The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Derek Gaines, Eric Peterson, Keith Robinson, and Dov Davidoff

Episode Date: May 11, 2018

Derek Gaines, Keith Robinson, and Dov Davidoff are all New York City-based standup comedians. They may be seen regularly performing at the Comedy Cellar. Eric Peterson is a Washington, D.C.-based diversity consultant for the firm Cook Ross.

You're listening to The Comedy Cellar, live from the table, on the Riotcast Network, riotcast.com. And this is The Comedy Cellar Show on XM Series 99 Raw Dog. Noam is not here today, that's why you're hearing my voice doing the introduction. He had an emergency meeting in Las Vegas. Yes. Couldn't Skype it in, I guess. Yeah. But he, so he had to fly out there. He, it's to do with the Comedy Cellar

Vegas. We opened a room, well, not we, but the Comedy Cellar opened a room. You could say we. We, I mean. You've earned that. Okay. I'm part of the Comedy Cellar family, if not an official, you know, owner or anything like that. But the Comedy Cellar family, if not an official owner or anything like that. But the Comedy Cellar opened up a club in Vegas, and already there's problems.

Apparently, Noam and the owners of the Rio Hotel are at odds. Odds. So I don't know what's happening, but apparently everything was not laid out, I assume, in the contract explicitly as it should have been. That's my guess. All right. Well, Eric doesn't know or care what the hell you're talking about. Anyway, I just wanted to lay down that introduction to explain Noam's absence. I'm filling in for Noam.

You're filling in for me. I'm filling in for Noam. Understood, yes. That's Doug Davidoff, who is a regular on the show, and he's filling in for me. I'm filling in for you, that's right. And I am filling in for Noam.

So you have big shoes to fill? Me, not so much. We're here also with the great Stephen Calabria, our producer. Aloha. Who stops by from time to time. We have Derek Gaines, comedy telecomedian. How's it going? And host of Broke-Ass Game Show on MTV.

Is that correct? Can we not do that? That got canceled. We have with us the former host of Broke-Ass Game Show. I'm on a new show now, The Last OG with Tracy Morgan on HBS. The Last OG? Yeah, I'm doing that now. That sounds... It's a real black show on HBS. Yes, it Last OG with Tracy Morgan on TBS. The Last OG? Yeah, I'm doing that now. That sounds...

It's a real black show on TBS. Black, yes, it does. A real 10 o'clock show. We'll discuss that. And congratulations on your new show. You're working on it. That's great. But we'll discuss that perhaps later.

Right, right, right. We brought in with us, we have Eric Peterson. Hello. Now, Eric Peterson is a diversity coach and implicit bias instructs something. How would you describe your job? Well, consultant. I usually just go with diversity consultant. But most of what I do, most of what people want to hire me to do is to come in and teach classes about implicit bias and cultural competence.

So that's what I spend my time doing. And the reason we invited him on is because of the Starbucks. I was wondering. Yes. Yes. Starbucks diversity, you know, controversy. Yeah, let's do it. They, of course, just by way of review, if anybody has been on planet Mars,

Starbucks kicked out two black men who didn't order anything, not so much as a kind bar, not so much as a... Well, they just kick just kick him out. Nothing. Not a man of lean. Called the cops. I mean, that's the thing. Didn't just kick him out. And under two minutes. Called the police. And under two fucking minutes. That's what killed me. Why did they call the cops?

Why did they call the cops? Because... I don't mind kicking somebody out if they're just hanging out in my store and asked to go to the bathroom and didn't buy anything. I don't mind that. Well, but Starbucks kind of has a... I probably wouldn't call the cops, but I don't care what color you are. If you're hanging out in my store and asked to go to the bathroom and didn't buy anything. I don't mind that. Well, but Starbucks kind of has a... I probably wouldn't call the cops, and I don't care what color you are. If you're hanging out in my store

and I'm paying 10 grand a month rent and you don't buy anything, go, can I go to the bathroom? And I say, are you going to buy anything? And then you don't and just continue to sit there. Yeah, but Starbucks does it differently. I might throw you the fuck out too.

Yeah, Starbucks though, she called the cops. Oh, of course. Can people hang out in Starbucks all the time? I mean, people hang out in Starbucks all the time. They show up. They got work desks. They bring their laptop.

They do have desks. They do their work. And it might take them two hours before they order a cup of coffee. And that's just kind of normal. It sounds over the top. It's one store. It's one manager. What kind of people were they?

What kind of guy was it? They were future real estate agents. They were nice guys. Gotcha. They were waiting for a white dude to talk about some real estate shit that was about to go down. It was a business meeting. It wasn't anybody starting trouble and then walking around to go to the bathroom. No, no.

All he said is, can I get a key? So these two guys were waiting for a friend, and they say when their friend got there, we're going to order some coffee. But in the meantime, one of them had to go to the restroom. They're waiting for their friend. They said, hey, can I get a key to the restroom? And they said, well, restrooms are for customers you need to order something or i'm gonna need you to leave right and they sat down they're like well we're not leaving but you know we'll we'll sit and wait for our friend yeah and the thing is about i mean starbucks

look starbucks has a really long history of trying to do some really good things about diversity so i'm not gonna you know it's this this is not a Starbucks problem. This is an American problem, right? This whole thing about, you know, ooh, there's a black person in my store. I better call the cops. That certainly isn't Starbucks policy, but Starbucks realizes they've got an issue because it's just because they've done good things

in the past, they need to obviously teach some folks who work for Starbucks some things about implicit bias. Are you teaching that seminar that's happening on the 28th? No, I'm not Eric Holder. I thought you were the guy. The 29th. March 29th. Eric Holder. No one Monday.

Cheryl Eiffel from the NAACP. Heather McGee who runs demos. I mean, they've got some big names. Well, we couldn't get those guys. No, so you got me instead. But we did want to discuss, because I'm sure everybody would love to be a fly on the wall at that Starbucks diversity training session.

As I know, I would be interested to know what kind of thing goes on. Yeah, that's my question. What are they going to do? And that's where you come in to tell us what is a training session in jail. I sound like they ain't going to do nothing. They're going to sign in and go to the movies. They're going to sign in and leave. Well, you know, okay, so because they have all these big names, right,

I'm assuming, and I don't know a thing about it, but I'm assuming it's going to be some kind of simulcast, right, where there's got, you know, some folks in Seattle. They're going to basically do a bunch of TED Talks about unconscious bias. They're going to, you know, make all their employees kind of sit and watch this thing and perhaps have something. If I were running it, if I were running it, I'd have some kind of discussion for store managers to lead with their employees so they can all talk about it after it was over. And I'm sure this is true. I'm not, I don't know anybody at Starbucks. Well, I do know

some folks at Starbucks, but I don't know what's, exactly what's happening. But this would not be the end of the road. It's not like they're going to do this for two hours on May 29th and then just stop and expect that they fixed everything. That's not the way this works. But that's what it sounded like. Sounded like he was going to do this for two hours on May 29th and then just stop and expect that they fixed everything. That's not the way this works. That's what it sounded like. It sounded like he was going to roll the big TV out

like the substitute teachers do. Watch this and go home. No, this is going to be something that's going to be a conversation they're going to be having for a while. Can you explain briefly... Racism solved. Can you explain briefly what... An hour and a half later.

What unconscious bias is? Sure, sure. So basically, this is a kind of, it's new. You know, it's been around probably for about seven, eight years now. The idea that there's a different way to talk about diversity. The way we used to do it was kind of bring out the big stick and just kind of do a blame and shame and say, y'all are horrible people because you're all racist and sexist and don't you feel bad about yourselves. And that didn't work so well. People would have a big emotional experience and then two weeks

later they'd be like i fucking hated that class um so we started doing it in a different way and what we know from a little bit of brain science and a little bit of social psychology is that we basically have two brains right so you have an automatic brain and you have a deliberate brain and your automatic brain just comes up with shit and just feeds it to your consciousness. And this is what happens when a black man is in his grandma's backyard holding

a cell phone and the cops are like, but it was a gun. It was like, well, you might have thought it was a gun because you've got some connection in your head between black people and danger. And so in that moment, you know, you said... That's Chris Rock's ATM joke, right? Who am I looking for?

That's the joke. I'm looking for the media. I'm looking for the media. Yeah, yeah, that's the joke. Yeah, exactly, that's it. Right, but how do you mitigate that without... I mean, over the course of time, I live in Bed-Stuy. I can read the difference between a dangerous situation...

Me too. ...and not over the course of time. But how do you stop somebody from some sort of... You know, I tell you, so Starbucks and obviously the Stephon Clark story are two completely different things, right? One, somebody died and the other, somebody, you know, I mean

honestly, call the cops. And how do you do that without crossing into some like bullshit PC territory where we can't be honest with one another about the experience where I'm supposed to implicitly go the other way and just go, oh, no, everything's okay. If something's not okay, whether you're black, white, Puerto Rican, or in between, if you're coming down that street, I'm not going to wait and find out whether or not I'm guilty of implicit bias.

And anybody who's ever lived in the street knows that. Yeah. Bias is basically there, right? Because it keeps you safe and it saves your life. Yes. You know, so I always tell people in my classes, right? Think about the last time that you slammed on your brakes. Yes.

Right? That was bias. Something happened to you and like before you even knew what was going on, your foot was on the brake and that car was stopping. And that's what bias is. So we try to tell people like, look, you have bias. It doesn't make you a bad person. Yeah.

It just means you have this ability for your brain to make some decisions on your behalf without asking you first. It's pattern recognition. And so with something like a cop or with something like a store manager at Starbucks or something, what you really have to do is just kind of, first of all, it has to be in the training. It's too late to go to a cop who's been on the beat for 10 years and say, now we're going to do bias training. Because they've got their patterns are kind of set. When we bring cops on, we need to say, okay, before you fire your weapon, you need absolute confirmation that that is a gun.

Right. You know, and it doesn't matter. And the thing is with cops, I mean, look, I know some cops. I've worked with some folks in law enforcement doing bias work. And, you know, there are a lot of good people out there, right, who are wearing badges and doing this. But it is a job where you sign up for a dangerous job. Yeah.

You know, so the idea that, you know, oh, I was scared, so I shot before I thought. And the person you shot was Tamir Rice, who is a 12-year-old kid with a toy gun that you shot two seconds after you showed up. Yeah. That's not cool. No, it's not.

That doesn't work. You know, so it's not cool. No, it's not. That doesn't work. You know, so it's just, you know, it's taking a moment. And if you're a cop, that moment could be a life and death moment. But in a way, that's your job. Well, so now how might you test? Is there a fun test we can take

to determine whether we have an implicit bias? There is, actually. If you want to go to projectimplicit.com, well, it's a website thing. How can you not have an implicit bias? You is, actually. If you want to go to projectimplicit.com I thought we could do it here. How can you not have an implicit bias? You have some. You have some. The test basically teaches you kind of what your patterns are. So it shows you this picture

in the middle of your computer screen and then you pick words on either side of the picture and it'll say something like, okay, when we show you a picture of a man, we want you to choose the word that means profession or career, when we show you a picture of a man, we want you to choose the word that means profession or career. When we show you a picture of a woman, we want you to choose the word that means family or home. That's usually pretty easy for people to do. Then when you go to the next step and you say, we're going to show you a picture of a man, I want you to choose the word that means family or home.

And we're going to show you a picture of a woman and choose the word that means profession or career. That's usually harder. 75% of the people who take that test find that harder and it takes them longer to do it. And they will show up as having a slight, moderate, or strong connection between men in work and family at home and women in home. And obviously this has ramifications for women in the workplace, right? We kind of have this belief that men take their careers more seriously or kind of belong at work. And women who have families, their family is always going to be their top priority, whereas a man, his job is always going to be his top priority.

Well, but can you say that there's nothing to that? Of course there's something to that. It's huge. You know, pattern recognition over the course of years. Sure. How many classes you will have to teach. But you could come across a woman who is married to a stay-at-home dad, and she is the sole breadwinner for her family. Yeah, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to make a joke about somebody who isn't married to a stay-at-home dad.

Because on average, you're not a stay-at-home dad. I bet you – Sure. Come on. How many guys are stay-at-home dads? Well, actually, it's funny. They're more and more. You're talking about 3%, 4%?

But I've met a lot of women in the course of my work who say, look, I'm a woman. I'm married to a stay-at-home dad. I have to remind people of that and stand on a soapbox and scream about it all the time because I am the sole breadwinner. So don't tell me to go home so I can be with my children. The kids are fine. Dad's home. I want to work. I need this promotion.

I am the sole breadwinner for my family. So the idea is that, yeah, patterns do happen. But not everyone you meet is going to match up with your pattern. No, but 95% of them will. I mean, in that case. So you always have to

kind of be open to the idea that maybe this one won't. Right, but I'm not going to, I don't want to be inhibited humor-wise. If we're making a joke about humor. No, I'm just talking about IC.

Yeah, I don't work with a lot of comedians until tonight. This is fun, though. You go, go. We'll say whatever. I'm just, you know. Yeah, you know, but when I'm just talking about ICS. Yeah, I don't work with a lot of comedians. Till tonight. This is fun, though. Yeah, with the last... No, you're going to go. We'll say whatever. I'm just, you know...

Yeah, you know, but when I'm... This is another thing that you teach that would be in, like, a seminar of implicit bias. Yeah, yeah. This idea that, you know, you have your automatic brain. It's going to, you know, tell you shit. It doesn't make you a bad person.

It just... It's a reflection of the world that you live in. But when you're making really important decisions that you have the time to take that can really affect somebody else's career, you need to slow down a little bit. And that's all we're saying.

That's all we're saying. But you run into a situation, now I don't know what this woman at Starbucks, the manager, was thinking when she threw these two guys out. It does sound like it was racially motivated, but, you know, I can't read her mind. But it could be that she's just, it's possible, she's a racist. Thank you, Dan Adler.

What we're talking about, you're talking about implicit bias, but racism is a whole other thing. Absolutely. That's a lot harder to cure. Yeah. Well, as Starbucks will say, she is no longer with the company. So that's the way you cure it from Starbucks' angle, as you say. Again, and I want to say that I don't know. It could be this woman throws everybody out.

Maybe. I don't know that. But it's weird because it's like how many timid white women are you going to have to teach? Because I just watched this clip about this student at Yale. She fell asleep in her living room in the dorm. And the girl called the cops and just started waking up, telling her to go back. And then the cops, they'll see her ID. Showed them the ID, unlocked her own door.

They still gave her shit because she was a black student at Yale. And she fell asleep in a public dorm space. So how do we heal that? How do we get them to think with their other mind instead of that automatic bullshit? Because that's stupid. Well, the automatic brain is going to work no matter what. The point is that you can mitigate for that, right? You just have to think about it.

And one of the questions is, if you are tempted to call the cops because someone fell asleep in a dorm room or is sitting at a table in Starbucks, maybe just ask yourself, okay, what if this person was a woman? What if this person was white? What if? What if? What if? And if the answer is no matter what, whatever they're doing is just flat up wrong, I would call the cops, then I guess you call the cops.

But if the answer is, no, I probably might have a different feeling about it, but here's what I'm reacting to, then you just question yourself. It seems to me a fairly... I think Starbucks, if that's all, no, I probably, you know, I might have a different feeling about it. But here's what I'm reacting to. Then you just question yourself. It seems to me a fairly, I think Starbucks, if that's all it is, I think their day that they take, I think it's too much. Just five minutes. Here's what you do. You see somebody that's of color, which is mostly what we're talking about, right? The Asians pretty much, no one's.

It's true. It's 100% true. Is there any bias training we need with regard to Asians? It seems like they're cool. Well, you know, it's funny. In corporate America, yeah, you do, because a lot of times people assume that Asians are not quote-unquote go-getters,

that they're not... I've never heard that. They're not, like, super, like, ambitious or, you know, gregarious or you can't, you know... I've never heard that. I've always associated them with going after things. I've associated them with having immigrant parents that make sure they show up

and work hard. Hard workers, but not necessarily... Statistically, they're doing better than white people in America. Yeah, maybe. And that's because there's a culture there that says, yeah, you will go to school. Correct. It is cultural. And, you know, but it's more kind of stuff. And, you know, but it's more of that kind of visible, gregarious,

extroverted, who are we going to put out there and stand up in front of the whole company and get everyone riled up about this new, you know, project we're doing. Not me. Well, and, you know, sometimes Asians have a hard time kind of breaking into that whole, because the cultural stereotype is they're quiet, they, you know, they work hard,

but they sit at their desk and they're very studious and they're not very, quote unquote, outgoing. Yes. And that's just, you're right. I mean, the stereotypes I think that black people and Latino people face in this country are harsher. It's a tougher hill. But just about every kind of difference you can name, there are some stereotypes that kind of get associated with that and some assumptions that people will make. Right. you can name, there are some stereotypes that kind of get associated with that and some assumptions that people will make. Right, but some of those stereotypes will inhibit

you from achieving certain types of things in the world, whereas some are just sort of cultural. For an Asian person, it's not going to stop them from getting a job in most contexts, in most scenarios. Whereas a black or Puerto Rican dude, that could hurt them

in a way that's much more immediate. Oh, yeah. You know, there's this study that came out of MIT, right, where they sent out these identical resumes to companies that said,

we want diversity. We want more, you know, people of color working at our organization. And they sent them identical resumes with the names on the top, Emily, Greg,

Lakeisha, and Jamal. Okay. Emily and Greg got a whole lot of requests for interviews, and Lakeisha and Jamal ended up on a whole lot of reject piles based on a name. Everything else on that resume was the same. But that may not be color bias as much as Lakeisha bias. Yeah, there's some cultural bias.

Culturally, a woman named Lakeisha we might associate with a certain socioeconomic background. Sure. Whereas if it was, say, an African name like Kwame or something. Adam Abutu or something. Well, something that didn't connote ghetto. Sure.

But I know genius Lakeishas. And that's the fuck they're called. There may well be any genius Lakeishas, but I actually never metQuisha's. And that's the fuck don't come. There may well be any genius LaQuisha's, but I actually never met a LaQuisha. I know many LaQuisha's. I know many wonderful LaQuisha's. That's like a dog named Rover. It's like a stereotypical name.

I've never seen one. I have never met a dog named Rover, but I know some LaQuisha's too. Point is, they might be being prejudiced against the name Lakeisha. But whatever it is, Lakeisha had the exact same resume, same school, same degree, same grade, point average, same everything. And this company said, we want diversity. We're looking for people.

And even in that initial scan, you see a name like Emily or Greg, you make up a story about them, right? The automatic brain just goes, okay, ding, this is who this person is. They came right off the set of the Brady Bunch, and they're going to come to work. Or you get a Lakeisha or a Jamal, and you say, maybe not going to... And, you know, with all of these

resumes, probably we're not describing a superstar, because believe me, if Lakeisha went to Yale and was summa cum laude and valedictorian of her class, they would hire her so damn fast. Yes. You know, but if Lakeisha just went to a state school, got a degree, worked hard, doing her thing, Emily's going to do the exact same thing and have a much easier time getting a job. In the words of Chris Rock, black people have to fly to what white people can walk to. There you go. So, therefore, I understand.

I get it. Yeah. And that's part of what me and people like me were trying to kind of do our bit to kind of fix out there. So let's assume that somebody has these implicit biases and they're irrational. And how then would you go about curing them? Heal the world, Eric. Heal it. I know, but you're really talking about discretion. You're trying to teach people

discretion, to make a distinction between somebody who is, who, if they feel threatened, they have to remember that to make an assessment about the individual, because if you just go on color, then everybody's just going to be calling the cops.

Oh, yeah, right. But at the same time, we can't get so frightened that we do make a distinction about danger, regardless of what color the danger's coming from. Right? Danger is danger, right? But the idea, but Stephon Clark was not endangering anybody walking

around his grandma's backyard. Let's talk about this in the macro. I think we need to distinguish between cops who don't have much time to make decisions and corporate people that have a lot of time to make decisions. We could excuse, perhaps, in certain cases, people making decisions based on incomplete information if they don't have a lot of time. If you're walking down the street and you see some guy that looks menacing to you and you want to cross the street, you know, that's a different situation.

Yeah, so the first thing I tell people... Than a guy that's got a stack of resumes that has a bit of time to really get to know each applicant. Okay, so two things. You know, one, yes. Would you agree with that, Derek Gaines? Yes. Okay.

So, you know, cops have a different kind of job and they have to make a different kind of decision. What I tell people all the time is the best thing you can do if you think that bias might be getting in the way is just slow down. Slow your thinking down. Now, cops don't always have that time, but to my earlier point, they are cops. They signed up for this job,

and their job is to protect and serve the citizenry, not shoot unarmed black people because they felt scared. You know, I mean, that's just, at some point, that's got to be not okay. Of course it's not okay. But how's these classes going to change this? Because it's been going on. Yeah, well, with cops, I think the answer is, yeah, it's when they get in. When they join the force, it's part of their training.

When they learn how to discharge a weapon, they also learn, here are the five things you need to be very, very clear of before that weapon gets discharged. And we're not necessarily giving... We've got military-grade weaponry with these cops and not military training. Unfortunately, you might be asking too much. We need X number of cops. You're talking about hiring people with almost superhuman calmness and superhuman abilities to make decisions under pressure.

And we've got to fill these police departments. Then maybe cops don't need AK-47s. Well, I don't think they have AK-47s. Nobody's getting shot by cops with AK-47s. Well, military-grade weaponry sometimes. No, they're getting shot with pistols. I've never heard of a cop pulling out a machine gun and shooting anybody. I've never even heard of a single story.

Those are crazy. White boys would just be shooting up churches. Now, where did they get that from? I don't know where they get the AR-15s from, but cops are usually just taking it. I've seen pictures of cops with tanks. When Ferguson was going on, there was just some serious, crazy stuff. I get that because it was a riot after that. Yeah, but on average, cops

are not shooting anybody with AK-47s. But a lot of cops used to walk around with a billy club. And I'm not saying that we can go back to that necessarily, but if you're going

to have the weapon, then you need to have the training. And if we don't have the time or the expense to do it, then that's where money needs to go

because people are dying. To nightsticks? To nightsticks. No, I mean to training. I'd rather turn the conversation more toward the corporate context. Yeah, the corporate thing.

Which I think is more realistic that we can do something about it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think we've got to do something about both. But yes, I tend to work in the corporate sphere. And there, you know, you say, yeah, someone's got a stack of resumes. They've got more time. They might not think that because we're all just working like this. And so it's to take the time

and to kind of tell corporations what I'll tell people who have access to kind of levers of power is you've got to give people the time to make these decisions well I have a question and it's for Derek, I don't think my microphone is working I can hear you

Derek, two part question number one, have you ever do you think missed out on an opportunity in comedy because you're black? And number two, do you think that that's a widespread problem in comedy in general? Well, have I missed out on opportunities? Small opportunities, like little clubs in racist towns that I didn't get to play. But on the big end, nah. I did this because you can be the most diverse in this shit. So I didn't get to play. But on the big end, nah. I did this because you can be the most diverse in this shit. So I don't think I lost.

But I think maybe content does make a booker judge what he puts in his club on a Friday and Saturday night. Because the whole thing is, are you a Def Jam style comic or are you a Comedy Central style comic? And that's what they ask you.

And I've gotten that. And maybe that's, and if I go, well, I've done the such and such and such and such clubs, automatically in the black clubs in different black cities, he's going to go, oh, you're a Def Jam type. I'm not going to do you. And you can be funny as shit. You can kill, you can eat the host's lunch and the feature's lunch. And they'll be like,

but still. But they have a right to decide which style of comedy they want. And they can. So you kind of just got to take that on the chin and just keep moving and go, maybe I don't want to play Timonium anymore. They have that a bit in white comedy culture where they have those alt guys. Everybody's wearing New Balance sneakers. And then you have Andrew Dice. There's more street.

There's range. There's range. But when you come in black, you really got to. I'm telling you, you should write. i never had a problem writing good jokes so that's why i think i've got a little further in the club scene but they but they do go are you a def jam style comic or can you do mainstream but also the keys they know they know they demographic if you write and you're funny it's more likely it's gonna work out yeah of course you're gonna get a booker who won't you know do whatever one point. But if you're funny

and you're not just jumping around cursing at people, whether you're white, black, or in between. You've got to have some content. I'd say, I mean, stand-up comedy, which Eric, maybe you're not familiar with our world, but I mean, you want diversity. Baby, you got it. We got everything here.

We got chicks that look like dudes We got Black dudes and white dudes We got a dude There's this George Luke guy We got a few girls We got everything

But what do we do with pattern recognition That's just generally the case right If you assume the average white person can't dance You assume well That's generally the case, right? Listen, if you assume the average white person can't dance, you assume well. That's generally the case. It's true. I know a few white people that can dance, but it's very rare. It's a majority.

Jeremy Lin could play some ball. It doesn't mean the average Asian dude's getting into the NBA. Eric, I think, would agree with you. I think. But what he's saying is if you have the time, and typically you do, to make a more informed decision, you must then get more information.

You may be right statistically. Typically, people see what they expect to see sometimes more so than what's there. Confirmation bias is the word for that. Exactly, right? So, if you have this belief that absolutely no white people

can dance, you could be staring at a white person who's a really good dancer and you don't see a good dancer because that's been formed in your head already. How many Jewish girls did Dov not take home because he felt he wouldn't get a blowjob? And he lost out. That was a good joke. Thank you.

Anyhow. Jewish women are very passionate. That's one thing I will say. I'm trying to think. Very passionate. Derek, it sounds to me like you've been with a few Jewish women, and I applaud you. Thank you, man. It's New York City. You know, I say. They're not biased.

I'm saying. I'm not. I don't. I'm not. That doesn't bother me now. So I do want to talk about, okay, so Dove's point is that, well, maybe sometimes statistics are correct. Not sometimes. A lot of the times.

Maybe the average Asian is more or less extroverted, for example. I used to go to a boxing gym, and the black trainer, little young black kids would come in, and he would tell them to pick their pants up. He was a black guy. Uh-huh. And his point was he was communicating to them the value of being seen as somebody who isn't walking in like that. And if we do that, then you're communicating. I also noticed, too, all of this, it's not color. It's culture. I noticed Jamaican guys looking at American black guys and Nigerian black guys looking at American black guys differently.

Nigerian black guys often have a perspective about American black people like they're not working hard enough. Of course. I know that. On average, white people in this country don't really... They're putting, I think, black into a box. There are a number of different kinds of

black people. Oh, absolutely. And so I would like it to be more a part of the national conversation that it isn't always about the color. It's the culture. And if we can get that ingrained, then you're less likely to make sort of snap judgments about people. Well, good luck. That is beautiful. Yeah, no, it's hard to do.

Yeah, no. I mean, these are all big questions, right? We're not trying to do something easy. But what would you tell your corporate clients, say, in the hiring? What do you deal mostly in? Customer relations or hiring or both? I would say I spend most of my time with what I call talent management, right? So everything from who to interview to who to hire to who to bring on, who to promote, how we write performance assessments, who's getting mentored, who's getting kind of pushed up the corporate ladder,

all the ways that we kind of manage people and their careers from the day you get a call to interview to your last day at the company. That's the majority of the kind of things that I'll talk about. Eric, when you see a guy in an affliction shirt, you're not thinking. What's an affliction shirt? You know, those big, loud, an affliction shirt. You're not thinking. What's an affliction shirt? You know, those big, loud, and affliction shirts. It's like,

In a brand? Yeah. But like, yeah, there'll be like some, like, I grew up around a lot of white trash,

and so there's a way a white trash dude looks when he gets dressed up to go out. I know that fucking look. And, and I'm gonna make a snap judgment every time.

Now, it may be that this is the one individual who's gotten heavy into Latin philosophy, but for the most part, it's a guy from Jersey with a specific view set. And no matter how much fucking training I get, I know what goes on in that community.

And so, at some point, I just go, come on. Some of this is just common sense shit. Yeah, you can't look at people because of their color. You have to look at the way they're behaving and speak to them and then make a decision. And so we also have to be able to do that regardless of what color you are.

That is a mature mindset. Not everybody's as mature as you are. I don't think Eric would deny that there's certain clues that you might especially in a... No, Eric was thinking, he'd be thinking white trash, but he wouldn't say it out loud. Yeah, that would be a career-limiting move for me.

Yeah, you got a lot to... I got to probably, you know, use different... But unless we tell people, you see it. So, yeah, because you know people. This is sociology to the fucking core right now, so you know. But unless we tell some of these people, unless I tell some of those white trash dudes I grew up with how other people see you. The reason that boxing trainer was telling these kids to pull up your pants and behave in a certain way isn't because he's racist. It's because he knows they have a better shot at a job later in life.

Yeah. You know, I was teaching a woman yesterday and we were talking about this whole. But we don't talk about that. That isn't part of the national consciousness. We just hear all the touchy racial shit without talking about the cultural component. And, you know, sure. Okay, so if you couldn't tell

already, those of you out there in Radio Land, I'm a white dude. I am probably not going to be the one to say, hey, you, pull up your pants. No, of course not. That's me getting out of my lane. No, no, but you can have the conversation with black leaders or with Puerto Rico, whoever

you have to have conversations with. Just like, have you read the book Hillbilly Elegy? You know, if we could break this down and stop making it about so much about color. Hillbilly Elegy is the dude that grew up in West Virginia. He ended up going to Yale. He had some other grandmother that was an influencer or whatever. And he talked about the lies we all tell ourselves. These guys with Oxycontin habits talking about how they want to work hard, but there are no jobs.

All white people he's talking about. Yeah. In West Virginia. Toothless because they're growing up on Mountain Dew. And nobody's fucking doing anything about it. But we're not supposed to say, listen, there are some components to white trash culture that are very unhealthy, are going to lead to a lot of failure. Tell it to

every group. The only people not having this problem in this country are the Asian children of immigrants, you know, these immigrants that come over with this ready-made mindset. But there's a lot, I feel like a lot's not being said. Your points are valid, Doug,

but Eric is not in that business. Eric is in the business of another business. I get them by the time they're out of college and they've already got their job working in their cubicle with their laptop. It's a little different, but I mean,

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. You're digging back to make it better. They already, in their head, they have me seen already. When I was 13, I was already considered a super predator. Hillary Clinton called us

black 13-year-olds, 12-year-olds, anybody super predator. It's like, wow. Corporately, what the fuck are you going to do? But to really try to change this, I want to, that's a, you're going to be working the rest of your goddamn life. Oh, it'll go beyond me. I mean, this work will outlive me. Yeah.

You know, but there's this, and it can feel pretty hopeless sometimes. What would you say, I want to know what you would say if you were involved, and I know they didn't invite you. I think it was an oversight on their part. The Starbucks you. I think it was an oversight on their part. The Starbucks people invited you. I think it was an oversight on their part, Starbucks. They're not getting the best. They're not getting the best. It could have been you.

They're still going to be throwing out black people. Am I the best? Let's say yes. You're pretty good. You're the best at this table. If Starbucks had invited you in to clean up this town and to make sure that something like what happened, where was it, in Philly?

Philly. What happened in Philly to make sure, your job, make sure this doesn't happen again. You go in there and what do you say and do? Well, you know, you start off by saying, look, every action that you take while you are wearing that green apron, you take on behalf of the company.

And this is what the company expects. And I think that's what they're probably going to end up doing really in this two-hour thing is just by shutting down and making everyone experience something. And everyone now who is a Starbucks employee on May 29th, 2018 is going to be able to look at each other and say, remember when we had to do that thing and we had to listen to Eric Holder talk about, you know, they're going to remember that, you know?

And so it is kind of a statement, not only for the folks inside, but they also had to do something pretty visible to react. They didn't have to, but they did. I think, you know, so that's, they decided to take it seriously and say, we're going to do something big, visible, the optics of it were really, really terrible. So they're doing whatever. What would you say to that manager? What would you say to that manager? If you wanted to make sure that manager

say you felt she was rehabilitatable and you wanted to make sure she didn't do that again how would you go about it? If I had a chance to talk to her I would sit her down and say what were you thinking?

Not in an accusatory kind of way but really, truly, what was going on in your mind? What made you think that calling the cops was a logical next step for two people who were just sitting down?

Did you see the video? I saw it. I didn't see anything about it. The woman who was taking the whole thing on her camera, which is how we know about this, there was this white girl who was sitting in the whole thing on her camera, which is how we know about this, right? There was this white girl who was sitting in Starbucks, pulled out her phone, started recording the whole thing. Good alliance. She and everyone around them were telling the cops

they weren't doing anything. Like, what are you doing? They weren't doing anything. So this chick, she's just batting. It's not a reasonable situation. Well, I mean, you know. Is it possible that she had a conversation with these two men, she said, bathrooms are for customers only, and maybe they said to her just under their breath, fuck you.

You know, for example. Maybe possible. And nobody heard it because it was under their breath. And she's like, you know what, in that case, you would agree that they have to go. I think that would have come out in this story, though. That's where it came out. If that happened, then it seems reasonable. If somebody says, hey, fuck you, I'd say, you're out.

I don't care what color you are. And that might be something. Yeah, and that's the thing. If that happened and it was two white guys doing the exact same thing. Absolutely. Then you would do. Yeah, if that's a line. I'm not here to tell you where the line is.

But wherever that comes across, then you do what you do. But it sounded like this guy just said very calmly, I'm going to stick around and wait for my friend. In this case, it sounds like the overreact. We have with us, just arrived, Mr. Keith Robinson, a frequent guest on our show. The great, the late, great Keith Robinson. And he is chomping at the bit to say something,

and knowing Keith, he's going to be irascible when he starts talking. But, you know, we have so many of these stereotypes that are also like, when you walk into a strip club and you see a girl on a pole, do you think she had great parents? Maybe. Maybe she did. Yeah, some of them just like to dance. Well, Dub, no.

We get your point, Dub. There are certain stereotypes that might be true in certain situations. 99% of the time. We're dealing with. I think girls in porn. What do you think? I want this girl teaching my daughter how to conduct themselves. Get the fuck out of here.

We're dealing with people... But Eric's job is people that make hasty decisions. Eric's doing a great job. I've heard a couple of stories. A couple. This is a way that some girls work their way through college. You never meet them, though. I keep hearing the story. Are they going to tell you the story

after they get their college degree? Are they going to run around saying, oh, and by the way, I danced around a pole for four years when I went to school. I've met strippers and to a person,

wonderful individuals, generous. Yes, lovely. They are wonderful people. I love a lot of them. When you meet them outside the strip club context, strippers have two modes.

They're taking your money or they're giving you money. Yeah. Those are the two modes I've noticed. Strippers have two modes. They're taking your money or they're giving you money. Those are the two modes I've noticed. I was once treated to dinner by a prostitute. Off-duty prostitute. I believe every word you're saying. A lot of strippers don't have a problem with saying that they were strippers.

Correct. Like Cardi B was a stripper. And now she's making some money. We're talking about pattern recognition. We're talking about how we're supposed to not judge people reflexively because of one thing or another. Implicit bias. Well, what we're talking about is taking the time to get as much information as we can. Right.

So that we don't judge off our first impression when we might have time. And let me just be clear. You know, what we teach people all the time is that first impression is going to happen. Yes. It's going to happen. You can't actually stop that. That's the absolute brain. So we never talk about erasing bias.

And I never say you're going to leave my class and you're not going to have biases anymore. Yes. Hopefully what you will have are some tools to recognize when bias is getting in the way of you seeing the world objectively and some ways to kind of slow down and rethink things so that the one person standing in front of you might not fit the stereotype that, yeah, you might have met 10 other people in your life that absolutely fit the stereotype, but this one standing in front of you who wants a job might be exactly who you need to hire.

Keith Robinson, you say... Every girl in porn is crazy. Go ahead, Keith. Let's let Keith... Every single one. If I'm coming down the street, I'm from South Ph ahead, Keith. Every single one. If I'm coming down the street, I'm from South Philly, right? Yep. And South Philly back in the 70s, very racist.

It was real. It's a lot of just racism all over the place. So I'm walking down the street, right? And I see six white guys walking towards me. Yep. I'm automatically going to do something else. That's right. Because now they could be good guys.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Yeah. And I would say to you, if you want to cross the street, and if that's something to keep you physically safe, I would support you crossing the street and getting out of their way. And that's a bias, right?

Of course it's a bias. Absolutely it's a bias. It's the same thing that white people do to black people. Yeah. I mean, when they have that whole thing. So there's this part of your, I mean, I want to get too much into it. Because black people have it much worse. Didn't come here to lecture about brain anatomy, but there is this part of your brain called your amygdala

that sits right on top of your brainstem, and it is the first thing that gets hit when you see anything, and its only job is to kind of mitigate for threats, right? Yeah, that's how we evolve. When you stand next to a tiger, you go, go i gotta get the fuck out exactly fight or flight kicks in and then you know the adrenaline starts coursing and all these things happen completely automatically you know so yeah you see that those six white guys kind of walking towards you you're in south philly you automatically think this is not going to end well for me unless i cross the street and get

myself out of here and then you do that uh and you know I think what we've been talking about this whole time is that the folks that I usually meet are the ones who are like, hello, I'm here to interview you for a job. And so it's not so much, I mean, if you feel physically threatened by someone who shows up to interview for a job, then that's...

By the way, if I'm walking down the street and I see six black guys walking me, I have the same response. I'm across the street as well. I'm going across the street and I see six black guys walking with me, I have the same response. Maybe, yeah. I'm across the street as well. I'm going across the street even faster. Yeah, you know, so I was raised in the Navy, right? So at one point my dad was stationed in Scotland, and I was a teenager.

I was 16 years old living in Scotland. And we had to fake Scottish accents that would fool Scottish people. Because if they saw an American kid with an American accent walking around, they would beat you up as soon as look at you. And so, yeah, we were constantly, you know, kind of looking around and big eyes wide open and crossing the street and making sure that we were all together. You know, that's the other thing is that, you know,

there are less than four of us. Immediately your amygdala goes, yeah, you know, I need to have some safety. I heard that black people often think that white people smell like wet dogs. When they're wet. When they're wet, right? That's some 70s stuff.

Yeah, that's 70s. That's a 70s thing, yeah. You know, y'all don't use moisturizers and soaps now, y'all. Y'all don't smoke. Don't smoke like that. Like a wet sheep dog. What you probably talk about more when you go to get a job or something like that. Or get a promotion.

Or, you know, who are we going to put on this big, important project? And, you know, who do we think is going to be successful? Right? All those things about who are you going to mentor? Because who looks like they could run the company one day? Well, if your company has only ever been run by old white men, you're probably going to look for that. And the idea is, you know, maybe you should look beyond that. But other than just saying, look beyond

it and keep an open mind, what does your training consist of? Because again, I say it sounds to me like this could take just a couple minutes. You say, hey everybody, you know, if your name is Lakeisha, don't snap to judgment. You know, investigate a little further. It's basically the John Jamal test, Keith. It's like,

his name is John, what's your hiring room? His name is Jamal, what's your hiring room? What other things can you do other than tell people to keep an open mind? Well, you could instruct the people who are doing your hiring to take the names off the top of the resume. So all you see is candidate A, candidate B, and candidate C. So optimistic. So that's, well, and a lot of companies do that, right? So that's the way that it sometimes happens.

So, I mean, there are other ways to mitigate for bias because, again, it's going to happen. So what's the best thing for you to do? You know, most orchestras and symphonies right now, when they audition players, they do so behind this big blue screen. They can't tell if they're male or female, black or white. All they hear is the music, because that's all they really care about. And they did it because,

you know, originally, the way that you held your bow, you know, if you learned how to do it one way and somebody's doing it the other way, you're like, well, that's a shitty player. And they could be making beautiful music, but you can't hear it when you think they're doing it wrong. So they said,

let's not look, right? So then, when they decided, well, let's put everyone behind a blue screen so we can't see their hands, guess what? They ended up hiring way more women,

way more people of color. And it became really obvious that they were discounting a whole lot of really great musicians. You know where that happened in basketball? Actually, the reverse. In Confirmation, the Undoing Project is a book about the guys who did all the research for Confirmation Bias. Amos Tversky and Daniel Kahneman, the Pulitzer Prize winning economist.

But they studied the guys that were getting picked up for the draft. And they overlooked this Jeremy Lin. And they looked at the good deal they got on the guy because he's not the best player, but he was good. And what they realized is a lot of the scouts assumed because he was Asian, he wouldn't be that quick. And then they tested him to 40 and he wasn't. But his first step was as quick as the other black guys he was playing against. He ended up being a good player. But no, no.

But they chose. They chose. No, no. He went. They drafted the black guys before. That's why they picked Lin up so cheap at first. It's the opposite of confirmation bias. Had they not looked at his skin color and just tested his first step,

they would have picked him up early in the draft. Then it's like, what do you look for? What's the data you need to find? That's where when we get out of the classroom, we actually start talking to people about how do we make this better. What's the data that's important? And how can we get the data to be separate from whatever story your brain is making up

about the person in front of you? What I said about me walking across the street and seeing this and seeing six people and all that, what do you do with police officers who are supposed to be trained differently? Their mental has to be different

than mine. We were talking about that before you got here. My thing is it's training, but it's also even there. So Kahneman talked about your fast brain and your slow brain. So when I talk about automatic and deliberate, same thing.

Same thing, right? So you can use your slow brain in a fast-paced situation. It takes a lot of energy. A lot of training. It wears you out. So honestly, one of the things when I dealt with cops last year, I said, so 20% more glucose and oxygen is needed for your slow brain,

so you're not allowed to go on a diet. Oh, wow. Seriously, you need to eat. If you're going to be on a 12-hour shift, you've got to get some sleep. Seriously, these are some things that can really stop you from being able to use this higher-level functioning in your brain. Do you think that's all it is?

No, I don't think that's all it is, but that's certainly part of it. But the idea is that you have to be thinking critically. To me, it's the Tamir Rice story that is just the most heartbreaking thing I've ever heard. Two seconds before they got a call, they said there's a black guy in the park with a gun. Right.

They show up, and it's a 12-year-old kid with a toy gun. Yeah, yeah. And two seconds after the cop car stopped, they had shot this kid dead. Right. That, to me, is like that. Our society cannot ever put up with that. That cannot be okay.

Right, but what do we do? What do we do? What do we do? You know, but part of it is... Because that's more than absolute and deliberate. That's a tough one because... It feels like racism. If you're the least racist person in the world, but you're policing

a black community where there's a lot of crime and violence, how are you not going to have an inflection point where you come up against something? I mean, I wish that we all had tremendous discretion, but under pressure, how do you pick that up? It's not easy. It is not easy. I mean, I'm you pick that up like that? It's not easy. It is not easy.

I mean, I'm not here to tell you that there's an easy fix. Well, being a black man from the hood area. They're close to that mic, Keith. The cops that I know, they didn't care what age you are. They just looked at you automatically black and in trouble. So they never read a stat. They just walked around with an attitude. Because you're in that neighborhood, they look at you as already a criminal.

Yeah, that's tough. And that's when you see, so I've seen like a couple of viral videos. I'm not saying this is the entire answer by any stretch, but I've seen a couple of these videos that go around Facebook where you've got like this white cop who's doing double dutch with some black girls on the corner. And it's heartwarming. But actually, that's important.

Getting to know the community that you're actually working with. First of all, for the cop, it humanizes all of those people so they start to see them as human beings and not as this trouble waiting to happen. We're going to need 60 more of those videos every month. Sure.

We need cops to actually go do that. I don't want to demonize cops. That's not what I'm talking about because we all do this and they've got a really tough job. We all do it, yeah. Cops have not been demonized. That's what I'm like here. I don't want to demonize cops. It's the black man that's being shot.

Sure. The cops need to face some I don't want to demonize the cops. It's the black man that's being shot that's being demonized. Yeah, no. So the cops need to, you know, face some ramifications for that. Because they don't get demonized. That's the other thing I think would actually help is that the, I mean, obviously the biggest tragedy in these stories is that people lose their lives, right? The second biggest, you know, source of, of i think anger is when these cops get off right they they're tried and they're just they're let go and nothing you know now they

lose their job and it might be tough for them to get another job but we don't really hear about that we do need to hold people accountable because if people went to jail for doing that i think we probably would see fewer black men unarmed innocent innocent men get shot. I think you have to make a distinction between somebody that was scared and somebody that was thinking illogically versus somebody that's just a bad person. And I think there's two different, like, you know, you might be able to help somebody with implicit bias or with stereotypes that they have. But if somebody's just an asshole and has a Nazi tattoo, you know, and your course is not going to help that. It's not going to change. Let's put it in perspective. Look at Philando Castile.

He gave him all the credentials. He said everything. He told him. He showed him his hands, the girlfriend, and the pageant seat, the baby in the back, and he still got shot. Yep. All that.

And he gave him all the time in the world to figure out if he's a... So this course is a big picture, man. Goddamn. Yeah, no, and then whoever shot Philando got off, right? Yeah. Yeah, see, and that's another big problem. Like, that should not have happened, because that cop had every... You're right.

Every opportunity to rethink what was going on, engage what Kahneman would call your slow brain, you know, deliberate brain, whatever, and really think it through and totally fail. It didn't seem to me in watching that video that this was a man with hatred in his heart. He made lunches for children. No, I'm talking about the cop. Oh, yeah. No, Philando seemed like a great guy, but I'm talking about the cop just seemed like a guy who fucked up bad and knew it. And sometimes people fuck up really, really bad, but that's not because they're evil people.

It's because they thought that they were in danger, and they totally fucked up that. Wait a minute. You got to think about this. There's a little 40-year-old girl in the back of the car. Yeah. She saw all of it. Is this guy going to have a shootout with his daughter in the car? I don't know the specific story. That's what you have to think.

You have to think, but I'm saying you've got to distinguish between a guy who's a piece of shit person that's looking to kill somebody and a guy that fucked up in a major, major way. And I would argue that holding that guy accountable is going to prevent the next one from happening. Even if that guy...

I can have sympathy for him. You're right. I can say, you know, wow, you really fucked up. But you know what? Sometimes when people fuck up, they go to jail. You gotta go to jail, bro. Yeah. Well, that's a separate question, but I do think it's worth distinguishing between a bad human being and a guy that fucked up really bad.

Sure, I'm a bad human being. I can't, you know, my implicit bias is not going to touch that. You know, it's just not going to. But the lines are blurry now. And when they're that blurry, it's like, is this course really going to cut through that fog? So what I always tell people is like, look, I'm not here to tell you what your values are, but I'm here to say that sometimes bias can have you engage in behaviors that are not aligned with your values. So if you're a good person and you don't want, you know, women to, you know,

be held back, you don't want people of color to be held back. You really do believe that, but your behaviors are not always in line with that. Here's how to fix that. If your values are such that you just, you know, you really believe that like,

okay, I, you know, you're out there saying I'm a white, straight, you know, man and everyone else who succeeds is less room for me. So fuck them all.

I don't care. Right. I can't do much with you. Right, right. Isn't that the thing anyway? Isn't that the thing that money is going to make that... Money is always... It's hard. You're not going to stop money

from interfering with how you... I don't want him getting more than me. Yeah, but people who run organizations, organizations that are made up of a whole bunch of diverse people who get along, and that's a big caveat, right, who get along. So that's the other thing about building a culture where people can disagree and still get along. They make more money.

Yeah. You know, so if you're running a company and you're looking and saying, you know, okay, everyone who's coming in is pretty diverse, but once you get three levels up in the company, they all kind of look like me, guarantee that company is making less money than their competitor who's figured out how to do it right.

So it's not just a moral argument. You can make a capitalistic argument for it. Yeah, absolutely. I could probably do the same thing with comedy. I mean, if you've got a lineup that is constantly able-bodied, white, straight guys, night after night, they all might be really funny, but I tell you what, you put up, you know, somebody...

Oh, Hollywood's looking for funny women. I mean, they've heard that about it. You know, all of a sudden, Amy Schumer, Kathy Griffin show up, you've got a whole completely different audience, right? Sure, they do. You know, all the gay guys show up, and they will order Top Shelf Vodka, and they'll pay for it. So there's money in the bank there. And then everyone else who's listening, they'll have a night off or they'll go to something else fun. The more diverse your lineup is, if they're funny, if they're funny, big if. But if you get a diverse lineup of funny people, it's going to make any comedy club a lot more money than a lineup of funny people who all look the same.

Guaranteed. That will work in comedy because people want to see different viewpoints, but will that work in coding in Silicon Valley? I mean, you won't make more money automatically because you have a diverse group of coders at Google. When you start getting to the people who make decisions, the people who actually start to invent the code, a diverse group of people sitting around

trying to figure this out who have different viewpoints and different backgrounds, again, if they get they get along right if we can make sure that that's a culture they will all work together they will be more creative and innovative than a whole bunch of people who all went to the same school how do you define diversity because you say different viewpoints are key but of course i could you know i i grew up with uh people of color that had were similarly socioeconomic background than I was, and yet a white person from Appalachia might have... Is that considered diversity? Absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, really diversity, when it comes to the money argument, diversity is all about having a different point of view. And a different point of view is more socioeconomic, probably, than color. In a lot of ways. But you know what? I just met Derek.

We've had very different lives. I can tell. Like, that's just, it's just obvious, right? I mean, it's just like, you know, we've had very different experiences. So right away, there's a way to kind of say, yeah, there's diversity here. If there was somebody who looked exactly like me. But that's not because Derek is black. That's because Derek, you know, has a certain way about him that, you... You know, he...

Where'd you grow up, Derek? I grew up in South Jersey. Philly and South Jersey. Philly, yeah. The suburbs. But I'm from the suburbs. I'm from the suburbs, okay. I'm suburban.

My implicit bias shown through like a... Yeah. No, but it's not. So, yeah. Not the hood. My parents are engineers. Yep.

You know, I went to a real cool Jewish school. K-8. Bad high school. And I'm not saying completely different lives. We speak the same language. We. You know, I went to a real cool Jewish school, K-8, bad high school. And I'm not saying completely different lives. We speak the same language. We've got to, you know, but there are things that... But if they see me, so if cops come here and see me and see you, I'm the one going to jail. Yeah, you know, and that's something that is always on your mind that is not on mine.

And that will actually show up in the cops' mind. If every time the cop had a run in, if you're in a black neighborhood, also the problem is that black people are killing black people at a much higher rate than the cops are killing black people. I'll give you that, Doc. I will give you that. Especially Chicago. Here's what we got to understand.

Black people are killing other black people, but it's all proximity. White people are killing other white people. That's true, too. That's also true. At a much lower rate. I That's true, too. At a much lower rate. I can prove that mathematically. At 84%. That's a high rate. What's 84%? White people killing white people.

Really? 84% of white people are killing white people. No, 84% of white people who get shot get shot by another white person. Oh, yeah, that's true. There you go. But it's just a small number of white people killing white people. other way. Oh, yeah, that's true. Yeah, yeah. There you go. There you go. Pop, pop. But it's just a small number of white people killing white people. 84% or not. Which has to do with a lot of socioeconomic

stuff. Economic justice and all that kind of stuff, too. If we start looking at the numbers, sometimes the numbers can be scary because everything is proximity. But if I may say, if I may try to speak for Eric, even where the numbers demonstrate differences, for example,

say maybe the average Asian is quieter. Asian people are not shooting one another in the street. But be that as it may. I'm hiring Asian people. No, no, no. Actually, do you see that

Clint Eastwood movie about the Hmong gangs that were in? Yeah, the Hmong gang. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. But that's not the point. They're out there. One example.

But Eric is not saying that these numbers don't exist. Eric is saying if I'm looking to hire people, I see Eric. Oh, I'm not arguing any of that. I'm looking to move on from there. But yeah, we've got to hire the right people. Well, but okay. Now, speaking of Asians, I do want to bring up, first of all, Trump nixed the Iran deal. And if no one were here, we would get into it.

But I just can't speak to that because I have no... Yeah, I wouldn't hear about that. It's too complex for me to get into. Guy just brought up a subject and said, if no one were here, we'd deal with it and then move on. What the fuck did you bring it up for? Because I want... How about the Korean? with it and then moved on. What the fuck did you bring it up for? Because I want... I'm about to career knock. Because the people

listening might want to know what we think about something huge in the news that just happened and I'm telling you... You just told them that you're not

going to give them... Tell them what you think about it. We'll get to it next week. Tune in next week. But what if I do want to hear gnomes?

It's very complex and I could be like a lot of people and just rant and rave and pick a side and get a lot of followers on YouTube like some of our late night friends who don't know what they're talking about

that rant like idiots. But I'm willing to acknowledge it's a very complex situation that I'm not qualified to speak to. I am qualified, however, to speak about Cobra Kai, the new series on YouTube. YouTube Red. Because I'm bringing it back to Asians. Oh, you're bringing it back to Asians. I'm bringing it back to Asians because Oh, you're bringing it back to Asians.

I'm bringing it back to Asians because in the series Cobra Kai, have you seen it? I have not. Okay, it's a series that is like a continuation of The Karate Kid, which I assume you've seen. Oh, yeah. Oh, I saw that. It's the bully story. It is. I saw a preview.

Now, in this series. I went to go see The Avengers and I saw a preview of this. Which can be seen on YouTube Red or YouTube Plus or whatever, YouTube Even More Space, whatever they call it. I'm talking about Cobra Kai, the series. I heard you. Land the plane, Dan. I know you're going to land the plane. Here we go.

The flaps are at 30 degrees. All right, land the plane. Although neither of them are Asian, but keep going. There's an Asian pilot. Dan flies Cessnas. I have done so. I have a license that I haven't used in a while. Have a license? But in any case, in this series, there's an Asian guy who plays a young Asian kid, like 17, whatever.

He plays kind of the school popular kid slash bully. Okay. And I don't accept it. Of course not. It's bullshit. It's bullshit. He's the one Asian bully in his school. I don't say Asians can't be bullies.

They can. But he's Asian. Wait a minute. Go to Hong Kong. What do you think they're doing over there? Yeah, but they only have other Asians. They're not bullying black people. In a school that's mostly white, the Asian guy is not going to be the cool guy bully.

Yeah, you're right. It's progressive. It's progressive. It's science fiction. I have not seen the show, so I can't comment. Let me tell you something. Once again, South Philadelphia. Vietnamese. A lot of Vietnamese around there. A lot of Asian bullies.

But they weren't bullying black people. Yeah, that too. There was a lot of Asian gangs that go But I understand that And you're correct But this guy, if you saw the show Which you didn't, you'd know what I was talking about You never saw Copacabana

He's like an Asian We're talking about real life So that's real life 70s Philly What I will say is You've got an entire series Built around karate starring two white guys, you better put an Asian in there somewhere or the Asian community is going to go, okay, yeah. They're going to call you up. Right?

It's like when Emma Stone played an Asian woman in that Aloha movie, and people had some shit to say about that. Yeah. Remember? Yeah. The character's name was Allison Ang and they had Emma Stone. I like Emma Stone. Cobra Kai.

Cobra Kai. I want to hear what he has to say. Nobody talks about these American Indians. They're getting played in movies by white people. Johnny Depp played an American Indian. You want to talk about people getting screwed over. These black people have a presence in our pop culture.

As difficult as they get, but these American Indians. I didn't like it. That's right. Unfortunately, the American Indians are dead. There's not many left.

That's what we teach in this course. There ain't nothing left. Go to Foxwoods. You hear about the two Native Americans on the college tour and the mom called them

because they weren't talking? No. Because they showed up late to the college tour. They were driving from somewhere else. And the mom of some white kids was like, well, there's two Natives in the tour. So the cops came to talk to them, but they was a part of the tour. They just came late. So they got called on.

They got cops calling. They were Native Americans. So I'm sitting there like, God damn. Yeah, Native Americans. This course better be twined in gold, sir. I don't know what the fuck you want. Man, it's just a lot. It's deep.

But you're very optimistic. I will give you that. You know, it's a job requirement. You got to walk in every day and say, you know, if I can bring you, if I can make you go an inch forward than where you were before. You know what name gets hired even less than Laquisha? Chief Red Horse. Cool. Good call.

That's funny. You have an application that says Running Bull. You know, good luck. All right, man. Yeah. Well, and that's why a lot of people change their names on their resumes, right? I mean, you've probably heard a lot of stories about people. The first time I saw a Native American was, what, four years ago at a show I did in Minnesota at a casino.

Yeah. That's right. It was crazy. Yeah. A comic? No, it was just a real Indian dude sitting in a crowd. Oh, that's right. It was crazy. Yeah. A comic? No, it was just a real Indian dude sitting in a crowd. Oh, see, yeah.

My parents grew up in Idaho, so it was right next to a reservation. So, yeah. Took a picture with him and everything. He had the brain and the eagle. Yeah, I remember the first time I saw. Does your diversity training with your corporate clients,

you focus mostly on race, I gather, but what role does sexual orientation play in your... Actually, we don't focus completely on race, I gather, but what role does sexual orientation play in your career? Actually, we don't focus completely on race. We don't focus completely on race, but yeah, I mean, you know, so sexual orientation comes up. I'm gay, so

I will sometimes, you know, come out to a class full of people and say you know, this is me. It's interesting, you know, since gay marriage, it's actually, I think it's kind of calmed down the heat on that particular issue a little bit. Black people have a tough time with gay marriage, Derek. They do.

They do, right? They're getting. Yeah, they're getting. Yeah, yeah, I know. It's slow. It's slow, yeah. Right now, it's a bunch of, like, the church has accepted all the choir singers. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But this is a slow climb. Every black church has got so many gay men singing in the choir. Of course. When my cousin came out, it was in the Gaines Family Tribunal when this shit happened. I got phone calls from cousins. I ain't here for you. Paris, get out of here.

So it's a big thing in the black community. Yeah, you know. And so it's one of those things that sometimes people have, you know, their personal politics kind of sit there and you kind of have judgment around that. And so if you're working in an environment where it's really important to kind of fit into a boys club, right?

It's a pretty informal workspace and you've got a lot of things and you get to know people's families and you sit around and talk shit and get really, you know, you have conversations that probably you don't hear in a lot of office kitchens, then it can be really tough because it's like no one really wants to, unless what gay people normally then have to do is say,

okay, I'm just going to go there. I'm going to go all the way there and actually just kind of, you know. But we're all so tribal, right? I mean, we all have to pick up on these differences in one another's cultures and then use it to point at from everybody's perspective and everybody's culture. My good friend and mentor, Howard Ross, his book just came out yesterday. The Howard Ross. The Howard Ross.

The name of the book is Our Search for Belonging. It's all about how finding your people is just such an innate human drive. I came to New York City. But what's happening now is that we start to define who our people are by also defining who our people are not. Of course. And so we're becoming really, really polarized. It used to be that most of the people who we sent to Washington were pretty centrist and you had a couple of nuts on the fringes.

Now everyone's fringe. No one's in the center because we're all watching. If you're a conservative, you watch Fox. If you're a conservative, you watch Fox. If you're a liberal, you watch MSNBC. We don't even agree on the facts anymore. And so I will say to my parents who are very conservative, did you see what

Trump put on Twitter the other day? And they're like, no, but did you see that a high school librarian in Massachusetts returned Melania's books? See more confirmation vibes. I did not know that story, but yeah. They're screening for what they want to believe. It's more confirmation vibes. I did not know that story, but yeah. They're screening for what they want to believe.

It's all confirmation vibes. Exactly. And so we're not having conversations that are helpful and we're kind of retreating even further to our side. And again, it's a big problem.

That's where comedy comes in, though. Comedy is one of the few things that speaks to at least cross demographics. If you make an indie film about anything, you're already preaching to the choir. The only people showing up to see the film

are people that already have New Yorker subscriptions. You're not reaching people in other demographics. I see what you're saying. Whereas comedy, you can still really... You know, every once in a while, you get a Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon that kind of breaks out and everyone wants to go see. But, yeah, you're right.

It's funny. You know, my colleague, Dr. Jeanette Cole, who is a good friend of mine and a real leader in this space, she said to me when I told her I was doing this, she said, you know, the best diversity trainers of my youth were comedians. Red Fox. You know, I mean, before the shit went down, Cosby. You know, people who were teaching the world. Richard.

Richard was born. Richard was very disarming. I'm going to tell you about the community. As I said earlier, there's no really more diverse environment than the world of stand-up comedy that I've seen. Word. As I say, I don't typically associate with such a varied group of people as I do here at the comedies. Can be. And again, it's not my world. I've heard you could make an argument that, you know,

it's a tough space sometimes for women. Oh, yeah. You know, because it is that informal kind of space. The big guy came here giving heat the other day, right? How difficult is it for funny women? My experience of being around funny women,

you know, there's a lot of shitty people that are not good at what they do that go, ah, it's because of this. No, fuck it. It's not always because you're a woman. Jessica Kersey gets on stage.

She kills. Murders. She comes off stage. Not a fucking guy in this room goes, ah, yeah, she's getting stage time because she's a woman. Yeah, I have to agree with Doc because I'm a woman. I've seen some funny, fantastic movies. So you know this world better than I do. Every funny woman I know gets respect.

What I will ask, though, in return is who is born with their type 5 that's going to kill? What do you mean? I mean, who's born a brilliant stand-up comic? You learn this stuff, right? I mean, it's something where, you know, when you start off, it's, you know, you're still kind of no one is at that level when they get up in front of an open mic for the first time. And how

many women have we scared off because who could have been brilliant? Just a question. I mean, it's just something. I don't't know i don't know the answer about that if you're talented you think you can make it happen because you gotta make it happen we're scared the ones that's still here they're fucking phenomenal so it's like yeah you think you think a guy wasn't scared off at his first open mic and i'm not i mean you're sure the open mic is scary enough, but then when you've got, you know, comedians who are, you know, around you

and perhaps, you know, saying some things, you know, the groping that happened, you know, I mean, it's just, that kind of stuff. That's different.

I mean, if you're talking about groping, I mean, that's happening in corporate culture as well. I'm not condoning that. I'm saying, if you're going to complain you didn't get an opportunity

because you're a woman, you better be a funny woman. And then if you're funny and you say that, then I'm all ears. But if you're just running around going get an opportunity because you're a woman, you better be a funny woman. And then if you're funny and you say that, then I'm all ears. But if you're just running around going, it's because I'm a woman, let me see you do funny 15 minutes. Because there aren't that many doing it. That's the truth. What I will say is that growing up, girls are not perhaps encouraged to be the class clown or to seek attention in that way.

And I don't know how much of that is cultural and how much of that is just women and men, I believe, are fundamentally different in many ways. Gender roles, right. But God bless the woman that finds that fucking... Yeah, God bless her. Just be funny. I don't care what you are.

But I'm just saying, when you have a culture that does kind of... It's all about who can be funnier than who. Sometimes, I'm sure inappropriate things get said because you're all trying to, and it's the way that it is. And that should be the way that it is.

I used to hang around a lot of theater actors, right? So they were good friends, but not quite stand-up comedy, but kind of close to that, right? No, not really. And so cast parties can kind of get... It's one of those things that if you are young and you have potential,

but you get scared off, who knows how many Margaret Cho's and Kathy Griffin's we lost. So what? Welcome to the world. If you're young and you get scared off, then you were scared. Everybody's got to overcome something. I can't change the culture. If you're scared of an audience or you're scared of a heckler, that's fair.

But if you're scared because somebody did something really bad. Oh, I'm not talking about sexual stuff. I'm just talking about. No, that's what I mean, though. That's what I mean. That's the can of worms. That's another can of worms to open. Yeah, that's different.

That damaged that. And it happens everywhere, right? Sure it does. Hashtag Me Too kind of shone a light on the entire entertainment industry, but it's certainly happening in all these corporate spaces as well. You know, all these newscasters now we're hearing, you know, that have been doing this. Those are pretty corporate feeling kind of spaces. You know, it's like Matt Lauer and Charlie Rose were not hanging out in comedy clubs.

They were in offices with people with cubicles around them. Oh, no, of course. So it happens in a lot of places. But I'm always like, you know, people are talking about, you know, Charlie Rose might be making a comeback. And I'm like, okay, I want the women whose careers ended because they had the guts to stand up and say he's been doing this shit. I want to see their comeback. Like that's where, you know, that's where I am. So, yeah, I'm talking about kind of extreme behaviors. But if there's a culture that does support that, which it seems like, you know, before this hashtag Me Too thing happened, a lot of men were doing this for years.

I mean, how many women did Harvey Weinstein abuse before the world came crashing down? This was terrible. And we're not saying it's not any less terrible. But how does it go from comedy to that to Me Too? How did it go from comedy to that to me too? How did it start? Well, I'm just saying that if you have, like, you know, okay, so if Harvey Weinstein deserves a comeback, I want to see Mira Sorvina's comeback first. I want to see S.E.S.

I was trying to find a place where we could argue because it seems more interesting. I was just thinking about the idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I've heard this thing about women in comedy, and I thought I've never met a funny woman that anybody talks shit about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I've heard this thing about women in comedy. And I thought, I've never met a funny woman that anybody talks shit about. Yeah, funny women. I mean, when Michelle Wolf comes, nobody talks.

You know, nobody says, when they're funny. When they're not funny, talking. And I've heard this before. Well, I'm a woman. You're not bringing the other thing with you. They pull the woman card when the jokes don't hit. It's kind of like when urban comics don't do good in urban, so they turn into Christian comics.

I've seen this shit go down. A funny urban comic could do well in any room. And by the way, a black audience respects a funny white guy for the most part. Just be yourself. Don't try to be black. Be yourself. I will never know because it scares me. But in any case,

I'm getting more confirmation bombs. We were having two different conversations. You're right. If you just go up there and you bomb and you are sad and then you go home, okay, well, you bombed. You either have to get up and do it again. If there's sexual stuff, absolutely. I'm not talking about that.

And I'm saying that if any woman you talk to, and I've been asking ever since Me Too hit, every single woman I talk to about this, I'm like, have you ever been sexually harassed on the job? Every single one will say yes. They all say yes. It doesn't mean that all men do this, but it does mean that any woman who's been working

for any length of time, this has happened. And again, if that's the price of admission, a lot of women are going to say, yeah, no thanks. I'm just not going to hang around for this anymore. Well, we have to, unfortunately, have to conclude for this evening. Thank you, Eric Peterson. This was so much fun. And you seem like a nice guy.

And I'm sure that no one would love to have you back on the show to discuss. Yeah, it'll be fun. Anytime. You'll change the world, Eric. Derek Gaines, we can see you on... Every Tuesday at 10 or 10.30 on TBS. Tracy Morgan's The Last OG. The Last OG.

What's OG stand for? Original Gangster, Dan Edelman. That's me. And, of course, Doug Davidoff, regular of the Comedy Cellar. I'll be on The Tonight Show tomorrow night. Check it out. We're Dove.

No, Friday night. Friday night, I'll be on it. Friday night. Tomorrow night. Friday night. Friday night, watch Dove on the Fallon's thing. Okay it out. We're Dove. Friday night. Friday night. I'll be on it. Friday night. Friday night. Watch Dove on the Fallon's thing. Okay, bye.