The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Black Women and Comedy

Episode Date: March 16, 2019

Chloé Hilliard, Keith Robinson and Sean McCarthy

You're listening to The Comedy Cellar, live from the table, on the Riotcast Network, riotcast.com. Good evening, everybody. Welcome to the Comedy Cellar Show here on Sirius XM, Channel 99, the comedy channel. We're here at the back table of the world's famous comedy cellar. My name is Noam Dorman. I'm the owner. Next to me, as always, is Mr. Dan Natterman. Hola. That's all you got?

Okay. Well, I'm going to let you finish the intros, then I may or may not have moreatterman. Hola. That's all you got? Okay. Well, I'm going to let you finish the intros, then I may or may not have more to say. Okay, and our guest tonight, Sean McCarthy, is comedy critic

for Decider.com and curates. You know, this is a word that I probably never heard the first 40 years of my life, and now it's like everything you want to make... Conflate is like that.

Conflate, curate, trope. And there's all sorts of words. I don't curate tropes. We used to say stereotypes. It's like, you know, a bunch of antics mixed in. Now it's tropes. Okay. Curates the comedy listings for the New York Times.

He runs his own website, The Comics Comic, and has a podcast called The Comics Comic Presents Last Things First. Okay. And Chloe Hilliard is a New York City-based stand-up comedian. She may be seen performing regularly at the Comedy Cellar. Listen, Perrielle, our producer, you can't

have one person with a huge introduction. I made that as short as possible. It makes him seem so esteemed. Well, we can add on the fly to Chloe's biography. Yes. I would say she's a dynamic ball of energy on stage.

Thank you. Keeps the audience guessing. Yes. And was recently featured, along with me, Dan Aderman, at Aruba Rays Comedy Club in Aruba Dutch West Indies. And she has a book coming out. I do have a book coming out. I have a book coming out in September, September 24th.

You can pre-order it now called Fuck Your Diet. Oh, that shouldn't have made the introduction. Well, it just made this. Isn't that more important? Much better to know that she can be seen at the comedy zone. Can I just ask Chloe very briefly how Chloe and I overlapped in Aruba just one day. We worked together down there. I just was curious how the rest of your time went with Aruba Rig.

It was great. Did he come on to you? No, no, no, no. What's wrong with you? I don't think, you know what it is? I think my height makes people a little bit leery about approaching me. Because I'm an Amazon, I'm 6'1". That wouldn't stop me if I were Aruba.

Go ahead, go ahead. Yeah, Jewish men love me. They do. Go ahead, go ahead. You're a father. This has Jewish men love me. They do. Go ahead. You're a father. This has started off swimmingly. You're a husband and a father. I have no problem with a taller girl myself as a general matter,

though I would, generally speaking, avoid entanglements with comedy-seller comedians. That's true. Also, my mom was there, so I think he was probably. I'm in favor of consent. Yeah, that's true. Also, my mom was there, so I think he was probably. I'm in favor of consent. Yeah, that's true. Okay, so you had fun at Aruba? I did. We both have tans.

Dan and I both have wonderful suntan. Do I have a tan? Yes. You're nice. You're an olive color. All right. Was it good audiences there? Yes.

Sold out shows. Most of the time I was there, I was there for four nights. So three out of the four nights were sold out. Yeah. There must be some sort of French or Latin phrase for the feeling of disappointment I get when you tell me that my friend Ray Allen's show was sold out. I don't know what that is. But it's a very human thing that I think most people won't admit to. Are you upset?

Comedians feel it all the time when you find out somebody you know gets a show. You got an SNL. It's horrific. Yeah, but if he was not your out somebody you don't get gets a show. You got an SNL, it's horrific. Yeah, but if he was not your friend, you wouldn't feel that way? I don't know.

I don't know. I'm just being honest about a certain pang. No, both things, of course I'm happy for him that his thing is doing well, but at the same time, You wish he would fail.

I wish he would fall flat on his face. You can open up a room in Aruba and get you the nice air tank crowd. There's a lot of walkers, a lot of wheelchairs. No, no. We're spaying the comedy seller footprint.

You have pangs of thoughts that you're not proud of. And the better angel of your nature, as they say, knows to suppress that. So yes, of course, I'm happy Ray did well. If I could push a button, if I could push a button and no one would know,

and it would mean that Ray would either, two buttons, the button he could do well, he wouldn't do well, I would press the one that he does well. Yeah. Maybe. Nevertheless, there would be a certain pleasure out of seeing that arrogant prick get a full fight.

Okay. Well, when Ray's back in town, I'll let him defend that allegation of being an arrogant prick. No. I'm kidding. He's not an arrogant prick. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I just resent him being a producer on my show.

Okay. By the way, is that show We Don't Know Yet, the Comedy Cellar? We do not know if the Comedy Cellar. This week at the Comedy Cellar on Comedy Central. Is that my attorney, Andrew Crabtree? Andrew, you're too late. We're starting... Yes, we don't know if Comedy Central picked it up yet.

But we haven't been told no. What does your spider sense tell you? Listen, this is what I think. I think that smart people don't call things they put probabilities. I'm saying 55-45't call things they put probabilities. I'm saying 55-45 that we will be picked up. So you're ever so lightly optimistic.

Ever so slightly optimistic. I think there's a definite need for it. The wonderful thing about that show is it allowed a lot of us to flex our comedic expertise on culture and political things that a lot of people aren't addressing. You know, I feel like once, you know, the election turned out the way it was,

everybody was like, I don't want to deal with any politics at all. I want, you know, I found this thing like once he first got elected or when he was on the election cycle, Hollywood, everybody was like, we need a sketch comedy show. We need sketch comedy show. And so I realized that whenever like the country's in political turmoil, that's when entertainment becomes simple stupid. So when you look at Vietnam War, you had Laugh-N-Hot, all of these Smothers Brothers. Now everybody's like, we need more.

My manager was like, everybody wants a sketch comedy show today. And I was like, wow, because the world is shit and you want to look at TV and just dumb out for 45 minutes. Can I tell you something? It is related to the Ray Allen thing in some way. Almost everything I've ever done, including this show, has been received with total negativity from everybody around me. You mean the Comedy Central show was received negatively? Yeah, even going back to the days where I started the Cafe Y,

it was just like, oh, it's never going to work, you can't do this, you can't do that. But this Comedy Central show, when I was walking around telling comedians about my idea for a weekly show, they were all just like poo-pooing it. I don't know if anybody would want to do it. Like just every reason under the sun that they could wash it with negativity. As soon as it was on the air,

they were sabotaging each other to get on this show listen from a comic point of view once we started taping this place was filled with like everybody just popping in

oh I just want to come see the show oh there's no seats left at the table for us the reserve comics it was it was you could feel

it was palpable you felt in an air people were like how did you get on I need to get on what I need to do what jokes did you get what subjects did you get

I need to write about these things and I I was pitching this to Comedy Central I had to go in there and they were like, how did you get on? I need to get on. What do I need to do? What jokes did you get? What subjects did you get? I need to write about these things. And I was pitching this to Comedy Central. I had to go in there and they were like, well, will the comedians want to do it? And I had to lie and say, yeah, yeah, I spoke to them. They were all ready to do it. But I didn't feel like I was lying because I wasn't trying to deceive Comedy Central. I just knew

comedians. I knew like, oh, hey, you want to be on TV? No, no, I don't want to be on TV. Well, how about for $1,200? No, I still don't want to do it. It just didn't make any sense to me. We paid out $500,000 to comedians in that short period of time. Thank you. I appreciate it. And the comedians don't burn any material because it's all

topical. Well, not only do they not burn any material, but even if they burn a little material, you know what? You can burn a little material and never feel it. Just because there's one joke here that was also here nobody cares well I can't speak for the other comics

but I don't recall ever saying a negative word about the show to you when you first pitched it to me I said yeah it's a fine idea I mean I I don't know who these other comics were

that were poo pooing they were negative about the show they were negative about negative about Vegas they were negative about the Village Underground it's just like everything

there's a lesson in life there that you can't you can't be blindly optimistic about something. It has to be based on thinking things through. But if you think things through, you can't let negativity daunt you. So where do you get your ideas from? They just come to me, Chloe. But you know what I'm saying? Because it's hard to continue something when people are always poo-pooing you.

Well, I can tell you exactly where the idea for this Comedy Central show came. I don't know if it's interesting to people at home, but I'll tell you. I remember it. I was yet again looking through the Fios TV guide and seeing people who I knew personally who had hour specials on cable TV and finding that I couldn't get through more than five or ten minutes of specials. People I knew. And I said, this is something wrong here.

And I said to myself, what would I watch? And I said, what I would watch is these little bits of funny that are kind of spontaneous or attached to the week's news. I would watch that. That would interest me. And so I just went into the meeting, and I said, listen, I have an idea. We tape every show and then call 25 minutes

of whatever's going on that week. And they're like, yeah, okay. It was immediately bought, like that. So that's where the idea came from. And listen, a lot of ideas, I think, come from, I'm stretching the word, but necessity in every aspect. Like, how did a potato peeler come about? Probably the guy trying to figure out, like, how do I peel these potatoes?

All right. Dan put some bold-type headlines here. No festival for black women. What does that mean? Well, Sean McCarthy, you know, in his comics comic blog. Sean is a left winger from Princeton. Go ahead. Did you go to Princeton, Sean?

I like that he pitched it. 200 grand. I like that he pitched it as a left winger from Princeton because that's kind of an outlier in itself. Sean set out to do the impossible. He set out to make a living writing about comedy. Yes. I don't know. So thank you for having me on Sirius XM Satellite Radio.

I don't know how it's going financially. But in any case, he wrote an article recently. I wasn't the first one to notice this. I only wrote because I saw other people noticing this. Well, whatever. You were the first one I saw. Apparently there's a Laughing Skull Comedy Festival in Georgia, in Atlanta, right? Correct. And there's a Laughing Skull Comedy Festival in Georgia, in Atlanta, right? Correct.

And there's no black women in it. There are black comics and there are women comics. There are no black women comics in the festival. Yes, not even Madea. Sean was outraged by this and felt the need to put pen to paper and express his displeasure. Is that accurate to say? Other people, I will clarify your statement. Other people were outraged,

and it gave me a moment to think about festivals and contests and how they work. Okay, so just for the listener, first of all, how does one go about trying to get in this festival? They would submit a video in money. How much money? I believe it depended on how early they submitted, so it could be between $25 and $50. they would submit a video in money. How much money? I believe it depended on how early they submitted. So it could be between $25 and $50.

So a de minimis amount of money, basically. For someone of your income level, yes. No, not for someone of my income level. For someone of a pretty low income, $25? I think the caliber of comedians who would submit maybe not even be a full-time comic. So you think about somebody who might be a full-time comic. So you think about somebody who might have a part-time job. Okay, but the Laughing Skull

is a... This is car fare money. I mean, I'm not... Listen, if someone doesn't have $25, I'm not heartless about that. Yeah. But I'm saying,

I know tons of comics and $25 is within their reach, especially for something that they... I mean, they go to movies at $25. They take... They go... They eat in restaurants... I mean, they go to movies at $25. They eat in restaurants.

I mean, are these people over a hot plate boiling rice? I mean, $25 is not a prohibitive amount of money. Not for one contest, but with... For the people we're talking about. With the people we're talking about, this is a contest for us up-and-comers. Are you saying that the $25 is the reason that people didn't... No, okay, go ahead.

No. So then you agree with me. I agree with you if you're just applying to that. But the people who apply to this also end up having to apply to every festival they want to get into because they're not named comedians. Okay, the festivals are a business. But that's the case for everything, right? That's the case for applying to schools, too. Right.

It's the case for going to eat. The Montreal Comedy Festival, I don't believe charges any money To be considered for that Nor did the HBO Aspen Festival That I did many years ago Nor did the Moon Tower Festival in Austin But you know The best festivals are curated

For lack of an older word That you know They're not even taking submissions They're going out and choosing people We're just going to take whoever wants to be in it Well by the way if it was free that you know. They're not even taking submissions. No. They're going out and choosing people. They go out and choose people. Right. So this vessel says, listen, we're going to... We're just going to take whoever wants to be in it.

Well, by the way, if it was free, they would be buried in videotapes. So I think that's another reason. You can't be free. Not everyone would do that. But apparently there's some...

And there was some sort of blind grading system? No, not blind. It was just... They watched the videos? They had a panel that viewed the videos and then selected the 60 that they liked.

But they put numbers on it. It didn't go from one person to another. There were two. There was some way that you couldn't... I thought there was something... They picked 60 people and then they posted the photos and names of the 60 people who got in. And that was what allowed comedians to look at it for face value and go, how? 60 out of how many?

I believe they said 1,000. And how many of those applicants were black women? They said 10. 10 people. So what's the controversy? That it's in Atlanta and they don't have a woman of color. But they only got 10 submissions. Well, it's not representative.

Neither is the NBA. They got 10 submissions. Well, I guess the question is, why did they... What should they have done differently? Why did they only get 10 submissions from black women? That's not their fault. No, but the part of it is... Maybe it is their fault. It is a part of their fault. They're not obligated.

They're not obligated to do it. They've been around 10 years. Maybe they're doing something that's giving comedians the idea that they don't want to be a part of this. I think Khloe is the only black woman right now in the Olive Tree. Am I doing something wrong? Do I have to go out and seek customers? What the hell? What are we talking about here?

Have you been to a Billy Joel concert? Maybe he's not doing something right. No, that's not the same. There's like two black people at a Billy Joel concert. That's not the same. It's the same thing. Somebody has a contest. If you're going to create a platform and you're saying that you're going to be accessible to all people to consider doing this thing, then there are certain communities that you have to do a little bit more outreach.

That doesn't mean you invite them exclusively, but you have to have somebody on your board who represents that diversity spectrum so that they can be like, listen, I'm here. You should feel comfortable coming here and applying. I think that's a part of the things that people don't realize is that when you're- How come black men apply? How come black men made it?

There's some special, finite, very thinly sliced thing that's excluded. There's some thinly sliced way of excluding black women so they never even hear about it. It's not about being excluded.

It's not about being, it's about feeling welcome. Black men can navigate the comedy world better than black women because black men are able to identify with other men, with other white men. Then you have to think about women bookers who are

attracted to black male comedians who will be like, yeah, come do my show. That happens. Don't call out Esty in front of me. Chloe, can I ask you, as a black woman, do you personally feel that there's some obstacle in terms of you

being involved in the club? So you wouldn't submit your video to that comedy festival because you thought, has there never been any black women in the comedy festival? you wouldn't submit your video to that comedy festival because you thought there's never been any black women in the comedy festival? No, there have been before. Is it just possible that this year it turned out that way?

You're talking about... Black people are 12% of the population. Black women are 6% of the population. In a situation... Comedy population? The of the population. In a situation... Comedy population? Of the country's population. Probably less of the comedy population,

judging by what I see. Just by chance, it's not crazy to think that 6 out of 100, you could have 300 with 0. That's less odds, I'm guessing, than rolling double 6s. I mean, this is...

There's not a prima facie case of anything. Would you suggest, Chloe, that there was no overt racism going on? Would you agree that there was likely no overt racism going on with the comedy festival? I don't think that there's overt racism. But what it is is that people, especially being a black woman, if people don't feel like they can relate to you, they will dismiss everything that you say, whether it's funny or not. Because they don't relate to you.

And I think that's a hard thing that we have to deal with that people don't realize. So, even if those ten women were funny and they could have been on Def Jam and got standing ovations, if you have a panel of people who don't identify with those women in their backstory, they're going to be like, oh, they were funny, but I don't really get the joke about that. You know, like it becomes a, not an ethical thing, but a cultural divide that happens

a lot when you are a black woman or a person of color. But I think especially when you're a black woman. But do you feel on stage that the audience here at the Comedy Cellar, it's no secret, is mostly Caucasian. Do you feel there's a disconnect between your act and their experience? Or they seem to receive you quite well. I mean, there are some people who definitely receive me and some people who don't. But I think the thing is that when people come here, they know, which is what the festival should also embody, is that when they come in, they know that everybody that what the festival should also embody, is that when they come here, they know that everybody that hits the stage

is a quality, top-notch comedian. And even if they don't identify with their ideology, they will still respect the craftsmanship. And I feel like if you're a festival, you should at least say, this is our base level of talent here, and we need to cultivate this level of talent, whether we relate to this person or not. Yeah, but I kind of agree with that.

If you told me that there were 50 different black female applicants and none got chosen, I'd say, well, maybe they should look at how they're judging it in some way, maybe. But when you have 10 out of 1,000 or more than 1,000, you're talking about a tiny, the odds are very strong that it's going to be zero in the final cut. No, that's fair, but then now if they got backlash, I feel like they should say, okay, now

we're going to make sure that we have a woman of color on the board for the judges, or we're going to put up... But it wasn't a matter of judging. We had only like ten applicants. Well, then you should do more outreach. You're free in Atlanta. No, that's right. I don't agree with that. I'm saying like advertise where black comedians are. But black men heard about it, so they must have been advertising where black comedians are. But black men heard

about it, so they must have been advertising where black comedians were. Yeah, but black men can navigate in white spaces more easily than black women. But they heard about it because the flyers were in the men's room. But also, I think racism doesn't need to be... We're really stretching ourselves into a pretzel here. I don't think that racism needs

to be overt. It's true. So who's the racist in this story? I'm not calling anybody a racist. Why are we talking about racism, then? Because I'm... Because Dan brought it up as a topic. Because I'm acknowledging that I think that racism is systemic and institutionalized.

And I think that you have to acknowledge that if you have a festival or a comedy show in Atlanta, which is a huge black population, you should go out of your way to make it representative. No, no, no, no. Okay. If I, if I, let me

tell you something. I'm going to tell you why I say no. It's not because, God forbid, I, I'm not, um, I want to see any race or creed not able to achieve what they want to achieve. I'm saying if I go into a project, a comedy festival, that is my project. I'm not a government.

I'm not, I mean, it's my individual project. And I advertise on Facebook. I mean, it's very difficult in this day and age. It's not like it used to be. It's very difficult in this day and age to advertise to just one race. There aren't that many places anymore where just one race sees something. And not only that, there's a grapevine.

Comedians without advertising spread the word. If we were doing a comedy festival here, I could tell ten people, and in a month, every single person would know the comedy show was doing a contest. Everybody. You have no evidence that the female black comics

didn't know about it. I'll go separate. I think it's very unlikely that they didn't know about it. Maybe they didn't feel comfortable. Isn't that important? Except that in previous years, they did.

I don't know what previous years were. Listen, it's all possible. What I'm objecting to is the conclusion of it without any basis in fact. And then the person who did the festival is now tarred in some way.

You didn't do. You're part of the problem. You're part of the system of racism. He's like, he could just be a perfectly nice guy or gal. Who said that? Took some Facebook ads. But I don't feel again, I don't have

any black customers in the restaurant right now. Do I have to do outreach? I don't know. But eating in your restaurant isn't a stepping stool to having a career in show business. Stepping stone to having a career in show business. Being in the contest

is a way to get in front of TV viewers. But I'm saying when you go into a business or whatever it is, or open a comedy club, I'm not taking the world on my shoulder. I have moral obligations not to take affirmative steps to hurt people or treat them immorally. If I knowingly try to avoid getting black, if I say I don't want black comedians or any of these things, they're very clear, yes. That's maybe even criminal as far as I'm concerned.

Like your menu is white-centered. But if I simply just have a comedy club, and I, in good faith, hire the best comics, and they break down, just like I talk about the NBA, just like the NBA hires the best basketball player, and it doesn't break down according to how Sean McCarthy thinks it ought to. Now I'm held accountable without any basis in fact that I've done anything wrong. Well, here's what I wrote.

I wrote, I didn't write that I had outrage. I wrote that if I had a comedy contest, if I were running my own, I don't look at it as a businessman. You're talking about like, it's who submits the money. It is a business. Would you call it shaman-y? But I look at it. But it is a business. That's talking about, like, it's who submits the money. It is a business. Would you call it shaman-y? But I look at it... But it is a business. That's why they do it. But if I were

running one, I would want to have the best talent available. Not just the best talent that gave me 30 bucks. I agree with that. So, if I know there are people and they didn't apply, I would reach out to them and go, hey, you should be in my contest. I know you haven't done it already. But you don't even know

that they haven't done that. I do know that there are at least two black women, one of whom is from Atlanta, but they both live in New York and they both have TV credits and they haven't ever been able to get into this contest. Why? Okay, now let me tell you about this. I don't know why.

Let me tell you this TV credit thing. It's meaningless. Do you really think that... Tell that to all the comedians who want to be on the show. Do you think that a TV credit has anything to do with how well people do on stage here? Not how well you do on stage. It's about how you get on the stage. I myself am in a situation where I'm trying to get booked in clubs around the country,

and I have TV credits, and they're like, yeah, maybe not. But then, and legit, my manager can present to them a white guy who has less time than me, less credits, and they'll be like, yeah, we'll give him a shot. Because when you are a woman of color, and when you are a black woman specifically, you have to be above and beyond. You just can't be able to get a hundred people in a room. They want you to sell out every single night and get bonuses. They don't want to take

any chances on black women in this business, unless you're Tiffany Haddish. Tiffany Haddish has been doing this since she was 17, but now everybody thinks she's an overnight star okay first of all I don't I'm sensitive to what you're saying and I don't want anybody listening to think that I don't take what you just said

seriously what I'm saying is that to then assume because of what this or that person might do which is improper, that that's what's going on in this festival. I'm telling you that I see no relationship

between TV credits and anything that matters to me in terms of as a comedy club owner. I'm not impressed with TV credits, and I've seen plenty of people with a lot of TV credits bomb. And the festival sounds like they judge them based on these videos. Better that they don't even, they shouldn't even want to know whether they have TV credits or not. And the acts that they found the funniest are the ones they chose for the festival. And they put the word out in a racially neutral way.

And it would be much nicer, yeah, we'd all feel better about it if it broke down this year in a less harsh way. But it didn't in previous years. And the guy who's in charge of it, or the woman who's in charge of it, I have no idea, is now kind of becoming slimed. Well, it's... When nobody can point to one single thing that they did wrong.

It's the same thing as... That's what concerns me because that's the world we're living in now. I know, but it's the same, it's legit the same thing as Oscars So White. As what? As Oscars So White. After everything got trended and they were talking about the nominees for the Oscars were so lily white when you had a lot of people of color who, not not just black but foreign films who had great showings and they still weren't getting nominated

and so what did they do the academy adjusted their membership and now they have a more diverse pool and it's reflected in the people who were nominated so I think the same applies in this festival like if there was a panel of like I don't, if it was a panel of all 10 white people from middle class to wealthy families who did improv because they had money to spend on improv classes and they think they want to do stand-up and they really want to do TV writing,

they're going to pick the exact same replica of themselves. Okay, but is this a big, important festival? I've never even heard of it. It's been around for the Oscars. It's been around, this is the 10th year for it. I think the story of having a comedy show in

Atlanta, which is a really largely black city. Are you under the impression that there's no black comedy shows in Atlanta which have very few white people in them? I'm saying there are actually two black clubs in Atlanta with all black acts,

but that should show you that you should have a pool of talent to pull from. Okay. I believe Sam Morrow won it one year. There are also other people

that are not represented, I assume, at this festival. I don't know if I saw, I look at the faces, and of course, you can only judge so much whether one is Hispanic or Middle Eastern, etc.

But I imagine there's other groups that have been left out that are not represented. Does that similarly upset you? Certainly, Atlanta has a very large, if you've ever been to Buckhead or Dunwoody, you might have noticed a lot of loud Jews in those places. And I don't know that there were any Jews. Loud Jews? I'm sure there's Jews. Jews in that competition. And I don't know that there were any Jews. Loud Jews? I'm sure there's Jews. Jews in that competition.

The Jews are everywhere. The reason I'm very sensitive to this story is because something weird has happened where I used to be able to pride myself on the fact that I stubbornly refused to engage any bigotry in the way I book the room. And by the way, this is not just in the comedy cellar. When I used to run the band in the wall, I've talked about this. I started out with a band with like six white people and Rosalind was a black girl playing the keyboard.

And as people left, I would hold auditions over the years and I'd replace them with the best musician. And by the end, I was the only white guy in the band, or sometimes it was one other white guy in the band. And I remember thinking to myself, what's going to happen here? Like, will we still be able to draw a totally mixed crowd like we were drawing if it becomes, like, basically a black band and this nerdy Jewish guy? But I said, I'm not going to give in to that

because these are the best musicians. And sure enough, it made no difference to the audience. It made zero difference because we were presenting ourselves in a very wholesome kind of happy way and people didn't care. And I surprised myself on the wall that it was the only place I knew

where really was a mixed crowd. Like 20% black, Asians, Israelis. It was all over the map. So now, similarly in Comedy Cellar, I'm like, no, we're going to book the funniest comedian. But somewhere something switched now, where what used to be kind of the high

moral ground is now suspect. Now it's not enough to engage in discrimination by race. Now you're supposed to find the sweet spot of discrimination by race. You should have a little discrimination by race, a little bit of not booking the white guy,

and nobody can tell you what that is. And I'm like, fuck that. That isn't a possible standard. And, by the way, I spent the first 40 years of my life being taught that was not the goal. The goal was content of your character. Right. So that if you're really doing that and nobody's ever come to us with any accusations in all these years,

say, oh, you see that really funny black woman? You don't book her, but you book this loser Jewish kid. No, we're always hungry for anybody who's good. Well, you're entitled to run your comedy club the way you want. And I don't know. But I think that... Because there's other comedy clubs. Right, but what I'm saying is that I could get criticized on a particular night

for the same thing this dude's getting criticized for. How come you didn't reach out? Well, you know, and how many times have we had a show? We've had shows here where somebody complained that we didn't have trans comics on. We had this show one time. I said, okay, give me a list of the trans comics. They come with the assumption like you wouldn't want a trans comic. Well, actually, no.

I think it would be awesome to have a trans comic because it's a pretty good impact, right? They sent me a list of these people. They were horrible. I mean, just horrible, unwatchable. I couldn't even believe what was going on. Have you seen, I was like, are you crazy? I don't think anybody is suggesting to sacrifice the quality of the work in favor of something else, but I think that,

but not everybody is doing what you do. People are born with these huge responsibilities to champion social justice when they're having a comedy festival and they put the word out to everybody and you charge 25 bucks and you make sure that everybody's just judging on what they think is funniest. But is it possible that you go out of your way

to make sure that your space is diverse? No, we don't. I trust, I have confidence in the human race that if you are approaching things in the correct way, you will have diversity. That's my confidence. I think it's different here because this is a comedy world and you get a lot of referrals, word of mouth,

and comics will vouch for other people who they've met, who might have even stepped foot in here. So you get presented with a bigger pool of people. But if you aren't in that position and you're just in your little tower, you're only going to acknowledge the people who are in your purview. You know where you see the fewest

comics of color? It's some alt room in Williamsburg. The most woke people, the first people who would buy into this argument, will have the fewest people of color. And by the way, not because they're doing anything wrong. It's a woke, I mean, it's an alt room and there's not that many black comics with this argument will have the fewest people of color. And by the way, not because they're doing anything wrong. Well, they're woke.

It's a woke, I mean, it's an alt room and there's not that many black comics in my experience. It's like, so maybe they should stop their alt. Maybe they should say alt is really discriminatory in practice and you shouldn't have alt because you should know that it's going to reduce the outreach to people of color and blah, blah,

blah, blah, blah, blah. Rather than saying, listen, we're not doing anything wrong. Anybody's welcome to come. They just don't come. There's been an update on this story, by the way, that we absolutely must mention. Is this going to hurt me? Is this going to make me have to delete anything I said? No, they just issued, they released a statement.

The Laughing Skull Comedy Festival to our beloved comedy community. I'll paraphrase as best I can. We are grateful for all the feedback we have recently received regarding our upcoming annual Laughing Skull Festival. It has been brought to our attention

that the festival lacks diversity. We had no idea. Specifically due to the fact that no black women have been included in this year's 60 finalists. This, of course, does not sit well with us. After taking part in several very meaningful conversations, translation

being berated, and carefully listening to the concerns that have been raised, we realize that we have a significant blind spot when it comes to addressing inclusivity and we fully understand that this is an issue that needs our immediate attention. I'm just

trying to... So we're inviting top four, we're inviting the top four black women Who scored highest Based on the scores Of the judges One for each Of the industry showcases Now can you pause there

If you were one of those Black comedians Would that make you feel good I'm asking you honestly You know what Absolutely It would make me feel terrible But I would still do it

And I would fucking kill And not make them eat crow You would kill But what if these women don't kill? Then that's a lesson. That's very speculative. That's what I'm saying. I would find that risky. Well, listen, if they

will kill, then the judges really need to question and say, what did we miss here? But presuming for the sake of argument that they won't kill and it'll be clear why it was that they weren't chosen. Yeah. Which I think is more likely, but I don't know.

What will be the, will that help or hurt the cause? It will hurt the cause because in this specific instance, when it comes to black people, they say, oh, we tried once. We tried. We did what you said. Yeah. And we're not going to do it again. But when it's like a white kid or a young, pretty white girl, they were like, oh, we'll just keep trying.

We'll bring her back and we'll give her tips on her set and give her coaching and then we'll make sure she succeeds because we want her to succeed. We just don't get that many chances. The truth is, Chloe, it's a rough business and people often

will book based not just on funny but I don't think Noam necessarily does this but based on who they think is going to be a big star. No, we don't do that. And unfortunately a pretty white girl is going to get priority not only perhaps over a black woman

but over, say, a middle-aged white guy. You know, there's a lot of... By the way, I'm not going to cosign what Dan just said. Because I don't like that. Because if you're a comedy festival and you're claiming to do it on the funniest acts, then it has to be based on the funniest acts.

I don't know what their criteria is. I know in the business in general, there's people that, if you're a young, beautiful woman, yeah, you're going to get more attention. And if you're a young beautiful woman, yeah, you're going to get more attention. And if you're a young beautiful white woman, perhaps you'll get more attention than a young attractive black woman.

But it's also the case if you're a not-so-attractive woman or a man that's a little of a certain I mean, there's a lot of... See, I don't like that stuff. But that goes on. I don't like it either. Dance does not own a comedy club. I think they make a mistake. It's true that some people do, but I think the people who

enter into that thing make a mistake. By that logic, Aretha Franklin might never have been discovered. There's all kinds of examples of where that logic would have been a disaster. And I have found that that logic is very flimsy.

To assume that people are that shallow in terms of what they'll find entertaining turns out to be a mistake. If somebody is hilarious, they could be hideous, and it would be a big mistake not to give them a chance. I must say, though, I do enjoy watching Cicely Strong on SNL,

not only because she's funny, but because I find her sexy. Thank you for mentioning that. I want to say something. So we did have a little experience with this when we were doing the Comedy Central show. Where we had a lot of names. There was pressure during the first episodes to book a lot of people who hadn't been working here and who did represent outreach. And not all of them,

but a what's the word? Overwhelming? What's the word? A cringe-worthy number just died on stage. Just died. And it made me feel good about

the fact that, oh, well, we have been doing this right. It's not as if we didn't find some killer black female comic out there who we didn't see because of our outreach. The one person that we did get from that show who is really killing is Yamanika. Did you start coming here because of the show, Jill? No, I had just started. You had just started. So Yamanika, and I don't know how it was that we didn't know about Yamanika. Did you start coming here because of Sheldon? No, I had just started. So Yamanika, and I don't know

how it was that we didn't know about Yamanika, but I'd have to say, we should have her on and ask her about it, but I have to say, in some sense, that was probably her. Because she never came in, she never introduced, she never emailed, she never had somebody recommend her. Now, Chloe might say that she didn't

come in because she felt uncomfortable. No, Chloe was a growing act. Chloe might say Yamanika felt uncomfortable. She might say that she didn't come in because she felt uncomfortable. No, Chloe was a growing act. We know Chloe. Chloe might say Yamanika felt uncomfortable. She might say that. There's lots of comedians who feel uncomfortable coming in here and trying to get in. We have Keith Robinson just sat down. He's always got something to say.

Yeah, can I say this? It's different being uncomfortable to come in here and not being asked to come in here. That's a big difference. What do you mean? So, in other words, like, a lot of times, even when you book the TV shows, you see them book,

it's mostly white guys. It's mostly white, not because white guys are better. It's the guys who's booking it are white. It's because guys are better. No, no, okay. It's a joke. It was a joke.

And they feel more comfortable with that kind of comedy. That's what I meant about the relatability. So if you were on the comedy cellar, what would you do differently? If I were on the comedy cellar? See, the good thing about the comedy cellar is that I am here, and I can give you names. Yes. Right.

I can give you the names of the black comics that you're missing. Are we receptive when you give them to us? Very. Okay, so that's it. But that's a comedy celebration, and that's listening to somebody that's there. But imagine how many places that there's nobody black around to say, hey, you got to give this guy a shot, or you got to give this girl a shot. I want to be very clear.

I accept that. I would not, if you present me with a factual scenario where somebody in that scenario is doing something that I can point to and say, you know, that's not right

what he's doing, I would be on your side. I mean, you know, I'm not some crazy right winger. I just don't like... But you're a right winger. That's a crazy right winger.

I just don't like the assumption that we can look at one outcome in one year and start to assassinate this guy's character. But the problem is that when you identify yourself as a gatekeeper or a trendsetter. Who identifies themselves as a gatekeeper?

That's what these festivals are. You are, in fact, a gatekeeper or a trendsetter or you want to buck the trend or you want to identify the next wave. Then you have to go out of your comfort zone and find the people. If you don't do that, then you're just taking what's easy, and then you're not really living up to your ego of being like, well, I'm the person that discovered this person. No, you just discovered the person that's next door to you. That's not a discovery.

Can we get this guy on our show maybe to call him the guy who won the festival? Marshall Childs is his name. He lives in Atlanta. Perhaps if you paid his airfare, either first class or even more space on JetBlue. There's enough black comics in Atlanta. Exactly. There's certainly many black comics at that festival, just not black women.

See, Noam, you own the best comedy club in the city. And so you're at the top. And the people who come up to the top, they get vouched for. And so you don't have to self-select. Whereas these, it's an institutional problem. The problem, the systemic sexism or racism problem is institutionalized. It's getting people into the pipeline so that they can make their way up to eventually get to you. So contests like this, they pitch themselves as

we're the contest that gets you in front of the booker for the Tonight Show, the guys who, the bookers who will book you in clubs across the country. We're the contest that will get you further in your career. And when those contests are... What do you think is the more

likely outcome here? That next year, they're going to actually find ways to get more black female applicants and then they're going to have a blind grading as they have until now and then they will end up having a significant number of black females or they're just going to make sure no matter what, they scoop up some black women next year whether they think they deserve it or not. How are they going to make sure no matter what, they scoop up some black women next year, whether they think they deserve it or not. How are they going to have blind grading? That's the one thing I hate is that always when it comes to somebody of color, women, I know you hate when I say that, but as always, are they deserving?

When is a white guy not deserving? Yeah. All the time. It's a lot, but you never hear that. When you come to get somebody else, when it comes to getting somebody else in, like when you

the presidential race, I don't mind a woman as long as she's qualified. I never said that. No, not you, but I'm saying that's the word that goes out. I don't think so. I don't think so. It goes out there.

It does it all the time. So what I'm saying is just get the funniest people. Yes. Look for them. But if they get the funniest people, and for whatever reason in 2019, it just so happens that the funniest people they found included no women of color, would you accept that possibility? It's never possible.

You can't find a funny black woman. You can't find one in Atlanta? You could throw a shoe and hit five. You cannot find one that submitted to the festival. Of course you can't find one. Of course you can't find one. But the question is whether you have a moral obligation to go find her if she doesn't want to enter your contest on her own.

Well, talk to Lorne Michaels and ask him, would Leslie Jones be a star if he weren't shamed into having an audition for black women? Absolutely not. And Leslie Jones is a star now. Yeah, I agree with you. Because Lorne Michaels was shamed. Right, but that doesn't mean he was doing anything wrong.

Yes, he was. It's nice. It's... No. Listen, I feel bad for the Indian girl that didn't get in because Leslie's taking his space. We don't talk about the Indian girl. Leslie Jones is a star and you know what? Let me take it back.

It does show that there was something wrong with Lorne Michaels' process. If somebody like Leslie Jones didn't have access to that pipeline for SNL, I'm going to grant you that because she's so clearly deserved to be there. But that's the biggest problem when you talk about systemic racism is the exclusion factor. When you can say, we looked, we couldn't find it.

You didn't really look. Let me remind you. Lorne Michaels didn't have anybody black on that show, black female on that show for like 25 years. Yes. What does that say? This festival had black women last year. Oh. That's what I'm saying.

This is not a sample size that I think warrants a conclusion. One year of a festival which traditionally has not had this problem. Lorne Michaels, yeah. After 25 years of SNL and no black women, you say, hey, Lorne, why don't you say maybe for your own sake, considering there certainly must be a lot of talented black women out there. Considering the president and first lady are black, maybe you should have. Yeah, maybe you're not looking. Maybe something's going wrong. Absolutely.

But they even have a festival where you invite, I don't know how many white folks, white women. They didn't invite them. Whatever it is. You audition them or whatever. They submit. They submit. Yeah, you should have somebody of color. They have black guys of color.

Do you want to... They did have people of color. I told them that there's a difference how black men can navigate spaces that black women aren't invited to. Wait a minute. Oh, here we go. Now this is where you lose me.

No, no, no. I'm just saying. But you know what I'm saying. That is a difference. Don't fold, Keith. There's a little bit more welcoming for... Keith is having like a real... Somebody real blood is sticking in the water moment.

You better stick with me, Keith. Why are you shaking, Keith? He's trembling. Fuck those bitches. He's like an android in Star Trek about to shut down. It was... Wait, wait, don't let him off the hook. What started this issue in the first place...

Don't let him off the hook. ...was black female comedians. They were the ones who raised it up more. Chloe says that black females can't negotiate the spaces that black men can negotiate and Keith's going to say yes, why? you gotta give me why they can't

I'm just saying that the invitation isn't as extended for black women as it is for black men because black men can identify with other men on a male level and then also black men can be the object of affection for a white woman booker who wants to bed them and put them on their show. So black women aren't, no, I think you're wrong on that.

And your analogy there, I think that's completely wrong. Completely wrong? Yes. I'm just saying that you can fit in, if it was a table of all. You can fit in. If it was a table of all. You can fit in too. Look, black women and the job force, black women are easily hired more than black men. Absolutely. Significantly. But that's because black women have higher education degrees than black men.

That is true. So now you're saying it's because it's fair. No, no, no. No, no. I'm just saying that statistically African-American women have higher... What you're saying is not racism against black men. It's actually that we're just more qualified than they are. I'm just saying...

No, no, no. That's what you're saying. But no, because this is the thing is... I think this is the biggest problem when we have these conversations is that it's always easy to pick the fruit that's fallen from the tree, but you really have to get down to the root. And the root is that the reason why black women have more higher degrees than black men is because of the prison complex and death. So it's numbers. Statistically, there are over

you know, there are men missing from the pool. I believe, I'm not sure, but I believe there have been studies actually which have shown that black men, all things being equal, have a harder time getting hired. Like identical resumes and all that stuff, just having a black first name, like a Jamal or something like that,

will hurt a black man's chances of getting hired. And by the way, these are the serious societal problems, in my opinion. No, absolutely. But then, see, but then the flip side to that is, a black man may have a harder time being hired, but when he gets hired compared to a black woman, he's going to make more money than her.

I don't believe that's true. I don't think that's true. Somebody at home, Google it and let us know. No, I mean, there have been articles recently saying that that's not true. It's not a far-gone conclusion. Thank God we're in the comedy business. Do you want to ask? So this is interesting.

You know what else is interesting about this? And this is a comment on our times. That I was making an argument, and I'm like, oh, I'm on thin ice here. I'm a white guy. I'm making an argument, which to me is like a logical argument. You're still a white guy. But I know because I'm a white guy, it can get me in trouble. And then Keith sits down, doesn't even know his name, and makes basically the exact same argument.

And yet it's quite different and and and i understand why it's quite different because his his life experience gives him saying that a little more credibility than mine i understand that nevertheless we should all be able to i should be able to say it and and have somebody just no no no you don't understand this is what it's like without without feeling the the the risk that oh i'm gonna be called a name or a racist or something like that. I got lucky this time because the black guy agrees with me. Don't say that. I get in trouble.

The more distinctive difference between the two of you, though, is not your race. It's your occupation. No. You're an owner and Keith is a performer. Yeah. Why can't I be an owner? Do you own anything? You want to own a comic is a performer. Why can't I be an owner? Do you own anything? You want to own a comic club?

Yeah. All right. I'm his partner. Listen, Noam, find Keith to open up an Atlanta comedy club and then you can have a show. Comedy seller Atlanta. That'll fix everything. Noam, do we want to ask Sean what scoops he's got cooking? Sure, go ahead.

What you're working on. The Comics Comic is the name of your blog. Yes, it's a website. It's a blog format, I guess. I recently got back from a trip to Los Angeles. I'm looking at that website to see how many black women you've written about. God damn it.

Can I say this? One more thing before I go. Why did Dad just cut off this sharply? Well, I'll tell you why. We've been on it for a while. I'll tell you why. We've been on it for a while. I'll tell you why. We came in and we were talking about it for a while. We were finished with it.

Okay. I think I could go on all day with this, but we have been talking for a while. Yeah, because I didn't like you leaving me out here like that, Tom. We don't have commercial breaks, at least as of now. I know, but Tom just said it. And the black guy came. You know, I could get called a couple of names because of that.

You'll be okay. Yeah, you're fine. Look, it is a fascinating, not fascinating, but I've commented on it before that normally in the world, the black guy gets the, by far, the shit end of the stick. Prison, all that stuff. It's interesting that in comedy,

black guys dominate. Yeah. So, one possible conclusion some novice might make that I say, oh, well, comedy doesn't seem to be an area where people have any kind of deep racism because look how the black guys are dominating. Then the black woman comes in and is like, hold my beer. Right. But then maybe there could be other explanations. You know what it is? For that other than racism. That's what I want to get to. No, it explanations for that other than racism. That's not what I get to.

No, it's more sexism than racism. Answer the black guy is dominating comedy. Answer that, Chloe. No, the thing is that when it comes to entertainment, right, it allows people who may not relate to you in real life to find you accessible or an inspiration or a friend in their head. So that's why you have the racist white guy who will never be

a friend with a person of color, has season tickets to the NBA game because they can watch it and admire it and see it from a distance, but it's not a part of their actual life. The same reason why interracial porn is the number one porn. Is it? Yes. Like, racists watch interracial porn

because they love to see a black guy fuck a white girl, but they don't want black friends. So it allows you to fantasize and put yourself in this world, but it doesn't harm who you are and your identity. So, of course, everybody wants to hang out with the funny black guy, because it's like he's a funny black guy, but would you

be your friend or defend him if the police pull him over? You're like, I don't know. It's a difference. That's not what he was saying though. Joyelle, by the way, Joyelle Johnson, she actually disagrees with you. She was on the show and she actually feels there's something about comedy, this is what she said, which is just more male.

Like more of like, stand-up comedy, she thought was like a more male aggressive type thing. That's what she said. I used her saying it because she's a black woman. type thing. That's what she said. Just to say. I used her saying it because she's a black woman. And what was the other thing you said? You just said? I just think that people, you can identify with somebody and like them, but not have to interact with them in your real life. Oh, but the fact is that, you know, sometimes things don't break down the way we'd like it.

Like, I mean, Chappelle, Chris Rock, Richard Pryor, you know. Let me say this. Where is the, is there the female Richard Pryor out there? White or black? I don't know. I'm sure there is. No, there's no female Richard Pryor. But we haven't seen one yet.

There's no. I mean, no, put it like this. I think there are, I think there are top, put it like this. How many top sellout arenas black women comedian can you name? Tiffany Haddish. That's it, right? I mean, she's the biggest one. I don't know if she's selling out in the room.

Wanda. In 25, 30 years, that's it. That's what I'm saying. When you talk about the pool, our pool is even smaller at the starting point. I mean, you could bring up Monique's big complaint about the entertainment industry on Netflix. Not giving black women a fair shake. Okay, but the fact is, and listen. No one is trying to say his black men are just damn good.

Black men can navigate spaces that black women can't. No, that's wrong there. That's absolutely wrong. How many times have you walked by a bar on McDougal Street and you see eight frat white boys with their polos and their boat shoes and one black guy that's their friend? I see the same thing with black girls. Yes, I do.

They're in the workforce more. It's not about the workforce. I'm talking about socially. Let me answer you in this way. Don't read into this any conclusion, because I'm not saying that you're wrong. You could be right. And I'm not just saying that. No, no, no.

You're not saying it. I am. Okay. But the thing is that there are many aspects where we see things break down in a way which seem inexplicable. Sometimes it's even in the opposite direction. For instance, Jews and Nobel Prize winnings in science. I don't like that.

Jews have 500 times or 1,000 times, they're only 2% of the country and there's only 13 million Jews in the world. They are severe, like half the Nobel Prize, something crazy like that. These are people who were coming out of countries where they were persecuted, out of Soviet Russia, whatever it is.

So there are times when different groups of people just do really well at something. Could be something as simple as the way they're encouraging their home. And you can't draw conclusions from that. And you can think of many examples. I can show these Jews because I can get away with talking about it without getting in trouble. Go ahead. Let me address her. And then Sean, you can go.

Like, just in coming into comedy, right? Yeah. Funny always meets funny, no matter what they call her. So when I first got here, me and Wanda came together. Wanda Sykes. Yeah. She's funny as hell. We got along like that just for being there. Because she's funny.

I'm like, I'm going to hang out with the funny. Right. Then I got to New York, and I seen Jim Norton funny. We hanging out. I seen Rick Forrest funny. We're hanging out. Didn't matter what they were. Didn't matter who they were.

If you got a funny, always meets funny. And it's not navigation. It's just funny with that. But that's from a peer-to-peer point of view. But when you talk about the gatekeepers and who was going to look at a video and say, I don't identify with this black woman, but I still think she's

funny. Those are fewer people. Now, you know, the truth is, you're talking about identify. This audience that comes to the Comedy Cellar is multi, you know, the truth is, you're talking about identify. This audience that comes to the Comedy Cellar is multi, well, it's mostly white, but they're not laughing. It's mixed. But they're not laughing. Would you say that if somebody is funny,

generally speaking, everybody's on board? The comics who kill the hardest are the black dudes. It's not about the audience liking you. It's about the people who have the power to put you in a position

like these festivals who don't make it accessible for black women. But Noam's point is we don't really know that that's the case. I'm going to get in trouble for saying it.

Pound for pound, I would say, the black dudes have the highest batting average. There's plenty of white guys who kill as well. But pound for pound, the black guys, the black dudes have the highest batting average. There's plenty of white guys who kill as well. But pound for pound, the black guys, and it's not just here, on Netflix. I mean, who are the big breakout comedy stars on Netflix?

It's the black guys. And that's, you know, to look at that and say, well, there's got to be something wrong here. Something is going on here. I'm not saying you shouldn't look at it. I'm not saying we shouldn't be skeptical of it. But I just don't say assuming there's something going on. The comics have not saying you shouldn't look at it. I'm not saying we shouldn't be skeptical of it. But I just don't... Sean, I don't say assuming there's something

going on. The comics have been chiming in a bit. Yes, because as soon as you mentioned Jews and Nobel Prizes... Are you Jewish? No, you're not Jewish.

No, it's Sean McCarthy. Speaking to your point and to Chloe's, half of Albert Einstein's Nobel Prize winning work was actually produced by his wife. But it was not... No, don't give by his wife. But it was not palatable for a female scientist to be approved.

I'm going to bet you $100 here. I can't wait to receive your $100. Albert Einstein's work, the theoretical work, the heavy lifting of that work did not come from his wife. Let's go to Google. You want to take that bet? I know nothing about it. I can't wait to have your $100. Not because she's a woman. I'm going to tell you why I say that.

I'm already thinking of how I'm spending it. What are the odds of the two smartest people on planet Earth being married in the 1910s or 20s? You gravitate to people who are like- I've never heard of that.

Did you ever hear that? Because you don't hear about the women. But did you ever hear that point that Sean made? Have you heard that? Never. I've never heard it either. And why do you suppose you never heard that? He did go to Princeton. Einstein was a Princetonian. Yeah, why do you suppose you never heard that as a white man? In 2019, if what you're saying- Why do you suppose you never heard that the woman behind Einstein- I heard that? He did go to Princeton. Einstein was at Princeton. Yeah, why do you suppose you never heard that as a white man?

In 2019, why do you suppose you never heard that the woman behind Einstein I heard that Einstein wrote his wife a letter that she had to sign

that said, you're going to give me my three meals, you don't bother me. This is what I read. Was that supposed to be funny? No. This is his first wife.

This is his first wife and it said that No, this is true. He was total sexist. Listen, first wife, evidence shows that If you're going to say he's right,

I don't want to hear it. Could you please allow Chloe to speak? Evidence shows that there's evidence that she contributes significantly to his groundbreaking science. What's the website that... This is scientificamerican.com. Okay, we'll accept that as legitimate. That's not half. What was the contribution?

I'm just skimming, but that's the headline. We have to look into this more. It says, the forgotten life of Einstein's first wife. She was a physicist, too, and there's evidence that she contributed significantly to his groundbreaking science. What does that mean? Because didn't he do stuff when he was a patent? Maybe read the rest of the article. But didn't he do the most stuff when he was a patent court?

Was he even married when he was an undergraduate? What was the name of his wife, by the way? His first wife? Yes. Her name was Malena Marik. Marik? Einstein. Malik?

No, Marik. Marik. It's Marik. Well, in any case, Noam's point about Jews and Nobel Prizes is certainly not invalidated, even if that's true. They're still Jews. That the Einstein story speaks to what Chloe was saying about men being able to navigate the system better than women.

Absolutely. Well, maybe. Regardless of race. No, that's not fair. You want to talk about the 1920s when they couldn't vote, you wouldn't have any argument from me about what was holding women back. I'm just saying structurally, comedy is built for men. And to get women of any race into the pipeline, you need to make changes to the structure. I'm just saying it'd be quite facile to compare

the plight of women in turn-of-the-century Germany or wherever it was to 2019 America in terms of what women can do. Well, the thing is that there's definitely a hierarchy and comedy is male-dominated and after men of all

races, then you have white women and then after white women, you have everybody else. And then trans at the bottom of everybody else. I mean, that's just the breakdown. Yeah. In my experience. I just want to say, for the record, Keith doesn't want to go into the next subject.

Go ahead, Keith. Go ahead, Keith. I have a spot around the corner. If he has a spot, she has a spot. You want to deprive a black woman of her comedy spot? Okay, adieu to crashing. Do you want to discuss that or Sean's latest scoop? He just got back from L.A.

He said he had a scoop. Oh, you have a scoop? Okay, give us a scoop. When I was in L.A., I happened by the Hollywood Improv on their very first night testing out the yonder bags. Oh. Oh, yeah. You should definitely have that. We already do it.

The yonder bag is where you put your phone in a bag and it locks so you can't use it during the show. For those who don't know what a yonder bag is. So they said, when I asked them, they said this was their first night. They're giving it a two-week test and they weren't sure. So this was just last week. But I think we're at a tipping point now

where the yonder bag or something like it, because you use something different but similar, we're getting to a point where it's just acceptable now at live shows, especially comedy shows, because it's being done at other venues in Los Angeles, other venues here in New York. You here at Gnome at the Comedy Cellar have done yonder bags. Now we've switched to an easier system. We're using disposable bags because that way the customer doesn't have to wait to have us open it when they leave.

It was impossible. I agree. I think I first experienced it when I went to see Dave Chappelle at Radio City Music Hall. And it definitely changed the experience because it made you present. And it actually encouraged you when you had intermission to talk to the people next to you. And I think it puts you in a present state of mind to forget everything and not- We need a yonder bag next to my wife's night table. You got to shut it down.

If it makes her more present. Thanks for having me. I'm running around the corner, but thanks for having me. So before you go, we didn't say anything that you think was offensive in any way, do you? No, I don't think so at all, but I think that these conversations are needed because when you have different points of view, it allows you to see things differently even though you don't realize that your point of view

might not be the norm. That's actually exactly the point I wanted to bring out, which is that because we can't have a conversation like this if everybody's afraid at all. If I say the wrong thing, whatever it is,

which is kind of what I feel. It's important to have these conversations. It's crucial. It's crucial. Everybody learns from everybody. Buy my book, Fuck Your Diet, fyourdiet.com. It's available for pre-sale now. Thanks. Thanks, Chloe. What else? We've got a few minutes. Sean, what else do you want to talk about?

Well, Pete Davidson versus the Catholic Church. You have more to say about the yonder bag. Yeah, I just feel like we had a long time where it was hard to even police cell phones. I have friends who are teachers, and I just feel bad for them. How do you have a classroom with every student having all the answers in their hand? In a comedy show, it's a completely different problem because you have everybody

filming and recording. My feeling about this thing, by the way, is that the Yonder Bag is a temporary fix along the technological progression, but it's if not all... Like, for instance, when they

covered Aziz's show. What are you doing? I'm recording. When they covered Aziz's show, well, I don't know if you're going to print this. When they covered Aziz's show, I noticed that they had, we used yonder bags that day, and I noticed

that they had, they quoted him verbatim, which implied to me that they had, we used yonder bags that day, and I noticed that they had, they quoted him verbatim, which implied to me that they had some kind of hidden recorder. Right. New York Magazine, whoever it was, Vulture, that covered it. Yeah, there's other recorders. Yeah, so, you know, it makes things harder, but you imagine if somebody has intention, they're going to figure it out.

But what I don't like, and maybe you could agitate for this. Well, that's why I bring it up. I want to know. Okay, this you can record. I don't understand why, I think it's by design, why YouTube, Twitter, the various places that people release this kind of stuff don't have some sort of fast-track process where people can have their copyrights protected right away. If you try to contact YouTube, this happens where somebody bootlegs something. It takes five, six days by the time they get around to answering you by the time they take it down. Oh, the Louis performance that he did at Governor's over the holidays was a situation just like that. Yeah, so the guy actually did try they take it down... Oh, the Louis performance at Adidas Governors over the holidays was a situation just like that. Yeah, so the guy actually did

try to take it down immediately, but by then it was already scooped up. And I think, obviously, there's a conflict of interest because when somebody grabs, you know, so-and-so's new hour special and puts it on YouTube, that generates income for YouTube.

But I think there needs to be a court case or something. I think it's outrageous that anything which is advertised as being recorded at the comedy seller isn't immediately red flagged. Right. And that they shouldn't check with us, hey, what is this? They know. They're pretending they don't know. They do know.

So does Twitter. And they have AI now which can ferret out so many things it could certainly ferret out this sort of copyright violation if it wanted to you try to put some they don't want to

you ever try to post some song as a backdrop to a little home video on Facebook they immediately stop it they have their Shazam because whatever it is whoever is in control of that has the clout, has the juice to get Facebook

to their knees. It could be maybe anything that's very long like if you're posting something that's two minutes, it's one thing. If you're posting something that's 30 minutes it's more likely to be an issue. I believe there's an actual 30 second or less.

The point is they have AI which identifies it immediately. Oh, this is a song just like Shazam. It's basically Shazam. But how might they identify, say, somebody posts Louis C.K. at the Comedy Cellar? How might, in your imagination, that be immediately flagged? Well, one way would be that I would pay for it. I'd pay $1,000 a year to YouTube,

and anything that says comedy seller on it, recorded the comedy seller, they flag for me, and I have to approve it. Like, they're going to kill stand-up comedy here. But then somebody could just say, Louis C.K. at Comedy Club. Right, so they have to say, I would say, one step ahead of it.

And they have to, once, but the thing is, once it is identified, they can take a fingerprint of it, just they have to, once, and then, but the thing is, once it is identified, they can take a fingerprint of it, just like Shazam. And they could then prevent that thing from being reposted by anybody who managed to download and save it. They have

that technology. It doesn't matter that somebody took it down from the first guy who posted the Louis set. If they wanted to, they could prevent anybody from reposting that set, just by taking the fingerprint of it. And they choose not to. Periel, is there any way, as our booker, we could get somebody that has

knowledge of this technology or that works in that industry that could speak to that? I know the technology. We know the technology. Any song which has been released, you Shazam it, they know they can identify it. You can't identify new jokes, though. No, but I'm

saying once I, once as the, once somebody has identified an audio recording as copyright protected, that fingerprint can be taken by YouTube, and that can prevent anybody from posting that thing again. What happens now is that

that one guy's thing is taken down. It gets mirrored, I believe is the term. The guy who saved it can post it, and they pretend, oh, we have no way of it. Now it's viral. We have no way of stopping it. No, they do have a way of stopping it. They're not interested in stopping it. And people high up in show business ought to bring pressure to bear on Twitter, on YouTube, on Reddit, on wherever it is, lawsuits, whatever it is, because that is more important than the underbacks.

I would like to hear, not that I dispute what you're saying about the technological aspect of it, but I would like to hear from somebody in that line of work to speak to that and to defend their position. If there's somebody at YouTube, that would certainly be a great thing to have him to discuss that. Perrielle, what do you think? Perrielle, you say what? I mean, I, you know, I don't know. Like, I feel like, I don't

think, I definitively do not think that you should be allowed to repost. No, no, no. I mean, what do you think about getting somebody to discuss that on this show? I mean, I don't really. Dan, say my word for it. I know about this. I'm not that interested.

The technology is there. Since you started using the yonder bags and then just the generic pouches, have you found a significant improvement in the show experience? Comedians say that they feel an improvement. I'm a comedian. I don't feel an improvement. I'm a comedian. I don't feel an improvement. You don't? I don't feel an improvement because the shows were

great before, the shows are great now. You were never allowed to take your phones out anyway. They had pretty good policing before. Well, the cellar has had good policing. It may well be that... Throughout the country, no. It may well be that people generally aren't recording me and putting me on YouTube. No one

will be happy to tell you nobody cares. But as he mentioned a couple weeks ago with another one of our guests, I think it was Keith, where you said nobody's interested in recording him either. But as far as his experience for me as a performer, no, I haven't noticed a difference. But that's my

opinion. But just because you're saying they did a good job from the beginning. Because I think they did a good job from the get-go. If it makes the Aziz's of the world, the Louie's of the world, the Chris Rocks of the world, etc., more at ease, then it's great for everybody because the more they come here, the better it is for the club,

the better it is for the club, the better it is for everybody. Knowing it's a safe space, so to speak, not a safe space like snowflakes. I hope it doesn't lull anybody into a false sense of security. But, yes, it's a much safer space. And has there been any blowback from audiences? Or are they pretty receptive to it? I can't say zero, but minuscule.

I suggested, and I suggested this a couple of episodes ago, that no one include in the bag some Now or Laters. So that they feel that they got something for the inconvenience. Like going to the dentist. You get a lollipop at the end. Be it a Now or Later, be it a Starburst, Fruit Chew, etc. I'm quite happy that we're doing it. I'm quite happy that we were first

and that we weren't dragged into it kicking and screaming. Do you think the Hollywood improv, was it all influenced by the comedy seller? I know the comedy store does it, but just when Chappelle drops in there. That's because he brought the bags. Yeah, well, he was the first one to use the bags. Yeah, but he actually, I think, supplied them the bags for his shows. That's a little different.

He started them, and then Hannibal was the second one to do them. And then there was a while where nobody else was doing them. But just now in this past year, I know Hannah Gadsby's new show, which she's testing in L.A., has that for every show. I know Freestyle Love Supreme, which is doing a new show with Lin-Manuel Miranda at Ars Nova. They have the bags for them. It's just becoming more, I think we've reached that tipping point where it's just more acceptable for performers, clubs, and audiences to just go, okay, oh, the two dope queens, when they did their HBO tapings, they had the bags too. So it's just become more standard.

Yes, it is. And again, I hope it works. But no plan survives contact with the enemy, as they say. And I have a sinking feeling that sooner or later somebody's going to figure out a way. What do you mean? I don't think we have time to go through the other things on the list because they're kind of big. But I do want to say one thing.

I think that when Chloe is saying what she's saying, I think it's really important that people listen to that. You can't tell a black woman or anyone that they're wrong about their experience.

Really? People tell the Jews they were wrong about Ilhan Omar. Okay. Don't. No, I'm serious. That's the next topic. You want to jump in? I'm being totally serious. You don't think that's right, but you've said that that's not right. I think that

I would never, if somebody told me that I'm wrong about how I feel about something. If somebody's telling you something that's anti-Semitic, and I mean, if you're saying something's anti-Semitic, somebody else can't tell you no. As a Jew. Yeah, they can. They can, and I would not be offended. It's not about being offended. It's perfectly valid for them to say, explain it to me. Perfectly valid. Of course

you can explain it. And they can disagree with me. They don't have to agree with me. But don't you think that your experience as a Jewish person experiencing anti-Semitism... Okay, listen, you have two people, one Keith and one Chloe. They're both black. But she's a woman. Right.

And so she knows what that experience is. Are you telling me that I couldn't find two black women to disagree about something? No, of course not. So if I find the two black women who disagree, my job as a white person is to say, well, you're both right. I never said your job. No, it's not. That is the logical sense of what you're saying.

That if somebody, by dint of their DNA, that their experience can't be questioned, then if you have two people of the same DNA who disagree about what they think their experience means, then they both have to be right. No, I would just really be surprised if you would find a black woman...

I'm doing simple arithmetic to you here. I'm saying that you are saying that somebody is right based on their... They have the right to say, listen, I'm black, so therefore I'm right. No, I'm saying that that experience is important to listen to. That's what I'm saying. That's not what you said. That is what I said. You said nobody can tell a person blah, blah, blah.

I'm saying that that experience is important to listen to. No, I believe. Everybody's experience is important to listen to. Everybody's experience, everybody's logic and reasoning is important to listen to. Everybody's logic and reasoning is important to listen to. But nobody gets to just put a veto on somebody else's reasoning and say, listen, because this happened to me. This happened to me around the corner, and the shoe was on the other foot, when a guy who worked for me.

Why are you so mad at me? I'm mad at you because of the simple way I exposed the flaw in the argument and that the argument still persists. I had a guy around the corner, a friend of mine, a dear friend of mine, who was outed for changing his, in transition. He was outed by some people who worked with him. And I confronted the people who worked with him. And I confronted the people who worked with him. And I said, well, how dare you out him? You know he didn't want to. And the first thing he said to me was, listen, as a gay man, don't tell me that I outed someone.

And I said, really? Then you tell me what I got wrong. Because he didn't want anybody to know. You were the one who put it out there. If not for you, nobody would know. But see, and then he had to back off and then we had a conversation. But the first fucking instinct was,

as a gay man, don't tell me about outing. And that is what is so wrong with what you're saying. That's not what I said at all. What I was saying to him was, before you resort to that, and maybe they say,

listen, maybe you just don't understand because you don't have the same experience as I do. But they don't lead with that. They lead with, no, no, no, hands off. This is the way it is because look at me.

Or, you know what? I'm gay, so therefore you just listen. Never mind that the guy who was outed agrees with me. But he's not there. But that's what I just said. Yeah, but they put you on the defensive. I'm not putting anybody on any defensive. And I wasn't even talking about you.

This is typical. Here, I asked Chloe. I'm talking with her. I wasn't talking about you. Oh, you weren't? No, of course not. Not even for one second. So who are you talking about? In general. In general what? That it's important to listen to that perspective.

It's important to eat wholesome food. Yes, it's important to listen to people. Of course it's important to listen to people. Of course it's important to listen to people. Does anybody think it's not important to listen to people? Yeah, I do. Well, who says that? Who stands for it's not important to listen to people. Of course it's important to listen to people. Of course it's important to listen to people. Does anybody think it's not important to listen to people? Yeah, I do. Well, who says that? Who stands for it's not important to listen to people? I don't know what you're getting so fucking defensive about.

Because I can't stand the... Wait, do you think I was telling you that? I can't stand the knee-jerk overlay. But there was none of that at all. I'll leave it up to the listeners to rewind and listen to what you said. Maybe you need to rewind and listen to what you said. I agree with Noam on the substance of the argument, but he's a lot angrier about it than I would have been.

Yeah, I'll tell you why I get angry about it. Because this is dangerous to society, what she's doing. Because people... I'm telling you, it truly is. Because this is what we see all the time. That people are shut down. I mean, I've been through this. Did I shut somebody down?

I've been through this. When we had our problems here with Louis and whatever it is, I got attacked for my race. Now, I'm not sensitive about my race, but what was interesting was the illogic of it. He's not sensitive about his white race, his Jewish race, he says. No, the notion,

I don't even care about the Jews. To me, what I found interesting about it was how stupid it was that people thought, A, that it was okay, like they've not at least been embarrassed about it, and B, they thought it was relevant to bring up my race

in the context of the fact that we thought it was okay for Louis to perform. This is the habit, the thought habit that we thought it was okay for Louis to perform. This is the habit, the thought habit that we're getting into, where race, DNA is everything. Look at this university thing this week. Everybody is up in arms about these 50 kids or whatever

it is, I think it was who got in through bribery. Well, those are just the indictments. There were 761 total. Kids? Families. I don't know how many kids. Okay, let's say 700 kids. They're up in arms about these 700 kids,

but it's not the 700 kids who got in, they're really up in arms about the 700 people who didn't get in because these 700 kids got in. They're the victim. The victims are the... Yet, thousands and thousands and thousands of Asian kids are not getting in because they're Asian. We know this. Thousands.

And it's not bribery, which is, you know, corruption, bribery. That will always be with us. Every system will always have to be policed against bribery, including admission to anything. No. With the Asian kids, we're keeping them out because that's what we intend to do. This is what good people intend to do. And this is the sickness of viewing everything in terms of race. And it is all connected.

It's all fucking connected. As soon as you can counter somebody's logical arguments by pointing out the color of the skin, who the arguments are coming out of, or the color of the skin of the person being spoken to, and you don't have to address the logical arguments, then we're in big trouble. And that's where we're heading.

And that's how it is that there's nobody going to really tell you it's okay that Harvard should say, nope, 20%, only 20% Asians at Harvard. It doesn't matter. I don't care if we triple the population of Asians. We're not letting more than 20% in. But somehow, that doesn't seem like a terrible thing has happened to people.

But 700 people got taken out of the university through bribery. This is the biggest scandal ever. We feel so sorry for these 700 kids. We have no sympathy for the Asian kids. They'll be fine. The Asian kids aside, though, I mean, I'm assuming that you don't think that that's

cool to bribe your way into... Of course it's not cool. But the thing is, it's illegal, and now that they got caught, and people are going to go to jail. But we know about the Asian thing, and people are fighting to keep it. That's my point. Nobody's saying this is outrageous, let's put these people in jail, let's stop this immediately.

They're saying no. Yeah, Asians are going to be limited, and we can't have all Asians, can we? But aren't they just people? Like, aren't we not supposed to look at their race? Like, who cares how many Asians go to Harvard? And by the way, this is not at the expense of black people. This is at the expense of white people.

Like, why? No, no, no. That's okay. That's okay. But bribery, oh, this is serious. Are we still on the comedy channel? No. Yeah, we're finished.

Good night, everybody. That was it? That's the end of the... That's it. No, you want to say good night? No, I just want... Well, we should end it on an easier note somewhere. Sean, we do a lot of non-direct comedy related stuff here.

Oh, you can't even sing that anymore. We're going to edit this in post. I will tell you something about Michael. This is actually nice. Michael Jackson. We should have talked about this, whether it's okay to play his music. Well, we had a big discussion.

We can't get to everything. So we played, I mean, we did have a good segue to the Catholic Church thing because they're both white. So we played, we played music here on Friday night. Are we done?

No, we're done. Just tell the story. So one of our best songs is Human Nature, Michael Jackson. We played on mandolin and guitar and it's a really nice arrangement and the guy who sings it is like a genius and we and we're like what are we gonna

do what are we gonna play it we're not gonna play it maybe we shouldn't play it i said fuck it let's play it so you're going to the song and you could see it for like 10-15 seconds everybody now she's like looking at each other like deciding whether it was okay. And then within 15 seconds, you realize nobody cared less. Everybody immediately just feel like, immediately they were able to separate in their minds, yeah, I like this song, Michael Jackson's a creep. It was just fascinating

that people had to take the temperature of the other people in the room before they were ready to sit and listen to the song. Taking a temperature is an apt metaphor when discussing Michael Jackson. What kind of thermometer? That was an excellent episode. I don't know what these other

top comedy podcasts are talking about or doing. I cannot believe it's better than what we just presented. And this show deserves listeners by the tens if not hundreds of thousands as far as I'm concerned.

I would like to thank our dear friend Sean McCarthy. Thank you. Sean is playing both ends. He's trying to be, he promotes the comedy business and he criticizes it at the same time.

It's a difficult needle to thread and he's not doing it well. Periel. Thanks for recognizing me. Periel, Periel, doing a bang up job. Thank you. Thanks for recognizing me. Perrielle, you're doing a bang-up job. Thank you. Not according to Noam. Noam, one of your finest performances as far as I'm concerned.

Thank you, David. I thought it was a great show. Good night, everybody.