The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Bonnie McFarlane, Alingon Mitra, and Prof. Sheila Lintott

Episode Date: August 25, 2017

Bonnie McFarlane is a standup comedian and co-host of the popular podcast, "My Wife Hates Me." She may be seen performing regularly at the Comedy Cellar. Alingon Mitra is a standup comedian and frequent performer at the Comedy Cellar. Sheila Lintott is an Associate Professor of Philosophy at Bucknell University. She was one of the conference organizers for "The Ethics and Aesthetics of Stand-Up Comedy," which aimed to bring together scholars and practitioners interested in stand-up comedy from a range of academic disciplines.

You're listening to The Comedy Cellar, live from the table, on the Riotcast Network, riotcast.com. Good evening, everybody. Welcome to The Comedy Cellar Show here on Sirius XM Channel 99. We're here at the back table at The Comedy Cellar, and my name is Noam Dorman. I'm the owner of the Comedy Cellar. I'm here with my co-host, Mr. Dan Natterman, and he's going to introduce our esteemed guests. How do you do? First of all, how do you do? Lisa Lintot, is it? Lintot? Linton. Sheila. Sheila Linton. Lintot. Lintot. You're great at this. No, it says Lintot. It doesn't say Lisa.

I said, did I say Lisa? Yeah. My bad. Sheila Lintot is an associate professor of philosophy at Bucknell. And she has written about the ethics and aesthetics of stand-up comedy. So we'll be getting into that later in our program. We have Lingon Mitra. One of the top three Indian comedians working at the Comedy Cellar today.

That's generous, too. There's you, there's Hasan Minhaj and Nimesh. Is there anybody else that's working here that's Indian? Russell comes by. Russ Peters, he doesn't generally come here. He's Canadian.

In any case, it's the Indian invasion here at the Comedy Cellar, and we're that much more enriched. Thank you for coming. A lingo. And we have with us one of my all-time favorites, Bonnie McFarlane. You've tried to make out with me. I didn't. She has said that on occasion, but that never happened.

On a bus. She did say, though, in later years that she might have gone with it. I don't think I said that. You said, is he going to try to come up to my ride? No, because at my stop, you made a move to make out with me. And then I was like, I got to get off. What was the move? There was no move.

You lunged at me. He lunged. He made me kiss you on the cheek. Oh, well, then I guess, I don't know, when the bus stopped, it went right into my mouth. No, it didn't. It didn't. That never happened. Every guy does that.

It's expected, isn't it? Which isn't to say that Bonnie is not an attractive woman, but that's just not my M.O. But had you invited me up, I certainly would have gone. Now, anyway, Noam. Yes. Happy post-eclipse day. I don't know if you saw it. I did watch it with my kids with the glasses.

There's been a lot of talk about post-eclipse hypochondriasis. People worried that their eyes are fucked up. And I'm telling you, my eyes have been stinging ever since. Ever since the eclipse. Did you look at them naked? I looked at it, not naked. I looked at it through my iPhone selfie camera. And

half the articles online I read said that's okay and it won't hurt your eye. The other half said it might hurt your eye. No, it can't hurt your eye as long as you're looking at the TV screen. I was looking at the TV screen. How could that hurt your eyes? I'm no expert, but how could that hurt your eyes? I'm not sure. I think it could hurt the camera

on the phone. You know what? It does hurt my soul if that's how you watched it on a TV screen. Well, I didn't have on my iPhone screen, but I didn't have I was walking down the street and a doorman let me use his eclipse glasses for a moment or two

but the clouds were covering the eclipse so I couldn't see it anyway. It was actually awe-inspiring. I kind of dismissed it and Robert Kelly actually brought me over all these eclipse glasses and I thought, let me look for a second. And I was not prepared for the majesty

of what I was going to see. It really was amazing. You know, to see the... Were you not moved by it? Well, I only saw a second, and then the clouds came. Oh, no, and the glasses, the clouds, whatever, go ahead. I'm told that a total eclipse is like 100 times better. You know, I mean, it really gets dark, and you can see stars.

That was a total eclipse. No, it wasn't a total eclipse. Not here. Not here. The next one is coming in 2024, and totality, the path of totality is going to go right through Montreal. So I know a lot of you, I know Noam's a big fan of Montreal. You might want to go up there for some poutine and some total eclipse in

2024. I'm booking my hotel room now. It'll be... That's a good idea. Can we ask Lisa, okay, can we ask Sheila... You've had enough eclipse time, okay? Also, animals, this is how dumb animals are. During a total eclipse, they think it's night. I know, the ro how dumb animals are. During a total eclipse, they think it's night. I know, the roosters crow when they listen.

Apparently, man is the only animal that can distinguish night from eclipse. And the flowers close, allegedly. Do they close? I didn't see that. Crickets go... Yeah, quiet. Go crick? No, they go do the cricket thing. The opposite, yeah.

Is it not on? Am I not... It's like they've all got jet lag now. So listen, I want to throw it over. So Sheila is an associate professor of philosophy at Bucknell University. It's like they've all got jet lag now. So listen, I want to throw it over. Sheila is an associate professor of philosophy at Bucknell University. I had a friend, Eileen Kramer, who went to Bucknell. Associate means no tenure as of yet.

No, associate means tenure. And actually, since you booked me, I'm full professor. Whoa. She's a total professor. She's not a partial, but a total professor. And she even resisted the urge to correct you. I did, yeah. That's humility. But the ethics and aesthetics of stand-up comedy.

So what issues do you guys discuss about the ethics and aesthetics of stand-up comedy? Now you have the horse's mouths to test it on. What are you saying about comedy that's worth people majoring? That's worth time? That is worth parents spending their hard-earned money on tuition to send their kids off to college

to be in a room about it. I try not to talk about that at all because of the price of Bucknell. I really don't like to think about how much my course is actually worth when you think... If I send my kid,

what'd you get an A in here? Oh, the ethics and aesthetics are... What's the fucking difference? Anything they learn in college you're not going to use anyway. It might as well be stand-up wisecrackery. I feel like you guys are very hostile

towards your guest right now. Is that? I don't know what's happening. He's hostile to the world. Go ahead. Well, my discipline is philosophy, so that doesn't have a lot of... You know, people in general life

don't want their kids to major in philosophy because they're worried about jobs. So it's not like talking about laughter or stand-up is more risky than philosophy. Are people going to major in Louis C.K. someday? I'm sure there are many theses written. About Louis C.K.? Yes, definitely. Speak of Bucknell grads.

Waiter, can I get a... Anyhow, go ahead. So what are some of the hot topics? How long do you have that in your pocket? So, hot topics. So we organized a conference at Bucknell last spring. And some of the topics,

I'm trying to remember some of the papers. What do you guys argue about when it comes to comedy? Political correctness? What do you think about Bill Maher saying the N-word? What do you think about... Some of saying the N-word? What do you think about, you know? Some of that. Some more sort of like if someone delivers someone else's joke,

what exactly is going on there? Oh, that's all right. Because it's not, well, no, not ethically, but aesthetically there. Like, why is it funny from one person and not funny?

Why is it literally a different joke when it comes out of someone else's mouth? Which, you know, maybe seems obvious, but philosophers like to pick apart the obvious. So what's the answer that you guys have arrived at? Timing?

No, no, it has to, I think, has to do with identity. Well, you could take a joke from somebody, I guess. Well, certain jokes are just, you know, anybody can use them because they don't come from the soul. They don't come from any real place. Right. I think there was like a Seinfeld Louis C.K. switch on some video cast, bow cast, I don't know what you call it. And it didn't work where they tried to do each other's material.

And then there was a paper about. Oh. Yeah. But also just, you know, what is going on, whether it's an art, and I think it clearly is an art. It's absolutely my favorite art. We have no assumptions left untouched in this table. Why is it an art?

Why is it an art? Well, I have personally a very inclusive conception of what art is. Because everything is art. No, no, what art is. Because everything is art. No, no, no, no. Not everything is art. Because it's creative. I mean, I'm not saying it's not. Of course it's an art.

What do you need, Bonnie? I just want a coffee. She wants coffee. I'm ready to rip it out of his hand. Mike! She wants coffee. Can we get a coffee for Bonnie, please? Thank you.

Please, yeah. Yeah, clearly it's art. So, I mean, if you're a philosopher and you're thinking about different conceptions of art and different ways art has been defined, it can often be the case that popular art falls to the bottom and people don't pay attention to it. I mean, Bonnie had that great joke about rather seeing your daughter drown than whatever it was. And I thought, what a great, that's hard. Well, maybe we could. That was.

It was such a good joke. What would I do that about? Maybe we could hear the punchline. It such a good joke. What would I do that about? Maybe we could hear the punchline. It was a roast joke, so I don't remember who I did it about. Was it about Norton's radio show or something? Oh, his radio show. I said, Norton's radio show is so awful,

I'd rather hear my daughter drowning. I stand by that. But, you know, often in academia, there's a... It's so funny, but... A penchant for, like, the high arts. Yeah. Dance, music, visual art, drawing.

And even when it comes to the visual arts, not things like advertising, which I think can be an art, not always necessarily an art. But I think the arts that are popular arts are the most important arts. I mean, Plato, when he... Plato had slaves, by the way. Plato had slaves. So we... And Aristotle also had slaves.

We should take down the monuments, yes. And they are no longer heroes. After all, they had slaves. Well, I mean, I... That's... You're simplifying the argument. We can get to that later. Okay, go ahead.

Thank you, Jan. Yeah, I think it's a mistake to say about someone like Aristotle or Plato that you could just subtract away the ethically problematic stuff and keep the rest of it. But I think there's still things of value that they argued, even though they made major mistakes. I was being extremely sarcastic about the slave joke. Yeah.

But they did. But they did. So did everybody. That's actually a good point. But what is, so like, ethically, you know,

are we supposed to still, I mean, this goes to the same thing. It's like, are we supposed to still like Bill Cosby even though, you know,

in his personal life he did something that was irritating. Irritating? It's just so annoying. It was so annoying. Do you want to talk about this, Dan? Talk about what? The Confederate

Monument? Well, I kind of compared it to Jerry Lewis. I said that I scoured the internet for something funny. Just one funny clip of Jerry Lewis. And I couldn't find him. This guy was considered to be the funniest man in his time. Did you see the article about how the French appreciated Jerry Lewis? I know about the French.

I say, this guy's supposed to be the funniest man in his time, like the 50s, and I could not find anything that he... There was a lot of posts like, he's great, if you don't like Jerry Lewis, you don't get him, but nobody posted any clips. And this shows the difficulty of judging people. Like, how am I supposed to judge Confederates and understand what they were...

I can't even understand somebody's sense of humor from like 30, 40 years ago. Well, there's stuff from the old days that you would find funny. I think you would probably find Abbott and Costello or the Marx Brothers funny. Yes, but Lewis was considered... He got the biggest contract of any star ever up until the point for his comedy movies. I'm saying it's so not funny to me.

Right. But anyway, I guess I'm stretching things. it's so not funny to me. Right. But anyway, I guess I'm stretching things. It's an odd comparison to compare to Confederate But today, Mayor de Blasio said he was thinking about taking down the statue of Columbus

in Columbus Circle. I think people wanted that for a long time. Yeah, people want to change Columbus Day as well, right? So where does, like Trump said, so where does it end?

You're born here? You're born here. Oh my God, don't point when you say that. Oh boy, my God. Don't point when you say that. Don't point when you ask. I can't ask if you're born here. People ask me all the time if I was born here. You can ask, but you've got to do it with your eyes,

like looking up, like, are you from here? I mean, you have an accent. Are you from here? Yeah, I was born in Massachusetts. But your parents are not from here. My parents are from India, yeah. Okay, so what do you think about our past, Jefferson and Washington?

Do you feel connected to them in some way? I mean, sure, yeah. You recognize the good parts of them, but you don't want to extol the bad parts of them. Nobody extols the bad parts of them, but do you feel like those are your founding fathers? Sure, yeah. I consider myself an American, so I would say yes to that.

So you don't want to take down the monuments and stuff? Not if they're known for other things. I feel like in the Confederate story, they're not really known for much more. So that's where you are extolling the bad brats. Yeah, that's a reasonable position. I think that position will not carry the day. But I agree with you. Columbus, I think people just don't know the history as well,

and what they're trying to do is teach the proper history. That's the most important thing, I think, right? To actually teach the facts of what went on. Right. Hey, Mike, can you turn down the music, please? I just don't know how you judge somebody outside the time. Listen, if you had told me that you could take parents and raise them in a particular way,

and they would stone to death their daughters for getting raped or some other sexual thing. I plan to do it. He's honor killing. I would say that you could never make a human being. But the fact is, so powerful is cultural imprinting that you can raise people by the thousands to grow up and stone their own children to death

if they have sex out of wedlock. People in this country will not talk to kids that are gay or transgender. You're talking about your own flesh and blood. I think there's a big difference between... So how are you going to judge someone who grew up around slavery for having slaves? But there's a difference between judging someone as an individual and dealing with a monument to that person and the history. I agree that judging someone out of context, without history.

I also think that people are really complex. I mean, Bill Cosby isn't just one thing. He did a lot of great things. The obvious difference with Cosby is that if you judge Cosby by the time and place that he lived, what he did was reprehensible. Right. He didn't grow up. No, no. Back then you could do that. But the problem still

is that it was reprehensible but a person who seemingly in other aspects of his life was a really good person did reprehensible things and I think we often want to say that rapists or pedophiles are just evil, thoroughgoing, and we can see them coming from a mile away, but we can't.

They're just human beings, and they have other strengths. And there are people that people love. I didn't know she was going to come here to defend Cosby, but I kind of agree with her. I just think judging people is a mistake.

You have tenure now. You have nothing to worry about. You can say anything you want. I say to my students, when you start thinking, I would never do stop because you have no idea what you would do. I have one more question for you. What did you think about this guy in Google? Actually, everybody here might have a thing.

What do you think about this guy in Google who got fired for writing that? I actually didn't read it yet. I need to read that. The manifesto. So he wrote complaining about the person. What did he write, Daniel? The Google manifesto. Are we all familiar with the Google manifesto?

I'm familiar with it, but I... This person who works for Google wrote a manifesto. Apparently there is a large underrepresentation of women working at Google. Most of the programmers are men. And they actually hired a diversity officer, whatever. You know, these corporations, they spend money. He was a man, a white man. A diversity officer?

I don't think so. But anyway, they're trying to make an effort to bring more women into Google. So this man said, well, now, let's take a step back and, well, maybe the reason there's no women at Google has nothing to do with discrimination. Maybe it's women don't care to go into that line of work. Or maybe, even more provocatively, don't have an aptitude for that kind of work.

And that was what he suggested. The same controversy played out in academia not that long ago. Larry Summers at Harvard. And then Obama appointed him to be his chief economic advisor. Right. And within philosophy, my discipline, there's very few women relative to men. And there's a long history of people like Aristotle and Plato saying women don't have the aptitude. Now, for some reason, in pharmaceutical sales, they're always. I'm not sure why.

I guess it's because the doctors like to talk to pretty young girls. Well, listen. I just want to say. Go ahead, Bonnie. I made a documentary called Women Aren't Funny about this very topic. So what do you think about Google? I don't think women are funny. And I don't think they should be in this business.

That's the conclusion we came to. Ling-Ling, you have any comments about the Google thing? A lot of Indian people in technology. No, I think it's fair to ask the question. Which question? Like, is there a difference in aptitude?

I think the problem is when you jump on that line of thinking, then that explanation is probably, like, exaggerated for the reasons why people aren't in a field and the things that you can,

like, fix within a system, those go unanswered. You don't look for those answers as much. But here's the key questions in my mind. Is it off limits to wonder about anything? Are we to assume that, listen, nature is politically correct and God must have distributed all talents and abilities equally among every race and sex, blah, blah, blah. So therefore, anybody even wonders about it.

Or can a guy say, listen, Larry Summers talked about it. A lot of science shows it. I kind of think it might be true. Put it out there. And if it's wrong, let somebody tell me why I'm wrong. And he'll say, oh, yeah, you're right. I didn't think of it that way. Are you really going to talk about chilling debate

when you know that just by, you have to come to the conversation already with the right opinion. You can't come to the conversation. That's exactly correct. And we saw that also when you go online and you say, well, you know, maybe just suggesting that maybe Lee, Robert E. Lee, that is, didn't go to war to defend slavery. He went because he was a Virginian

and he didn't want to go against Virginia. And even that, and even if I'm wrong, and I've suggested that, and even if I'm wrong, okay, so I'm wrong. But immediately you get accused of being a racist or being, you know, somehow not having the right opinion. And I do think that's true.

Well, clearly the erroneous things get into the history. So, I mean, this thing that it can only come with the right answer is kind of not true. It doesn't hold water at all. No, in today's politically correct climate I'm talking about. Maybe in this one tiny moment that it is possible that's true. I'm saying that if I were the head of Google and I had the facts on my side,

I would have written an open letter to this guy. I would have taken apart his arguments. I would have shown him where his science was. I would have said, you know... Well, you would have if you could find evidence that he was wrong. Yeah, I would say, opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one, including Google.

But we're not going to fire him. He's our asshole. We're not going to fire him because he's entitled to his opinion. We're just going to demonstrate why he's a jackass. What was his role? He was a programmer of some sort. I guess he must have not been that important. They fired him.

I assume if he was that crucial, they would have figured out a way to get rid of Larry Summers, too, as the president. Yeah, but all over the country. We all know this. Steve Jobs could have just raped and pillaged, and they weren't going to get rid of him as CEO. I mean, it happened at Uber. Did it?

Well, I don't necessarily know what I'm talking about, Elon. I'm just saying the more important you are in a company, the more you can do anything. Like, you know, take the comedy seller, for example. If I, say, sexually harassed a waitress, God forbid, and it's not in my nature to do that, I'd be out of my ass. But, I mean, what

would Aziz Ansari have to do? What atrocity would he have to commit to not be able to work here? Cosby would still be welcome. to commit to not be able to work here? Cosby could still get on here. Cosby would still be welcome. Cosby might not be because Cosby would probably piss off a lot of audience members if he got on. Well, he's blind now.

He's blind. It's uncomfortable to watch. But the free speech debate is really complicated, and I feel like people talk about it often in, like, soundbites. But, I mean, the idea that you're articulating is the sort of basis of the free speech argument from John Stuart Mill, the idea that all opinions should be aired, especially the ones that are false, so that we can discuss them and shout them down. Yeah, say whatever you want. But the problem is that there's this thing that's happening now that I don't know what to do about,

but people who have opinions that, in my opinion, are false, shout them out, but then they get very upset when they're shouted down. Right. Like they think that somehow free speech means they're allowed to say it and it needs to stand. That's right. You can say it, but I get to say what I want to say. But, Professor, answer me this. When I see a guy fired for wondering out loud whether or not women are maybe not as good as men in math,

and I know that that is the last time anybody will bring that subject up as Google. That's not the last time that... At Google. Oh, at Google. Or at any company. But was it an internal memo? It was an internal memo, yeah. But anyway, let me get my point out. Don't call me Professor.

Call me Sheila. Sheila. I like to call you Lisa. Lisa's fine. Sheila, I told Sheila before the show that I have a joke in which the name Sheila figures prominently. His cousin Sheila.

I've got a cousin Sheila that... Do you know that joke? Can I just get my point out? Relations, I'm guessing. We didn't. We didn't. Is it incest, kind of? I've got a cousin, Sheila, that I... Do you know that joke? Can I just get my point out? Sexual relations, I'm guessing. We didn't. Is it incest, kind of? No, we didn't have sexual relations,

but that's the joke, that subject matter. It's always Sheila for that purpose. I just feel that Sheila is the kind of name, it's kind of funny. I know. I bartended for years, and people would come up and say, is that your, like, bartending name? No. Okay, Sheila. Do like, bartending name? No.

Okay, Sheila. Do people have bartending names? Professor Sheila. They have stripper. I think they're strippers. It's not O'Sheela. It's O'Sherry. No.

No, it's O'Sheela. The song is O'Sheela. Oh, you're right. I'm thinking of O'Sherry by Steve Perry. O'Sherry. But you're thinking of O'Sheela. Two different songs. My bad.

Continue. Sheila, my question is this when I when I see that happen when they fire you and you I I somehow think to myself you know what he probably might have been on to something uncomfortable there and that's why they don't want to let him talk about it because if you if you say something ridiculous you don't need to fire somebody to make them look ridiculous wait you're saying it's true? I actually don't think it's true, and I don't know that there's any

scientific background. I have no idea whether it's true or not. I know that there are a lot of studies which have shown that, and if there was something that women on average do less well than men at spatial relations, I think is what it is, or whatever it is.

But let's say it's not true. Then all he would have to do is say, listen, actually, you're way behind the times because that was, they said that in the 90s, but a recent study came out, and look, it's been disproven. Then why do you have to fire him for that? Oh, he could say, oh, I didn't see that study. Oh, thanks. But it's way more complicated than just

women are good at this, men are good at that. What women are encouraged to do as children, right, or told that they're, through the toys that they're given, that they're good at or are going to excel at, it's cultural and not just sort of this natural. But a lot of the recent science says no to that. Says no. Yeah, we just had Nancy Siegel on last week.

She did all the identical twins separated at birth, you know, and then they correlated exactly. Yeah, but identical twins are the same gender, right? Yeah, but in other words, it wasn't how they were raised. And Judith Rich Harris talks about how the... But it would be interesting to have... What is it, fraternal? Fraternal twins, yeah.

Twins that are male-female separated and see what happens. Look, I don't... But I mean, there's research that shows there's these sort of ways that people can be primed to realize that there are stereotypes against what they're doing. This is the checkmate question, then we'll move on. I always ask it, and I know

it's going to get me in trouble someday, but it's a logical question. If you say any of this stuff, people have a million answers. But if I say to somebody, okay, why are there so few whites on the NBA? Crickets. It is checkmate, move on.

But in other words, racial, any kind of statistical disparities are proof of bigotry unless it's something where we don't want to prove. You know, so, you know, if I was an alien, I came from another planet, I'd say, okay, well, if you can explain this one to me, so you know if I was an alien I came from another planet I'd say okay well if you can explain this one to me then you can explain them all to me if you can't explain this one to me then don't then how can you tell me

I have to assume it's that in this situation it could be but why can't Google be the NBA but why can't Google be just as disparate as the NBA because there's no women at Google and no women on the NBA

we're losing out all over the place in this scenario you're right and you're making a joke just as disparate as the NBA. Because there's no women at Google and no women on the NBA. We're losing out all over the place in this scenario. You're right and you're making a joke, but you see my point. Yeah, I think also there's a danger. Well, I think there's a danger because most people aren't looking at it with as much nuance as you look at it. I'm not looking at any nuance at all.

No, I think you are. I think you are. I think most people will jump on that one idea. Jews love nuance. I mean, everybody knows it. This is pure logic. I'm like, just tell me why I have to assume this. Back to the point that I was making about sort of being primed to think about stereotypes. There's research that shows if you prime white men before they're given a test that has to do with playing miniature golf,

that this is an intellectual spatial reasoning test. They do better than if you tell them this is about athletic ability and vice versa for men of color. You're losing me. You're getting into specifics. And I'm only talking very, very big picture, which is that I think that people should be able to wonder, is it possible that women are better than this, men are better than that?

Larry Summers is no dope. No. Larry Summers, and I don't think he's a bigot. is it possible that men are better, that women are better this, men are better than that? Larry Summers is no dope. No. Larry Summers, and I don't think he's a bigot. And for whatever reason, scientifically, he felt this was true.

55, 45, whatever the... And he was appointed to the head of the economic council, whatever it is. But some schmuck on Google gets fired and loses his career for saying the same thing. That doesn't make any sense to me.

It matters how important you are to the organization. Liberals should care a little bit more about just what matters. There should be a little fairness. Do you want to say something, Lungan? No. Now that the white people are done talking. I agree with what you're saying. I just want to kiss you for saying we should still celebrate Thomas Jefferson.

No, I think I agree with what you're saying. It's just that most people, once they hear like, oh, men are smarter than women, because that's what they hear. They don't hear, oh, there is a specific instance in which men will do better than women because of an aptitude. But women also have a specific aptitude for these things. All they hear is men are better than women and they jump on that. And then that idea grows. I think that's the danger. I don't think it's right that you shut down the conversation,

but I think that is what people are afraid of and has happened in the past. That is what they're afraid of. You're right. Yeah. So you have to teach people the truth. I agree with you. I think that's what should be enforced more than just like, okay, you thought of this idea and you should be fired.

I think most people should consider my point was just that being raised in a society that tells you men are better than this at this than women are. Well, it's potentially quite hazardous and can, but would you rather have the truth with the potential negative consequences of the truth, or would

you rather have a witch hunt to get assuming it's the truth and we don't know it assuming in a hypothetical situation that men are generally better in math than women. Maybe it's true Assuming it's the truth and we don't know it. Assuming in a hypothetical situation that men are generally better in math than women. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. But she's saying that's a malleable outcome. Well, hold on. It's a hypothetical situation.

Assuming that's the truth, would you rather that truth be hidden because it could cause hurt feelings? Or would you rather the truth be revealed? If it's a truth, which I'm not convinced it's a truth. I'm not even convinced it's a truth. It's a truth on the scale of a group, not an individual. Yes, of course.

So, yeah, I wouldn't want my daughter to hear that necessarily. She's 11. She's awesome at math and science. This is her. That's what she loves in school. I don't want her to hear that crap. I think that's a good point, by the way. Are really people that stupid that just because they hear that a group is bad at something, they don't...

I mean, Sandy Koufax, God bless him, he knew the Jews sucked at baseball. But he said, but I'm good at baseball. He didn't say, well, I just pitched a no-hitter, but I must suck because I'm Jewish. I mean, honestly, there's something about it that has to do with personality as well. I mean, not to just completely talk about philosophy only, but coming up in philosophy, there aren't many women in philosophy. And for a period of time, I was majoring in logic in grad school, and some of

my male counterparts in grad school thought that was just funny. Just the fact that I could do logic was hilarious. Well, look, you know what a Lingon, our dear friend a Lingon and guest, had to put up with as an Indian? These guys. I want to be I want to be a wisecracker

for my life. Can you imagine telling that to a couple of Indian parents? I'll take this call with my wife. Am I right Alingon? They were very supportive. Oh they were? Yeah. Oh that's really great. Do you have siblings? I do have an older brother. And what does he do? He's an attorney.

Ah. Point proven. Checkmate. Point proven. Once have an older brother. And what does he do? He's an attorney. Ah. Okay. There you go. Ah. So maybe that. Point proven. Checkmate. Point proven. Once again, I'm right. But the thing is, Alingon wasn't raised

with a lot of Indian role models in comedy. That's true, yeah. But that didn't stop our Alingon. No, indeed. But I think it does help to have those role models.

It probably does. Yeah. To have those role models. But I don't think... How do your Indian roles just feel about it? We just discussed that. You were on the phone with your wife. It probably does. Yeah. To have those role models. But I don't think... How do your Indian relatives feel about it? We just discussed that. You were on the phone

with your wife. On the phone. My parents are very supportive. Yeah, they came to the country. Their whole thinking was like, oh, if you have opportunities in this country that don't exist in India,

you should jump on them. And one of these is pursuing stand-up comedy. Are your parents funny? My dad and my mom are funny, yeah. Are these wealthy people? I don't mean to get too into your business.

Growing up, no. Now they wealthy people? I don't mean to get too into your business. Growing up, no. Now they have a business that's done well. So now they are probably upper middle, but growing up we were like middle lower. Sometimes I hear from these immigrant people that I have known over the course of my life and you try to avoid them as much as you can but sometimes...

Don't help yourself. I'm kidding. Sheila over here, she's giving me the stink eye. Just my face. But sometimes you meet these, and they come from poor families, and the family's relying on them to get them the hell out of poverty.

And they're like, no, no, you're going to be a doctor. You're going to be, you know, whatever, so that we can get the hell out of this neighborhood. We don't have to live with black people next door. Once again, I'm kidding. Well, there are class-based differences in what we hope for our children. I mean, I'm an academic, so I want my children to make mistakes

and explore and be curious, and I'm not worried about their grades. But that's because I'm really privileged at this moment. And because you're not Jewish. No Jewish person would say they don't worry about their grades. That's nuts. Anyway, you just have a daughter. Yes. She has a daughter. Yes. She has a daughter.

Sorry to disappoint you. Yes, I have a son and a daughter. Okay, so then you don't even believe what you're saying. What? Anybody who has a son and a daughter sees drastic differences in males and females, and they know they have nothing to do with it. I have differences in my children, but they are counter-stereotypical.

Wait, is your son older? My daughter's older and she is the boss. Right. Always in every situation. Always. I mean, I see that going on. I mean, if you have a daughter first then you think that your son, there's something wrong with him. I think he's awesome.

He's the sweetest thing. Obviously. Okay. You were taking me seriously. I'm sorry. I've been joking this whole time. I don't know if you know that. No, because they learn so much slower, though, verbally and stuff.

That's your husband you're talking about. I do have a daughter and my husband. Her daughter is, I think, counter-stereotypical. Bonnie's daughter, that is. But she's very aggressive. Very aggressive. Yeah, mine too. She gave me...

I think your dad hates her. I don't hate her. Because she gave him the finger ones. But I like her. I like her. I think she's awesome. She's been doing what we've all wanted to do for years. Well, then do it.

Don't hold back. So I have a little story similar to this. I don't hate 10-year-olds, but she was out of line. My daughter at 11 was having trouble with kids at school, and I told her, you know, she came home, and she said, I'm going to smack someone. And I said, you can't. You can't lay hands on anyone.

She said, well, I'm going to curse them out. And I said, you can't do that either. And she was like, okay. And the next day, the guidance counselor calls me and says, your daughter's been flipping the bird to all these kids. And I was like, that's impressive. You found a loophole. And my daughter is all princesses in pink.

And my son is all superheroes. I tried. There was nothing, even a little bit, in the way we raised them to encourage this. I see it all through the neighborhood. There's something. There's something. I think having kids. So there is something. Yeah, There's something. I think having kids... So there is something.

Yeah, there's something. So now the question is... How much? How does that something express itself as adults? That's off limits. You can't talk about it. But even that something, is it all genetic or does it have to do with how we treat our kids? But that's a question.

And it's not just how I treat them, but how... It's all genetic, I'm sure of it. You can't possibly know that. Okay, but whether it's all genetic or all environmental, we don't know, and that's a question... I actually don't think it's either. But then we should explore that. And if there is a genetic component, that's uncomfortable.

But if a lot of it is environmental, we should really pay attention to that, because if there's a little girl who wants to be a coder or something, she should be able to do that. But we should also pay attention, if there's a little girl who wants to be a coder or something, she should just do that. But we should also pay attention if there's a biological component, perhaps. But really, why? Well, I'll tell you why. Because then, at Google,

if there's not a lot of women working there, we don't get all agitated and say, what have we done wrong? We say, well, yeah, maybe that just happened and nobody's at fault. Yeah, maybe. Well, I think for a lot of things, there's still a huge problem that nobody knows how to fix,

which is that women have children. And that in our culture, women deal with the children. Camille Paglia said, men are not sexist. Nature is sexist. Yeah, I mean, it's like, what are you going to do? I took a lot of time off to raise my daughter. I would never want to do it any other way.

But it does slow you down. You know, in terms of career. But it often is the case that women take a lot of time off to raise their children because they make less money. Well, that's true. I don't know what you're assuming about me right now. But if you met my husband, you'd know. You're right about that. Look, this is why I'd say it's mostly genetic, is because, as far as I know, through the animal kingdom, in every species, there's these, they are born with roles for the male of the species and born with roles for the female of the species, and usually these things don't just come to a screeching halt

when they reach human beings. Usually we have similar things as the animals. You can fight your biology. That's what evolution is. You can fight your biology, That's what evolution is. You can fight your biology. And everything is in a curve. If women are generally more this than that than men and vice versa, they're still like

30, 40, 50% in the middle. They can go either way. It's not like there's all on one side, all on the other side. And that's where... You don't want the tracking. Well, that's where prejudice comes in. And that's what we're all worried about. An intelligent person ought to be able to say, yes,

on the whole, the women are more this way, men are that way. But you can't make any assumption about any individual. Any individual can go either way. Yes, on the whole, black guys may be taller than white guys, but you can't assume that this black guy... Is that true? I don't know. I'm just saying. But you can't assume...

That would be easier to figure out. Or that black guys are taller than Asian guys. That's probably true. But you can't assume you pick an Asian guy that he's going to be tall or short. And if he's tall, you have to acknowledge that he's tall. I've read with regard to height and similar topics...

Alright, penis size. Let's get to it. I've read that that's not true. That the penis size is... Let's ask an expert. Bonnie. Are you get to it. I've read that that's not true, that the penis size is... Let's ask an expert. Bonnie. Are you going to your phone history? I've only ever had sex with Jews. Is that true?

Yeah. It's like, you know how you always just eat... If you only eat diet food, then you stop craving the other stuff. No, I... Yeah, I've been... I love Jews. That's been my dating past as my husband's Jewish. When is the roast going to come up?

Because there was the funniest thing ever. They roasted Rich Voss, Bonnie's husband, and they put on a picture of some guy, some, like, tremendously studly, handsome man who's apparently a millionaire. And apparently Bonnie turned this guy down to go with Rich. I dated him for a month or two.

Which is counter what evolution would tell us that you should do. I like a verbal man. What can I say? So that's the true story? You turned that guy down? I mean, I stopped dating that guy, but not for Rich.

Not for Rich. But just in general. Why is that? You didn't find him intellectually stimulating? No, not intellectually stimulating. Or he didn't go downtown? He wasn't Jewish. No, his sex was good, and he was a nice guy.

He was on the rise. He was a working actor at the time. Now he's famous. He's a famous actor. Well, what's his name? Oh, shit. You've got to tell me after the show. Well, it's in the Rose.

Why can't you say it here? I mean, it's Nathan Fillion. Okay. Who's that? I don't know. But I'm embarrassed to keep saying it because I talked about it on ONA and then it came up in the roast

and now, like, what if he fights? Like, he's like, she's really riding this thing. You know what I mean? It's like, it's embarrassing. Let me tell you about female comics now. And she'll come out and be like, I dumped her.

No, I might explain this to you. No, I might explain this to you a hundred times but apparently it's not sinking in. Female comics love male comics. Well, because once you've been a part of that world where there are the funniest people on the planet, then you want to, how can you not be around that? I don't know. I know a lot of women comics that are like, I would never date a male comic.

And I'm like, I don't know what you're doing with your life then. I don't know how to help you. Well, I think a lot of women say they'll never date male comics because as a practical matter, it's probably not a good idea for various reasons, like dating somebody at the office. Well, if you blab about it, there's problems no matter what you do, you know? You could be discreet. You don't have to be announcing. I don't think I told anybody that Rich and I were dating until we got engaged.

Right, but the problem with dating a male comic comic if you're a female, or dating a female comic if you're a male, is once you break up you're going to see those people. And guess who the next guy that's going to be fucking them is? Somebody you know. I don't know. That never bothered me. I never had an issue. Okay, but that is an issue and that's one reason why a woman

comic might say, I'm not dating a male comic. But they would. I don't understand any profession You can't cut out a whole group of people. Like if you you're going to marry a dentist and you're going to talk about dentistry half the time. That would be awful.

Dentists should marry dentists. Then you guys love talking about dentistry. I don't want to hear about that shit. Who should I have married? to hear about that shit. You know what I mean? Who should I have married? Just someone interesting into music. Silver Friedman, the owner of the... Silver Friedman is a comedy club owner, right?

Who? Silver Friedman. She owns the improv or something like that. She's a female comedy... But there's not a lot of female comedy club owners. No, I should marry Esky. Okay, okay. You don't have to marry... You don't have to marry someone in your direct field, but something where, you know, like it's interesting. My wife told me yesterday, she announced at the table in front of company,

you know, marriage is overrated. And she said it like totally straight face. Who said that, your wife? Juanita's like, yeah, you know, I found out that marriage is overrated. Like, what the fuck? But for her it is because we're sold the bill of goods. Yes, we are I agree

that sounds like an intelligent woman I'm happily married but I agree I'm still angry about it yeah but it's not you should be angry at society then

why would you be angry at Disney you should be happy I should be happy why you're happy that you married a woman with some sense

and that's not and she's not filing divorce papers while she's saying that now it's like she's just talking reality she's okay with this how about now this I don't know she's not filing divorce papers while she's saying that. She's just talking reality. I don't know she's not filing divorce papers. I just know that the first step on the road to filing divorce papers

is coming to a kind of internal conclusion. You know this is overrated. She was sitting there doing our Chase Bank statements. You know this is kind of overrated. I'd be perfectly fine. If she's looking at finances when she says that, you know, this is kind of overrated. And she's like, I'd be perfectly fine. If she's looking at finances when she says that,

you've got a problem. She might be in trouble. I know that. I said to her. Your life might be in danger. I might have said this on the radio. I said to her,

but she got really mad. I said, listen, honey, if I get fire insurance for our house, that doesn't mean that I think we're going to have a fire or I want to have a fire. I said, no.

And if I get health insurance, you know, that's not because I think we're going to get sick. I want to get sick. I said, I never And if I get health insurance, you know, that's not because I think we're going to get sick. I want to get sick. I just want to... I said, I never asked for a prenup, which is like, really.

I said, there's a really nice house right across the street. I'm serious. I said, it's a beautiful house. And I was thinking, because I feel this kind of marriage. I said, maybe I should buy the house across the street.

So just in case, if it doesn't work out between us... Don't wait for it to not work out. My house, get across the street. That way I can be near the kids all the time. Don't wait for it to not work out. Get across the street. That way I can be near the kids all the time. I feel like that's not a pre-match. That is how you save your marriage.

I love the idea of separate houses. Oh, you guys are... Because most people are like, I don't want a part with my money. You got a sign that you'll give me all my money. I'm like, no, you can take all the money, sweetheart. I don't care. I really don't care.

I just want to make sure. How are you going to buy the house? The only thing I want insurance from is being separated from my kids, which is, I think, pretty wholesome. She was so angry about it. It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy, though, the moment you have that, it becomes an option. All right.

Well, Rich was like, we were going to buy this house, and then he said, maybe I should just buy a unit in our condo where we live, another condo. And I was like, that seems genius to me. Then he just, you know, we're within walking distance. And this is why you're still married. Oh, yeah, yeah, no, I think that would be fantastic. Didn't your father know him and Ava? They were married, and they lived separately, I believe.

Is that correct? I will not talk about their relationship on the radio. Okay. Did your wife say marriage is overrated or this marriage is overrated? Big difference. That is a distinction

without a difference. She meant me. I'm her only frame of reference. I apologize if I hit on something sensitive. I just think it is a... No, it's not sensitive. I just won't...

Ava wouldn't want me discussing it. But it does seem like something some people do. Now, Noam's talking about something different. He's talking about if he gets divorced. But you, Sheila, mentioned that you said you like the idea of a married couple living separately. Is that the case with you and your husband? No, it's not the case.

We can't afford it. Yeah, financially it's tough. But also my husband doesn't like the idea. I mean, just sort of anecdotally when... Because you have to clean up after him. I'm sorry. I'm being cliched, but it's true. Yeah, she complained about picking up my underwear.

Well, then why does she have to pick up your underwear? I don't... You used to take care of yourself before she came around. Here's what happens in a marriage. You're in love. Oh, my God. I will do anything for this guy. So you make him dinners, you clean his house

and then the guy's like, good, this is what it is. Why'd you do that though? There's a patent switch. That's on you. It's just like in the beginning when you're dating, you want to pay for dinner and you, you know, you do this fucking,

you do this shit in the beginning. Listen, I never. And then you have kids. And now she's got to take care of those two kids and your fucking ass. That's when the marriage starts to get. Three kids. There's three kids now.

Oh, three kids. Wow. And, but you have to understand something. I'm a devoted father. I sleep with these kids. I put them to bed. I read them stories. I wake up in the morning and make them eggs.

I help a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot with the kids. Just for the record. But you're just, you're fathering your kids. I put them to bed. I read them stories. I wake up in the morning and make them eggs. I help a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot with the kids, just for the record. But you're just fathering your kids. No, I'm... You're not helping with your kids. I mean, you can't babysit your kids. You're fathering your kids. You're doing what a good father does. But not every father does that. No, but you shouldn't get points for just doing

what you're expected to do. I wasn't trying to get points. I'm saying that you're saying as if all the work falls on her. I'm like, no, I really carry my share of the load with those kids. I really do. Now, with the underwear, I said to her, it's once a day if you're lucky. Where do you leave your underwear? I guess.

Why can't they be in the handbag? That's such a good question. What color are they? I was actually trying to think, like, where do I put my underwear? Because I leave it wherever I take it off, I guess. But there was an article, I think, in the Times. It said that the best use of money is to get somebody to do work that you don't want to do yourself. And I said to my wife many times about housework and all that stuff.

Thank God. Business is good. I said, sweetheart, please, don't make me have to do the things that you don't want to do, because I'm not asking you to do them. Anything around the house that's not getting done, hire

a housekeeper or whatever it is to come there and take that, because I don't want you to have to do what you don't want to do. What about sex with your husband? But I... Well, whatever. But I... Like, a lot of my time, I literally spend pacing, thinking, worrying, and I't want to do. What about sex with your husband? But I, well, whatever. But I, like a lot of my time, I literally spend pacing, thinking, worrying, and I just want to,

I'm 55 years old. I don't know how much longer I have on plan. I swear, I think this is the only time Dan's obsessed. I'm obsessed with death. And I just want to do

only what I want to do. And that doesn't mean I want her to do it. I only want to do what I want to do. So if the rest of it is not something she wants to do, I don't even know how much money we make. She has the bank

account. I don't ever put my hands on money. Hire somebody to do whatever you want to do. And that's overrated. A man who tells you... That seems wonderful. Now I'm on your side. You ain't giving her the dick right, I guess. But I never did. Get that motherfucking house.

That's all I can say. For me, the marriage I'm in is really co- parenting, co- keeping of the house. In fact, if anything, my husband does more work in the house, but I still see the value of separate

living. Am I the only one living a traditional lifestyle? Maybe. Do you do the laundry? The laundry is the key. Do you do laundry? Yes. Have you ever had a girl? Do you have anything to contribute on keeping a woman happy?

Well, I think if you do pick up the underwear and you don't pay somebody to do it, that gesture is worth something. It's because it's uncomfortable for you. To do it for her is something that she's going to value. I actually said to myself, I'm going to make a deal with my wife. If you put a hamper near my bed...

You could put a hamper. Well, I have to get permission. A hamper near my bed, I'll put the hamper. And one in the bathroom. I will, because I think she's right about that. I will start putting my underwear in the hamper. However, somehow I think that is not going to make her think now that marriage is underrated.

And actually, I said at the dinner table to somebody, I said, you know, Juanita thinks being married to me is, no, I said, I think being married to me is underrated, actually. I think being married to me is underrated. And. I think being married to me is underrated. And my four-year-old daughter says, Mommy thinks the opposite. Mommy thinks the opposite. Just chimed right in. I think I'm very happy in my marriage, but I think, generally speaking, marriage is overrated.

My marriage, I'm happy. Is your husband a professor, too? Because I know you guys stick together. Yeah, he did the right thing. We met in a professor, too? Because I know you guys stick together. Yeah, he... See, she did the right thing. We met in grad school, but he is a middle school teacher. Okay, but I see that a lot of teacher on teacher. I see it all the time.

Oftentimes in the same school I've seen it. It's actually really difficult if you're... Like, if he was going to grad school for philosophy, if we both got PhDs, for both of us to get jobs in philosophy anywhere near each other is, is really challenging.

I shall give you all the answer and you're a philosophy teacher. You're probably somehow this will ring true with you. Everything is overrated, meaning that everything which we think is great upon repeated exposure loses its impact. Don't look at it. But marriage is not overrated. Marriage is way preferable to what we have

before marriage. I always say my life didn't start until I got married. I know I have a brand where I hate my husband, but I actually love being married. Yeah. It's just nothing can live up to that.

It's practiced and designed in our culture. It could be better. And if you think about really terrible relationships, the way it's designed is almost to keep the violence in the home. Right? It's difficult.

It's expensive to divorce. You're cohabitating. If there's a situation of abuse in a marriage, it's designed to perpetuate that as opposed to break it apart. It feels like I sometimes think every three years you should have to renew your marriage vows. Is it still a good idea? That's a risk. It's also designed to perpetuate love too.

Now, Professor Lintai. You don't know when that three years is going to come up. I've taken in. That's true. It could come up at a bad time. Because it goes like this and sometimes you're the problem, sometimes they're the problem. But it's important though. I mean, we often treat the people that are the closest to us the worst.

We renewed our vows. We went to Vegas in front of Elvis. We renewed our vows with Elvis. I have a question for Professor Lynn Todd. I've been listening to what you're saying, taking it all in, analyzing it, and I can't escape the conclusion that you guys are maybe into threesomes. I mean, I'm just hearing a lot of unconventional shit. I live in central Pennsylvania.

There's not a lot going on. I mean, there's not a lot going on. That's where it's all going on. There's meth. That is where it goes on. There's meth, yeah. There's everything. You go there and...

Where there's meth, there's threesomes. I don't know how people would possibly have time and energy for bringing another person's sexual needs into a relationship. It's more out of logistics than out of desire.

That's what she studied. If your husband's a middle school teacher... He would never. This is a hypothetical situation. He comes home and he says, Honey, if you say you come home... How did we get here? You say, how was school today?

He says, never mind that. I got more important things to discuss. I love you, but I need some new pussy. But you can participate. Well, okay. So I honestly now, thinking about how I would feel in that moment, would be like, okay, have at it, but I'm not going to be part of it. You would tell him to have at it?

I honestly feel that in open, he will. Being married to you is not underrated. In open relationship, because I don't want someone to not be with someone else because of a promise they made 15 years ago in a church that they didn't believe in. But you consider it a betrayal. I mean, you would say go do it.

I would consider it a betrayal if he did it without talking to me. But if he talked to me and he, you know. How about you, Bonnie? Well, I give Rich one second every year to do whatever he wants with whomever he wants. He's up to 11 seconds because we've been married 11 years. 11 seconds is enough time. So, yeah, he hasn't done it yet. Rich is a good man.

Rich Voss, and we all know. As far as I know. Not everybody perhaps knows Rich Voss. Unfortunately, he never got the fame he deserves. He has not yet gotten the fame. I don't know if you've ever walked around with him in New Jersey. He has his fan base. Pretty well known there.

His shtick, he comes off very gruff. He's got the tats. He's all, hey, you know, he talks very gruff. The truth is, he's a lovely man and a devoted husband and a wonderful father, from what I can gather in my observation. Would you say that that's true, Bonnie? I mean, he's got his flaws. But I love him.

I mean, Jim Norton's another phony baloney who everybody thinks is a pervert, and the truth is, he's a decent human being. No, I think he really is a pervert. He's probably a pervert and a decent human being. But, yeah. People are just that. Listen, Olingon...

We're coming full circle now. You're saying Olingon hasn't got enough... We've got to draw him out. Olingon, what really gets you going? Like, what gets you angry that you could talk about on the radio?

Oh, I thought you meant sexually. Let's keep it to subject. Awesome would be not just that. What gets me going? You're like, what? I'm a robot.

I don't really get that mad at stuff. Well, I have a question for Alingan. Yeah. Alingan. Growing up Indian in America. Oh, boy.

I guess this is... You know, there's a new... You got it. I want to get in this guy. There's this guy that was... He made a movie about Apu, the Simpsons character Apu, saying it was racist and hurtful as an Indian. You know Apu from The Simpsons? No, but this is great. I know who he is.

The 7-Eleven owner, the cookie mart owner. Do an impression of him for us. Thank you. Come again. That was your impression of me Do an impression of him for us. Thank you, come again. That was your impression of me? My impression of the poo. So, you know, who's that guy? Hari. Hari Kandava.

He was at our conference. You know, we always thought of Indians as happy as a clam and not, you know, not feeling prejudiced, but do you feel that way? They have a white society, and you feel that somehow there's hatred or anti-racism against Indians or prejudice in India? Sure, yeah, that exists, but I think it gets blown out of proportion.

I feel like blacks have it really bad, Latinos have it really bad. Indians will face it, but it's not to the degree that the other races have had to face it in America. We've done pretty well. You've got positive stereotypes. Well, I mean, there are positive, but there's also negative things that people will do, but it's not like the Apu thing.

Yeah, what do you stand on Apu? Now we're getting some. I think at this point in time, if you look at the Indians that are portrayed in media, we are very, like, there's a good variety. I think growing up, we'd be, like, owners of, like, convenience store owners and taxi drivers. And back then, it wasn't a good portrayal, and we might still carry that thing with us. That's not a bad portrayal.

Well, I think the way it was portrayed was not in England. Criminals is a bad portrayal. I think the way it was portrayed was not in it. Criminals is a bad portrayal. Being portrayed as working class, especially when it's related somewhat to what was reality at that time. But we were also a lot of other things that we didn't get portrayed. Not in the numbers that you are now. Not in the numbers that we are now, agreed, but I think it was disproportionate.

I'd like to get that Harry guy on the show if we could. Did I mention that to you, Calabria? if we can get him because I look at a pool not only is he one of the funniest characters in the show putting that aside there's really nothing but now if it was a Jewish character

well they're all Krusty the Clown and he's conniving and money grubbing but so many Jews are on the writing staff that we let it slide no I think if it was the only Jew that's portrayed on TV is Krusty the Clown, then you'd be like, well, this is a little weird. When growing up, if all we're seeing is Babu from Seinfeld, all we're seeing is a poo, then growing up it's uncomfortable.

But now I think you're getting a good mind. Well, back then you guys were the new kids on the block, you know? You just came to this country. I'm not saying there wasn't a reason for it. I figured you'd be happy just to be included. Well, back then, you guys were the new kids on the block, you know? You just came to this country. I'm not saying there wasn't a reason for it. I figured you'd be happy just to be included. Well, that, I think, is true. Yeah, but I have to tell you very honestly, growing up, it was a long time before I met anybody Indian

who was not doing a job such as you're describing. And then, as time went on, I began to see Indian professionals and Indian computer guys. But that's anecdotal. I think we did exist in a variety of fields prior to your meeting them. There's always something. But anecdotal doesn't... Anecdotal evidence can sometimes be quite compelling

when it involves your whole lifetime in New York City. I met a lot of people who were not owners of convenience stores. Well, that's anecdotal. Exactly. That's my point. I bet you that if you looked at the statistics, you would see that when that first wave of Indian immigration came, whenever it was, like any immigrant wave, they tend to do certain level jobs.

And then the next generation... I think actually you'd find a reverse for Indians, though, because we were coming, a lot of us, in academic fields. Well, a lot of Indian doctors and stuff started coming. A lot of Indian doctors, a lot of Indian PhDs, scientists. My dad came as a scientist. That existed. Actually, Dr. Rathod was my father's urologist, so you're right.

I just see an Indian doctor. But now you see tons of Indian doctors. Then it was noteworthy. Oh, Dr. Rathod, an Indian doctor. But now it's filled with Indian doctors, so give us a break a little bit. It's not all... No, I think a fair representation would contain taxi drivers and convenience store

owners, but it would also contain, I don't know, there's like veterinarians who are Indians, but you don't really see that. No, not that one. Yeah, not veterinarians. I always wonder... Sorry, cross the line. I actually, Keith Robinson was complaining about it, and I kind of really think, like,

this thing about brown people. Oh, now we're getting coming. Like, no, no. Because I know that, I think scientifically and genetically, Indians are most closely considered Caucasian, genetically. Okay. But be that as it may, the fact that Indians have now started to take them calling themselves brown people on stage as if to associate their condition with the condition of the African-American.

You said actually the opposite. I agree with you. I said, you know what, if I were African-American, I don't think I'd really want to see this Indian guy up there, coming from his parents who are doctors, trying to take on calling us all brown people together. It's such a drastically different experience. Well, I don't think we're trying to associate ourselves with black people. But that's the way it feels when I hear it. Don't you want to make themselves a victim or something? I think it's because we look brown.

What was that? Are you saying that when they say they're brown people, they're trying to get a part of a bigger victimhood or something? Maybe it's not what it means, but it sounds that way to me. A bunch of white people on stage listen to a brown person tell jokes. It's kind of what you would... But they don't say black people. Because black people will say brown people, too.

We're all brown people. Not so much. I think you're right that there might be, on the fringe, Indian people who are trying to associate themselves with being the victim of discrimination, though to the same extent that black people and Latino people have faced it in America. But I think for the most part, when we're saying we're brown,

it's because we look brown. We're not trying to cling to some victimhood. I mean, every black person we know... Look, they're brown. It's a fact that they're brown. Yeah. And if one is inclined to judge a man by the color of his skin,

one would look askance at an Indian man. People don't... I don't think so. I've heard askance in a conversation in so long. Thank you, Dan. I think that we do not know, none of us, I think, know a single black person

who has not had like a humiliating, scarring experience with racism because they were black. Like, and sometimes multiple, right? That's a unique experience to them. Like, I've had some anti-Semitism, but that's not been my experience. And I feel like Indians are closer to the Jewish experience.

Like, yeah, I know some people are, but, you know, it's not like, I don't know, do you have trouble getting a cab? Are you worried about that getting hired? Do people watch you when you go into stores? Do the cops harass you? Like, this seems to be a unique experience of the African-American. I've heard people be racist. After 9-11, there was definitely a feeling of

we're not welcome. Because they look at you and thought that maybe you were Arab. Regardless of the reason. In other words, if they knew you were Indian and they knew what Indian was, they wouldn't. But they thought you were Muslim. Again, if they were more nuanced racists, they'd be alright.

But in general, you know what I'm saying. And I'm actually happy I brought it up to you because you're telling me something I'm not proud to say, but I hadn't thought of it, that maybe they weren't trying to associate themselves with the African-American. That's the way I always took it when I heard it. Yeah, I don't think so. I think that's a very small minority that are trying to do that. Because, you know, my wife's Indian. Oh, okay. She's partially Indian. Well, she looks as Indian as that are trying to do that. Because, you know, my wife's Indian. Oh, okay.

She's partially Indian. Well, she looks as Indian as you do. I understand that. Does she call herself brown? Yeah, she calls it. Well, no. She would say she's not white. But if you ask her, are you brown?

She'll say, yeah, I'm brown. But she doesn't define herself as that. She doesn't refer to it on a regular basis. You know, from time to time, if it comes up appropriately, she'll mention it. But I mean, I think when you're talking about a comedian on stage, they're defining themselves more than the average person

because they're like, here's a setup to a joke in two lines that I hope you understand everything that you need to understand for this punchline to work. I'm going to pay special attention from now on when I hear somebody brown talking about being a brown person and what the context was. And then get out your cell phone and you record it and then we'll all meet back here.

That's a deal. And I think the stereotypes are different. I don't think they're trying to necessarily appropriate the racism against black people. I think there's different stereotypes. So they don't get followed in a store, but they might be thought on a plane. I think there is one group of people

in America who have the right to expect the way they are treated because of the color of their skin to rise to the level of a national priority that needs attention, and that's African Americans. All the other bigotries and prejudice that go on.

These are parts of life. You're never going to eradicate them all when you see them. Of course, they shouldn't be ignored. But these are not national priorities as the way black people are treated. What's the point of ranking them in that way when in different contexts, different ones are going to be more dangerous? Listen, Jews do it too. To some extent, it's kind of fun to be the victim in a certain kind of sick way.

There's a certain power in it. There's definitely a power in being a victim. The ecstasy of sanctimony. I call them indignagasms. You can get really angry. You can say stuff about white people if you want, where they can't say stuff about you. There's all kinds of...

Human nature is vile, you know? And we can't deny that people get some pleasure out of these things. And there's a temptation to jump on the bandwagon. And if I were black, this is how it started, if I were black, I'd be like, well, yes, I get it, but, you know, I would somehow be resistant to having other people who happen to be brown appearing to associate their condition with my condition. That was a reaction I had.

Again, I don't want to come into the conversation. I think you're supposed to be able to come into the conversation with the wrong opinion. You can tell me where I'm wrong. Unfortunately, I'm supposed to only feel one way, right? In one way, the African-American has an advantage over the Indian, and that is the Indian has not yet risen to the level of cool that the African-American, and we hope that that happens. I disagree with you on that.

It hasn't happened to the Jews yet either. Well, it's hard to compete with that level of cool that the African-American, and we hope that that happens. I disagree with you on that. It hasn't happened to the Jews yet either. Well, it's hard to compete with that level of cool. I don't like the way people talk about what the African-Americans say. Keith is complaining about it.

Well, you're certainly welcome to come over here. Keith, Keith, we're talking about the African-Americans. Keith, I was talking about when the Indian comics refer to themselves

as the brown people. I was talking about the conversation you had. You want to comment on it? Come on. What conversation? You're afraid? You're afraid? You're afraid?

What? You're afraid to talk about it? Come on, one second. I got to go on. Oh, he's got to go on. Anyway, okay. We'll talk about it another time. So what I'm saying is that the Indians don't have quite the right.

The African Americans oftentimes are the avant-garde of American culture, hip-hop, clothing, and so forth. They have a certain cool to them, let's face it, that the Indian has not yet achieved, but well might. Yeah, yeah, we're working on it. We're working on it, and you, Nimesh, I'll bring it up at the meeting. You, Nimesh Hassan, are certainly making inroads in that area,

and we'll see how that goes. I mean, we're also like a small percentage of the population. Also, you don't have, you know, historically, of course, African Americans are, you can't get more American in certain ways because they've been here the longest and our history

is, in fact, dominant in a certain way by the relationship between whites and African Americans. Aziz is cool, by the way. Aziz is very cool. You think Aziz is cool? He's considered cool. Yeah, he's cool.

Hangs out. Master of none. That's what I heard. He's a cool dude. I think he's considered... Is he considered cool? Cool in pop culture. I think he's...

Yeah, but I think... He has risen to cool. I think Indians will often, like, take on, like, hip-hop culture, too, because we don't really have a strong identity in America. So you'll see Indians, like, dressing the way hip-hop culture, too, because we don't really have a strong identity in America. So you'll see Indians dressing the way hip-hop artists do. Well, Nimesh kind of talks a little.

Nimesh is black, yeah. He talks that way. Nimesh talks that way. Yeah. Hassan is kind of black. No, Hassan is not. What does that mean, kind of black? Hassan from The Daily Show.

Fashion-wise, he's into basketball, high tops. He appropriates. Oh, God. So there is the brown thing going on. Well, I don't know if it's like we're trying to be victims, though. It's like, oh, those things are cool. Like white kids dress like that, too. There are white kids who are black, let's say, in the same way.

Yeah, but they're kind of ridiculed. I don't know. I don't know. I shouldn't have said anything. Everything interesting is just you shouldn't say. Why do you talk? It's true. Do you think I should just cut that whole thing out?

No, that's exactly what we're talking about. But I think in terms of victims, like definitely. How much can we cut out? You want to cut something out about your husband? But in terms of victims, I think like Muslims definitely in America after 9-11 currently do face discrimination. And that's something that Indians don't necessarily, but Muslims who are in America do. And a lot of them are Indian. uh... discrimination and that's something that indians don't necessarily but moslems who

are in america to and a lot of our indian a lot of our pocket and pakistan unless i'm i'm sure you're right on the other hand i was surprised at how little and i have nine eleven i was like really worried for moslems and i was shocked at how little i heard about in terms of real like still the fbi stats so did all the hate crimes in the country overwhelmingly against Jews.

Muslims are like a small blip, overwhelmingly Jews, more than half, I think. Something crazy like that. I didn't know the stats. If you look at FBI hate crime stats, overwhelmingly Jews, and then I think blacks and then Muslims. I mean, they did want to take down that mosque, right? No, they didn't want to put it up, the Freedom Mosque? Yeah, they didn't want to put up a mosque, if that's something. I don't know who the they is, but Mayor Bloomberg supported it.

There definitely was bombings, too, at mosques. I'm sure it happens at synagogues, too, but there definitely have been. I can't remember. I don't think so. And also with bombings at mosques, you never know. There's a lot of bombings. I'm sure there have been everywhere. In terms of bombing at synagogues, I mean, I sometimes do fundraisers at synagogues.

I know that. Thank you very much. There's bombings in... I don't get a lot of laughs. No, we're done. I'm sure there are. Listen, I oppose discrimination against anybody. It may not sound like it, but I do.

But you're also a proponent of free speech. Yes. Well, who wouldn't be? You're Canadian. Maybe you don't get it. We do have a different idea of free speech. You do have a different idea of free speech. You guys have laws against it, right?

Yeah, they do. Yes. Against hate speech, not free speech. Right. Yeah. But that is such a slippery slope. Because that guy Mark Stein was being tried for hate speech. Oh, yeah.

That was ridiculous. But that's Canada. It seems crazy. It is crazy. Canada, the greatest country in the world. But Canada, that being said, Canada is a great country. So their lack of complete free speech hasn't seemed to hold them back that much. So maybe there is some limitation of free speech.

You know what it is? What part of the problem is population? When your country gets bigger, the problems get bigger. And Canada is still pretty empty. I mean, it's got the same amount of people as greater Los Angeles. It's tight. Also, hate speech usually is about race and stuff like that. And Canada is almost all white.

No, that's absolutely right. It's not almost all white? No, no. You've never been to Hong Kong? Well, I didn't see any black people in Montreal. I don't think I saw anybody. A lot of Asians. Except for, like, the comedians.

There's a lot of Indian, Asian. There's a lot. There's a lot of different. There's a lot of Somali. Canada's very heterogeneous nowadays. In, like, the main cities, though, right? Like, in the center of the country. Everyone lives right around the border in Canada. I mean,

yes, where I grew up is far, far north, so it's all like Polish and Ukrainian generations. Dream to come to America and get stupid rich. But I also... That was so funny. But for the most part,

yeah. We got one. You had one, Sheila. I was just going to say, we often talk about how hate speech is about race, but there's so much hate speech that I would call hate speech that's based on gender that we don't consider hate speech. Like what? Bitch, slut, you fucking whore, suck my dick. You know, things like this.

You wanted me? I'm sorry. I thought you were going to me. We let those things slide. I think there's something there. Well, one of the reasons we let them slide, maybe, and Noam, I think, has made this point, is perhaps we just don't feel that the negative consequences

are quite as disastrous. In other words, no one... Right, but we should maybe look at some statistics about violence against women and wonder whether they are. Well, you may be right. I just want to tell you one thing. Should you sing Sheila to go out on that? Oh, Sheila.

That's probably the only song with Sheila in it. Now, Bonnie... No, I think there's like a Smith's Sheila Take a Bow. Is that the Smith's? Could be. You are a cool professor. You know the Smith's. Hate crimes motivated by religious bias.

By religious bias, 51.3% were anti-Jewish, 51.3%. 22% were anti-Muslim in the country. So, just for the record. I'm not going to even ask. Imagine if we had blown up the World Trade Center. We don't even put gender in there. It doesn't even count. Well, that's just religion.

No, it's religion. Right, but I don't think there's any. Here's gender. Single bias incidents. 56.9% were motivated don't think there's any. Here's gender. Single bias incidents. 56.9% were motivated by race, ethnicity, ancestry. 21.4% religious bias. 18% sexual orientation. I'm surprised that's not higher.

That was higher when I was a kid. 2% were gender identity bias. And 0.4%, 23 incidents were motivated by a gender bias. That can't be right. Towards men. Yes, towards white men. It depends how you look at it. Well, like domestic abuse,

does that even matter? Because there's more than 23 incidents. Well, if you want to call domestic abuse based on gender bias, I mean, I don't know. Yeah, that's not considered gender bias, I don't think, in these statistics. Yeah, like street harassment can't be included in there. That would just be considered. There's no way.

Everybody, listen, the reason, everybody has a mom and a sister and girlfriends, whatever it is, so people don't walk around hating women. Really? But people do walk around with a sadistic streak, and a woman who's often weaker than a man, on the receiving end of it,

will be called a bitch and a slut and all that stuff. So how is that not hating women? I don't know. It's a philosophical, epistemological question. Because it's more just hatred lashing out, I think, at whoever's smaller and weaker than you. That's why there's so many hate crimes against Jews. I'm married to one.

All right. Dan, you want to say goodnight? Say goodnight, Dan. Sheila, we thank you for coming. Lingon, as always. Wonderful to see you. Bonnie, especially wonderful to see you. Thank you, Dan.

I was buying guests all the time buying one of my favorite guests ever we did have that moment on that bus my eyes are still sore but it's probably

just I'm overthinking it and it has nothing to do with the eclipse I didn't even talk about the New Yorker article that came out today about the Comedy Cellar

we'll do that we'll talk about it next week I didn't know there was one we'll do that next week tune in next week for the New Yorker

article that and more on the Comedy Cellar Show. We'll see you next time. Good night, everybody. Thank you, guys. Thank you for having me.