The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Discipline, Screens, Genetics, Routine – What Actually Shapes a Kid? - Michaeleen Doucleff

Episode Date: March 5, 2026

Noam Dworman, Dan Naturman, and Periel Aschenbrand are joined by Michaeleen Doucleff. Doucleff has a PHD in chemistry, has written for the NPR Science desk for 14 years, and is the author of the New York Times bestseller Hunt, Gather, Parent. Her new book, Dopamine Kids, is out now.

Hey, hey, this is live from the table, the official podcast of the world famous comedy seller, available wherever you get your podcasts, and particularly available on YouTube for that multimedia experience. Dan Aderman here, along with Nome Dwarman, the owner of the Comedy Seller with locations in New York City and Las Vegas, Nevada. Perry Al-Ashan Brand joins us, of course, as always. Hello. Author, comedian, and our producer. and we are joined in studio by Micoline. Micoline DuCleff.

I'll take it again. Michaeline DuCleff. She's a Ph.D. in chemistry, so she's no slouch. She's written for the NPR Science Test for 14 years, an author of the New York Times bestseller, Hunt Gather, Parent, and a new book just out, Dopamine Kids, which Amazon calls riveting nonfiction. Riving Nonfiction.

Yeah. Dopamine Kids. Welcome. By the way, she's not French. We discussed that, even though her name is Michaeline Ducleff. But if I could just say something, speaking of French, I just started a new Instagram page called Angles for You. That's A-N-G-L-A-I-S for you. So for our French-speaking listeners, of whom there probably are, Denny, that are looking to improve their English, or just to help me get more followers, please follow at Angles for you, A-N-G-L-A-S for. You.

I like that, Dan. Thank you. And I'm actually really enjoying it. This is the first thing I've, because Lord knows I don't enjoy stand-up comedy. But this is the first thing I've really, really enjoyed. And I would, and if I could actually get a lot of followers

and make a dollar or two off it, that would be even better. But I'm really having a good time with it. Well, I'm glad to hear that. I like to see you being proactive. Anyway, no, why are you looking at me like, I got three heads? No, I'm thinking, I'm having terrible trouble today

with the renovation of the new club. Okay. Like serious problems. Yeah. And no dopamine for me today. Well, it's, uh, you just throw money at it. No, no, this may not be, this may not be fixable with money. Yeah.

Anyway. Okay. So. I want to just give us a brief, uh, synopsis of what the, no, because I don't want the government to know. Okay. No, I know, it's just like there's a, um, we have to raise the floor. Hmm.

Oh, that sounds like a big job. Yeah. You're right. Yes, money, of course, solves everything but health problems in the end. But this is not, you know, you have to have money. You have to have that kind of money in order to wield it to solve the problem. That's so. Well, fortunately, you do.

Anyway. I don't. Why do you have to raise the floor? There's a thing. I mean, just briefly. No, no. So anyway, Mike Aline. I can't believe he said, Michael.

Who would look at that and say McAleen? Well, you can't even more believe it before you were, before you walked in, we had whole conversation about how it was Michaeline and not Michelin. I'm thinking of Angelique. Michael, you know the name Michael? I know, but I'm... Michaeline. Anyway, so...

I'm thinking of Angelina Jolie's mother whose name was Michelin, I believe. Oh, I didn't know that. I think so, man. Yeah, some people call me Michelin. Like the tires? It's like a French name. Old kind of... Oh, like the restaurant.

Michelin, yeah. This book has a five Michelin stars. That's right. Five Michelin stars. You should have that when you feel other parenting stuff. Don't mean kids. No, you read another book What was the name of the other book? What was her other book called?

Her other book was Her other book was Ungather Parent. Remind me of Lenore Skinawze's free range parenting. Yes, it's like that except it's a little bit more parenting than just let them go roll them around. She and I are friends. So like we're right on the same page, but it's a little bit more like, hey, you know what?

You also got to like. She's not in the same. She runs her family like Survivor. She just puts them out with like some sticks. It's like, you know, you guys will be foraging. And I do believe that will lead to good results for the ones who make it. Yeah, you know, I think all kids need some of that, right? But I think they also need to like help with dinner, help clean up.

They need like a purpose and contribution. Like I grew up kind of free range, just running around the hills of Virginia. Yeah. And it was great. And it helped. served me very well. But like, I wish I had been more part of kind of a team, you know, like helping my mom and because kids, kids need that. That's what makes them really happy. It's like I say, you know, you're helping me with dinner tonight because that makes you happy. It's not about me.

So this is my question about child rearing. And by I have, I have four kids. One of them is not of my loins. And, and, and, and, and I raised him since he's nine months old. Okay. And actually known him since the day he was born. So of your heart. Of my heart. And then I have three, you know, biological children. And I don't know how to start.

What are the ages? So the oldest one is 31. Okay. And then the younger ones that are a cluster of 14, 12, and 8. Okay. Perfect. So, you know, when you have the single child, you think that, the steps you're taking are actually having an impact.

Oh, look, he's well-behaved because I did this. He's going to bed well because I did that. And then when you have four of them, you come away thinking, I've just been fooling myself. There's nothing I do that has any impact. This is simply the way they are. You know, with some slight tweaking and that the things that I thought were changing because of things I was doing, well, they just got older. Yeah.

You know, like you need. They grow out of it. Like all the lessons of double-blind experiments, like we think, oh, how can one person alone with one child think that they know what impact there? And like everything we know about science. Yeah. This is like this is the risk of thinking that you see a drug having an improvement in person. Right. Compounded by 100 because it's your child.

So you're so yearning to see the result. Yeah. Yeah. So you're saying that it wasn't Rob Reiner's fault. I'm not saying it's genes, not environment. So let's, that's the big. So, so let's you, yeah, but I'm talking too much already since you're the guest, but yeah, let's just start there.

Yeah. How do you control four genes? So I can tell you that when I wrote hunk gather parent, I went all over the world with my three-year-old. And we stayed with families in very different parts of the world. And I can tell you that we could see massive changes. So, for instance, we were up in the Arctic with the Inuit community, and the kids there across the board, totally different than the kids' year. So there, when you're age six,

you know how to share, you know how to help, you know how to be kind and generous. And then we fly back into America and the seven, eight, nine, ten-year-olds are screaming because they don't want to share their chips. So that's entirely a cultural phenomenon. So you can make massive changes with your children by the culture inside your home. Well, you would need to look at Inuit kids raised in America to really make the case. That is true. But I'm making the case that the environment is actually quite, quite impactful on a child. Now, are there differences within that?

Absolutely. You know, there's some kids there are like, well, what's wrong with him? He's not sharing at six, you know? I mean, of course, there's differences. But I was so struck by how different kids can be the same age. And then you see it again. We went to Mexico, see it again. We went to Tanzania.

You see it again, right? And so I think, yes, you are right. The kids are very different. But I think that your home culture can have a really big impact on how helpful they are, what they eat, you know, like what they value. Does it mean it's the only thing? No. But I think you've got to start with what do you want and value. And you're giving that to them.

That's what parenting is about. So let me tell people listening, you're parents out there. We're going to get specific child wearing recommendations for Michaeline in short order. So don't give up by it. If that's what you came for, you're going to get it. But I do have a thought experiment. Yes. Have you had any experience with Jewish people?

Well, okay, let me think. Yes, I would say, so I'm in science and I'm in publishing. So yes. But no experiment is this. I've never been to Israel, have you? No. Okay. But Hankeller parent, there is a Hebrew version.

Okay. So, and, you know, it's quite an aggressive bunch, right? Yeah. And this is a thought experiment. If you took a million Israelis and raised them precisely as Japanese. Interesting. And took a million Japanese and raised them precisely as Israelis. Do you mean to tell me it would flip?

Because I'm not buying it. No, but see, you're not. I believe that. Well, there might be a middle ground. I believe that there israeli. Milgram, but I, I, you're not, you're not hearing what I'm saying. Like, look, I'm not saying it's the only thing. I'm just saying they both impact it. And I can tell you, we had a little school at our house. We live in West Texas now. We had this little school I started for a while. I loved it. It was amazing. And kids would come in totally different homes, different cultures. And I would apply what's in gathered parent to these kids. And I could see huge changes in them. Did they change completely? No. But they relaxed. They contributed. Like every kid wants. to help, help his family. Every kid wants to have a purpose. I don't care whether... Not her kid, but... No, they do. They do. Everyone, I say it's like a little flame inside you.

And it's your job as a parent to kind of fan it and make it bigger. But of course they're going to be different. You got to figure out what... Okay, dopamine kids, we'll go there. Like, you got to figure out what gets their dopamine flowing. What excites them. Like, my mom would always stick me in front of like painting and drawing and knitting and, ugh, are horrible. What I wanted to do, do. I wanted to be outside, like chopping wood. Now I like to split wood and like construction and big knives, you know, so you've got to figure out what. Your mother must have been horrified. No, no. She didn't let me do this. This is all like, just to know that their daughter wanted to split wood. Yeah, she wouldn't and never thought, right? Are you and your wife live in West Texas?

Me and my husband. But my point is like, you're right. All my son wants to do is knit and so they Well, yeah, and it's true. Like, that's all my daughter wants to do. Like, and you have to figure out, like, what they want specifically and go there. That's what, dopamine is about motivation, motivation and wanting and desire. And we, and the tech industry and the food industry have figured out what our kids want. All right. Let's go with some of the things that all, not all parents, some parents are so lucky the kid just comes out magically perfect.

It's true. But the greatest hits. Getting the kids, get all this shit together and be ready to leave the house. for school on time in the morning. What are your hints for that? Okay, you're going to have you read, you haven't read, Hunt, Gallup. Okay, so it depends on the age, really, because you can't treat the two-year-old or four-year-old like the eight-year-old.

Between like first grade to fifth grade, that kind of thing. So just, or even to high school, yeah. Just be quiet. The first second grader knows what they need to do. You do not need to tell them at all. Stop bossing them around so much. When we boss around our kids, we're really disrespecting them. And it just makes some kids not want to do any of it.

So just shut up. Let them get ready. And if they don't, leave. Leave without them. And they miss school. Well, just try. Just try. I guarantee you that a lot of kids, maybe like I'll say 90%,

as you start walking out the door and you get that car, they'll run out there. Not my daughter. But this is a big. I said 90%. Yeah. I always come to this fork because like my, let's say my eight-year-old, any, and he's the most responsible of any kid I ever had. That's your youngest.

He's the youngest, yeah. Probably been left alone the most. I wouldn't say he's been left alone. None of these kids have ever been left alone, which is, okay. But, no, he, from day one, he's just been so different. I'm, you know, I, I, I think I did the 23 meet. Anyway. So, like, let's say, he forgets, let's say, he's, he's a fourth grade.

I forgot my notebook to get a call. Like, do I go? to the school with a notebook and protect them from the bad grade, let's say he's in seventh grade. Or do I say, no. You forgot your notebook. You face the consequence. Because I know like if he faces those consequences, he's more likely not to forget the notebook again

than having that safety net. On the other hand, it's very hard to tell your kid, F you. You know, I think it depends. I think if he's never done that and he helped you make breakfast in the morning and he was kind to you last night and like he's, you know, being respectful, then I would help him. Because it's like,

you're showing him, I'm on your team, we help each other. You help me, I help you. That's the thing is we, in America, we don't have our kids on our team. They don't cooperate with us. That's what hunk-ather parent is about, is like getting your kid to cooperate and want to help you. And one of that ways is helping them. Now, if the kid has really been disrespectful to you and hasn't been helping, then no way. And you tell them, look, you got to help me out.

And then I'm going to help you out. You know, so I think it depends on where you and the kids sit. This is similar the way you treat adults, right? It's very similar to way you treat adults. I think the difference is you give kids a little bit more leeway with things, and you can boston around just a little bit more. Your background isn't chemistry, just to be clear. Yes, just to be clear.

But I guess you've sort of taken on not academic training, but life training in social science. I spent 14 years reporting for NPR, and the first 10 years I traveled around reporting on global health. And so I would be sent places for outbreaks. So like I predicted. They love genetic arguments at NPR. Yes, that's true.

And then in 10 years ago, I had a baby. And then I would travel. And then I started to like realize like, wow, when I travel, like, families don't have the problems we have here. Like they have different problems for sure. But they don't have the same problems. And so I started to try to figure out like, how do you raise a helpful kid? How do you raise a kind kid? How do you raise a kid that's not stressed and anxious?

And I started applying them to my little two, three-year-old. And it was like amazing. It was so amazing. I remember the first, we were living in San Francisco, and I was just like, whoa, this like works. And so then I started researching more. And then for the book, we traveled to Yucatan, the Arctic, and Tanzania. And the parents there taught me all these amazing tools. There's another way to put the same question.

Like my son, someday he might get upset if he hears me say it. But my son Manny This is the 12 year old He's very good He's a PhD She listen Very good No that's not my 12th

Oh okay No no it is It is it is it is it is it is It is it is So my son Mani the toy He had a lot of anxiety Even as a baby He cried a lot as a baby

Then he had stranger anxiety He'd pee when a stranger came Like he was very very anxious And this was clearly Not a product of his upbringing this was his nature. So another way to put, and maybe it's, maybe both these questions are not even actually the same question, but they're both important questions.

It's not, how do you raise a kid doesn't have anxiety, is how do you help a kid who hangs, has anxiety? Yes, yes, a kid that's like that, I think one. Because a parent might think, the way you phrase, and it might be true sometimes, depending on what kind of horrible parents you are, you may have caused that anxiety. His environment may be causing him anxiety. how do you raise him so he doesn't have anxiety. But there's another scenario, which is clearly true.

You have a kid who's born kind of anxious. Nothing to do with you at all. How do you help him? You see what I'm saying. Yeah. You know, I think that first of all society kind of makes that problem worse. Like, let's be honest, right? We live in a world where, like, people who tend to be a little anxious is worse, right?

So I think actually that kid needs a little bit more, first of all, a little more of that, like, I'm part of a team, right? I'm not by myself. So a lot of hung other parent is like, it's not, let's go clean up your room. It's let's do this together. Right? And like getting the kid to realize

they're part of this bigger group, right? That's what kids need. If you look at like fundamental needs of humans, one is to feel like they belong. And I think an anxious kid, like I felt this way as a kid, will feel so much better if they feel like they belong. So I think that kid needs to be a little bit more like part of your life in a way, like doing things together.

And then it's going to sound kind of counterintuitive, but I think the kid probably also needs a little more autonomy. So autonomy is like the anecdote to anxiety. Because anxiety is this feeling of like, oh my gosh, I can't do this, what's going to happen? And autonomy allows the kid to kind of do some things by themselves and see like, whoa, I was afraid and I did it and I'm okay. And don't mean kids, I call it scary but fun.

We all need scary but fun in our lives, even adults, right? Because it's like, first of all, it feels good. It's like adrenaline. It's like, you know, exciting. But then you're also seeing that, oh, when I'm afraid and I'm worried, I can actually do it. And you keep teaching yourself that, right? Like, oh, when I'm afraid and I'm worried, I can actually do it. And so helping the kid go through some of those cycles of like, oh, I'm not sure.

Oh, I did it. So I would ask him, he's 12, right? 12. Okay. I would ask him, like, is there something you're dying to do by? yourself and you've but I won't let you do it. Well he's 12 so yeah. Yeah and and then try and then try try to get him to do something try to help him do something you might be afraid maybe you need the therapy more right like easy no he's way better now actually

oh okay but nobody but this is great for any kid like say like is there something you're dying to do alone because you're tapping into their dopamine system here kids need to do things by themselves they need adventure. This is all dopamine. And then figure out a way for them to do it. You support them, you help them, maybe you teach them gradually. And what you're doing is you're teaching them not to be anxious, but you're also giving them skills they need to, like, grow up and be like a competent adult.

Have you done any research in isolated communities, like in the Amazon, those sorts of communities? I mean, the community we went to in the Arctic did not have cell phone coverage. So it was pretty isolated. Actually, the one in Tanzania, no. They actually just got it, though, like a couple months later. Because I've read that in those communities, there's no depression. So I have not done official research on this, but the community we were with in Tanzania,

I think this idea of like an anxious kid, I don't even think it exists. When we were in the Yucatan, I actually asked the Maya mom, like, is parenting stressful? And it took like 15 or 20 minutes for them to figure out what stressful meant. because there wasn't really like a term for it. So I think that, you know, it's very different. Ednaum, do you think that just Mayans happen to be genetically unstressed? I think it's not true that there's no anxious minds. It may distribute differently.

There's clearly, if you see three identical strangers, we all know. Anxious Mayans? No, and any parent sees, at the earliest ages, he sees the evidence of their children's disposition. Absolutely. I'm not denying that. And I know a parent, I know a close friend of mine who had their first kid and she was perfect. She slept through the night. They were like, you know, she sits there in colors all day.

Like they were like, oh, we're amazing parents. And then they got twin boys, identical, hellions, smeared poop on the walls. They were just like, okay, this had nothing to do with us. Right. But I also don't think we should just like throw up our hands and be like, it's just genes. We have no role here because we have to take a role. in this world that we're living in, like, we have to take the wheel of our kids' lives. Otherwise, the food and the screens will take it for us.

Well, the screens will let's put a, as they say in NPR, let's put a pin in the screens for a second, because we can come back to that. But, and the other one they say now is like, let's double click on that. Anyway, have you heard people say that? My husband says put it on the queue. Oh, put on the queue. That's okay. I can live with that.

Until it becomes cliche. And as long as it doesn't become cliche, I'm okay with it. Is he from England? He's Macedonian. So, okay, what would my questions? Oh, so the first question is this. Oh, I was saying, so like three identical strangers. You've seen this movie.

I mean, you just, it's so clear. I have a, like I said, I raised a 31-year-old. Yeah. I raise him from infancy. And he does not share one single trait of mind. Interesting. Not a personality, not a mannerism, not a sense of humor. Like zero.

No hobbies? No, I'm telling you, zero. And then at like 11 years old, he met his bio dad for the first time. Oh, wow. Their laugh is the same. Their anger is the same. They're like two peas in a pod. It's just unbelievable.

But anyway, here's my question. Just anecdotally, we know, like, I remember from college, like, there's this early imprinting period for babies with adults and they don't hear certain things within the first few months. They don't learn to speak as well. And there's all sorts of things that have to happen very, very early. What about those very early years do we know? So, for instance, one of the things that I, I swear, I could never get used to this was

other parents who had similar-aged children. They were sleep training their kids. Yeah. Oh, let them cry. I know. And I felt like these are like Nazis. Like, what kind of God, quote unquote God, you know, gives kids the instinct to cry, gives parents the instinct

to want to comfort the crying baby but actually the right thing to do was ignore them. Was that Dr. Spock that started that whole thing? No, it goes back further. It's like I think in Hunt Gather, parent, I talk about it.

I think it's like this golfing sports writer who comes up with it. It's some crazy thing that he ended up blowing his hand off with a gun or something. Like he came up with this idea. Like this is... No, like that would be the geometry of that. Like the very early experience

of not being loved or whatever, comforted by your parents. This I could imagine, because I actually think the answer to this genetic issue is that you can't really make the kids anything, but you can traumatize them. And trauma is real. You have such a negative view on it, though. Like, you're just basically saying, I can't do anything but mess it up. And much easier, much, much easier to mess it up than it is to create. In the same way, you have a seed of a tree.

Right, right. It's much, much easier to prevent that tree from. growing tall and strong than it is to get the tree to grow taller and stronger than its potential. If you give the tree the sunlight and the nourishment that it needs, it's only going to become the tree encoded in that soil. But if you deny it even a little bit of sunlight, it might be a foot shorter, you know? I don't know. I'm much more optimistic. I mean, and I think, to be honest, I think that like... This is your problem. No, but I think this is what like these tech companies and these food companies want us to be like,

oh, well, we can't do anything. Like, there's this kind of like powerlessness kind of theme. And I actually see it moving. Like, when I talk to parents and do things like this, I see there this like, no, we do have a lot. Your home culture, that's kind of what I've been thinking about. It's like your home culture can shape children in incredible ways. And you have so much power over them to do positive.

But again, it's about getting them on your team. But we're not so different, because for instance, I fight with my wife, like my daughter wants to go into the city. I'm like, Juanita, let her figure out how to do the train schedule and go and go in the city. 14-year-old. Yeah. I was encouraging it even at 12, I think.

Yeah, that's what she needs. And my wife was wanting to, you know, helicopter manager. Yeah. And that trauma has a dozen, that to me is traumatizing her. Like if you're arguments. What? Your arguments are traumatizing?

No, I'm saying the fact that my wife is denying my daughter the opportunity. or the requirement to executive functionalize her autonomy. Yeah, that's kind of denying her a nutrient because Yes, I agree. Problem solving is something that the brain must need to be faced with. I mean, it's more than that, right? Like being out there on her own and learning to navigate her world and her community on her own

isn't just about problem solving. It is a fundamental need as a human being. And I totally agree. I think that it is, I wouldn't say traumatizing, but it's depriving her of like fulfilling a need in her life. And I think the data are very clear on this, on mental health, like if we go to mental health, that teenagers in particular are missing that exploration of their community, that contributing to their community. And so, and you can start earlier even, right? But absolutely that she needs that. And really, your wife needs to just relax a little bit.

You know, I will. Cut! I'm sorry. Okay. Well, thank you very much for coming. I'm sorry. Now, Periel, the Periel, I used to fight because she has a son, my son's age. And she would not let this fucking kid do anything.

I would say, Periel, let him do this, let him go to the park. She was so, no, no, no. Such anxiety. Don't deny it. Let him watch this rated R horror movie. That too, yeah. And I was like absolutely, no, that wasn't the least of it. That was like a big part of it.

Do you believe scary movies affect children or any way? I'm kind of going to go on her side on this one. Let me tell you. It doesn't affect them. I mean, if you have a kid who. Wait, just every child? Because you're arguing a lot about like things are specific. No, I was just about to say.

Do you like, we just moved everything long when she said she agreed with me? No, no. I think she's going to agree with me. You have a parent. And if you're a sensitive parent, you have to understand. It's probably not good for my child because my child is very sensitive to these things or whatever. But my kids, it was clear to me, like my son, Benny was watching five nights of him. He loved it.

And he's not a violent kid. He's not going to stab his friends. No, that's not that. I mean, but I do think some kids, like, content can be really upset. Well, it could, it could upset them that night. They could cry. I'm saying it's up to them. If they like it, they like it.

I haven't been like a clockwork orange watching the movie. What do you mean if they like it, they like it? They were like eight, nine years old. why are they being put in charge of making these decisions that are above their pay grade? What moment were we talking about? Harry Potter? No. Oh, come on.

Don't do that. What were we talking about? I don't know. It was some like really scary horror movie. And there was a few of them, by the way. I know you would have to know us better to know just how unreliable she is. It's not true. It wasn't like that.

It's not true. You also let your kids stay up much later than I let. I do not. My kids are always in bed by 9, 10 o'clock. listen what time should they go to bed well i mean i think that during the week they should be in bed by nine o'clock but i'm not even talking about that i'm just talking about in general you're much more lax about that stuff than i'm it's not a criticism it's just like you're like i think you're wrong is the i mean you can think that i'm that's not true i'm a very much believer in routine

and i don't i know they need to sleep they need to go to school in the morning during the summer Yeah, I'm talking about the summer. That it's like, okay, if they fall asleep at midnight, like on the couch, like, that's fine. They can just sleep there. Getting back to the horror movie thing, is the concern that the kid will be traumatized? Yes. Or is the concern that he'll become violent when you see violence? No, I don't think he's going to become violent.

I think that it's traumatizing to see some of this stuff at eight, nine years old. I want my kids look back at their childhood and be filled with happy memories and thoughts. and I'm always very conscious. I weigh this in my head sometimes. I'm going to take a stand here. Like what really matters? Yeah. And school obviously does matter because of the trajectory that it can put something on.

And the rewards of doing well in school can be so – and I don't just mean money. I mean opportunity to do with your life what you want to do with your life, which is much more important than even money. and often leads to money, but you know, and so school is important. Other than that, you know, I mean,

they should be polite to people and all these things, but what is that? Like, I don't stress this other stuff, because I want them to have fun. I don't want them to get hurt. I'm not, it's like,

you're enjoying, you're having fun, you're playing a game, everybody's laughing and, and enjoying themselves. No, you got to go to bed. It's summertime, no,

I don't see it that way. I mean, I'm kind of on her, on your side on this. Like I get schooling. Like, but but I do think that like going to bed and putting yourself to sleep and like learning to kind of pay attention to those signals of like I'm tired. I want to go to sleep. Like that's a skill you learn from people letting you do it.

Like I've seen kids like at three, four years old just walk and go to bed. Like you know, like here in America like sleep is such a struggle for families. Right. Like it's like screens and sleep or like the things people always ask me about. and I think this stress of like this time can make it worse because what ends up happening is like the kid gets stressed. I'm not saying you're doing this. But like if you're really like, you have to be at bed at 9 o'clock, 9 o'clock, you can really stress the kid out at a time when they're trying to like figure out, you know, my signals to go to bed. And so like one of the things I tell parents is like just try to not make it stressful because stress is the opposite of sleep.

Well, it's not so easy to go to sleep on cue. Exactly. And that's what you're asking them to do, right? versus like, you know, there's all this data that show, like, in the summer, if you live in a place where the light changes, like, you don't need as much sleep. And, like, people's sleep cycles change. And so I think being more relaxed around the sleep time is probably more beneficial if it means, like, decreasing the conflict, decreasing the stress, right? Because all you're doing is revving them up. And I think we have adults that don't really even know how to kind of put themselves to sleep, right? Because it's like they've never learned. It's a skill, right? Oh, I feel tired. This is what I do when I'm tired. And some of my kids, I just fall asleep.

I mean, that's rare in our society. A lot of people have a struggle, really struggle. Women have more trouble in general sleeping than men, I believe. I don't know about that. I read it in, I mean, I think there's been more than one study. Like insomnia is, I think, more common in women. I see it in my kids, too. But, yeah, for people who have trouble.

sleeping, they, yeah, they have to learn certain age. Yeah, you have to learn like, okay, what does it feel to be tired? How does it feel to be tired? Okay, now what do I do when I'm tired, right? Versus like if somebody's controlling the sleep, like, okay, this time, now you do this, now you do this. If you look at this whole controlling children's sleep, so much starts in about 1700s Europe, before then kids kind of just did it themselves, you know, it was just a very kind of organic thing. Also, like if you have to be up at 7 o'clock in the morning, you probably shouldn't let your kid go to bed at like midnight. I totally agree. But I think if you, if you handle the screens, because the screens will completely mess this up. Oh, yeah, of course. Okay, so we can't even talk

about that. The kid is on the screen. It's going to be, this is all messed up. But let's say that we live in a world without these blue lights. The kid will learn with your, with encouragement and kind of, you know, to, oh, they'll be tired maybe a couple of days. days, you know, but like they will, they can't, they'll get it. They're designed to put, like, the circadian cycle is real and it really works. So you've got to give them a couple days or even a week to like learn like, okay, and you can encourage them. I'm not saying like just, again, like not just throw up your hands, right? But it's like if it's creating stress and conflict, which I hear a lot of families have, then you're shooting yourself in the foot.

There's another thing I do sometimes. When I'm asking myself these questions, I say, so, okay, how many adults have I ever seen with the problem I'm worried about my kid right now? That's a good question. Every adult figures out how to go to sleep. Like one of my kids was wetting the bed for a few years. And my wife was very, very upset about it. And I said, don't worry about it.

Do you know anybody who's the bed? In college? Yeah, I always say, do you know anybody who's been in college? Yeah. It's a pain. I don't want to make him feel self-conscious. I'd rather not even, like, he's aware he was. I don't even give him any stress about it.

Right. Because he's asleep. It's not something he can control. You can't yell and scream it on my promise not to do that again, right? And then he stopped. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I mean, I think it is the same with sleep.

I think if you talk to parents around the world, sleep is not a problem. And they go to school. I mean, this is like, because it hasn't been so micromanaged. Like we're really managing the child's sleep. So we're trying to manage, just like trying to manage them going to the bathroom. With the kid. Right? Like, go the bathroom now, you know?

Because it's a biological process. It's a physiological process. If the kid gets, instead of eight hours, six hours, how bad is that going to affect the next day? I mean, one day, nothing. You know, even a week is not probably going to do much. You know, you fluctuate, right? Like, the other night I got like three hours,

and I kind of felt bad, and so I went a bit early, right? Like, I mean, this isn't like something that's like seven hours every night, right? And it depends on their activity. It depends on the light. like on these dark days kids tend to be calmer you know so I mean I think we need to loosen up

like if you look at parenting around the world loosening up actually results in a better outcome okay now the screens now first of all I do not let my kids my kids spend too much on my screens but I do not let them go to bed with screens and I get them they read it they read

one thing I do recommend this is a scream but it's different I recommend Kindles interesting because obviously it's just liquid paper it's not like a screen right it's not the blue light, right? It's not the blue light, but they can turn all the lights out to read it.

And I would also recommend not being connected to the internet. No, when I go to bed, there's nothing. Yeah. They just have the Kindle. Okay. The Kindle doesn't, doesn't, doesn't, perfect. That is what is in this book towards the end. It talks a little, we use on book lights, you know?

Absolutely. I mean, the data are so clear on this. In fact, the data are growing on this, that, like, kids end up in adults, too, this vicious cycle of, like. It's awful. I can't go to sleep so I use the screen and then I can't go to sleep more so I use the screen more they even say it like in some study like vicious cycle

like and by the way it's real because I have a Kindle and if I if I wake up in the middle of night I take out the Kindle I fall back asleep immediately If I take my phone I do not There you go I do not touch and I don't know if it's the blue light It could be partially blue light

Or if it's also just the interactive nature of the phone Well the content the content Or maybe you're reading Perry L's book Keeping him away Still now, right? So I But the problem with the screen, the larger screen problem

is that it's very easy to say keep your kids off the screens But the game theory or whatever I want to call it Like the alternative is not the alternative Of our childhoods because No, it's not There is nobody outside on the street playing

No When I was, I live now in the same neighborhood I grew up in. Yes. After school, the streets were teeming with kids, with balls, that everything went out to play. Streets are empty now. So if Mike gets out on the screen, what's he going to do?

Well, that is where we start in dopamine kids. It's like this idea that you, like this advice is out there everywhere. New York Times, Atlantic, like, let them be bored, right? And this does not work. You are just setting yourself up for a complete failure. What you have to do is the kids have to first start to devise. some desire for other activities. They have to experience the joy of playing with their friends outside. They have to experience the joy of something else. And then you can start pulling back the

screens. So I'll tell you what we did with our kid, because you're right. Even in West Texas, like, kids aren't playing outside. We like teamed up with a couple other parents and we're like, look, we want our kid to play outside. They wanted their kids to play outside. You know, we let them ride their bikes around town together. And we got one family that was like, yes. And that's how it started, right? Like you have to seed something else before you start to pull it back. Once they- With basketball, we were like, okay, like I don't want him on the screens after school.

Like, what can he do that he's going to be around other kids doing something like active and healthy? Is this because they've tried playing outside and they prefer their screens or it's because they don't know anybody because they've never played outside? This is because the screens are intentionally designed to hold their attention. for as long as possible. I mean, that is absolutely been proven. Look, I live with a YouTube engineer and I watched that process happen. My husband worked there for 10 years.

These things have been designed to hold them there, right? And playing outside is not designed by a multibillion-dollar company to hold you there. And so again, you get in a vicious cycle. All the kids want to do, dopamine is wanting and desire.

It's not pleasure. Dolemen is things that pull us to them. So all the kids want to do is be on their screens. But evolution has programmed kids to want to run around. But evolution did not have YouTube. You know, they did not. We are in uncharted territories here because we have devices that are intentionally made to interact with our survival system.

The dopamine system is the survival system. And they are intentionally made to tap in there and hold your kid as long as possible. And AI is just going to make it work. So how does a YouTube video differ from what we grew up with, which was television? In what way, does YouTube hold you that a TV show didn't hold you? Multiple things. So number one, it has endless content for you, right?

Like when I was a kid, we had like five channels, right? And that's number one. And the kids programming went off after a certain hours. Oh, yeah. And it was boring as heck. Number two, they have AI, you know, with three billion people. people's data deciding exactly what video to pick so your kid will sit there. I mean, I'm not kidding.

The algorithm to select the recommendations has gotten insane. I mean, right? So you have endless content. You have content that's designed by multibillion-dollar companies to hold kids there. And then you have an algorithm that's selecting it for you. So this idea that kids are choosing content or you choose content is completely bunk. you are being funneled down a path of sustained attention. So for instance, this is all from meta,

what I'm going to tell you now, girls and eating. Meta the company? Yes, this is from the leaked documents. Girls and eating health recipes on Instagram. Girls start off, teenage girls, start off, okay, what's a healthy recipe? How can I eat better?

And then over time, what holds the child's attention on Instagram, Instagram, what keeps them there, is not healthy salmon recipes. It's very edgy, harmful, dangerous eating disorder content. And that is absolutely tapping to our survival system. You see a like a maciated person on an Instagram post and a 13 year old girl says, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, that scares me. I mean, you would feel that way and you're pulled to it. Right. So these are highly engineered products. This is not our 19. even our 2000s TV.

And now with AI, it's all about attachment. Have you heard of that, like the attachment economy? No. Where it's like instead of just attention, like you're, you know, you're basically, they're earning money from your attention. They're going to earn, they're earning money from our emotional attachment to these AI chat bots. Well, I tell you, the illusion is so powerful when you're talking to chat GPT.

I mean, and I, to a point where I feel like sometimes I'm embarrassed to tell chat Chabee D something or sometimes I want to tell chat GPD something because it's like, oh, chat TBT is going to think I'm smart. Wow. Well, it's a powerful illusion. So imagine that for a kid, right? Yeah, exactly. Imagine that for a 12 or 14 year old.

They'd have no clue, right? And a lonely kid, okay? A lonely kid, because when we're lonely, that's a need for a human being is loneliness. So it's just like when you're hungry, what happens? Like everything smells good, right? You want to eat everything. What's the same? When you're lonely, anything that feels like it's filling that is like even more desirable. Steve? You have two kids. You have any questions you want to ask?

Oh my gosh. Should the kids be allowed to smoke pot at the table? When's okay? I got a daughter of 16. I want her to be able to fly out to L.A. to visit my sister. Is it you solo? Oh, I would let her do it now. I'm thinking about letting my 11-year-old go to St. Louis. Yeah, nice. Okay. Yeah, I'm in. So, Steve, at 14 years old, something like that, I flew to Israel to visit my grandparents by myself with a stopover in Athens. And I had to get out. I remember going to the restaurant, Athens. And I don't even remember being particularly challenging.

We was like, what do you have? You got to read the gate and the thing. Was it fun? Yes, it was. And it was a different time. I mean, it didn't seem so outlandish then. No, it is a different time. Well, they also, the airline, you know, the stewardesses are trained, or the flight attendants are trained to, well, in those days, but they're trained to, you know, unattended minors, right?

Oh, yeah, they make you pay for, like, some escort service, not like that, sorry. Like, you know, some, right, right, right. I don't know about this. I mean, I don't know. Like, I don't know that I would send a 12. How old were you when you went? I think 14. 14.

14. But my, my father was very protective of me in certain ways. But he was never protective of that. He was always like, yeah, I'm not worried. He can get from A to B, you know. Now, of course, we didn't worry about molestation and things like that. Like, that wasn't really what we're thinking about in those days. And that's really what you're worried about, right?

Do you think that some of the anxiety comes from everybody being hyper aware of everybody else, what everybody else is doing? Oh, yeah, for sure. I think it also comes from what you guys are talking about right now. like we're really afraid of these things like molestation and abduction and stuff. But the data show that actually we shouldn't be afraid of that in your life. The data show that if I say to my wife. The data show that molestation isn't that bad?

No, no, no. We shouldn't be afraid of like kidnappings and abductions. Like statistically, they're very, very, I mean, this is Lenore stuff. They're very, very unlikely. I think we should be more afraid about what happens online. Yeah, I just want to clarify. If I say to my wife, in this story about it, but sweetheart the data

shock I'm not going to get it with your way she were like you and your fucking lawyer talk don't tell me about your data but you say your Jew lawyer talk or just your lawyer talk or just your lawyer's yeah she will say you and your white people and your data

white people do love data you have to admit but wait wait wait wait I'm last thing I'm last thing but we are it is but my wife notwithstanding we are not it's very difficult for us to parse one out of a thousand

one out of ten one out of a billion. We think that every single thing we see on the news, especially if now the news is covered like three of them around the world. It's just three in the world, right? Because the fact is, I don't know, how many billions of people now are within our daily ability to hear about something noteworthy to happen to them,

as opposed to when we were kids. That's where the anxiety comes from is everyone is glued to the news. Go ahead. I just want to say, I am much more concerned about like sex stortion and online stuff than I am about like molestation in the real world. Like I know that most of that happens from, you know, people who you know. So and my personal struggle is like, you know. That's why you won't leave them at our house.

Although that is interesting, God forbid, not your house. But I do see, I don't subscribe to this myself, but I do see a lot of people saying that like, that's why my child will never have a sleepover because you don't know who's older. I mean, there is something to that. Periel, you read this story in the New York Times. This is not children, but it's the same idea about this woman in France whose husband was drugging her.

Of course. And then she was raped seven, like when you hear a story like that, even if it's just one in the world, it is difficult to see the world again. The husband was drugging his wife? Yes. And then went online and was like getting strangers to have sex with her. Oh, good Lord. Right?

Forgive me, broke a, I can't, it's, it's, what? It's horrific. Giselle Pelicoe. Yeah, yeah. Isn't that her name? Can you get her on the show? She's heroic. I mean, she's incredible.

She's turned into this, like, real icon. The story is so horrific. I know myself. I would have said, oh, come on. I don't know if I really believe that, except that it went through a trial and there's video evidence. Like, it's actually not, I don't think, I just, you can't contest it. And it really happened.

She, she's, she's, incredible. So usually in France, like the, that she would be anonymous and she chose to be public. And all of these women, it was actually very moving, all of these women videotaped messages to her. And anyway, it was- By that standard, she don't know anybody. Yeah. No, no, but that's a horrific story. But I, my, I think that the screens to me are the really most dangerous things facing our children. I think that you read, story after story after story. And I've heard anecdotes from my closest friends who have children who are on social media, who are in really various states of really serious distress.

Yes. And because I don't, he does, my child does not have a phone yet. I do think that some of what you're saying is true that like I don't let him like out into the world quite as much as I know would be beneficial to him because I can't track him, which is ridiculous. Get him a Google. I don't want him to have a phone. I mean, in the old days, our parents, get him an Apple tag.

Well, okay. Why don't you give him a phone? He's going to talk to his friends already. Don't pressure her to give him a phone. I'm going to step in here. I don't want him to have a phone. It's bad for them. I see what happens to these kids when they have phones.

They're like this. Like, I see it with every single kid. Well, adults are like that too. First of all, this is why I say, right, his, her kid walks around with an iPad all the time. No, but no, it's completely different. My son's not, he uses his iPad during the week. Is it connected to the internet? So like, buy a phone and say you can go out with the phone and you give it back to you when you get home.

I don't think that that's realistic at all. Why are you pushing her? Well, either let him, no, because I think that the greater sin is not letting him go out into the world as she describes. It's like he's not out in the world. So either let him go out without the phone or get him a phone that you can track him if you'll feel better, but the worst of the scenarios is having the kid home like a veal. Well, I mean, let's not exaggerate. He, you know, he goes out by himself. No, I am exaggerating, but I'm extremely exaggerating. The kid, the kid's very healthy kid,

but I'm saying. Knock on wood, very well adjusted, and I don't know that, you know, how much responsibility I can take for that. I'm just saying, I do think that, I do think. A hundred percent. Mike Aline would say you take a good deal of that. Yeah. I do, I'm just saying that like if I'm being honest, like I think that I would let him do more if, but listen, I see what these kids are sending each other. I know. Have you, oh, I can show you text messages because, you know. It's mostly girls. No, it's not. Yeah, yeah, it is. No, it's not. No, it's not. The content that the girls are watching is so drastic. The boys. First of all, first of all, well, that's another. I am telling you. You can, you can see. You can see. everything on his phone. Yeah, no, I'm not, it's not him. Like, it's other people. It's other kids. It's other kids' older siblings. Okay. Okay. Okay. Everything you're saying is true in a sense, but it's as if you think that when we were wrong up, we didn't see Playboy magazine. Okay. Okay. Here's the thing. He's going to see it. No, there's the thing. I'm going to stop. Stop first.

It was very different. We saw it once in a blue moon. We have to clarify something. I don't know. What is on the web is not Playboy magazine. I did a story for NPR about this. 90% of what kids see is like either verbally or violently aggressive. No, I meant that. This is like not your 80s porn. I just meant that when her son gets to school or goes to a friend's house, the friend shows it to him.

I'm saying like, Oh, he's going to see it. I think that it's about age 12, but that's different than having access to it in his pocket. You know, I don't know. First of all, there's a lot of things. Like, I have all the. I have a router in my house that blocks all the porn sites.

That is a fantastic. I totally recommend that. And nevertheless. So how do you watch porn? I have a private account. But nevertheless, and I take no pleasure because it horrifies me. I know that he's, you know, he goes to his friends house. He goes here.

It's not just that though. It's Verizon data. But wait, no, for a second. I just want to really clarify. It's not just the porn. And it's also like the decisions that they make and the things that they say. Okay. But how do his friends call him now?

On his iPad. Oh, so it's operating like a phone. Well, it is, except that it's not in his pocket. He's not walking around. He does walk around with it. No, he doesn't. We've had fights at our house where I told you, why did you, why? When we go to Maine every summer, I tell the kids, no iPads, no screens.

Nice. That's what I do. Yeah. And she brings her kid with a fucking iPad. And I said, why did you bring the iPad? We said no screens. He really needs it. Well, I don't know if I said that he really needs it.

But I don't mind if he plays it for an hour a day. And the reason I was ready to put my foot down, because I know we're in Maine. We have her son, my son. So I can create a situation where they have no excuse to be bored. Right on the beach, go outside and play, go out and go out. And there's a TV in the living room. Yeah. So they can watch TV, which is also, in my opinion, social.

You put a movie on together. I don't feel this iPhone. No, they're watching YouTube bullshit. They can watch YouTube. YouTube is terrible. No, no. Yes, it is. No, no, it's not.

Okay. I'm sorry, but it's not. And nothing, this is the thing. None of these things are or aren't terrible. That's what's so insidious about it. Like my son can be watching, and he is, he's kind of nerdy. He watches stuff on YouTube that I'm very happy he's watching. He's watching science, something he watches, like really interesting stuff.

Yeah. My daughter's watching nonsense, right? Right? It's the same YouTube. My son spends a lot of time on chat GPT. It's on my account. I see what he's doing. It's terrific. He's asking, he's curious about the world. He's 12. He's 12, yeah.

It might change. It might change. I mean, if you look at the data, sorry, but if you look at the data, it changes. No, my point. What boys look up online. A ground that age. I'm sure he's looking at trying to find naked girls, too. But I'm just saying that it's not.

that YouTube is bad or chat TV is bad. It's that they're bad in the sense that they can create access to bad things. They also create access to wonderful, fantastic things. I agree with that. So do you see any upside for it? Oh, I think there's definitely upside. I mean, I use it to watch things when I work,

you know, when I'm investigating and stuff. I just think that most kids can't handle it. And I think they start off kind of maybe being able to handle it, some of them. But most kids will come to a point where they can't handle it. And they don't know how to put limits. No, they don't. And they can't be expected to either.

Adults don't know how. But it's actually, it's not the phones that are causing problems in my life. It's the frigging screens, the computer screens. I mean, it's the same. I mean, a lot of boys, you know, it's gaming, you know. And it is like what floats your boat. You know, some kids, it's food. Some kids, it's gaming.

Some kids, it's social media. And like, just like I was saying, you have to figure out what motivates them, like, outside of screens. You also have to figure out what's going to be their. problem. Yeah. Because our society will find it. Do you think gaming is a healthy thing to do?

I think gaming has changed a lot in the last 15, 20 years. You know, when I was a kid, the business model was they wanted you to lose, right? So you go buy a new game. They wanted you get frustrated. They wanted you to put more money in. Now it's all about your attention. It's all about holding you there. And they, and the game, use AI to figure out what holds you there.

I mean, this is, this is, these, these products, or not what they were. And I think that's some of the problem is that I think we come in as parents being like, oh, well, this is what I did as a kid. But these products are not the same. And they are, they are getting stronger. And by the way, you have different, I agree with everything you said. You have different problems for your kid that I have from my kids because she has an only child.

I was an only child. At their worst, my kids are, you know, in a pen with two other kids all the time. Yeah. So they're constantly bombarded with, with, social situation. Right. Interaction. Yeah. And the two brothers fight, but then they put the guy. Yeah.

That's quite a different thing than the kid who wakes up and he's the only kid in the house. I don't know. I was an only child, so. I have an only child. But like we have kids at our house. Yeah, we have kids at our house. Yeah.

We always have kids at our house. We do too. We do too. It's like every single weekend. There's constantly. And my husband's Israeli too. So it's a very communal kind of world. What did you say?

Very good. Aggressive. Um, Michaeline has to go. I'm getting, I'm getting, uh, Oh, okay. I mean, I'm enjoying it so much I hadn't kept track at the time. Okay. Okay.

Okay, thank you very much. Leave us with a, you know, some sort of final words. So, I mean, I think we, you know, we got into some, some heavy conversations, but the thing is, is like, we have the power to handle these things. We just need to have the tools. And the guidance out there right now doesn't work. It's dated. It's based on, like, psychology from 30, 40 years ago.

and this is like trying to update. Dopamine kids is like updating parenting advice with tools that like actually work. We didn't cover ultra-processed foods, but that, I don't think too much has changed from the 80s with regard to food. Are you kidding?

The same Doritos and Cheetos. I just got a paper in my inbox all about how describing how the tobacco industry has used the same formula they used on cigarettes to like maximize addiction on like crackers. Oh yeah. food has become, I don't want to. I mean, the snacks is the same snack.

No, no, they're not. No, they're not. No, they're not. There's so much more. And there's just so much more of it, right? It's very normalized for kids to eat like every hour. But especially these like crackers, pretzels, these like high-bar. They're not even food anymore.

No. It's totally different. I mean, you can look at our collective, not us, but our population's collective weight and our health problems, and you can see they're not the same. Talk about genetics. I have my youngest kid, Benny. He's just like me. All he wants to eat is fruit.

Interesting. Yeah, and I'm the same way. All the other kids, it is a problem. They like the snacks. Yeah, I mean, some kids, it's called like a food reward drive. My kid is like this, like food in the cues, pull them there. And other kids don't care. But when you have a kid with like a high food reward drive, you got to protect them.

And a lot of these snacks really are toxic. I mean, they just prevent you from actually eating real food too, right? Because they just fill you up. And they're expensive. The name of the book is dopamine. Kids, a science-based plan, or rewire your child. child's brain and take back your family in the age of screens and ultra-processed foods. Mickelene DuCleth.

Mycolette. My bad. Thank you for having me. Okay. Okay, Steve, that's it. Ah. That's our thing. Turn it up, Steve.

That's me playing, by the way. Oh, yeah. What are you playing? Bass, guitar, mandolin. There's something else. Like percussion in there? Yeah. a clarinet

keyboard part. You're playing all parts? Yeah. Not at the same time. He mixed them together.