The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Bonus Episode 3: Dan Naturman, Periel Aschenbrand and Dov Davidoff

Episode Date: June 15, 2020

Bonus Episode 3: Dan Naturman, Periel Aschenbrand and Dov Davidoff

I don't see it yet. This is Live from the Table, the official podcast of New York's world-famous comedy seller. Why don't you do that when Addie signs on? Because we roll the guest in. I see what you're saying. I got you. Okay, all right.

It's like a party going on. People come, they go, they go. I got you. I thought you'd enjoy your intro. You have a good intro. Well, we can read. You're a pro. You're what's known as a professional.

You're a professional broadcaster. This is live from the table. Podcast of New York's world famous comedy seller. Coming at you on Sirius XM 99. Raw dog. And on the Riotcast podcast network. This is Dan Natterman. We're doing a special episode with Perrie L. Ashenbrand, our producer.

Dove Davidoff. And Dov's mother will be joining us shortly. We look forward to it. Dov, you look like you're in a new house. No, no, no. I'm in a motel room. Oh, there's my mother right there. Okay. Addie Balfin

has arrived. Addie. I guess for Adelaide, but I don't really know. Is it Adelaide? Addie, do you hear us? Dan, not only do I hear you, I see you. Where the hell are you? Let me address that.

There's apparently some people that have watched this on YouTube that think this is my house. This is a virtual background. It is a house from the Hollywood Hills somewhere in Los Angeles, California. It's not my house. It is a virtual background.

I want to see your house. Well, my house is unimportant. My house is not as nice as this, so I leave this up. No, no. This looks horrible. It looks like the 1%. Yeah.

I have nothing against the 1% as long as they earned it legally and pay their taxes fairly. I have nothing against the 1%. We're all the 1%. We're the 1%. We live better than the 99.9% of people that have ever walked this stinking planet. So we're the 1% in that case, in that, in that, you know, regard. Anyway, Addy, your,ie, your hand is blocking the screen. Oh, oh, okay. So, so where should we start this week?

I did want to, first of all, welcome Addie. I haven't seen you in a long time. Well, tell her what this is, Dan. Oh, you don't know what this is? The Comedy Cellar Podcast. You haven't, you haven't said anything. You haven't introduced anything. You haven't said anything. You haven't introduced anything. You just said raw dog.

You do your introduction, Dan. I already did my introduction. No, but you didn't really do a full introduction. I did a full introduction. Okay. But I'll introduce Addie more, I guess, in more detail. Addie Baufman is the mother of Dove Davidoff, as I said. I think I said. And she is a psych of Dov Davidoff, as I said. I think I said.

And she is a psychotherapist, a former cult member, I believe. At least that's what Dov tells me. No, no, no. You don't have to. Yeah, well, yeah, certainly. There was a cultish aspect to it. No more so than is going on in our mainstream kind of media narrative right now. I mean, something of a cult. Anyway, go ahead. She is also an amateur mosaic tile artist

and welder. Mosaic, yes, and welder. Bike riding, nude surfing, and whale watching. We welcome Addie to our program, to comedy seller podcast bonus episode thank you for coming addy good to see you it's been a while anything new on your end addy uh i don't

have a home well why is that well i i um i feel like a gypsy i i was taken out of New York City on March 10th because my dove's brother was concerned about how old I am, my age, and my HIV status. I'm HIV positive. So he thought I should get out of the city. So I have been out of the city and, yeah, surviving out of the city. Where are you? Right now I'm in.

This is Perry L. Hi. She's the producer, co-host, and she's an author as well. And she's a card-carrying leftist hailing from Queens, but deeply curious on an intellectual level and a dynamic young lady who's added much to this whole broadcast because this animal with the orange hat won't cut his hair. But go ahead. What's her name again, Dov? What's her name? Perrielle. Oh, Dov said I would like you, by the way.

I've heard a lot about you, so I'm excited to finally see you in real life. So, Orion, that Dove brother, wanted you out of town, safe from the virus. Well, yeah, yeah. So, I went with him up to his home in the Berkshires, but my daughter-in-law was having a really hard time with me being there. And... She's Orion's wife, not Dove's. Yes, Orion's wife. doves yes orion's wife orion is done and so it was like it came to it was either her or me and uh so orion would brought me to a good friend in new jersey and

kindness of her heart i am now in a beautiful beautiful little town on a canal on the Delaware River and missing New York City terribly. Well, what went on between you and Urian's wife? Oh, Dan. Oh, my Dan. Dan, I wish I knew. They said I was too intense. Well, she said I'm a big presence. I'm very intense. I'm very opinionated. We lost your sound for a second.

Oh, my daughter-in-law was concerned about my big presence, my intensity, my loud opinions, my lack of boundaries at times. And I can't disagree with any of the above. It's just that, I don't know, I thought maybe during a pandemic there would be all this family healing. A little bit, some feedback, Addie. Maybe, I don't know, it's... Oh. Am I talking through?

Just don't touch the speaker, Ma. If there's like a speaker near your hand, sometimes there's a little receiver on the computer. Are you using an iPad? I'm using my iPad, yeah. Is it on a desk or is it on your knee, on your lap? It's on my legs. Well, that's the problem.

I think you should put it on a desk or some solid surface. Okay. I think that would be of benefit. All right. Okay. So, Dan, my friend just laughed because you really got to a real difficult point in my life right now. Actually, the most painful part of my life. Your daughter-in-law?

Yeah. Yeah. I have a mother-in-law and I can empathize I think that it's inherently sort of thorn and I have a son also so I can really empathize with Both sides? Well I don't know I mean you know I have a little boy. And so I understand that, you know, from my mother-in-law's perspective, you'll excuse my language, but you know, I'm probably some cunt who stole her son. Well, you know, I mean, you know, on some level, I know it's more complicated than that. I'm, you know, simplifying it, but I think it's an inherently thorny, and I can certainly

empathize with you because I imagine that, you know, he'll someday find some bitch and, I'm just kidding. But, you know, it's, it's a... Addie, can I, can I bring the conversation around to Dove only because this is a this is a we're trying to focus on the on the main characters here from this podcast sure you do anything you want I'll try I was just wondering what your thoughts were on what I can think of the haircut if we're gonna do anything I want I'd like to be

he hasn't cut his hair in three months this animal he wears a hat everywhere he's with his hat i cover up i cover up my hair just like i cover up my feelings everything i just put under i sweep everything under the rug figuratively and literally but i wanted to talk about dove's marriage i think i'm i'm i'm very upset by what's going on it was jessica's birthday yesterday dove's wife's birthday or 30 i know i know i started waiting for her you know what i i didn't feel it was appropriate for me to wish her a happy birthday because her and dove are splitting up and i feel like well i've got to go with dove and that means that I have to cut off all contact with Jessica, including a happy birthday. Wait a minute. Whoa.

Have you discussed this with Dove? No, I'm just going by what I consider to be protocol. No, listen, but it's all contextual. There are times where I certainly, I've had that experience, when Brian and Amanda and any number of friends, and especially given if the person's in a sort of chaotic relationship and the breakup is often, it takes place with a lot of, there's a lot of anxiety and negativity and drama over the course of the breakup. It's often I try to,

you know, create a clean break. In this case, since we have a kid together and it's not, it's not super volatile. I find her to be a relatively impossible human being to communicate with, but I certainly don't think that, you know, a happy birthday would be inappropriate. We did have a breakup in Los Angeles where a friend invited her to dinner with these other guys. Like that kind of thing I felt was inappropriate because it come back. The ball gets hit back into my court. And if Jessica had a better read on things and I had more faith and trust in her ability to read the tea leaves in a social or logistical situation uh then there would be more leeway but certainly whatever

yeah birthday wait wait wait a minute I'm getting a little confused is the long story short oh birthday's okay um I I've decided to park we've figured out a way to split and and still have i i need contact with my son you know on a regular basis it's not going to work for me oh you know what you know what's going on here too the internet's pretty bad here and i have trouble all the time so that could be the problem I'm sorry. You're coming in clear now Addie so we'll let you know if there's a problem. So Dan did you hear that? That it would have been okay for you to wish Jess a happy birthday? Well yes I did so noted for next year. It's too late now. But for next year, that is duly noted. What do you think, Addy?

Do you feel any loss? You've lost a daughter-in-law. I mean, the other daughter-in-law, apparently things aren't going great, but with Jessica, you had a pretty good relationship, I think. Addy is frozen. Addy is frozen over there. Yeah. It's an unfortunate position to be frozen. Her mouth is like open and she's frozen um addy is frozen over there and yeah it's an unfortunate position to be frozen her mouth is like open and she's frozen yeah no i could think of a better way to be frozen that ain't the way to go if you're gonna freeze don't freeze like that yeah that's um she'll come back yeah she'll be back i have a feeling she will be yeah yeah she always does she always does

uh she's in tremendous condition you know she walks up and down when this COVID thing hit, and they shut the elevators in a building. She walks 20 flights. 2-0, 20. She's gone. By the way, we should mention she mentioned she was HIV positive. That's kind of like the kind of thing you can't just mention and just go out of your business.

You kind of have to address it. She got it. She's in tremendous condition. It isn't the end. She got it from just in tremendous condition it isn't she got it from uh just a man she was dating and and right and a heterosexual relationship yeah you can ask her yeah addy your hiv status you mentioned it a few minutes ago well no wait wait wait are we skipping over jessica that no we're gonna get right back to jessica but you had mentioned hiv and i just it just feels like something you can't just casually gloss over it's

yeah yeah okay like it might need to address it a little more fully okay but I believe you got that just from a guy but you can yeah it was just uh yeah

it was the third date fourth date with a guy. And let's see. To tell you the truth, it was a little boring. So I thought maybe sex would make it more interesting. Bang! There you go, Dan. Unfortunately, you haven't had enough of those occurrences.

And I actually asked him to use a condom. then unfortunately you haven't had enough of those occurrences and uh we use and i actually asked him to use a condom and uh we used a condom i i don't know what happened well and it's when i was 60 years old and at that time that was like 13 years ago there were actually a lot of elderly women who were becoming hiv positive because they were dating men who never revealed their status their hiv status um but it's just it's incredibly unlikely the odds of that happening are so thin. And it's been confirmed that he had it? You were in touch with him and he did? Well, it took a long time, Dan. I think I was in a state of shock when I learned that I had it.

I became very ill within about three weeks of contact with this guy. And my doctor suspected it was him who gave it to me and so I tried calling him to find out he wouldn't ever answer his phone and then I don't know without I just don't remember all the details but he lied a lot at first and, the only other person I had had sex with in a couple of years was someone who went and got tested and was negative. So my HIV doctor kept telling me. Well, she froze again. This was my most recent sexual contact.

And I went to his place. I knew where he worked. So I actually went to his place of work. And they told me he wasn't there. I left. five minutes i got a phone call from him he threatened to call the police on me if i didn't stop calling him and that's when he i think he was really afraid i was going to press charges does that make any sense is that makes perfect it's a crazy story but it makes sense yeah it's a pretty crazy story but so anyway so yeah so getting back and you know for many no go ahead go ahead dan no i thought i just i i wanted to get back to jessica and okay you know maybe maybe unless

there's more more more uh juice to you know to right and by the way i want to say something to i i it's an unusual name so i can't remember it perry l perry l yeah perry l i wanted to you know dan is bringing up dubs soon to be ex-wife yes and i just want to say as a mother-in-law my experience with her was so so different yeah I felt really embraced by her we were very close I actually used to like put her as one of my five best friends. It was a wonderful relationship. Well, she still can be. In many ways. Yes.

Yeah. And we still stay in touch. And unlike Dan, I did feel comfortable wishing her a happy birthday. Well, I was with somebody for 10 years before I was with my current husband, although I wasn't married to my ex. And I was very close with his mom, too. I mean, I'm still friendly with him. But, you know, I don't think it's, you know, it has to be that way.

So, Addie. Ariel met her current beau banging away on about somewhere in israel at a wedding with no intention of being involved in a in a in a relationship like a lady that's true harry l has harry l is what we call they used to call it a slut i never liked that word i never liked that word i thought it was figurative and judgmental we We don't, I don't use, I never use it, but people don't use it as much anymore. Now we say sex positive. Sex positive. Sex positive.

Well, I mean, the thing is, is that I was a real tomboy. I mean, in certain ways, I kind of still am. And I couldn't, it seems like, you know, when I started having sex when I was, you know, a teenager, it was like these guys would just have sex and then just walk away and I didn't understand why we couldn't do that also I'm with you and look what happened to you so Addie does it make you given given your close relationship with Jessica, how do you feel about this impending divorce? Well, I think for a long time now, you know, Dan, I haven't seen you for a while.

And I'm sure that over the last many months, you and I would have been talking about it. That would have been nice. I miss you. Oh, well, that's lovely to say. I miss you. So much. I have a better relationship with Dove's mom sometimes. Well, I don't want to get into my family, but. Well, you know, you know, Dan, it always strikes me when you say you sit, you cover up your hair, you cover up your feelings.

Right. You know, to tell you the truth, you've never struck me strongly that way. I feel like whenever I get together with you, you get to the heart of the matter. You may not. Yes, I get to the heart of the matter when it's your life and your in-law. That's true. But when you ask a question about me i'll deflect the shit from here till next tuesday that's right that's right okay oh yeah

no he'll get to the heart but i'm happy to talk about your your hiv and your heart of it dan you already brought up your quandary about dove's uh wife jess and how you handle your relationship with her, because she's always cared about you very much. Oh, really? Yeah. Yes. Yes. Oh, this changes everything.

This changes everything. I will give her a ring. But do you feel any loss from from this um you know this this development you know even though you're still in there but it's not quite yeah no it's not um god i i, you know, my major concern when I was first hearing Dove talk about how unhappy he was, I was surprised because I love Jessica. And yet I found myself really concerned about Dove's happiness. And the more I listened to him, the sadder I felt for him. I also heard him having a lot of insights into his own immaturity at the time when he you know chose this person i you know it along along the way

am i talking too much oh no i didn't involve but good did you freeze again i i all i from the get-go had questioned how good they were i had questioned how good they were for each other. I felt like sometimes Dove mistreated her and was harsh with her. And then I felt like her own way of dealing with it would set off things. I don't know. I always had my concerns. So I wasn't shocked. I think that shocked I think that there's no shock

but I've always been really impressed with how you guys seem or you know hearing from you you seem to have like a real kindness or generosity of spirit and you seem to be able to share a space with emerson in a way that's i don't know really about gov or addy well how would i be talking about addy oh i was enjoying it perry I thought you were talking about how kind I was. Oh, shit. Okay. You too. I don't know what...

Oh. I don't know what... Wait, wait, wait. Wait, I think Perrielle was picking up on something. And that's really important here. Is this interesting to people to get too heavy into this no i think you know periel no i think she was picking up on something really important that i i want to emphasize and that is i've seen dev work really hard at trying to make this a good divorce.

That they stayed, they worked on it for many months in therapy. It's gonna be such a great divorce. So sweet. I listen, we'll work it out. I listen, the people, you know. I mean, I don't know what Dove's... You'll be the arbiter of what...

I feel Dove's... I don't want to go as far as to say he's making a mistake. But I don't think he's going to find what he's looking for. If he's looking for somebody... You're out of your mind. You don't understand what it's like. Wait, wait. Being in a relationship under that context,

you don't know because you just know it socially. I'm telling you, there, wait. Being in a relationship under that context, you don't know because you just know it socially. I'm telling you, there are tweaks. It's like being in a funhouse. There are these different things that happen. It would take a while to describe it. I didn't just hop because, you know, a thing or two didn't add up. I've been through three therapists. It is a strange, it's like a fun house. As you

walk through the hall of mirrors, things begin to shift. The images still are representative of the person walking by the mirrors. It's a very odd place to be. She's a nice human being. We got nothing in common. I thought, you know, that there would be aspects, shifts. I'm not talking about suddenly, you know, somebody becomes a physicist, you know, but they never had any interest in math. I'm talking about a way to mitigate the more pathological parts of your personality to the degree that you could then sort of move through life without a tremendous amount of effort.

I've had enough of the anxiety of the hall of mirrors and the reality testing. Please, I could give you examples. I don't want to go bad on you. She's a nice person. We're going to work it out. We'll be good co-parents. I'm going to park an RV in the house on her driveway. I'm dead serious. I just worked this out with her. I said, this is what it's all contingent upon. I realized that coming in and out of Manhattan to be with my kid is going to be challenging sometimes because of traffic. I don't want definitive little non-traffic windows I got to jump through. So I decided to get an RV.

And you're going to park in their driveway. Well, that sounds interesting. interesting oh it sure is interesting and i'm the first guy to think of it i'm gonna park an rv you understand go ahead go about your business go date go do whatever you i could drive out from the city at night i get my sweet sweet recreation video i wait until morning i get to see my kid i spend an hour or two i could take him to school i could take him to a game wherever he needs to go then i could drive back to the city after he goes to sleep and now i got a place to stay in my rv you understand that rv will never go anywhere i've never wanted to be in an rv but this i'm excited about because it's a solution

i'm gonna i'm gonna get a sweet, sweet RV. Everybody will understand then what a great idea it was. Years from now. Years from now. Addie, we have you. Okay, wait, wait. You know what I'm saying?

We have Addie. We had her on two Sorry You know what Oh shit It's like a house angels party It sounds like an acid trip That was trippy baby

Okay Okay I took her I just now Left her on my iPad, Perrielle. You're good. I'm so sorry. Oh, you're fine. Sorry is one thing, but you've ruined the entire episode and we have to throw it out.

Sorry. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I think I do find it. We should open up the conversation of more general matters. There you go. Do you want to talk about,

do you want to hear Addie's perspective on the events of the week? And all that. You know, I've, I've, I mean, sure we can, we can look, we can get into, get into the racial justice thing. Well, I want to follow up here with something that just happened that I noticed. Go ahead. And that was Dan. Dan, when you said, oh, you sounded rather hopeless that Doug was going to find what he's looking for.

He doesn't know what I'm looking for. I don't even know what I'm looking for. Well, then I guess in that case. In order to not find the destination, you'd have to have a destination, for God's sake. I'm not headed to Disney World. Fair enough. But Dan. Mike grows his hair out, thinks he knows everything.

He's wearing a backwards hat like a 13-year-old kid from Bensonhurst. Tell Dan just quiet down well I'd like to hear more about what Dan thinks why he thinks that that you might not find what you're looking for he doesn't know what I just I just want to be sensitive to the audience to do you know okay you know this goes out on like serious real briefly, I would just say that Jessica may not be the woman for Dove. That's fair. And if Dove says that she's not for him, he would know better than I would.

But the point is, I'm not sure he's going to find whatever it is he thinks is what he's, who would be good for him. I think it just may well be, tragically, that he is condemned. And it's me and you, baby, right until the end. We don't need, bro. We go, we raw dog it. That's called singlehood right until the end. Well, it may come to that now. It may. And that'll be better than what I've been dealing with. Okay, that's fair. But I've run the numbers. I've run the numbers i've run the numbers this is not a rash a reactionary decision i process i process this with three uh different uh a couple psychologists

for god's sake i mean over the course of a few years and then even made significant sacrifices by buying a house in the suburbs i got leveraged out of where i should have been you understand leverage believe me i've been through the ringer here. This is not something that, you know, there was some low level, you know, reaction to a situation and I hadn't owned my own sadness and culpability. And believe me, this is a high level divorce. I'm going to have an RV. Well, the RV, I didn't know about the RV when I made that statement. You didn't know about the RV, but now you know. Now you know.

It's going to be so, so sweet. Hey, Jessica's new guy. I'm just here with the RV in the driveway playing with my kid. Don't worry about me. And this RV ain't going anywhere either. That's kind of me, too. Will you be parking the RV at the Comedy Cellar when you come into the city for your spot?

RV parking at the Comedy Cellar. RV parking, baby. You've always wanted a place to go right afterward. You meet a girl at the bar at the Comedy Cellar between downtown and the Upper East Side where you live. Anything can go wrong. You get an RV right outside, your probability goes through the roof, Johnny.

Now you're talking, because now we're going to have an after party at the Comedy Cellar. That's what we call recreational vehicle. It ain't all camping grounds with me, Dan. But you could actually, I mean, it's actually kind of genius. Tremendous.

Nobody's ever done it. It's either totally psychotic or pure genius no it's it's i think it's brilliant well i mean you're not going to drive it into the city you're going to leave oh no no no no never never leave it there i'm going to leave it there and hook it to the house i've already i've already googled on where to take what's called black water i didn't know what i would do with the stuff that goes into the toilet. But then I found out that there are all these campsites and you hook up a pipe and you dump it in every few weeks. And then I can go out and be with my kid and not be in her space. And I have to, you know, I figured in the city, the logistics are getting tight.

By the way, Perrielle, how is life going outside of the city for you? Well, you know, I really, you know, I'm with, I'm with Addie. Like,

I'm also homeless and I feel like a gypsy. So. That's why you need an RV. And I plan on selling. Can I tell you something? There's a fucking RV sitting in the driveway

of this house that belongs to my friend who owns this house. I love it. I've always wanted to sleep in an RV. Hey, Dub, Dub, you can get a compost toilet for the RV. Excellent. Let's move on from this subject.

Hold on now. I mean, compost is important to our listeners. A lot of our listeners are farmers. Addie, here's the thing. You know, in our world, we're kind of told that, and maybe it's correct and maybe it's not correct, that the life you're supposed to live is that of marriage. Hopefully the marriage lasts and monogamy,

but maybe, just maybe, we're not all built for that. Maybe Dove is, we know that I'm not, but maybe Dove is also not all built for that maybe dove is we know that i'm not but maybe dove is also really not built for that he he may well be a great father and i and all evidence suggests that he is but i wouldn't i wouldn't hop on that i would like to be able to be easy to sort of you know um i don't know sort of rationalized an innate disposition that would allow me to make peace with my own failures. I failed in reading the tea leaves. I'm not that angry with myself. I didn't fail in that. I got involved with an addict and then thinking,

no, she's going to clean up. And then she turned out to be an addict i failed to read there were there was enough going on that i did not read accurately and so for that i'm responsible but i wouldn't chalk it up to oh it's not you know who i am i i think who we are is more layered than that i don't know that i think people use that too quickly as a default you you know, to go, well, you know, relationships aren't really for me. I don't know. I think Dan is on to something, though. He's on to plenty. He's on so much.

He's on something. Well, I think that. He's on antidepressants. He's got a backwards hack in a large house, but he's really in a small house. Dan, all right. But I think he's on to, to like how this culture stigmatizes divorce okay yeah and so um you know what i just okay and i want i want to speak to that because you know i've been single for well over 42 years so you have some experience in the matter. I feel there's a real stigma

against being single. And Dan, I wonder if you experience this, even within your own family. Do they want you to get married? That's a good question. Let's watch him try to weasel out of that. No, I haven't. In my own family, I think they of course, my

parents, I have two sisters and they have husbands and children. So in terms of of course my parents i have two sisters and they have husbands and children so um in terms of grandchildren my parents have grandchildren um and i think they basically have written me off i i i don't want to i wouldn't term it like to phrase it like that i would just say i don't think they're utterly overly disappointed but more which what's more helpful for me is i i'm in a community i think I have to go to the attic. It doesn't do this when I do a session. Hey, you know what? You kind of interrupted me there.

I know, I know. I'm going to go up to the attic where I think the reception might be better. You're fine. It's Addie Balfman, not Attic Balfman. What was that movie where they would chase the witches outside and they tried to get everybody to believe the witches were there? You know, it made a lot of money. Blair Witch. She looks like she's doing a Blair Witch.

Now she's in the attic. Yeah. You were fine where you were, but in any case, if you prefer the attic. Addie, the thing is, in the comedy community, we're sort of in a world where being single is not that stigmatized.

So you have, say, Oh! Just to throw some examples out there's a mr todd barry for example uh he has a cat which uh you know and you got a mr maneve you got a mr griffin you got you got lots of them you got a mr david attell oh yes you know um has has always been single and he's in his mid-50s. So, yeah, Mr. Greg Rogel. I mean, there's quite a few people in my position so that it becomes less weird.

Oh, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. You would feel things more acutely, you know, if you were a politician or, you know, you were a... I'd be Lindsey Graham. They'd be saying I was gay. If you were a partner at a conservative law firm, they would say you were homosexual, which still you have not. Well, I don't think you are.

I haven't necessarily proven that I'm not. You don't need to see proof of that. I mean, you know, in any definitive way, I'm not. But I don't know that if one didn't believe me that they would. How does one prove a negative? Yes. But yeah, if I were like in a corporate law environment where everybody's married or at least was married. Right, right. The lifetime bachelor doesn't really, you don't see that as much outside of stand-up where it's very, very common indeed. And fortunately for the rest of us, instead of being consumed with the responsibilities of fatherhood and being a husband, you can devote all of your excess energy to racial justice. Well, wait a minute. Now, you know what?

I am now going to go back to... No, no. I'm going to go back to my iPad because I'm up in the attic. I think it'll work better and I can see you better. So I am going to try to do that. So what do I do, Deb? I go to my email? Well, I think you're fine as is, Eddie. We hear you fine. We see you reasonably well. The lighting is... She thinks she can't see us.

You'll have to cut this part out, I guess. Well, this is part of Zoom. This is part of the new... It's part of the game, baby. I was going to try to pull up the Comedy Cellar lineup, but there is no lineup because if we're on hiatus if we're on pandemic hiatus just to go through and see how many people

are lifelong bachelors. Yeah no it's a good question. There is no lineup. Well you know Dan I guess another point I thought should be addressed is I felt that Dove was getting a little bit on the defensive when you said that you thought he might not find what he's looking for. I know what you mean. No, look, I could explore that in a more gentle way if I thought it would make engaging listening for people. But something we can discuss in the Berkshires with the new children after the reconciliation. You know what? Maybe Periel was on to something, you know,

because I'm close to both of my sons and, um, I don't know. I've kind of, I don't know. It was complicated. Hey, Dan, what would you think you, you're pretty good at sensing things about people. You've met Denise, haven't you? Indeed. Yes, I have. And so what do you think the problem might have been? You know, I've met her, but I, you know, it's weird for me to hear that you're perceived as intrusive and intense, but that's not my experience. But again, I only see you when I see you. So how do I know what you're really like in that situation? But so no, I have no, I can't really speak to that. Okay. She seemed nice to me, you know,

Carmel skin goddess that she is. It's hard to share a small space, particularly with your mother or daughter-in-law, right no you know what periel i actually made my own little house out of part of the chicken coop and then you hear that she lived in a chicken coop i can't imagine why she would have taken issue with something like that well i could see if the chickens were upset about it but what's denise there were no birds mother-in-law just came, and she moved into the chicken coop. Yeah. No, my mother did a beautiful job with the chicken coop,

and he lives on 26 acres. I mean, that's, you know, it really was a hell of a chicken coop. That changes things kind of a lot. Oh, thank you, Perry. How so? One of Denise's main issues with my mother kind of a lot. Oh, thank you, Perry. How so? One of Denise's main issues with my mother was her lack of egg production.

If you're going to occupy the chicken coop, you've got to produce. That was her line. Right. So where did the chickens go? There were no chickens. It just went in the house, Dan. The chickens all have bedrooms in the house now? There were no chickens. They just went in the house, Dan. The chickens all have bedrooms in the house now. There were no chickens.

That's why I could, you know, renovate a little part of the chicken coop. And I loved it out there. It was wonderful. And so I didn't need to be in the house all that much. Yeah. My mother left a million dollar loft on the Lower East Side to move into a chicken coop in the Berkshires. That COVID really, that'll get to you.

Perrielle, I guess, you know, I was really wanting to stay there through the rest of the summer and things came to a head when orion started my son started talking about how maybe i could build a tiny house or a yurt uh in a meadow that was about a half a mile from their house you're just like a mongolian dwelling or something of course it is you think she's gonna live in an american dwelling it's either a chicken coop or a yurt you You know that. Were you supposed to build that yourself? What? Were you supposed to build that yourself?

Oh, I would have ordered one. Actually, I was interested in building a tiny house. I did want to build something myself. And I thought maybe 27 and a half acres was enough room. I mean, that's insane. I'm sorry. Like that, 27 acres, like you can't put your mother-in-law in a little house?

Yeah, that's what I had a problem with. I don't know if I'm right. You know, there's some serious family dynamics here that I'm, you know, that I'm not qualified to deal with. There isn't enough backstory. You gotta, keep the audience on point because without the context, I don't want to lose anybody or everybody rather. It's good to be personal, but if we get into too many degrees of separation, then the listener is totally lost. I would like to hear about Addie's... A yurt? No, not the yurt. Well, yurt is funny. It is funny. You're damn right it's funny.

I think it's the funniest house that anybody can live in, a yurt. Wigwams, I guess, would be... Wigwam is also funny. Do you live in a wigwam? I thought a wigwam was more of a hall in which the Indians would go and have a meeting.

I'm just, wigwam, semi-permanent domed dwelling used by certain Native American tribes. Okay, good enough. It's not a teepee, but it's... I think you may have found the one house funnier than a yurt. I think you might be right.

Addy, I just wanted your thoughts on the madness that's over... I don't want to say madness, but madness of a sort, I guess, but of the mass protests and the Black Lives Matter movement and all that. If you have any thoughts. Wow. I have not been in any protests. My heart's in it. I hope it goes on for a long, long time, actually.

It's wonderful to see so many young people involved. You know, when I was reading up there in my chicken coop, I ordered that book, White Fragility. And the subtitle is, I think, why it's so hard for white people to talk about race. And it really put... What? It had nothing to do with eggs, white fragility. Right, white fragility. But it did put me in touch with how defensive i can get

i mean uh you know denise is costa rican and uh one afternoon she really confessed how she saw me as so white and privileged and really talked a lot about it. And I felt myself a bit defensive because I don't like to think of myself as racist, but I was starting to get more in touch with that. I would argue that life in a chicken coop really reduces one sense of, of what, what was the word? Oh, entitlement. Oh, entitlement. You know, I, I don't buy into this notion that that if you're white in this society, you're racist automatically.

Oh. You know, I mean, that is a notion that I've heard people have expressed. Right. You absorb it and you can't help it. I mean, to me, if there's anybody that's not racist, it's got to be Addie Baufman. Hey, you know what, Dan? You know what I learned?

You know what this book pointed out to me? We have a very bad association with the word racist. What this, no, no, seriously. We need to reframe the definition. We really do. Because it said that during the 60s, racism got a really bad name. It meant that you were just this mean, murderer, demonic, you know, person. And it really doesn't mean that. overtly overtly overtly overtly overtly overtly overtly overtly overtly overtly overtly overtly presumption, then as tribal animals, we're all a bit racist. I mean, clearly there's an accent on

being racist within your own dominant kind of part of the hierarchy is what it's referring to. We participate in a system that oppresses other people. So Dan, you know, you can say that just by being white, maybe you're not actively being racist, but you are passively or not passively participating in, in, in that system and benefiting from it. I don't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't argue the nuanced aspects of the way Perrielle said that. What I would argue is that I'm afraid of the McCarthyistic bullshit on the left, which says, regardless of if I have an opinion as it relates to the black community, my opinion must. It is is sort of isolated within the definition of of i'm sorry i'm not saying this well my opinion isn't allowed it is immediately uh deconstructed and reappropriated to support the idea that i'm a part of white that it's a function of privilege or it's a function of guilt, as opposed to it being a function of

what could potentially be an intelligent observation. That was a lot of words to get there. But that's the issue I have with it. It's not a nuanced exploration of any of it. It is a clear right and wrong, which is the opposite of a dynamic idea flow. If I'm not allowed to have an observation about the black community, having lived in the black community, because I have white skin, then we can't really have a conversation. I don't think that's true, though. I don't think that that's true though. I don't, I don't, I don't think that that's true. I don't think it's that you can't have an opinion, but I do think that context is,

is important in all things in life. We're saying the same thing then. I just felt like on the left, if you don't immediately go, if you're not holding a sign saying racial justice and you go, well, you know, what if, and maybe not all cops are bad like i'm not hearing nuance from that's not but when you're talking about you know if the conversation is about one thing and then you not you personally but one starts deflecting about but this thing too and, and this thing too, it's like, you know, we're not talking about that. It's like, you know, if we're talking about your mom having HIV, and it's like, well, you know, cancer is dangerous also. And it's like, but nobody's fucking talking about that.

Right, right. Yeah, but at some point they should, because if the light is only focused on HIV and HIV is connected to a potential, like a prom, a promiscuous lifestyle. We need to talk about that lifestyle. That lifestyle is not just a function of HIV. Wait a minute. Let me, let me say something here. Cause I feel like there's a connection between COVID and racism. There is. And, and, and that is.

It's a racist virus. I'm starting to feel what I got out of reading White Fragility is my lack of awareness of how white I really think. How white my thoughts are. And I think that it's really important that we, we look at that without being defensive. I think COVID I've noticed even in my dreams. Now I'm going to sound a little crazy for a minute because there's going to

be a lot of disconnect with what I'm saying. So I'm going to depend on you three to help pull it together. And that is, I feel like I wake up every day and COVID is a really big deal. Where I go shopping, who I talk to, who I hang out with. It causes discussions with my friend who I'm living with, who wants to be dating and what that's going to be like. And am I going to feel safe? It's, it's even in my dreams at night, I have dreams that I'm with a group of people and I'm suddenly aware we're not wearing masks and I get really anxious so here's where I wanted to try to make and Perry L maybe you can help me where I want to try to make a connection with racism I think that if tomorrow someone told us there was no COVID, I don't know that we would believe it.

And I think that with racism, I don't know. I don't know how to express this. It's a good premise. It's a good idea. There's a horrible kind of dark feeling about COVID now. And we're struggling to figure out how to live our lives. We have to think every time we go out of the house. And I think if I had black skin, I think that I would have lived my whole life thinking about what it's like to go out of my fucking house.

Who I could date. Yes. Who I could talk to. What store I could go into. Every aspect of my life. And yet, and yet. No, Dove, I'm not going to let you talk. Every aspect of my life would be coming out of this awareness of having black skin in this culture.

And I think, I think that if you talk to, I mean, I don't want to say every person, but I have certainly understood from my life and the books I've read and the people I've spoken to and the research I've done and just being in the world and growing up where I grew up, um, is that that really is the experience of a lot of black people, that you have to think about things moment to moment that involve your safety that we take for granted. Yeah. I don't take it for granted. I grew up in an environment where I was outside the box. I did not have black skin and I don't claim to understand what that's like from the inside, but I do know what it's like to be an outsider and have to walk into situations where you

feel unsafe. I do know the history of most incoming immigrants in this country. I know that Pakistanis can have dark skin, but have a very different culture and don't seem to rankle white people as heavily. I think there's a lot of nuance here that isn't being mentioned. And when we get swept up in the drama of, oh, my God, what's it like having black skin? Yes, that's a very reasonable explanation. There's also another experience, which is when Jews weren't allowed in Ivy League schools, they just continued to really outperform other people.

They have a very different history. I'm not equivocating them. I am saying they are not only victims. And I want to hear that voice as well as we are victims. And I'm not hearing it. But there's an element of victimhood here, which doesn't feel super, doesn't feel nuanced to me. And perhaps we're not ready for the nuance yet. And right now we do need to just talk about being a victim of something. But at some point we are going to have to engage in why do, why do, do you think it's just dark skin?

I can probably prove to you that that's not the case. We can talk about other communities with dark skin that don't seem to get, you know, that don't have as... Dov, I don't think it's just dark skin. I think it's Black Americans. Yes. I agree. So that it isn't just race.

It is culture. And so that's the point I'm making. It isn't just dark skin. is culture. And so that's the point I'm making. It isn't just dark skin. You've made my point for me. And so when I hear it's race, it's race, it's race. No, it's not. It is cultural. When I'm in a neighborhood and they play louder music than

they do in other neighborhoods and I go, Hey, it's a black neighborhood, it seems to be louder. Does that make me a racist? Or am I an intelligent person having an observation about what's called pattern recognition, which is how we survived in the forest for 10,000 years? It is not just race.

It is culture. And we have to acknowledge that as well. Dan? But once again, not afraid to go where others don't go. Yeah, I think there's truth

to that, but I also think that I was watching... I was going to talk about how every white family, every liberal white family, would move out of the neighborhood when a black family moved in. It's like, there's so much hypocrisy and all this white shit like if white people really don't have any sort of cultural issue with what it's like living in a black neighborhood and

i've lived in one go fucking live there i think that's the point and i think what you're saying is true i think that like that's exactly the point is that white people do have issues living in black neighborhoods. That's right. And I don't think that you can talk about, I don't think that you can talk about, you know, the things that you're saying without taking into consideration the deep, deep, deep rooted racist insidious roots of this country with slavery and all of those no problem with that i have no problem with all of that as long as i'm also allowed to say i've lived in a black neighborhood i didn't like it do you want to hear why i didn't like it it wasn't because of skin

color it was fucking loud and it was not the kind of place i would want to live again yeah you know who else doesn't and i'm not live again. Yeah you know who else doesn't want to live there? And I'm not racist for saying that. You know who else doesn't want to live there? Who? Everybody else who's living there. Because those neighborhoods, because disenfranchised people, disenfranchised people have shitty access to all of the things that you want yeah so then that has to be a part of the conversation with white people and white people have to go well i see you doing

this and black people go well why the fuck do you think we're doing this but as long as we feel guilty for having an observation about going to a movie theater, a black theater. Every comedian, listen, when Chris Rock talks about, you know, looking behind him at the ATM and he goes, I'm not looking for white people. And when people do jokes about going to the theater in a black neighborhood, black people are talking to the screen. Those are very real cultural experiences

that we've all had. And I don't want to be called racist because I have a pair of balls and i make an observation about an environment i'm in if the fucking movie theater is loud i don't care about the reasons you're all being loud i'll think about race and my white experience after i'm not going to that theater that's a privilege that you have other people can't say i'll think about my race after i agree with you and that needs to be a part of this conversation so i am not for a moment saying that white people don't have a great deal of exploration at hand i am saying that i don't want to paint everybody

immediately and if listen we change the meaning of the word racist, like my mother was talking about, to represent a much more nuanced experience of different tribal history, of course. But that isn't the way we're using it in contemporary media. We're using it to cancel culture. That is McCarthyism. I can have an observation about the world that I'm living in without being a racist in the cancerous sense of the word. And so that's the part that I want to stick up for. And I'm not hearing it from people. I'm only hearing the NPR narrative. But maybe it's not their job right now.

Yeah, I mean, I think the important thing now, and frankly, the thing that white people haven't been doing for decades if not centuries is really like shutting the fuck up and trying to understand what it is like to have an experience of being black in america i i one thing i'll say about that is that we should shut up and listen. But after we've listened, we should be allowed to speak. Yes. Nobody's prohibiting any... No, Perry, I disagree.

I think everything I've heard on NPR is there is a prohibition. I do feel prohibited to have an observation about what it was like living in a Black neighborhood and why I did not like it. I feel very prohibited. And I feel very judged.. But Addie, you had something to say. Yeah. Actually, when I was reading White Fragility, Perrielle, it was like what the author said that was news to me was, no, it's not the time for us to listen anymore.

We've had our chances. For decades, black Americans have tried to tell us what it's like. Yes. And she actually said, no, it's not up to them anymore. It's not their responsibility. We have to start looking into ourselves and quit looking to them. We're all saying the same thing. Maybe. And you know what? My thing is my phone's going to cut out the charge,

so I'll have to go to my iPad, but I'm up in the attic, so it'll be better. We've done like- We don't have much more time, right? No, we're about at the end anyway. Oh, okay, okay. I'm sorry. I won't worry about it then. Go ahead. Um, well, one thing I do want to say is that I was watching some videos. Our friend John Laster, who is a comic,

has this hashtag called, um... Why don't you talk about your opinion? The John Laster Challenge. All right. Well, my opinion is this. My opinion is as follows. Why don't you talk about your opinion? The John Laster challenge. All right. Well, my opinion is this. My opinion is as follows. My opinion is that there may be reasons,

there may be statistical reasons that cops interact with the black community more than with the white community. And there may be reasons why there's more arrests and the black crime rate may be higher. It is higher statistically. But what I want to just get at right now is, though the vast majority of black people are not criminals, obviously, and they're still feeling the weight of this stereotype.

Even if the stereotype has some statistical backing. So a guy like John Laster, who's not a criminal gets thrown up against the hood of a car and, and, and, and, and manhandled by the police. And Mark Theobald, who's another friend of ours or fellow comedian, actually haven't seen him in years, but you know, they all have stories, right? So they all have the John Laster challenge. It's called hashtag John Laster challenge.

And it's all these black guys talking about their stories. Some of them are pretty hair-raising cops telling them, just rifling through their car, can't find anything, and said, just get out of town and don't ever come back again. So there are innocent victims, and we need to figure out a way that John Lasseter doesn't get harassed and we've got to wait until he's not accused of a crime

that he doesn't commit. Everybody in the world said what you said. What's the point you're making? Who doesn't agree with that? We want Oprah arrested? Well, of course. The point I'm making is, first of all, that I was not aware. I was not aware and I can't be the only one who was not aware. Call me naive.

I've heard every black comic at the cellar talk about how they can't get a taxi. How were you not aware of that? I'm not aware of the taxi. Yeah, the taxi I know, but most taxi drivers aren't white. So it's not a white black thing. Again, now you have something even deeper to look into. Why would you know, but okay.

But the point is, yeah, I knew they can't get a cab. I didn't know how many black people that we know and how many black people in general. But this isn't just about the cops. But I'm focusing on the cops because that's what the controversy is. So, you know, we have to figure out a way that policing can be done effectively. We all agree on that. Without people that we know and love and getting harassed and sometimes beaten by the cops

yeah of course but again i say i say it because i really didn't know that they were having these experiences oh i just didn't know that i know i know about not being able to get a cab i knew about that but the idea that you know he talks about the cops all the time i've heard i've heard many many times so yes we accept that of course, now that you know that, we have to figure out a way to have a more even-handed experience. But it goes so much deeper than that, though. It's not just the cops.

It's starting out when you're a small child and at a certain point, every single black parent has to have a talk with their child about how to behave in the world it's not just the cops it's going into a store it's walking down the street or brianna taylor it's sleeping in your bed it's like uh it's it's a kind of covid it's a disease well you have it in this culture it is an interesting one and and no doubt, many black people feel exactly as you stated

that it's constantly with them. They have to constantly, every move they make, they have to, they have to bring, they have to bring their mask with them. They have to bring their,

their, their, you know, what do you wash your hands with? They're constantly thinking about it. Ironically,

Jor-El sounds like a black, black person's name. Jor-El does sound like a black guy's name. I bringll does sound like a black guy's name. I bring a little levity into it. I hope somebody will be. But, you know, we all agree, I think, Addy,

with what you're saying. Dove is trying to answer the question, why has it come to this? Why do other browns... I don't think I'm trying to answer it as much as I am saying, let's make sure the conversation is dynamic and that white people aren't shamed for having experiences, even if their experiences are a function of their own innate racism.

You follow? Because I'll tell you, I think what I mean, it's coming out and I think COVID helped it to come out. I mean, Trump wanted to deny the danger of of this virus right and i think we as white americans would like to deny that it's everybody else but yeah okay anyway uh i missed that but a lot of people deny a lot of people were denied i'm just saying it wasn't just Trump. He's making an analogy between denying COVID and denying

racism. Innate racism, yeah. Well, look, no doubt we all have our beliefs and most of us... What does Noam say? Do you remember? Does Noam have a central position on this? Noam's position is roughly my position.

He looks at the statistics and the studies seem to indicate that black people are not more likely to get killed by the cops per police interaction. They have interactions with the police and we can discuss the reasons for that. But the studies do indicate a higher level of harassment and physical manhandling by the police. Those are what the statistics seem to show in the studies that we have available to us. Although if anybody has other studies, they certainly, we'd love to see them. And you're getting statistics from a system that, in my opinion, is inherently and systemically designed against black people. So of course you're going to get those right right right right possible perry all that those numbers are accurate even if those numbers are accurate they're still skewed

and also but even and even if they are accurate that's you you guys throw out these numbers as though like the conversation ends because these doesn't end because it doesn't end because i said that there's yeah it doesn't need to be a part of the conversation and it's not just shootings it's being pulled over it's being harassed being beaten it's having your car ransacked you know what you know what i notice in this look all four of us are white. To varying degrees. And wait a minute. Wait a minute. And the two who are most outspoken about this with emotion

are Perrielle and myself. Women. And I think you white men are threatened. Is it their penis size? I don't... Maybe.

But I think white men are even more, I mean, in some ways, more responsible for the institutionalized racism. White men in general are responsible because it's men that

govern society. Women were making biscuits. Women were making biscuits. Racism. Men in general are responsible because it's men that govern society. So women were making biscuits. Women making biscuits. Whatever, yes. So whatever's going down, yes, it's men. The good and the bad. Listen, I have no problem with any of that.

I just want the forum to be dynamic. Oh, and also, yeah, I feel like the cancel culture component, we can't just sweep that under the rug. That's very real. And everybody I've heard in academia, Bill Maher rails against it. Every interesting podcaster is railing against it. The cancel culture component is very dangerous. You should be able to have opinions without being canceled.

That way it allows us to talk about them. If something I'm saying is coming from a racist perspective and I'm not seeing it, if I'm not allowed to tell you about it, then you never point the finger at me and go, hey, Dove, can you see it this way? Talk about it this way. I want to be able to communicate with black people about my experience of black America as well so that I'm better informed. And what we're going to do is we're going to create a culture of white people that are afraid to have any opinions about black people. And we we're going to do is we're going to create a culture of white people that are afraid to have any opinions about black people. And we're all going to suffer for that. Watch what happens.

Well, maybe our next guest could be somebody with whom Dove can have this conversation. Let's have it. Absolutely. I also, Addie, I just want to say that I agree with what you said before also. I mean, the onus is on us to speak out and like to change it, right? It's not this like passive thing where we just listen.

I mean, that is... Right. I mean, that should have been over... I mean, that's something that should happen every single day, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Addie is running out of power. We have done an hour, 10 minutes roughly. So I like to leave the people wanting more. I will say that I think there is a love connection that has been made between Perrielle and Addie. And I hope that they continue to stay in touch with each other because I think they're very fond of each other. That's my sense of me, but I've been wrong before. Thank you, Addie, for joining us. Wonderful to see you again.

And hopefully I'll see you maybe in actual reality. Thanks, Dan. Thanks. And nice to meet you, Perrielle and Dove. I love you. There's plenty of love to go around. God bless everybody. Not exactly the same as saying I love you to your mother I love you mom because we don't say it enough to those we care about I love you too Dan oh for God's sake

come on you know I can't express myself like that white guilt um you're alright I'll say that you're okay alright

ask Dove Davidoff on Twitter and Instagram and Perry L of course is at I don't know what she's. You can call us at live from the table. At live from the table.

Oh, yeah. And Perrielle, make sure you send me a clip. I'll do the Instagram. I will. And comments, questions, suggestions at podcast at comedyseller.com. We'll see you next time. Have a great week, everybody. Stay safe.

Bye. Bye, everybody. Stay safe. Bye. Everybody. Bye, Perrielle. Bye, Addie.