The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Brian Koppelman

Episode Date: March 24, 2016

Brian Koppelman

We're here at the Comedy Cellar Show here on Sirius XM Channel 99, a comedy channel, and we have filmmaker, director, writer, Brian Koppelman. We're talking about his son and his son's roommate. His son's roommate, Tim, is one of the five or six greatest polyglots in the world. Is that correct? Well, I don't know. That may be an exaggeration. He's a famous polyglot.

And if you even know what that is, you probably know who he is. Yeah. He speaks like 22 languages, including the click language. And he learns, first he learns

all the words to turn women on, by the way, because he does very well. And we've tested him. Yeah. You guys had him on the show. He was fantastic.

But Dan was saying that in Roman times you would have taken him under your wing was saying that in Roman times, you would have taken him under your wing. No, I believe I said you would have taken him under your wing. He was trying to create a relationship between the two of you, sort of a professor-student relationship with benefits for the professor. And it wasn't Roman times. It was the Greeks that pioneered that particular form of pedagogy. Ah, very good word. Pedagogy.

That's the word. You know, if you would have used that first word for a season of Last Comic Standing, everything would have been different. Oh, body roll. Welcome back, Kristen, by the way, from España. What was Kristen doing in España? I was out of...

You'll have to wait. Go ahead. No, I just wanted just welcoming her back from España. I just... I'm a little jet-lagged. But I was at a friend's wedding. A friend who I made in Spain when I lived there. And she's Spanish.

That's a long way to go. She married an American. And so I went for the wedding. Are you fluent? Yeah. So you're a polyglot. You speak multiple languages. Yeah, multiple languages. She speaksglot. You speak multiple languages.

Yeah, multiple languages. She speaks English and Spanish, right? Yes. I speak a little bit of French and a little bit of Italian. I don't think that qualifies. I do. I'm going to rule in favor. Yeah? I mean, I could get by.

I think polyglot, by definition, has to be an extreme ability with language. Well, it seems she might have an extreme ability, even if not yet an extreme full knowledge or command. I'm definitely not clicking. Right, you can't do it. I'm definitely not at that level. Holy God, that's like calling me a porn star because I took one selfie of me and a naked girl.

Good, I like that analogy. I think he's right. That was a terrible analogy. It was a great analogy. All right, so we're here with Brian Koppelman, of me and a naked girl. Good. I like that analogy. I think he's right. That was a terrible analogy. It was a great analogy. All right. So we're here with Brian Koppelman, who went to Tufts with me,

although we didn't know each other at Tufts. That's right. And we were both... Were you guys there at the same time? Yes. How did you not know each other? We were both friends with Tracy Chapman, although he was responsible for discovering her and making her famous,

and I just got to play with her from time to time. Wait, what year did you graduate? 80. 84. Right. Yeah. We missed each other her from time to time. Wait, what year did you graduate? 80. 84. Right, yeah. We missed each other. I graduated in 88. Oh, you did? Yeah, we just missed each other. Ah. Tracy was two years younger than me?

That's right, because she was two years older than me. With regard to the song Fast Car, I'm not sure if I asked the misquestion, but how the hell is she going to buy a big house and live in the suburbs working at a convenience store? You waited to invite me back to the podcast, the two years, emails, and that's what we open with?

Can I just list his accomplishments from Wikipedia so people know the gravitas of the man we're speaking to? Films, Rounders, Knock Around Guys, Interview with an Assassin, Walking Tall, The Illusionist, Ocean's 13 Writer, Lucky Ones Producer, Solitary Man, The Girlfriend Experience, Run Around a Television, Street Lawyer, Tilt, Billions, and the new Showtime series. Billions. Billions. I have to confess, if it's not on Fox News, I don't see it.

Oh, my God. But, wow, that was like an involuntary wince you had there. It was just a joke. No, I was just thinking about picturing you at home all greased up and watching Megyn Kelly. No, that's how he watches O'Reilly. You first get greased up to watch O'Reilly, and then you can finish when you're watching Megyn Kelly. So the wince was at the thought of me, not Fox News? You and Fox News together.

Megyn Kelly does look hot. You see her short haircut? She looks pretty good. She looks like Claire from... It's turning. What's the... Kevin Spacey? Oh, House of Cards.

From House of Cards, yeah. So... Oh, it's a good show, though. I got to say, you should watch the show. It's a big hit. You should watch Brilliant. It's on Showtime,

the Showtime network. Showtime 10. I hear fantastic things about it. 10 p.m. Sunday nights. And yeah, I'm the showrunner with my partner, David Levine, and created the network. Showtime 10 p.m. Sunday nights. And yeah, I'm the showrunner with my partner David Levine and created the show. Showrunner, of course, is a term that to a non-show business person is often unfamiliar. It sounds almost like a superhero. The word showrunner. Do you want me to define it?

Well, yes. Yes. to define it? Well, yes. Because... It basically means that Dave and I are responsible for all aspects of the show, from running the writer's room and writing the scripts, to casting the show and making the show, hiring everyone to direct it.

I mean, it's, you know, we're the people sort of in charge of making the show. That sounds awesome. Do you feel on a daily basis incredibly blessed in this world by like everything that's happened to you since the day you were born? Yeah, sure. The situation that you

were born into? Yeah I mean, incredibly, it's funny we're talking about these kids who are behind us here, but my son talks about it all the time, the level of yeah, I mean like, yeah, the level of privilege and advantage of just being born, just being born like a white male with educated parents in,

who weren't struggling for money. That just, for me to not have found a way to live a life that I wanted to live would be a huge defeat, I think. So, yeah, I feel grateful all the time that I had, like, two parents who stayed together. I had a dad who was successful, but more than that, was, like, home and focused on his kids. I had a mom who even had really bad ADD and got horrible report cards. And my mom found a way to find books that I would love. And so gave me this confidence.

I had the best vocabulary of anybody, even though I wouldn't do well at school. And that was because my mom would tell me that I was smart enough to understand this stuff. But you got into Tufts. Yeah, because by the time I was a senior in high school, I had done a lot of stuff, and I was able to demonstrate in other ways why they would want to have me there. And also by then, like, yeah, you could give me an SAT on the verbal side.

I did fine. I mean, yes, I would always test as certainly an intelligent person, but I did badly in school. And your father was a record producer? I did too person, but I did badly in school. And your father was a record producer? I did badly in school. Your father was a record producer? Yeah, he was a music publisher. Now, here's my question, what I'm getting at is,

I hear what you're saying, very privileged, and very grateful to be privileged, but there's a lot to be said also, it seems to me... I don't like that word, privileged, but go ahead. Well, whatever it is, there's a lot to be said for coming from nothing. In fact, people seem to like to come from nothing. This is why you need to watch Billions, because

both of these topics have been addressed in the most recent episode. We're going to address it here. A lot of comics love to say, you know, David Austin always flapping his gums about coming from a junkyard. And I think it's exaggerated. Well, at various times in your life, of course, look, the point David also always flapping his gums about coming from a junkyard. And I think it's exaggerated.

Well, at various times in your life, of course, at various times. Look, the point of saying that I had this tremendous privilege. So given that, I work 18 hours a day. You know, I'm like, I never stop. I say it was all handed to you on a silver platter. But it was, right? In a sense, Dan, despite the fact that I worked this hard, it was handed to me on a platter. Again, because I was raised in a situation that set me up to succeed

if I was willing to work hard enough. So if I was willing to put in the hours to figure it out, to push myself, how about that I had the luxury to figure out what I cared about? That's something most people don't have. That's a really good point. I didn't have to work after school in high school. I could, but I didn't have to. I cared about. That's something most people don't have. That's a really good point. I didn't have to work after school in high school. I could, but I didn't have to. I could read.

I could go take long walks. I could go think. I'd have to worry about how I was going to fill my stomach at night until I was out of college, right? So I had plenty of time to figure out what it was in this world that fired me up. What was I interested in? What did I care about? So that is what allowed me in college

to lead the divestment movement, right? Because I realized, oh, there was... You mean the South Africa? Yeah. There was this... We talked about it last time, but I was able to look at the world and go, okay, there are these things I'd like to help solve.

Then I was able to say, okay, now it's time in my life that I want to figure out what I'm really curious about and what really fires up my imagination. And then I was able to think, well, I really want to be a writer writer I had these luxuries because I had training I could go to I went to law school at night I was able to do that because I had a really great education that set me up to be able to do that I

was able to go to tutors to help me figure out if I had a learning disability how to get over that so I look at the world and I think like if I wasn't the kind of person who had managed to put myself in this position, I'd have failed everything that people like Noam, conservatives say America offers everybody. They don't.

They do offer it to people like me. I'm exactly who they offer it to. Without getting too much into... I think he mentioned my name, I'm allowed to respond. Dr. Carson, what would you like to say? First of all, I was one who actually said, don't you feel blessed in this world?

So it's not fair to say that I think it's offered to everyone. It's exactly the opposite of the point that I actually introduced, which I think you're right. I would only say that where I went to... I grew up in Ardsley, which is a town in Westchester. Yeah. Where, you know, 98% of the kids I went to high school with could say all the same things about their upbringing that you said. They had parents.

Some of them worked after school. Very few of them had to. Right. And 0.01% of them achieved what you achieved. So... Yes, I agree. No, no, I'm agreeing with that. I'm just saying that I even...

So fine, even for people who have those advantages, then yes. Look, I was really lucky, right? I was talented. That's just luck. I do want to talk for a second about Noam's situation. Because I do believe that Noam, as you know, inherited this club from his father. You know, I've been coming to this club since I was 20 years old. And it kills him.

It kills him that people don't look at him with the same respect that they looked at his father with because his father started the club. Actually, I didn't know they didn't look at me with that respect. It was just this moment. Your father was a great man. My father? He was a great man. But you always do say, no, you say, I exagger his moment. Your father was a great man. My father. He was a great man. But you always do say, no, you say,

I exaggerate somewhat, but you have said in the past that you feel that people don't take you as seriously and you're trying to make a name for yourself by, for example, the Village Underground,

the new room that you opened going to Vegas. A lot of this is your own... I'm not trying to make a name for myself. Your own desire to... You've built a business. I mean, yeah.

But you still, it still sticks in your craw. You've told me business. I mean, yeah. But it still sticks in your craw. You've told me so. I haven't put it in those words. I mean, if you want me to speak openly about exactly how I feel, when I got out of school, I took over the room next door, and I opened the wah. And first it was the Fiend John, and then we changed the name to the wah,

and the wah became a huge, huge success, you know? And I made a big mistake with The Wah that I took the name of an old village club. Right. When I named it The Wah, no one had heard of The Wah. I had to explain it to everybody. And then the concept was nothing like the original Wah, and then it kind of made the original Wah famous again, and then the new owners, after I sold it, they began to really, which I never really did,

they began to really traffic on the old. So that now, that accomplishment, and that sticks in my craw, has kind of disappeared. And I'm just telling somebody this. It's not that I don't, I really don't care. It's just that I have kids. And I want them to understand that their dad did something and now things are written or whatever it is and it's not like the original cafe wall closed in 1968 1968 and I didn't rename it till 1988 when we already had a line to come in you know it had nothing to do with the name

so that and then when my father died I had to choose between sticking with the wall which was three times the success that the comedy seller was was at the time, which was a problem between me and my father. And coming here, and I had to come here because we owned this building. So that's why I threw, you know, otherwise I would have stayed with the wall. But your kids see you, isn't it? If your kid, the example, like, I mean, what people write about you truly doesn't matter. I've had, I mean, as someone who's had been in the public eye for a long time and had a lot of stuff written about me, I mean, you have to be able to turn that off.

Your kids are going to know how you are to them, and they're going to know what they see you do. I know, but I would also like... How they see you work. How they see you treat people. You know what kids notice? Who you're nice to. They notice who you help grow. They notice the way people who work with you look at you. So you're nice to. They notice who you're, who you help grow. They notice the way people

who work with you look at you. So you're fucked. No one asks me. That's what they, that is what they notice. I get it, but I still would like, I know what my father's

accomplishments were and so that bothers me. And then I opened the Pussycat. That became a huge success and then I opened the Underground and that was That became a huge success. And then I opened the Underground. That was a big success. So I'm not... And now, since I've taken over the Comedy Cellar,

it's tripled in business or something, right? And I know that people dismiss my impact on that. And actually, that doesn't bother me that much. I mean, I can't say I wish they wouldn't give me more credit for it, but the only time I think about it is when you bring it up. No, no, you brought it up to me. But how can I understand how your impact can be dismissed? I mean, you are far from a hands-off owner.

You're far from a person that kind of lets the business run itself. You know, there's an interesting thing. In the comedy cellar, when you're dealing with comedians, my father was the same way. Just like in the goth, you have to have buffers. So I'm less, like, you know,

Chris had worked for me. Chris was one of the first employees I had in the underground. So she knows how hands-on I was. But here, I kind of like to operate

a little bit behind the scenes because I don't want to have to deal with it. So like, if I don't want to use somebody, if I don't think someone's doing well on the stage, I really

don't want them to know what came from me. Just because it's less overt does not mean that the amount of work is less. It might be less obvious. I certainly don't. Someone whose ear is to the ground with regard to the comedians, I don't hear any sentiment that underestimates. We don't really discuss it quite honestly, but I think with regard to the comedians, I don't hear any sentiment that underestimates.

I mean, we don't really discuss it quite honestly, but I think if asked, most comedians would say Norm's done a great job. It's not a dent. It's really not on my mind. This oral history really bothered me, but that's because it didn't talk about my father. Well, we'll get to that. Who did it talk about? It talked about everybody but my father.

You mean Esty and not your dad? Esty and Bill. Right. And that really, for the same reason, because I try to tell, for the kids, you know, it just bothers me. My father was not a guy who let anybody make any decisions about his plays other than himself.

I mean, he made every single decision. Well, he unfortunately wasn't here to be interviewed. Before we switch topics, can we talk about the show a little bit? Yes. So let's talk about his show. Yes, that's what I want to talk about. I unfortunately don't watch the show as well.

But there are themes. We can talk about the themes. Go ahead, Dan. I've been so out of the loop in terms of show business. I'm sort of boycotting show business. But I did recently start binge watching, and I know I'm a little late to the party, Breaking Bad. Which is not his show. It's not your show. But it is a show, and I am watching it.

You know that scene in Donnie Brasco when Brasco asks Lefty to move a diamond for him? It's the middle of a diamond, and Brasco looks at it, and he's like, it's a fugazi. And then Brasco shows Lefty a diamond, and he's like, you want to see a beautiful thing? Here's a beautiful thing. And Lefty says, that's your beautiful thing. I don't give a fuck about your beautiful thing. Breaking Bad's a great show. It's beautiful. I don't give a fuck about your beautiful thing. Breaking Bad's a great show. It's beautiful.

I don't give a fuck about your beautiful thing. I'm going to talk about my beautiful thing. Very good. Okay, but we're also here to talk about my relationship with your beautiful thing. Well, you don't fucking have one, buddy. Yes, but I'm working to... Make a relationship with it, then we're going to chat about it. I think you'd like it, Dan.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is the reason I'm watching Breaking Bad, one of the reasons is it's available with a French audio track. Dan, please, can we talk about his show, please? Yeah, we're going to get to that in a second. Is yours so-so available? With a French, he wants to listen to it in French. French audio track. Tim Doner will come and lay down a French audio at the Poly Lot.

We'll give him the episodes ahead of time. You'll pay him like, what, 25 and a half? No, but Tim's French is not better than my French. I don't think. I would like to ask you a question. I know that when you did Rounders, which was your first movie, you were a real poker player. Yes.

And you told me about that the last time. Did you have a lot of knowledge and interest in finance? Yeah, Dave and I spent like eight years researching around these. We wanted to first do this, and David Levine is my partner. We started doing this in like 2007. Prior to the crash. We first had an idea right before the crash to do something in the world of hedge funds and had a bunch of meetings, and then the crash happened, and we couldn't do it.

And so we still had these contacts and new things people. Why didn't you, and then the crash happened, and we couldn't do it. And so we still had these contacts, and we were going to do a show set in the world of hedge funds for another network in 2007. And then after the crash, it became clear that they didn't feel like there was an appetite for it, and we went on to do other shows.

Especially not a likable billionaire. Right. And we went on to do other movies then. We got Solitary Man greenlit and I think we just went off and started doing our other stuff. But the seed had been planted for us and we kept in touch

with a bunch of these people and then when we met Andrew Ross Sorkin who helped create the show with us, co-created it. He wrote Jobs, he wrote the Steven Jobs movies? No, he's not a movie writer.

No, no. And that's Aaron Sorkin. Oh, Aaron Sorkin. Andrew Ross Sorkin is a financial journalist. He had access to a lot of these billionaires. And so he introduced us. We never talk about who we sat with, but we sat with many of the most famous,

if you're in this world, hedge fund billionaires. And then, with the United States, because the show's half about the United States Attorney of the Southern District. So, it's half about the United States attorney in the Southern District. So it's half about the U.S. attorney and half about this hedge fund billionaire and their world. So what non-obvious insights have you gotten into the financial world and the people in it? Are you any more sympathetic to them than the average liberal would be? Well, if you watch the show, yeah, see, I really try not to answer those questions because I want people to watch the show and draw their own conclusions. I mean, all the reviews talk about that what they went into with thinking

we were going to do is that, a liberal's look at this. But a lot of people cheer for Bobby Axelrod, Damian Lewis' character. I'll speak to it as a viewer. Just for one thing, well, it has some of my favorite actors in it. Damian Lewis is amazing. He was in Homeland. I don't know if you ever watched Homeland,

but he was the main character. Is he in a show called, what's that show called? Breaking Bad? And Paul Giamatti is in it, who, I'll basically watch anything that he does.

Someone from Breaking Bad is in the show, though. Is he? Yes. Who is that? Right. I'm only in season two, so maybe I'm not in season two.

He's in there. David Costable is in it. Wags., so maybe I'm not in season two. He's in there. David Costable is in it. Wags. The guy who plays Wags in Billions. He had a really great role on Breaking Bad. But the whole time, you're not sure who's the good guy and who's the bad guy. And the person who should be the quintessential good guy isn't always the good guy and vice versa. And it gets into Bobby Axelrod, who's the billionaire, who owns the hedge fund.

It gets into his family dynamic and how they're battling with this. For example, what we were just talking about, how do you raise kids that are given everything? And Bobby Axelrod's wife thinks that their kids won't be prepared, aren't going to be prepared for the real world if, God forbid, something happened to their lifestyle. And how would they function? I mean, in a way, you talk about giving your kids everything.

We're all not prepared for real adversity because we've all been given everything compared to 99% of the people that have ever walked on this planet. Absolutely right. So if the government collapses and I have to hunt and kill Brian Koppelman to compete for food, I'm not going to be able to do it. Good luck trying to take me out right now. I've got three guys behind me. Let me ask you a question.

You were talking before about these people become like kings or emperors. What would you say, given your insight now, would be the effect on the psychology of Donald Trump having been Donald Trump for 30 years? You know, I think that I can't, I will not say his name into a microphone, but instead I would say what I'm interested in also is you look at people who use prosecutorial positions. Like you look at the other candidates, look at guys like Chris Christie or look at Elliot Spitzer from the past or Rudy Giulianiiani people who use positions where they were supposed to be prosecuting for the public good and then they use these posts

for their own purposes as well to get make themselves marquee names to put themselves in a position where they're uh... able to access a new strata of life and so i i think it's really easy to just even as the capitalist what about people who use the government for their own ends too? Who we entrust to act only for the people

but who end up acting for the people but also largely for themselves. What about someone who raps up prostitution of prostitutes while he's calling prostitutes? Right. Well, no, he's, I mean, disgratzia. That's what Artie Lang might say. Disgratzia. Wait one time.

I'm taken by that you're not, I mean. I'm not going to talk about that guy. I'm not going to talk about that guy. But, okay, I mean, I can't force you, but only to say that it's something that everybody in the country is talking about. And I'm not asking you to say anything positive about it, I'm just curious what, because I think that one of the big things that he's suffering from, that we're all suffering is just that it sickens your soul to have everybody tell you

yes, yes sir, yes sir for 30 years, you just you can't come out of that normal yeah, I guess the only thing I will say is he's dragooning you, he's dragooning you I'm not going to get dragooned into this conversation I will say that, yes, I think that if you could ask the same, I feel like the only name I will call him by is Prince Trumperdink.

Because to me, he is so much like Prince Humperdink in Princess Bride, who can't be insulted and gets easily so offended. And he's like, I always think everything is a trap. That's why I am still alive. Let's move on from that conversation. And I just hope that he loses. Obviously, Brian, in true Hollywood liberal fashion, is feeling the burn. I support Hillary.

Oh, really? I'm probably going to vote. I'd say 85% likelihood I'm going to vote for Hillary as well. I mean, if Bernie Sanders is a Democratic nominee, I'm voting for Bernie Sanders too. But it's personal choice, and I don't really talk about politics a lot. I tweet about, you know, sometimes, but not really specifically about politics. Did you see that thing today or yesterday where she called out Bernie Sanders for not supporting her on health care, and then they find a picture of Bernie Sanders standing right behind her.

But that's not even the worst of it. And then her campaign, when they ask her campaign to comment on it, the campaign says, yeah, see, exactly, he's standing behind her, not with her. Look, I thought the truest thing she said in that debate the other night when she said she's not a natural politician, I think it's true. She's bad at campaigning. She has a hard time connecting, but she's an incredibly bright person and

I think highly capable and competent. She's capable and competent although I will warn or say that although I think she's the only grown-up to vote for, although I would vote for Kasich, I think, but I don't know. That

element that she seems to be missing is important to be up to vote for, although I would vote for Kasich, I think, but I don't know, that element that she seems to be missing is important to be the best president you can be. I mean, she is quite tone deaf. I don't want to miss an opportunity for Talking About Politics to say, though, that I'm good buddies with Craig Mazin, who was Ted Cruz's freshman year roommate at Princeton and has gone on record and had told all of us this a long time ago that

he's on record as saying Ted Cruz is the single worst human being he's ever met. Oh gosh. I tend to believe that that's true. I find him scarier than Trumperdink or whatever. The he whose name we shall not mention. I'm really fascinated by this billionaire show now.

You have to watch it. And there's actually, you said you have a hand in most of the casting, all of the casting, because Dan Soder has a sort of... Dan, yeah, his part, yeah, Dave and I cast the whole show. I saw Jay in an episode. There's a couple of comedians. Dan Soder and I met Dan's first day in New York City at an open mic at a club uptown.

And we've been friends ever since. And Dan got down to the final three people to play Connerty and didn't get that part because when Toby Leonard Moore came in, it was over. That was the final three before Toby Leonard Moore auditioned. And then when Toby Leonard Moore auditioned, I called Dan. I was like, dude, it's over. And he understood.

He's the best. Dan Soder's not a show... He's a real friend of mine. I love that kid. He's a really talented actor. He's good in the show. He's naturally an actor and His yeah, he's in most of the episodes of the season. I had an interesting week last week I was riding in a cab and I found someone's phone Which is a weird experience to find someone else's phone first thought immediately. Do I keep it?

No, it's a droid. This guy's got it tough enough. I'm not going to kick a man when he's down. The phone was ringing when I found it, and it kind of threw me off. I didn't know what to do, so I just picked up the phone real quick. I was like, hey, if you want your cell phone, I'm going to leave it at the front desk of the Warwick Hotel, and then I dropped off the phone feeling like I had done a good deed, but I forget how creepily deep my voice is. So whoever made that call got two rings in and then just heard, if you want your cell phone,

it'll be at the front desk of the Warwick Hotel. Who is this? If I don't hear from you in the hour, I'm going to start sending pieces. Case first. It's my baby! I truly believe some, it's weird to me that in this country, some people treat their cell phones

better than their grandparents. It's mean. I love my grandma. She's awesome. She's 86. She bakes. We play gin rummy together. She talks about death with an ease that rattles my bones.

It's creepy. Have you ever talked to a really old person about death? It's just facts. No emotions. It's the closest I've ever came to interviewing a serial killer. Grandma, what happened to Rose next door? She's gone. Did she move or? You're never gonna find her.

Did you? Did you kill Rose? Gin! Oh, you sneaky nana. You're so good at gin. I find it weird that in this country, old people are treated so poorly for the main reason that they're not good with technology.

We have all this brand new technology in the last 12 years. Old people aren't good at it, so we think it's okay to just disrespect them to their face. He's like, you don't have a Gmail account, Grandma. How do you not have a Gmail account? I was born during the Great

Depression. I remember when straws were invented. My Nana doesn't know how to turn on an iPad. Nana, how can you not turn on an iPad? Oh, um, hey kid, I used to bang a guy that killed Nazis. But good job with those angry birds

But it's just funny because I know you're a friend and you know family of the comedy seller and then you just see comedians in some of these episodes

Well yeah sure I mean I have been coming here when I was 20 Alan Havy who is I call Uncle Al and who's one of the

people who's been at this club since the beginning. Virtually the beginning. Havey used to bring me, and I would hang out a lot of weekends and just watch set after set after set with your dad and with Esty. And I saw this incredible run, I'd say, from when I was like 21, 22, 23. I was here almost every weekend at some time

because I was an A&R guy in the music business. So I would go out and see bands and then in between I would just come and find Alan and hang out with everybody and the table wasn't here then. You would have to just stand in the back downstairs. Right? And back then we would stand in the back and we're up on the stairs or something.

There were plenty of seats then too. Look how many even peripheral careers the comedy seller influenced. Hugely influenced my life yeah crazy it reminded me of something and that's why for me

it's so fun that my son's been coming here since he's 17 or 18 and Noam's always taking care of him because it's like this grand Haby and Gary Goleman

who are like family would bring Sammy by all the time so yeah you had said in the Rick Chrome documentary that Bill and Rick Bill and Rick

were the best MCs to this day you'd ever seen. By far. I think. And I don't think anybody's close. Because they also invented a method of doing it. There's a Vanity Fair article this week. You can look it up. The authors here about the oral history of the comedy.

So, what Brian is saying plays into that. Go ahead. I haven't yet. They just showed me. I haven't read it yet. I'm Brian. How are you? You too. So, go ahead. Sorry. saying plays into that but i have yet i'd they just showed me i'm ready yet brian itself so glad sorry so note bill grunfest was was doing a meta version

of hosting a ship our club show right by a minute met a meaning it was commenting on itself you know met a fiction which is fiction that's aware that it's fiction right that in so to me grunfest wasn't just trying to get laughs like the guy danger fields would have been grunfest was also in a uh... aware of the irony of being in that position of moving the thing along it was just

he was hyper bright and he would do this corny stick with rekt knowing it was corny stick and it was funny because it was corny and that was so in the zeitgeist of the time but it also was really elevated and i remember being right at the age uh... that was of the sort of MTV generation and just feeling like those guys were really speaking to me and to us. Bill, and I remember the conversations about this, and it's one of the reasons that he got

on with my father very well. Bill recognized the appeal of nostalgia. Nostalgia is always appealing. There's always this time in people's past that they just enjoy. And he would do the TV theme songs and all that stuff. And the comedians would roll their eyes. And the audience loved it. And we loved it. I adored it. It was my favorite thing.

Get to Green Acres. And the way that they would do it. He knew it was an absurd thing to do. Whereas the old Borch Belt comedian would do it just for the laugh. Bill knew it was an absurd thing to do. Whereas like the old Borch Belt comedian would do it just for the laugh. Bill knew it was a silly thing to do. And he enjoyed tweaking the comedians. And he liked getting the laugh with like the kind of old whorey joke. That was funny to him.

And if you were hip to what he was doing, it was hilarious to you. And that he made Rick cool and fun, too, was also absurd and great. So, I mean, to me, yeah, that was a very special, magical time. I agree with you a thousand percent. I remember at the time, Bill was the guy who started the first MC of the Comedy Zone, had the initial idea for the Comedy Cellar and booked the room at first for a long time, like six, seven years, right? And very quickly in his career, he didn't want to work during the week anymore. He would work just weekends. He booked the whole, he didn't want to work. And I remember

we were all like, no, it's just not the same when you're not here, Bill. It's just not the same. Most MCs, even to this day, in the end, they want to do time. They want to be comedians. Bill wanted to keep the room happy. Yes. He didn't, he didn't, he was putting, he put, and that's really what a masters of ceremonies is, right? You're right. Jessica Pilot is the, uh, comedy super fan who, uh, has written an, uh, an article in this week's Vanity Fair online called an oral history of the comedy seller. And she got some big names such as Jon Stewart and Ray Romano to talk to her.

And, uh, what do you, her. Thank you for having me. My pleasure. You want to tell us, how did you get Jon Stewart, who is very interview-shy, to do this interview? Well, Jon, I learned, is a true comedian. He's going back to his roots as a stand-up comic, and he truly loves comedy. So everyone wants to talk to John,

but John happened to want to talk about stand-up, and so I reached out, and I got the interview. That's pretty much it. Speaking of John Stewart, he does say something I find interesting. Your article's an oral history. I just got an urgent message.

You guys can see him. This is an emergency. Okay. You interviewed a bunch of comics, and they talked about the Comedy Cellar. That's what the article is. That's right. Right. So I just want to say, Jon Stewart, actually, it's too bad Noam's not here,

because I did have a question for him. But Jon Stewart says, I will always be grateful that Esty let me work. Esty's the person who books the Comedy Cellar. That Esty let me work there when I sucked. When you are running a business, that is not the greatest choice to make. I don't know when that was, but that is certainly no longer the case that Esty will let you work

here when you suck. He seems to think that he sucked when he was starting out. What I really loved when I was talking to him for this article is that he just felt so honored to even have

the opportunity to do stand-up here. I mean, he was grateful. He said of all the things, you know, that he's most proud of, he said it's all, he always looks back

and thinks about doing stand-up. And that really stood out to me. I mean, I think we find that with a lot of the comedians that we talk to on the show, and even more so with the ones who have kind of made it big or gone on to do other things. They always hold this place for stand-up in their hearts

that is just, you know, nothing compares. Well, some of them do. Ray Romano doesn't do a lot of stand-up anymore. Ray Romano does not have the same zest for stand-up that Chris Rock does, that Louis does. He doesn't, and he's told me as such. He doesn't do that many spots, and he doesn't have the same zest for it that those other guys do. I have to go. Oh, my God, I've got to do a spot.

A lot of these guys I talk to, they have to do comedy every night. They have to go back, even if it's once a month, once a week. But with Ray, you know, I guess it's a little different. We had just talked when you were dealing with your emergency

about how Jon Stewart said that Esty let him go on even when he sucked. But the point is a valid one. He never sucked. The point is a valid one and I think you have an overly romantic view

of early Jon Stewart, by the way. That's my guess. That's my guess. I actually saw him inside of Brian. Because, you know, Norm has a tendency is once you become famous, you were saw him inside of Brian. Because, you know, no one has a tendency

because once you become famous, you were and always were a genius. Yeah, but I took certain steps back then that I wouldn't have taken. I remember going up to that guy and starting to talk to him and thinking, like, oh, I want to be friends with that dude.

He's hilarious. All right, okay. I remember Bill Bruntfuss telling me this guy's going to be a big star. Well, I'll say this. Everyone knew that because of what he was doing. Did anyone here doubt him? You didn't know. All right. Okay. I remember Bill Brunt for telling me this guy's going to be a big star. Well, I'll say this. Everyone knew that because of what he was doing. You didn't know. Come on.

You can't predict this shit. Nobody knew that. I can. I just told you. What the fuck is the matter with you? All I did was tell you what somebody said to me. Yes, but you're telling it like it's fact, and the point is you probably said that about a lot of people. I was wrong about several of me. You're telling it like it's fact and the point is, you probably said that about a lot of people. I was wrong about several

of them, but the one guy that made it, he said, I said he was going to make it. People thought I was going to make it. And look at me now. Nobody ever said that, Dan. You know, I'll tell you. People can tell, actually. Very often people can tell. People like Noam and Esty can tell. Noam cannot tell. That's how great he is.

I think I'm starting to be able to tell. Noam cannot tell. No, I cannot tell. That's how great it is. I can tell. I think I'm starting to be able to tell. Lucky for you, I can't tell. No, I cannot tell. Dan Soder calls me one day after Michael Che had been at this club for two weeks. Don't say Michael Che in front of Dan. Dan Soder called me. Sam, you remember this, too. Dan Soder called, and he goes, you've got to come down to the cellar.

I said, why? He goes, because there's a guy here who's about to become the biggest comedian anywhere. This guy, Michael Che, Dan goes, I've never seen anything like what happens when this guy walks on a stage. Who else said that, Dan? I don't know who else. I said that. He used to drive you crazy. And he was like, and I know other comedians may say, oh, the joke.

But Dan was just like, you've got to come see this. I've never seen anything like it. And Dan's a real purist about comedy. And he was just like, I've never seen something happen like what happens when this guy shows up. He's a rocket ship. Watch the rocket ship. Well, a lot of people say a lot of things about a lot of comics. Every now and again, they're right.

I don't think you can predict any of this shit. And I think a lot... I think it's all random. No, it's not all random. But how do you explain Dan Natterman still in the fucking position he's in right now? Asperger's. I got the best. Asperger's explains it.

You already said, unless they're mentally ill. That's what holds people back. It was your opening line. Obviously the Asperger's. That's the thing. You're probably right. You're probably right. That's the difference maker.

What did he say in the beginning? The only reason people don't succeed is if they're mentally ill or dependent. I didn't mean it. Show business. This is the one exception to the rule. Also, you are more successful by your thing about John McEnroe. Yeah. I mean, you're one of the most successful comedians in the world, Dan Natterman.

I've said that. You've been on television heavily. You are well-known. You have followers. You have people who like to come see you. And people like you. Damn it. Calm down about the liking.

Gosh darn, people like you. You are an actual success. Now, by your own definition of success, you're a failure. That has to do with your parents. But that has nothing to do with the truth of the matter, which is, you're a successful comedian. Sometimes it's as simple as the way the light hits somebody's eyes.

Like, you know that when you do what I do for a living. Sometimes you put the camera on somebody and they start saying the words and it's just magical. You give me half an opportunity on film and I'll show you. I'll show you. Can you explain to me

William Shatner's odd charisma? I can't explain it, but I know it's true. What do you think? Tell us, Jessica. I think he's wildly charming. And it comes across in all the different ways, you think? I think so. I find his charisma to be similar to that man who we shall not speak his name.

I thought he was kind of the William Shatner of politicians. Lord Voldemort. You cannot explain it, but you cannot look away. It doesn't matter what he says or whatever it is. Did you ever hear William Shatner sing Lucy in the Sky with Diamond? I love it. It's comedy. Comedy gold.

But you can't explain it. It grips you somehow. Mind yourself watching. It's comedy. Comedy gold. But you can't explain it. It grips you somehow. Mind yourself watching. Anyway, Jessica, so you wrote this. Did I miss anything more? You wrote this story. Are you getting a lot of feedback about it? Yeah, I'm getting a lot of great feedback.

She's nervous. You can see it in her head because she knows I wasn't happy with the story. Which was surprising. Well, it shouldn't have been surprising. Yeah, but Vanity Fair story about your club. Yeah. That's pretty good. Yeah, it's great. I surprising. Yeah, but Vanity Fair story about your club? Yeah. That's pretty good. Yeah, it's great.

I wasn't personally happy with the... Because your father, you felt, got short-tripped. Yeah, I can't believe that nobody... Either nobody said or the editors chose to cut out under the guise of supposedly an oral history the main force in the club. Well, ultimately... Well, it was an oral history of interviews with people.

And I collected stories, and I wrote what I still believe is a great story. And ultimately, when you hand a story to an editor, the editor has to decide what is best for the publication, for the readership. They don't feel any obligation, let's get this truthful and correct.

You're doing journalism, and you're calling it an oral history. It's verbatim. Of course you want it verbatim, but shaped by cutting things and printing other things. And if the impression that you leave in the end is not what most people would agree was actually what happened, I'm asking you seriously now, is it just an entertainment piece?

We don't really care if it's accurate or not, just as long as it's got Jon Stewart as a big name and it's nice to read. Or do they actually sit and say, okay, but are we getting this right? What do you think I don't know I personally got wrong because all I did I just told you what was wrong with it but specific points

in the article because I'm actually getting a lot of great feedback where a lot of the comics are sharing it and saying you did a great job

this is wonderful everybody likes the article but me I know I'm not I'm not because I'm the only you know the daily news

is gonna write it I'm the only one who cares deeply. I would like to please read this quote from Ray Romano about Esty. It's clear all that's going on is you really, really loved and miss your dad. And

your dad was a great man, and all the comics always talk about, in fact this whole podcast that you do is honoring him. Because he would have these conversations about the world and about what mattered. And this is your way of carrying on his tradition. And you're doing it. And the fact is, there's no way that in her article, where Esty deals with comedians mostly, and where all this stuff happens, that she could ever capture the feeling of an oral history of Manny,

which someone should also do. He's a remarkable man who deserves a big story about him. But, of course, sitting where you're sitting, oh my God, this was my dad who built this place out of nothing and believed in Bill Grunfest's dream and then made it his own. There's no way that an oral history designed for the readers of a general interest magazine like Vanity Fair are going to focus on an Israeli man who's passed away and isn't here anymore.

It's not possible. So she could only honor your father by singing the praises of this club that's now your masterpiece. And by the way, I appreciate your decision. That was very nice. He's our favorite guest. Thank you, Brian. Thank you, Brian.

Now listen, I think that everybody's trying to gloss over this. What I told, and I didn't want to talk about it. The article is great for the club, and you have a way of pulling rabbits out of hats, and I admire you for that. And I meant what I said in our text conversation. You're still welcome here,

and everything I said, I'm very straightforward. But I also said in that text conversation that if my father were alive, you're lucky he's not alive, because he would have hit the ceiling. Yeah, but it would have been you're lucky he's not alive because he would have hit the ceiling. Yeah, but it would have been

a different article if he was alive. It would have been different. I would have loved to talk to him. It would have been completely different. And in the past 10 years of the Comedy Cellar,

he has not been present. Quite frankly, Dan, I think you're just being argumentative. I really do think you are just being argumentative because unless you, you can say one thing.

I don't think the oral history of the comedy seller needs to actually indicate what really happened. If that's your position, then you can say that. But you as well as anybody knows that the dominant figure in this place was my

father. And that the article does not indicate that. Nick, he's getting DePaul spoke to that. Somebody might have, but the reader does not indicate that. Nick, DePaul spoke to that. Somebody might have, but the reader does not. So it's as if you want to do a story, an oral

history of the K-Date administration. You're talking over each other. No, no. I think you were just being argumentative. That's not how I see it. She's getting quotes from comics. This is what they spoke of. No, I don't know.

And a lot of these comics weren't here when your father was here. Most of them were. Or they were. The overwhelming number were. Rachel Feinstein was barely working here. Let me say, and Ray is a perfect example. First of all, just because Ray invited me and Ava and Esty and flew us out to his wedding. Mark Maron spoke of your father?

No one told me that. I know, but I'm just saying. But the fact is that Ray and my father, and Esty is everything that everybody says she is. Ray and my father had a very, very close and special relationship. There is no way that Ray would tell you that even when the way you guys cut out that quote was all Essie. In that context,

it makes more sense about the gatekeeper who puts you on a stage. But the way you guys cut it, it's as if that she the owner is not even important to the club. I don't think so. Well, if you cut out one sentence and say, listen, she's not the owner, but she might as well be. It's all her. And you don't think so. Well, if you cut out one sentence and say, listen, she's not the owner,

but she might as well be, it's all her. And you don't put any context in that. No, there is no way that someone's not going to think that the owner, that one of the biggest stars

in the world is saying that the actual owner of the club was irrelevant. That's the plain meaning of those words. No, there's no, he did not say irrelevant. If it's all somebody, it's nothing of...

You're getting as crazy as I was getting when you said all these comics are great. Am I being crazy? You're being crazy, yeah. Because it's a fun piece. You know what, Dan? It's a fun piece and it's my love letter. You're not supposed to talk when other people are talking. I started talking and she interrupted me.

She's the guest. You know what? We have a great friendship, Noma, and this fucking podcast is ruining our friendship and I don't think it can continue with us both hosting. This podcast is not big enough for the both of us. You have downgraded me from fucking co-host to fucking your fucking sidekick

and that doesn't work for me. Sorry. You told me when we started this that most people, comics, wouldn't do anything with this opportunity but some people would take it and run with it. You don't allow me to take it and run with it because you run it the way you want and it doesn't work for me. I can only say that if we were talking about a subject

which regarded your parents and that you were upset about, I would let you speak. Go ahead, Jessica. You've been speaking the whole time. We invited Brian. I invited Brian. It was Kristen's idea.

You took the whole fucking conversation. I actually left the table for 10 minutes. Because of unforeseen circumstances. Let's not fight. Go ahead, Jessica. I'm just saying, I love you, I love our friendship, but this podcast is not good for our friendship. Here's my larger point,

is that I have over 65 pages of interviews, and I wanted to publish them all, and that was the whole idea when I started to put together this article. I talked to an editor at HarperCollins. I talked to an editor at HarperCollins. I talked to an editor at Simon Schuster. I said, hey, you know, I would love to do an oral history project,

whether it be an audio book or a book. I really want to do an audio book and hear these stories, these great stories that come from the seller. And the editor at HarperCollins said to me, hey, you know what you should do? You should write an article. Start with that and see how that goes

and see how much work that is and see if you could pull that off, and then we'll talk. There's so much more that I wanted to include. There's so much. I wanted to include all of it. I know you love the place. It's not about it, but really, but I love all of it, and I'm biased because the things that I find fascinating are not interesting to some other people.

I hear what you're saying, and I know your intentions were pure, find fascinating are not interesting to some other people. I hear what you're saying, and I know your intentions were pure, and I am not upset about the article. I think the article is great for the club, and I don't want to appear ungracious or ungrateful or arrogant or anything. I reacted to it the way I react to it. I can't help it. It's beyond my control to react any other way and when you asked me about it

I had a choice of telling you something that wasn't true or telling you how I felt so I told you how I felt

and what else can I do and I can't apologize for telling you how I felt especially because I feel that I can I can show good objective grounds

for why anybody who loves his father would feel that way. And that's about it. That's all I have to say about it. And I appreciate that. And that's one reason why I love this club so much, because it's an honest place. All the comedy you see downstairs, you know, no one's holding back. You know, this is a great place for conversations. So thanks for...

Now, what about the issue of retweeting the article? Oh, yeah. Because Jessica was upset. She told me that the seller did not retweet the article, and she told me that, and I was shocked. I figured it was an oversight, and that will get done soon. Now, of course, I have more insight after hearing you speak of why I'm assuming you did not retweet the article

at the Comedy Cellar Twitter page. I didn't retweet the article. I didn't say not to retweet it. I told Liz I want to talk to her about it first because there was another comic who was very upset about the article who wasn't included. This is a famous person? No, but somebody quite important.

Is this Dan Natterman? I'm not going to say. I'm kidding. It wasn't me. No. Although I did wonder for a second why it wasn't. And I was wondering whether I wanted to write something of my own, not attacking you, just feeling what I felt had been left out of the article to accompany the tweet. And that's what I told Liz.

And, you know, the day's gotten away from me. Well, remember, you know... If it makes you feel... I don't think this was designed to be a comprehensive... It's being tweeted all over the place. We don't have that many followers. Daily News is going to write about it. Paper Magazine is going to write about it. Every comedy blog, Huffington Post has written about it.

Norton, this morning on Sirius, he shouted it out. Colin Quinn. I really think the biggest problem with this is the title. Because I think that that's really what's bothering me. I think it should not have been called an oral history of the comedy cellar. Part one. How about that? How about if it was part one? It's not a comprehensive history.

It's not a comprehensive. It's not designed to be. One second. A history does not involve the opinions of only one group of people who are involved in that history. And this only has quotes from comedians for obvious, I mean, for readership reasons, I get it. But I see what's bothering you about it, but I think you're, there's a mismatch there. Has anyone here ever written for a magazine? No, that's what I'm saying.

I understand why this has to look the way that it looks. I interviewed over 50 people for this article. Jessica, with all due respect, and I'm not trying to suppress the article. I'm having you on the show. And I appreciate that. And I spoke about it before you came on. Did I say anything negative about the article

before she came on here? Nope. No. Nobody cares about the problems that magazine writers go through, nor should they. People are being written about and they care that they're being written about fairly and with balance and perspective. Nobody's going to say, well, but she's hard to be a magazine writer, so she can write whatever she wants about me or my subject.

Nobody cares. It's none of my concern what your problems are, although it's relevant to me only in the sense that I believe you when you're saying that your heart was pure. And, of course, that does matter because I thought you were, if you thought you were doing it on purpose, I wouldn't say you're still welcome here. I know.

I think I'm seeing this exactly for what it was. I get what you were, if you thought you were doing it on purpose, I wouldn't say you're still welcome here. I know. I think I'm seeing this exactly for what it was. I get what you were doing. I just can't be happy with the impression that it leaves. And that's it. You know, I'm not. Isn't your beef with the comics that you quoted? I mean, Ray Romano said Esty. No, but even that quote from Ray is a different.

Listen, there's, I know Ray. You could ask him. If you told Ray that I said, you know, that quote reads, you have contact with him, right? You said, no, I was a little hurt because he felt like it meant that his father wasn't important. Well, first of all, you're going to get two pages from Ray saying, oh, oh, no, man, he this, man, he that, man, he that. I know he didn't mean that. I know he didn't mean it that way. The question is, why didn't you or Vanity Fair know he didn't mean it that way?

And that's what bothers me. I personally didn't read it that way. You know, when somebody says something, when somebody says a quote, you take them at the face value of the quote. But they took out that sentence and put it not in context of what he was talking about. What was he talking about that would have changed?

I don't think we misquoted him at all. I didn't say you misquoted him. I said you took it out. What did Ray Romano say? He was talking about Mitzi being the now. And he was talking about now. And also, you know, he was being nice to Esty because Esty's not the owner. And you say something, when somebody's in a lower position, you butter them up.

You say something nice. Obviously, the owner is more important. I have no problem with what Ray said. Of course, he's being nice to Esty because he's. Dan, what are you doing? I'm not criticizing Ray. I know he's not being, I know he's being nice to Esty. What I'm saying is that as the owner of the place and the son of the guy who built it,

if there's an oral history and something as auspicious as Vanity Fair magazine, I would like him to shine through since he deserves to. How the fuck can you not understand that? What did Ray say about Manny that was not included? It doesn't matter what anybody says. But if he didn't talk about him,

he didn't talk about him. The point is that in the end, someone will read this and no one will say, wow, Manny, they'll think different things. And how can I be happy about that? And why should a journalist say, yeah, I

get you, but I'm not really in this business to really give people the actual impression. And maybe the title was misleading or not a most appropriate title, but this was not designed to be a comprehensive history of the comedy. It was designed to be quotes from comics and their impressions of the comedy. These are the quotes that she got. This is just a glimpse

of the larger project. Are these roughly the quotes that you got or were is just a glimpse of the larger project. Are these roughly the quotes that you got, or were you suppressing pages and pages of quotes about Manny? You also got quotes about what you ask about. We have a ton about Manny, and that's that. I see it there. Where is it? Where is it?

Some of it did not seem fitting for this article. Where's any of it? Just that he had a comedian table? That Nick DiPaolo asked for a comedian table, and he agreed to it. That's it. That's the only thing in there. I read quite a few Manny quotes in this article.

That he told Mark Maron to go fuck himself. Or something like that. First of all, I think it's entirely unfair for you to even start to begrudge Noam his feelings on this article. You have no place whatsoever. I usually side with you, but you cannot have him Well, he feels the way he

feels. And I feel the way I feel about certain things, and Noam comes at me, and rightly so. But not in your personal way. Marina Franklin, part of what makes the Comedy Cellar gold is that it's always about comics first. Comics first. Manny believed in the craft of comedy and respected it a lot.

That's why the table says comedy seller, comedians only. Because he knew that was important, that the comics had a place. And that's in the article. That's a good one. Yeah, that's a good one. Next one, Esty. If we're busy and every table was taken, Manny would say, quote, I don't care. That table's for the comics.

We will lose business, but I don't care. We cannot sit diners there. It was a very important table, a famous table. That's what I recall. The only thing was just how he started the comedy table. John Stewart. It was art and history and music and literature and arguments, and the back table was just a great place to hang out and talk, not necessarily

about comedy, about war and destruction. It was crazy. He doesn't mention my father's name, but anyway. That's what... Listen. It is what it is. And if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Can I tell you?

I don't think you're wrong. I don't think... You're entirely wrong. And I respect your feelings. I think my father and anybody who cared about him would agree with me. I take that back. You shouldn't have to care about him. You should anybody who's objective about anybody who was here.

Like I said, I know that Ray, if he felt that that's the way, the impression that it gave, would say, oh, no, I didn't mean that at all. I couldn't be further from the truth. I know Ray. Can we have somebody else on that read the article that might? I'd like another perspective on this because I think I'm I can't imagine why you feel this way but maybe I'm insane who do you want to bring over? did anybody read the article

in Vanity Fair about the comedy seller? and would like to mention a few words about it did you read the Vanity Fair article? can I ask you a question about it on the air? this is Jim Norton everybody from Serious Raw Dogs Opie and Jimmy show this was my take on the air? This is Jim Norton, everybody, from Serious Raw Dogs Opie and Jimmy Show. This was my take on

the article. I felt that it did not properly its oral history of the comedy seller. Someone would read that and not have any idea that the main driving force behind the club was Manny. That it dismissed him. They took a quote of Ray out of context

and said, SD's not the owner but she might as well be. It's all SD. Which he didn't mean it that him. They took a quote of Ray out of context and said, Esty's not the owner, but she might as well be. It's all Esty. Which he didn't mean it that way. Yeah, of course not. He meant it with love. My father's mentioned only about creating the table. And as you know, he made every decision here. So that's why. Yeah, but I think that

if that's the truth, it wasn't an intentional thing. I didn't say it was intentional. No, no, no. One of those things is we would all talk about Manny, but I think that when that's the truth, it wasn't an intentional thing. I didn't say it was intentional. No, no, no. But one of those things is we would all talk about Manny, but I think that when you're looking at the oral history, for people who didn't know Manny or understand his impact because they weren't here, it's just like mentioning Lucian Hold of the comic strip. To the comedians, we know the difference. We understand Manny is one of the most important people I've ever known in comedy, in my career.

Well, you think you might have somebody in that article saying that. They may have said it. They may have said it, but it didn't make it and they had to edit it down. And when they're taking stuff out, they're probably not thinking that he's as important as he is because they didn't live it. Like if a comic wrote that, Manny would have been, you know, front and center. Can I ask what things were said about Manny that were not included in the article? How much was said and how much could have been different about the article if it were edited differently in terms of Manny's contribution,

given the quotes that you were given? I can't really speak to that because there was just too much. I'd have to go through the transcripts. But nothing really felt fitting for this particular article. And I will say that. Nothing just felt right. Nothing, you know, Marin went on for a long time with his whole arguments.

And I said, you know what, this is ridiculous. It's just getting boring at a certain point. I don't want to include all this anger. You know what I mean? There was lots of praise. There was lots of love. Which I did include. and I did my best. Okay. And I pushed for it.

I'm always pushing for what I want, and when you work with a publication, when you work with an editor, you have to. I'm going to say again, I know it was a labor of love. Always. I know it was good publicity for the club. You're welcome here. I didn't intend to belabor any feud with you. Everything I wrote to you is true.

I cannot take pleasure in the article because that's my father. And it doesn't relay what he actually did and that his great accomplishment here is now being written about as him as an asterisk. And that's painful for me. But, Noam, as you know, this is just a part of the larger project. So this is just a glimpse. Can I criticize you? I think at this point, you keep kind of changing this up.

What you should say is, I get you. You're right. I did. Next time, I'll try to be more. If I'm you, I'm like, you know what? I got so caught up in my article, maybe I didn't properly consider the other side. I said to them, you were tone deaf. That's how I was like, I was surprised that you were surprised.

Like a more sensitive person, less caught up would have realized, uh-oh, is he going to like this? It doesn't even mention his dad. Can I ask a question about that? Did you have final edit or did the publication? No, I don't. Part of the problem is when you submit something, and when I write articles for Time, I always want final edit. If you can get it, you can get it.

Right. But a lot of times they'll remove things. When they have names like Jon Stewart, and they can put a piece about Manny Dorman, and the editor's looking at, hmm, I have a thousand words. Do I want to put a piece about Manny Dorman, who I don't know who he is, or do I want to put another quote by Dave Chappelle

or whoever it was? Again, that's an editor's decision. I didn't get to see. I couldn't sleep. I was... But if that was the case, she would have said to me, you know what, Norm, you're right.

I was pushing for the same thing. I'm with you. You know, then it wasn't my fault. I'd be, oh, okay, Jessica. You know what? I've learned over the years as a writer, as a producer, that I have to sometimes just say, you know what? wasn't my fault okay you know what i've learned over the years as a writer as a producer that i have to sometimes just say you know what i'm happy with this and you have to can't please them all and i'm sorry that you feel that way but i couldn't sleep for a week because

i didn't know what was going on i saw the last edit and i said well it's going through copy now i didn't know what the title was gonna be i didn't even know what the headline was gonna be and i was sunday night i was sweating i was like oh, oh, Jesus Christ, what's going to happen when I wake up Monday morning? What's it going to be? And then I, you know, and then it all happened. I get it. I really do get it. I just, I told her before I came in and said, but no matter what, I reacted

to it the way I reacted to it. I can't help it. And I had a choice between either lying to her and saying it was great or telling her just how I feel. Never lie to me. But I didn't, I didn't ball her out or, I was careful to say to her, listen, I get it. We're not fighting. You can come here like you always did.

And I meant it. I really meant it. You're not persona non grata. I'm not bitter with you. I'm just telling you how I react to it. I appreciate your honesty. I always do. Don't forget too

that a lot of comedians have died since Manny too. We've lost... So much of that table is gone. It feels like he's grouped in with Dre Giraldo and with Patrice and these guys that we were a huge part of that. I had Tony.

A huge part of that, for me, experience and there's just a lot of them now are gone. It's almost really sad for me to talk about Manny because I think about that whole time. It's like, fuck man. I enjoyed it and I wish I loved it as much as I should have when it was happening.

Wish you appreciated it at the time. More, yeah. That's always the way it is. I am more of a post-Manny phenomenon ultimately in terms of I started working here when Manny was here.

That's because his last words were over my dead body. But I became more of a, touche, but I became more of a regular here in the post-Manny years. So I don't have quite those same feelings as Jim does in that regard. Yeah, it's just what your experience was. He's the only guy that could hold court with a bunch of comedians.

No one else could do that. I mean, comedians can't do that with each other. And John spoke to that a lot. He would sit down and literally talk about Palestine and subjects that anybody else would be like, shut up! And everyone listened to him. He had an amazing gift for that

and he was funny. So the comedians really loved him for that. But I don't think that that was a slight. It's almost like that would only be a slight if the person who wrote it was here and understood that from seeing it. It's almost like that would only be a slight if the person who wrote it was here and understood that from seeing it. You know, like Richie Tinkin is at the comedy,

the comic strip. And it's a big part of the comic strip. But if you wrote an article about the comic strip and only mentioned a little bit of Richie Tinkin, it wouldn't bother me because he didn't have an impact on me personally. That would only bother me is if everything was included that the comedian said and they didn't talk about Manny

or mention him. Then I'd be like, what the fuck? But they did talk about him and it got cut out. But some of it got cut out. I don't know exactly how much there was. We got to move on. As Jessica said, Mark Maron spoke about him but Mark has a lot of anger. I just internally realized that this is the point

where people are like, enough of this already. I'm not so sure about that. Anyway, we're way over time. Thank you for having me. Jessica Pilot in Vanity Fair. It is an oral history of the comedy cellar and everything in there is true and it has been

a wonderful history. Jessica hopes to write a book someday and we will give her full cooperation on that book. All right, that's it. Jim, thank you. Love you guys.

Steve, Dan, you want to say you have a Twitter, Jessica? Oh yeah, at JessicaPilot212. Also follow my Instagram,

JessicaPilot, because it's super fun and weird. Okay, Dan? I would just say that tempers flared during this episode. Oh, yeah.

And I don't believe that this is very good for Noam and my friendship, although we do seem to have an ability after the show is over to just kind of ignore that everything happened. I'm not mad at you. Why are you guys yelling at each other? I heard yelling.

Well, it's the usual. I remember screaming. It's the usual argument is that who the hell is in charge and Noam has his vision for the show and I have mine and those visions are kind of contradictory and, you know, Is that who the hell is in charge? And Noam has his vision for the show and I have mine. And those visions are kind of contradictory.

And, you know, Noam sees me as the sidekick who speaks when spoken to. And I see myself as the co-host or even, dare I say it, the actual host. But Noam doesn't see it that way. I do see it that way. Go ahead. You want to talk about this now or next week? I think sometimes you're like that, but you're not maybe as fluid as I am at keeping the guest talking. You talk yourself, and that's a problem. And I sometimes cut in because you're Brian Koppelman there. You don't cut in.

You take over. Because you're not interviewing the guest. You're using him to talk about yourself. I oftentimes will say a word or two about myself because I like to keep this whole thing in a nice, cohesive package with themes that are continual, that we look at our lives as comedians and we track them from week to week. That gives continuity

and that makes this like a reality show. And that distinguishes us from many of the other comedy podcasts. I've been involved with these difficult partnerships. I understand. I understand. I understand. For hours a day, you've got to talk sometimes when you're mad at each other or whatever. Sometimes you've got to realize that you just perform differently.

And you've got to, instead of both fighting for one light, it sounds corny, but you've got to realize that there's two spotlights, and it's just a way to kind of make them coexist, because when you're fighting it out for one, eventually it can't last that. Especially if you're only talking for an hour a week. You know, you perform differently.

It's okay. You're you, you're you, and it doesn't have to be a boss. You know? We're 25 minutes over and we're going to have

a hell of an editing time. Well, but I think well worth the extra time spent. I don't disagree, Dan. I think that, I mean, I think that with the last as I look at this show, the last half hour is exactly

what this show needs to be. Dan, I love you. We have to sign off. We have to. Good night, everybody.