants from Iraqi traders that were traveling through the Silk Road
Starting point is 00:30:22 and eventually established the community there, converted the local women to Judaism, mixed and stayed Jewish, actually Orthodox Jewish throughout time, and they still are there and are not yet considered part of the Jewish people and allowed back in. And then we get to the hostage.
Starting point is 00:30:37 So, but by your estimations, like there's supposed to be what, how many Jews in the world by? 15 million today. 15 million. Of us, yeah. And your estimation, if we were to include all our brothers and sisters that you're describing, how many Jews would there be on planet Earth?
Starting point is 00:30:52 So let's put the 15 million to the side. The descendants of Israel from these nine and a half tribes are 500 million. Now, these 500 million are not all identifying as Jews, just like you go to America and you have 60 to 80% assimilation rates. Not every Jew is identifying as Jews, just like you go to America and you have 60 to 80 percent assimilation rates, not every Jew is identifying as Jew. Of that 500 million genetic population, about 20 percent of them are identifying as Jews, and about half of them want to make Aliyah. So that's 50 million people that would want to move to Israel and that identify as part of the Jewish people. By the way, Noam's children are Zeri Yisrael. The wife is Puerto Rican,
Starting point is 00:31:24 never converted. Well, she might be a banana sim as well. There's many Jews that left from the Spanish Inquisition that fled to the Caribbeans, that fled to South America, and that hid their identity. And I've seen a big pattern that Jews who end up with women from those places, the majority of the time
Starting point is 00:31:40 they actually descend from Israelite communities. What's her last name, by the way? Goldberg? She's part Indian. No no she's also half indian be harry be harry a lot of names that end with s lopez rodriguez dominguez as was actually a code name for jews to know that they're actually jews in hiding pretending to be christian what was the body type of those okay so now tell us how you- You would know more than me. No.
Starting point is 00:32:07 Tell us about how you were taken hostages. Yes. So Nigeria is not the safest country in the world. People who go against the politicians disappear left and right all the time. And the government at the time was very against the Igbo population. They had massacred them in 1967 in the Biafra War,
Starting point is 00:32:26 and still there's persecution till this day. So we knew coming into Nigeria, we're not here to get involved with the politics, but we're here to tell the story of a population that many in the government experience or think of them as their enemies. So we land in- Which is getting involved in the politics.
Starting point is 00:32:42 Well, we're not here to play politics in Nigeria. We're just here to say they have no Jewish connection. Yes. Well, there are movements trying to separate the southern part of Nigeria, which is Biafra, Igbo land, and to create independence from Nigeria. So that's the politics that they fear. That's not what I'm involved with. I'm just talking about their Jewish heritage and trying to reconnect our greater family. And I'm doing this all around the world right now, starting in Africa and all across Africa we've been.
Starting point is 00:33:08 So we get to Ogidi and we're with this Jewish community. We brought them a Sefer Torah that was given to us as a gift. And we spent a day and a half with them. And it's one of the most beautiful experiences I've ever had in my life. Just the amount of Torah and Jewish learning and connection that they have and how they want to move to Israel and study in Yeshiva and serve in the army and do all sorts of things to be connected to the Jewish people is really beautiful to see. After a day and a half there, we wake up Friday morning,
Starting point is 00:33:35 getting ready to film their preparations for Shabbat, filming them making challah, filming them have a Jewish life to show the rest of the world what is actually going here. We get a call from the lobby that says, come downstairs, the police are here here bring your passports and phones we haven't done anything illegal so there's no reason for us to doubt that we come downstairs and it's not the police it's 15 armed gun militants with black ski masks pointing guns at us immediately they take our phones and passports we tried to negotiate telling them listen we have things to film we haven't been accused of anything what do you want from us and making french there we know english
Starting point is 00:34:08 it's a former british colony so most people speak english um and so we're speaking we're telling them listen let us film we'll come later if you have questions like you know you're not even telling us what we're doing wrong no negotiation they grab us they bring us outside there are three vans waiting for us we're a team of three me no, and David. And they put each of us in a separate car, drive us to a government location. We basically spent the entire day there, the entire night. Wake up the next morning. They bring us back into three other cars. And then they drive us 15 hours away to a Nigerian prison in Abuja, which is the capital city in Nigeria. And there we spent three weeks in Nigerian prison. the first week
Starting point is 00:34:45 we were in a small cage maybe six meters by six i'm gonna show you a picture will you put up the picture of dan's motel room again what was it like in nigerian prison three years has passed so we can uh we can take humor from it i'm sorry i'm sorry no no it's okay it's okay um but what was it it was very there were very I didn't mean to be. It's all good. Right before you came, Dan was talking about his horrible hotel room, and he had a picture of it. But Noam, the capitalist that he is, defended the cruise line.
Starting point is 00:35:16 Okay, so what was it like in the Nigerian prison? Right, so we get put into this cage that's about six meters by six meters. We're three of us full of rat feces human urine mold and the most dangerous situation that we're in is one of our friends David who's 20 years older than me this was three years ago I was 27 now I'm 30 so he's 47 he has an immune system disorder that if he doesn't have his medication he dies in fact he survived two cancers from his condition and we find ourselves in the place
Starting point is 00:35:45 that's the worst if his immune system were to crash. And his medication is 15 hours away in the hotel. And it's already been two days that he hasn't taken his medication. So I basically now have five days to get help and to get my friend out or else he dies. And it wasn't easy. They were starving us. They didn't give us food for five days, only water. And they were starving us they didn't give us food for for five days um only water and they were taking us for interrogation never charged us with anything never physical physical interrogation i mean i would say that starving someone and keeping them in those conditions is a form of torture but they didn't hit us right okay um did they did they look like they might hit you did they did they posture like they might hit you well we didn't give them reasons to hit us either.
Starting point is 00:36:27 I'm still shocked that Noam thinks that the people speak French in Nigeria. I was stupid. Go ahead. In Madagascar, we spoke French with the people. So anyways, I tried a few different things. I tried stealing a phone to try to send a message, and then I realized they all have Androids, and I wouldn't even be able to know the code.
Starting point is 00:36:43 And then I tried thinking maybe I can spy on the codes and write them on the wall and then steal a phone and note. And days go by and nothing happens. So on the fifth day, I told myself, you know what, I think they're going to bring us food today because clearly they're giving us water. They would have killed us along the way if they would have actually taken us out. So they're not trying to kill us. They're trying to make us suffer.
Starting point is 00:37:01 And if they come to give us food, maybe I can use that as a leverage point and then to our advantage. And so two of the guards that particularly didn't like us who happened to be Muslim, who come and put the food in front of our face, this nasty Nigerian prison food, and I can see their smirk because they were sort of happy to see us lunge at the food. But we didn't give them that satisfaction. I looked at them and I said, are you guys Muslim? And they said yes, and I said, would you eat pork even if you didn't eat for five days
Starting point is 00:37:30 if you're a strong Muslim? And they said, absolutely not, we would never eat pork. I was like, because pork is haram. And they said yes. I was like, to me this is haram. I do not eat this food. I eat halal min musa. Now halal is their version of kosher,
Starting point is 00:37:42 and musa is Moshe, Moses in Arabic. So I'm basically telling them, I keep the kosher of Moses, and I cannot eat this food. I could only eat halal min musa. And I tell them, however, I have a solution for you. There's a place here in Abuja that has halal min musa food, and if you call them and you tell them there are three Jews here in this prison, they'll bring you food for free three times a day. It's called the Chabad of Abuja. Now, I knew that for them, a halal restaurant, you know, everyone's making food. Now, there's a bunch of Muslims there. The Muslim are the majority population of the largest ethnic
Starting point is 00:38:15 group. So, of course, they don't all know each other. But the moment that a Jewish synagogue, a Chabad, a Jewish community center would hear that there are three Jews that they need to provide food for in this prison, and it just so happens that there are three Israelis that are missing that no one can find that Chabad would put two and two together and would be able to call the ambassadors and our parents. And that's how we could basically scream to the world and say, this is where we are. And you conceive this strategy in your head. I mean, keep in mind that we're there day and night, no phone, no nothing. In such conditions, knowing that your friend is about to die, your mind races to find solutions. I mean, I even thought of an idea.
Starting point is 00:38:51 Maybe I'll convince one of them to play some of my brother's song on Spotify. And then from the list of songs that were played from different countries, they can locate them. I was thinking of anything that I could to find a way to reach out to the world. I mean, I'll survive. Noam will survive, but my friend here, we have days left. And I come up with this idea on the sixth day, they come back to us with more of this prison food,
Starting point is 00:39:16 we deny it, and so they decide to call Chabad. Chabad picks up the phone, says, you know, yes, who is this? We need you to provide three meals for three Yahud. We need halal musafud. And they're like, says, you know, yes, who is this? We need you to provide three meals for three Yehud. We need halal min musafud. And they're like, okay, no problem. We'll be right there. And then they pick up the phone, ambassador of Israel, ambassador of France, ambassador of the United States, my parents, we know where they are. And that's how the world finally found out where we were.
Starting point is 00:39:40 I have one little other question. They were ready to get you food to sustain you. Why were they not ready to get your friend his medicine? Because he has a medical condition from him having HIV, which would lead them to know that he's gay. I see. Which would then expose him for being something that is considered illegal and could be used against him. So it was riskier to ask for the medicine than to...
Starting point is 00:40:05 Yes. So eventually David gets out that night. The ambassador of Israel comes, negotiates with the guards, lets them know there's going to be a huge international crisis if they don't let him out. David gets out. He's able to actually get snuck out the next morning by the French embassy who brings him to the embassy.
Starting point is 00:40:23 And from that moment on, he was safe. We come back to the cage that we were in they agreed for Chabad to bring uh one meal a day from that day on and we ate it every single day except the day that they brought gefilte fish because we have morals and we're not here uh to uh continue the oppression we've been through enough um and so we had one meal a day and that night when we got back to this cage the guard that was there happened to be the guard who liked us now how he got to like us i think you'll probably enjoy this story and he's also muslim no he's actually a christian garden christian and i usually actually
Starting point is 00:40:54 get more along with muslims than christians but just so happens to be this way now this christian guard had his bible and keep in mind before i had any plan i was trying to maybe build relations with them maybe i relations with them. Maybe I can convince them to send a message, to do something if they liked us. And so I try to explain to them, I'm like, listen, you know, you believe in Jesus and Jesus was a Jew. I'm a Jew. Jesus lived in Jerusalem. I live in Jerusalem. It says in the Bible, if you bless us, we'll be blessed. If you curse us, we'll be cursed. You know, I'm not asking you to break me out, but maybe at least you can, you know, send a message to my mom and let her know I'm okay. And he didn't want to have it. He didn't want to listen
Starting point is 00:41:28 to me. And one moment I tell him something and that finally breaks him. He says, you know what? You guys aren't the chosen people anymore. You're no longer the people of God because you've rejected Jesus. And so now only those who follow Jesus are the chosen people. And I'm like, ah, we're getting somewhere. At least there's a dialogue happening. And I was like, explain to me how you consider Jesus to be the Messiah, if the Messiah or Mashiach or this reality has to exist, for which there's world peace, the dead come back to life, animals are able to live with each other without hunting each other. I mean, that reality clearly doesn't exist in this world. There's a bunch of war. There's a bunch of problems.
Starting point is 00:42:00 So explain to me how you could claim that Jesus would be the Mashiach. And he says, well, I'm going to show you a verse from the Old Testament that proves that Jesus is the Mashiach. And he's opening his book. And I'm like, damn, I don't know all the arguments against Christian missionaries. But a week before I left to Nigeria, I listened to a rabbi named Rav Tuvia Singer, who debates a lot of people. And for some reason, this was the one argument I memorized. And as he's opening the book, I'm like, please, Hashem, let this be the one argument he pulls up right now. And so before he opens the book, I tell them,
Starting point is 00:42:30 don't tell me you're opening up Isaiah 53. And he's like, how'd you know? I was like, listen, in Isaiah 53, it says that the humble servant is the Messiah. You're gonna come to me and assume that the humble servant is Jesus, for which it says that nowhere. But in Isaiah 52, 51, 50, 49, 48, it says that the
Starting point is 00:42:46 humble servant is the nation of Israel. It has already defined the character in the book. When you read a book and it describes, let's say, a woman or a man's hair as blonde or brown, you don't need to say it again. You've already assumed what color it is. It's already described that the humble servant is the nation of Israel. So when it's saying that the humble servant is the Mashiach, it already has described that that's the nation of Israel. And he's reading through the pages and realizing that I'm proving him wrong. And at the same time, shocked that I knew what he was going to say before he said it.
Starting point is 00:43:10 And from that moment on, he sees me as this like great rabbi of Jerusalem and comes super excited every single time asking me questions. Now I know a lot of Torah, but I'm not a rabbi. And so sometimes he would ask me questions that I didn't have the answers for. And so I'd have to play it off. And I was like, listen, you're not yet ready for those questions.
Starting point is 00:43:26 You know, you might have a few more lessons and then maybe I'll give you those answers. And it was really to keep that dynamic of him respecting us. Because keep in mind, we're trying to build human relations with any person we can get to get any intel, any information, any resource. Would it not have been easier just to say, you know what? You got me. Humble servant. Yeah. No. Jesus. No. I it not have been easier just to say, you know what? You got me. Humble servant. Yeah. No. Jesus. No. No, I'm not that. Did you have any training in the army, in the Israeli army, to prepare you for being a prisoner? No, I don't think anyone has a training for being a prisoner.
Starting point is 00:43:56 I was trained to be a soldier, to fight enemies, to protect life, but definitely not in that situation. But you also have a mindset and you could also come from an individual who's not a soldier some people have a warrior mindset of survival and i think a lot of people have it within us that it's not tapped into until you get to those moments a lot of people think that they can't do something but when it comes to life or death situations all of a sudden they find the energy within them and they kind of rise to the occasion. So anyways, this guard is the guard that is there on that seventh day, that sixth day, that night. When David gets out and we go back to the cage, they were agreed to give us one meal a day and it happens to be this one guard.
Starting point is 00:44:35 And he's not willing to even look at me as I pass by him. He's like turning his face away. And so I knew that there was something wrong here because usually he would be excited to see me. And I asked him, I was like, what's going on? He's like, well, I'm not supposed to tell you, but tomorrow they're transferring you to another cage. It's going to be slightly bigger,
Starting point is 00:44:51 but you're going to have two cellmates, and those two cellmates are Boko Haram terrorists, which is ISIS of Nigeria, one of which killed 70 people in a terror attack. The other person is also a bad person. They're the ones who took all the children prisoners. Yes, and they do the female body mutilation from the bottom down um and so the and they told us and they know that you're jewish and they know that you're israeli and so that information gave us the ability to
Starting point is 00:45:15 psychologically prepare uh for getting into that situation for which the next morning we had to make sure they would know who should be afraid of who and it wasn't us that should be afraid of them and for two weeks we had to survive there a ton of interrogations one meal a day no sunlight no colors no mental stimulation and three weeks without knowing when it would end it could have been months it could have been years we didn't know if really the world knew about us if people were talking about it or if let's say people cared and then stopped caring it became old news we had no idea like we're just moving this this cage the bars and we're like why are we here like we came here to do a mission to show something good to show light about a community not to suffer did the cellmates try to push you around try to threaten you uh try to kill you i'll leave it as they tested us and we showed them that we shouldn't be tested again and uh after three weeks our parents mostly were able to put so much political pressure onto
Starting point is 00:46:12 the different governments the us israel and uh in america that had the passports that we all held and they put political pressure onto the nigerian government and eventually we were released on the third week um we were taken out of there brought to the airport from the airport to istanbul istanbul back to tel aviv and i think really the the moral of the story is not just what we experienced because what we went through is a drop compared to the ocean of experiences that the ebos face with every day it's that we're living in a reality where part of the family of israel has come back home has abundant wealth for the most part so many jews are so successful and even if they're not wealthy rich they're definitely not of the family of Israel has come back home, has abundant wealth for the most part. So many Jews are so successful. And even if they're not wealthy, rich, they're definitely not dirt poor,
Starting point is 00:46:50 like so many people in the world. And we're not really being killed like we were back in Nazi Germany or in the Inquisition, although anti-Semitism is rising and of course will happen also on October 7th. But there are also other communities of Israelites that are being persecuted and killed and exterminated. And we have no idea about that. And what I started this project by is realizing if they had come home first, and my family on my dad's side was still being killed in the Holocaust in Poland and Belgium, and my family on my mom's side were still being killed in Morocco in the Ujda massacre that they survived, I would expect them to come for us.
Starting point is 00:47:21 I would expect them to recognize us, to help us. And even if there's like some problematic things that, you know, they didn't keep, we didn't keep so much kosher, we lost these traditions or not. I wouldn't expect them to judge us. I would expect them to come and help us. And if we're missing something, then maybe help us get back there. So I think that the role of this project is to bring these stories back to the consciousness of our generation. And I made the community a promise because their mom was also taken captive. The matriarch of the family that we were visiting
Starting point is 00:47:47 was taken captive also along with us and put into a woman's prison. And two weeks later, she was released after we were released and we were fighting, paid for her lawyers, paid for her bail to get her out. And I remember when I got out and I spoke to their children, which are close friends of mine,
Starting point is 00:48:01 I told them, listen, I cannot promise you when the political systems and the policies will change, when the rabbinical system will find the solution for you to come back. But what I can promise you is that we are the last generation that was born not knowing who you are. And from now on, our generation will know, and whatever solution we need to find, that's something that our generation will have to do. So this is amazing. So Israel had Operation Exodus, where they, on the cover of night, I think there's two waves of it, snuck out all the Ethiopian.
Starting point is 00:48:33 Half of them. Half of them. There's still the other half that are remaining there that have yet to be able to come back. Snuck out half the Ethiopian. And this was controversial within Israel. I have a slight knowledge of this. I'm happy to correct me on the details,
Starting point is 00:48:45 where some of the Orthodox rabbis weren't quite satisfied that these people met all the check marks to be considered Jewish. And I think that's what you're alluding to, that the the people in charge of the Jewish rules are reluctant to accept that these people are authentically Jewish and therefore they're not moving the government to take the extraordinary steps that they would take if it was European Jews. So maybe that's correct?
Starting point is 00:49:20 Absolutely correct. I think it comes from a fear of the other. First of all, Jewish experience, especially in Europe, has been anyone who's different is coming to kill us, so there's already a fear of the other. But I also think living for 2,000 years amongst Europeans, where the mentality was that Europeans that weren't considered Jews, right? Europeans are superior and others are inferior, for which is why the West decided to colonize the world, because they were superior and could do so, that mentality also trickled down to some rabbis who have this mentality that Ashkenazi Judaism is this superior Judaism, and Sephardi Mizrahi is lower and forget about the Ethiopian
Starting point is 00:49:54 and even forget about the Igbos and others. And so unfortunately, that still exists. It's not particularly because of someone's skin color, because you have communities of Asian Jews who aren't dark, but they also reject them. It's the idea of anyone being different, and it's coming from a place of trauma. And our goal is to change that. Now, something, if talking about the Ethiopian community, where we need to bring some nuance, is they were allowed to start coming back home in 1979. The narrative that we're all taught, and I was taught this narrative as well,
Starting point is 00:50:21 is that they're suffering, and Israel came and saved the day. And they were suffering, and those that were able to come back were saved. However, they were suffering all throughout the 70s, all throughout the 60s, all throughout the 50s and 40s, and so on, because every Jewish experience were being persecuted everywhere in the world. That's a constant experience we had. So why did we wait till 1979 to do something about it?
Starting point is 00:50:41 It wasn't famine really setting in at that time. But they had other episodes of famine, other episodes of exterminations. I mean, they were considered a term called Buddha, which is like impure, and they were being killed and being killed for the blaming of the death of Jesus and so many other things.
Starting point is 00:50:55 So why Dafka? Like, why just in 1979 do they wake up? Dafka means like spitefully. I know you know what Dafka means. Why just now? Why does it like right now have to happen? And the unfortunate answer What does dafka mean?
Starting point is 00:51:06 Spitefully Dafka On purpose Yeah, more on purpose Why now does it have to happen? Intentionally Intentionally with spite Not intentionally as an act of
Starting point is 00:51:17 It depends in which sense Now I'm just saying the last No, I've been questioning my whole life He did a dafka In that way, use it But but you can say dafka. You can use it also in the positive. It depends on the context. Oh, you meant it positive.
Starting point is 00:51:29 Well, not necessarily. I meant it with a purpose. There was a reason why they did it specifically on this date. And the way it happened is you have Rav Avad Yosef, who is the chief rabbi of Israel, who declares that the Ethiopian are Jews, and he finds documentation that proves that you had a great rabbi in Egypt that talked about them hundreds of years ago,
Starting point is 00:51:45 which shows that you have a rabbinical line of a thought that talked about this community, and whatever he did, he gives them the approval. But why did the government want to give approval to these communities? Well, a few years before, the United Nations passes a resolution equating Zionism to racism. And so the politicians realize, well,
Starting point is 00:52:02 if we bring back black Jews, the world won't call us racist. And that's why the Ethiopian Jews were brought at that time. Now, it's great that they were brought, but there's many more to be brought. And I don't see me going to a politician and explaining to them that we have family members in those places and that changing their minds. You have to create the conditions for the politicians to create those policies. So if you do a documentary series on a large mainstream streaming network that then touches the heart of the world and of all Jews, all of a sudden politicians are gonna be like,
Starting point is 00:52:31 wait, you mean I'm gonna get votes if I start caring about them? If I start speaking about, of course I care about the Igbos in Nigeria and the Tanzanian Jews in Tanzania and the Malagasy Jews in Madagascar and the Lemba in Zimbabwe in South Africa. Of course I care about the Kayfeng in China
Starting point is 00:52:44 and the Pashtun in Afghanistan. The only way to get politics to move is to create the conditions for them to move. And that's really the goal of our project is not just to create a film. Of course we want to bring the ideas back, but we want to bring the ideas back in order to enact a reality where all the descendants of Israel can come back to the land of Israel if they choose to and all of us be united wherever we are in the world. Well, the practical problem is that Israel's only so large. They have room. Well, they don't have room for 50 million people if that's what it comes to. Well, I think that's
Starting point is 00:53:14 a larger question. First of all, there's plenty of room in the south of Israel and north of Israel. You can drive for hours and not see anything. But at the same time, we also have to consider the needs of Palestinians, right? Because in because my opinion there's no reality where israelis or palestinians disappear and the only way for us to move forward is to create a reality that fulfills the aspirations of both which are different and ends the injustices of both which are also different and neither of them are mutually exclusive nor compete with each other and if you look at historically the land of israel it's not what the british drew as what looks like the map of Israel today. It included Jordan. Tribes of Israel lived in Jordan as well. Jordan was a part of the British mandate of Palestine, and it was given to the Hashemite kingdom. Now, the Hashemite kingdom,
Starting point is 00:53:53 Hashemite family was the family fighting the Saudi family. The Saudi family won and renamed Arabia to Saudi Arabia. Hashemite family gets kicked out. They had certain interests that the British wanted, so they traded with the British, and the British gave them three-fifths of the mandate of Palestine to create this fake country called Jordan. The majority of Jordanians today, between 70 and 80 percent of them, are Palestinian. So maybe in a future reality, we can create one civilization which would include Jordan and would give equal rights to Israelis and Palestinians and include back all the tribes of Israel. I'm just throwing out the theory out there. There are ways of finding solutions, but we need to understand that any solution that does not fulfill the aspirations of both populations and does not end the injustice of both populations,
Starting point is 00:54:32 we will not be able to move forward without that. You're talking about one state where there's Palestinians and Jews. This is the one-state solution that so many anti-Zionists talk about. Let me just say, it's... Sure. It's one civilization, by the way, not one state, because you could have a federation or emirates, it's some canton system. There's many diverse ways that you
Starting point is 00:54:56 can create it, but it's a way for all sides to win. You have to understand what do Palestinians want that are non-negotiable, what do Jews want that are non-negotiable, and how do you create a reality that fixes both of those things? And that's something we've never tried on this land. Well, okay, let's get to Gaza. So I read, there's some right-wingers who have flirted with the idea of a one-state solution, thinking they could keep Jewish birth rates high enough. But apparently that's not, population experts say that's a pipe dream.
Starting point is 00:55:25 But if you were to bring in 20 million Jews from another part of the world, then you could risk the idea of, because there's a certain number of people who want to see the West Bank annexed, but to make everybody a citizen. And you can make all the Palestinian citizens and still not have to worry about what I think is a legitimate worry of the Jews living as a minority. But then the Palestinians would be living as a minority, and I don't think they want that. So you're talking about—
Starting point is 00:55:54 What Palestinians don't want is not minority or majority. What Palestinians want is justice and equal rights from the river to the sea. Palestinians actually care more about local governments than they do about national governments. If you go to the West Bank, to Judea and Samaria, most Palestinians hate Abu Mazen, hate the Palestinian Authority. What they care about in their villages and their kfarim and their communities is the local family that runs that family.
Starting point is 00:56:15 And there's one patriarch and that's their leader. They care more about the local power. Whereas you speak to most Jews living in Israeli cities, they don't know who the mayor of Herzliya is, who the mayor of Kfar Saba is, who the mayor of Tel Aviv is. Maybe a few individuals, but most people don't. So actually our needs and how we have representation is different. And once we understand and not superimpose one need onto the other, then we can actually create a solution that fits the needs of all. And again, what I'm saying is like, I'm not coming here and saying, this is the
Starting point is 00:56:40 solution, this is what we need to do. But we've never tried that. And the options we have on the table is either one population will exterminate the other, which obviously I don't see that happening. I don't see all Jews being killed, all Palestinians being killed. The other option is one population gets exiled. I don't see that happening either, where all Israelis or all Palestinians are getting kicked out. The third option is continuing the status quo, what we've been doing nonstop of a war every few years, suffering on both sides and the situation continuing or pushing these foreign ideas like two states onto the peoples that the majority of Israelis don't want that and the majority of Palestinians don't want that. Or a fourth solution, which is building something that focuses, okay,
Starting point is 00:57:16 you know, if you want to be a broker between a deal of between two friends, you're like, okay, at the end of the day, this guy wants that this girl wants that. Here isn't something a solution that you both win. But what about the solution of a two state solution along the lines of the day, this guy wants that, this girl wants that. Here isn't something, a solution that you both win. But what about the solution of a two-state solution along the lines of the 67 borders with land swaps as... It sounds nice if you look at the land as just a piece of territory, but to Israelis and Palestinians, we view this land as our soulmate. And so the majority of Israelis would never accept that, and the majority of Palestinians would never accept that. That's not true. A majority of Israelis were willing to accept it. We're willing to engage
Starting point is 00:57:47 with this idea potentially in the past. Today, absolutely not. They would change. Let me put it this way. Today you have between six and... And the majority doesn't show they wouldn't change. I've looked at those polls. Do we agree that the majority of Palestinians would not agree with that? The majority of Palestinians may not agree
Starting point is 00:58:04 with anything. No, they wouldn't. I, no, would not agree. No, they wouldn't. I work with Palestinians on the ground. They would never agree to a reality where from the river to the sea, they don't live on this land. The majority of Israelis today would disagree with that.
Starting point is 00:58:15 And let's say we go backwards to a time where many Israelis wanted to do that, okay? Today in Judea and Samaria, between 600 to 700,000 Jews living there. They all have guns. The majority of combat officers in the IDF are from those communities. The majority of Israelis today support them living there. If one day Israel would think that they can do what they did in Gaza and go into those places and remove almost a million people from their lands, from their schools, from their universities, from their businesses, you would see a civil war.
Starting point is 00:58:43 You would see a civil war that that side would win. But that wasn't what was proposed. It was proposed that large blocks would stay, that they would swap for other land, that most of those large blocks are in very sensitive security areas overlooking Tel Aviv or whatever. But all right, let's not get bogged down into that.
Starting point is 00:59:00 Listen, I'm actually, I love this idea, I think. I don't know. I i mean it doesn't offend me that's for sure but whether or not it's ever ever going to happen in anybody's lifetime or even if you know it seems as unlikely as the two-state solution yeah they said things like that also about the idea of the creation of the state of israel Yes, yes, yes. I know, I know. I'm not... I know, I know. I'm just... But do you...
Starting point is 00:59:28 History takes sharp turns. Just to follow up on your idea of a... One civilization. One civilization. With that one civilization, what would the flag look like? Those are... Would there be a Jewish symbol on the flag?
Starting point is 00:59:44 Those are like... You put both are like decorations on the top. There are countries like Burma and Myanmar who have two different names. Maybe we called it Israel and they call it Palestine. I don't have a problem with that. As long as you respect my right to call it Israel. I can wave my flag, you can wave your flag. There is a problem,
Starting point is 01:00:02 and then I really want to talk about Israel now, that that part of the world is characterized by different tribes not being able to live together without horrible bloody violence i mean one of the things we as jews lament is that 500 000 people were killed here a few hundred thousand people in the Muslim world, always tribal violence, and nobody much cares. It would be quite risky, you know, to bring that potential into your country. But as you say, you know, whatever.
Starting point is 01:00:40 So let's talk about Israel now. Can I ask a question? Yeah, yeah. So you were sitting in Washington Square Park with a sign that says, I just got out of Gaza, ask me anything. I would be really interested to hear what people were asking you.
Starting point is 01:00:58 I had a variety of different conversations. Some people were open-minded. At first they questioned, are you a Palestinian or are you a soldier and I told them that you know I got out of the army 10 years ago and on October 7th I was enlisted back actually on October 7th at 5 p.m. I was fighting Hamas in Kfar Aza one of the communities that was hit the worst on that day and then my unit was sent two months into Khan Yunis into Gaza but as I was speaking to, I was showing them that this is not a reality that I want to see.
Starting point is 01:01:28 I don't want to see war. All of my efforts and work, even before the war and after the war, is to get us out of this mindset that to be pro-Palestinian, you have to be anti-Israel. To be pro-Israel, you have to be anti-Palestinian. And unfortunately, I had no other choice but to fight and to defend my people as I would defend any person that I saw attacked. But I care about the Palestinians. I want them to be able to defend my people as I would defend any person that I saw attacked. But I care about the Palestinians. I want them to be able to achieve their aspirations. So even though it's telling them that I'm a soldier, they heard enough from me to know
Starting point is 01:01:52 that I'm not their enemy ideologically or what I would like to see in a future reality. It actually fits what they would like to see as well. So I had some very open-minded conversations that they were interested. They're like, I've never heard a Zionist, an Israeli, a Jew who cares about Palestinians, who includes them in a future reality. So for some, it was refreshing. For others that came with their narratives of, you know, trying to blame Israel for all sorts of the problem and trying to make the Jews seem as like
Starting point is 01:02:18 the worst thing in the world, you know, and they came with this confidence because their professors had told them that and their books that they read had told them that and all their social media tells them that. So they think that this is the only professors had told them that and their books that they read had told them that and all their social media tells them that so they think that this is the only narrative and this is the correct narrative and very quickly uh they realized otherwise and you'll be seeing that content so it's along those lines now i mean i can only speak for my own generation and my own experience having israeli parents and um i was raised never, ever with a lack of human concern for Arabs or any human being. It was always that extreme skepticism
Starting point is 01:03:00 that the Arabs would ever want to make peace with Israel, along the lines of the extreme skepticism that a communist would ever want to have free enterprise. In other words, that this was an ingrained ideological reality within a group of people. And we would hope that someday this ice would melt, as it seemed to when Sadat came, but that we shouldn't get our hopes up. So fast-forwarding now, and I would say that over my lifetime I've seen Israelis become harsher, although I have not heard Israelis, not in my presence, say the most horrible things. I see it online from time to time where I feel I'm ashamed of these people for the things that they say.
Starting point is 01:03:50 Individuals that the majority of the population would reject. I would also add one point. You look at Nazi Germany that exterminated 6 million Jews, the majority of the family on my father's side, 10 years after that civilization did that, they started supporting the state of Israel. So if generations can change things with education and changing a relationship, you can change things.
Starting point is 01:04:08 All right, yes. Question is whether Nazi ideology, which was fleeting, it came and then went in a short time, can... Hamas can come and go? No, but listen, I'm no expert on this stuff, but it seems to, if you read Benny Morris' books about the attitude towards the Jews, it exists a long time. I'm not, anyway.
Starting point is 01:04:29 So then there's a guy, Daryl Cooper, he has Marl Martyr Made on Twitter. You know who he is? I mean, Dan knows who he is. And it's a guy who I actually have a lot of respect for. He's very anti-Israel, but he's very bright. He's very insightful about human nature. He's not a, he respects the rules of evidence and arguments. You know, it's somebody I try to engage with. And he tweets, Glenn Greenwald tweeted, every relevant study and credible report for two months hasets that and writes the rhetoric and actions coming from israeli leadership since october 7th makes it plain and undeniable that this was their goal
Starting point is 01:05:11 meaning that israel's goal all along was to starve the the the the the palestinian people in gaza this is very painful for me to read and um if it's true, you know, or if it's true to some extent. It's most definitely not true. Yeah. But I'm just saying, if it's true to some extent. It's so twisted. But tell us about it. And I think that given everything you've said prior, if you're going to refute it, people should allow you some credibility in what you're about to say, because I think you've expressed in a believable and sincere way how you feel about the humanity of the people that Israel are fighting. So go ahead. And I do also heavily criticize the Israeli government that although they didn't create this conflict, they've failed to do anything to change
Starting point is 01:06:00 it. For 18 years, the Israeli government has known that Palestinians are suffering under Hamas, that Hamas is bringing in weapons, that because they're bringing in weapons and Hamas exists, then there's sort of a blockade that exists that forces Palestinians to suffer. And they've done nothing to change the status quo of the situation. And when you have the power, you have the responsibility to change things. So for that, we need to criticize Israel. However, on October 7th, when Hamas attacks the Jewish people and all civilians that were living there, killing over a thousand people and taking many hostages, and they had built many tunnel systems all throughout the land waiting for combat, knowing that Israel would come in. And now every single time that aid has gone to go to the Palestinians from the Israeli side, Hamas steals that aid. So why would Israel? How do you know that?
Starting point is 01:06:42 Because there's video evidences, because my friends have been there, because there's countless of proofs of Palestinians who are screaming out and saying, Hamas is taking all of our stuff. That's how I know it. It's not a... I'm not challenging you. No, I know. I'm with you. It's a retweet. It's people that are so quick to believe anything that is pointing fingers at Israel, which is really a theme that has happened throughout time. It's pointing the fingers of the Jews. Whenever there's a problem, blame it on the Jews. Right now, Palestinians are suffering. That's something the fingers at the Jews. Whenever there's a problem, blame it on the Jews. Right now, Palestinians are suffering. That's something we need to talk about. But I'm not saying talk about it less.
Starting point is 01:07:09 I'm saying talk about it more. Talk about the specifics as to why it's happening. Why are they not getting food? Because Hamas is taking all the food from them. Why is the IDF even there to begin with? Because Hamas attacked Israel and expecting this war. Why are Palestinians dying? Because when Hamas is shooting at Israeli citizens
Starting point is 01:07:24 or at Israeli soldiers, they're shooting from places where there are civilians. They're forcing the civilians to stay there so that when Israel fires back, all of a sudden there are civilians that are dying. So we need to understand not just what is happening, that civilians are dying, but why they are dying. Because if you don't understand why, you cannot change the what. So if people truly care about Palestinians, we have to talk about the entire context.
Starting point is 01:07:44 Yes, we can definitely criticize the Israeli government for things that they've done, bad politicians for things that they've said, the fact that they've not used their power to get Palestinians out of there, which is a huge failure. But let's not take the context of what was happening here and try to manipulate it because this is just using Palestinian suffering taken out of context, manipulated in order to try to create some sort of political ammunition to make this zero-sum game reality of one versus the other, and there is no future without the other. So let me ask you a question. Is the following cold-hearted logic possible in your view, that the Israeli government says, look, and they have expressed some of this, it would be great for us if the Palestinian people rose up or more of them collaborated with us to indicate where, uh, you know, the enemy was. And, um, one possible way to push them along to rising up and blaming Hamas is to make their lives as miserable as we can, short of, let's say, short of a war crime.
Starting point is 01:08:47 So we don't want to starve them, but we're not going to hop to it every time there's a demand for aid. Is it possible that something ugly like that could explain the delivery of aid, but not the abundant delivery of aid you know because it's hard to imagine for people that the if israel had decided that it was absolutely job one to make sure there was enough food in gaza that they couldn't have figured out some way to do it beyond the fact imagine you have people robbing a bank and you want to provide food to the hostages and you're giving pizzas. But at the end of the day, it's the people who have the guns who decide who gets the food.
Starting point is 01:09:28 So it's a nice scenario that you presented. But at the end of the day, people are under – they're hostages themselves of Hamas. Hamas decides what goes in, what goes out, who gets what. You can also see pictures of them selling the actual aid. Yeah, I know. But let's say Israel delivered 10 times as much aid through airlines. But first of all, they wouldn't get it. They would still sell it.
Starting point is 01:09:48 They would just make 10 times more money. And on top of that, they would be supplying Hamas that would use that to fuel themselves to fight and kill more and to maintain. So you know these people, I mean the Israelis. Yes. And you don't seem to be reluctant to criticize them. No, I criticize the fact that we've gotten to this situation. I understand. I'm really trying to push you on,
Starting point is 01:10:10 this is for the satisfaction of myself, but also of the listeners who are extremely skeptical of Israel, that you're saying that you know these people firsthand, you know the people, the soldiers. You know what they say when no one's listening. I'm sure you hear stuff that borders on race or hate, whatever it is, because that's what it is. I mean, you have bad people everywhere,
Starting point is 01:10:36 but that's a minority of the population that the majority rejects. But you don't think it's possible that Israel would, DAFCA, it's possible that israel would dafka uh have a intent to to to um starve the palestinians or that it could have been their intention not and you know those bad individuals that say bad things we can't say that that's all israelis the same way you wouldn't want to say that a terrorist is all muslims or all arabs or all palestinians right there are bad individuals and we're not going to use a few group of individuals
Starting point is 01:11:05 to define the majority. So are there bad individuals that the society rejects and that if they do something wrong and punished within Israeli law? Yes, those are individuals. That's not the Israeli army. That's not the Israeli government and that's not the Israeli people.
Starting point is 01:11:17 Now for the Israeli government, like I've said before, they have failed to basically allow the situation to exist that eventually blew up on October 7th. They've done nothing to change. But it's not from a sinister place. It's from understanding how the political system works. In Israel, you have a parliamentary system. It's not you get elected and you have four years and you do what you want.
Starting point is 01:11:35 You have 120 seats. In order to get to power, you have to have a majority, which is at least 61. Now, no party has 61 seats. You have a party with 10 seats, with 20 seats, with five seats. And so they have to create a coalition where they go to all these different parties, say, hey, party with 10 seats. I have 20. If you give me this, I'll give you that. Give me your 20 seats. And at the end of the day, they end up having maybe 63, 64, 65, a small majority, which then allows the smaller parties with maybe five seats to say, hey, Israeli government,
Starting point is 01:12:03 if you don't do this for me now, I'm pulling my seats and the next day you can have an election. Or one seat. We have in the United States Senate, which is a microcosm of that, where when it's 50-50, one senator can dictate the whole policy. Okay, but we don't have checks and balances. No, no, I'm saying, but just within the Senate alone. Exactly.
Starting point is 01:12:19 One seat can change everything, which forces politicians to think only on the short term. They cannot think on the long term. It's not just the player that's a problem. And Bibi, I don't agree with Bibi at all, but it's also the system that exists that forces politicians to be there to think only on the short term and also to force for division. People who vote for the right in Israel, they care about security, economy, and national identity. People who vote for the left care about environment, about human rights, about pollution.
Starting point is 01:12:45 Who said those things contradict? Who said that those things are not just extensions of one truth and that we're being manipulated to even create a left and a right to begin with? So the political system that is built is built for division and for short-term thinking. And because of this system, even a politician that would want to do something
Starting point is 01:13:01 cannot think long-term and is just focused on, I have to keep the status quo and I have to keep the status quo, and I have to just worry about myself getting re-elected. And that is a part of the problem that people need to understand, the nuances behind why we're in this situation. Because if we don't talk about the source and we just deal with the symptoms, you're going to see the symptoms reoccurring. Can I just jump back to what Noam was saying? Is that part of the Israeli strategy to have the Palestinians rise up against Hamas, or they've sort of given up on that possibility? No, I don't think that the Palestinians can rise up against Hamas.
Starting point is 01:13:31 Hamas does not even allow freedom of speech. I have Palestinians that I've worked with in Gaza that did Zoom calls with Israelis for Israelis to hear about their experiences, for them to build relations. And that Palestinian ended up six months disappearing and was sitting in a Hamas prison for just doing a Zoom with Israelis. I have Palestinians that I work with in the West Bank, Judea and Samaria, that we build relations between each other, educate each other's populations. And when I make videos with them, I have to blur their faces and change their voices to protect their identity or else they disappear. And so a lot of these Palestinians that I work with, they say, look, we would like to be voices of our people and help people have different ideas than just you need to hate Israel. But until you defend us and give us freedom of speech, we can't do that. So Palestinians are trapped by this reality.
Starting point is 01:14:13 And this is the power dynamics where they're a lot less powerful than we are. And so this is something that, again, I talk about how Israel has the power, thus the responsibility to first create freedom of speech across the land. Once you create freedom of speech, you create an ability for new ideas to exist, new leaders to truly represent their population. And then Israel needs to change the relationship that it has with Palestinians. Instead of maintaining the control, it should be liberating them. It should be investing in their infrastructure, in their education, in their roads, in their job opportunities, in their sewage systems. If the experience of Israel was one that was liberating and giving you everything that you need and respecting you and honoring you,
Starting point is 01:14:51 then it wouldn't be a problem anymore. And what Hamas does is it looks at a situation where people are suffering, which again, isn't created because Israel wanted to. This is a consequence of war that the British even implanted these ideas onto us that we need to hate each other. And the consequences of that suffering,
Starting point is 01:15:04 they're coming and manipulating that suffering and telling them, if you want a better reality, you must attack Israel. And that's what we see happening. Have you ever considered going into politics in Israel? Absolutely not. How come? Because the system is what's broken.
Starting point is 01:15:18 If I were to enter the system, I'd have to choose the right or the left. I'd have to think on short terms of how to maintain power. I'd have to make dirty deals behind closed doors. So if there were an evolution of a new system that would exist, that would actually be just and fitting for all peoples in this land, Israelis and Palestinians included, and for some reason my involvement would help, then yes.
Starting point is 01:15:38 But right now, if I were to get involved, I would lose any credibility and any ability I would have to make a difference. So I believe more in grassroots change. I don't have faith in the Israeli government. I do not have faith, definitely not in the Palestinian Authority or Hamas. So my faith is in the people. And my message is to educate the populations for us to rise up and change things. And I grew up in the United States. I wasn't born here. I don't live here, but I grew up here. And you learn about the civil rights. You were born in France? I was born in France. That's why I asked him if he spoke French. Yeah. But growing up here, obviously we learned about the civil rights we're born in france i was born in france that's why i asked him if he spoke french yeah um but growing up here obviously we learned about the civil rights movement and we learned
Starting point is 01:16:07 that it was not a top-down approach it was not politicians who said oh i've changed my mind i think people of color should have equal rights it was a grassroots effort where black people fought for the rights bled sweat and many of them died in order to shift the pop culture conditioned society into recognizing that racism was bad and making eventually that younger generation replace those in positions of power and create enough of a pressure for the politicians conditioned society into recognizing that racism was bad and making eventually that younger generation replace those in positions of power and create enough of a pressure for the politicians that were currently in power to change their policies.
Starting point is 01:16:31 That's how the change came, from the bottom up. So right now, given the conditions, given the situation, I only see a bottom-up change. But that's an interesting point and something I've thought about and other people have commented on in the past, which is, wouldn't it be wise if the Palestinians were to take a page from the civil rights movement in terms of embracing non-violence, embracing peaceful protests, and embracing
Starting point is 01:16:57 preaching an ideology of brotherly love, to sound corny, wouldn't that go a long way to melting the heart of a understandably very skeptical Israeli public that lived through the second intifada at a time when they were really disposed to take chances? Yes and no. At the same time, the reason for why Palestinians are using terrorism is because terrorism is a form of anti-colonialism. And so they've been sold this idea. They use terrorism within countries that have never, I mean, and the Intifada means the shaking off. What are you shaking off? You're shaking off the European colonial rule of the Jews, and they think the Jews are European colonialists, which we're not. We're the indigenous population. You dig in the land and you find our history. I don't agree. I mean, I agree that that's, but the tactic of terrorism... I'm not saying that the tactic of terrorism is always used as
Starting point is 01:18:01 anti-colonial means. I'm saying the reason for why Palestinians are using terrorism is in their minds. This is a form of anti-colonial. Their goal is an anti-colonial goal. We're going to basically terrorize them until they leave. We're going to shake them off. That's what the intifada means. Do they actually think that they're going to leave? They actually think that.
Starting point is 01:18:15 Leave and go where? They think that all the Jews are from Europe, which we're not. Some Jews had an experience in Europe. But they know half of them are not from Europe. But this is what they believe. Even Abbas has said it. Listen, this is what they believe. Okay, so says it. Listen, this is what they believe. Okay, so let's just focus on that because it's a fascinating thing.
Starting point is 01:18:28 Because when you tell me this is what they believe, and it's demonstrably utter fantasy. Like saying that Israel wanted to starve people as well. Well, no. Israel wanted to starve people can't be... You can contemplate it. That's the first I'm hearing that, and it's crazy to me. You can contemplate that.
Starting point is 01:18:47 I mean, you can contemplate other things, too. No, I'm saying, like, but you can't say that red building over there is white. You can't, for a. If you don't see the red building, you can. But, well, I'm saying, how is it that a large population, millions of people, who know that half the Jews, they don't look European, they know exactly where they came from, they know they speak Arabic, they know they listen to Arabic music, they know that these, I mean, you go to Israel, half the Jews are listening to Arabic music,
Starting point is 01:19:18 right? How can, what kind of delusion, it's profound what you're saying and depressing. What kind of mass brainwashing are you describing that despite what's right in front of their eyes, they say, no, no, they're all Europeans, but they're not. But I say they are. If you would tell them, what about the Yemenite Jews and the Moroccan Jews and the Syrian Jews and the Ethiopian Jews, they would tell them, well, the majority here are European colonizers who have no connection to this land, and you guys are a bunch of Arabs who have this Judaism as well, and you decided to merge with them and benefit off of our exploitation. That's what they would tell you.
Starting point is 01:19:53 But this is crazy talk. It is crazy talk, which is why we need to go to the root and to change the humanization that both people see and to understand one another. Israelis don't understand Palestinians. The civil rights movement never had crazy talk to do. Well, let me tell you this. Did you know that Palestinians, a large percentage of them,
Starting point is 01:20:07 actually descend from Jews? I've heard that. I don't know it. Yeah. So genetically, from all the tests that have been done, 30 to 60% of Palestinians descend from Jewish origins. If you go to communities like Akko, Jaffa, Yatta, Haifa, Safed, Hebron, Shrem slash Nablus, Bet Lechem, Bet El, Nazareth, all these places that are ancient Jewish cities, right? Where some of them have mixed places where you have Jews and Arabs and some of them it's only Palestinian. Those Palestinians that are living there,
Starting point is 01:20:37 80 to 90% of their ancestry genetically is Jewish. So when we break down these things that most people don't know about, and I'm happy you did because most Jews don't, all of a sudden we start seeing this thing a little bit differently right Palestinians aren't the descendants of these foreign Arab invaders who've come and taken away our land we don't have to see them as our enemies we can see them as our family and Jews aren't a bunch of foreign white Europeans who came to call we see each other as our family the problem when you use an anti-colonial tactic like terrorism used in that sense against the indigenous population who happens to be a hundred times stronger is you're going to get a
Starting point is 01:21:08 hundred times stronger response and the Jewish people will never leave. So we're using strategies that don't actually help us move forward, which is why before we talk about policies, we need to talk about shifting the culture, bringing the right information, empowering the right individuals to stand up, to take a role for their people. And I'm not talking about empowering the Jews who just side with their oppressors and, you know, are tokens for the anti-Israel, anti-Jewish movement. And I'm not talking about Palestinians who, let's say, are brought by different Jewish organizations and all they have to do is criticize Palestinians and never talk about their Palestinian struggles. I'm not talking about bringing tokens to the table. I'm talking about being true representatives of the local populations who
Starting point is 01:21:44 can see the other as a human being, who realize that there is no future without the other, and us be the people who start bringing up ideas that can inspire the population to eventually forcing the governments and the policies to change. All right. I don't want to keep you much longer because you've been very generous with your time. Ben Gavir and Smotrich this is brought up all the time by people obviously who have the most cursory knowledge of Israeli politics or whatever it is but I don't even feel confident that I understand how
Starting point is 01:22:14 important or unimportant they are what can you tell us about those guys? They are a part of the Knesset they're very loud so a lot of people hear what they have to say because they say things that are, in my opinion, extremely vulgar. They do talk about Israeli security,
Starting point is 01:22:30 which obviously everyone would agree with, but they also speak in a language that they're very anti-Arab, very anti-Palestinian. They're racist. I would say so. Absolutely. Yes.
Starting point is 01:22:38 Okay. Continue. And I think that their energy and the way that they engage and the way that they operate and the ideas that they bring are originally maybe from a place of trauma where they feel so hurt
Starting point is 01:22:48 and they see Palestinians as their enemies, so they're reacting that way. But in effect, what it's doing, it's alienating more Palestinians. So I think what they're doing is actually horrible and extremely harmful. And I'm against these individuals, even though on issues of like,
Starting point is 01:23:00 should Jews live in this land? They would agree with that. I would agree with, just because there's some sort of commonality between an idea over there, doesn't mean that I think these individuals should be- If they could, would they be happy to see the Palestinians starving?
Starting point is 01:23:13 No, I don't think that they would want to see pain, but I think they would be happy to see all the Palestinians removed from the land. Removed from the land. Yes, and that would hurt me. I'm actually for the right of return for Palestinians. But you would not, you would defend them to the extent that you don't think they,
Starting point is 01:23:32 even they, would be in favor of a policy of starvation. Well, I'm not here to attack people. I'm here to be honest. Now, even though I- But because you seem so honest, I really want to know what you think about it. I don't like them as individuals. I don't like the ideas that they spread. But I would definitely not make the leap to make such a claim that they would want to see other human beings starve. I don't think that's the case at all. No. Okay. Have they said things like that? Because that is, many people have
Starting point is 01:23:56 short-circuited their, you know, they say, well, these guys are racist. So therefore they, you know, and they have a hold on Netanyahu. So they, you know, they put this whole conspiracy thing. It is true that they have a hold on Netanyahu. So, you know, they put this whole conspiracy thing. It is true that they have a hold on Netanyahu. So, therefore, of course, what many people don't know, it's just worth always saying, because people, even smart people seem to forget it, is that the Israeli prime minister is not commander in chief. There's a war cabinet. And I spoke to somebody very important in Israel who told, who hates Netanyahu, who told me that that war cabinet thing is not just a front. It is actually Netanyahu is one of three votes.
Starting point is 01:24:34 And then there's observers and he does not have his way. So any policy that went there. And of course, one of the, I think he's an observer, Eisenkot, he lost his son, which is very moving to me. You know, in America during Vietnam, it was typical that the people who were armchair warriors, the elites who were behind the policies, their kids found a way not to go to the army at all. Or if they were in the army, they weren't exactly in risky situations. But in Israel, that seems not to be the case. It's not the case. Right, which gives a credibility to the notion that the Israelis,
Starting point is 01:25:17 doesn't mean it's correct or wise, that when they think they have to do this, that they really think they have to do it, because they're ready to pay for it with the blood of their children, which is a very profound thing. So if there was an easier way to do it, they would do it. It speaks for itself if you're ready to risk the life of your child. It's kind of amazing that one of the most important Israelis in this decision-making process
Starting point is 01:25:47 loses his son. And this isn't even barely, not little in common knowledge, it's barely known by the American public who's outraged at Israel's behavior. It's a very profound fact, at least to me, I don't know. Yeah, I think if most Palestinians
Starting point is 01:26:01 really understood, and most Israelis understood Palestinians as well, that we're in this for the long run. We're not here to gain something from a foreign piece of land, like going to Vietnam and dealing with fighting communism because of a Russian influence. This is not what's going on. We're both fighting for a land that we feel eternally connected to,
Starting point is 01:26:19 that is connected to our hearts, that belongs to our ancestors, and that belongs to our descendants. And if we understood that we both come from that place, there's actually a lot of respect to be found there. You know, when I see a Palestinian with what I call the map of Israel, what they call the map of Palestine necklace, originally I was seeing it as, wait, you're putting your flag on top of my land, you're trying to take something away from me. And many of them, if they see me with that map with the flag of Israel, they would think that as well. But over time, I realized, I'm like, wait a minute, we're from that same land. We're connecting to that same piece of land.
Starting point is 01:26:47 That's a point of unity. The fact that you identify with these colors or that colors, I don't expect you to identify with a Jewish star. That's fine that you can identify with something else. You shouldn't have a problem with me identifying as a Jewish star if I can respect you. You know, I have three younger brothers. One of the brothers is named Mikael. Let's say I was wearing a map of Israel necklace and he's wearing a Map of Israel necklace and his name says Mikael on it and my name says Rudy. Would I feel attacked that his name says Mikael? No, because that's just his name
Starting point is 01:27:12 on the same thing that we connect to. So I think we need to shift the way we view the entire situation and each other. And that is the first step to eventually shifting the pop culture to putting the policies to change. All right. Listen, you're a very interesting guy. I'd like to get to know you better.
Starting point is 01:27:26 Some of what you say sounds idealistic to me. Those are the people who change history. That's what I was going to say. People who are idealistic are not always wrong. And as you say, just because the idealists are the ones who change history doesn't mean that every idealist is not, you know, it's a small subset who are.
Starting point is 01:27:49 I love this very Jewish conversation. Yeah, but listen, more power to you. And I hope that people who hear you will take from what you're saying, what I'm taking from it, which is real sincerity, because real sincerity is very powerful because there's so much suspicion.
Starting point is 01:28:11 It's very difficult for people to accept what they don't believe and have trouble believing. And of course, everything they see, the death just confirms, this confirmation by this confirms what they already think. So from time to time, if you speak to somebody who you can connect with and who you who knows and is sincere but
Starting point is 01:28:32 tells you something other than what you believe sometimes you can reach people and that's vice versa right yeah so you probably have stories of of being reached by certain Arabic people in your life that moved you. So anyway, so I think it's a great conversation and thank you very much for coming. Anything else you want to say before we sign off and be my guest? Thank you for having me. It's important to have more of these conversations.
Starting point is 01:28:59 I think there's a lot of lack of nuance today, a lack of being able to connect and a lot of polarization. So I'm glad that your platform is willing to bring individuals who are bringing light to a time where there's a lot of darkness. All right. Podcast at ComedySeller.com. Good night, everybody.

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