The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Bonus Episode #8 with Dov Davidoff

Episode Date: August 5, 2020

Bonus Episode #8 with Dov Davidoff

and that was uh blinded by the light manford man's earth man coming this is dan natterman we are live from the table coming at you on the sirius xm 99 raw dog and yes indeed and the ride cast podcast network i guess we're actually not on Raw Dog for this episode, but I said it anyway. Hello, everybody. Doug Davidoff is joining us, and Periel Ashenbrand as well, each from their own homes as per pandemic regulations. How are you? I suppose it's worth noting we're also not at the table in that case. That's maybe worth noting.

Periel has a necklace that says Periel. She is not wearing her Periel earrings today, but lest anybody have trouble identifying her, she has a necklace that says Periel. She's like Laverne, the modern day Laverne DeFazio. If you recall, Laverne from Laverne, the modern day Laverne DeFazio. If you recall, Laverne and Shirley always had a big L on her shirt. And Perrielle is never without a name,

her name somewhere on her person. Hello, Perrielle. It's true. Dove, your glasses are black. I have a reading glass. For the first time in my life, I needed reading glasses. I reached the age of 46 without needing them. Anyway, now I don't know what to – you see? I look like a – I don't know. I mean, I look like one of those people with busted glasses in prison, you know, that just can't get out into the world to source a new pair. I mean, it looks unreasonable.

You know, the whole operation makes me feel like a lopsided human being. Nothing is sadder than watching Dove grow old. I was old to begin with. An old man had the complaining and the kvetched and never got laid anyway, but Dove

was a force of nature. How long have you two known each other? Since the 90s, since it was before 9-11. Because I remember on 9-11, Dove got a piece of dust in his eye. Yeah, it was personal. And he said, now it's personal. Now it's personal, baby. Yeah, no, it's been a long time.

So more than 20 years. Yeah. But it's, you know, I mean, it's just, it goes so fast. It's such a blur. You know, 20 years used to be significant to me. I used to think 20 years was a long time. Now to me, 20 years is not so much, you know. It just comes and goes.

It's just every time I see a movie that came out 20 years ago, I mean, it seems like yesterday, you know, it just comes and goes. It's just every time I see a movie that came out 20 years ago, I mean, it seems like yesterday, you know, like Boogie Nights was like 25 years ago. Yeah. And wasn't it an immediate friendship or did one of you have to- I think more or less, more or less, more or less. It was at the New York Comedy Club. I still remember, Perrielle,

when... I don't want to talk about Dave. Yeah, no. I don't want to insult anybody. No, I know. I was thinking through whether or not I leave out the name would it still work, but you're right. You're right. Way to kill

a story, guys. We'll get to it next time. But we have plenty going on in the world of comedy this week. Because once again, one of our colleagues has been accused

of inappropriate behavior. Brian Callen, of course, I refer to. He's been accused of... There's four accusations, three of which I don't think are really even worth mentioning. One was a consensual affair that he had while married, accused of.

One was he said to a woman... He kissed a woman against a wall in a dressing room. And the third one was he offered a woman he kissed a woman against a wall in a dressing room um and the third one was he offered a woman money uh in exchange for stage time and i'm sorry oh he offered a woman money in exchange for and stage time in exchange for oral sex these were the accusations that were made, none of which I think are criminal, even if not anything to brag about or not anything, you know, to be proud of. What was the wall one? Well, again, these are all accusations. A woman accused him of, I think, she was working at a store and she accused him of pushing him up against the wall and trying to kiss her. Yeah. I don't know where that lies on the spectrum of, you know,

legality and, or, I mean, what do you think of that Perry? I mean, if you, if you thought you were getting any kind of signal from a woman, assuming that's, that's what happened, you know, do you see that as a, as a major transgression or not? Being pushed up against a wall against my will. Well, I mean, pushed. Transgression. Pardon? Being pushed up against a wall against my will,

I would consider. Well, no, but that's the point. Is it against the will or was it a potential misunderstanding or misinterpretation of signals? Anyway, the real, the real, the real, the real, the most serious of the charges

was a charge of rape that one woman had said that he had outright raped her, you know, and anyway, that's the most serious charge by far

of the four. Brian has categorically, unequivocally, and vigorously to give him his due and to hear both sides denied all four accusations. So, Dov, you're a good friend of Brian's. I know you wanted to say some things about this.

Well, I'm trying to source through without addressing, you know, I mean, I don't know. I feel like the time we're in, I think this at any time would have been really touchy. And trying to thread the needle of communicating about the person that I know without disparaging any of these women and their experience. So to get into, you know, I don't know. It's a guy whose heart, so to speak. You know how you've met people

and there is something just kind of eternally decent or not. There are people with whom you've experienced, if not outright maliciousness, then perhaps it wouldn't surprise you had you found out that they behaved in ways that were malicious. My experience of Brian is there is kind of an eternal goodness and a generosity,

and it is wildly inconsistent with the accusations. But, you know, you're talking about somebody that I know for as long as I've known Dan, I think. And, um, roughly. And, um, I know his family, you know, and I just know the guy's heart. You know, Brian and I were on the road years ago and somewhere in Cali and, um, Gerard Carmichael was opening for us. If you guys

out in the comedy world, Gerard had, I think he had a show. Dan, did he have a show? Yeah, I think so. I think he might still have one. You know, nowadays there's so many channels.

Yeah, I don't follow. Yeah. But he had like an NBC, he had an HBO special. You know, I think maybe Chris Rock produced it or somebody. I don't know. But he didn't have money. like an NBC. He had an HBO special. You know, I think maybe even Chris Rock produced it or

somebody. I don't know. But he didn't have money. He didn't have any money. And he had just moved out from North Carolina or somewhere. And Brian and I found out he didn't have a car. And after our weekend was over, we liked Gerard so much that Brian said, you know, we should buy him a car. And, you know, we put together, I don't know, 1500 bucks a piece, something like that, maybe 2000 a piece. And Brian had his guy or somebody, we bought him a car. And that doesn't mean that somebody didn't feel as though there were transgressions that took place. But it does mean to me that I know that person and, you know, I know that person and nobody that really that reads an article. and then how can we how do you communicate that

in the context of these charges and who among us if the scope were 21 years and there were a you know metaphorically a camera on us all 21 of those years.

And I wanted to pull out a snippet. I'm not talking about the rape part, but all of the other sort of context. And, you know, I don't know. It's some scrutiny to survive. I mean, without disparaging anybody's account of their experience. Well, sorry, I don't know. It's some scrutiny to survive. I mean, without disparaging anybody's account of their experience. Well, sorry, I don't want to interrupt. No, no, go ahead. No, no, no. I don't know what I'm saying. Please just jump in. What you're saying is that it's the Brian you know is not the Brian that was described in these accusations.

But also I found there's something about Brian that's above and beyond, you know, the average person I make contact with, which is that there is an, an, an extreme generosity and sort of almost, you know, a, a, a goodwill that sets itself apart from other people's goodwill in my

experience. And, and yeah. Okay. So I'm going to say this, first of all, I'm going to start by saying, I don't know, Brian, I've never met him. So I'm going to say this. First of all, I'm going to start by saying I don't know Brian. I've never met him.

I'm speaking, let's say, objectively. Yeah. So I think it's probably really difficult to – I mean, these things are not mutually exclusive you can be an extraordinarily generous person and a wonderful father or you know I don't know what

and also have committed rape I mean John Wayne Gacy had 17 bodies under the floor space in his building and he you know used to play a clown in church and everybody And he used to play a clown in church and everybody thought he was wonderful. I don't know.

I imagine that being close friends with somebody and hearing these kinds of things is very, I mean, shocking, difficult to sort of, I don't know, figure out. I would also say that as a woman, I find it really hard to believe, and I don't know any of these charges that like suddenly like things start piling up if you've never done anything like that but my question is is that the case i agree i don't know well i'm just saying i what i meant

to say was i agree with your assessment that where there's smoke there's often fire i would just um question the degree of smoke this all began coming out of the social media woodwork when Chris D'Elia's accusers all came down. And then there was all of this scrutiny, you know, placed on Brian because they were linked. And that scrutiny over the course of 21 years turned up four people three of whom dan described as you know potentially sort of wacky um a contextual misread and you know you know one of them was actually in a relationship with him dan do you i don't even remember the transgressions the other three i do remember somebody's accusing him of, of, of rape, which is an entirely different level. Um, but that's,

that was the one sort of nail in the coffin, so to speak among the four. I didn't experience the other four as, um, um, you know, I don't know their level of credibility. But I know that if somebody's been with a lot of people over the course of 21 years, it'd be hard to imagine that there isn't somebody out there that felt as though they had been misread. Rape notwithstanding. I'm not talking about that. What happened to Dan? You can't. He didn't want to have anything

to do with this conversation. You can't say rape notwithstanding. No, I agree. I agree. And that's why I sort of hesitate to even attempt to discuss all of the nuance and the difference between the person. I mean, imagine if you found out

that Dan had these charges, but you had known him. I mean. No,. I mean, imagine if you found out that Dan had these charges, but you had known him. I mean... No, like I said, I'm sure it's shocking and it's impossible to reconcile somebody who you love. I mean, there are people

who live with serial killers for 20 years who have families. And again, I don't know any of these people. I'm speaking from, there's Dan. So Dove said, imagine if I had found out that Dan had done something horrible and I said- It was all that, by the way?

Because I mean, I don't know what happened. Well, I'm filling you in. And I said, well, there are people who live with serial killers and have families with them and children with them. I mean, and so I would be shocked if I found out that Dan had, you know, raped somebody. I would be less shocked if I found out he was a serial killer. That's interesting. Why would that be? You don't feel I'm physically strong enough to rape? I don't know.

Listen, people, people do horrible things. Well, I mean, I had a, Perry? I don't know what else to say. I had a very, very close friend in high school, a guy, and I hadn't seen him in a long time, and I was less friendly with his girlfriend, but he was really like one of my best guy friends in high school, and I was a real tomboy, too. And years later, his girlfriend told me that he had hit her. I mean, that really, like, you know, physically abused her. I don't hit her. I mean, that really like, you know, physically abused her. I don't know what, I didn't get the details. And I saw him years later.

And he said to me, you know, he was furious with me because I believed her really. I mean, I did believe her. And he goes, you know, I can't believe, and as I understood it, like, actually it was true. He had hit her and he had been violent with her. And he said, I can't believe you think that I could do something like that. And I was like, well, you know, I mean, people do terrible things all the time. So. Well, that's, that's true, but is there not, I mean, the nature of, you know, due process has been brought up in, in the context of the presumption of somebody telling the

truth I mean I granted it I mean your your point is well taken which is of course you can be a nice guy and still kill people but what if you didn't kill the people well i'm having the conversation it's a very very tricky you know the one thing i was sorry to interrupt no no no go ahead i said i just wanted to finish my second any woman that or any person that's a victim has the right to tell their story so the accusers they know if they're telling the truth and if they are telling the truth they have every right to to to to make these accusations now as far as what is our responsibility you know i mean i think it's very tricky dan remember when aziz ansari, I remember there's something in the paper about some woman feeling aggressed and or put off in a really significant way when he asked for a blow.

Do you remember the story, Dan? Of course. He was, at worst, there was miscommunication And he wasn't particularly Right My point is The context What's that

I thought he gave him a blowjob and then like Regretted it afterwards Or something There was nothing Forced there was nothing I mean he could tell you how many stories. Well, but my point is like, you know, the one instance where the girl said, Brian, you know, asked for a blowjob in exchange for state. Like, I don't know what context in which that was communicated or how drunk the girl was.

And I'm not calling her a liar. I'm just saying it is so impossible over the course of 20 years for us to look back and go, yeah, that definitely happened just like she said it did. I mean, it would be absurd to isolate that context unless there were a number of other.

When you hear Weinstein and there's that much smoke and that much fire and so many credible sources coming forward um you know it's it's tough you know you said you don't know she was you don't know how drunk he might have been either you don't know if no no that's exactly right we don't know and we don't know if he was kidding and we don't know if she had said well is there any way that i could help to maybe do something for you and you yeah but you you know what no because we live in a world in which and not always in situations that, you know, don't feel necessarily

safe in ways in which I think guys oftentimes don't really understand. So, you know, I don't know. We need to know for that particular accusation. I believe, I agree with Doug. We need to really know the precise context in order to, there isn't a comedian that I have ever sort of experienced there, you know, sort of at the table loosely with their sense of humor that over the course of 20 years, you could not pull an out of context statement from and make them look like a fucking animal. There isn't a single one that you could not accomplish that with. So that's why I'm just

saying we have to consider the number of sources and how much smoke relative to the amount of fire. You know, if there are three people, I'm not talking about somebody that's saying that rape took place. There are three people that said something was out of sorts over the course of 20 years and there wasn't an actual physical assault and there was an offer of a blow job and not one other woman in the country has come forward. I'm just saying, I'm not saying she's necessarily lying, but the likelihood

that something may have been taken out of context over the course of two decades and then plugged into social media is incredibly likely. And also, Brian has that kind of sense of humor that depending on his relationship with this woman,

if they were really good friends, he might have said, hey, why don't you help me out? You know, in a joking way, it's certainly all part of it. Hey, so put that aside then. So then you want to just talk about the rape? Well, I think, as I said at the beginning, I think that's the one that's really relevant here. I don't think the others, you know,

are of great importance, you know, comparatively anyway. And I think that's the one that's the most important one. But if that is the case and we're down, listen, one accusation of rape is one too many, but is that to what, to what degree do we indict? How quickly do we do so? And then how ruinous are the consequences? I mean, what, you know, look, there's a ton of gray area here, obviously. But when social media becomes judge, jury, and executioner, isn't the whole nature of what the legal system has evolved the nature of justice as it's defined by legal minds over the course of several hundred years. However,

that system evolved by the two not at inherent odds with one another. Yeah. You know, yeah. At the same time, we're all entitled to make our own judgments about how we want to interact with people. We all hear rumors about people. We all, you know, over the course of our lives and we all can choose to continue being friends with the person or reject the person. Right. But is it is it OK that people sort of, you know, for somebody's what they built over the course of 25 years um at what point do we rip that out from

under them and prevent them from providing for their family um what how far does it go and what line becomes the the place of no return. I know in the legal system- I think it's a very, very difficult question. Obviously, when it comes to sending someone to jail, we need guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, but we're not talking about that. We're talking about-

I would rather go to jail for six months, come out and still be able to resume my life in theory, if that were possible, than have everything I built for 20 years ripped out for money. If you're not a public figure, if that were possible, then have everything I built for 20 years ripped out for money. If you're not a public figure, if you own an apartment building and you're accused of something, you still own the apartment building when you come out. If you're in the public eye and you're a performer, the very thing you're selling, the very relationships necessary in

order to sort of, you know, make a living or create opportunity can be removed from you without ever having been convicted of anything. Well, there's a very simple way to avoid that. I disagree. I mean, I think there have been lots of unfounded accusations that no one can avoid. You're right if you're talking about whether or not you're genuinely guilty. Yeah, I mean, yes, but also, you know, one should, one who is in the public eye should proceed with caution in general, you know, I hope it goes without saying that we shouldn't be raping people, right? It goes without saying.

It goes without saying. Yeah, I mean, it's... Do you think... It's not true if it's terrible, you know, and if it's true, it's also terrible. I agree. I i mean is there dead is there a person that you could think of a celebrity somebody in the public eye on television somebody on stage with a guitar if you're in and out of nightclubs for 20 years do you really think there's someone over the course of 20 years that didn't go in for a kiss. And wires got crossed. And then,

and there was alcohol involved. And maybe there was a woman on the other side of that, or a man that felt there was a transgression that took place. Now, I understand. I'm not, you know, I'm not making an excuse. That becomes not even about Brian. That is just about the social media sphere and looking at someone over the course, the scope of two decades in a nightclub environment. Would your favorite guitarist, songwriter, talk show host, actor be able to stand up under that scrutiny? I highly doubt it. Well, you know, other than Ryan Hamilton, it would be a small list, you know, and I think most of us have, during the course of this Me Too movement, have thought back over the course of the past couple of days, well, is there anything that imagine a guy you know that is living on and off the stage so to speak and if you are hooking up with people in nightclubs granted there's more liability

associated with that and you should be that much more careful but that isn't the reality in environments where people are drinking and fucking and you know what kind of a culture are we living in i mean nobody would accuse me of that. I mean, there, you know trying to forcibly right sexually assault them and I've been around the block a few times we're not talking about sexual assault which is another category we're talking about as Dove said moving in for a kiss that might have been unwanted well not not just not just a physical confrontation, but really, you know, the offer that I think the blowjob comment or the way the girl that was with Aziz felt sort of used or she felt there was some form of psychological transgression that took place. Okay, but that's something other than rape. I was more thinking about a lot of the gray area that takes place in between men and women and how many people would be able to stand up.

If a woman, I guess women tend to be less promiscuous in general. Obviously, there are many exceptions. And men would probably, you know, because of the lack of the power differential between men and women obviously favors the man. So I've had my ass grabbed by audience members, by female audience members. Now, had we been drinking and I turned around and said to a paper, if there weren't the power differential, if there were rather, I could ease, I've been transgressed. Absolutely. 100% if I were a woman, I could say that I had been touched inappropriately. No doubt about it.

Intoxicated women sort of pressing off, doing something awkward. Yeah. 100%. And so I don't come. If I would feel humiliated to complain about that. So why? Why? Why would you feel humiliated? Because it doesn't feel like it hurts. It doesn't hurt me.

It doesn't impact me. There's no reason to make a big deal out of out of something where I where there was the transgression. And then there's whether or not it really sort of lived in me which is what the crime is right it's like if there's a crime that takes place it's because i was impacted in a way that prevented me from feeling safe that prevented me from looking at men or women in this case the same way i didn't feel that level but if we want to remove context and talk about transgression, absolutely. I've been on the other side of that. Dan, have you ever had

your ass grabbed? I don't know what that is. I think so. I think so, in a playful, loving way. Yeah, women, you know, are not judged by the same standard, because it doesn't hurt us. You know, and that has to be taken into account. It's for the same reason whenever it doesn't hurt us it's you know um and that has to be taken

into account it's for the same reason whenever we read about these high school teachers molest the female teachers molesting a student or having sex with a student we're not quite as outraged as a society as we are when it's a man doing it to a woman because we have a sense that that the man is not as traumatized by it as or the the that a boy would not be as traumatized i don't know if that's the case or not when you're talking about a young boy but that's the i mean it's absolutely not the case when you're talking about a young boy well i'm not sure that it is or it isn't i i a high school you know teenager and an attractive teacher and sometimes they are quite attractive these teachers that are accused of it i don't know how traumatized the kid is you know maybe he is i'm not going to rule it out

but their brains aren't even developed enough i mean for a 15 year old boy to you know be having sex with a 30 year old teacher i mean whether or not he thinks it's fucking him up in the moment is sort of irrelevant no i think it's relevant i mean no like you're right if there were any sort of indication that lasting damage is actually done but i haven't heard many of these men that fuck teacher 15 come out and say now i can't move on dove was 12 years old yeah great yes right no i He was raped. Yes, raped. No, I wasn't. Well, you were underage. That's rape. Yeah, yeah, yeah, technically.

You know, and he had sex with an adult prostitute. How old was she? She was in her 30s. And you were 12? I was going on 13. I remember, like, I think I was headed into eighth grade or high school, but we were in Mexico. And so I got in a taxi and he brought me to into eighth grade or high school, but we were in Mexico, and so I got in a taxi,

and he brought me to a... It's probably not illegal in Mexico, Dan, so technically it wasn't. But, yeah, no, no. That's how I lost my virginity. That is insane. Well,

it's not... Look, it's not what I would want for my kid but my experience of it i don't feel like a victim nor do i feel as though um it manifests itself in some really um pathological way later in my life no i mean that you may not want that. I can't prove that it didn't. Yeah, you're right. I can't prove that it didn't.

But I'm not aware of it. When I hear women talk about a serious transgression, and you obviously would know more than I would, I've heard real, you know, sort of pathologies were created later on or damaging their ability to maintain quality connections with people because of a profound lack of trust. But what I'm saying is I feel-

Is the ringing familiar? You know, I guess it does a little bit, but I just can't correlate it with that incident. I mean, a 12-year-old boy is a baby. This particular baby went into a whorehouse in Tijuana. And was, you know, with a stack of bills and an admission. Yeah. I mean, listen, we're laughing about it,

but if I found out that one of our friend's 12-year-old sons had sex with a 30-year-old prostitute, and, you know, I have nothing against prostitutes, I mean, I would lose my fucking mind. Yeah. No, that's fair. I mean, I wouldn't advise it i i was just questioning how you know how damaging it would be for somebody of the opposite sex and so it's very hard for me

to put my to to to position myself in such a way that i would see a man with a young girl in the same way that I would see an older woman with a young man. I just can't get there. Having sex with a 12 year old girl. Well, you'd want to, you'd want to hang him. You don't even, you go, you bypass prison and you put a bullet in his head. And so why not the same thing the other way around? Well, I don't have a good reason. Because it's fun, you understand. I mean, I was ready to roll, you know, at 13, and I wielded a piece.

I wielded a decent piece at 13. At 13, you were already developed physically, I gather. I had enough development to lay down a sawbuck at the old bar and ask for a tequila. I had enough development there. What I'm getting at, without putting too fine a point on it, is you were able to, you know, blow a load, I guess. Is there any more elegant way? I don't know.

You cut out for a minute. Yeah, there is, but go ahead. There probably is. Probably ejaculate, I guess, would be a more elegant way? I don't know. You cut out for a minute. Yeah, there is, but go ahead. There probably is. Probably ejaculate, I guess, would be a more elegant way. I was not until 17 years old. Nothing came out but air. I took it from the age of 17. It was very, very late.

How old are you? As a 12 year old boy I To me a penis Was nothing more than Something I used to Aim the P And had little use Other than that

Yeah How old are boys When they start Masturbating Well I was around You know I

I tore into A prostitute Probably not far, not long after I began masturbating. That's what gave me the idea to go to a whorehouse. And how did you even get there? Who were you in Mexico? Were you just like traveling around? No, no, my father was dating some woman and we went to some inexpensive place in Mexico. And I, and you know, back then in Mexico, you could get into a taxi and I said, bring me to the place with the girl, you know, and I had a little bit of money and,

you know, it's right outside the hotel. How much money could you have possibly had? Oh, you can get, I mean, it was a, maybe a $20 bill, you know, and then another few bucks for a taxi. I mean, you know, parts of Mexico, you could have walked a few blocks and run into a whorehouse. I mean, it's sad. And I feel for the prostitute. What an awful position to be in. Or to say no.

She was probably happy to see you because you got to figure, you know, if the guys had come in there, here's a guy that's a 12-year-old will not uh you know beat me probably is disease free and adorable to boot yeah i think so i mean i think i remember her being really sweet and sort of guiding me in you know not unlike not unlike uh you know if you're if you're taking lessons in a Cessna P-128 and, you know, the pilot's sitting next to you and you don't want to take the controls all on your own, of course, because you haven't landed one yet. But anyway, yes. What's that? Did you look older than 12, 13 or 13?

Not so much so that I didn't look really young you know like and maybe you know i probably seemed older than the average 13 year old who wouldn't go into a whorehouse and order a tequila i mean if there's something presumptuous about that type of child but and what was literally at 12 i don't think i knew what sex was, to be honest. I mean, we're going back some years. But I don't think I knew. My 10th birthday party outside, I watched my neighbor fuck a Magnus Brod in a lawn chair. And that was my 10th, and I still remember because I had a cake. I had a cake. Then I had a cake from Carvel, and my cake had tits on it.

Wait, you know what? Let me rephrase it it let me not rephrase but let me correct i didn't know what the sex act was because we had sex ed in fifth grade however i didn't know you're supposed to go back and forth i thought you just put it in and you kind of wait there you know yeah that that's what i thought the sex says well you stuck it in and something happened. The vagina did all the work. I didn't know you had to go up and down or in and out or back and forth. Yeah. Just figured you lied there and it extracted it. I figured that whatever was in there got extracted by the vagina.

I'm not sure what I thought, but I was very, very ignorant about that. You were 12. You were 12. You were 12. That's what you were. 12 in the era before YouTube and before Pornhub and all this stuff. Where you can find out anything. And then what happened? You were 17 when you found out.

I was 17 when I first. Then some years thereafter, I learned that sex, you had to go back and forth. But I'm saying I didn't have orgasm until 17. Right. And then, and then, then that was some years until I actually did have sex, as we've discussed. Yes. On this show on previous episodes, we don't need to rehash. Okay. And Doug, what was your second sexual encounter, which seems easy? Oh, it was this girl from high school. My first non-professional encounter was a girl from high school. I was probably about 15. So you waited three years. by Joyce. And I think I was more like 13 when I was with the prostitute. Like 13 going on 14. Because I was either 8th

grade or going into high school. So I was 14 as a freshman. So anyway, you know, 13. Well, 14 is the difference between 12 and 13. The difference? She's saying that 14 is a big difference from 12 if you were actually 14 with

the problem no no when i when i say i was 12 or 13 i i i couldn't remember whether or not i was headed into eighth grade so i'm born september 22nd so uh when i my first day of school i was as a freshman was 14 so it was definitely that. So I was definitely no older than 13. I just didn't remember if it was eighth grade or going into ninth grade. Anyway, yes. So I was about 13. You must have felt like a real baller going into eighth grade. No, no.

No, not at all. I felt very insecure headed into – but, you know, I had a very damaging child. I mean, I don't know. But, but it's a chicken or the egg, Perry, because I don't know that the damage didn't, I don't know that the prostitute experience added and added to any of the dysfunction or. I'll give you a hint here. It did. Well, I'll give you another hint here it did well i'll give you another hint no it didn't

perry ell is insane if she thinks that uh that that experience was traumatic for you you might have already been somewhat damaged which is what led you into that right in the first place i highly doubt a sexual experience yeah at that age was damaging at all. I would. In the league. I watched another. That you guys would think you could get anyone more qualified than myself with knowledge of psychology. That I would bet any amount of money that you're wrong.

Yeah. No, I wouldn't argue that. I also watched. I had an RV behind my house. We brought it over from the junkyard. I think it was, you know, used for scrap metal after that. But I made somebody watch when I was 12 years old, they said they wanted to use it to bang my neighbor. And I said, I get to watch it. And we made a deal. So my 10th birthday party, I remember the guy banged my neighbor. It was not

too fast. Yes, too fast. Your brain isn't developed. Anyway, we don't need to beat a dead horse. No, we don't need to beat a dead horse but um no we don't need to beat a dead horse so i don't know these period what what what about so what is an appropriate punishment do you think for somebody

that that is guilty of of the kind of crime that you know brian was accused of the worst of it. If he is contrite and you know, if he's dead and yet to... I mean, if he raped someone? Yes. I mean, I'm not particularly like, I don't know how much I care if somebody's contrite if they've raped somebody. You know, I don't

know. What does the law say? You know, I don't... I don't know what the law says. I don't know. I mean law say you know i i don't i know i don't know what the law says i don't know i mean i you know i i think that if you rape somebody then you should go i and you go on trial and you know if you're found guilty of rape you're found guilty of rape but you're making a good point and the progression in your point is that if you're guilty, and then the second progression was then you go to trial, or rather, I'm sorry, the trial determines the guilt. But that's not what takes place now with social media. And so there is no trial and there is no burden of proof. And so, you know the part you know that is very dangerous yeah it is dangerous um you know again i i don't know any of the players in any of this you know part of the conversation to me is about you know trying to figure out what you do when someone you care about or know deeply

and respect or admire does something that sort of rocks you to your core that you could never imagine them doing. I don't know if he's married. You said he has a family. They're in the middle of a divorce

thing, you know. All of that's going on, too. But certainly as a family. Yeah. Yeah, I certainly, I mean, obviously, like, fully support women coming forward and telling their

stories. And I think that, you know, apparently he's a successful actor in the public eye. I don't know, whatever. It's hard to do that, you know? And so I think it's important that women do that so that in some way, I do believe that when we see- Oh, I don't disagree with that.

Oh, I know you don't. I don't think that for one second. Of course you don't. I know that. I'm saying that I think that part of what's gone on, you know, since the beginning of time is that men get away with this because nobody speaks up because there are real ramifications. I mean, I think that's one of the things, and Brian said this himself in a little snippet that I watched today, saying that, like, now that we've had the Me Too movement,

you know, you can't just do that shit anymore. Right. I agree, and that's a positive externality of that, right? I mean, that's a positive externality of that right now that's a positive you know yes result but the um but that the degree to which that positive um still leaves this other variable yeah and the other variable is is convicted without a kind of due process. And then the degrees of guilt, you know, when, when, when all of that came out about Louie, I heard Sarah Silverman get on,

I think Howard Stern and say long before Louie became famous, he asked me and my sister to jerk off in front of us. So there was no sort of power differential at the time, physically, but she didn't communicate that there was any fear at all and that they were friends. And he was, and they said, okay, they said, okay, we'll watch. And she said, later on, perhaps, you know, one of the variables you can make louis look like an animal or you can go oh this was kind of his thing and he was not intentionally using some showbiz leverage to pull his cock out humiliate people because that wasn't sarah's experience of it at all and without

her communicating that context we can either paint him into a corner like an absolute lunatic and an abuser, or we can say, you know, maybe the wires got crossed and his 20 years of really thoughtful, fascinating comedic exploration should not be invalidated. And that there is a lot of gray area here,

which is, I think, what the comedy community did with Louis. I think he has been sort of re-embraced and that is a very careful sort of contextual evaluation that went on. And without Sarah saying those things and without other women coming out, where would Louis be?

Would he be on the continuum between Weinstein and Aziz on the other end? Where would he be? Would he be closer to Weinstein? How badly do we want to indict a man and remove his ability to make a living? I'm not talking about, you know, yeah. I just feel like there is this real gray zone here yes i also think okay so here's the thing the thing the problem is or one of the problems is when you talk about guys raping people or sexually assaulting people and i'm not even using anybody that you're necessarily talking about right now but in general the first thing that people say is oh but it was this but it was that or he was sorry or it was a long time ago or they were drunk or he didn't mean it and it's like you know what or where does redemption come and it's

like you know what all of those things are fine um that's not where we start right we start with um first of all like if this happened and then you can get to the redemption and all this other shit so i think that um yeah we we don't want to be convicting and trying people and ruining people's lives on social media. Um, but we also don't want to start redeeming people before we even, you know, a rape accusation. That's like really fucking serious.

Yeah. So it's like, I just want to know what happened. And then. The thing, you know, we'll never, you can never really know.

I mean, it's, yeah. You, you know, we'll never, you can never really know. I mean, yeah, you, you know, that's the tricky part about rape as a crime is it's so tough to there's two people were there and, you know, it's, it's very hard to to really, really know. Is there, are there people, are there men who have sort of been on and off stage? And granted, they have to suffer some of the liability, like the kinds of men that go with a lot of different women.

Do you think that there are men out there that are on and off, you know, stage, nightclubby, guitar, you know, musician, stand-up, actory in Hollywood people that had not, over the course of a couple of decades, been, I'm not talking about rape, I'm just talking about in general, people that lead those lives, intoxicated, late nights. Do you think any one of those people could really stand up to 20 years worth of kind of social media level scrutiny with how many guitarists in a band do you think don't have a girl going he tried to kiss me i said no he's like how many of those experiences like it's hard for me to imagine for sure anybody being able to get through that gauntlet without somebody feeling transgressed. For sure. And there are people that need to be in prison.

And so... I think I could withstand it, but Nikki Glaser once complained that I was staring at her creepy. There's no doubt about that. Other girls have felt that they were stared at

Yeah but by the way The word creepy In the wrong context If Nikki wanted to pitch that in a way where she felt Transgressed And or violated And we removed the context of the nightclub And two comedians

I don't know that she couldn't Paint somebody into a corner well that's a difficult charge to make that somebody was looking at them funny you know that would be hard to make that stick but um no no not funny no no i felt threatened by the way that person was looking at me i'm not talking talking about funny. I'm talking about I can, as a woman, I could absolutely feel that I was being threatened by the way that person was looking at me. I felt creeped out.

They were staring at me. You know, the degree to which that's communicated and how it's communicated could certainly create a misdemeanor level, you know, offense for you. Well, there you go. I'm not saying it's a good thing. You thought that you were all in the clear and now this.

Yeah, like I'm not saying it's ruinous for a career necessarily, but if a number of women came out and said, I felt creeped out, I felt this, I don't know that that couldn't do some theoretical damage. Dan's now going through all of the women he stared at. Well, I've done some staring over the years, but I didn't think it was rose to the level of a Me Too offense.

But I'm not saying it does. What I'm saying is, it would not surprise me if you'd gone in for a kiss over the years and the girl wasn't necessarily um ready for it or you misread the cue and she wants to go listen i was in the corner dan tried to do this like depending i never i never made lip contact with an unwilling woman because but i i first found very slightly you said no that's what you said that isn't necessarily over the course of 20 years if you're um being looked at on social media what

they would say that's just what you would say well perhaps um in any case. Anything else that we want to stay on this? I just thought like the nature of a transgression, and I'm not talking about the sort of, I'm not talking about the level of rape. I mean, the idea that wires got crossed in somebody, and I'm not trying to exonerate anybody for behaving inappropriately. I'm talking about people that, you know,

yeah, I don't know. I mean, if it happened with Aziz and it happened with, over the course of 20 years, if you walked in with a lot of people, men or women, it's hard to imagine somebody along those lines not going,

yeah, I didn't like the way he did X. Yeah, that's for sure, I'm sure, true, especially in the line of work you're describing. But also probably in every line of work, in every industry. Yeah, no, I agree. I just thought that much more in an environment

where people are drinking late into the night as opposed to a firm on Wall Street. I'm sure it's happening there as well. It's just, I thought it was a better analogy in a nightclub kind of environment. Although you'd be surprised

at the stories that I've heard about people pulling their dicks out in the middle of conference halls. Every time there is some, you know, these office Christmas parties are famous for transgression. But, you know, I don't want to minimize

any real offense. I just want to mitigate hypocrisy. And when men go, I never... Let me put a camera on you for 20 years, motherfucker, and see whether or not there's been a girl somewhere along the way over 21 years that didn't feel like you were picking up cues right. I be very careful. For those of you who, you know, who believe you can walk on water, I doubt.

Speaking of walking on water, have either one of you been doing any shows? Well, I'm not sure what that has to do with walking on water. I was in Central Park doing a stand-up. New York has a series, Stand-Up New York in the Park, where they're doing shows in Central Park and in Battery Park and a few other parks. And I'll just say that normally as a comic, I have to worry about

hecklers, not frisbees, but I did a show by an oak tree in Sheep Meadow with no microphone because apparently you need a permit to have a microphone. I didn't know this. So we just basically stood there in front of an oak tree on Sheep Meadow, no microphone because apparently you need a permit to have a microphone. I didn't know this. We just basically stood there in front of an oak

tree on Sheep Meadow, Big Oak, near the west side of Sheep Meadow and just did a show for people seated on the grass like campfire style in a semicircle. It wasn't bad, actually. People were happy to be there.

Yeah. How do you do it with a mic? Pardon? How does that work without a mic, though? Can everybody hear you? If everybody sits really close and you project, then it can be done. I thought the whole point is not everybody's supposed to sit really close. Well, we kept it six-plus feet apart, maybe 10 feet apart at least.

They sat really close, 10 feet apart? Well, that kept it six plus feet apart, maybe 10 feet apart at least. They sat really close, 10 feet apart? Well, that's fairly close. In any case, they seemed to hear, you know, maybe the oak tree guided the sound in a good way, but I don't know. Then when we were in the park on Tuesday, that rabbi, he had a mic. He had a mic. I don't know if it was a rabbi. We were in the park. A rabbi was giving some sort of religious lecture. Well, I assume it was a religious lecture because he was a rabbi was uh he had a mic he had a mic i don't know if he had if it was a rabbi we were in the park a rabbi was giving some sort of religious lecture well i assume it was a religious lecture because he was a rabbi i mean i you know it wasn't just talking about uh how to pick up girls

yeah you happen to be an orthodox jew but he was he was a guy with a yarmulke and uh yeah a microphone in central park giving some sort of a lecture. Yeah, it would surprise me if he were just yelling about different delis and arguing with himself about what the best pastrami. Yeah, yeah, it was a lecture, religious. I assume it was religious in nature. And he had a mic, and I don't know if he had a permit or if he just did it anyway.

I'm not sure. But I'm told you need a permit to have a microphone in the park. That's such fucking bullshit. Who cares? Why do you need a permit to have a microphone in the park. That's such fucking bullshit. Who cares? Why do you need a permit to have a fucking microphone in the park? Who gives a shit? Because people... People in the park are trying to enjoy themselves. They don't want to be harangued

by a comedy show. Harangued? Not everybody wants to see a comedy show. And even if you enjoy comedy, maybe you prefer... Maybe you don't like the pithy one-liners, say, of a Todd Barry. And even if you enjoy comedy, maybe you prefer, maybe you don't like the pithy one-liners, say, of a Todd Barry. You know?

Actually, he doesn't really do one-liners, but you know. We should have Todd back on because we got, because Noam came on last time and you know, it sort of, we never got to really talk to Todd about Todd. Well, but Todd doesn't like to talk about Todd. Well, but perhaps to some degree.

I mean, I think we got off into an area that Todd wasn't prepared to go to, which was cultural and political. We can have Todd back on. Hey, everybody. Hey, everybody. That was really good, Dan. Hey, everybody. It's a 101

imitation. It's a 101 Todd. Yeah, it's a 101. It's not even a good imitation Of somebody that's easy to imitate Which is what I do, that's my specialty Poor imitations of people that are easy to imitate You actually do good imitations And every time I tell you that You sort of

You poo-poo it He's not good at taking compliments At all though, he's not He's the worst He doesn't know at all, though. He's not. Oh, he's the worst. He's the worst. He doesn't know how to take a compliment. Can't do it. And he's never been with a prostitute before the age of 14.

You can only imagine. How screwed up would Dan be if he had lost his virginity in Mexico at 13 years old? I think I was a lot more screwed up by not losing it until I think that's a lot more traumatic to spend four years in college with no sex whatsoever, sitting in my dorm room on a Saturday night

watching SNL. You shouldn't be watching Saturday Night Live in college because you should be out partying. I was watching SNL and I could hear the girls outside whooping and hollering, in college because you should be out partying. Yeah. I was watching SNL and I heard, I could hear the girls outside whooping and hollering, Lou Theda.

And yeah, yeah, it was upsetting. I'm not going to lie. And far more traumatic than sex at 14 would have been with a 30 year old teacher or prostitute. Well, the grass is,

you want to talk about traumatic. I went to a fraternity party by myself that I had no one to go with. And I had to keep walking. Because if I stopped, I had no one to talk to. And I looked ridiculous just standing there. So I had to keep moving. And then I

bumped into this one girl that I knew from my dorm. And she said, Dan, are you here alone? And I said, no. No, I'm with a friend of mine he's um i don't know i lost him you know somewhere i don't know but um you know all right well it's 803 you gotta leave him wanting more i thought maybe it's not a good story but but uh i will say that uh that to me was traumatic and um The thing that's frustrating is that had you gone outside, I'm sure there were probably plenty of girls you could have had sex with between the ages of 18 and 21. A, I'm not so sure.

And B, I mean, I was so shy. I couldn't talk to anybody, you know, and I, you know, it might've been, might've been the case, might've been the case. He's not, he's not doing that now either. Ariel. I mean, I, you know, I mean, every now and then, now and then something will fall up in his lap, but Dan is not going after it in a meaningful way. It's not what he does.

I don't go after it in a meaningful way, but I know the option is there, so that makes me less, it's less upsetting. Of course, yes. It wasn't the lack of sex that was upsetting so much.

It was the completely being on the outside looking in. Yes, of course. Of course. No, that was upsetting to me. But now you're on the inside looking out. I don't know that I'm on the inside.

I'm more on the inside than I used to be. Right. But, you know. There are lepers more on the inside than you used to be. I was as outside as you're going to get, you know, but anyhow, we've done our hour

and, you know, we always like to keep it tight. Yeah. So why don't we bid adieu until next time everybody you can write us at comedy seller podcast at comedy seller dot com for comment suggestions and

you can give the the Instagram handle we are at at live from the table. At live from the table. See you next time, everybody. Bye-bye.