The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Bonus Episode: Free Will, Originality in Comedy and The Riyadh Comedy Festival

Episode Date: October 31, 2025

While Noam is away, Dan Naturman and Periel Aschenbrand discuss free will (do we have it?), The Riyadh Comedy Festival, originality in comedy, trans girls and how Jewish is too Jewish when it comes to comedy shows.

This is live from the table, the official podcast of the World Famous Comedy Seller, available wherever you get your podcasts, and available in particular on YouTube, which I think is the preferred way that people consume the podcast. This is Dan Natterman. Noam is not here. Noam is in Italy, or he's on his way back from Italy. I'm here with Periel. We're just doing a two-person show today.

So it's something a little bit different. We've done this before, but it's not what we normally do. and we have some topics that we're going to explore. Once again, I find myself with a cruise coming up, Periel. I got a cruise. Where are you going? I hope not to Jamaica or Cuba. Is that where the hurricanes are?

Yes. No, I don't know where we're going, actually. I don't really care because I don't really usually get off the ship. But we're going to the Caribbean. Okay. So maybe it'll get canceled and they'll pay me. That would be the best possible outcome. Is that what would happen if they'd?

Cancel they pay you? I think so. That's never happened before, so I don't know. That would be a wonderful surprise. Is that like your best case scenario? Oh, it's the best case scenario. Yeah, it's the best case scenario. For everything?

Like for any? For any, yeah, generally. For most gigs, yes. I would just prefer. Gilbert Godfrey once remarked that that was his fantasy before every gig. The owner would say there was, a fire. Here's your check. And I'm sort of in accord with that, you know, other than the comedy seller, you know, and gigs around town. Okay. Yeah, unfortunately, you know, I don't,

I don't love stand-up. As I've mentioned before, but here I am. Well, I'd say that you must derive a little bit of pleasure. I like the part where you say, thank you everybody. And then, and then you've done a good job, ideally, and then you get to kind of bask in that afterglow. But do you get to like... That's what I prefer. But is there some point during the set where you're like, this is going well, you're enjoying your people are laughing. You can tell the...

If a new joke does well, then that's satisfying. If a joke that does well always does well and it's a thousandth time that it's done well, it doesn't... It's hard to derive any pleasure out of that because I already know the joke works. And what about... So it's when a new joke works. Yes, that... is that is uh you know that can be a pleasurable experience and how often do you try new

as often as i can i mean i come up with a new joke and you know it's got to have it's got to cross a certain threshold of probably funny okay in other words there are jokes and i'm like no that's never going to work and i won't try it's jokes they have to cross a certain threshold you know 50% chance whatever it is well what's that threshold do you make that up in your head i think it might work. But you yourself, it's not like you're running. It's got to cross, it's got to have two criteria. It's got to be a joke that I think will work and it's got to be a joke that I think is worthy of my telling. It can't, you know, it can't just be something easy or that I think will work because some jokes just work because I don't know, you say a funny word. You know,

it never ceases to amaze me how easy it is to make an audience laugh when all your doing is simply saying the truth and nothing more. It's unadorned. And though that could be good enough, and you might say that is good enough, I always need to try to come up with something clever to cap it off. Like, the example that I give, and I've mentioned on the show is my joke about when Trump was running in 2016 and everybody was saying, if Trump gets elected, I'm going to move to Canada. And then Trump got elected and they're like, I'm moving to Canada. And it gets big last and it's not even it's not there's no joke there it's just what happened but you tell it but i but i i guess i do it in a fun in a funny way whatever but um but i but i feel the need to go

one step further and say you know a lot of americans are trying to get their green cars but i don't know any americ sorry a lot of canadians are trying to get their green cars but i don't know any americans trying to get their maple pass or whatever they call uh-huh because i feel the need to not just rest on the... I can't fucking move to Canada apart. You also have a joke that you don't tell that we've had this conversation before. About the meditation?

Yeah. It's the same thing. Yeah, I tell it, but I'll tell it on a cruise ship. You know, that's a little bit different because you have to bring something to it, but it's still very basic. It's still not a joke that I... You're not proud of.

I'm not proud of it. And that's where I talk about how, you know, you have meditation apps, and they'll have a voice from, you know, England. Well, you know, open your... you know, with an English accent, or they'll have an Indian voice. Imagine, you know, you're in the field with it.

But, you know, you wouldn't hear a New Yorker. Like, hey, close your freaking eyes. You know, it's easy. I've seen, I've heard different variations of that joke over the years where the New York accent is inappropriate. For this context or that, like, you wouldn't want to hear your doctor saying, hey, hey, he's doing, you know. Yeah.

It's just, I've heard that in so many contexts. So, no. It's not unique enough. So, though I think, though, it's not unique enough. So though it passes this threshold of, the audience will laugh. Yeah. It doesn't pass that second criteria.

But anyway, speaking of jokes... Wait, wait, wait. So are there... Will you run them by people? Jokes, no. I run it by the audience. That's it. It's an internal...

You never call... No, because what's the point? Because they'll give me their opinion as one person's opinion. They might not like it and then that'll just psych me out and I won't do it. Or they might like it, but that's... Which is, I guess, good, but that doesn't mean. mean the audience is going to like it or they might pretend to like it. I can't take, I don't know, I can't trust people because if they're your friend,

they don't want to say, eh. Well, I don't know. I mean, you have friends who are like, even if they laugh and then, but is it a real laugh? You know, wait a second, but you have friends who are like really good comments. You know, I wouldn't, but yes, but when you ask somebody, is this funny, like I personally would never say that's not funny because I really don't know. Okay. I don't know what the audience is going to.

going to laugh at. So it's for me to say, eh, I don't know, you know. Even if it's a friend that wants an honest opinion, my honest opinion is, I don't fucking know. I do not know. You have to try it out in front of the audience. There's another joke I'm telling recently that sometimes gets a big

laugh. It's also just it's just a thought that a million people have probably had where Elon Musk is obsessed with Mars. So he's always saying we've got to go to Mars. We need to become multi-planetary. We have to colonize Mars because Earth might become uninhabitable.

And I say, you mean uninhabitable like Mars? And that's all I say. And people laugh. And it seems like a fairly easy thought. Like Mars is already uninhabitable. You know, what kind of plan B is that? So that's not enough. So I try to add to it by saying that.

And I've added to it. I'm not getting a huge laugh with it, but I'll say, that's the worst plan B since that time. that to myself. If comedy doesn't work out, I'll just be a fitness model. Or sometimes I say I'll just strip. But anyway, you're not laughing. But the audience typically does. But they don't laugh uproariously. But the point is, I feel the need to not just say a true something that's true if there's no actual joke or punchline or anything else. But anyway, I don't know how we got on this topic. Well, it's interesting. We got on this topic because I was asking you questions. You were asking me about trying out new jokes.

Yeah. So, right. Did you try any new jokes at the other night? The other night? I think I did the joke about, it's fairly new. Like, I've been working on it for a while trying to get it right, where, like, parents on social media will tell, oh, I'm so proud of this amazing, this amazing, intelligent, brilliant, human who amazes us every day with his, you know,

and then in person, you're like, Well, how should you get, you know, fingers crossed, the new medication is working. That's funny. So, you know, that's, yeah, you know, I haven't done it enough times to say that for sure it's a keeper. Uh-huh.

It's worked twice. Usually I need three or four times for me to be confident that it's something that's going to, you know, and then once I'm confident, then it usually starts to work even better. That's interesting. It takes me like three or four times. To get confident.

To get confident. And then once the confidence arises, then it usually adds another level to it. There's some jokes that work for some audiences and don't work for other audiences. Well, that's certainly true. I mean, you know, jokes that don't work at the cellar but seem to work at other places. Well, it's some things that, like, you have, it's very cultural, right? Like jokes. Not just that it's cultural.

It's just certain jokes. I don't know what it is about certain rooms, certain clubs. Well, I mean, something like you'd have to be like intimately acquainted with like the New York subway system. That's like a joke you can't tell in like Iowa, right? What joke are you talking? Just in general. Yes, yes. But my jokes typically aren't that.

I have jokes that everybody can understand, but for some reason don't work as well here and work elsewhere or they don't work as well elsewhere and they work here. And I can't figure it out. But anyway, yeah. Do you think that your jokes would have worked at the Riyadh comedy? festival? Probably many of them would. You know, not my jokes about Israel, because they tend not to be bashing Israel,

which is probably what they would want. But I don't have many jokes about Israel. But, you know, my jokes tend to work overseas, so I would imagine they would work there. But I guess that brings us to three. I was trying to. You know, I know. Like a smooth transition.

Yeah, yeah, it was a smooth transition. I made it a little rougher than it needed to be. Yeah, I mean, as far as the controversy, controversy is concerned, I'd have done it. You would have done it. But I need the money, so it's different from people that already have, that already make millions of dollars a year to make a few more million or hundreds of thousands. So, I'm in a situation where nobody would, nobody would, you know, I don't think be upset with me if I did it, but people that already are rich or already make millions a year. And so did they need to do, you know, I don't know. I prefer not to judge people, you know.

I mean, people work in China and China has human rights violations. People work all over the place. So, you know, then there was two issues. One issue was, well, should you work, it was sponsored by the Saudi government. So the issue was, should you work for a government that's repressive? It's one thing to do a show for the people, if the people are paying for it. It's another show when the government is paying you, and the government is a repressive regime. And the second argument is, well, the government, apparently there was a like a contract you had a sign that said,

you're not going to talk about this, you're not going to talk about that, you're not going to make fun of the Saudi government, you're not going to talk about religion, whatever, that they had to sign that. So a separate accusation is, well, you guys are such free speech advocates, and yet you sign a contract saying you're not allowed to say this, this, this, and this. Okay. So is that hypocritical? So, I mean, I don't know. You know, well, there's two questions.

Would I have done it and what I have done it knowing the backlash? Well, the second question is easy. Absolutely not. I mean, if I were in their position, people with a lot of money already, being offered a lot of money, would I have done it? Would I have done it knowing the backlash? Of course not. And I suspect that's true for a lot of people that did it. I don't think they expected the backlash.

I don't think if they knew the backlash, many of the people that did it would not have done it. Well, I mean, that's sort of cowardly, isn't it? Well, it's logic. Why would you want backlash? Well, I mean, I don't think that anybody, I don't think that for the most part, you know, when you get, when, when, when, there's quote unquote backlash or consequences, you're not upset that you did it. You're just upset that you got in trouble for doing it. The point is, is if they knew that there was going to be a backlash, would they have done it?

And I think for a lot of people, the answer is no. I don't know. I don't think that they anticipated the backlash. I think that the- They figured it's just a gig and we'll do it and nobody will complain. I don't know. I think that, you know, there's, I mean, I hate to bring everything back to Israel and anti-Semitism, but, you know, there are so many people in the arts who are, you know,

calling to boycott Israel because of this or that. And half of these people would, in one second, go perform for a regime in Saudi Arabia or any place out. I suppose, but that's not we're discussing. Well, no, but it's part of it. Like, I think it's just bullshit. Like, the people who are complaining about the people who went to Saudi, right? Right? Like, what are they complaining about? I told you, they're complaining about two things. Number one, how can you be for freedom of speech when you had to sign a contract?

Okay, but you do that all the time. You can't say this that and the other thing. But you do that when you take corporate gigs, too. But a lot of these people don't do corporate gigs. I mean, I don't think Chappelle's doing corporate gigs. I don't think Bill Burr is doing corporate gigs. You know, so they're doing gigs where they can say whatever the hell they want. Okay. When you go. I assume. I haven't read their contract.

When you go on a nightly. talk show or at least like what the formats are and you're going to do five minutes on Fallon but you're not doing yeah I mean those guys aren't doing stand up on talk shows either but well yes they're they're restricted in what they can say so so I see your point like but but by and large these people do shows where they can say whatever the hell they want when they're doing their own show and in their and they're the one who and they don't do corporates typically okay at that level maybe But, like, even if you go do a show for, like, Jennifer Lopez, right?

Like, there are certain things that she's probably going to ask you not to make fun of. You mean her talk show? Does she have a talk show? No, I just meant, like, if you did, like, a private gig for her. Like, I don't know. I think that there's usually, maybe this is an extreme version of it. But it's one thing not to be able to say the F word. It's another thing to say you can't make fun of religion.

You can't make fun of a government, which is clearly repressive. if your brand is, you know, that's the argument. Well, what do you think about that? You know, I don't, I don't, look, it's a money grab, but I mean, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I'm not overly hostile to money grabs. Even if you've already have money, you know, it's, I hesitate to judge again because. Yeah, I think it's. First of all, I obviously, because I'm not in a position to do, you know, to do an arena, but yeah, I do corporates. If you were offered.

I do cruises and there are several restrictions. I can't, not just restrictions about what I can say, but about what I can do. Okay. You know, I can't have sex with the other passengers. Well, see, there you go. But there's also restrictions on what you can say, right? There's one cruise line that says you cannot talk to anybody under 18 that's unaccompanied by an adult. So if like a little kid in the elevator says, hey, you were funny.

theoretically, I'm not allowed to say thank you, according to the contract. But there's also a bunch of stuff that you can't say. Yes, there's a bunch of stuff I can't say, I can't say Princess, you know, I can't make fun of Carnival Cruises, for example. So that's a, what's the, what's the difference? But I'm not the free speech guy and I'm not going to Saudi Arabia. I suppose Carnival Cruises doesn't also, like, kill women for. Well, I don't know what they do. I mean, there was a woman that went missing on one of the ships.

You probably can't make a joke about that. That was on Netflix. There was a show, like, yeah, I doubt you can make fun of that. Like, if you did that, probably they wouldn't hire you again. Right. But I'm not Mr. Free Speech. Well, I mean, I think comics in general. But, you know, I'm not.

So. Let me ask you this. If you were offered $25 million and you knew the backlash, you wouldn't take it? Of course I would. I told you right up front I would take it. You said if you knew the backlash, you would. I said if I knew the backlash and I were in a position to not, if I was making millions a year anyway. I said I wouldn't do it.

How? I mean... But in the position I'm in now, I want that 25 meg. Do you think that it's distasteful to count other people's money? I don't know. Like, who am I to say? I don't know. If it would, look, there's a certain threshold, which I would be upset, you know.

I mean, if it were really, like, if they were performing for Osama bin Laden had a show, you know, back when he was around. And then he was offering huge sums of money. Well, then I would say, you know, for anybody, even somebody that needed the money. But at a certain level, yes, I would say that's distasteful. Okay. But Saudi Arabia, I mean, I'm not, I'm not outraged by it. Why?

They're horrible, like what the government does over there. It's like the worst thing ever. But we're also allies with Saudi Arabia. People go to Saudi Arabia. You know, I have a friend of my brother-in-law is, you know, his father, went, he was a dentist and he went there to do a dental lecture and the government probably had some say

in that. I didn't think anything of it. I mean, you know, there's also the argument to be made that, well, if we want to bring them into the 21st century, like Jessica Kurson went and talked about being gay.

I think it's very brave. So you could say, well, yeah, she made a lot of, yeah, the government's repressive, but she went there and maybe she was a factor for change. Maybe she was an agent for change over there. I don't know.

you know, you could make that argument. And if I were her, I'd make that argument, whether I believed it or not, because she got some back, she got a lot of backlash. Well, I think that people really... And she gave in, and I don't think she should have. She should have said, look, I went there. I talked about being gay. I, you know, I think I was a catalyst for change.

I agree. I think that what she did was very brave. And I think that people really like to judge and say, you shouldn't do this and you shouldn't do that. You were saying that Saturday was horrible, so now where do you stand on comics going to perform a Saturday? I think that it's none of my business and people should do what they want to do. No, because there are things that are your business. At a certain point, it would be your business.

So it's not that it's not your business is that you're not outraged by it. I'm saying where is the line? I don't know. I'm saying it's more complicated than just to be like, this is a terrible regime, which it is. and they do horrible things, which they do, to then say, well, it's, you know, a crime that any of you guys want to perform there. Like, I think it's really easy to sit there and say that.

And I also think, like, just because you have money doesn't mean that you're not allowed to take more money. And I always think that, but if you're doing something, no, it doesn't mean that. But if it's something that's truly questionable, it's a fact. There are a lot of things that are questionable. And at some point, it's questionable enough that I would say, hey that's not that's not right okay now so the question is where is that point right it's not like

i it's not like i would never judge and it's never my business like i said if they did a show at osama bin laden's palace you and i wouldn't say it's none of our business we'd say no that's no that's not right so so it's not that we you know so like doing a show so the question is is it's not bad enough for me to say hey that you shouldn't do that it's some murky area that i just don't know and so you know we know how terrible the regime there is though right i guess i don't know i mean are they steve can you pull up some stats i don't we don't need i want to see i want to see why not because i don't because i is that the current regime and and if we're not going to analyze those stats if we're just going to take some out of context stats

suffice to say yeah it's it's a repressive regime regime so is china and people work there and whether they work for the government of china i don't know but Okay. And what about like going to perform for like the leaders of Hamas in a tunnel? Well, I would object to that. Yeah. You know, I would object to that. But I'm sure a lot of people, a lot of our colleagues, many of whom have gone nuts, would be in favor of that.

Right. So anyway. So that's my, my hedged opinion on the Riyadh Comedy Festival. I'm sorry I couldn't take it more. I can only tell you what my gut reaction was when I first heard about it. Oh, okay, that's interesting. Like not outrage. It was only after people, Mark Marin, in particular, and David Cross said, hey, you shouldn't do that,

that I started to think, well, all right, let me think about that. But I didn't even thought about it. I wasn't giving it a second thought. Were David Cross and Marin? They were both very against it. I know, but were they invited and they turned it down? I don't know that. I don't know if they were.

My guess is they weren't. It's hard to believe that this out. Well, maybe Marin. I don't know. But, I mean, I would think that they would know that those aren't the people to ask. But, you know, but maybe not. Yeah, maybe not. I don't know.

We have, there's a journalist who wrote an interesting piece about this for The Atlantic. And what are that journalist? Well, who is a journalist? Her name is Helen Lily. I believe. She might be joining us on the show in a couple of weeks to discuss it. Oh, okay. So we'll get to talk about

it more with her. Are you getting a... No, I just have a time. I have to keep track of time. I can't do it because we usually have a clock. You're right, we do. We do. I don't see the clock. So what did she say about it? Well, we'll talk about... Well, give me the summary.

That... Well, if you don't have it handy, you don't have it handy. Yeah, I don't. I don't have it handy. All right. Let's talk. Where are you going? I have to be, I'm having a belated birthday dinner that friends of mine are taking me too,

so I have to leave at 6, 6.10 really at the latest. Well, you'll be out of here well before then. We'll make sure you're out of here at 6 o'clock. Okay. And there's a clock for you. 526. Where are you going for your... They're cooking me in their apartment.

It's a home home that's very nice I'll probably bring ice cream I'm not obligated to because it's my birthday dinner, but how many people it's just just them and me oh okay yeah what do you know what they're cooking I have no idea no idea yeah so it was my birthday as you know last week yeah they just keep coming I mean they just how was it for you it was oh it's when it gets it was a fine but when it gets towards 60s It's going to be, you know, 59 and then 60 itself, that's going to be a fucking baseball bat to the fucking back of the head. There's no way around it. No way around it, you don't think? There's no way around it. You don't think that there's... I mean, 50 was like, uh, eh, eh.

But I got you, 50 was like you get into, like, you know, a pool that's like 75 degrees, and you're like, eh, yeah, yeah. And then after a minute, you're like, oh, this is okay. So that was 50. 60 might be, it's like a 40 degree pool where the whole time you got hypothermia. I don't know. I haven't been there yet. I mean, Noam's not, Noam doesn't love it.

Noem doesn't love anything. You know, I mean, and I've read, and I've read numerous articles that say after 60, you don't, you're kind of cool with it, you don't fear death anymore as much. Noam has not confirmed that. Yeah. He's the only person on the other side of 60 I've talked to about it. And he says that's not true for him, but I have read numerous articles that say for some reason, your brain just at 60, roughly 60, 61, just all of a sudden you're like, eh.

And, of course, you do see older people that, it was an episode of Seinfeld. It was where George was saying that this old guy, like, how do you live? How do you live? You're going to die at any time. And the guy's like, I just enjoy every day. Uh-huh. And I think that's how people get when they get to that age. I don't know what the brain. But I've long since abandoned the idea that I'm in any control of what,

my brain does. So if my brain decides that I don't fear death anymore, well, that's what's going to happen? But that's an insane position to take. What's insane? That you have no control. Well, it might be insane, but it's perfectly true. It's not true. I learned that years ago when I was when I both barricaded myself in a room after smoking too much pot because I thought the cops were coming. Okay. And it was then I knew that my, well, the point is is your brain is a chemical soup. Okay. First of all, getting paranoid because you've smoked too much pot. That just shows you that you're not in control of your thoughts. If you're if you've smoked too much, like that's... Yeah, but what's the difference whether you're

smoking or whether you're not smoking? It's the chemicals in your head that decide what you're thinking and what... Because there are things that you can do. No. You can, you can meditate. Yes. But even then... Like there's so much science. You're such a science guy. You're so into all this science. There's so much science behind how meditation changes. But meditation changes the biology of your brain. Yeah. But the point is, it's like, the point is,

it's like, I can stop my heart from beating, but basically my heart is an involuntary muscle. Your brain is not the same as your heart. Oh, it certainly is. Like, I can make my heart beats. If I exercise, my heart will beat slower because I'm more fit. So yes, in that sense, I can control my heartbeat. or if I think bad thoughts and scary thoughts and stressful thoughts,

my heartbeat can speed up. So, yes, in that sense, I can speed up my heartbeat. But essentially, my heart is an involuntary muscle. Well, your brain is the same way. Okay, but you think you're in control. You are no control. No, no, I'm not saying that you're in control. I'm saying that there are things that you can mitigate.

You can mitigate. At the end of the day, it's biology, yes. But at the end of the day, it's biology. If you're having a panic attack, if you're having a panic attack. There are certain steps you can take. And there are certain, I mean, I just read a whole thing on, like. Right. There's certain things, there's certain steps you can take.

But generally speaking, your overall mood, your overall way of seeing the world, I think, is largely locked in. And so even though I can't imagine not fearing death, if my brain decides one day that I don't fear it, then I won't fear it. I totally disagree with you. Well, you can disagree all you want. And the only reason you're disagreeing is because your brain is telling you to disagree. You're locked in to disagree. Do you know that Anais Ninn quote? No.

We see the world not as it is, but as we are. You're Ninn's an idiot. No, she's not. I don't know anything about Anais Ninn. Well, she was, well, you know that, I mean, she's, I think it's fair to say that, like, she's... I don't believe in free will is where I'm going. At all? No, not at all.

I think it's a ridiculous idea. Really? Why? Because you have no control? No, because everything is either, it's our environment or our biology, and we don't, I mean, it's like, it's wired in. We don't, you know, no, I don't believe in free will. I try not to think about it. It's a fairly potent illusion that we have it. And I'm satisfied.

I think the illusion is satisfactory, and I'm good with the illusion, but I don't truly believe it. I believe we lived the life that we were meant. We could have, if you were born Jeffrey Dahmer, and if you were born with his brain, in his family, you would have been killing and eating men. Well, how come? If you were born Adolf Hitler, you know, you would have done with his brain in 1889 in Austria.

You would have been Adolf Hitler. That's it. And what about people who change? like significantly. Well, they can change, but yes, you can change, but that doesn't mean you have free will. Well, how do you change? Because how does the tide go in and out?

Tide doesn't have free will, but it changes. No, people who get sober after having been. Yeah, because they were programmed to decide that they were going to get sober. Well, how come some people can do it and some people can't? Because if some people were programmed with the ability and some people, the programming didn't have the ability. So you're completely at the mercy.

That's right. That's depressing. That's why I try not to think about it too often. But, and I try to say, well, I'm satisfied with the illusion. And I thank my lucky star is that I wasn't born Jeffrey Dahmer, that I wasn't born any number of people that have done unspeakable things. We have the choice to make terrible decisions every day, though. But I don't believe it's truly a choice.

Well So I guess we're agree to disagree What do you think about that, Stephen? I'm kind of in the middle of both I think our brains are more like antennas It's like whatever's coming in It's just trying to sort it out Yeah, okay

But I agree We can't really control what it does Just like a filter we tweak But that's insane You fight urges all day long Yeah because my programming Is to fight those urges Yeah, my filter's not good

enough yet. No, I don't think that you're, I actually... Well, we're not going to obviously see eye to eye on this. Okay. Would you like to move on to a different topic? And what are the listeners think? Why don't you tell us in the comments? Do you agree with me that we make decisions and choices? We do make decisions. We do make choices. But the question is, are we programmed to make those decisions and choices? Do we have any other, you know, are there any other choices of decisions we could have made given our experience and our biology. It sounds almost religious.

Just like a meteor has no free will. A meteor does what it does following the laws of physics. Well, the laws of physics that are dictating all the atoms and molecules in our brain that are moving according to the laws of physics. Our decisions are simply the result of the movement of atoms, molecules, energy, charges. And what about the relationships that we make? You're beating the same dead horse. I mean, I'm trying to revive the horse.

The horse ain't coming back. It's the same dead horse you're beating. Yes, we make decisions. Yes, we, we, we, we, but the question is, are we pre-programmed to make the decisions that we're making? Okay. Um, I don't know. I do agree that it's sort of depressing, but I'm not happy about it necessarily,

but I don't think about it too much. Okay. Because I think the illusion of free will is sufficiently. sufficiently, you know, potent. Okay, okay. I'd wait to know what our listeners think. Let's move on to... Our listeners think what their biology is telling them to think.

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That's code seller, C-E-L-L-A-R to get $50 in lineups after you play your first $5 lineup. Price Picks, it's good to be right. we were going to debrief from our last episode. What was our last episode again? Well, it was with Michael Oren. Oh, no, I don't recall. Did we say we're going to debrief that episode?

Or Seth Dylan? Or none of the above? Well, look at your notes. But also, we did a show we were going to talk about. We did a show, Parreale's birthday show. Yeah, we did Parryel's birthday show. And who was in the audience? Was it all your friends?

No, not all. I mean, there were some of my friends there. There were... Because the whole show was Jews. Like the lineup? The lineup. Yeah, the line. And I think when you do a show that's aimed for the public, in other words,

if it was your birthday show and everybody was in the audience where you're invitee, then, well, do whatever you want. Well, if you're saying to people, hey, come see a show, it's just a comedy show. And everybody's the same. I mean, we're not literally the same because not every Jew is the same. But when it's a little, a little, a little, you know, diversity. Listen, this is a complaint that you have on this show also. Yes, I do.

You're constantly complaining. Well, but now I don't complain as much anymore because now we've sort of, our audience is what it is at this point. You're always saying things are too Jewish. Number one, it is my show, right? Like, it's my show. Yeah, but you're doing a show for the general public. Okay, but it's advertised by me. But they don't know that.

They're just saying, oh, it's a comedy club. There's a show tonight. Perry, yeah, whatever. All the comics are listed. They don't know. Matt Friend and, these people don't know what a Jew is necessarily. It does say no anti-Semites. It should say all Jews, all Jew lineup.

It says no anti-Semites. Isn't that enough? It said that? I always write that. No smoking, no recording. Oh, is it added in big print or small? I don't know. It's whatever my biology.

I'm just saying if you're doing the show for the general public. Yeah, well, there were. Mindful that the general public might have different points of view, different perspectives. They might want to see a black guy on the show. That's fine. Sometimes there are black eyes on the show. But that night, it was... The other show I did for you was the same thing.

Well, that show is... Well, maybe it's very Jewish. So I'm just saying... By the way, I don't think I'm at a line to say, be mindful of the audience. And say, well, you know, the people might come. Maybe they liked it. Maybe an Asian woman might be interesting. They're...

First of all, Not diversity for diversity sake, but diversity because there are different points of view. Well, I think that they're, I'm going to push back and say that I think that each comic was very different. It was pretty Jewish. I mean, that is a little bit my brand, if we're being honest. And the audience was quite mixed. And they had a blast. You're saying they don't know it's Jewish from the get-go when they're buying tickets. I'm saying, I don't think that's true. Because I've been doing that show for a while. Right. And most of the people, I think, are finding it through me. Okay. I'm not opposed to diversity. In fact, I would argue that I embrace it.

Okay. Well, you know, if in fact that's your brand and people are aware of that, then I guess that's okay. That doesn't mean that all the comics have to always be Jewish, but I like having a Jewy thing going on. I think that our people need it. Well, anyway, it was a good show. The audience was very good. Well, so why don't you start with that? Okay, I should have, whatever.

I got to it eventually. It was really fun. It was a good show, yeah. And we had my dad's oldest friend, Stu Siegel. Stu Siegel. Who got on stage for the first time in his life. He's probably almost, he's probably in his late 70s.

He looks good. He looks great. He was my dad's paddle ball partner for, like, I don't know, 40 years. Paddle ball. That was before pickleball. Yeah. It was similar to pickleball. It's tougher. It's tougher than, it's like a tough, kind of like New Yorkie. I remember I played it like once or twice with my

father years ago. You play it, it's like pickleball kind of, but you play it in like a cage so the ball can like bounce off the side of the. Well, there's a wall. It's like a mesh wall. Or it's outside. They used to play out. But I remember it was a mesh wall and you could hit the ball like onto the mesh wall. No. Or maybe that's just because I couldn't hit straight. No, it's not a mesh wall. It's a concrete wall. But you could hit the wall, right? It was like

I don't know what the rules of paddle ball are now. This is really, um, it's like handball with paddles. That's right. There you go. It was like it looked like a tennis court, but it was smaller. And I believe you could hit it off the wall. It's like here on West Forth with the wall. You hit it against It's not over a net. It was over a net when I did it. No, it was not. No net. There's no net. Well, I played it with a net. Maybe it's a different game. You were paying tennis, maybe. No, I was playing paddle ball. That's not paddle. At the Italian. Center in Stamford, Connecticut. There's no net.

Because we didn't belong to the Jewish Center because they didn't have tennis. So my father said, fuck these Jews. And we went to the Italian Center. There's no net. There was a net when we played it at the Italian. Then it wasn't paddleball. Anyway, so Stu always tells these

like old, talk about Jewish jokes. These Jewish jokes, my whole life. They weren't all, they were Jewish style. They were very Jewish style. You're fine. It's 540. I promise I will tell you. I also have to have time to buy ice cream.

I can't show up empty. I mean, yeah, granted, it's my birthday dinner. But can't show up to a guy's house empty-handed. You should buy it. I got some Hagen-Daz. Yeah, just don't buy Ben and Jerry. I don't buy Ben and Jerry's. We could talk about that, actually, next.

Okay, so Stu Siegel, I had my mother, I had a birthday party for my mom a few months ago, and Stu came, and he was telling jokes the entire time. and I was, my favorite joke that he told, he told that night. Did you hear any of them? I heard a whole thing. About the Great Dane? Yes, the one with the Great Dane.

The wife said, went to the vet. A woman goes to the vet. Yeah, a woman goes to the vet and says, my Great Dane mounted me. You're never going to believe this. It's like the guy said, why are you here? I'm telling the joke. No, but you're not, tell the whole joke. Go ahead.

I'm telling the essence of the joke. Okay. The woman takes her great day into the vet, says, says, yeah, I came out of the shower and the dog mounted me. And the vet said, oh, you wanted me to put him to sleep? And the woman says, no, I want you to trim his nails. So, anyway, those were the jokes that he was telling. But these were jokes that, you know, people tell, like, on the street.

They're not, but you have to ask yourself, there's a question I've wondered for years. Who wrote those jokes? I know. Because they're great jokes. It's a great joke. somebody wrote them they didn't they didn't just appear out of nowhere they it seems almost that they appear out of nowhere it's an amazing but somebody wrote them i assume that but why isn't

this person taking credit for it first of all where is this person saying yeah i wrote that joke all these jokes that people tell each other it's amazing who wrote somebody must have written them somewhere there's also that joke that stew didn't tell that gilbert godfrey used to tell all the time. Which one is that? When the mother takes the baby to the ocean. Oh, yeah, yeah. The baby, say the ocean, and the baby, a wave takes the baby out to sea, and the mother

prays, please God, bring my baby back, you know, and the baby, and a wave then deposits the baby back on shore, and the mother looks at God and says, he had a hat. So, who wrote that joke? I don't know who wrote that joke. I don't know. And I, you know, these jokes, because these jokes are very, very good. And, you know, we have all these comedians out there. It's very depressing in a way because Stu's up there.

He's killing. Killing. Stu's killing. And I'm like, well, why am I, why, why am I writing material? I mean, this works just as well, you know. Why am I killing myself? Why am I trying to write? And why is every comedian out there?

I mean, you know, trying to write these jokes. I mean, you know. And nobody. the audience gives the shit and they don't give a shit. They were dying. They know good and well that he didn't write those jokes.

They don't care. They don't care. They're not like, oh, that's so unique. So you say, what the hell's the point of it? But, I mean, I'm not an audience member and I haven't been an audience member for a long time, I suppose.

Well, the question is, is there an enjoyment of comedy that goes beyond just the laughs? If we were to measure laughs, and we'd say, well, still got just as many laughs. laughs as I did, say, for example, theoretically. I don't know if he did, but

is there a level of enjoyment that goes beyond just the volume of laughter? Do you enjoy a show on another level? Do you enjoy hearing about the comics life? That that provides... And with some comics, it's obvious that people do.

You know, comics that have that kind of storytelling style, you're enjoying the jokes, but you're also enjoying a story about the comics life and about his trials and you might be enjoying the comics political point of view, if a comic is political. What would Noam say to that, do you think? I think Noam would say, he would say that, yes, you can enjoy a show on a different level.

But ultimately, the volume of laughter is the most important. I mean, that's, I think, how they booked the room. That's what I'm saying. So, you know, of course, that's the thing that's the most objective. You know, it's hard to measure, oh, did the audience, you know. But like when Dave Chappelle is on stage. And he'll go on for an hour or two. And, you know, there'll be, there'll be stretches of, you know, five minutes,

where there's no laugh. That's different. But the audience is engaged. Right. So what I'm going to say is. And he can do it because he's Dave Chappelle. Right. But what I'm going to say is, and I think that I'm agreeing with your supposition,

is that if I were telling those jokes that Stu told, they wouldn't be as funny. Because part of what makes them funny is that it's Stu. that he is an older Jewish guy that has sort of... And he's telling dirty shit. Yeah, and he sort of leaned into this character, right? And also...

I wasn't really a character. It's just an old guy telling dirty jokes, which is going to be funny on that level as well. So that's the character, though. Well, that's sort of a character, I guess. Like if... I don't know if it's a character. It's just...

Well, whatever it is. It works on that level. If you were telling those jokes, they'd be funny, too. I'm sure it would get good laughs. But maybe somebody who's older, who's a senior citizen, and I'm not a senior citizen yet, yeah, you get a little extra, umph. Yeah.

You know, because for some reason we have this perception of older people as not being dirty, but I don't know why that would be. And because, you know, these people, I mean, they, you know, these people, their lives were a lot more sort of dangerous. I mean, they fought Hitler, you know, these people. Well, I'm not sure. Stu Siegel fought Hitler. I don't know if he fought Hitler.

He's probably too young. I mean, because of World War I. But the point is, his older people have lived lives, you know, they've lived lives. I mean, they've done things. You know, why would they,

why, but for some reason, we associate older with, you know, not being dirty. I mean, these people had sex long before we even knew what sex was. Right. You know? All right.

But, yeah, Stu, I don't think Stu fought Hitler because he's too young. He had the night of his life. I'm glad, good. He had so much fun. He sent me a really sweet message. Maybe Stu, what was his profession?

He worked at Tiffany for many, many years. You mean Tiffany like the jeweler? Yeah. Was he engraving? Was he in engraving? I don't think so. Anyway, whatever. I don't know why I asked that question.

I knew somebody that was an engraver at Tiffany's, but. Well, maybe they know each other. could be. Well, she died. Great. But in any case, but Stu lives on going strong. And he said that he might have caught the bug. I mean, imagine that. I mean, you might have to break it just too gently that you really have to write your own jokes.

I mean, it was funny, but... No, it could become a schick that, like, that's what... Maybe you don't have to write your own jokes, as it turns out. Well, the conventional wisdom is you do. But maybe the conventional wisdom is wrong. Well, conventional wisdom also dictates that you don't... And then we become a stand-up comedian at 80 years old. But you might say to Stu, look, Stu, you killed.

No question about it. You're killed. But if you want the respect of other comedians and to get booked places, you've got to write your own shit. Because I don't think a club would book somebody that just did that. And even if they did, you know, if he wants the respect of his colleagues. But what if you don't want them? But maybe you say, fuck my colleagues. Stu's going to be like headlining Madison Square Garden in a year.

Well, there was, isn't there that thing, old Jews telling jokes or something? Probably. It was something, a big internet thing. That's funny. Well, maybe he'll play the garden. I mean, look, comics were all writing our own jokes, so I guess there's a market for people. I assume that people, if you did that, would the audience feel gypped? I, you know, I mean, do they, you know, I don't know.

I think if you tell people what you're listening to, then they don't feel chipped. I think it's the seller if a comic went up and just, I don't know how they would react. And even if they said what like the, with the correct introduction and accurate introduction? Well, yeah, he's a new guy like he's, you know, his dream was always to do stand-up and he, yeah, then they would. But if it was like regular person on the lineup, I don't know. I don't know. No, I think that that's for sure. I'm not sure how it would go.

I agree with you. No, of course. It's like the number one rule that you have to write your own. But again, maybe that number one rule is. Maybe it's wrong. I don't know. And don't perform in reality. Because Gilbert also used to do, you know, dirty old jokes.

Yeah. You know. But he was Gilbert and I think a lot of people just enjoyed the fact that they were seeing a celebrity. You know. And he had that, you know, he talked like this. So he added that to it. That was so good.

Do that again? Gilbert, I don't, not very good. You say that and then you do like an amazing impression. Lawrence Henderson. I saw it. Florence had this, doing a squid. Anyway. That was perfect.

I do better Gilbert, like, offstage, Gilbert, like, oh, I don't know. Just quiet, Gilbert. It's really good. I'm not sure. Gilbert, but, you know, Gilbert, I once told Gilbert that him and Adolf Hitler had one thing in common is very few people

ever heard them not screaming. Did you see Dara? Dara is a... Yeah, I saw it. Okay. What else? Well, what's on your list? Well, I have a lot of things on my list, but now you're making me nervous because it's $5.50, and I feel we had a really good show. Well, let's do another thing on the list. Okay. You want me to read you on the list?

I have anti-Semitic comments. What else you got? Trans girls. Well, trans. Oh, yeah. Why? We talk... Is that because we always talk about trans girls? And so we just... We were going to talk about why that always comes up.

Well, it's an interesting topic. Well, there are lots of interesting topics. I know, but that one's particularly interesting. Why is it particularly? Well, I find it particularly interesting. You know. Well, that's why it's all this. Well, I mean, one thing we were talking about with...

What's his name? Seth Dylan. Is he said these people are mentally ill. Because they're men who think they're women. And my honest... I'm not just saying this to be political. correctly correct. One could make that, I can't say he's wrong, but I view it that they're more physically ill, that they're women psychologically, but men biologically. In other words,

to me, women has two components to it, a physical and a psychological. I think there's such a thing as a woman's brain. Now, feminists might take issue with that. But I think they do have a woman's brain. I think that they are women psychologically. But they're not. But they're men biologically. So who's to say, you know, people say, well, they're men because they're biologically men, but I could say, well, they're women because they're psychologically women. And who's right? And the answer is nobody.

I don't think anybody's right. I think it's just how we choose to define a woman. And that's it. I think that Seth Dillon has never been to Thailand. Well, I don't know that he has. Why? No, because they're very convincing. Because there's a whole.

world of women of trans girls in Thailand. I don't know that that would change his mind on the issue. Well, I was making a joke. But anyway, yes, but I think that But I don't think he's, I don't, I don't think it's wrong to say they're men and I don't think it's wrong to say they're women. Well, I think, of course it's wrong to say they're men.

Well, how do you define a man? And who's in charge of... They're trans women. That's what they are. Yes, they're trans women. But if they wanted to define men, is anybody that's biologically a man, then I can't say you're wrong, because I'm not in charge of the English language. Who's in charge of the English language? Basically, speakers of a given language

dictate ultimately how words are defined. You know, words are defined by how people use those words. And some words, different people define differently. So, you know, but it's not up to me to say, Here's what the word means, and I, and this is, you know, I can't, I don't have that authority. You know, I think it's polite to call them women just out of politeness because you don't want to insult them and they feel very, and they, and I believe that in their, in their core, yes, I mean. Yeah, of course. You know, who's saying that if it's not true?

Like, who's saying that if they don't actually feel that way. But if somebody defines a woman as along biological lines, I can't say that. they're wrong. How can I say they're wrong? If I'm not in charge of how words get defined. It's not that. I might say they're rude if they do it in front of a person who's sitting right there and are nasty about it. Yeah. Well, that's a whole different thing. But that's a whole different argument.

That's a whole different thing. I'm about, you know, so I think it's a, as Noam has said, it's a problem with an imperfect solution. You know, you have these people that, yes, they want to participate in women's sports. And should they? I don't know. Well, that's a whole different conversation. It's tragic if they can't participate in sports because they have a biological advantage

so they can't participate in women's sports, but participating in men's sports would be problematic too. That would be tragic. So there's no easy solution necessarily. I mean, to me, I would say let them compete in women's... But I'm not a sports person. I don't give a shit. But for people that it's a big deal,

whether they get that scholarship, it means something. And if they're competing against someone that has a biological advantage, can't dismiss their complaint. I don't give a shit, but I, you know, but if somebody, the sports is a big thing in their lives, and there's a scholarship writing on it,

or there's a title, or something that means a lot to them, never meant anything to me, but if it means a lot to them and they have to compete against a biological male, I can't dismiss their concerns. Yeah, that's a complicated

issue. I I don't have a great solution to that. I mean, I could play with the women, you know, in terms of my ability. I'm sure they would have been happy to have you. I would have an ass whoopped. What sport was your other than faith? Well, I played tennis as a kid. And I wanted to play hockey because all the kids at my school were like, not all the kids,

but there was a group of kids that were into hockey. So I said, oh, I want to play hockey. My father said, you're not going to play hockey. First of all, I'm not waking up at 5 in the morning to take you to the rink. And you're too small. You play tennis. How old were you when he said that? I was middle school, so 11.

Okay. No, younger. Did that crush your spirit? Younger, like five. Five. Fifth grade, I mean, fifth grade. Did that crush your spirit? No, I was like, oh, tennis is cool.

Okay. You know, and honestly, I, it would, because for some reason, the rink, you had to get up at like five in the morning because the rink was being used all day. So the kids that played hockey had to get up at, like, their parents had to drive them to the rink at like 5 a.m. And I kind of got it. I'm like, yeah, you know, I probably. I probably shouldn't make the guy get up at 5 in the morning to take me to the rink. That's probably a reasonable objection.

And I wasn't married to hockey. I just ought to be cool, but tennis was fine. So I played tennis, but I stunk at it. Didn't I buy a picture of you? Oh, that playing ping pong. Oh, that was ping pong. I have to find that. And I'm good at tennis if you've never played tennis.

Because I took lessons, and so I had the right, you know, the form, and I knew how to, you know, kind of how to do it. but I was at no natural gifts for it whatsoever. Moreover, tennis requires a lot of mental strength. I didn't have that either. Oh, God, Dan. If I would be down a few points, I would just say, ah, fuck it, I don't. Because you really have to, in tennis, if you're down a few points, you can't just give up.

You have to be tough, and you have, and the opposite is true. If you're up a few points, you can't give in. You have to maintain the pressure. So on both. Why is that the case? Because there aren't that many points? Well, I think that's true with any game But in tennis in particular

It's because the way it's scored is kind of weird Like if you're down three points If you lose the next point You lose the whole game So if you fight your way back And you still lose the game You get no credit for the points you got You're still lost

It's kind of a mind fuck It's like the SATs when they said Okay, I don't know they still do this But they said okay one of the sections of the SATs isn't going to count But we're not going to tell you which one Right, right, right. And it's a real mind fuck.

I don't think they should do that. And I don't know if they still do that. I didn't know that. Well, maybe it wasn't the case when you took them. Because they're testing out new questions. So one of the sections didn't count, but they didn't tell you which one. That's insane. So you didn't, like, you're doing it and you're working and you're like, but this might not count.

I mean, it's sort of a mind fuck. How did you do on your SATs? I did all right. What about chess? I don't play chess. That seems like a game that's right up your alley. I guess, but it never... Never resonated?

Never resonated, no. You'd probably be good at Chuck. Maybe. Never, never... I never really learned. I think my father played... I taught me how to play it, but... What about Clue?

Is that... Well, I don't know. I guess I've played Clue. Well, it sounds like you weren't like a big board game family. Um, well, no, not really. I don't really. I mean, uh... My neck literally makes noise when I'm...

move it. You're like crunches. Maybe you should get some acupuncture. It doesn't hurt. It just makes noise. If I'm checking for my blind spot, the whole car knows. All right. What else?

Do you have anything else you'd like to say to wrap up because you need to go get... Oh, I'm starting. Me and Kyle Dunnigan are starting a science podcast. Okay. We had our first guest who was an astrophysicist. Okay. From the Brooklyn Borough of Manhattan Community College. But she went to Johns Hopkins for her Ph.D.

In person? In person. She came to the studio at Dallas Department. And we talked about black holes and whether we're ever going to Mars and issues of the like. And are we? Well, hopefully, well, not any time soon. And what about that?

A lot according to her and not according to everything I've seen online about it. And was it fascinating? Just too hard to go to Mars. Yeah, it was very interesting. Anyway, we hope to have it up posted soon. I'll keep everybody posted on it. Well, you've got to hurry up.

You can't let these things. Well, look, it's not going to go stale. It's not like we're going to be in Mars next week, and then we're like, oh, that's kind of a dated topic. You know, black holes, you know, they're still going to be valid in the week's time. Fair enough. Yeah, no. Hey, so I've got to go to my birthday.

dinner. Okay. Thank you everybody for this. This is a change of pace. A little something different. We do every now and again when Noam's out of town. Podcast at Comedycellar.com. If you have any suggestions or comments. And we'll see you next time. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.