The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Carmen Lynch, Sheba Mason, and Anna North

Episode Date: January 26, 2018

Carmen Lynch is a New York City-based standup comedian who performs regularly at the Comedy Cellar. Her recent album, "Dance Like You Don't Need the Money," may be found on SiriusXM and Amazon. Sheba Mason is a standup comedian and daughter of legendary comedian Jackie Mason. Anna North is a senior reporter at Vox. She previously worked as a writer and editor at the New York Times, Salon, Buzzfeed, and Jezebel. She is the author of two novels, American Pacifica and The Life and Death of Sophie Stark. She is the author of the recent Vox story, "The Aziz Ansari story is ordinary. That's why we have to talk about it."

You're listening to The Comedy Cellar, live from the table on the Riotcast Network, riotcast.com. Good evening, everybody. Welcome to The Comedy Cellar show here on Sirius XM Channel 99. My name is Noam Dorman. I'm the owner of The Comedy Cellar. We're at the back table of The Comedy Cellar, of course, as always, with Mr. Dan Natterman. And we have three guests today. Ms. Sheba Mason, who is a working comic with a famous last name.

But I've never seen her perform. But I've heard about her for a long time. Carmen Lynch, who's a regular here at the Comedy Cellar who won the award for Sirius's... What did you win? They voted it Best Al. Oh, that thing. You know, best album of 2017.

Best comedy album, obviously. Yes. Not better than like Adele's. Best R&B. I sing, too. No. Comedy. Okay.

And Anna North is a senior reporter at Vox.com. She previously worked as a writer and editor at the New York Times, Salon, BuzzFeed, and Jezebel. She's the author of two... Can't hold a job. She's the author of two novels, American Pacifica and The Life and Death of Sophie Stark. She is the author of the recent Vox story, The Aziz Ansari Story is Ordinary.

That's why we have to talk about it. And that's why we have you here, because we want to talk about it. But,'s why we have you here, because we want to talk about it. But, Noam, before we get to any of that, our regular listeners know that Noam was not here last week. And I believe I mentioned he was in Sin City, Las Vegas, I guess to see what's going on with the new Comedy Cellar Vegas room. Yes.

Is everybody aware that the Comedy Cellar is opening up in Vegas? No. April 4th, April 4th. April 4th? Wow. Is that a hard date? Well, if nothing goes wrong with the inspection process

and everything, yeah, April 4th. So you went out there just to check it out? How did you find everything? It's all right. I took a left at Greenland. That's George Harrison

or something? I think it was John Lennon. John Lennon. How'd you find New York? It's okay. It's a big daunting thing because I don't know anything about opening in Vegas.

I don't know anything about advertising there. I don't know anything about anything there, but the room is beautiful and whatever. The Dye's cast. I had thought,

let me just check my calendar to see if I'm open opening weekend. We're boring Anna. She wants to talk about Aziz. Well, get to it. Okay. This is where people

love this shit. You know, we have time for everything. We're boring Anna. She wants to talk about disease. Well, get to it. People love this shit. We have time for everything. We're also going to talk about your relationship, Sheba's relationship with her father, I believe. George Mason? No, he's a fine actor.

You said April 4th, did you? Yes. Oh, I am around that week. Yes. I don't know if you... Oh, I am around that week. Now, I don't know if you want to use me as a guest, but as a comic, but I thought it might be fun to go out there and do a podcast out there.

Okay, Dan. You know, I thought that might be a fun idea. That'd be a great idea. Put that in your tickler file. Way to put Noam on the spot, like on the podcast. Noam and I have a relationship. Don't worry about Noam. He can say no.

Noam's not like... Noam, who do you want to open on April 4th? I don't know. I can't say these things out loud. Do you want big names, or do you want to keep it small and discreet? I have... I don't know.

Okay. Because some people open up a new room, they get big names in. They pay a lot of money To get a big splash go But Dan is available I think maybe I mainly want to Just do the podcast

This is what I think I think it's better To open two or three weeks With just mere mortals Not small names Just regular like The Dan Adderons The regular mortals

And then maybe a month in Once we know Like if things are Going to go wrong Let them go wrong When you're performing And then when we really get the kinks out of it, then we can ask, like, you know,

the Tom Papas or whatever. Anyhow. Now, can we talk about Aziz? You want to talk about Aziz or you want to go to Sheba first? It's up to you. You're the head dude. I want to talk about Aziz. I can't help it. We talked about Aziz last week. You weren't here. We'll talk about him again. Obviously, it's a big story.

Aziz Ansari. Now, can you, Anna, you take Grace is the pseudonym for the woman who told the Aziz Ansari story. And you are sympathetic to her side of the story, correct? You got to start right in the mic. Right in the mic.

All right. Here I am. I'm in the mic? Is that good? Yeah. All right. Nice. Anna North. Hey. Should I lower it for you? Right in the mic. All right. Here I am. I'm in the mic? Is that good? Yeah. All right. Nice. Anna North. Hey. Should I lower it for you? I can lower it. Okay. All right.

There we go. That's my face, more or less. Okay. Yeah, so I don't know if there are sides, per se. I mean, Ansari has made a statement where he didn't really deny that an encounter occurred. He said that he had apologized to her. We don't know what kinds of conversations that they've had through back channels, so I'm not sure we should necessarily be thinking of them

as enemies, but certainly when I read her account, I was like, oh, I think a lot of women have been there. Okay. With me, they certainly have. Why are you looking at me like that, Carmen? No, I'm just listening and processing this, because I thought it was a really good article. I thought you made very good points. And his article. Yeah. What point did you, what's your takeaway point I thought it was a really good article. I thought you made very good points.

And his article. Yeah. What's your takeaway point that you thought was a good point? Well, a lot of these situations are clearly not Harvey Weinstein, but they're just bad dates, too. And a lot of young, young women think that men can read their minds. And we all go through that. I mean, I'm not saying it's right,

but it's part of growing up where you just assume a man can understand what you're thinking, and you feel too embarrassed or scared to say no. Well, this is what I'm hearing. I'm hearing a lot about women being scared to say no. That hasn't been my experience with women. They seem to be very clear.

Beat it. But apparently, according to what I've read, women do have a difficult time saying no, at least if you're somebody that they're really into and they don't want to upset you. She even wanted to say something. How old was the girl? I think she was 22, 23.

That's really young. Very young. Well, another point, that is an adult. Yeah, but naive. It's not a child. You can be 22, very young. Well, another point, that is an adult. Yeah, but naive. It's not a child. You can be 22 and very naive. I have come to the conclusion on all this that unless it's coerced,

I think that we should not be spending our time on it. And the analogy I gave last, because I thought about it every which way. It was like if my daughter was working at a restaurant, I said, that's one of my greatest hits. And the comedian, and the manager was giving her a back rub, and she didn't want his freaking hands on her,

but she's afraid to say something. And she came home. I would march into that restaurant. You get your fucking hands off my daughter. But if she said, I was hanging out with Louis C.K., we were drinking and smoking pot, and we were having a great time, and then he said, hey, you want to go up to my

hotel room? And it was 2 in the morning. And I went up to his hotel room and then he asked me if he could masturbate in front of me. I'd be like, sweetheart, that's what happens at 2 in the morning when you're with a dude drinking and smoking. Go up to his hotel room. You're going to have... Did he block the door? Did he put his hands on you? Did he do anything?

No, dad. He just upset me. You're going to have to learn to navigate life. I'll never be able to stop that. And that's the way I feel. So if there's no coercion, then we have to teach. And I think it's, I know you want to get into it, but I think we're gutting feminism. Because let me tell you something. I've been on a date where the woman moved faster to the bedroom than I wanted to.

I've been on a date where a woman took my hand and put it in her crotch. I've been on dates where I slept with the woman because I didn't want to hurt her feelings. Wow, you really get her out. Every guy has. Every guy. It's hard to say no to a woman because, you know, they assume that a man has to want to have sex. So if you don't want to have sex with a woman, it can be very insulting to her. At least that's what guys feel.

So all these things that the woman is describing as to why she would go through with it. She also went down on him twice. But if you want to consider men and women equals, then you just have to not do that if you weren't coerced. But if you don't want to consider men and women equals, then yes. And go ahead.

Sure, yeah. So what I would ask, so, you know, you talked about, like, if you had a daughter, you know, she's in that situation. What about, like, your son, right? So if you're talking to your son about how he should behave with women and you're talking to your son about, like, how should he communicate, you know, what kinds of things should he do on a date. What do you say to him? Don't get her pregnant.

No, no. Be a gentleman, of course. Be a gentleman. Yeah, be a gentleman. Always, always. And try to make sure you don't come on too strong and try to read people. But, you know, not everybody is good at reading people,

and this is something that I think people are born with. But it also becomes, the story she describes, there's so many things, like signposts there. One has been pointed out, complaining about the color wine was weird. Then when she says,

and I said to her, you guys are all alike, meaning it's kind of like a groundhog day for her. God forbid you should say out loud, some women might, maybe this is an issue like she's finding herself being upset with men over and over and over again.

She did perform, as soon as they got there, took her clothes off, performed oral sex. That is a stunning contrary signal. So we think he should have read this signal that she, this mind reading signal.

He was supposed to read that her lips went cold at some point. And we don't, but ignore the fact that she gave him oral sex. I mean, here's the signal that I thought was like. We have no base. We should know about this. He shouldn't be wholly humiliated. And none of us should have an opinion on this. We don't know what went on there.

Anna, you say what? But I do have an opinion. Go ahead. Well, you shouldn't. Good day, sir. All right. I'm out. Peace out. Anna, you say what? But I do have an opinion. Go ahead. Well, you shouldn't. Good day, sir. All right. I'm out. Peace out. No, I'm staying. Yeah, so I thought there's a part in that account

and I agree with you. I think there's some details that I probably, if I was the reporter here, I wouldn't necessarily put in. I don't know about that wine thing. I don't know why that was there. Because she said it. Okay, but I'm taking notes and I'm not always putting in everything everybody says. However, there's this point that seems like a real red flag to me.

She goes in the bathroom. She splashes water on her face. She comes out. She says, you know, I really don't want to feel forced into anything because if I feel forced, I'm going to hate you. To me, it's like if someone says that on a date, that's a real red flag. I agree with you. Yes. Now, who remembers well?

Okay, so do we agree that... If that's what was said, yes. Well, he didn't deny it. Right? I mean, we don't know that was what was said, but he also didn't deny it. Right up to that point in the story. Or let me put it another way.

Without that line in the story, would you say this is just, like, this is ridiculous? Like, is that the only thing in the story that makes you say, wait a second, that is something somebody should have keyed in on? There's two moments. There's two, like, big moments for me. There's that, and then there's another time where he says, like, okay, okay, we can chill.

And she says, like, okay, thanks, like, let's chill. And they're chilling for a minute, and then he's, like, taking her pants off again. And, again, like, nobody's saying this is Weinstein level, but, like, I don't mind the description of it as a bad date. Because I just think this is a good opportunity to talk about how can people have fewer bad dates. Well, let this be a lesson to the young ladies out there in Hollywood. Unless you are a 10, Aziz ain't making you his girl. You know, but she probably thought that in her mind. Be respectful to her too, because you don't know what she thought.

Very respectful. My guess is, without knowing for sure, that in her mind she had visions of the red carpet with Aziz as Aziz's girlfriend. You know, people.com saying, who's the mysterious lady on Aziz's arms? Inquiring minds want to know. You know, a little birdie told us that Aziz and this new, you know, actress or whoever she was, you know,

she imagined all of this in her mind. Why didn't she leave at any point? Well, we'll get to that. I'm just saying, in her head, in her cabeza, she's going to be

in People.com and is there even a People magazine anymore? Yeah, yeah. I don't want to seem like an old guy saying she'll be in the,

you know, in the paper. But she wanted that. He just wanted sex, which of course is oftentimes a woman will want more. That's my guess.

But a lot of times that happens. Men want sex even with people who aren't celebrities. Maybe he's used to getting sex. Who knows? Because he's a celebrity, you know, and he hasn't encountered this in a while. I'm sure that Aziz has...

There's three Azizes. Just like there's three every men. There's I really love her, Aziz. There's I want to get laid, Aziz. And then there's get this skank out of here, Aziz. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm only two people. Go ahead.

And Aziz was operating on the second Aziz, the one where he just wanted to get laid. I have no doubt that Aziz can be the most charming, delightful, wonderful man if it was, and I think I mentioned last week, just throwing a name out there, Scarlett Johansson, and he was out with her, you know, he would have said, well, let's take a walk. What a beautiful night. You know, the moon in your eyes. And, you know, I don't want to rush into anything. I take you back home, but I really feel special. He didn't do any of that.

So she got the, I just want to get laid as he. What was the quote again about? I don't want to, I don't want to feel forced. Yeah. I mean, I'm not getting it exactly right, but can you look up the exact quote?

Yeah. About, I don't want to feel forced. It's just like, or then I'll hate you. Right. Because if a woman, if a woman said that to me,

I'm trying, if I, if a woman said that to me, of course I would back off. But then the second I saw a green light again I'm just being honest I would definitely back off I wouldn't know whether that meant

like she didn't go home or was she just I've been there, I just need time I want to relax first you don't know I think that we should get off this public humiliation I'll tell you what I would have done I that we should get off this public humiliation thing. I'll tell you what I would have done.

Yeah. I would have called her an Uber. I'm not that horny, though. You see, you can't go by me. You know, I actually get off more on knowing a girl likes me than the actual set. That's my weird thing. If I know a girl's into me, I can. That, to me, is huge.

In terms of my own ego and my own... What I like. But I'm an odd bird. I'll admit it. I'm an odd bird. Here's the broader question. Should every single person... Ray Allen is calling.

Should I? No. Should every single person who has a bad date not be judged for taking it to the Internet to humiliate that person so that their great-great-grandchildren will know about it forever? You're being very optimistic about the future to think his great-great-grandchildren are even going to have the Internet. I mean, we're going to worry about nuclear war here. Presuming we get through the next three years? I'm just saying that you can put any comment. I can write a comment on a New York Times site.

Dan Adler has herpes. And literally his great-grandchildren are going to tell him, Grandpa Dan had herpes. Because everybody Googles everybody. You don't even have to be famous. That would be true if there was any shot I would have great-grandchildren. All right. I get it.

So that's really, and that's not getting talked about enough. What kind of social, I get it. So that's really, and that's not getting talked about enough. Like, what kind of social, I think there should be a big stigma against anybody going public like this.

Well, that's why sometimes it feels more like the person is doing it to get attention for themselves than it is to blame.

Well, except there's a crucial thing here, which is that the website went to her. She didn't come to the website. They found out about her

through, like, their friends or some channels. They sought her out. They're like, do you want to tell this story? She said, okay. She did not call them up. Oh, okay. So to me, that changes things. Well, she could have said, hey, hey, hey, hey, man, don't kiss and tell.

I mean, that is the rule that we have lived by for thousands of years, is you don't blab about a sexual encounter to the general public absent a legitimate crime. There's something else that she said that undercut her, I thought. She said, it took me a year or something. Did you find the quote yet? Boy, you're slow. There is Wi-Fi. It took me a year, whatever it is, but then I realized that I

was assaulted. Now, you're a reporter. What would you have said if she said that to you? If she said she was assaulted? Yeah. I would have said, thanks for talking to me. I mean, like, look, if this story had come to me, I think I would have handled it very differently,

which is not to say, you know, I'm not here to cast aspersions on Babe or whatever they did. I would not have reported the story in this way. I typically, you know, someone tells me they're assaulted, I take it seriously. Well, let me tell you what I would say. You tell me I'm wrong. Sure.

I heard the whole story she told. I'd say, assaulted? You haven't said any, you haven't described any assault. Do you think Aziz should be in jail? Is that what you're saying? What do you mean by assaulted? Like, she, and so that to me,

that colors everything else she said. Like, she, and so that to me, that colors everything else she said. Like, assaulted is a crime. She describes no fact that I can see of even a close call of a crime. And when he texted her and she refused another date,

he said, I apologize. You know, she said, I wasn't, remember he texted her after the fact? Yeah, yeah. So it's like,

and the reporter just gradually assaulted and no pushback. And we had a similar thing. We interviewed the woman who did the New York Times report on Louis C.K. Yeah. And there's a lot of stuff that went there. But I asked her, because, you know, the Gawker rumor was that Louis blocked the door.

So I said, did you ask them about the fact that Louis was supposed to block the door? Because that would be a crime. That would be very serious. That was the worst part of the rumor. She says, I asked them. And did he block the door, because that would be a crime. That would be very serious. That was the worst part of the rumor. She says, I asked them. And did he block the door? She says, no. Why didn't you publish that? She basically said she didn't think it was relevant.

In other words, she asked the question and if they had said, yeah, he blocked the door, of course they would have printed it. But the idea of printing the fact, anything that would exculpate Louis, even though this rumor was known by everybody, she wasn't interested in that. And that's not journalism to me.

And she said other stuff is similar. She had an agenda. They had a narrative they wanted. And any fact which came out, which a reason was, well, on the one hand, but on the other hand, there wasn't anything on the other hand they left out of the story. And the same thing with this babe thing. Any question that a reasonable, if my daughter came home and said, he assaulted me. I'd say, what do you mean?

How did he assault you? No, reporter can't even ask the most basic questions. And that's why I think there really is going to be a backlash about this stuff. And I'll tell you something else. What people are saying in private, even though we're saying this on the radio, is nothing to do with what people are saying in public. In public, everybody's doing a hostage video. But privately, everybody is thinking the way I'm thinking, that this is not real life.

People are saying the same things to me in private, too. And I think there's already a backlash. We're already seeing it. Look, I think a conversation about... All right, go ahead. You know, yeah, like, people, like, plenty of people disagree super vehemently about this. And, of course, that's normal, because this is, like, plenty of people disagree super vehemently about this. And, of course, that's normal because this is, like, this is serious stuff.

This is hard stuff. We've never really talked about it before. People are going to fight. And, ultimately, I think, like, if we're going to argue about this, I think that's great. You know, get it out in the open. Lance that boil, man. Well, I agree that there is a conversation to be had, at least about how men and women communicate. There is a lot of talk, as Carmen mentioned, about women not wanting to say no or feeling bad.

This woman didn't leave. I mean, there's a conversation we can have. Why not? Should women be socialized differently? Sheba Mason. Now, you brought that up. Why didn't she leave? Of course, everybody's talking about that.

That's the big question. Have you ever been in a situation where you're like, I don't really like this guy, but at the same time I don't want to insult him, or for some reason you didn't just get up and leave? Well, you know how many times I've been back to a guy's apartment if I didn't want to sleep with him? One time. And I learned that

one time that I'm not even going to go to his apartment if I don't want to sleep with him. What happened that one time? He wanted to, you know, he wanted to do something, and I, you know, I didn't. And I left. And you left. I left. He didn't force me. He just tried.

Can't blame a guy for trying. Now, we live in New York City. And I left. I just said, no, I'm sorry. And I just, you know, I ran out. And I didn't care if he liked it, and I didn't care if he didn't. Is that, you know. Anna North, is that something we should tell our daughters? I don't have a daughter, you know. Anna North, is that something

we should tell our daughters? I don't have a daughter but know him as a daughter. Just don't go to the dude's apartment at all. I mean, that seems like

perhaps too strange in a rule. I don't know, knowing what I know now, if I'm not interested in a guy and he invites me back to his place

and we're alone, unless it's a group situation, I'm not going because I know that that's probably what will ensue is he might try to do something. Otherwise, why is he asking me alone late at night? Yeah, of course, if it's like you're a good friend. No, I'm not going because I know that that's probably what will ensue is he might try to do something.

Otherwise, why is he asking me alone late at night? Yeah, of course, if it's like your good friend. No, I mean, if it's a guy that you've liked for a while and nothing's ever happened, I mean, he's probably, you know, he gets that it's moving slowly and you guys are, but if it feels like a one night stand, which kind of feels like what this was, I think you'd just assume if he asked you upstairs.

Well, then we took him out to a nice dinner, you know? I don't know. I think there were some signals going both ways. But what else is the point? Why would you go to his apartment? What else are you doing at that point? Watch Black Mirror. Maybe she wants to make out a little bit.

Maybe she doesn't want to go all the way with him. I don't know. It's just not high school to me anymore. What if the Jewish girl, they move slower than we do. What if she just wants to, as Anna said, just wants to make out, maybe do a little something, but not go all the way? Should we tell our daughters,

unless you want to go all the way, don't get off the boat? No. It's a line from Apocalypse Now. If you are with a guy that you're going to be afraid to say no to, you do not go up there. You have to feel. That's what I'm saying. You have to feel that you know the guy and that you can, that you're not worried.

You want to make out, do it outside, do it in his car. I would not put myself in that position of going to a man's apartment where there's a bedroom, where there's a couch, where I'm vulnerable. If I really didn't want to sleep with him, I just wouldn't go. I would say goodnight. I'm sorry. That's it. And this is all totally valid. I think we can talk about, like, what we should teach young women.

But, like, the fact is, like, we talk all the time. I mean, I brought this up earlier. We talk all the time about what we should teach our daughters. Fair enough, fair enough. We don't talk that much about what we're going to teach our sons. Like, what should you do if you invite a girl to her apartment? To your apartment? What would you teach your son? What would I teach my son? I think I would teach him, you know,

like, look, you know, the first, the very first thing I would teach him, like, when it comes to sex, don't think about, don't think about, like, trying to be a big man. Don't think about what people expect of you. Think about what you actually want. That's something I would teach to men and women. And I don't think boys or girls are getting that message. And there's a lot of men trying to live up to what they think a man does, women trying to live up to what they think a woman should do. I think that stuff is also toxic.

And then I would say, you know, think also about what your partner wants. Are you thinking about whether they're having fun? Think about that equally as much as yourself. Please tell that to my wife. I'll tell you this much. As a performer, and I can't speak for all of us, as a performer, I care very deeply

that the other individual has a good time because that's how I'm trained, you know, to think of the audience, if you will. So it's very important. Think of the audience

as a great standard. I like it. That's important to me. Now, Noam's also, he's a musician and a fine one. I just, I feel like if Nudity occurs

Go ahead Chiba You say what I mean you're nude With a man And he's nude And you're giving him A blowjob I mean like

Don't get nude With a man In his apartment Yeah but she's I mean I think You have I mean I'm not It's so bizarre

That she gave him A blowjob She's 22 It so makes the story tough You know Yeah I mean First of all I don't think she should Have gone bizarre that she gave him a... She's 22. It so makes the story tough, you know? Yeah. I mean, first of all, I don't think she should have gone upstairs,

like you said. Yeah. But also, she's 22. I mean, I feel like... What would a 22-year-old Carmen Lynch have done? Oh, I would have been so clueless. Like, I would have been like... But I would have left,

but I would have made up some excuse because I was like... I would have made up an excuse, too. I would have been like, I just got a really important phone call from my parents. My dad is sick. Like, that's who I was. I wasn't like, I don't want to do this. Like, now I would, made up an excuse to. I would have been like, I just got a really important phone call from my parents. My dad is sick. Like, that's who I was.

I wasn't like, I don't want to do this. Like, now I would, you know, clearly I would do that. But back then, when I was 22, no. I was too innocent. I was naive. I'd still make up an excuse. Yeah, exactly. I feel bad for women in suburban situations that were driven.

It's a whole different thing. Because in New York, you could just go out on the street and get a cab home. But you have to do the additional step of asking the guy to drive you home. That's got to be a nightmare. Or calling a cab in a town where there's no... Well, not every town has Uber. But it's an additional step. As opposed to just walking out the door and saying taxi.

I would imagine that as an additional obstacle. Were they in L.A.? They were in New York, I believe. I just feel so bad for Aziz. I think it's terrible what happened obstacle. Were they in L.A.? They were in New York, I believe. I just feel so bad for Aziz. I think it's terrible what happened there. I don't think it's right at all. It's killing me. I don't feel horrible for Aziz.

You should. The worst that anybody can hang around his neck is that he misread her signals in the context of receiving oral sex. I mean, I think what happened, I think you guys probably agree, she was probably into it at some point. Maybe he was too good. She turned him off. I mean, I think what happened, I think you guys probably agree, she was probably into it at some point. Maybe he was too good. She turned him off.

I mean, he turned her off. At some point, she got turned off. And that's happened, and whatever. And now, for the rest of his life, this has got to be like this cloud over him. You exaggerate. People have read and analyzed the situation.

Most people are on Aziz's side. I agree. Those who aren't on Aziz's side are... When I say on Aziz's side, I mean they don't condemn Aziz. Even if they think he's not quite a gentleman, which, you know, every man is capable of not being a gentleman. I mean, his TV shows are all still on the air, so clearly I feel like...

Let's take the pity party for Aziz and tone it down a little bit and move the sympathy for where it really belongs. Those of us laboring in obscurity. Those of us whose talent is not being recognized. Just stick your fingers in somebody's mouth. I love the claw. Aziz is

young, rich, with a villa in Italy. Oh, Dan, you're so Jewish. Anna, I want your address. Sympathy is not the first thing on my mind. I do think he, this was, I am on his side insofar as I don't think he did anything criminal or even. Wrong at all. He's going to be fine. I think everything's going to be fine.

And he will be fine. I would find it very embarrassing. Anyway, Anna, I would like to put something, a bug in your ear about how journalists ought to handle this thing. Okay. Because they don't do this. When these stories happen, the reporters need to ask them, why didn't you leave? Were you scared? Did he do anything threatening?

Did he do anything? We need to, and if you don't ask those questions, then they should not be publishing that story because it's just a smear. Because what happens is after the fact, commentators overlay onto the story, well, women are scared to leave. You don't know if she was scared to leave. I'll tell you why she didn't leave in my estimation. Why? She was holding out hope that Aziz would all of a sudden become nice and take her to the next Golden Globe party. Whatever. We don't know the reason.

That is my guess as to the reason. She was like saying, okay, he's a little bit of a pig, but let me give him one more shot because this might work out. I really do like him and Master of None is my favorite show and I love his bit about, you know,

how women have to do all the work with contraception and he's so cute. Hold on. I think you like him. The political feminist movement that women have been treated bad for many, many years and all women should be believed in all that stuff needs to be dropped when you're a journalist. And you've got to get the facts.

And you've got to be contrary and prosecutorial. That's the only way. Because people will spin. Like I said, nobody gives a fair shake to somebody they have a grudge against. Even if the essence of their grudge is correct, they always spin it. They always exaggerate it. If I have a customer, to use a really banal example, I told somebody this. If I have a customer who says, I've been waiting half an hour for a borscht.

I go over there, I'm sure they have been waiting too long for the borscht, but I'm sure it's also 20 minutes. Meaning there is that urge to always, you're gonna, you don't want to make a half-assed attack at somebody, so you spin it, and you need the reporter to push back, and they don't do that.

They're solicitous of these people, and they're killing people's reputations. So you know the journalistic saying, if your mother says she loves you, check it out? Yeah. You know that phrase? Exactly. They don't do that with these women. But trust me, Jodi Kantor is doing that.

Is Jodi Kantor there? Jodi Kantor is the woman you had on the show. Or no, you had someone else who did it about Louis C.K. Melina Rizek. No, she did not do that. Jodi Kantor did the story about Weinstein. Yeah. Okay? And the reason that I say that these New York Times reporters are calling their mother to check out if she loves them,

is they don't want to get sued. So trust me, people are doing a lot of due diligence here. And also, I will tell you, a lot of times we're asking, were you scared? How were you feeling in that moment? And sometimes when you read those accounts, you'll see the person say, you know, like, maybe, no, he wasn't blocking the door, but I knew if I left, I was going to get fired the next day. But fine, then quote her saying that.

In that Louis story, there was nothing like that. When I asked her, I said, when they went up to his room, they were drunk in the middle of the night, and he asked, could he take out his dick, and they began to laugh. Is it possible that he took that laugh in that context as, sure, go ahead.

Her answer was, this is a reporter. They did not consent. I said, okay, I know they didn't consent, but is it possible that he, there's a misunderstanding. Is it possible that he took it as consent? She goes, they did not consent. This is her answer. I said, okay, okay. So then afterwards, so then he starts to take off his clothes.

And that goes on for minutes. Minutes is a long time. And they're laughing and screaming, of course, laughing and screaming for minutes, which is hard to picture what that is. I said, did they once in those minutes say, wait, or no, or you got the wrong idea, or anything to indicate to him that they didn't want him to take off his clothes? Her answer was, do you mean did they stop not consenting? This is a reporter.

I think that's a legit answer. No, that's not a legit answer. The answer is, I didn't ask them, or I did ask them, and they didn't say anything like that. And the next question is, did you ask them why they didn't say anything? They said because they were in a panic. They said because they were scared. Something. So what she did

was she offered this freeze or friend psychological thing, which I've looked up since then, and I'm not totally sold on it in that context, but she overlaid it as an explanation on their behavior retroactively without a single quote or anything that she reported that they said

to indicate that that's why they didn't do it. We're not here to put her on trial. We're talking to the lovely Anna North. Bring her back. You've got to bring her back and let her answer for herself. At the time, I was really afraid. At the time, it's a little bit easier to talk about this now because a few people just talk about a backlash. Even

Mika Brzezinski is talking about it. At the time, I was so tongue-tied not to argue with her because I was afraid of getting boycotted. So you were saying that you were too afraid to speak up? I was afraid to challenge the reporter to, like I'm doing now. Now I would feel on stronger ground now that it's kind of like the issue. At that time, the issue that this could go too far was being commonly rejected. Now I think with disease and a few other things, people realize, oh, you know what?

We do need to have some rules on all this because it can get spin out of control. And now I would feel more confident to ask her tough questions. But you could listen to the interview. She said, did they stop not consenting? Like, did they stop doing a negative? When any normal person would say, for minutes, they were just screaming and laughing. I said, I think, like, if I was filming the movie, I wouldn't even know how to film that. It wouldn't be believable for minutes.

Ha, ha, hoo, ha, ha. Without ever saying no. It's such a reflex to say no or stop or fuck you. There's two girls and they never said they were scared. By the way, if you listen to these girls and their podcast, all it is is about fucking and cunts and masturbating.

It's the most, like two hours of just the most dirty sex talk I've ever heard. Which is not to say that they couldn't be scared or whatever it is, but they weren't, like, delicate flowers about sex. Sure, but you know as well as anybody does, if somebody does comedy about sex, it doesn't mean they want somebody to come masturbate in front of them. No, but I'm saying, oh, she just had to ask them. Why didn't you say no? I just want to hear them say, because I was scared. And then I say, oh, maybe he's scared. You know, I'm not soft on sexual predators at all.

But I am always bothered when somebody comes back, you know, 13, 14 years later. I made a joke. Like, imagine a thing where Louis C.K. is getting this, is masturbating in this room with his two women, and the frame freezes right before he finishes, and Rod Serling comes out, you know, submit it for your approval. This man, this redhead, freckledick loser, is about to become the most famous comic in the world.

He has no ideas. And this is the most important 45 seconds in his life. It's going to ruin him 15 years from now in the Twilight Zone. He has no way of knowing that that moment, nor did anybody, was even an important moment in anybody's life. But he did it a bunch of times. He's admitted he did it a bunch of times to a bunch of different women. Each one is different in its own way.

But that was the big headline. Right, but he gave a whole public apology that actually had its issues but was strong in certain ways where he says, he names the woman, he's like, I did this, this is all true. Yeah, well, I've apologized. As a reporter in that

thing, to convince a guy like me who is a fact-based guy who's not, I have a daughter, that's even a trite thing to say. I'm a human being. I don't want any human being to be molested or harassed or assaulted. But I do need the reporters to ask the natural questions that

we're all wondering, but seem to be off-limits now. You would ask tough questions. He robbed me. He mugged me. You'd ask, what did he do? You'd get the play-by-play. The police, before they assumed you were telling the truth or they'd want to know. In a courtroom, you'd have to answer the questions. Reporters have become advocates here rather than reporters.

And I think they're responsible for the backlash. If they would have asked these tough questions, you would not be seeing this backlash. That's what I think. Can we, well said, but can we get to Sheba? Yes. You're all excited to have Sheba on. I don't want to. Yes.

Sheba Mason. Sheba Mason. Now, was there an article recently that prompted you to ask to have Sheba on? There was something about you. I mean, you know what? I always feel funny to ask. Your father is Jackie Mason, but he denies you, correct? Well, he did page house support until I was 18, you know.

And I'm sure you probably saw that recent article on page six. I don't remember. I must have seen something. It might have been on page six. What did it say? It just said he denies his daughter. Yada, yada, yada. She's going to be in a play next week.

What is with this dude? First of all, he moralizes. Yeah. See, to me, what he does is almost worse than what Louis C.K. is doing. Oh, yes. In a way. He gets up there and pontificates on what's right and wrong and really sort of preaches. He used to be a rabbi.

And he comes from a really great family who I'm very close to. He just never really wanted children and that's how it's been. Now, Shiba, how do you feel about him? I mean, do you want to reestablish or establish a relationship?

Oh, I've always, always wanted to. You know, I totally respect him as a comedian. I think he's like, you know, one of the best, if not the best. He is the best, certainly of that genre, Borst Belt Catskill genre that I've seen anyway. I mean, he blows away anybody in that area. And he's extremely bright, too. To me.

He's extremely bright. Extremely bright. He's a wonderful conversationalist. Anna North, are you familiar with Jackie Mason's work? Of course, sure. Okay. You made a very good point. That's another.

And it should be compared to the sexual harassment stuff because there's so many worse ways to treat somebody which don't have the titillation of sex and nobody cares. Nobody's career is lost because they deny their daughter for 18 years. But you know, you misread a signal. The whole world wants it, you know. But there was a paternity test, is that correct? And it established within a billionth of a percentage, you know, whatever. Which is way more Jews than there are on the planet. That Jackie, that Yaakov, I believe his real name is... Jacob.

Yeah, Yaakov, his Hebrew name. What's his last name? Maza. M-A-Z-A. He changed it to Mason, you know, for obvious reasons. But that he is your father without any shadow of a reasonable doubt. Absolutely, yeah. And I mean, I don't know if you guys remember,

but when I was born, it was in all the papers. I don't remember that, no. I was born at the end of 85. And it was like a big deal. All over the world it was in the papers. It was on the cover. Was that when he was doing the one-man show on Broadway? That was just before prior, I think. Just right before he opened. I was on the cover. Was that when he was on the one-man show on Broadway? It was just right before

he opened up The World According to Me. In 1985, he was not yet on Broadway. I remember I saw him on Broadway. He was with my mother for 10 years. He met her in Miami Beach when he was working for $10 a ticket. It was post the Ed Sullivan show when he didn't

actually give the finger, but it was taken that way. And he was really set back and he was, you know, working for ten dollars a ticket at the Newport Hotel in Miami Beach. And he met her at Wolfie's Delicatessen. And he sent somebody over to the table and said, do you want to meet Jackie Mason? And the rest was history. But she had a very dominating mother who kind of pushed her into this relationship. And she said, oh, Jackie's my favorite comedian.

Come on, you know. And so they started dating 10 years and he always had other women on the side. He was a real player. And my mother kind of just looked the other way. She didn't really care. She knows he's a celebrity and that's what they do.

And then when I was born, he was always honest. He always said, I don't want children. I don't want a family. I don't want to be married. And when I was said, I don't want children. I don't want a family. I don't want to be married. And when I was born, he just kind of disappeared. Yeah, but he did more than just say, I don't want a daughter. He said, you were not his daughter. And he still says that. It's funny that he still denies it.

That's what's strange to me. It's been proven he paid child support. But why not just say, okay, you're my daughter. I don't want a relationship with you. But why didn't... I mean, does he hate your mother or something? Is there something... I mean, they never really got to the point of Venom.

He just sort of disappeared. You know, he literally disappeared. He had his brother call her up and break up with her after she had a baby. Now, you've been to therapy about this? No. You've never been to therapy? Why would I have to?

From where does this well of mercy and I think tenderness in a way for this man come from? Like, why don't you hate him? It's a weird, that's a good question. I thought therapy was the only answer, like a 12-step or something. It's this, I'm sort of caught in this, you know, like this paradox where, you know, I respect him so much as a comedian. And, I mean, I'm sure deep down I hate him. My mother kind of taught me not to hate him. Your mother taught you not to hate him.

You know, she kind of like taught me not to be bitter with resentment. My mother and my grandmother also kind of raised me like a father, you know. And, like, I even have a joke, like, she even had the beard, you know, like, rib. And, like, you know, she kind of, they kind of just taught me like not to grow up really bitter really angry and I mean what am I gonna do you know there's nothing I can't change it what puzzles me is that now that I'm older you know I'm already 31 or 32 and you know maybe he's terrified of having a really awkward conversation I wouldn't have one I would just take it forward I would be forgiving and just try to talk to him about comedy and stuff like that.

If I put Jackie Mason on, everybody would cheer. But if I put Louis on, they'd boo, right? Or God forbid. Or somebody that, that's not right. That's a bad name. You'll get no argument from me that we should take that seriously. We should take bullying seriously. All kinds of bad behavior.

There's lots of things. Much worse than anything we've seen. I'm not saying worse, but there's lots of stuff we need to talk about. I'm saying really it is worse. But also, this is an article about you and you're doing a play, right? Yeah. And they're mentioning that your father's denying. Every time you do something, are people like, and your father's denying you.

Is that annoying after a while? You're like, well, sure, it's annoying, yeah, but it gets me in the paper, so what am I going to do? But you are. When was the last time you said you actually exchanged words with him? It was a long time ago. I met him for the first time when I was eight. My grandma took me to see

his show. They thought that it was time for me to realize the enormous thing that he is, for lack of a better word at the moment. And I saw him at the Broward Center of Performing Arts. It was thousands of people. He was really tender. He took a look at me backstage.

He said, she looks just like her mother. He was really tender. And that was it. Then I met him again. I was bartending in the Broadway theaters. The last time I met him, and I saw him across the street, and I tried to say something.

He didn't recognize me. I even have a joke. We're getting closer. Last week, I saw him on the street, I tried to say something. He didn't recognize me. I even have a joke like, you know, we're getting closer. Like last week, I saw him on the street and he actually recognized me. And I know he recognized me because the minute he saw me, he ran the other way. Now, what about the money? The money

stopped when I was 18. No, but there's another load. It's not for Sheila. Well, she was not going to get it. I don't know if I could get it if he doesn't want me to have it. I don't know how I could get it if he doesn't want me to have it. I don't know how that works. I think that you can.

It's kind of creepy doing research, you know, before he's dead. About it, you know. It's okay. Among Jews, that's what we do. I'm not sure. I think you can cut off your biological children. You can cut them off. You can disinherit them, I think so. But maybe that's why he's trying to make out that you're not his daughter.

So it doesn't look like he wrote you out or something. I don't know. Maybe. I know that he's a very controlling manager. Very controlling. I mean, even like the story goes that when I was a baby and I was taking the blood test and I was like in pain, he came over to comfort me the way a normal father would. And she grabs him.

She's, Jackie, come on, we have reservations, you know, somewhere. She's very controlling. She's controlled, you know. It's a world of monsters. I'm telling you,

it's a world of monsters. She's one of the reasons why he's not really even more famous because people really loathe dealing with her. She's not the easiest to deal with. You know him apparently

far more unforgiving of Jackie Mason than Sheba Mason is, it would seem to me, calling, implying that he's a monster. Well, no, it was the manager who was dragging it. This was the scene where he was trying to be nice to her.

But I'm saying, just what is with people? I know. Well, she was jealous. She was jealous that he had a baby with somebody else. Everybody wanted his baby. And my mother's the one who had it. He always pulled out. The capacity for hypocrisy. Look at Harvey Weinstein.

All the stuff that was coming out of his mouth, and now I'm going to fight for gun control. It's everybody. All of them. Right and left, up, down, and center. Anyway, what else? It's either preach or don't

preach. He sort of makes himself a moral compass in his act, you know, a little bit. Is it possible that it's really true that the people who preach are to be more skeptically? He doesn't preach about that. No, that's true. He preaches about black people,

how they're living, and how they're having kids without... Family values and stuff. How they're having kids without dads. The last video speak about family values? The last video I saw, he was talking about Starbucks. They charge you $3.50 for a cup of coffee. You go to a diner, you get 90 cents. And I don't have to bust my own table.

I go to Starbucks, the people, they're sweeping, they're wiping, they're busting the table. That's not the greatest impression, but you get the idea. It wasn't bad. It was pretty good. I'd say that's a top five I've heard. Wow. And I've heard a lot. But nobody's ever accused Jackie of saying, he took it back. We went to Katz's Deli

and he wouldn't even let me finish my pastrami. He rushed me back home and he said, you're a Vilzachaya. Alright. You're not Jewish, right? I'm not. I'm sorry for that. You know what, but you understand villajaya. All right. Be a little Jewish. You're not Jewish, right? I'm not. I'm sorry.

You know what, but you understand where I'm going with this. He's telling her, show me your tushy. Anna, for Vox.com, that's Ezra Klein. Is that Vox.com? He's one of the founders. Yeah, yeah. He wrote a really good article the other day. So what are the other hot issues on feminism or stuff that we could talk about?

I've been advised that I should try to give more platforms to feminists and feminist points of view. And what I really like about you is that you don't get mad. No, because we've had other situations where people will get mad, you know. So what else? Yeah. I mean, I think one of the biggest things going on in feminism right now is the women's march. So I was out there covering it on Saturday. There were over a hundred thousand people out in the streets in New York. I read that one in a hundred people in America was at a women's march this weekend, which blows my mind. So I'm fascinated by that. That's one of the biggest social movements I've seen in my lifetime. You know, we saw 2 million

people around the world last year around this time. So I feel like you want feminists on the show, talk to the organizers of those marches around the country. Those women are pissed and they're doing something about it. What are they pissed at? Are you guys pissed? Are you pissed, Carmen? Tell the truth. I'm just honestly just really happy this is all happening, and every time there's a march, I'm on a plane. I was so bummed. But what is it that you're happy about? That things are changing.

What's changing? I'm being very serious. What's changing? That people are listening to women more now. I mean, I do think it's over. Say that again. I wasn't. No, go ahead.

That was funny. I mean, I think it's a slow and steady rate. I think it's like baby steps, but I think people are actually listening, and I do think Hollywood is going to change. You're talking about the sexual, the casting couch thing. Yeah, the casting couch,

but apparently everywhere, farmers and all these women who are getting sexually assaulted. Restaurant workers. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Allegedly. I mean, I think it's important to talk. But I think it's important to kind of overcompensate and talk about the Aziz stuff so we know, like, no, this isn't the same thing.

And then we go back to where we're supposed to go. Because if we don't talk about it, how are we going to know what's important? Like, what we should talk about? Now, this is my theory about it. And I got some pushback about this, too. But I think people are even coming around on this. That the real bottleneck here is not about teaching men, although that's great to do.

It's about teaching women to come forward, teaching women to say no. Because in the workplace, I've had the problem where I've had a woman, I'm not allowed to talk about it, but it's tough to get women to come forward. And it's not because they're afraid of retribution, it's not because of the reasons that are just easy reasons that are overlaid onto it

I think there's something fundamentally embarrassing and unpleasant about coming forward and it's done and it's in the past and they just don't want to come forward so often over and over we see these stories where she never used the procedures that the employer set up just don't want to come forward. So often, over and over we see these stories, women finally comes forward where she never used the procedures

that the employer set up. And women need to bite the bullet and be kind of indoctrinated. You're going to need to come forward because once men know that women will come forward, they will clean up their ass. Is there a way,

and Anna had pointed out, we talk a lot about what women should do, we should talk about what men should ass. Is there a way, and Anna had pointed out, we talk a lot about what women should do, we should talk about what men should do. Is there a way to attack the other end, the male end, to get men to behave differently on their own? Not without consequences. Without consequences. Not without consequences. Maybe not without consequences.

But there's actually, so people have done some research on this, and it does look like training managers at work, whether it's male or female, training them about what does sexual harassment look like, and what do you do if someone comes and talks to you, that can actually make a huge difference. So sometimes a woman or a man, because we know men can get harassed too, sometimes they come forward and they say to their HR rep, listen, this happened, and the HR rep's like, I don't know what to do. They're not always trained.

Sometimes they have the company's interests at heart more so than the person. So making sure that your company is actually set up to take that report and take it to the right channel. And take it seriously. You're absolutely right. That'll deter people who hear that, they're not going to take it seriously anyway.

That's another reason not to come forward. What do you think about... Go ahead. Do you think it's going to change the way men act toward women? Like, um, you know, like, oh, can I hug you? I'm sorry. You know, like, that kind of stuff that was normal

before, and now it's like... Yeah, I've been seeing that a little bit, actually. Do you mind if I hug you? I hope it changes it in a good way, so I don't want it to change... I don't want it to make men think they can't, like, take a woman out to coffee to give her advice because I think that's great.

People need advice. But I hope it changes in terms of, like, don't be putting a hand on a woman's leg, you know. Everybody should keep their hands to themselves. We have a lot of female comics that listen to this show, I think. I'm actually not sure. Do you think it's going to change the way companies hire? Like men are not going to hire women

or that kind of thing because they're afraid of things happening at the workplace. Do you think it's going to go that far? I hope not. I hope it means companies hire more women. Because we need equity. That's the biggest thing. We get more women at the top than I think it helps with us so much. As I was saying, we have a lot

of female comics that listen to this show, and if I can be of any help, I would just say to you, don't trust male comics. They want to take you on the road to open for them. They want to write with you, anything. If they're not gay, they're trying to

have sex with you. And if they're not trying to have sex with you, see rule one. What do you ladies, that's very good there. What do you ladies think about this yes means yes thing? Which is a whole other thing.

It's like an ex post facto, like they change, it was always no means no. And now like, I've been living my no means no. No, that's not good enough. But what do you think, can you explain the yes means yes,

the affirmative consent thing going around? Yeah, I think it's just the idea of like, you want someone to be excited to have sex with you. You don't want them to be like, oh, fine. I think it's a good standard. To be perfectly honest. Like you were saying, it's exciting when someone's into you.

That's my jam. Lucky for me. But some guys get off on the women, you know, they get off on women not being into it. But fortunately for me, my kinks are all legal. Can women be coy anymore and play a little hard to get? I mean, is that going to go away? Excellent question, Sheba Mason. I think there's a difference between playing hard to get and, like, you know, having a little banter,

having a little talk versus being like, you know, I feel little banter, having a little talk versus being like, you know, I feel forced, I'm not comfortable and being cold. Again, a lot of this is about communication. What about this?

Now, when I was reading, when I was in reading, I was debating on Facebook and being absolutely eviscerated. It was your first mistake. Eviscerated.

But I stood my ground as best I could. Aziz, a lot of people were making a lot of hay out of this fact that Aziz, they were making out.

He was going down on her, whatever he was doing. And he put his fingers in her mouth. And some women were saying, you don't just put your finger in a woman's mouth without getting explicit permission. And my thing is like... But his penis was already in her mouth. Well, my thing is like, you kind of do things sexually. You don't ask every step of the way for permission.

I think it's such a turn off. In general. I don't mean what DZs think. But when a guy's like, can I kiss you? I'm like, ugh. Yeah, I agree. Just fucking do it. Just be a man.

Be a man. This is the problem. See, I don't know, though. And I have had this exact debate with a male friend of mine over the weekend. He was saying, you know, I think it's a real turn off for a lot of women. I think that may be. I also know a lot of women for whom it's a turn on, you know? Yeah.

And I know a lot of, I think we're seeing more and more in movies, in TV shows, depictions of a man and a woman having a little bit of conversation beforehand. Like a light ass smack. For example, you're having sex with a woman. A light ass smack. You don't have to ask for a better light ass smack. If you're already having sex. If you're already having sex. But a finger in the butt.

All right, Dan. I think it all, it's all, like, a guy doesn't have to ask you. A guy doesn't have to ask you to kiss, can he kiss you, if there's clearly chemistry and you're touching his arm or whatever. And everybody reads chemistry. And it's the same with the finger in the butt. If you're doing a lot

of other things you shouldn't have to ask about the finger in the butt. I mean if you ask it kind of takes away like what if a girl does enjoy that and then he doesn't

and he has to ask. Alright so instead of asking you put your finger near the butt. That's how you test it. Like that old sketch you can sit near the butt. So you can gingerly move his hand away

and then you put it in little by little somebody ought to take all the great classic scenes in Hollywood movies like Gone with the Wind and redo them with like

Rhett Butler asking Scarlett can I kiss you do you mind if I break the door down well look we're not going to solve I think

I mean did people used to look at these scenes in Hollywood and say oh my god this is horrible look how much

the music man pursued the librarian what was that the music man you know Harold Till he pursued the librarian over so much but I'm saying

didn't both men and women look at these scenes and think they were romantic even when the man was being manly I think you still can and I think there's a lot of ways

that both partners can show they're excited and into it without necessarily being like, sign here on the dotted line. Can I tell you what? I think the fault in the yes means yes thing is that if you're scared to say no, why wouldn't you be scared to say yes? To be scared to not say yes. Like if you're scared to say no to the guy. Well, those are two separate issues. No, but I'm saying, do you want to have sex? If you're scared of me, you'll say yes. I mean, if you're scared, you're going to say no to the guy. Those are two separate issues. No, but I'm saying, do you want to have sex?

If you're scared of me, you'll say yes. If you're scared, you're going to say whatever you have to say. Well, you have to say yes with a certain gusto. What I'm saying is I don't think they thought that through. There's no difference between saying, in my opinion, in most scenarios, no difference between saying no and refusing to say yes. If you're scared, you're going to say what you need to say. I don't think the explicit yes notion is a majority opinion amongst women.

I'm just wanting to make point of truth. I mean, people do have that opinion that Noam has expressed. They want an explicit yes every step of the way. I think most women are fine with the current system, you know, where you take it little by little. The hand on the thigh means you can kiss. Kiss means you can put a hand on a breast. If she's no objection to hand on the breast, maybe, you know,

right on the butt. It's really listening, communicating. Don't make assumptions just because, you know, you're going up to Aziz's apartment, you're not going to become his girlfriend, but also it doesn't mean that... Another lesson for the ladies with regard to Aziz. That's instructive. Any dude on

stage that's peddling this I'm such a nice guy stuff... No, no, no, don't say that. What? Don't... View it with healthy skepticism. It may be okay. He may be that. No, I don't like what you're saying. What am I saying? Because you're kind of saying that Aziz is not a nice

guy, and there's no basis to think he's not a nice guy. He's a nice guy, but he's not he's not. You're right. You're correct. I can see that. I can see that. But he's not what she thought.

Whatever she thought he was, which was, it's not that. He's a guy and he's trying to get it in. But just because they come to your apartment also doesn't mean that they want to sleep with you. So both sides are making assumptions. And then what happens when a girl goes to a guy's apartment and he doesn't hit on her? She said, what's wrong with me? You know, how come he didn't hit on me?

That's a huge thing. And I think you brought this up, that there's an expectation that men always want sex all the time. That's right. I think that's a problem too. We've got to examine all these cultural assumptions and we've got to be talking to each other about them. We're going to wrap it up.

That's why with all these complex things, I think, and we want to bite off much more than we can chew as a society, we really need to limit it to coercion. Because that is the clear, bright line. The rest is all reasonable minds can differ you don't know what really happened you can't unwind it you'll never get to the bottom of it if somebody coerced you to do something that you didn't want to do either physically or through professional pressure whatever it is that needs to stop

we don't need to get into people's dating experiences, I don't think. I think that's a big mistake. But then is it, not your journal, but do journalists just want a story? Do journalists just want a story? Do you know what I mean? Are they going to say, well, this is a coercion? Yes, they want clicks. But they're not going to change that.

Well, no, we're not going to change it, but I think that sometimes these things get in people's mind and then society begins to have a different ethic about it, a different view of it. And I really, I've been thinking about this for months already, and I keep coming back to it. If it's not coercion, really, I don't want to hear about it. We should not be looking at it. We can't judge it. It's over our heads.

That's for God. I mean, we really don't know. That's what I think. All right, anybody else? Sheba, you're delightful. I had a very close relationship with my father, and I have a very close relationship with my children, so I find that story heartbreaking.

Thanks. Adopt her. Well, no, but also inspiring that she handles it so gracefully. Well, thanks. She's barely even punch a pillow or something. All right. I'm really less... I'm not even really angry as I am a little bit.

You know, I'm just sad, really. You know, I would have liked to have really known him, but what can you do? Yeah. All right. But thanks. Thanks for having me. Does anybody really know him is the question.

It seems like he might be a hard guy to know in general. Possibly. You know. Carmen, plug your record that won the award, your album. Dance Like You Don't Need the Money on Sirius or CD Baby or carmenlynch.com. CD Baby? Oh, yeah. Not Amazon?

Or Amazon. Yeah, all of them. It's on all of them. CD Baby's still out there? Yeah. Oh. Never mind. Anna? on all of them. CD Baby's still out there? Yeah. Never mind. Anna?

iTunes. Go ahead. You tweet? What do you do? You can follow me at Anna North Tweets on Twitter. I'm a senior reporter at Vox.com. Yay. Were we okay? Am I okay?

No, were we okay? Was this better or worse than you thought? People are scared to come into the Comedy Cellar radio show. They don't know what to expect. I don't mind talking about it. It's always good to argue. We were respectful? Yes.

Did I say anything that ought to get me in trouble and boycotted or anything like that? Please. I had a good time. I felt like... That sounds like a yes. All right. Okay. Well, I don't think I did, because I want to cut it out if I said something bad.

Okay. Thank you very much, everybody. Good night. All right. Okay. Well, I don't think I do, because I want to cut it out if I said something bad. Okay. Thank you very much, everybody. Good night. Thank you. Thanks.