The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Converted: from Muslim to Jewish with Khaled Hassan

Episode Date: February 16, 2024

Khaled Hassan is an Egyptian-British counter-terrorism researcher. His research interests include propaganda, antisemitism in the Arab world, terrorism and extremism. He leads the Western Security Network, a not-for-profit established to safeguard Western national security and counter the threat of extremism, as well as authoritarian, expansionist states. He can be reached via Twitter/X at @Khaledhzakariah

This is Live from the Table, the official podcast of New York's world-famous comedy cellar, coming at you on Sirius XM 99 Raw Comedy, formerly Raw Dog. A change, I believe, for the better. I think Raw Dog was a little bit vulgar. Obviously, the connotation being sex without a condom. In any case, also available as a podcast, wherever you get your podcasts, Dan Natterman here with Noam Dorman, owner of the ever-expanding comedy cellar, a new room, the Manny Dorman Comedy Theater, opening in hopefully early 95,

but you never know with New York City. Not 95. I mean, sorry, did I say 95? I meant 25. What the hell was that? If Biden had said that, it'd be front page news. Anyway, yeah, but you never know what this city with paperwork and construction permits and so forth but we're hopeful that it opens in uh in 25 in early 25 shocking that that it's that it's 2025 that will be 2025 and i remember 1995 yeah well my kids are going to be alive in 2100

you think? I think yeah unless something terrible happens to them why wouldn't they be well 75 yeah that likely will be likely will be 85 is their age now imagine what it would be then hopefully likely

anyway and who knows maybe by 2100 they'll be able to extend even further. So anybody that lives long enough. I'm presuming there are going to be living until 130 or 140. I think, but I certainly think we'll see a lot more people living until 100 in good health. And that being a centenarian won't be, like being a cent, now you meet somebody who's 100,

and especially if they're coherent, it's a pretty big deal. All right, 75 years ago was 1950. If you extrapolate that level of medical and technological advance over the next 75 years...

What medical advances? Was 1950 before they even discovered the double helix? Yeah, but how has that helped? I mean, I don't know, but how has the double helix... I mean, they're on the threshold now of custom medicine. Why would you bet against the notion that they will learn how to make cell reproduction

either have less degradation from generation to generation, or just perfect reproduction, or even go backwards. I'm only, look, they might. And once they can solve aging, I guess everything else falls into place. Why are you such a negative Nelly? I just, because, you know, they've been throwing, how many trillions of dollars have they been throwing at cancer? And if you're stage four.

Trillions? I don't know. It's probably trillions by now. Okay. And if you're stage four it's probably trillions by now okay and if you're stage four i mean yes they can catch it earlier and that's great and and that's a big thing but if you're stage four if it's metastasized i don't know that there's much they could do for you today that they couldn't do for you in 1950 once it's stage four no but what about stage one two and three and zero cancer. Cancer also comes in stage zero. Stage zero? That's weird.

So what are we all, negative one? I don't know. Well, I think even 40 years ago, if you were stage one or two, they could probably cure you. I mean, I've known people. There are a number of curable cancers now. Blood cancers, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, something like that. I don't know.

They've made big strides. Heart disease, with blood pressure meds and statins, I think they've done some good work. And stents. And bypasses. And amputees. People who need... Well, but that's not a longevity thing.

No, but they've made incredible advancements. And diabetes. people with who need um well but that's not a longevity thing no it's a medical advance but it's not a longevity advancements and diabetes not parkinson's not so parkinson's and als they're still flailing about oh god you know we did that ice bucket challenge didn't seem to help um listen i i we got a really funny comment on our youtube from um Dr. Hara episode that I wanted to read. I'll read that. Then I'll read the letter from the woman who complained about the commisal. Okay, good.

That's a good way to... Nothing personal. She seems like a nice person, but it's insane to me that people can be intelligent enough to study medicine at Harvard and also believe this garbage. Interesting point. That's what you wanted to read? Yeah.

I thought that was really funny. And Noam, you have a... It's going to take a little while to find it. What do you think about that? Because I have gone about repeating telling everybody not to worry because it's not going to be Trump or Biden

who are running for president. And when they say, how do you know? I said, well, we spoke to a psychic. Yeah, but for some reason she didn't like the word psychic. She was like, you know, I think she pushed back on the label psychic, even though she was predicting the future. But it was based on what i guess she regards as more scientific grounds of numerology okay well whatever it was and i was whatever however you know whatever the word is but then when i said that people didn't seem to take it very seriously when i was like

don't worry well did you mean it or were you kidding around? No, I was being dead serious. No, you weren't. Yes, I was. I totally believe in that stuff. Okay. In what stuff? I said that I had a conversation with a couple of people about the upcoming election. I said, don't worry, it's not going to be Biden or Trump. And by the way, even if you believe in numerology she might not be you know

a numerologist the best numerologist i mean i believe in brain surgery but you know that doesn't mean i'm gonna go gonna go to any brain surgeon i think she's i think she's pretty good i think she's how can you make that determination i mean she has you know reputation of um oh all right i guess she does have a reputation you can't believe that stuff that's so i somebody was really upset they were saying you know kind of like what ricky was saying like i can't believe we have to pick between biden and trump and i said don't worry you don't have to that's not i see that's not going to be and they said well how do you know that and i said well i spoke to a psychic well by the way well known, well, Noam is looking for his,

for the email. I might give up on this. I might have to call Liz. Go ahead. No, I'm not ignoring you. I'm just. No, he, I know you're not. He is.

Did anybody see the We Are The World Netflix making of documentary? No. All right. Apparently, Paul Simon said, Noam, what do you think of this? I'm listening. What? Paul Simon apparently said it. We are the world. They said, oh, if a bomb drops on this building,

John Denver's back on the top of the... Paul McCartney said that. No, not Paul McCartney. Paul McCartney wasn't at We Are the World. Oh, then why did somebody tell me Paul McCartney said that? You're right. You're right about that. But somebody told me... No, it was Paul Simon. Somebody told me they got the story wrong. But isn't that sort of an asshole thing to say well it wasn't supposed to be repeated i know but even that well right but you're saying it to all of

like you know um all the you're like in the car like i would never say that about a you know in a in a group of comedians i would never say oh about a, you know, in a group of comedians, I would never say, oh, if this building got bombed, then such and such comedian will be the top. Eric Kornfeld's back on top again. Well, I wouldn't, whoever it would be. Eric, where'd you pick that from? I don't know.

I haven't heard, I heard that name. And I mean, he doesn't even, I don't even think he's in the city anymore, but. He was a good comic, actually. Listen, I like John Denver. Yeah, John Denver's good. Yeah, I'm calling Liz to get that. Okay.

You fill up my center... Yeah, was that... Annie's song. That's the first right melody. Alright, whatever. So go ahead. And by the way, Rocky Mountain... Not Rocky Mountain High. That's good, too, but Country Roads, you guys sing that every week?

Excellent song. And Leaving on a Jet Plane? Yeah, these are good tunes. Thank God I'm a country boy? I don't like that one as much. But, you know, not that it's without merit. It's just my personal taste. But in any case, that seemed like an un...

Do you have that review from the woman who complained we ruined her chance to get pregnant? You read that on here. No, I didn't read it. I read it to you in the auditorium. You did? I think I read it to you in the auditorium. I didn't read it on the air. I meant to.

What is your thought on We Are The World Is A Melody? Listen, I am not a snob about things. I can only tell you that when the song came out, I was in high school. What were you? 85. So you're in college.

85. So I was in college and, um, I guess a freshman, freshman in college. And, uh, I thought it was great.

I, I was totally enchanted by seeing all those famous people singing i loved the way um and this is really speaking from memory of that time i loved the way they had each performer do their kind of signature turn on the melody i remember the guy from just was a steve Steve Perry from Journey did that, uh, like, like that,

I didn't pull it off just there, but that kind of vocal thing and Cindy Lauper did that, wow, wow, wow, and Ray Charles,

Springsteen, it was all, Bob Dylan even, they were all like, and is it, I mean, I didn't see the recent documentary, but at the time

there was like a making of, I think it showed like Stevie Wonder trying to get Bob Dylan to sing more like Bob Dylan. Did they show that in this documentary? Yeah, they showed like, Bob didn't know how to do it and Stevie apparently imitated Bob. Yeah, yeah.

They don't have the imitation. I don't think that was in there, but I would have remembered that. But they said he imitated Bob Dylan and sang trying to tell Bob, sing it this way and then. You're doing me. Yeah, yeah. Stevie imitated Bob Dylan and sang, trying to tell Bob, sing it this way, and then... You're doing me! Yeah, yeah, Stevie imitated Bob Dylan.

So, and the melody is, of course the melody is good. How can anybody say that melody is not good? Everybody, you heard it one time and you could sing it. It was designed to be an anthemic melody, like a very, it's a world of love. It's a small world. That kind of very, very simple but catchy melody.

It succeeded on that level. The bridge. We go da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. That's all right. It kind of goes by quick. What was the bridge again? Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Oh, yeah, that's the one.

Just that particular uh harmonic turn is a little a little bit cliche right but uh it was kind of the same harmonic turn what do you mean but i don't have a guitar but like just just to go to there to for the song to go there with the bridge that was my yeah that was my least favorite okay part of the song i think, that was my least favorite part of the song. I think there's a part of the Sting song, every breath you take, that actually kind of does something similar.

I don't remember. Anyway, but... Yeah, since you're gone, I've been lost without a trace. So you're saying that's similar to... A little bit similar, you know, kind of approach.

But it's a valid thing. That's just never been my favorite type of thing. So it's like, thing. That's just never been my favorite type of thing. So it's a contrast. And it's a very effective contrast. Oh, Liz just sent it to me. But I don't like the people who shit on We Are The World because it was exactly what it wanted to be.

And we all loved it and the same way you know I'm just not a snob okay so we got we got a letter here and then I guess it is this the right one I'm just gonna read this but if it okay so this is a woman complaining about bad attitude by our staff. Now, I'm not happy to read this, and I'm presuming that somebody on the staff did have a bad attitude, but believe me, that's been taken care of. Perel, you want to...

Listening? Well, you put up... She fell asleep in the last... There's a QR code now at the front of the club that says you have any comments or complaints, you can literally get straight to a manager go straight to a manager and and chat yeah wait a second and who's the manager liz liz as soon as i answer it can i can i read this i want to know what happened to

why you're assuming that the staff person had a bad attitude because the customer said so why would they say so if it wasn't true? But they might. Okay. Really, why would they? Anyway. Well, you can interpret things differently. Okay, go ahead.

Read this. I mean, you could, but as a boss, why would I want to, for a minute, assume? Because the customer complains, listen, your guy had an attitude with me. Yeah. Now, it's true, the customer might have had an attitude too, but generally, if you're nice to people, it's not... I mean, is that what you would assume if somebody told you that I had an attitude?

You would just assume that I had the attitude? Yes. What if it was Ryan Hamilton? If somebody said Ryan Hamilton had an attitude, you'd probably be a little more... This is the thing. Skeptical. One time, somebody said that a particular door guy who's worked for me who i always saw nice he was always just like almost superhuman nice

told me that this guy cursed at him and had a terrible attitude and i wrote the customer i said this can't be true i've known this guy for all these years he's always it's true the customer said all right so i went and you know, they wear body cameras. I went and checked the body camera. This guy was cursing and nasty to the customer. Like, I couldn't, I said, what the fuck? I can't believe this is. Well, the body cameras are relatively new, right?

So it's a recent few years, yeah. But getting them to wear them is a whole thing. Anyway, Liz, the seating staff all had sour looks on their faces and were not friendly. Once we were seated in a very cramped space, we know that's true, we realize, or can be true, we realized there was a totally empty booth next to us where no one was going to be seated and everyone around us said it would be better for my husband to sit there so they would have more room. Then for 10 minutes, the seaters came by over and over, suggesting my husband's sitting position was unfair to people around him

and that he should sit in the chair. Now, at this point, it sounds like the customer is being difficult. He's like sprawling out. Sit in the chair, which would have caused discomfort to the very large man who was sitting behind him and to a very large woman who had been seated next to him. The service didn't ask the folks next to us, instead singling my husband out and harassing him. They did not offer us a nice other spot to sit to free up space. Instead, only once someone said with a nasty tone, well, we could put you somewhere else, which in context

with the nasty behavior didn't sound like a nice offer to anyone. It wasn't, oh, hey, you know, how about we give you that awesome seat over there and then we can let all these people have more space. That would have been much more productive. Okay, here's where it gets odd. Oh, you know, the guest. This ruined my date with my husband and frankly might impact our ability to grow our family because the experience is so dreadful that we were missing a cycle to try for a baby this month. The intent was to go out and have some laughs and to take the tension off our week. And the absolute opposite happened. The fact that only one comedian was funny meant that our overriding experience was the issue with the servers because we never had that experience that we usually do

of losing ourselves in the hilarious comedy. So we just had this nasty experience overall. And the consequences, to me, personally, of not being able to have a nice date night are pretty significant since we are older, we're an older couple, and I don't have that many months left of any fertility. Well, that's odd, all right. Yeah, it's crazy.

So, having said that, now I might take this... At that point... You know you're dealing with a crazy person. Maybe. Maybe. Okay. We're going to circle back to that. Okay. Hi! Hello, we have...

Let me just give you a brief intro. Khaled Hassan, Egyptian-British counterterrorism researcher. His research interests include propaganda, anti-Semitism, the Arab world, terrorism, and extremism. Welcome all the way from London via the miracle of teleconferencing, Khaled Hassan. How are you tonight? Not bad, thanks. How are you? I think it might be the morning where you are, isn't it? No, it's, I guess, midnight or so there. Yes, it is.

It's almost. It's 11 p.m., yes. Okay. Anyway, welcome to our show. I'm Dan. This is Noam, the owner of The Comedy Cellar. This is Perriel. Hi.

Max can't shift the cameras. Oh, I'm sorry. That's Periel to me alright so hi so sir Periel saw you on Twitter and she was fascinated

because as opposed to the many Jewish people we've had on who are seem to be very anti-Israel. You are an Arabic person who is, I don't want to say you're anti-Palestinian, but not sympathetic to at least Hamas in this cause. I'm not sure completely what your politics are, but give us an overview of where you're coming from on this issue. Yes, yes. Thank you very much for having me.

Thank you. So I'm Egyptian, and I was born in 1919 Cairo. Like most Egyptians, I grew up in a Muslim family. I grew up pretty much hating Israel, pretty much, you know, the usual the usual you know anti-semitism you know not not too different from from you know most people and that was basically that was basically my background until I started to learn more about Judaism I started to learn more about essentially world around me I grew up in a very secular environment in a way because my family was not really that religious.

And they sent me to an American school. And I think this is really what changed my life. I went to an American school. It was, you know, very open-minded, very secular. And we had, you know, it was a mixed school. So we had, you know, boys and girls. And over time, my interest in Judaism grew and my interest in the region grew. And I started to actually learn about the history of the Middle East and learn about Judaism and learn about Islam from other sources.

Other than what I was actually offered in my immediate community, if you will. And that ended up with me converting to Judaism over many years. And this is where I am now. Oh, I didn't realize you converted to Judaism. So, okay, this is a fascinating story. Can you tell us what are some of the main misconceptions or myths that a boy being raised in Egypt or elsewhere in the Arab world would have about Israel

specific and Jews which are the most untrue? Number one, there's this suspicion of Jews. There's this deeply rooted suspicion that you know a jew is someone who's inherently evil in a very unhuman way you know it's it's it's almost like this there is this kind of alien somebody who's you know who's just really genetically evil somebody who is even if they talk to you nicely,

even if they're being nice to you, even if they're interacting with you in a friendly way, that is part of a larger scheme of evil. It's to lure you over. It's to control your mind. It's to do all these things, to brainwash you. And I think this specific aspect of Arab and Muslim anti-Semitism, to be honest, is horrifically deeply rooted

because it's in religious texts, it's in culture, it's in history, and you're being taught this. And to question this means that you're pretty much going against the convictions of your own people. So you're going to find that even if you question this means that you actually you're pretty much going against the convictions of your own people so you're going to find that even if you question this or even if you say what's this based on you're going to find that you are immediately accused of treason being a sad agent being you know all sorts of this this mad stuff uh and you find that inevitably you're not safe anymore essentially so i've i have a very close

friend uh his name is hatem he's egyptian and kuwaiti we do another podcast together and he insists to me that this notion that the quran um teaches uh muslim people to be uh against the jews or to be skeptical of Jews is not true. But you disagree with him on that? I fundamentally disagree. So I'll tell you what I think. As a Jewish person now, I know that there are texts in the Tanakh, there are texts in the Hebrew Bible,

there are texts in what Christians christians would call the new testament you know there are texts in almost every religion that are somewhat rejected by the majority of people now or not even if not even rejected but sort of not acted on like people don't act upon these texts now because it's 2024 you know it's you know we know, we have laws, we have rules. In Islam, it's completely different. If you question one word of the Quran, especially the Quran, I'm not talking about other texts, you know, which are less, the Quran is seen as the word of God. So if you question the word of God, you are immediately somebody who is a disbeliever,

somebody who is shunned, somebody who is, like I said, immediately just pushed out like I said, immediately just pushed out of the society, immediately attacked. And this is why it's really quite difficult. But to go to your question, I think there is another aspect to this that I find really difficult, which is, again, most Muslims saying one thing in private. So he would say this to you because you're not Muslim. You're not somebody who comes from a Muslim background

but if he says this to me he knows that the argument is going to be completely different, he knows that I will present the evidence because I speak Arabic and I will show from the Quran what the Quran says about Jews for instance there is a verse of the Quran that says, that basically

uses the words Ashadda Adawa our which basically means no one will be more hostile to you basically no one will be a worse enemy to Muslims than Jews and it mentions Jews so there's absolutely there's absolutely nothing that can be done about this and I think it's it's it's it's just well and I think it's just very obvious. Yeah, maybe sometime in the future. I mean, he's a good friend of mine,

and I know the phenomenon that you're talking about of saying one thing within the community and one thing without. And actually, Hatem has told me the same thing about other matters. For instance, when a leader says one thing about Israel to his own people, another thing to the international world. But on this particular issue, I don't think he's doing that. So maybe sometime in the future I could get you guys on another conversation and you can have it off.

So that's the first thing is you're taught that Jews are evil. And then what about Israel? What are you taught about Israel's intentions? Yes, I'm really sorry I just had to move because it's quite... That's okay, that's okay. I'm a very loud person generally. That's okay. You have children there?

Yeah, Israel is part of the conversation obviously because israel we had many wars with israel as egypt as as arabs we had many more wars with israel and i'll mention one thing that i was just talking about recently so i grew up and we had films basically that would show you how evil jews are how evil Israelis are. And we had one specific film that I remember where a young Egyptian man goes to Sinai with his family on holiday. And because a lot of Israeli tourists go to Sinai, he ends up meeting this Israeli young woman and he falls in love. And the film, basically, the whole story goes that this is a plan. It's a larger scheme. It's a greater

scheme by Israelis to send Israeli women to Sinai to basically seduce and lure those young Egyptian men, have sex with them, and do all that stuff, and essentially take them and brainwash them and then convert them to Judaism. Which is, I don't think there's anything that could be further from the truth. That's not what happened to you. Yes, exactly. And converting to Judaism itself is a concept. I think this is actually quite, it's a great

example also of projection. Because Muslims want to convert others to Islam. This has been happening since, this is how Islam spread. So they see this and they think, right, this is what Jews want to do. And you always see this, the word judification used, you know, that Jews are trying to essentially turn the entire planet into Jewish lands. But again, this is what Islam did. This is how Islam conquered Egypt in around the 625 Common Era.

That's what happened to Egypt. Egypt was not Muslim. So this is what you see. And I grew up with these concepts. There was even actually something that was even more horrible, far more horrible than this. And I was always told by,

I remember actually my mom telling me this and some of my own immediate family members, that Israelis inject young Israeli women with HIV and send them to Sinai to have sex with young Egyptian men. And that's why I would always get the warning that if you go somewhere and you meet a young, you know, a good looking young woman, an Israeli young woman in Sinai, don't even talk to them, don't even interact with them whatsoever. And again, it's silly, but these are the kind of stories, these are the kind of conceptions and these are the kinds of conspiracy theories that I and my generation grew up with.

So I want to be careful how I proceed here because if I imagine the mirror image of, if I saw a Jewish guy being interviewed who had converted to Islam and then was bad-mouthing Israel, I know I would find that jarring. And then if the person interviewing them kind of went easy on them,

it would disturb me. And somehow I believe it's even much more jarring because that doesn't happen very often for Arabic people to see you going to the other side. So let me just ask you, so every question I want to ask you is respectfully, but I want to do my duty as a probing questioner. So all those myths about Judaism and Israel,

you determined were untrue, but this is not a reason to convert to Judaism, to reject your own people and culture. It might just be a reason to see the truth and to reform. There are many Muslim people around the world who are not raised, I don't think, on that kind of brand of Islam. So what made you reject Islam? I think it's a very interesting question. And I completely agree. You should do your job, and you should challenge me. That's how the conversation is interesting. Otherwise,

it's boring and it's pointless. But I think there are a few things that we need to actually unpack here. Number one, when we talk about me as an Arab, I don't believe that I'm Arab. I believe that this is part of the colonization that has happened at the hands of Arabs. Egypt, before the conquest of Arabs, and again, around the year 625, actually, apologies, the year 640, Egypt was not Arab. We did not speak Arabic. We did not. We were Christians. We were a completely different society. We were an open society. We did not. We were, you know, we were Christians. We were a very, we were a completely different society.

We were an open society. You know, our women were queens. I mean, you know, you will see this in Egyptian history, ancient Egyptian history. And then this happened. And over the years, hundreds and hundreds of years, we began to actually adopt this, the colonizer's identity. We began to say we're Arabs. And then you see it in the year, oddly,

over the years, over decades and centuries, we were still identifying as Egyptian. Even officially, our passport said Egyptian. You know, it said Egypt. This is the Egyptian kingdom. Can I just stop you there for a second? Because it's interesting. I, you know, my whole life,

I've been around Arabic people, and I haven't heard in a long time, but when I was younger, I would hear Egyptian people tell me, no, no, I'm not Arab, I'm Egyptian. And I never understood. They'd speak Arabic, but the Egyptian people I knew would separate themselves in some way. I never really understood how but they exactly what you're

saying it's not it's not a fringe position it was a common thing that i heard from egyptian people so continue yeah exactly yes yeah unfortunately it's now it's now a bit of a a lot of people now would say that i'm a bit of a radical because they see these views and they feel like oh you're rejecting our arab identity you're just a bit of a maniac. You know, you're a radical. But until the year 1952, when Nasser took over, we did not say, you know, Egypt was not called the Arab Republic of Egypt as it is now. It was called the Kingdom of Egypt and Sudan. And when he took over, he completely changed this. And now we have movements actually in Egypt. Unfortunately, they're horrifically un-Semitic still because they have this nationalist identity and they tend to still glorify Hitler, glorify Nazism as, you know, they see Nazism as a nationalist movement as well.

And that's another challenge. But there are growing movements that say we're Egyptian, we're not Arab. Now to come to your question, I think that for someone like me who goes through a process where you're questioning everything that you were taught, you're questioning everything that people around you really believe in, and you come to a point where you realize this is just not who I am. I do not fit in this society. This is not just who I am. This is not why I converted to Judaism, by the way. My conversion to Judaism is completely different. But I'm talking about this distancing myself from the society around me.

I distance myself from the society because it's just the values of this society do not align with my values. For instance, I have a daughter now. I am delighted. I am proud. I'm thrilled. Every day when I wake up, I realize my daughter did not.

My daughter will not grow up in Egypt. You know, she's not going to experience the sexism that I have seen my own cousins, for instance, experience in Egypt. And that's part of my identity as well. And this is why I distanced myself from this society. Now, to go to Judaism, I think Judaism is the most fascinating intellectual debate that has been ongoing for thousands and thousands of years. And for me, this is the main point that makes me feel like Judaism is who I am. You know, this is a nation that I want to belong to. There are definitely other reasons, religious reasons. I believe in God. I'm not very religious, but I want to belong to. There are definitely other reasons, religious reasons. I believe in God. I'm not very religious, but I do believe in God.

And I like the way, and I really appreciate the way Judaism looks at God. You know, it's not as strict as it is in Islam. It's not unquestioning as it is in Islam. Now, you must hear Jewish people who don't know your background say bigoted things about Arabic people or Muslim people from time to time, no? That's true, yes. How do you react to that? How do you handle that? It would be dishonest to say that this never happens. I have seen, I mean, I have seen, there was for instance, actually an American Jewish guy not long ago, I was posting about Hamas,

criticizing Hamas on Twitter, and he commented and said to me, well, you need to talk to your people, Hamas, and tell them to stop this. And he was talking to me as if I was 100% Hamas supporter, just because of my name, because he saw this Arab name and he decided, you know what, here we go. Here's another terrorist. You know, and it was, it was, and I mean, I didn't actually, what was fascinating is how many Jewish people who know me, how many people on Twitter who know that I'm Jewish, how many people who know my position defended me, how they went on the offensive against this guy and they just said to him, hold on a moment, you're being a racist

here. And I think this is the distinction that we have to make. Every society has racists. I actually believe that it's anti-Semitic to say that Israelis or Jews generally should be 100% amazing. That's anti-Semitic because they're human. To suggest

that they're not human or somehow saintly is, in my view, quite a different form of discrimination. But the difference is in Israel, in Jewish society, Jewish communities generally in the diaspora, it remains the exception, not the norm. So you're going to have a few bad apples, basically. And there's not much we can do about this. We do our best to counter this, but they still do exist. And I still get some of these comments.

Every once in a while, I'd get a silly comment. And I would either ignore it, respond to it, and highlight how stupid and bigoted it is, or somebody else would do it on my behalf, basically. Yeah, I feel... I'll say one more thing. I feel shamed when I hear Jewish people say stuff like that. By the way, it's an interesting point that you make, that in some way holding Israel up to this higher standard is kind of setting them up for failure, and it is a way to like um to sneak in anti-semitism but i i feel shamed when i hear jewish people speak in a bigoted way and um and and you're exactly right

it it it's ridiculous to think otherwise and and then i i try not to be unfairly judgmental of my own people and i have to remember that there is a war, not just the current conflict, but for many, many years of people dying. And there is a human inevitability of peoples who are having their own people die at the hands of another people. And this goes on both sides.

To develop hatred and bigotry and to speak in a in a in a horrible way. I'll only add one thing to it and then you can comment on and then I'll let Dan in. I made this point a couple of weeks ago. I believe this to be true, but you could tell if you don't. One sloppy kind of thinking that I think happens is that people assume a mirror image in this conflict. And what I've said, and you've kind of backed it up a little bit already, is that the difference is that Arabic people are raised on a diet of anti-Jewishness. It's a fundamental aspect of their culture to have an attitude about the Jews. Jewish people, we have no attitude about the Arab world except as it relates to the conflict that we've had with the Arab world. There's no cultural, religious, there's nothing

about the Arabic world which we are raised on a diet of, as I said, except for the fact that there's this conflict. But if that conflict were to end, then the Jews would have, then the Arabs become like Chinese does. It's like, it's just another people. We have no particular beef with them. But the opposite is not true. even if the conflict is to end the the the uh cultural attitude about the jews will probably never go away i don't know how you yes i completely agree and i always make this argument and i find it really frustrating how some people dismiss what i say sometimes in the West, especially, and they say, well, you know, you're Jewish, you know, you, you, you chose Judaism, you know, and that's,

this is why you're biased. This is why your views, you know, are not exactly, you know, objective. And I think to say this, it's, I mean, my dad was a German teacher. So he, so he taught German, basically he taught German. He was an Egyptian a Muslim guy, very moderate, never actually voted. He only voted once in his life, in Egypt, by the way, so he always used to say that he hates politics in all shapes and forms. He really never had any strong opinions, basically, that's what I'm saying. Nevertheless, he had, so he owned a Fiat, but he still had a key chain, like a key thingy, basically for the car that was a VW. And I said, why do you have a VW? If you are, you know, you have a Fiat, you know, you don't own a VW. And I said, because this is Hitler's car and Hitler burned the Jews. And that's why I love Hitler. and that's why I love this car,

and I'm hoping that I'll buy one quite soon. It's really, it's so difficult to explain how deeply rooted it is, the glorification of Nazism. I've actually investigated this on both, on an academic capacity and also on a personal capacity. I've seen it in Egypt, I've seen it everywhere, I've seen it in the films. I mean it everywhere. I've seen it in the films. I mean, imagine if I told you that Robert De Niro or, you know, Al Pacino played this role where he was glorifying Hitler, like in a very, one of the most popular films in the history of the U.S.,

you know, it would blow your mind. But this is exactly what we have in Egypt. It's everywhere. It's wherever you look, you're going to find it. You're often going to find that there is always an element of anti-Semitism during Ramadan, the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, where everyone's fasting. You get a lot of shows. It's basically like it's the season for a TV series in Egypt. And you're always going to get an element or a TV show that includes Jews somehow. And it's horrifically un-Semitic. And it's completely accepted. Nobody even questions it.

To question it means that you are a traitor. And that's the challenge. This is how bad it is. And yet when Arabic people come to America, they get along very nicely with Jews. I have to say, in my experience. I think it really depends, to be honest, because I have, so for instance, I've mentioned again two examples on Twitter. I went to the hospital with my daughter for an appointment, and it was really quite a

difficult time for us because it was, you know, quite a serious medical condition. And I sat next to a Syrian guy. He's a Syrian refugee. So I thought, you know, I really feel like I miss home. You know, I haven't been back home in like eight years. So I want to talk to somebody, you know, somebody who speaks Arabic. You know, I want to speak Arabic.

And I would feel like, you know, there's this sense of home. Let's talk about TV. Talk about something, you know, that I love just to make me, you know, cheer me up a little. And then he goes on about COVID and he goes on about how COVID is a Jewish conspiracy. And how COVID is, you know, cheer me up a little. And then he goes on about COVID and he goes on about how COVID is a Jewish conspiracy and how COVID is, you know, and it was horrific. So I think it really varies.

In my own experience, I have seen that most of my interactions with Arabs in the UK and across Europe has been not a positive one, to be honest. I haven't dealt with anyone in America, American Arabs, but I can also see that you see a lot of anti-Semitism for the Arab American community. And you can see it online,

but I haven't experienced it in person. Now, in line with us doing our due diligence, we don't speak Arabic, obviously, but we know people who do. Is there any way we can see some of these films you're talking about, or books, or some way to verify that indeed there are films and books and TV shows, you know, that say these things about Jews? I actually really like this question, because I was just thinking about this

because I thought it would be a wonderful educational experience for people in the West generally to see this, to see a film from beginning to end, to see the whole story, to see how a Jew is portrayed. But there are

big, massive works that have been examined by Western scholars and have been translated to show how this is, you know, very deeply rooted. Like there is a show called Faris Bila Gawad, and this one was made by a very well-known actor. Again, you know, kind of the Al Pacino of Egypt in a way. Muhammad Subhi, that's his name. And it was essentially a conspiracy theory. It was all, in a way, about the protocols of the elders of Zion. And there is a lot of writings, academic writings about this specific TV show. And I personally, I

often translate, I get, I do, I try to spend as much time as I can doing this actually. I would find a clip in a film and I would show basically what kind of story it tells and I would translate it and post it on social media. But I think this is a good project. We do need to see this. We do need to see how deeply rooted it is. And also another thing I did not long ago, I posted basically a screenshot of all of the shops that were called Hitler in Egypt. So you would go, you know, you would go to a shop to buy, you know, I don't know, shoes, you know, a pair of shoes or whatever.

And the shop is called Hitler. I've posted this to show you how, to show people how normal it is, how part of the culture it's, you know culture it's completely normal to accept this. It's completely normal to give shops like this the license to operate. Although a lot of them do not really have a license because they operate in an informal kind of way. But you see this. And I think a lot of organizations, Memory, for instance, I'm not sure if you know Memory.

Memory translates a lot of stuff from Arabic, even religious sermons. And that's a completely different topic. But they do that a lot, and I think it's very helpful. Are the translations accurate? Yes, yes. Memory especially is actually very good. I've noticed that some people sometimes do not really get a word or two. Not memory, but like other people who try to do this.

But generally, yes, the message is accurate. The whole message is not inaccurate at all. All right. Now, so you're Jewish, but that doesn't mean you have to support Israel's policies. Even many Israeli Jews don't support Israel's policies. When you see the terrible pictures of children dying, number one, do you feel the kinship of blood with these people as your people

when you see them dying, and how does that make you feel? And number two, do you support generally the the military campaign that israel is undertaking i hundred percent i want to start by the the last question i hundred percent support the idf and the military campaign it's it's so i always say this it's when when egypt was involved and waging its war in terror after the muslimhood took over in Egypt around the year 2013. And, you know, we had a wave of terror that basically lasted for about eight years, actually, or about six years. It was horrific. And Egypt acted in a way that was actually not very different from Israel. So they went to the Sinai, you know, the military went to the Sinai,

and they had to have a buffer zone, which was basically a zone that was cleared between Gaza and Egypt. So they had to demolish buildings. They had to demolish houses. They told people, you need to leave these houses, because we're going to demolish these houses, because if we don't, it's too close to the border. And that means that they can be used by smugglers, basically, or Hamas to build tunnels and use these houses as, you know, as basically shelter for them. And they had to have this buffer zone.

And I supported Egypt 100%. I don't see a reason why I would not support Israel, which had just been a victim of a horrific attack that is the scale of which is unknown in the Middle East. I don't know any other country that has experienced a terrorist attack where you had 1,200 people or more killed barbarically and babies taken hostage. I have never seen this anywhere else. So of course I support Israel. I don't see one reason. In fact, I believe as an Egyptian it makes course I support Israel. I don't see one reason. In fact, I believe, as an

Egyptian, it makes sense to support Israel because I have seen my own people killed by terrorists against Hamas, and they were actually involved in the terrorist attacks in Sinai, and now they're involved in the terrorist attacks against Israel. It's the same enemy. I don't see

why I wouldn't. And what about how you feel? Do you still feel the connection as your people when you see the Palestinians dying? Or is that emotional tie broken for you? It was actually

broken even before I finalized my conversion officially, even before I began my conversion officially, because I always had a lot of disagreements with Palestinians. For instance, Yasser Arafat made a comment, and you will find that a lot of Palestinian leaders made comments after President Sadat was assassinated. They made comments that he was a traitor. They made comments that the fact that he signed the peace treaty with Israel, that makes him a traitor. So President Sadat, for me, is somebody that I really admire,

President Sadat and Begin. You know, there are icons that I really feel like we probably won't see any more of them, you know, this kind of leadership in my lifetime. I hope I'm wrong, but I think this is the case. So when somebody says to me, President Sadat is just a traitor, for me, that's completely unacceptable. For me, that's, you know, it's, and this is one of the things, one of many reasons why. Well, I would just say, I mean, I would take the Palestinian point of view here, but Arafat would have viewed Sadat as a traitor because he made peace with Israel without taking care of and insisting that the Palestinians be provided for with a state. So from his point of view, Sadat sold the Palestinians out, right?

Well, from Sadat's point of view, and we have actually, we have his speeches on this. We also have President Mubarak's speeches on this. And they both tell you, we tried to involve the Palestinians in a peace process that would involve them getting an independent state. They completely boycotted this and said, no, we're not engaging. We're not involved. And they completely boycotted this and said no we're not engaging we're not involved and they completely boycotted this and it's just like if you are not if you're going to continue to say no to peace on every single opportunity why should anyone what makes you think that you are entitled to a state yeah well i don't know the history well about Sadat and the Palestinians and what they were rejecting at that time, but I,

but it's definitely true during Mubarak's time, which, which you're describing. I have one more question for you. And then if Dan has anything else for Periel, I've heard two very smart people have opposite opinions on this. The question is how um islamic beliefs radical how how um real are radical islamic beliefs and the question is if iran gets a nuclear bomb

and i think they're going to um is it right to think that these leaders really are looking forward to paradise and would be less cautious about using it because of the paradise in the afterlife? Or is some of that or all of it just for public consumption. And in reality, the leadership of Iran would be just as calculating and cautious as any other leader would be with a nuclear bomb. Which is the truth. I'll just say, for instance, Sam Harris is a big believer that radical Islam is a death cult, as he puts it. And I've spoken to some other people who think that that's really not what it would be like with Iran having a bomb. What do you think?

I think it's really difficult. We have two scenarios here, one of which is basically the Iranians being like Saddam Hussein. Saddam Hussein used to say, listen, I'm going to blow you up. I'm going to do this. I'm absolutely fearless. I'm blah, blah, blah. And he talked a lot. And he talked a lot about their own capabilities, whether it was chemical weapons, biological weapons, or WMDs generally. He talked a lot about this. And he ended up in a position where he was just

too much of a risk, whether he actually owned the WMDs. And this is part of my studies as well, because my MA is in intelligence and national security. So the assessment, a lot of the intelligence assessments that were going on on Saddam, basically, whether he did pose a threat was based on the stuff that he said. He said, we've got this, we can do this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And eventually you had to eliminate this threat. So Iran could be like this. They could be just, you know, like big talker, you know, big mouths, you know, just, just talking a lot about all this. And that could eventually lead to the same end result, having to go and basically bomb them. Or they could really use that nuclear weapon.

And I think, I find that just the fact that we're having this conversation is unacceptable. We should not be having this conversation. We should make sure that they never have a nuclear weapon. We should make sure that they never have any capability to do what they're doing right now. Unfortunately, we've allowed them. President Biden has allowed them

when he took the Houthis off the terrorist list right after he took over. That meant that the Houthis could get more funding. That meant that the Houthis could get more funding from even people in the West because they're no longer terrorists. So, you know, there's no reason why you shouldn't fund them. And he did this against the advice of our allies in the region. And now we've

got the Houthis completely disrupting the Suez Canal, international maritime, and this is what we have. So I think it's a really difficult question. I think everyone is guessing. You will see some people who say, yes, you know, Iran might use it. Some people will say, no, they might not. I think we're judging their intentions here and that's really a dangerous game i think we should just end this conversation by making sure you know what let's eliminate the threat and that's it all right dan you oh i i had a question usually i think when you convert the judaism you get a jewish name um so do you have one and why you uh not using it publicly yes no it's uh so i was asked this question actually i was asked why why didn't i change my name like officially and i think i

didn't change my name because number one the name khalid itself existed before Islam. So my dad, he chose, well, my dad and mom, they chose the name Khalid for me because they named me after this amazing, you know, presumably amazing Muslim military leader. He was, his name was Khalid ibn al-Walid and he was, you know, very successful and fearless and no one could ever defeat him. But ironically, this guy, Khalid ibn Walid, was one of the last people who converted to Islam. He was very stubborn. He kept rejecting Islam. People kept going to him.

You know, the Prophet, the Muslim Prophet Muhammad kept sending people to him, you know, and all this initially campaigned to have him convert to Islam and he refused. He completely refused and continued to refuse. And I think he refused for about eight years and eventually decided, you know what, I'm going to convert to Islam. So in a way, it's actually reclaiming this name.

That's how I see it. Khalid is an Arab name, yes, but it's not necessarily a Muslim name because it existed before Islam. Even Muhammad, when Muhammad was born islam did not exist that's right all right muhammad that name when that he was given even muhammad that name that he was given it's not actually muslim when somebody says to you oh no it's a muslim name hold on a moment he was given this name by his parents before he created islam. Yeah, I think I'm going to name my kid Jesus. I think Jesus is like a Greek version of Joshua or something. I'm not exactly sure what the origin of that is.

It existed before Christianity because they named him Jesus. Well, I don't know because he wasn't – nobody called Jesus Jesus. The word Jesus Jesus I think Yeshua I believe in those days I think so I'm not sure but whatever the name was my Hebrew name is

Moshe Ben Zachariah because my granddad was called Zachariah that's the Arabic version of Zachariah Zachariah and obviously I chose Moshe because I'm Egyptian Zakaria. That's the Arabic version of Zakaria. And obviously I chose Moshe because I'm Egyptian. I'm not planning to cross the Red Sea anytime soon. I'm not planning to even visit the Red Sea anytime soon.

Yeah, that's my name. All right, sir. Well, it's actually been a deep pleasure to meet you. I'll be interested to know how people react to the conversation I expect they'll all see it through their own particular partisan lenses and react accordingly but I think that you have exude very very peaceful

vibes of brotherly love and I hope that everybody senses that I know people will disagree with that because of stuff you said but i'm just talking about the vibe not not not not the critical things you said they that will so so have you ever thought of making aliyah yes i did actually yes i did i did a few times because can i give you can i live in prison but before you say i want to hear this but i just want to give you a... So I live in Britain. But before you say, I want to hear this,

but I just want to give you a little advice. When you do make Aliyah, allow for a little extra time at the airport. Go ahead. Tell us the story. Tell us the story. I think for me, it's... I'm very Middle Eastern in many ways. I like the sunshine.

I like being, you know, chatting, you know, with my hands. You know, I like, you know, this kind of person. You know, it's it's uh i'm very middle eastern in many ways i like the sunshine i like being you know chatting you know with my hands you know i like i like you know this kind of person you know it's not uh britain is is lovely and i love britain and you know this is my home uh but i actually i i keep thinking about making aliyah for many reasons because again i love the sunshine i love i love israelis generally i work with israelis uh day-to-day basis, by the way. I work for an Israeli company, actually. I don't mention this a lot because I don't want any of the hate to be directed towards my colleagues or anyone because that's just not acceptable.

I'm afraid if you go live there that despite the best intentions that you might have a negative experience in some way. I'd be nervous about it. I don't think so. You don't think so? No, I don't think so. I think that one thing that, I mean, I'd be curious as to what you think about this.

I have a very close friend who is Muslim and Egyptian, and she hates Hamas more than any American Westerner that I know because she understands the threat better than anyone I think one of the things we're so frustrated about here in amongst the people who I come into contact with is that people don't seem to understand that Hamas isn't just a threat to Jews. They hate everyone. They want to eliminate everyone. And that seems to be something that's quite lost on the Western public. I agree. And I think for me, it's, it's, I actually, I think for me I actually I phoned basically the church agency

and I asked about Ali especially right after the 7th of October because I felt like what I saw across the UK was not okay for me what was happening was really disturbing the fact that I could see people even on the 7th of October,

members of parliament saying there must be a ceasefire, we must recognize a Palestinian state now. Before Israel responded at all, before there was even a military campaign, when Jews were still being murdered by this terrorist group, they just went out to the streets, not in large numbers, but essentially the message was, you know what? Israel needs not to defend itself. This was their message.

We need to make sure that they do not defend themselves. And that, for me, was a real challenge. So I did phone in, and I just asked about Aliyah. I know that there is a bit of bureaucracy in Israel. I know this for a fact, and that's a challenge that a lot of people do recognize. But the main obstacle for me is that we have little kids now, and those little kids are very used to their granny, their granddad, and they just live here and this is their home.

So that's the problem. And my wife wants to be in her family because she's English, so that's why she wants to be in England for now. But I really do hope that at some point in my life, I'm hoping that when the kids are a little older, they will go to Israel. I'll take them to Israel and they'll just love it. And they feel like, you know what?

Why don't we live here for a few years? That's my secret plan, if you will. I hope they're able to integrate nicely. I just imagine like being like half in each, but you know, the Arabic people are resentful because you became Jewish and the Jewish people view suspiciously. And, uh, but, uh, maybe I'm, I'm unduly pessimistic, I guess in a particular neighborhood, whenever he gets to know you, sorry, go ahead. Did you want to say something? Did I interrupt you? Yeah.

Sorry. I'll tell you what I think. I'll tell you what I think. I'll tell you what I think on suspicions or, you know, somebody who's not, you know, who wouldn't perceive me very positively. I honestly do look sometimes at the chief rabbinate of Israel, and I think something is wrong there. You know, something really is terribly wrong there. And that's a challenge for me because I feel like the whole conversation before the 7th of october around you know liberal jews being you know not really given aliyah or you know their conversions not accepted in in israel there is a challenge there but equally i also recognize that

there is a challenge within liberal jewish movements in the diaspora. I have seen a lot of stuff. For instance, I'll mention one example. In the British liberal Jewish movement, there were a few years, actually quite many years, when people did not celebrate at all Purim. It wasn't something they celebrated because they viewed this as immoral that we celebrated the triumph over our enemies and we massacred our enemies. And this was immoral. And they decided, you know what? The liberal Jewish movement in the UK will not celebrate Purim.

And that was, for me, a challenge because it means that you get to pick and choose. And if everyone gets to pick and choose, what is actually left of Judaism? Right. It becomes a million versions. That was a serious challenge for me. So there are challenges on both sides. And I recognize it's going to be sometimes not a very pleasant experience in some aspects. But that's life.

All right, sir. Well, if you ever get to New York, we'd love to meet you in person. Any final questions? No. All right. Well, it's very nice to meet you, we'd love to meet you in person. Any final questions? No. All right. Well, I hope it's very nice to meet you. I hope you had a pleasant interview. I hope you get some sleep now.

And maybe we'll have you on again at some point in the future, if you wouldn't mind. Yes, absolutely. I'd love to. I have actually friends in New York. So I'm planning to visit quite soon. I hope I'll definitely come over. And thanks for having me. Oh, absolutely. I'd love to. I have actually friends in New York. So I'm planning to visit quite soon. I hope I'll definitely come over and thanks for having me. Oh, fantastic. Periel will give you my phone number so we can hook up when you get to New York. Oh, that'd be great. Okay, thank you. Bye. Thank you.

Shalom, shalom. Bye.