The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - BONUS EPISODE: Comedy, Antisemitism and the Woke Left

Episode Date: March 6, 2021

Dov Hikind is an American politician, activist, and radio talk show host. He is a former Democratic New York State Assemblyman. Hatem Gabr is the co-host of the podcast, Live from America.   

are recording. This is Live from the Table, the official podcast of New York's world-famous comedy seller, coming at you on Sirius XM 99, Raw Dog, and on the Laugh Button Podcast Network. This is Dan Natterman with me, as always, Noam Dorman, owner of the world-famous comedy seller. We have Periel Ashton, brand new producer. Haram Gab, former manager of the comedy seller and longtime friend of the comedy Cellar is with us. And we also have Dov Heikind is with us. He's an American politician, activist, radio talk show host, former Democratic New York State Assemblyman. And he is with us. Hello, Mr. Heikind. How are you tonight?

Good. Good to be with you. And, Nolan, you were very particularly excited about inviting Mr. Heikendon. Please call me Dove. Dove, got it, okay. Please, please. We have a good friend named Dove, actually. He pronounced it Dove, you pronounced it Dove. But he's much less wholesome than you are, I'll tell you that right now.

Don't be so sure. So let's get into the NBC thing. Now, we should preface this by saying, and this is what's interesting to me, and just so you know, I'm a pretty hardline, pro-Israel, very sensitive to rising anti-Semitism on the left. I'm the type of person who is normally on your side about almost everything. I'm not necessarily not on your side about this, but we know Michael Che. We know him very well. And I would tell you, beyond any shadow of a doubt,

he's not anti-Semitic, not in the slightest. And yet he said these things which are very troublesome to the Jewish people, and you've accused him of anti-Semitism. I don't know if you meant that him personally or NBC. And I wanted to talk about it because it's interesting for me at this point to know somebody so closely who's caught up in this kind of thing. And I can vouch for him and I want to defend him while at the same time acknowledge what I'm sure I agree with you is wrong with the joke.

So why don't you want to tell us your position on it? Sure, sure. Of course. First of all, I appreciate being with you tonight. I'm delighted. We made it very clear myself and our organization, Americans Against Antisemitism, when we went to NBC Saturday night to protest, we made it very, very clear. We are not calling NBC anti-Semites. And we're not calling Michael Che an anti-Semite. I would never do that because I don't know the guy. I mean, I don't know. I don't know that because I don't know the guy. I mean, I don't know him. I don't know his history. I can't remember anything that he's done in the past except, you know,

one other skit that he did, the Miss Hitler beauty pageant a number of months ago, which, you know, the punchline of that was, guess who won the Miss Hitler beauty pageant, it was Miss Israel. I mean, that was not cool. You know, I, by the way, I, you don't know me, but I love comedy. I grew up with the Marx brothers, not during their time. But my wife and I, you know, going to, you know, the village to watch their films, because like a lot, like most people in America, laughing is healthy. It's great just to crack up and to smile and have belly laughs. So I enjoy comedy. The issue with Michael Che and NBC was that what they did was not funny. But that's not the point.

A lot of stuff is not funny. You know, comedians are great. They're not always funny. Okay. You know, comedians are great. They're not always funny. OK. But, you know, the rhetoric, the stuff with the vaccine, you know, half of the Israelis got vaccinated. Guess which half the Jews that plays into and the anti-Semitic stereotype, you know, you know, the the one about Jews not caring for anyone else. They're self-centered. They only care for their own, that kind of stuff. First of all, from a going on in Arab villages all over Israel, everyone has received literally equal treatment when it comes to the vaccine. Now, some of the people in the Arab community, like the Haredi Jewish community, you know, not everybody wants to be vaccinated. But as far as the people of Israel, Jew and non-Jew, no two standards.

No one can point that out. No one can say that. So this joke, so-called joke, the motto is sort of anti-Semitism is never funny. So I found it very disconcerting. And then the other one about the Miss Beauty contest, the Miss Beauty contest. Our message to NBC and to Michael contest, the Miss Beauty contest. I, we were, you know, we, our message to NBC and to Michael Che, you know, we want to educate. We would like for NBC to recognize that, hey, you know, maybe this was not cool. Maybe this was not correct. By the way, we live in a, we live in a culture today where if I look at you the wrong way, I could get canceled tomorrow morning or tonight.

Where if you find something I said 20 years ago, 20 years ago or 10 years ago or 25, you know, my career could be over in a moment. That's the world we live in. It's not a world that I, I think it's a terrible world, what we have created in our society with this cancel culture. But that's the point. We're sensitive in our today about everybody. We're very careful what we say about every single group, be it the minority community, be it the gay community, whatever. But for some reason, when it comes to the Jewish community, there's a different standard. And I want to point out, you know, while I, you know, I'm a Democrat, and I'm more to the political right, the Conference of Presidents of major American Jewish organization,

which consists of a cross section of Jewish groups from right to left, liberal, conservative, more liberal than conservative, American Jewish Committee, they all took the same stand. They're all asking for an apology. So I would like nothing more than to be able to speak to Michael Che. You know, and actually, you know, Joe Piscopo, who used to be a star on Saturday Night Live, you know, I do his show on a regular basis. I said to him, I wish I could talk to Michael Che. I wish I could explain to him why I am disturbed by this kind of stuff. Okay, so just a few comments. And then I want to let you know, whoever's else on the panel want to talk. As far as the in no particular order, as far as the Miss Hitler skit, I didn't see that skit. And maybe if I saw it, I would agree with it.

But I would say that this kind of high, extremely politically incorrect, iconoclastic humor, you know, this is something Mel Brooks toyed with this too, with a lot of Hitler humor, you know, and maybe it goes out easier when it comes out of somebody who's, you know, can't be questioned like Mel Brooks for us Jews than it would out of somebody who's not Jewish. But I'm going to take the time to watch that skit afterwards. But as far as the cancel culture thing, it's very interesting, because I think that we, and I hate cancel culture, we kind of have to also be careful not to try to have it both ways, which is on the one hand, admonish everybody to have a thicker skin, but then also at the same time,

complain when our ox is gored and then kind of say, well, listen, if you're going to be canceled culture, then you should be upset about this. And it's easy to play it both ways. I think that we all agree that everybody should have a thicker skin. But there are also times when, no, you're not going to be able to dress it up. It actually is hateful. And hateful is what we all, I think, all decent people want to stand against. And what cancel culture does, it doesn't seem to know the difference between hate and technicalities and mistakes and things that happened many, many years ago and apologies and personal growth and

all that stuff. It bundles them all into one thing. I would also say that while you and I and probably all of us here are keenly aware of the differences between Israel proper and Arabs in Israel, Arab citizens of Israel and people in the occupied territories. To the general population, they're not that concerned about that. Either they're not aware of it or that's really not their point. Their point is, listen, as far as I'm concerned,

Israel is in control of all these Arabic people. Some are citizens, some are in occupied territories. And as far as I'm concerned, if the fact that they're Arabic is being used in any way as a demarcation of whether or whether or not they get the vaccine, I find that to be a difficult moral dilemma at minimum and maybe outright human rights violation at maximum. And these are all, I think, reasonable issues to discuss. I myself, I went in, I read Oslo. I saw that Oslo, I can bring it up here in a second, Oslo clearly, clearly turns over

healthcare to the Palestinians as well as vaccinations. Gaza actually is not even occupied any longer. And since Gaza is sworn to Israel's destruction, I likened it to politically to, you know, expecting America to put occupied Al Qaeda ahead of America for vaccinations. So I get all that. And yet, it is very troubling to see these righteous victims, to use Benny Morris's term, going without vaccines, while the people who really do control their destiny, and I'm sure the first thing you're thinking, and I agree, is that whose fault is that? That's their own, or at least their leadership's own fault. But nevertheless, nevertheless, it's heartbreaking to see, you know? heartbreak i think is really the long and the short of what the comedian then

is trying to make light of and to us yes it does it's very painful for us because it does it is it is fuel and nourishment for all the anti-semites out there who want to say you see and i had an argument with on hatem with with a guy and he was basically likening the he didn't use the word nazis but he was likening the israel to the nazis and as and i was furious all right so unless you want to respond directly to what i said i'd like to bring hatem in who's an egyptian and um uh maybe wants to comment on how he feels. And he's extremely knowledgeable. What do you say about all this, Hatem? About the joke or the vaccine?

The joke, the vaccine, all of the things that this touches on. It's very complicated, actually. Go ahead. I think it is complicated. I always, for me, for my position, I always like to separate the government from the people. So there's the Palestinian people So there's the Palestinian people and there's the Palestinian government, you know, there's the Israeli people and there's the Israeli government, you know. So you cannot blame the people for their government, you know, for the

actions of the government. At the end of the day, they're humans, you know, and by that i mean the palestinians government we know it's corrupt you know uh we let it be corrupt you know uh we allowed it to be corrupt and by by we i don't know why i'm saying we uh i mean israel let it no no you you you mean you yeah yeah i mean we i agree we do have a part in it but you know i know, I think it works well for the Israeli government to have that Palestinian government, you know, because Hamas is a terrorist organization, should have been destroyed, ISIS, Al-Qaeda, all of that. But instead, you let them and say, oh, election brought them.

Really? Election? Really? Like, you know, so that's one thing. So the Palestinian people Deserve to get the vaccine You occupied the territories You have control over the border You can let them in or out So does Egypt

As well You're talking about Gaza now I'm talking about Gaza specifically So let's try to confine it To the areas that would bring us back to the joke By the way, Dan, I appreciate the opportunity for me to speak and, of course, for Hakim. But when he uses the word Israel occupied that area, the fact of life is, if we want to talk about facts, In 1967, I remember, I was 17 years old. I remember Monday morning when I heard on the radio, on WINS, that the Egyptians had bombed parts of Israel

in the Six-Day War. Of course, it wasn't true. But I remember the two weeks or three weeks before the Six-Day War. I can literally see, right at this moment, the Egyptian soldiers marching through Cairo, literally chanting that they were going to push the Jews into the sea. We remember, I mean, history, you know, people forget history, and unless you study it continuously, it's easy just not to remember. But Israel, in June of 1967, or the weeks before, the Jordanians, the Syrians, and the Egyptians in particular, they attacked the state of Israel. They attacked the state of Israel. It's interesting that Judea and Samaria The West Bank was part of Jordan Illegally occupied

But why are you starting the history from 1967? Why not from before that? If you want to talk about who attacked who Or who went who I want to talk about just the human part Of the vaccine part And then we can get into that discussion You mentioned the word occupied

They occupied There have been so many opportunities For peace, both under Ehud Barak, both under Ehud Omar, where the Israeli government was willing to give up 97%, 97% of Judea and Samaria. History is a funny thing. You know, the facts are a funny thing, but 97% of that land, we could have had peace. By the way, if you don't mind, just to set the record straight, none of this had to happen, this, this, the Middle East two, one for the Jews. And Jerusalem, by the way, was going to be internationalized. The Jews were not happy, by the way, at all. Okay. But they said, yes, it was the other side, along with six nations that attacked the state of Israel. And I don't

want to apologize for the fact that the people of Israel were victorious. I wish the other side had accepted that agreement, and then the Middle East would be thriving. The Palestinian people would be thriving like no one else in the world. But unfortunately, you said it yourself. You know, Israel is a democracy. Mahmoud Abbas has been the leader now for what, 20 years? I've lost track. There have been no elections. And by the way, just for the record, I'm sorry, but there was an election. The reason that Hamas controls Gaza

is precisely because there was an election. And guess what? They won. Well, if you want to call it election and they won, that's not true. You could say that, but that's not true because you know, more than anybody, the fear of voting and they counted the votes and they won.

Yeah. Hold on. So let me get, let me comment on that and I want to get back to the joke. So I think that without replaying the entire history from the, the twenties or the 1800s or wherever you want to start the story, you know, the, the, I think the best, or the 1800s or wherever you want to start the story. I think the most constructive place to start the story is when Arafat walked out of Camp David

and when then Olmert then re-upped the deal and made it sweeter and Abbas walked out. And the reason I say that is because in those instances, we have an objective or supposedly objective broker, the United States of America, Bill Clinton, Dennis Ross, people who were in the room who are not Jews. And by the way, Bill Clinton, who did not even come to office, that apparently disposed to take Israel's side. I mean, I remember when Clinton first took over, Hillary Clinton made statements that really made it seem that she was not pro-Israel. So anyway, and if you read their accounts of what happened, they were absolutely outraged with the behavior of the Palestinians. And by the way, that's what turned Benny Morris, who was, you know, went from left to far right based on his-

Why did you deal with these people? Wait, wait wait hold on hold on listen let me tell let me say so that's where we start the story but i'm almost there so um but it's uh now i lost my train of thought so so if you wanted to get into that now of course if israel had intervened and not allowed an election or put somebody in power no matter how you want to replay history israel would be the bad guy for whatever decision, because in the end, it would always turn out badly. It's not like if only Israel had done X, Y, Z, the Arabs in Gaza would be looking to hold hands and it wouldn't have destroyed the greenhouse or whatever. There is real animosity there. And the real animosity

is not going to be dressed up by anything unless the animosity fades away. And I know you agree with me on that. And I want to say one more thing. What is especially bitter, and I think maybe as Jews we get too defensive this way, and maybe we feel that we have to defend every policy of Israel, even if it shouldn't be defended,

is that as opposed to no other nation, somehow, if we concede that Israel's done something wrong, then somehow we're conceding Israel's right to exist. That is wrong. And that is, I think, what really kills me. You know, Israel was created by the United Nations. Love it, don't love it. The United Nations is the gold standard of what every left-wing person considers we're supposed to go by. We want- Still till now or just-

No, I'm saying, in other words, Israel is created by the United Nations, period. It is a country. When China rounds people up in concentration camps, as they have a million Muslims, and I'm sure they're not getting the vaccine, by the way. Not only does nobody care, but even if they do care, they never take the next step and say, maybe we should reconsider this whole China thing.

No, China is going to be a country. Germany is going to be a country, and Israel is going to be a country, even if they do something horrible. And if you can see that. Yeah. I want to be focused on one. Let's get to the joke. Let's get to the joke.

I want to focus on one thing. The reason, the whole reason of the joke and all this is that the amazing success of Israel in the vaccine, through the vaccine and through the COVID, they managed to do better than anyone in the world. You know, they managed to vaccinate. Right now, they vaccinate.

Per capita, yes. So based on that, when you see that Israel is donating vaccines to somebody else rather than the Palestinians, that's morally, and- Oh, let's stop there. So Mr. Huyken, what do you think about, what do you think about the fact

that they gave 2,000 doses? I think they gave three batches of 2,000 doses, Hungary, someplace else, and someplace else, and 2,000 or 3,000 to the – I'm sure they went to Abbas and his friends on the West Bank, but go ahead. First of all, let me just tell you that I'm not one of the people you're talking about who always agrees with everything the government of Israel does. I love Israel, but hey, it's a country and they make mistakes. And I disagree with policies of the prime ministers in Israel. And I've been public about it over the many, many years. Look, right now, the Israeli government announced that they're going to be vaccinating tens of thousands of Palestinians in the coming days. Look, they did a great job within the state of Israel, the 9 million citizens, 2 million Muslims and Christians, and so on, everyone being treated the same way. I mean,

as you pointed out, you know your history, Remarkable. I mean, it's wonderful. It's a pleasure to listen to someone who is aware of, you know, not my facts, the facts, period. Thank you. So it's really beautiful. I compliment you. You're always talking to me. No, I meant you. I meant you.

Not that. I didn't mean that. But anyway, listen, I want to laugh tonight. I don't want to. This is way too serious. It's not what I expected, but I love it. You got to deal with everything. And but the point is that, look, I would love to see the Israeli government, which is now, by the way, partnering. I mean, look, I am so freaking proud. This little country of nine million people. I mean, really, nine million people, and they have

done such a remarkable job. And now they're partnering with Norway and another country in Europe. And some of the Europeans are upset that they're partnering with Israel. Look, more should be done. Every person should get the vaccine. You talk about a lot of people not getting the vaccine in the Middle East, you know, Palestinians. Look what's going on in our country. Look how behind we are. This is America and we can't get our freaking act together. Well, let me press you on this. So Israel gives 2,000 back, you know, it was some, I'm sure, diplomatic goal. They give 2,000, the New York Times called the number a token, but they give 2,000 vaccines to Hungary, let's say. What was at stake there that was so important for them that it was worth that look?

Because it looks bad. It really looks bad. I cannot tell you, but again, I'll give you the very latest. The Israeli courts just, I think this is the last 24 hours, that no vaccines can be given to other countries at this point. So again, Israel is a true democracy. When people challenge the Israeli government, look, let's not fool ourselves. There's an election going on in Israel, March 23rd. Netanyahu is running for re-election. We know what elections are all about, or at least I do. You want to go out there and do whatever you can. Netanyahu has appeared in so many Arab villages, you know, to sort of tout the fact that the vaccine is available and working with those communities. By the way, the prime minister of Israel actually apologized for a comment he made in 2015 that was not proper.

He just did that in the election just now. So, look, more can be done. More should be done. I don't have any problem with that. But Mahmoud Abbas at the very beginning of all this told the Israeli government at the very beginning, we'll take care of things. Yeah, because and that's again, you know, what exactly I'm saying. The Israeli people will press their government to do the right thing. The Palestinian people also have the right.

It's the opposite. The Palestinian leaders were trying to make them suffer more to say hey look israel is doing that while they got the vaccine and everybody in the palestinian government got it you know exactly they said that before i i know the story of yasser arafat you know i know how he started why did everybody support him why everybody kept going with him because they knew that he is far away from the palestinian people as possible and i think that's a big mistake that everybody israel and the United States and everybody who truly want peace. You know, I was born in Kuwait.

Yasser Arafat was an engineer in Kuwait, wrote to the prince of Kuwait a letter with the blood, save Palestine. He gave him thousands of millions of dollars. And then he started. He had no concept. He doesn't care about the people. And this is over and over and over. It's always happened.

And you still want to talk about Mohammed Abbas and Arafat and these people. And this is over and over and over. It's always happened. And you still want to talk about Muhammad Abbas and Arafat and these people. No, they're not presenting of the people. You know? So do you acknowledge... So Dov said something at the end there, which I don't have any...

I hadn't read it. I'm not saying it's true or it's not true, but I wonder if you know about it or if you acknowledge it. He says that Abbas told the Israelisis we will take care of this have you heard that do you acknowledge that yes yes and not only that there is a significant if that's something even even worse you know um uh you know um because of there's also, you know, election coming out in Palestine. So they wanted,

the United Arab Emirates just got, you know, give vaccines, 20,000 vaccines to the other one running again. So it's all a game. It's all politics. They don't give a fuck about the people, you know? So yeah, I'm aware of Abbas and I expect it from politics. They don't give a fuck about the people, you know? So yeah, I'm aware of Abbas and I expect it from him. I don't even care for him. I don't, I know that

he doesn't know, but I tell you, coming from the Middle East, growing up there, I know, and I said it so many times, you know, they will ask the prime minister of Palestine a question in Arabic and in English. He will say one answer in Arabic, one answer in English, but that's nothing, not happening anymore because. But that's nothing, not happening anymore because people know, you know, that doesn't mean that Israeli government is all angels. They're not either,

but the people gonna press it, you know? So when the Israeli government do a lot of wrong things, yes, you know, I'll stand against it, you know? And I will say it. That doesn't mean that anything that somebody attacks somebody

or say a joke, that it's anti-Semitic the joke comes no joke comes from nothing the joke came because there is an issue there is something people believe that's happening israel can easily just like they have the track a great track in covid they could have had a great track of training of the palestinians but because people are questioning that's that's a problem for the government of israel and that's where the joke came from so mr hiking dope dope dope my father was mr hiking i want to read you from um foxnews.com a very you know a sacredly reliable so i'm kidding um uh and And this is a quote by somebody named Brooke Goldstein, executive director of the Lawfare Project. And this rubbed me the wrong way, I have to tell you.

It says, Michael Che is a bigot, plain and simple. Not only was his joke the laziest form of comedy, it perpetuated a vile lie that stands to exacerbate already rising anti-Semitism of the United States. NBC must make it clear and blah, blah, blah. And I just think we should hold back that personal attack. It's counterproductive. Even if it were true, and it's not true in this case, even if it were true, it puts the other side in a position that you want them to apologize. Now they have to concede, you're right, I'm a bigot. And they're not going to do that.

Dan, I object to that. I don't accept that. And, you know, I have never had a problem, if you know me, calling people what I believe they are. But we got to be careful before we call people anti-Semites. We got to reserve that for the anti-Semites. But I have a question. So why a joke to me, because of, you know, working with comedy and all that is like,

comedy should be off limit because comedy is, you know, what anti-Semitic, like how they get treated in airplanes or, or, or airports, stuff like that, but not, but not like, I don't know. It's a joke. It's a joke. It's, it's, you know, No, well, you know, millions of people are watching. This is NBC. This is major, major network. And there are implications of the things that are said.

And when you indulge in a stereotype, this is, again, this is an anti-Semitic stereotype that plays into a lot of haters all over the world who say, you know, the Jews, they don't care for anybody else. By the way, let me just point out something else, Dan, if you don't mind. You know, there are approximately 8 billion people in the world today, a little less than that. The Jewish people everywhere, total, America, Israel, you name it, we're about 15 million. I mean, I don't even know, that doesn't register in percent. I mean, it's such a joke. And what I'm saying to you is that I don't think Michael Che had any clue that what he was saying, that it was something that was

dangerous. I'm using the word dangerous. Yeah. Because not that Michael Che meant anything and maybe not even look, you know, according to you, Dan, or, you know, the writers at NBC, they must be brilliant historians and they must be brilliant at following the current events because they're so sophisticated. This joke was so sophisticated, you know know that that they understood exactly and people are going to get you know people were laughing why you know when people laugh at something like that the miss uh hitler beauty pageant the winner is miss israel and people laugh what are they laughing at what are they what i want to say what's funny about What's funny about it? Because you said something. Try doing that against the gay community or against the black community or against other people in America. Try doing that and see what the reaction is going to be.

Okay, so let me ask you this. Let me ask you this because, you know, it's very interesting when you say it's very dangerous. Do you remember an incident including a subway security holding a picture of somebody and say they look like that? What are you talking about? Just say what you're referring to. No, I'm asking Dov. I don't remember. Okay, just be a little more particular.

Okay, let me see. You sure came prepared, huh, Hatem? No, I didn't. No, I just saw it because, you know, I mean, I was, I knew Mr. Dove. I don't want to say Mr. Thank you. By the way, Hatem, I don't know if you realize it,

but you left your targets showing behind you in the backdrop there. That was Tony. That was Tony's joke. By the way, and by the way, this is a very good example. So I made a joke just now. You left your targets. People listen.

He has a picture of Statue of Liberty and the Freedom Tower. So you left your targets showing in the backdrop. Now, he could say, this is a very dangerous joke. You're comparing the Arabs to terrorists and blah, blah, blah. And in a certain sense, he's right. And yet, it is just a joke. You're comparing the Arabs to terrorists and blah, blah, blah. And in a certain sense, he's right. And yet it is just a joke. And it's hard to separate it all out. But go ahead, Altamir, what do you want to say? I actually wanted to say something similar to what you say. It's like, I make a lot of jokes about Israel and Jews and stuff like that. And my friends never get upset or call me anything. And vice versa, if Jews make about Muslims, it's fine too.

You know, but somehow, or if the Jewish make fun of themselves or Muslim, but when a, you know, somebody that's not Jewish or an comedian, and yet he get in a lot of trouble. Well, so I have a question. First of all, so is the whole problem with this joke then is that it's perpetuating or allegedly perpetuating

an anti-Semitic trope that is... Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm talking. So, and so, but Larry David can get on SNL and make a Holocaust joke and that's okay?

What Holocaust joke? What do you mean? Larry David? He means which one? What was, no. Let's not, we're all Jewish here to my wife's chagrin, you know, but let's just be frank. Sometimes jokes are pointed messages, and sometimes it hurts. And Larry David, I'm sure, was making an absurdist joke about the Holocaust.

Who knows what it was? Maybe you can look it up. How can Michael just think of that same? One second. But not all jokes on any subject matter, not all rape jokes, not all Holocaust jokes are created equal. The point of this joke to people might be that the Jews are purposely keeping a life-saving medicine away from people because they're Arabic. Essentially allowing them to die. Do you really think people... Hold through means like this through they couldn't get them to die through uh acts of commission

so they're going to get them to die through through acts of omission that is a very very very serious charge now you may say that's not actually the charge of the joke but it's not but it's but it's not an absurd interpretation of the joke either. I honestly think what the joke was about is there is a country that have both people living in it. That's the whole thing. That's the whole thing. like me are so emotionally and so knowledgeable about this stuff that it's really impossible or very difficult to perceive the way it washes over somebody who knows very little about it,

you know? And, and it's, to me, it seems like such a calumny, but I think that to the people that tell the joke, it's just like, yeah,

it's Israel and the Arabs got the shit under the stick and what, and here it is again. And ha ha ha. Okay. So my point of of uh of uh joke is dangerous you know this is one I wanted to ask Dov uh you know again it's in Wikipedia so I don't know if it's true or not you know but I wanted to ask I'll share it with you right now you know um the incident in Subway he's Subway security as you can see um

uh that you uh for the profiling, I'm sorry. You've got to explain because not everybody watches it. You've got to explain what you're showing. It says in Wikipedia, I don't know if it's true or not, that you advocated for the profiling of Muslim and Middle Eastern and South Asian background in the subways, and you encouraged the police to, and you hold a picture of somebody who's not the terrorist

and say, they look like this. This is what you should be looking at. Is that true? Yes, absolutely. But let me give you the context. We're going back many years ago when terrorist acts were happening. We're here in New York. If you remember many years ago, because of the concern about terrorism, the police, when you entered the train station, they looked at every seventh person or every 10th person, which made no sense, whatever it was, if it was a 99 year old person, they would check that person. If the person before them was carrying a bag, and God knows what was in it. You know, they wouldn't check that person. That was what was going on here in New York. What I was proposing was that among the many things that the authority, since almost every act of terrorism at that particular time, that we need to look at

the perpetrators. Who are the people who were carrying out acts of terrorism? Now, if they're Hasidic people from the Jewish community, we got to be tough on them. We got to be after them. But we got to look at the people who are committing acts of terrorism on a regular basis. And in this case, the facts were that many of them were people of, you know, Middle Eastern background, certain age, etc, etc. So what I said was was that among the many things that they should look at, not the only thing, of course not, but among the many things, by the way, it was called terrorist profiling. And I totally support that. And by the way, little secret,

that's exactly what the FBI and what the authorities do. Otherwise they'd be out of their freaking minds. I mean, what do you, if those that are committing terrorists come from, look a certain way and they come from a certain place, why would you go looking at people from Norway? Yeah, so in my opinion, I just wanna say two things. There's a real world and there's the fake world.

In the real world, yes, this is what they should be doing. This is what I do when I go to the plane. I see other Muslims, Azerbaijanis, it's like, oh, shit. You know, it's true. You know, this is the real world. But right now, we're in a fake world where everything is counting. You get in trouble for anything you say and you have to be judgment. So if you're going to say this is based on a situation,

the joke was also based on a situation that had happened in Israel that we don't know about. Again, the facts were not correct. And you're giving way too much credit to the people writing this material. No, no, that's what I said in the beginning. That they are so sophisticated that this is what, you know, this is what they thought. And they wanted to get the message across. Let me just say this, that, you know, Jackie Mason, I went to all of his Broadway shows. I mean, one of the

groups he made more fun of than almost anyone else were Jews. Okay. Don Rickles was famous and made you laugh all the time, making fun of a lot of people, including Jews. Yes. Never did I object. Never did I have a problem. By the way, even if it's sort of you know i i felt what he was saying and i said yeah that's true you know why do you have to say it i never objected it was never an issue and and to add to the point let it finish let it finish happen yeah in in again in this particular case let's the the idea you know can I say this to you? Treat the Jews no differently than you treat people in the gay community. Treat the Jews no differently than you would treat the black community. That's all I'm asking for. Are you sensitive about other communities?

And you would never do that and never play that game on Saturday Night Live? Just treat us the freaking same way. That's all I'm asking. Just treat, you know, by the way, I'm not overly sensitive, trust me. I want to laugh and I can laugh at myself. Can I ask this? I know I said let him finish and I'm interrupting him. Can I just interrupt with him?

This is the thing. I would, you know, and I meant to say this before. I'm sure people listening at home, if they're still listening, are screaming at the radio, but he left out about the Geneva Conventions and what the Geneva Convention says, that an occupied power still has responsibilities. And without getting into that argument,

I've read about it. There seems to me that there is something here that reasonable minds could differ about what um the right thing for israel to do would be uh in this situation i i i would think that um virtually no nation on earth would put its own citizens uh behind or you know wait while in this scenario but just because no nation would do it doesn't mean that it wouldn't be the right thing to do. Maybe no nation is capable of doing something so difficult.

I think all of this is because of... Something correct, yet so difficult. But having said that, reasonable minds could differ on that. I could make the argument. And if reasonable minds can differ, then it can't be off limits to make a joke, which expresses the opinion of the other side of that thing, which is, you know what? You guys should be giving these shots to the Arabs. So it's this, I mean, as I'm thinking out loud here, it's really tough because the joke hurts.

And because I don't want people to think that about my people. You know, I... And because there are such substantial facts out there. You're so underreported.

So underreported. I think Doug will agree with me. It's not just Michael Che's joke. If the New York Times, if the Washington Post, if everybody had reported this properly, if it was well-known, just among well-informed people, forget about that actually Oslo said this and whatever it is. The closest the New York Times came to saying it was, they said, Israel says Oslo, blah, blah, as opposed to the New York Times certainly had the resources to print what Oslo said.

You know, they put it in the mouth of Israel as if it might not be true. But you're picking and choosing. No, no, but I'm saying, I'm just trying to put the emotion on the table here. In the context of looking to the left or looking to the right and not seeing one source just giving a fair accounting of the Israeli position here, where everybody's flying blind, and then on top of that, you put this joke, it feels different. If it was commonly known, if all the facts were commonly known, and people were kind of grappling with the facts and Che made that joke, I'm going to say it would go down quite differently. And so you can't separate it out to me. It's one context. Just a couple of points, if I may, since I don't think I've said anything. First of all, Perry, I think if Larry David had made the joke that Michael Che made, there'd be similar outcry.

Might even be more outcry because people expect larry david to know better and to know the the context better um certainly no no jews are sparing bernie sanders because he's jewish they come after him just as hard for everything he says that they don't like i don't believe that larry david if larry david made a joke about the holocaust and nobody complained it was i didn't i don't know the joke, but it was Seth Rogen. Seth Rogen made some comments a couple months ago and everybody went crazy on him. A Jewish comedian would have been pilloried

maybe more, but certainly not much less than Michael Che. So I want to make that point. But I want to use Dov's logic, which is what I agree with is like, why don't you treat it the same with everybody, just with Jews, with black, with Muslims?

So there was jokes doing that. And that's why I always take- But I don't think Dov is saying that there's no such thing as a joke about black people. He wouldn't- No, no, I know. I'm saying, I'm using the logic. I didn't say he said that.

I'm saying, which I agree with. But I tell you from my experience after 9-11, of course there was hundreds of millions of jokes about Muslims all over. And first of all, it's based on true life. And second of all, from my experience, it actually made things easier for Muslims, believe it or not. Like people were just getting to laugh about situation and understand and feel bad and understand that not everybody is the same by doing that joke you know i'm saying when you say everyone is serious then you understand you challenge you think it's like not everybody really is serious that's the joke you know let me give let me give an example of a joke that i thought was okay it's similar but dave chappelle in ohio

he was introducing mo amr who's a palest comedian. And he says, I want to introduce to you Mo Amr. He's a Palestinian. And if you don't know what a Palestinian is, he's an anti-Semite who kind of has a point. Now, you see how Dov laughed there. Can I tell you, you know, that doesn't really do anything for me. I got to tell you. But I want to mention something. But it was funny that that made me laugh.

It makes me laugh. Now, now I can't, I, we can examine it and try to figure out why one, one goes down. Okay. And the other one doesn't. The joke, the point is still very similar, right? Yeah. But let me point out the context. Jay's joke made me laugh. Okay. Well, I know that parallel. Go ahead.

Let me, you know, the context is very important. The times we live in right now, that's extremely relevant. We are living in a period now of unprecedented anti-Semitism. The FBI, the ADL, look at the

numbers. Look what's going on in this country. Coming from the right and coming from the left. If we live here in New York, most of the attacks that happened in the streets of New York where Jews were being physically assaulted because they were Jews, no other reason, did not come from the right. It came from the black community. Young black people who just physically assaulted Jews. I mean, how do I know that? Video surveillance is wonderful. You just look at the video surveillance. I don't blame the black community, but that is the reality. We live in a period now where there have been shootings at synagogues, murder at synagogues, Jews being assaulted, swastikas uh the numbers speak for themselves so you have an atmosphere the anti-israel stuff that's going on the bds movement israel being singled out you know israel is the only country that violates civil rights did anybody ever hear of russia china and god knows how many other countries well they gave up they gave up It's the freaking hypocrisy. They gave up. It's the lie. They gave up following the numbers there.

Listen, I agree that all of these things are horrible. You've got to take that into consideration. I agree all of these things are horrific and horrible, and I am totally on board with that. I really wonder, though, it's like, so what? So then you can't make jokes about any of this stuff exactly no if there's something that's no there's a situation no there are joe listen i think all of us would agree all of us let's forget about the saturday night line i think all of us would agree

you know there's a comedian in france i don't remember his name. You don't know. Yes, you got it. He may be very funny. Guess what? He's banned in France. He's been arrested for some of the things that he's done, which are dangerous. That's France. What did he do? Not, you know, we're talking about a democracy. So there are times, you know, comedy times you know comedy you know is beautiful and and i would not want to do anything to restrict you know you can't say this you can't say that but you got to be smart the people writing this stuff you know they by the way they do have lines that they don't cross trust me they know exactly what lines not to cross when it it comes to Israel, when it comes to the Jewish people, you know, you know, after all, I listen, guys, you know, we control everything.

You know that, right? We control the banks, we control the media. You know, we got all the power in the world, right? Isn't that true? We're not supposed to tell anybody what's the matter with you shout out to him that was a joke by the way I know so listen so this is where I'm getting uncomfortable because yes this guy in France I wish I could remember the stuff he said

but he made some like you know over the top just spewing but it was funny now this is quite different made some like, you know, over the top, just spewing. But it was funny. It was funny. Spewing hate. Now, now this is, this is quite different from what NBC did because NBC was making a, at worst, I would say the, the point of the joke was, was, was just a political point that Israel is not behaving properly with, with this vaccine.

We can also overlay onto it all the things that we feel about in history, whatever it is, but you're giving NBC way too much credit if you think they have all that at their fingertips. Let me put it another way. If all that stuff didn't exist, they could have still made that same joke because it's, you know, the, it's the underdog is it, you have to really embrace rationalism to overcome the natural human urge to take the underdog side in a situation. It's very, very, very difficult to see the victim or the,

the sufferer and say, Oh no, you know, there's nothing wrong here. You know, this is the victim or the, the sufferer and say, well, no, you know, there's nothing wrong here. You know, this is the way, this is the, this is absolutely the way it should be. How about when the repercussions of that is antisemitism? How about when the repercussions of that are more attacks upon Jews? And that is not something that is real. By the way, the one thing we did not mention, we talked about NBC.

What about Nurses? That other show? That was horrible. Oh, how come? Can you tell them? Describe it first. I urge people to look at that. One of the other shows,

and again, I never heard of Nurses prior to this incident, but they had, you know, a young man, a Hasidic with we can't, you can't have the body part of a guy, of an Arab. What in God's name was that all about? NBC. My God. So, listen, people laughed. They thought it was cute. What the hell was cute? I had a part from anybody. I mean, I did.

Now, that thing was horrible. And that was much, much more difficult to understand how it could come about without an anti-Semitic soul. Watch the Miss Hitler beauty pageant. I'll watch it. Miss Hitler beauty pageant, Miss Israel won. I know, but okay. I'm going to leave it there. But I have a feeling when I see it,

I might not see it your way. But the NBC thing, there was no joke there. It was simply a gratuitous swipe. And I did some research on this, as I always do. I spent about an hour trying to find out Hasidic takes on transplants and whatever it is. And I could find absolutely nothing. Right. There isn't anything.

As a matter of fact, what I did find was an article of a Hasidic family that received a heart transplant, I think, from an Arab family and wrote a thank you letter

to the Arabs. And now he did say, the man said, he says, people questioned if there's an Arabic heart, does that mean Arabic blood?

And he said, he says, no, but our teaching is very, very clear that this is not case. And you can't break any rules. Can I take it from here? No.

So what I'm saying is that as opposed to the fact that the people on the West Bank are actually going without the vaccine and there actually is a real life tragedy unfolding, which people on weekend update after all would look to make a joke about in their way of making social commentary. This was not based on anything going on. This was a swipe

at a Hasidic community based on nothing that exists in the real world, simply to make them look bad as if, as if they would get a life-saving transplant and say, from a woman, this is so indefensible. I would guess with that NBC show, and I would also guess with SNL, I think there's a good likelihood the Jews wrote both. I don't know. Yeah, but I tell you one thing. I wouldn't be surprised at all.

I wouldn't be surprised either. I'll tell you something about transplant. I'm the expert here in transplant. You know, I made a study about all the, you know, because I tried... He had a heart transplant, by the way. He had a heart transplant. God bless America. He had a heart transplant. Go ahead.

So I made, you know, and I tried to advocate to it and all that. And when I studied, it actually, in all three major religions, you know, it really tells you to give if you can. It doesn't matter to who. It doesn't matter. So that's just a fact.

You know, I don't know why the show was based. I mean, I like the show. I didn't say I don't. But I don't know why. It's crazy. But the SNL joke, I think it's it's crazy but but the snl joke i think it's okay honestly when i came when i moved here the best thing about comedy the best thing about this country was free speech you can say whatever you want you don't have to worry about all these and these things are just getting

you know the more i live that the more it's just like it's getting canceled becoming more like the middle east you can say this you can say that you can say that. You have to do that. You have to consider that. You know, I don't know. We have to really... I really think, and Dov, I hope you think about this. I really think that the reaction that I had to the joke

and many of you have had to the joke is related to what I said before. It's just infuriating that there is this one-sided misperception of a fact which could be easily reported by the by the media and they don't and that that can't be an accident that is because it doesn't all the time and when and when you hear a joke like that in a mainstream show like SNL, you want to just take the TV and smash it because, because like I said, if, if people, if the facts were people's fingertips,

they probably might not even laugh at it. It wouldn't even be funny. The joke that was like, I don't get that joke. Like, what are they talking about? We know that, but they don't know. And it's, it's just proof of the whole package to make that joke innocently, as I think it was, knowing Michael Che, who I consider to be a dear friend, it just shows how uninformed

everybody is about the truth about what goes on. And it's very painful. Let me talk. First of all, this has been wonderful tonight, I have to tell you. It's been an absolute delight. You know, you set up my talking to Michael Che. Why not? You know, you know me, you see me, you hear me. I don't bite. I'm straightforward. I never accused Michael Che of anything. Never. I never did. Never, never. And I never would because, you know, that's just not me. But facilitate he and I talking about this.

I think that can only be a good thing. Well, I'll do. I know, Michael, he's not going to want to. As anybody in that situation, they want this to go away. That is not a criticism. But in the future, as COVID disappears, if you're amenable, I can try, can't promise, that maybe in a few months from now, we can all have coffee together. We can come to the Comedy Cellar.

Come to the Comedy Cellar under the radar and everybody sworn to secrecy and in good faith to speak and share with no gain political or otherwise to be had. Absolutely. I think he's and as part of the reason I can defend him, I've had long, two very, very long nights, five, six hours where we just talked about everything. No holds barred, baring our souls about every aspect of politics. I feel like I know him deeply and I wouldn't, I would just keep quiet. I wouldn't go on the record defending him like that. I didn't have to. I listen, I appreciate that.

It means a lot when you say what you're saying about him. And I listen, give me the same opportunity to be able to say, wow, this is a great guy. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I would love to make that happen. All right. We're at about an hour. Anybody want to, any last words on this? Well, again, I just, I just, you know, the question that I posed when this all began is, what about Lorne Michaels? Everybody's talking about Che, Che, Che, Che, Che. And the truth of the matter is, is I'm not even sure Che wrote the joke because he might not have had the nerve to write the joke. He knows who's in charge at

SNL. It's Lorne Michaels. And, you know, so it very well could have been a Jew. And maybe Michael Che was like, okay, well, if you want me to... And we don't know what went on. Lorne Michaels might have said, ooh, I think this is a good Jew for you to say, Michael. Look, at the end of the day,

at the end of the day, at the end of the day, we don't know, you know, if there was some sophisticated discussion and plot, let's do this and let's send a message. You know, I don't know. We don't know. We do know one thing. When the Conference of Presidents

of major American Jewish organizations and everyone else, including me, okay, feels the same way, maybe something to think about. And hopefully they will, you know, when we went to NBC Saturday night to protest, we went there to educate just as well, not to call them anti-Semites, never uttered that, never would do that. It was to educate to say, I think you guys made a mistake. Maybe you didn't mean to make a mistake. You probably didn't. But the repercussions,

the damage, because there are a lot of haters out there, and they don't like Jews. And when you tell them, you know Jews, they only care about themselves. They don't care about anybody else. It plays into that, and that is dangerous.

Is that going to be the standard for comedy? I wouldn't be the standard for comedy for any nationality, any religion, any race. You have to be careful when you make a joke. You always have to at least have one eye out for the possible repercussions, you know, during the height of Islamophobia, I would, you know, at least consider that before, before making an Arabs are terrorist joke. In fact, I don't think I've ever made an Arabs, but that's not probably not true. Not, not, not. So Dan, you know, just to, to, to, to,

to imagine yourself a Lorne Michaels shoes, let's presume for the sake of argument, Lorne Michaels didn't like the joke. It's a very typical situation for him to be in because uh if he if he uh wields his power to protect the jewish people from a joke he is putting himself in a um position with his cast and with his writers there that he does not want to be in, which is that, oh, you let all these other jokes go by and the one time you say something is about when you're Ox's board,

when it's about the Jews. And I've been in similar situations with the comedy seller. I don't like to intervene in anybody's joke, but I would give the most latitude to a joke about the Jews, no matter how much I didn't like it, rather than be seen as reacting first to the Jewish joke.

And I think Lorne Michaels, who needs, he's in a political position after all, every boss is, and he needs the credibility with a cast that is based, I mean, that's their brand, is iconoclastic, irreverent humor. Very difficult for him to make a stand on this joke. I think he would probably just decide to grin and bear it and keep his credibility. So you can say that's wrong of him, but it's just not so easy as it seems. You think, oh, the Jewish guy, he allowed it. No, I think actually the non-Jewish head of SNO would have had an easier time stopping that's why maybe we've accomplished what we needed to accomplish and that is to send

a message and not you can again please don't get me wrong make fun of jews of blacks of latinos of gays of transgender that's okay i don't have a problem but sometimes you are crossing the line and that's not cool and you should be aware of that i don't have a problem. But sometimes you are crossing the line and that's not cool. And you should be aware of that. I don't want any comedian to feel restricted, but they're intelligent. They know exactly what they're doing. But so where's the line then?

Like, where is the line? Look, I think each person has to make that decision when they're writing a comedy. Look, as I said earlier, we live in a time today where things that were done 10 years ago, five years ago, 20 years ago, nobody would do today. There are things that were said, and I never had a problem with any of it, but there were things that were said years ago that no comedian would say today if they want to survive. Unfortunately, that's the new reality. Look, Cariel, the argument, where is the line, is an important argument. It's

also a very complicated argument in many, where's the line on abortion? Where's the line on pornography? You can show a three-year-old baby in a diaper commercial, a six-year-old, I'm sorry, three-month-old, six-month-old naked, and all of a sudden you say, wait a second, that seven-year-old naked child on the commercial, I don't think that's appropriate. What do you mean that's not appropriate? Where's the line? You were okay with the infant.

You have to draw lines somehow, or there are lines. Maybe you only know them once they're crossed, but they're very, you understand what i'm saying it's not enough just people people will say where's the line as if they say that's it case closed but you know you can't tell me where the line is therefore everything goes i just think it's us it's a where you think the line is then no but i think it's a slippery slope. Like, especially when, you know, Dove said, oh, well, you know, you're saying Michael Che's a great guy. Maybe then, you know, that makes it okay.

If people know that- It makes it okay, but it's, I don't know that he was saying it makes it okay. No, that's not what I meant at all. I, look, like I said, Michael Che, I don't know how Saturday Night Live works. I mean, do the comedians write their own joke? Of course, there are God knows how many people who work all week to prepare jokes.

They have so many to pick from, and they choose only certain ones to actually put on. So I doubt Michael Che wrote this. I truly do someone did and again i think the discussion the the debate everything that has happened i think it's healthy nothing wrong with being a little more careful nothing wrong just just said one thing is uh when you talk about where's the line that's a topic palestinian topic Palestinian and Israelis have been trying to figure out for a long time. Nobody's been figuring out really where the line is. I would say that they wanted to make a pointed joke about the vaccine situation, which I think is absolutely okay for them to do.

And it ended up being harsh. That's just the way it is. Right, right. By the way, Dov, we're done. Go ahead, Dan, go ahead. Dov, I follow you on Clubhouse. I don't know if you're active on it or not. Well, I might.

The people I work with in Americans Against Antisemitism. And by the way, anyone who wants to see our work, just go on AmericansAA.org. See the things we've been doing. You know, we're proud. We're strong. We try to stand up and we don't care where the hate is coming from. Republican, Democrat, we speak out, period. So going, we're going to set up our own room and do some stuff. Maybe one of the subjects is going to be exactly what we're discussing tonight.

I think this discussion tonight was an extremely healthy one and, and very important. And I personally want to get it out to a wide, wide audience. Okay. You should, you should go on club. I know,

but you have, you don't have an iPhone. Do you know him? You have the, I have an Okay. You should go on Clubhouse. No, but you don't have an iPhone. Do you know him? I have an iPad. Yes, I do. He asked me, you can do a Clubhouse on iPad. I was invited, but like he says, I'm so busy all day with my kids, I can barely have time for the podcast. Well, you go on it because it's –

think of all the time you're saving not yelling at comics at the comedy cell. Dan, are you getting paid for a clubhouse or something you've been promoting this shit the whole time no i'm in clubhouse i mean my you know i think clubhouse is going to rule the world i think it's going to be the biggest i think it's going to eclipse facebook and instagram and i'd love to have some stock in it but it's private. It's amazing. It's amazing. And, and I am going to, you know, again, play, be involved on some level. But I think no one would like it. You can set up your own room and have like, just, you know,

be the private chats or public chats. Yeah. No question about it. All right. I think, I think that's, that's done. Dolph, it was a pleasure to meet you. I've been following you for many years And it's a pleasure To meet you I would I would very much like

With Michael Or without him I'd like to meet you Sometime in the comedy cellar And get to know Get to know each other I I gotta tell you

That my kids When they heard I was gonna be on With the comedy cellar They were excited Because they've been To the comedy cellar And they were just like

Wow dad I don't believe it. Well, Perry, I'll give him my phone number and email address, please. So next week. Please do. And I want to get a copy of the show. Oh, sure.

We'll get it distributed to a lot of people. Sure, no problem. All right. So long, everybody. Good night. Be safe. Take care. Be safe.

It was a pleasure with everybody and have a great Shabbos, great weekend and great everything. Good Shabbos, bye bye Shabbos wow that was amazing. So what was this? I think I was, oh I'm thinking of the comedy club

I don't know what I'm thinking. This was amazing who's that?