The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Dr. Larry Durlofsky

Episode Date: April 21, 2023

Dr. Larry Durlofsky is a board certified psychiatrist with a master’s degree in pharmacology. He is the psychiatric consultant for NYC’s Metropolitan Jewish Health Systems managed Medicaid program and the NY and PA medical director for CHE Behavioral a nationwide psychiatric/psychology provider. 

🎵 This is Live from the Table, the official podcast of New York's world-famous comedy cellar, coming at you on the Sirius XM 99 Raw Dog and available as a podcast. This is Dan Natterman. I'm with Noam Dorman, who is the owner of the world-famous comedy cellar, the ever-expanding world-famous comedy cellar with locations in New York City and Las Vegas, Nevada. We also have with us Periel Ashenbrand, who is the producer of the show and also is our social media guru, I think,

along with Nicole Lyons, who's our sound person and also helps with our social media. How is everybody today? Noam is on his phone. I don't know. Do you have business you're dealing with? Well, this is the first invoice I've gotten for the design of the new comedy club we're building.

At the McDonald's, the old McDonald's, the former McDonald's. I have to send it to Juanita because I... Is it more or less than you were anticipating? The first invoice? Yeah. I didn't even look at it, actually. And you're planning it's going to be one room with a balcony, right? That's how you planned it?

That's how I planned it. One room with a balcony. We're having it designed by a company called Charcoal Blue. Charcoal Blue. They frond? No. And they're an internationally renowned theater design company. Did they design the box?

No, they didn't design the box as far as I know. But if you go to their website, they design a lot of fantastic locations. Well, we're all looking. They're absolutely unbelievably knowledgeable and fantastic to deal with. What about the logo? Are you working on that yet? I'm really excited for... I think we have a logo

for the Menachem Dorman Comedy Theater this is going to be the same thing except it's going to have a Jewish star in the background the logo is going to be similar I actually do have a prototype for what the sign is going to look like Morris, our graphic designer is in from Germany, he's down there

he's in the altar, he can show you when you go down if you want. Okay, I'd love to see that. Well, everybody's buzzing about it. Of course, it will be, you predict, two years or so until anybody— What's the buzz? I'd say everybody's excited, you know, but they look forward to it. But it'll probably be two years, would you say, from now, or a year and a half? What's your best guess?

A year and a half. I hope I live to see it. Oh, for the love of— Are you dying when we don't know about it? Well, we're all dying, but— Well, yes, but some of us are closer the love of God. Are you dying when we don't know about it? Well, we're all dying, but... Well, yes, but some of us are closer to it than others. Are you implying that... Not that we know.

I mean, that's not necessarily true. I guess this is as good a time as any to know. No, I'm not dying as far as I know. Yeah. But, you know, I'm 60 years old and things happen. That's really young. You know, one of the things... We have a psychiatrist coming on. Psychologist, happen. That's really, yeah. You know, one of the things, we have a psychiatrist coming on. Psychologist, psychiatrist.

He's a psychiatrist, but he went to an osteopathic medicine school. I don't know what that means exactly. Well, we'll find out. We can ask him. In any case, one of the things... He looks exactly like Jerry Seinfeld. One of the things I did want to discuss with him, and since you brought it up, I'll bring it up now,

is that everything I read, everything I read says that once you hit your 60s, your fear of death diminishes and your happiness increases. Oh, no. So you have not found that. Fear of death diminishing?

Yes, I hear that. Wait, that's got to be cognitive decline. Any idiot knows the closer you get to death, the more fear is supposed to be. Well, but that's what you would think. But somehow the brain adjusts to it. Not mine. Okay.

Not mine. Well, maybe it'll kick in in another couple years. Maybe when you start meditating and you become more one with Buddha, that'll happen. I mean, you know intellectually that you're closer to death, but you don't fear it as much.

For whatever reason, that's how the brain works, at least according to pretty much everything I've read. I'm petrified of it. Okay. I have young children. I have a new club to build. Well, I'm estimating you have a... And now you're calling me abnormal.

Hello. He's here. Oh, he's here? Well, okay, that's fine. Welcome to Dr. Larry Terlovsky. Is that Larry Terlovsky. Is that right? Terlovsky. We were just discussing that you look like Jerry Seinfeld, number one.

I bet you never heard that before. We were also discussing, Noam recently had a landmark birthday. He turned 60. And everything I've read, now you're a psychiatrist. Amy Schumer was just on my subway. She's on the subway? Talk closer to my who's that? Amy Schumer. Amy Schumer was just on your subway? She's on the subway? Talk closer to Mike. Who's that?

Amy Schumer. Amy Schumer was just on your subway? Her name is Michael. Michael Ciro. She was with Michael Ciro? Yeah. I wouldn't think she took the subway. Anyway, everything I've read suggests that once you hit 60,

your fear of death declines and your happiness augments. Is there anything to that? I've read that in many, many sources. The happiest decades are your 60s and 70s, in fact. Yeah. I guess your immediate fear of death might decline. But there's this fear of loss of control, loss of independence, a painful death. So those things all sort of go up.

Wait, can we introduce our guests? So you're saying that the 60s are not the happiest decade, like I've read of your life? No, no, I'm not saying they're not the happiest. You just asked me specifically regarding fear of death. Anyway, Larry Derlosky is a board-certified psychiatrist. Yeah, right. And, yes, what? I don't know, I'm just gonna,

I could describe myself. You can describe me. Well, and you have expertise in psychopharmacology, is that correct? I have a master's degree, yeah. I'm all about the meds, you know? All about the meds, okay. And a consultant for New York City's

Metropolitan Jewish Health System's Managed Medicaid Program. Right. And owner and medical director of Vista Medical Services, which serves over 120 nursing homes. So you know all about the elderly. That's my main. The elderly and mental health,

which is kind of what I'm asking. Yeah, no, exactly. I mean, you, again, I think that if you've had a, I've had many patients who were not happy about this was just walking in that are you know if they're not happy about what they've done in their life right if you're not happy about conflicts and I'd see many patients in long-term care in nursing homes who they're in nursing homes because they don't have family

that are there to take care of them so they have a lot of issue unresolved issues so well that's they're not seeing me if they're happy i think that that's ultimately you know there may be a filter there a little bit but i think that in general yes if you've done good stuff you could be happier as you're older but But then there's this loss of medical illness and pain. Elderly people worry about being in pain a lot. Aren't there drugs for that? Yeah, sure. But they've got bad side effects.

I mean, all drugs have side effects. People always think you take the drug and it runs to your finger and it just takes care of your finger. But it goes through your whole body. I mean, I'm not particularly pro-drug. You said you were very all about the meds. Well, no, I meant, you know, it's interesting because we can talk about therapy. And I've done therapy. I don't do a whole lot of therapy now.

I'm more a psychopharmacologist. But I do do. Yeah, yeah. And I, you know, yes. My wife's a psychologist. So she does therapy. I don't do a whole lot of therapy now. I'm more a psychopharmacologist. But I do do. And I, you know, yes. My wife's a psychologist, so she does therapy a lot, so I hear a lot about it. Well, you take issue with Noam. Noam is famously skeptical of therapy. He thinks pretty much anybody

can do it. Anybody with empathy and common sense can do as good a job as any MD psychiatrist or psychologist with a PhD. No, he didn't say psychiatrist. You said just like a therapist, right? Well, I said anybody. Obviously, a psychiatrist can prescribe drugs, but I'm not skeptical of drugs.

So are you doubtful of mental health care in general? Not the drugs. He thinks that therapy is just having someone to talk to, which he does agree is beneficial, but it could be anybody. Is that your position? Well, actually, I had mentioned this to Pariel. There are actually studies to show that the level of training is unrelated to the level of positive outcome.

Yeah, that's my point. There you go. That's all I've ever said. Obviously, no one wrote the paper. The connection and empathy, but the difficulty with quantifying successful therapy is where's the start and where's the end? How sad is the person at what point when they enter? And when do you decide that they are good enough? And even then you don't know.

When they run out of money. Well, no, no. Well, no, no, no, no, no. Actually, that was another question that Pariel asked, that if a patient runs out of money, do you kick them to the curb? No, that was my question. Oh, that was your question? I sent it through Periel. Okay.

You know, it didn't sound like Periel. It sounded more like her. So that makes sense. No, you wouldn't do – look, there's a question of – I actually asked my wife about this, and she was – you know, it's a question of how long the person's been in therapy, how long the connection is. There is a thought, and I think a reasonable thought, that there needs to be sort of, just like in legal situations, there needs to be sort of consideration that the patient needs to be paying something so that it's not gratis therapy.

Because then there's no skin in the game, I guess, on a certain level. We charge them for their own good, Dan. Yeah, I mean, I think there's something to that. I mean, he is a doctor. He's entitled to be paid. No, no, no. This isn't psychological. I'm a grudge from that rationale. This is if there is no investment, whatever it might be. First of all, I'm thrilled to be here.

I'm a comedy fanatic. But even what you're saying is interesting because you would never say that about an actual medical therapy. You'd never say, well, you need to have some skin in the game before I give you these antibiotics. Right, exactly, because there's no cognitive investment. You have to work on the change. You have to put energy into it. I mean, the other day on the podcast,

you were talking about when you were a kid, I guess, and you're in therapy, and you got an idea that they were trying to figure out, and you were out of there. You need to be willing. You need to be able to open up and examine and change. Be introspective. And I guess accept that you want to make some changes, that changes would be a positive for you.

If everything's going just great, then you don't need therapy, I guess. I guarantee you, chat GPT in a very short time, if not already, could give all the therapy that anybody needs. I mean, they just repeat the same things. Yeah, you need a human being saying it, but you know what?

I take that back because that even implies that there's training. I am skeptical of the whole notion that. You don't think there's a human interaction going on between all of us here in this room that is next level and sort of that's therapy involves that. To think that a computer could print out a statement of, you know, how do you feel about that, or your mother seems rather negative, I disagree. And I think that that will be proven without question. I don't think the secret to unlocking the mind is, um, is, requires a, you know, well, you already said it, it doesn't require a complex degree.

It's- Well, it's not, we're not, you know, it's not unlocking the mind. It's dealing with life, you know. My statement from my wife, the therapist, is that there's no cure for life. Life is an ongoing struggle and things happen and there are difficulties. I don't think anyone thinks that somebody's going to come into therapy, spend X number of sessions, and then bing. But here's the problem.

There's so many different types of therapy, so many different theories about it, right? And I'm presuming, I don't know this, that self-reported, every patient, no matter, regardless of the theory, will report the same kind of improvement. Not necessarily, no. I think that that's, I think there's a match. There's a match of people that will want to hear, you know, empathetic therapy, want behavioral therapy, want homework to do, want tasks to do.

I've heard that the cognitive behavioral therapy actually does work. Well, that's the because. That's what I've heard. Right. Because they can look at have you done, did you do the steps. Right. It's measurable in a way that talk therapy for lack of a better way of describing that but you you go to therapy because you get um a way to look at your life and

who you are in a way that maybe you wouldn't otherwise you get another perspective and you also get tools to deal with conflict right like if you had a fucked up childhood you grew up in like an abusive home and like you deal with conflict by like screaming if you go to therapy and you're actually invested in that then you start to learn oh like maybe there's a better way to like handle my relationship all right i, I take it back. Wow, wait! You know, it's also interesting, because I have listened to the podcast, and I know that I have two attorneys sitting here.

You have a sensibility that the law is an absolute, that there's an actual sort of end point to that. And you attack therapy and mental health treatment because it's not exact and there's nothing you can really hang your hat on and solid. And from my perspective, the law is all over the place. No, my feeling about therapy is that they create these motivations and attributed to things that happened to you in your past and all sorts of mumbo jumbo, which I don't think they know what they're talking about. And many of them are, I mean,

even Freudian stuff is still considered credible. Maybe I'm the one with the problem here, but you don't have early childhood things in your head that come up? You don't think that makes sense? Everybody has early childhood things that come up. But to then say that that's what's causing your personality, which we know when we measure it from a different angle,

is basically 100% genetic, is where— Whoa, whoa, whoa. What angle are you measuring? Well, there's so many studies about various attributes, personality attributes, and even happiness, which where, you know, children separated at birth from their parents and adopted resemble most of all their birth parent

much more than their adoptive parent. They have a lot in common, but they have a lot not in common. Let's give an example of an issue which is pretty much alcoholism. For years, we would attribute alcoholism to, oh, your mother did this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And now we know, Al, actually,

it's passed on genetically. Well, we know. Look, I'm not saying, I'm not saying. Actually, it wasn your mother did this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And now we know, Al, actually, it's passed on genetically. Well, look, I'm not saying... Actually, it wasn't all those things. Well, it was none of those things. Well, depression... It's in your blood. Look, depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, all psychiatric illnesses, many psychological illnesses are genetic and there are links, but there's also environmental influences

that can tip things. I really wish that I had identical twin raised separately. Because I'm interested to know if I could have been healthy and could have achieved all that I should have with a different upbringing

or if it was all just a genetic time bomb, you know, that would be nice to discover an identical twin that was somehow separated, and I would learn a lot. Now, we do have that. And some guy that could, you know, what if I found out my identical twin, you know, got laid in college? I'd say, well, it was possible. Now, what about comedian Rick Shapiro and his identical twin?

Are they identical? They look very much alike. I don't know if they... They may just be twins that look alike. Fraternal. And they may not necessarily be identical. Oh, I was under the assumption they were identical. They probably are.

He had a substance issue, right? Am I right about that? So what about them? Well, that would be an interesting study because one of them, we know Rick has had all sorts of ups and downs. And his brother always seemed to be healthy. Rob Shapiro seems to be healthy? I'm not going to get into Rob Shapiro, but no. We can discuss this off air, but they both have plenty of issues.

But your premise. They're both very, very brilliant. We've all seen Three Identical Strangers. Go ahead. Right, right. But your premise seemed to be, and what I was sort of responding to, and there seems to be a sensibility that I end up bristling at rather regularly,

is that therapy is bullshit. And you said that, I think, a few minutes ago. Well, it sounds like me. Yeah, exactly. And that's what I don't understand. Okay, but Noam agrees that talking with somebody that's empathetic and has common sense is going to be valuable.

Well, then therapy's not bullshit. But what he thinks is bullshit, I think, is the science of it. What are you bringing to the table as a therapist that just a regular layperson couldn't bring to the table. Experience with people who have, there's, first of all, there's a structure, you know, there's a structure in terms of allowing people to get to, you know, conclusions and not interrupting and not being overly directive and things like that. But there's also an experiential thing in terms of just having dealt with people who you know, conclusions and not interrupting and not being overly directive and things like that.

But there's also an experiential thing in terms of just having dealt with people who are having issues and see what works. When someone's talking to you about their childhood, say... Again, I'm not... I think I didn't realize the conversation was going to focus entirely on this because I'm not the person to really speak to having great experience.

But I do have a question. It's not going to focus entirely on that. We can talk about other things. that. We can talk about drugs. That was a joke. When somebody has therapy and then you begin to see a difference in the way they behave, how do you describe whether it's they've changed or they're controlling themselves? Because I've known people like, oh, I used to get angry all the time. And it's clear they're still getting angry.

They just learn to not show it. I mean, ultimately, if I have pain in this shoulder and I have the muscles around it compensate so that my shoulder doesn't hurt anymore who cares my shoulder doesn't hurt anymore right I mean it doesn't the perhaps the the damaged muscle muscle has not healed itself you're doing better well maybe you're maybe doing better but maybe also you're you're you're dealing with more stress and and taking up more bandwidth because you're controlling yourself. And maybe you are doing better because you're greasing your you're lubricating your life. So like an alcoholic

is always an alcoholic. He's doing better because he's not drinking. Taking constant, tremendous self-control to not drink. As opposed to if you could talk to an alcoholic and say, you know what? After this conversation I don't want to drink anymore. That would be a

game changer. If therapy could get you not only not to drink anymore, but not to want to drink anymore, that's a totally different thing. I think that that speaks to having a level of sort of effectiveness through

psychopharmacology that we don't quite have yet. I mean, there are antidepressant, people get on antidepressant medications, they don't cry as much, they sleep better, they're more motivated, they eat better, pain might go away. So that I think is just a question of can we tune things up a little bit more. But I guess my – I don't – I'm confused about what's bad about being aware of self-destructive behaviors, difficult behaviors. And controlling them and managing them. There seems to be – the way you describe it, it makes it seem like painful, heavy lifting. There's nothing bad about it. For me, it's been, you know, because we've all had our stuff.

And, you know, I'm aware. I can feel it happening. I think that's not going to do any good. It's not going to get me where I want to go. So I'll stop doing that. There's nothing bad about it. It's just I've had, I know a lot of therapists and they'll,

you know, tell about a problem and they will pontificate me. That's because blah, blah, blah. Well, look, I mean. And a bubble over my head is really like, that's because you have a degree.

You think you know what it's because. You're like, you're just, you're just showing your badge and telling me what the law is. Like, I haven't, I don't,

it's all, to me, it's all an illusion. Nobody knows what it's because of. Yeah, you're right to identify this person has issues. We all know your issues. You know, when you have issues, everybody knows them. And to think, I mean. Are these, Pete, wait, are these, these are licensed practitioners that are making statements about people that are not in treatment with them?

They're just kind of mouthing off about what they think is right or wrong. I don't know how to answer that, but. Okay. Listen, I do believe that serious trauma. I should not talk. Anything I'm saying is about everyday like issues, like what it means to be, you know,

raped as a child in terms of that. I don't have sufficient feel for what kind of training might be important to talking to somebody with that level of trauma. So let me, let me rope that off. Right, because that's real stuff. Yeah, I don't know what I'm talking about there. I'm talking about just the shit that most of my friends have,

which I just regard as it's their personalities, and if they're open to working on their own personalities, they could talk to almost anybody, and they could probably get pretty much as far as they're going to get with the person with a PhD. And that's just been my opinion for a while. And it hasn't been, I haven't been disabused by any personal experiences

I've had with therapy or by personal conversations I've had with therapists. But, you know, I also say it to be a little provocative because I know it bugs people. No, no, I know you do. No, I mean, look, I think that that- Maybe I should talk to therapists about why I enjoy that. say it to be to be a little provocative because i know it bugs people no no i know you do no i mean i look i think that that maybe i should talk to therapists about why i enjoy that but well no i look i think that um look how many how many people go through orthopedic surgery procedures and end

up messed up right i mean everybody the hip replacement is supposed to be you know smooth sailing and then i've heard a couple cases of people's legs being mismatched i mean so you're there's nothing that's curative and absolute etc etc what i think though is i think that therapy in general can be a positive and can be very, very helpful for people. And I was responding to your kind of things, which I, you know. So let's talk about the other hot issues in the world of mind

issues. Dan has a bunch of talking points. Well, I... Do any of your talking points have the word trans in them? No. I do want to get to the transition. I was going to bring a Bud Light in. Well, it's the hottest psychological issue in the planet right now.

Okay, we'll talk about that. I just had one question that I think I've asked other therapists before, but I'll ask you if there's any. Now, you don't do a lot of therapy, but you used to. Yes. And your wife does therapy. Yes. Are there patients that you look forward to?

Say you had, like, you know, I don't know, Springsteen. I mean, he was in therapy famously, got very depressed when he turned 60. I mean, well, I read his autobiography and went to therapy. Now, you've got to figure a therapist has got like, I can't wait. I got Springsteen today at 3 p.m. Sure. I mean, are there clients or patients? I don't like the term client.

I like the term mental patient. Are there mental patients that you look forward to talking to more than others? And others, you're just like, oh, God, this guy's a fucking boy. This fucking optometrist is going to... Well, look, I mean, you know, people are people, right? So, look, you know, what occurred to me when I read that question on the list was, you know, and comedians often talk about this. Sometimes you use that charisma and that entertainment to get off the topic and to not really deal with what the issue is and to entertain the therapist. And I've heard people with talent talk about that, that they will do that and they realize they just spent whatever they,

they spent 45, 50 minutes just, you know, keeping somebody else laughing, et cetera, et cetera. The job of a good therapist would be to try and move things back. But of course there are people you like more than other people, but that's the job is to try and help. What does Springsteen call you? He goes, I don't do a good Springsteen impression, but he says, I need therapy, but

I don't really want to pay you very much because I'm Bruce Springsteen and you should be happy to have me on your coach because I got great stories about him. Look, I mean, I don't think that this is anything that anybody else wouldn't think, but clearly he's trying to control the therapy.

He's not invested in it in some way. So you would say, well, forget it? Or you would pass up the chance to meet Bruce Springsteen? Would I pass up? If Bruce Springsteen is negotiating for rates, I mean. Obviously. If Bruce Springsteen is negotiating for rates, I mean, if you're an attorney and Bruce Springsteen calls you up and says, I know you charge $8.50 an hour,

but I want to meet Bruce. But you're not a Bruce fan. I want to meet Bruce. Okay, well, then you would do it. If I was an attorney and Bruce Springsteen was negotiating for rates that way, I'd say, you need therapy. Yeah, obviously Bruce wouldn't do that.

But I'm saying my point is, how psych would you be to have Bruce on your couch? Or would you be just like any other? Well, look, the job is still the job, right? I mean, it's still a human being that, he was in anguish. He was really sad. I mean, I've read some of the comments and he,

I mean, it's sort of what's, whatever. I mean, I've read some of the comments, and he... I mean, it's sort of... What's... Whatever... I mean, he's in front of a stage, and people are cheering thousands upon thousands of people. He's an icon, but he's empty inside in some way, so that's sad. Okay, but there's a famous scene in The Godfather where he says,

Godfather, I'm never going to get this movie. And he says, you can start by being a man! That's what I would say to Bruce, you can start by being a man. That's what I would say to Bruce. You can start by being a man. Enough of this kvetching. Do you use the word kvetching in your office? Well, so you are part of the snap out of it school of depression?

For Bruce Springsteen? I'd either give him drugs or tell him to stop being a bitch. Because you're Bruce Springsteen. Wait, wait, wait. Now you're just playing. Just because he can perform a great concert doesn't mean that he's not in anger. I mean, also Robin Williams, you would say that too? No, I think Robin Williams needed medication.

Well, Robin Williams actually was a sort of perfect storm of very, very difficult things. He had Parkinson's disease, so he had dementia related to Parkinson's disease. I thought it was Lewy body dementia. He also had, he had, I'm not sure if they went that far. You have to really look at the tissue to be exact about it. But he also, he had had open heart surgery.

And open heart, when they crack a chest for some reason it really makes people different and we're not necessarily depressed but different just very very different largely depressed i don't know if they if that the person looks down at the scar but there is just something that happens to people really yeah, it's a big deal. And not everybody has it, but it can happen. And he also had a show. It got canceled. So it was just this sort of perfect storm of things. There is no correlation.

I mean, he was a previous, I mean, he had substance issues in the past, so his brain chemistry was fachotted. There you go, that's a word, fachotted. There's no correlation between talent and wealth and not feeling empty inside or depressed. I mean, that's ridiculous. This is a comedy podcast.

I don't know. You're probably right. And also... It's not talent and wealth. It's that there's something almost narcissistic about having every single thing in the world good that anybody could dream of and complaining. Unless, again, unless you have some sort of illness

that requires medication. Yes, and Bruce Springsteen had an illness called depression. Right, so then he should get medication. And or therapy. But the therapy in that situation would be, snap out of it, you've got everything you want. No, that would not be the therapy. There's something that I... No, I mean of it. You've got everything you want. No, no, that would not be the therapy. There's something that I...

No, I mean, don't you listen to Gary Goleman? He talks about the snap out of it and how wrong that is. Gary's had, was it electric shock? I think it's had ECT. Over the years, I have tried Pamylor, Nortriptyline, Welbutrin, Zoloft, Paxil, Abilify, Adderall, Ativan, Klonopin, Diloxetine, Mirtazapine, Sertraline, Apexa, Celexa, Zyprexa.

At one point, my doctor said, let's just try drugs that rhyme. Thank you, Dr. Seuss. Yeah, yeah. Gary has issues. I mean, I love Gary, but I'm like... Okay, but first of all... But you don't snap out of it.

You need therapy and or drugs and or ECT. Right, right. I feel like people are ganging up on him. No, but Matt... Well, he deserves it. I just want to say one thing. There's something in the way you're talking about this as if the patient... as if the patient,

as if the patient, because that's the way I think of Bruce Springsteen right now, as if the person is enjoying or manipulating. That's exactly what I was going to say. There's an enjoyment to having people solicitous to you for your problems. I mean, there might be. And there is something healthy about saying, dude, we have to work up on you to see if you have some sort of chemical problem. Otherwise, you need to get over this because

me sitting here listening to your feelings is just encouraging you to think that this could go on forever. You're like a guy from Queens in the 1950s. I mean, I swear. No, Mr. Splat. Well, I said last week.

Do we not raise our children this way? Is there some point you'd say to children, hey, enough is enough. Stop whining. Wow. Complaining about everything. I really can't believe you're saying this. I mean, of all the things you've said on this podcast. I never liked Bruce Springsteen.

You know. You are, you are just, I'm jealous of Noam. He's so far removed from depression. He so doesn't get it. You're not listening to me. I'm jealous of Noam. He's so far removed from depression. He so doesn't get it. You're not listening to me. I'm saying if it's depression, that needs to be treated. Of course it's depression.

Right, but then I'm saying they give him the pills. I said that over and over. But do you think the pills is some sort of like magic? Yes, it is. No, it's not. Not only that,

they don't even know why it works, but it works better with a chant. I got... But you know, what's... But the therapy also can work in conjunction with medication. And exercise.

It's not just like, take this and you're going to quote-unquote snap out of it. Wait a second. Listen, you are an incredibly accomplished man. You are. What you've done with the cellar, no, it's true. And it is an amazing place and the way you operated i've been to a lot of comedy clubs as i said i'm brand and it's it's

the best comedy you you often say it's the could be the best comedy club in the world but go ahead no no no but if you were to come to me yeah and say you know what? I just, despite all these external accomplishments and my marriage and my children and friends, et cetera, et cetera, I just feel empty and sad inside. I would never think of saying, just get your shit together, dude. I mean, what are you? Okay, let me put it a different way. Is there such a thing as feeling sorry for yourself

in a way that somebody should say to you, stop feeling sorry for yourself. Enough of this already. You're doing it to get attention, and because everybody caters to you, you're one of the most famous people in the world, everybody's just going to, and it's self-perpetuating. Stop feeling sorry for yourself.

Get over this. Yeah, but yes, and behaving that way is ultimately self-destructive the person is not accomplishing what they could accomplish because they're they need all these people to kiss up to them and sort of be nice to them so sure yeah that's all i'm saying okay what noam is saying is are there instances where depression is or mental illness is no more than a cry for attention or a seeking attention. When you say depression, you're talking about the disease. Being depressed is what you're saying.

Being depressed and being depressed are not the same thing. Noam is asking, is it sometimes just an attention grab that people complain about? People get addicted to the attention. Kind of emotional blonde hair. I mean, it's just like, I don't understand that, sorry for the blimey, but I mean like women change their hair color or something. There's a difference

between crying out for attention. No, no, men. Let's talk about other issues. Alright, no one's tired. Wait, wait. There is one thing that I do feel incumbent upon me to say, which is that if you were the person that somebody's

going to for therapy, I think that you would be disproving your own point because certainly nobody's going to feel better going in and trying to talk to you and you being like, oh, just snap out of it. I don't know, but I think there is something about having somebody solicitous of you in an over-the-top way which might actually be counterproductive sure there is bad there are bad therapists and there could be bad therapy and

if people aren't confronted by you know ultimately self-destructive and self-limiting behaviors that's not good and if especially i mean you're there's this kind of like money money grab thing kind of underneath it like if a therapist is keeping somebody hooked and etc etc that's all bad stuff that's not good and certainly there are bad therapists right like if we were talking about this dan and i were talking about this before i mean i've been to therapists that just weren't very good so that hasn't been as helpful as going to therapy. There was that story about the therapist that jumped out the window. Was that your...

My friend did have a therapist fall asleep. I was told that I'm supposed... I'm speaking as a private citizen, not professionally here, and, you know, just through my experience. Well, Noam, I guess, wants to talk about trans. Oh, I... I want to talk about this.

What do you think with this medication in the Supreme Court and the FDA? Do you know what's going on there? About the abortion thing? Yeah. I've been afraid to look into that. I hope they don't do something stupid. Well, can you tell me what the basis is?

Well, there were some attempts to limit the availability to the induced labor pills. The Plan B pill? I don't think it's Plan B. It's a, you know, sort of next-day abortion pill, and what's happened is that the courts are stepping in this guy from Texas,

I guess. It was a next-day pill, or even weeks later. I think it's a combo. You have to take this one, then you have to take another one, then you have to take another one. But the courts stepped in and are almost going to commandeer the fact that this was an FDA-approved medication and anti-abortion docs

and people are saying that the medicine wasn't approved in a reasonable way. Or they're prescribing it off-label. My big picture outlook on all the abortion issues is that we are going to settle into a pretty good situation. I don't even believe that pretty good for people who are pro-choice. I don't even believe that in the most conservative red state, they actually want to outlaw abortion. And as we know, Kansas had a referendum and opted not to ban abortion, and Kansas

is like the most conservative of the... Why do you think that that's true? I don't think that... Because they talk a good game, but the fact is that I don't think a majority of people, and there's a lot of peer pressure, but I don't think a majority of people actually want to see abortion outlawed very early.

I don't think that that's true at all. Have you seen what's going on even in places like Ohio and Alabama? I mean, Florida just passed something six weeks. I think I have read that polls do show most Americans want, are pro-choice at least to some extent. Very few Americans want complete bans on abortion. A minority of Americans want complete bans on abortion. A minority of Americans want a complete ban on abortion.

And this is true even in red states, as I've read. My position on abortion, going back to when I was in law school, I've never been able to get past this, was that I didn't understand how in the concept of a free society,

one could not expect that the decision of when to protect a growing fetus that at some point is even viable and obey whatever it is, that that decision would not be something which a free people would decide democratically. I don't like that. I wish I could impose my choice on that particular issue, but that's not really the way it works. And I've always felt that way, and I never thought that Roe versus Wade was correctly decided. But I think that most of the evidence shows, now DeSantis is obviously pandering right now with a harsh measure because he thinks it'll help him in a presidential primary because the primary voters do not represent the general population at all. The primary voters are the real hardcore fanatics, and he wants to position himself to the right of Trump on this issue.

So, you know, shame on DeSantis. But zooming out, everything I see indicates that the country, even in the right, like they all said, repeal and replace, repeal and replace Obamacare, right? We all heard that over and over and over. And finally, when it came down, the Republicans had all three branches of government and it came time to repeal Obamacare. They couldn't do it. They didn't do it. All we heard about was how they're going to get rid of Obamacare. So you don't think the religious zealots on the Thomas Supreme Court are capable of... No, I don't think so. You don't?

I don't think the... I think the Supreme Court... I can't speak for every member of the Supreme Court. I think the majority of the Supreme Court feels that abortion should be left to the states. I don't majority of the Supreme Court feels that abortion should be left to the states. I don't think that that's... That's what the... If you read Dobbs, that's what it says. And there's no reason to think that it's not...

It doesn't mean what it says. Well, I can tell you that this case that came up about the next day, because I was watching this, I thought it might get discussed here. They didn't make a decision. It was like a midnight decision. They gave themselves a few more days to decide whether or not the FDA can make decisions

about what medicines are safe for the American public. Well, I'm sure the way you're putting the issue is not quite right. That's kind of a tendentious way to put it. But there's a lot of doctrines that go on with whether a court decides something. There's standing. There's also this rule that they shouldn't decide something unless they absolutely have to, and that they should decide it in a least disturbing way, like least interfering way. So there's a lot of reasons they might not wade into something which might not reflect how they feel about that issue. So anyway, let's see what happens.

But I sure hope they don't stop that. I mean, it seems futile because obviously you can go on the Internet and you'll be able to order these pills. No, no, they're going to stop that. They're shutting that down. How are they going to shut that down? They're shutting down mail. They can't be produced and sent by mail. And you're not allowed? You can't be, but how are're going to stop that. They're shutting that down. How are they going to shut that down? They're shutting down mail. They can't be produced and sent by mail.

So you know what's interesting? You can't be, but how are you going to stop it? The doubt that you have about my profession, I have about your form. How are they going to stop it? They'll walk into a factory that's packing them, and they'll shut them down. In another state? Yes. Just explain to me how you're going to do that.

I will. So New York produces these pills. Okay. And then if you're the doctor who is receiving them, you can lose your license. They're even talking about pressing charges. No, they're even talking about pressing charges against the women who are ordering the pills. Don't you know that abortion clinics are getting shut down all over this country? Listen.

Private abortion clinics. Let me ask you this. And of course, there's always going to be individual cases where you could be right. But if this was so simple, why can we not stop all the people dying of pharmaceuticals in this country? This is completely illegal. And we have the highest rate of death from fentanyl and opioid, all the opioids. Well, look, I'll tell you, we can, you would think they can make some, if what you're saying is true,

you'd really think they can make some dent in opioids. Have me on again and I'll talk about, because I was in training when OxyContin came out, and I watched the medical profession shift, and pain became, I don't know how many, the fifth vital sign. You needed to evaluate pain. We as physicians were not adequately treating pain. There was just the Sackler family,

and they did a great job at shifting and marketing the family was were pharmaceutical marketers that was the grandfather's job and so they came up with a chemical and they went out and marketed it and they changed the entire and people were dying and it was clear and no one nangolden really the artist Nan Golden, the very famous photographer, she rallied so much against the Sackler family. She got them taken off, right? From the Met.

Yeah, from the Met. They donated millions and millions of dollars. They had huge exhibits there. I mean, it's totally criminal. I really thought the Supreme Court could have legalized abortion in the first eight or ten weeks. I've given my theory on that before as a religious thing.

But beyond that— What if you don't know you're pregnant? What if you can't get an abortion in the first eight to ten weeks? What if suddenly your health is in danger? What if you're a young girl that was raped by her father or her uncle? I mean, there are all of these insinuating circumstances. You're right. This is what, but this is.

Thank you. So, so wait, I didn't know this about, so you're, you're anti-choice past a certain date kind of thing? No, I'm not anti-choice. I'm pro-choice. Well, past a certain date. No, we all are. I mean, you don't want, you know, there's.

But that's the thing. Anti-choice past a certain date. What's the date? And who gets to decide that? And so your concept is eight to ten weeks. No, I thought the Supreme Court could have protected it in the first ten weeks. I don't know what I'm comfortable with. But I know that my son was born premature.

And in New York, the day before, we could have just had him killed. Okay, don't use language like that, though, because it's totally inflammatory. Yes, don't say killed. It is. No, no, it's not. It's actually not inflammatory. What you're trying to do is temper the language to not say exactly what it is.

If my son was born on a Tuesday, a healthy baby, and Monday I could have terminated him that's a euphemism what if it's not a healthy baby though but he was a healthy baby I don't have to prove that he wasn't healthy what if suddenly

somebody finds out that it has spina bifida that's not the hypothetical that actually happened I'm saying in New York you can basically get an abortion on demand to the very end. I would not approve of that. So who's supposed to decide that? Well, I mean, I live in New York.

That's what it is. That's the democratic process in New York. All the arguments that you can make on behalf of these poor girls raped by their parents. Well, I can say, what about this eight-month-old baby that was killed? So you'd be a great patient because you never have to say, how do you feel about that? Because you're just right there. But you do understand, like, you want to focus on the tragedy

of the young mother or the rape victim. And you're right, that is a tragedy. But you don't want to focus on the tragedy of these viable fetuses who were killed. And, of course, if you kill them the instant they come out of the mother's womb, the instant if you kill a baby then, you are considered

in the top rung of hell of murderers. You didn't just murder somebody, you murdered a newborn. They say, wait a second, but five minutes ago you said that was my right, and now something magical happened as it passed through the birth canal and it became imbued with

not just the right to live, but the all, this does not hold up. And it's about time people who are pro-choice admit that there's flaws here. So how are we going to decide all this? We're going to decide it by being a democratic country. And in certain states, they're

going to opt on this way, and certain States are going to opt on this way. And you know what? Neither of them are going to be tragedy free. That's the fucking way it is. And also it's worth stating that the percentage is like infinitesimal. When you start quoting percentages, you know, we, we all roll our eyes because you make this stuff up. I don't, it's true. And I'm, what's the percent,

what's the percentage of people raped by their fathers who have abortions? Probably high. Anyway. Did you want to discuss trans with the good doctor? Where are you on Dylan Mulvaney? What's Dylan Mulvaney? Oh, well, that's her name? Yes, that's her name.

She's the woman with the beer can. Well, I feel sorry for the marketing director. Oops. Well, we have a psychiatrist. I feel sorry for the marketing director, the woman. Oops. Well, we have a psychiatrist. Don't you want to discuss the scientific issues of trans? Sure. I mean, otherwise he's wasted.

Look, I don't treat trans people. I can tell you that when I was in training. As a rule? You refuse to treat trans people? Yeah, exactly. Well, unless they pay me. No, look, I've had trans patients in nursing homes, actually. I don't know if they were surgically... If they had had a reassignment surgery.

Exactly, exactly. Or they just dressed. You're not a very good doctor if you can't tell the difference. Right. Well, I'm not examining there. So when I was in training, there was a high rate of suicide amongst individuals that had surgery to change their sex. It was, but I don't know if the techniques were better now. It's clearly a community now.

But was there a higher rate among those who were trans but didn't get the surgery? Was that an even higher rate? Look, it's a, you know, the thing about it is that it's a horrible place to be. I Look, it's a, it's a, you know, the, the, the thing about it is that it's a horrible place to be. I mean, it's a very difficult, I can't imagine. I mean, I've read things that trans people have written talking about their bodies and their sensibility of seeing their bodies and finding their, you know, genitalia disturbing.

Do you think, and it made this be well beyond your wheelhouse, well beyond your expertise. Yeah, at this point I'm just talking. Do you think that there is a, that the best solution for somebody who is trans is surgery and hormones, or that is there a way to, or can therapy and or medication help them to be comfortable in the bodies that they were born with? I can emphatically say that I do not know.

Well, I think it varies. I think that there are trans people who are not interested in having reassignment surgery. And then there are trans people who are. So I think. But my point is, among those who are interested in having reassignment surgery, and then there are trans people who are. But my point is, among those who are interested in having reassignment surgery, is there a way to make them more comfortable in the bodies they were born with so they no longer wish to have reassignment surgery? I think the issue, I mean, Noam was just talking about age and time and stuff like that.

The question is, what age? At what point do you allow that? And that's what's, like, in the courts now. I think there's all kinds of things being contested about whether or not schools will allow it and kids can be transit. They're kids, you know, at age 30. And when the hormones start, everything else changes.

So you change everything. So I think, and again, I don't know, but I think it's difficult to go back. The problem with all these, there's so many problems with this trans issue, so many complicated things to think about. In no particular order, first of all, there is a social contagion. We know that there's social contagions for suicide. Why would there not be social contagions for people who feel that they've become trans? Number one.

Number two. Do you see that issue with your kids and their friends? Yeah, I have seen it with my kids and friends. Number two, the science is all over the place. And we know that the people who are responsible for administering these treatments are very often true believers with agendas. There's a big, you know, Free Press had an article by a woman who basically became a whistleblower on a trans clinic where she was working, showing how they were ruining people's lives.

But, for instance, just the notion that a boy who is given hormone puberty blockers can likely never have an orgasm. Like, this is a huge thing. I mean, I'd have to ask my wife what it's like, but I'm sure it's not. You know, in other words, it's a major thing. And in these conversations about this stuff, that's not put front and center. Like on the one hand, maybe yes, but on the other hand, you're going to have serious sexual dysfunction. You're not going to experience, you know, some of the most important parts of life. Number three, there is tremendous bigotry on the part of some of the people who have the better of the argument, in my opinion. You know, when you hear people who are skeptical of some of the whole quickness to have conversion therapy and all that stuff, you can smell the schoolyard bully in them.

And that disturbs me very much. The way they insist on calling people a trans woman he or something like this, just this gratuitous cruelty, it seems to me, which makes me extremely uncomfortable, even when I agree basically with their points. I find it very disturbing and makes me wary of what they're telling me. As far as where the whole trans movement is going, I think I said this before, but if the goal of every civil rights movement

is to show we're just like you, if dehumanization is the root cause of bigotry, humanization is how you break down bigotry. So we're just like you. We want to have families. We want to live wholesome lives. We want to work hard. We want to get fulfillment. We want to have the same values.

The gay pride parade, for me, was always kind of a strategic mistake because, of course, it was raucous and fun, but it had huge phallus symbols and all sorts of, you know, bare asses and whatever it is. So Americans would look at it and say, oh, actually,

they're not just like me. It's almost as if the Jewish Day Parade was just like dollar signs and banks and, you know, like, what do you, but when... And little fellas.

Yeah, but little fellas. But Andrew Sullivan et al., their huge insight about gay marriage, and when little fellas, yeah, but a little fella, but Andrew Sullivan at all, they're huge insight about gay marriage and I, and I didn't see it was that this would show people we are just like you. And all of a sudden people saw their friends getting married or people didn't even know we're gay getting married and say, Oh shit, they want to have families. They want to settle down. They want to, you know, live normal quote unquote normal lives. Oh, I'm, quote-unquote, normal lives. Oh, I'm open to it.

Yeah, bring it in. And you saw the whole opinion, general acceptance of homosexuality just whiplash the other side, I believe, very much because people got that insight. They're just like us. With this trans thing, you would think that the goal of the trans movement is to convince people we're just like you. All we want to do is go to work, have our families, do our professions, work hard.

But the face of the movement has become this Dylan Mulvaney who's talking about normalizing the bulge. Again, this phallic... Now, we wouldn't tolerate a straight person for a minute walking around saying, I want to normalize the bulge. Again, this phallic... Now, we wouldn't tolerate a straight person for a minute walking around saying, I want to normalize the bulge in my pants. This is not...

But somehow we cowed because this is the trans woman saying, oh, that's fine. Of course, let's accept this woman. I'm saying, well, no, you can be extremely sympathetic and 100% correct on this woman when saying, but you know what?

This is gross. We're not going to give up surrender to vulgarity. If your view of yourself is important to talk about your penis and the bulge in your pants, then that's not anti-trans to say, you know what?

I don't need you in front of my kids normalizing your bulge. That doesn't make me anti-trans. I don't want anybody normalizing their bulge in front of my kids. Wait, but is she saying that normalizing the bulge. That doesn't make me anti-trans. I don't want anybody normalizing their bulge in front of my kids. But is she saying that normalizing the bulge is normalizing her... She became famous with this video. She says, I wear these tight pants, and I saw people staring at me, and I realized, oh, it's the bulge in my pants,

and I don't want to tuck because tucking is painful. So I decided, you just have to normalize the bulge. I normalize the bulge! And she you just have to normalize the bulge. And I go, normalize the bulge! And she sings this song about normalizing the bulge. And somehow she parlayed that into a meeting with the president, and now on the Budweiser campaign. I was like, you know what? I mean, I don't even care, but, like, I don't care.

But this is, I think it's a huge strategic mistake. But isn't the whole issue sort of that trans sensibility is sort of part of this spectrum of human sexuality? So that, you know, Dolly Parton obviously normalized certain bulges she had. And, you know, Sylvester Stallone normalized other bulges. This is this woman's experience of her sexuality, that she can be a woman while she still has a bulge. And she is saying, I'm not going to strap it down and make it go away. This is who I am. Listen, that's up to her. It's free country. Right. But I'm saying as the face of a political movement this is not it's a huge strategic mistake because

as I said I think it's perfectly valid to say listen okay before I jump to conclusion here how would I react if this was not a trans person I'd say well if it was a dude I'd say do what you want but you know I'm not going to tell you more power to you and if you want to come read

to my kids I'm not going to say oh that's awesome make. And if you want to come read to my kids, I'm not going to say, oh, that's awesome. Make sure that penis of yours is really showing. I'd be like, it's vulgar. I don't have to rewrite my whole concepts of what's vulgarity. I'm old enough to remember that Tom Jones made a lot of money because his pants showed his anatomy in ways that at the time were incredibly salacious. It is salacious.

I remember they would talk about that. It is salacious. I think there's quite a bit of hypocrisy and a double standard here because American pop culture historically, before trans people were so front and center, are sexualizing and celebrating all sorts of breasts and naked women and everyone from Dolly Parton as the first to Pamela Anderson and all I mean you see it everywhere Bo Derek so it's like suddenly when trans people hold on on a second. First of all, let's not mix show business performers

with everyday people. If Tom Jones... What you're telling me is that if I see a dude with his prominent phallus, you know, bald-ass pants, can I say, that's gross? I don't want to see your penis? Or does that make me anti-trans? Yeah, but would you...

I mean, would you have the same... Oh, you're talking about, I thought we were talking about penises in general, not a trans woman. That's what I'm saying. They'll say like, how could you possibly, you're anti-trans.

You don't want to see a woman. It's gross. You don't want to see any bulge, but be it Tom Jones or Dylan Mulvaney. And I don't want to be told that if, not me,

middle America says, you know what, that these have been kind of a sensibility we've always had. We're not rewriting them to be trans, but don't tell me because we're just maintaining our sensibilities that now we become anti-trans because we weren't

even thinking about trans when we have a culture which says, you know, you should be a little modest about your genitals. By the way, I mean, men, it's new fabric. I don't know when they invented that fabric, but women are walking around now displaying themselves. Normalize the camel toe.

Yeah, normalize the camel toe. And if you don't want to normalize the camel toe, you hate women. That's what they're saying. I just don't know. I don't want to normalize the camel toe. I'm looking. I just Googled Dylan Mulvaney. I'm not really familiar with her, but she looks a bit like Jenny Slade.

Can we play that video, the normalize a bit like Jenny Slade, I find. You want to play? Can we play that video, the Normalize the Bulge video? Yeah, one sec. Yeah, she'll bring it up. Have you seen it? Have you seen it? You'll watch it. I think that this idea of middle America and modesty

is not really true, though. And I also think that Dylan Mulvaney and this idea of Normalize the Bulge is really in reaction to this idea that in order to be a quote unquote real woman, we have to that trans women have to have bottom surgery and this obsession with trans people and their genitals. No, no, no. You might not care. You might not care. But that is the entire rhetoric that has been surrounded.

I've never heard anybody say that, that anybody has to have bottom surgery. Come on, put it up. Well, I'm telling you. Did you find it, Nicole? Yeah, one second. Yeah. And that is true.

And if you go back and you research it a little bit, you'll find that that's true, that the first thing they're asked about is their genitals. Well, I'm going to say something else, maybe while Nicole finds it. Listen, there's a tremendous amount of gossip that goes into this. This schoolyard thing that I said before,

the way I found out about my friend, I don't want to say her name, becoming trans, and I knew she had been acting different for many years already he had been acting different for many many years and then a gay bartender working at the underground at the time my friend was living a double life

and the gay bartender working at the underground found my friend on some sort of cyber site where people were... Grindr or something like that. Something like that. And the gay bartender takes a screenshot and sends it to everybody on the staff.

This is how I found out about her being trans. At that time, I was living double life. So I confronted the bartender. I said, why did you do this? She's obviously trying to keep this personal. This is my dear friend. She didn't want me to know. You're outing her.

And the bartender says, don't you tell me, as a gay man, I resent you telling me. And I said, don't give me that bullshit. I know what you did. This was gossipy and – what's the word for – and it's interesting in a prurient way. Anyway, it was hot news and you couldn't wait to tell everybody. And now you're going to hide behind the fact that you're gay. This is their co-LGBTQ thing. But the fact is that all of this was trumped by being a bully.

And on all sides of all political issues, people... But it also seems like, I mean, that's amazing that a gay man would do that. Horribly amazing. But it seems like there's sort of an anxiety just as this thing with Bud Light seems to be macho-y men being anxious about gay

women and needing to establish their masculinity. There's almost in that bartender's situation, he was somehow his sexuality was challenged in a negative way by a gay... That's the therapist. He wasn't challenged.

It was good gossip. And this is... Juicy was the word I think you were looking for. Juicy gossip. And this is a... And listen... To do harm. It was gossip to do harm, too. A lot of gossip does harm. And

I'm just saying that this is a fundamental part of human nature, and people love being bullies. And if they can somehow dress up their bullying in righteousness, then they're crueler even still. And a woman or a man who dresses in the opposite sex or whatever, this is ground zero for bringing out our bullying-type urges. A Perry Owls raising her hand. There's no kid that gets picked on worse in grammar school than the very effeminate boy.

And it's not taught. This is something deep, ugly within human nature. That's horrible. And I think that, so again, I think that a lot of the people who are anti-trans, even where they're correct on certain issues, they might be, they're fucking bullies. And it disturbs me. Go ahead. I think that that's well said. I want to tell you that there really is a history here about people being obsessed with transgender women and men and their genitals. And the thing that I was thinking of was Laverne Cox.

Do you know who she is? Yeah, everybody wanted to know her given name. Laverne Cox is the trans actress from Orange is the New Black. And she, in 2014, there was this famous interview with Katie Couric. And she kept asking her about her genitals. And this really is. But that was a different time. Back then.

No, but this is what Dylan Mulvaney is. Hold on. I want to tell you something. Back then, we didn't realize. We thought that if you didn't have the surgery, you were a transvestite. Who's we? I never thought that. Maybe you knew, but it was much later that I realized that

it was that you could be a trans person, but the surgery wasn't even part of it. In those days, we assumed that if you were trans, either you're going to have the surgery or have had the surgery. So it was very, like, did Bruce Jenner have it? Did Bruce Jenner not have it? Caitlyn Jenner, whatever it is. I think now we've all learned that

this is not an essential part of being trans. We've been educated. And now I almost never hear it. As a matter of fact, I think we all kind of assume most people have not had the surgery at this point. I don't know that that's true. I think that as long as you— Can you play the video?

This was the video which I think launched her to kind of fame. Go ahead. Round of applause for the makeup. And I wore this outfit shopping today. And I thought that these might be my new shopping shorts, but I was walking around and everyone was staring and I was like, oh, okay, what's going on? And they were all staring directly at my crotch. And I went, oh, I forgot that my crotch doesn't look like other women's crotches sometimes because mine doesn't look like a little Barbie pocket and I thought okay Dylan you have some options here

number one you can stop wearing clothes that fit like this and and just find looser fitting items number two I can do a tuck which is gonna have to be a whole other video but it's very painful and involved about or number three I just normalize it and i wear clothes like this and we all just normalize women having bulges sometimes because we're coming up on bikini season baby and you might see a bulge or two so normalize the bulge we are normalizing the bulge women can have bulges and that's okay we're not gonna stare at their crotches while they're Well, Jenny Slate sings better. Here's my commentary, if you're interested.

Yes, of course. What she's saying, in my estimation, is that a trans woman has the right to wear what she would like to wear. Sometimes women want to wear bicycle shorts, or maybe it's bikini season, and she should be afforded that right, and we should get used to seeing bulges, and it shouldn't faze us. I see nothing wrong with it. I completely disagree with your assessment of the situation. I don't think she's saying that a bulge

is the face of the trans woman. I think she's saying, maybe she wants to wear a pair of bicycle shorts. It's her right to do so and it's her right to not tuck it in. Of course it's her right to do it if she wants. And people should get used to it and they should because people are going to be seeing it more and more.

What I said was, well, I don't know if they should. She shouldn't be forced to wear clothing that she doesn't wish to wear. If she wants to wear bicycle shorts, that's her... Okay, but if you were wearing skin-tight clothing...

Listen, it's another issue. Everybody can dress however they want. Right, I think that's what you're saying. What I'm saying is that there's a deep civil rights issue here about trans acceptance, about them being able to be seen as ordinary everyday people going to work, having families, coming over to your house for coffee, in every

way interacting as everyone else does in society. This is the great accomplishment of the gay rights movement. People who lead civil rights movements speak powerfully and eloquently and move people with the depth and the righteousness of their cause. For Dylan Mulvaney and these types of videos to be the most prominent thing that I've seen in terms of trans people fighting for their rights,

I'm using the phrase I use, this seems to me to be a strategic mistake. Okay. If the, if the goal is to have a change in attitude about trans, the way we have seen a change in attitude about gay, this, in my opinion,

will not accomplish it. That's what I'm saying. Your assumption is that this is, and you may well be right and I don't know, but your assumption is that this is the video that is the face of the trans movement. She's the face that keeps popping up. She's the one who met with Joe Biden. I mean, you'd have like Martin Luther King meeting with John F. Kennedy and Dylan Mulvaney meets with Joe Biden.

Is there no other trans person that is the voice of the movement? And then on the Budweiser can is Dylan Mulvaney. You have to know me. I couldn't give a shit about her bulge. I think women with bulges is going to be an issue

for the trans movement. The fact that she's putting it out there that this is going to be part of what America is going to have to deal with as the trans movement becomes normalized, I didn't think about it until this. I guess what Noam is asking is

is there a Martin Luther King or a Harvey Milk of the trans movement? Listen, I showed this video to There's a few. I showed this video to somebody we all know, a trans person we all know. And she was horrified by it. She says, that does not speak for me.

Because I'm putting some words in her mouth. What she would like to be seen is what I'm saying. She would say, I go to work. Yeah, but there were also gay... I mean, there were people in the gay movement that put themselves out there that gay people were saying, I wouldn't behave that way. I would never speak that way. So to make change, you've got to be offensive in a certain way.

It didn't work, but that's exactly my point. All the offensiveness or even outlandishness. What about Caitlyn Jenner as a more genteel spokesperson? But she's been cast, there's a lot of backlash against her now because they don't like her, they don't like her politics. Yeah, for good reason too. A lot of trans people. Huge mistake.

Point is, point is that she was a very, she was the kind of person to say, sure, I don't care if she's my next door neighbor.

She seems like, she seems just like me. But why does it have to, why is it that trans people have a responsibility to. You know what the word strategic means? Yes, I do.

Then why don't you stop changing what I said? They have no response. They can do whatever they want. I'm talking about a strategy to gain what you want to gain. She's saying they need an MLK. It's upsetting because I don't know if it's... I'm trying... You purposely, or maybe not purposely,

literally take what I say and twist it into something else and respond to something I didn't say. I did not say the things you're answering. What am I twisting your words? I hear what Noam is saying. Noam is saying that Dillamovani has every right to wear the shorts she wants and every right to normalize the bulge.

Noam is saying the trans movement, in order to win hearts and minds, he doesn't feel that's going to win hearts and minds. He feels they need a Martin Luther King, a Harvey Milk, some Harvey Milk was obnoxious. I don't know anything about it. I don't know anything about Harvey Milk.

But a Caitlyn Jenner, God forbid she's a Republican, but a Caitlyn Jenner, a person who, like I say, who illuminates to us, oh my God, I've been a bigot all the time. She's just like me.

Why did I care so much about what she did or who she was with or what bathroom or whether she's with my kids, that's a big one, or whether she's my kid's teacher. Would I want Dylan Mulvaney as my kid's teacher? No. I don't want my school, my kid's teacher, normalizing the bulge.

I don't want that. I don't want her to, I want' teacher normalizing the bulge. I don't want that. I want Caitlyn Jenner as my kids' teacher, teaching my kids it actually doesn't matter that she's trans. But it's as unimportant as her hair color. It doesn't matter that she's trans. Perhaps somebody will come along to do that. I do think, however, hearts and minds are being, I think America is a lot more trans-tolerant than it was 20 years ago, a lot more knowledgeable, you know, a lot less prejudice.

So progress is being made. Absolutely. You're saying that strategically it's important to have somebody that people can relate to in. I'm saying that people are modest about sexual things. Yes, Tom Jones did that. Tom Jones was quite controversial for doing that. And Mick Jagger did it too.

But now, what's always been controversial, people are not reacting to anything that they didn't always react to, that they didn't always find controversial. And now they're being told, oh, if you have a problem with that, you hate trans people. Like, what are you talking about? I always felt that people should have a little class about how they present themselves in public, how they handle their genitals.

I know it goes on and it's as for a law against it, but now you're telling me that if I continue to feel as I've always felt now, I hate trans people. Go fuck yourself. That's their attitude. Go fuck yourself. Fine. I hate trans people. Next kid. That's their attitude. And I think it's, it's, it's their attitude. Go fuck yourself. Fine. I hate trans people. Next. That's their attitude. And I think it's it's it's a mistake. Like, did Joe Biden really need to invite of all the trans people out there? He invites the ones of the White House who's normalizing the bulge. If I were trans, I'd be horrified. I hear what you're saying.

Isn't there a beautiful essay writer who spoke about the trans experience in a way which could could make us all deeply empathize with what it's like shouldn't amaya angelo's like shouldn't that none of this of course is the fault of dylan mulvaney no no it's it's our it's our uh fear of saying the wrong thing or or showing any judgment whatsoever we all feel like if we're to say anything critical of anybody from that movement, we're going to be called a bigot. But the Republicans, for their part, I mean, I'm not sure if Trump had Kid Rock at the White House, but he pretty much should have. I mean, there's that connection. I started by saying they're bullies and they hate trans people. Right. So it's on both sides, the extremeness. I hear you.

I said it from the first thing I said was those people who are saying some of the things I was, they hate trans people. I don't want to be associated with them. Yeah. I don't want to be associated because they're fucking bullies. They are. No question about it. Anyway, can we wrap this up?

Yeah, yeah. Because we do have a bonus episode. And I got to call my wife. Speaking of trans. Thank you for, Larry Terlovsky, I don't know if he's taking on new patients. No, no, no, no I just was This was actually

I sent Noam an email And I'm a great fan of The Cellar And comedy in general And seen you perform Seen you perform Well, you haven't seen Perrielle perform at The Cellar I saw her at Stand Up New York Okay, okay

Well, thank you for coming, Larry. And continued success. Can you get me some Adderall? I probably could. I think it's a triple script kind of thing. It's very important. Anyways, what do you think about giving ADD medicine to kids? That's a whole other can of worms.

No, it is. I mean, the amount of psychotropic meds that kids take now compared to 20 years ago is astounding. 30 years ago. Anyway, Perry L. Ashenbrand, our producer,

thank you. Noam Dorman, call your wife. And Cole Lyons, the wizard behind the scenes. Thank you so much, everybody. Podcast at ComedySally.com for comments, questions, suggestions,

constructive criticism. Bye-bye.