The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Dr. Orna Guralnik

Episode Date: August 4, 2023

Noam Dworman and Dan Naturman sit down with world-renowned Clinical Psychologist and Psychoanalyst, Dr. Orna Guralnik. She is on faculty at NYU, co-founder of the Center for the Study of Dissociation and Depersonalization at the Mount Sinai Medical School and is featured on Showtime’s documentary series, Couples Therapy. Special guest Juanita Dworman.

This is Live from the Table, the official podcast of the world-famous comedy cellar coming at you on Sirius XM 99 Raw Dog and wherever podcasts are available. Dan Natterman here, along with Noam Dwarman, owner of the world-famous, ever-expanding comedy cellar, along with his wife, Juanita Dwarman. Hello, Juanita. Hi, thanks for having me. She's the first time she's been on the show in person. I think we've had her on...

You've never been on the show before? Well, in person. Lucy's never been on the show? No, I think we've had her on. You've never been on the show before? Well, in person. Lucy's never been on the show? No, I think I was here once before. Maybe so. Perrielle's not here. I'm not sure where she is, but she's not here. We have a marriage counselor coming a little bit later to discuss Noam and Juanita's marriage.

As we started the show, Dan was making me an offer to buy us out. Like Mo Green. Don't buy me out. I buy you out. Noam was complaining about all the emails he's getting. And he said, leave me alone, world. And I said, are these business emails? And he said, yes.

And I said, well, sell the comedy seller. And you won't have any more business emails. So he said, make me an offer. So I don't have any money to offer. But hypothetically, I offered you $15 million. Juanita, do you want to take it for $15 million? No. What does that mean, $15 million?

Well, plus, does it mean the real estate? Yeah. You can still own the real estate. But if you want me to buy the real estate, I'll pay you fair market value for the real estate that you own that's associated with the comedy seller. So I guess that would be $7 million for the McDonald's. That was in the New York Post, so it's not...

7.3. And whatever this building is worth. Plus $15 million on top. Why would you think that the McDonald's is still worth 7.3? How do you know it hasn't appreciated? Well, I don't know. I'm just throwing it out there. Whatever the fair market value is, as determined by whoever determines these things.

It's worth whatever someone will pay. Plus, okay, well, but you can get it appraised. Okay, okay, okay, fair enough. So, plus $15 million just for the business, the comedy seller business. You can stay on for six months to teach me how to do it. It is not enough. So, let me see. So, as you're talking about like 22, maybe plus maybe $30 million,

and then why don't you probably take half plus child support? That's why it's not enough. After taxes, it's not enough. After taxes, after they take all the money from you, it's not enough. But you dangle that kind of money in front of her. That says she's going to go. Her and Jamal will be gone somewhere in the South Pacific. Why do you always say Jamal?

I don't know. That's how I picture. Well, I mean. After 30 years of a white guy? I don't know. That's how I picture. Well, I mean, I think... After 30 years of a white guy, you're going black. That's what I assume. Well, we can talk about that with... Every guy, every color of the rainbow.

We'll certainly talk about that with the marriage counselor, whether Juanita should, you know, there's something missing from her life because she's getting a small white penis, but... LAUGHTER Were you taking the offer or no? No.

No, no, no. How about the real estate plus $30 million? No, the thing is, I need something like... That maybe. Look, on the one hand, as our friend told us recently, a lot of people are reluctant to leave. We should ask Orna about this. A lot of people are reluctant to leave their kids with advantages

because it's not good for them in a certain way. Oh, yeah. Someone just said that to us. Warren Buffett wants to leave small amounts of money to his kids. And I get that. On the other hand, being your own boss, it's a very, very nice lifestyle. And would I want to foreclose that option to one of my kids should they want that?

I took it and I put my own stamp on things. I grew it. I did stuff with it. I shaped it. So it's not limiting them. They can take it and run with it or they can take it and fuck it up, which is usually what happens when kids take over. Your scenario is very different than our kids' scenario.

Okay. Our kids are going to fuck it up. Yeah. You built a business from scratch. I built a few businesses from scratch. So now you're giving them something that's already top tier. I didn't build a comedy store from scratch. No. You improved it.

As to whether it could be further improved, you know, you've improved it. It's arguable. You've maxed it out, given, you know. There's always other things can be done with a name.

You can go into the movies. You can go into management. You can go, you can write, you can do all kinds of stuff with a brand like that. You can, you can, right. Okay. License it out, you know, franchise it.

Who knows? Who knows? Okay, so that's a consideration is leaving it to the kids is a big consideration for you. Yeah, yeah. Or they can sell it to you, Dan. Well, if I had the kind of money to buy it, I wouldn't because I'd have that kind of money. If you owned the Comedy Cellar, would you MC the shows every night? If you bequeathed me the Comedy Cellar?

No, I wouldn't MC. I don't like MCing. What's the name? I would work here, but I don't like MCing. I never liked MCing. I did it about 10 years ago. I wanted some extra money, so I asked Estee to MC if I could MC. And very quickly, as soon as I didn't need it anymore, I'm it, like about 10 years ago, I wanted some extra money, so I asked Estee to emcee, if I could emcee. And very quickly, as soon as I didn't need it anymore, I'm like, nah, I seize no more of this shit.

So that guy who I liked very much, but he's ghosted me since, and he disappeared, James Altucher. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He moved to Florida. He moved to Florida. Doesn't mean he can't answer his email. He had bought Stand Up New York. He bought a, yeah, part of it. And he was performing there regularly.

Well, that's why he bought it. To the chagrin of a lot of the comics. Like doing a set or like doing his own show? I don't know. Was he headlining? And Cary Hoffman also owned Stand-Up New York.

Yeah, he was MCing. Oh, was he? Oh, really? For a while, yeah.

That must have been earlier on. And Rodney Dangerfield, of course. Well, no, I wouldn't be there if I owned a comedy cellar. I would just do sets, you know.

I'd probably sell the comedy cellar if I owned the... If you bequeathed me the comedy cellar, the first thing I would probably do is unload it. Now, the next question. Let's say I decided, you know what? I'm funny. I'm going to start emceeing some shows at the cellar. What would the ripple

be through the... There would be a hue and a cry. The comedians would just abuse me. Oh, my God. Yeah, I mean, I suppose if you actually stepped up to the plate and were killing, they would have nothing to say about it. I mean, some might be so infuriated that a non-comedian all of a sudden was good at it that they would hate you even more.

Bingo. Because when John Mayer used to come down, the comedians were fit to be tied, and the truth was he was very good. But I wasn't getting this. Some of them were upset, and others were... I mean, my take on it is, whether he's good

or he's not good, the audience is happy to see him. And that was my take. First of all, that annoys comedians too. Like, Chris Tucker came down. There's a famous story where Chris Tucker came down and he wasn't doing well. And that was my take. First of all, that annoys comedians too. Like, Chris Tucker came down. There's a famous story where Chris Tucker came down and he wasn't doing well. And James Smith threw a hissy fit. And I said, James, and this is during Rush Hour,

I said, I'm not going to tell the biggest comic movie star in the world that he can't do a set. He goes, I'll tell him. You know, my feeling is that if it's good for the comedy seller, it's indirectly good for me, albeit

you know, not as good as it is for you, but I don't mind. Even if John Mayer sucked, the audience wants to see John Mayer for five, ten minutes. But the important point is that he didn't suck. He was actually quite good.

And the comedians couldn't bear to admit it. Well, maybe they could. I think you exaggerate the extent to which comedians are petty. I'm petty. But, you know, I talk to comedians and I'm not hearing the kind of pettiness, as I described it, that you're

describing. If he's killing, most comedians will acknowledge somebody the kind of pettiness, as I described it, that you're describing? No. If he's killing, most comedians will acknowledge somebody that's killing. I said in an interview that the comedians don't like to laugh when civilians tell jokes, but maybe it's just because I'm not funny. Well, or you're not their style. Can we quickly, before we...

No, to be fair, I was making a joke, but I've been there at the table when somebody was sitting there, whoever it might be, who said something funny. And I would laugh heartily because it was funny. And I have confidence that if I laughed heartily, it was funny. And you'd see maybe one comedian, whoever it was, like a good natured comedian, would laugh along. But there would always be a few comedians who would keep a stiff upper lip because it bugged them to laugh. Well, maybe, maybe, maybe.

And then they laugh almost like that fake, you know, they pat their... That's something another comedian says that also isn't even that funny. Anyway, yeah. I did want to talk briefly. We mentioned this last week when we had Todd Barry on. You weren't here. I think you're celebrating your birthday. Was that correct?

Or that was two weeks ago? Was it coming up? No, I just had it. I think you're celebrating your birthday. Was that correct? Or that was two weeks ago? Was it coming up? No, I just had it. I'm 61. July 17th. How's that hit you? Is it worse than 60? No, 60 was worse.

60 is... 60, I'm told, is a... Colin described it as a surreal experience to turn 60. Colin Quinn. Yeah. It's weird to be 60. I feel... I don't feel 60. Right, but you know it. You know that it's

true. My wife reminds me of it. I mean, 50, 50 was for me, was, you know, it was a biggie, but I think 60 is, you know, logarithmically it's like the Richter scale, you know. I mean, an 8 is bad, 9 is... Gnome is so healthy.

Decibels are the same thing. It's ridiculous. But, like, he plays basketball with the kids, he's running around all the time, and that worries me. Sometimes I'm like, maybe you shouldn't be doing that because you're 60. I can still have sex? No, he should be exercising.

You still got it. He should be. Any doctor will tell you, you should never just say, well, I'm too old to do this and not do it. Right, right. Do whatever you're capable of doing. I mean, if the doctor says your arteries

are clogged or whatever, then that's I don't know. Sometimes I'm sitting in my yard and I go, oh my god, that's my man up there. He's 60. He shouldn't be doing that. And sometimes I see Juanita in the yard and I'm like, oh my god, that's my wife. She's 51. No, I'm not 51. I'll be 50. She's 49. No, I'm not 51. I'll be 50.

She's 49. I'll be 50. I'll be 49. I'll be 50 this year. She's going to be 50 years old. I've said before, my father, I don't think he ever slept with a woman over 40. I'm not kidding. You've matured.

Even toward the end of his life? Even toward the end of his life. And Ava was under 40? No, she was in her early 40s when he passed. I don't know if he was still sleeping. No, I guess so, yeah. But that wasn't his style.

I did want to discuss briefly, we mentioned as I said last week. I mean Ava, I mean fully mature women. Well, should we talk about Montreal? Did anything interesting happen? You went to the festival in Montreal. So if nothing interesting happened there, we'll talk about the Regal movie theater thing. If something is interesting about Montreal, did anything interesting happen? You went to the festival in Montreal. So if nothing interesting happened there, we'll talk about the Regal movie theater thing.

If something is interesting about Montreal, then, you know. Well, Montreal was interesting because I saw a lot of mezzanines and we were trying to build a mezzanine in a new club. They went to four shows, I think. I went to three of them. Apparently the three I went to bombed and they saw one that was good. Was your purpose to go there to scope talent, or just because you wanted to go to Montreal?

None. Juanita wanted to go to Montreal. Esty, I think. Esty wanted to go. And remember that the IRS is listening, so if you plan on deducting this trip, you better come up with a business rationale. Well, yes.

It is business. It just doesn't mean I wanted to do it. Well, Esty wanted to scope some new people. All we did was saw shows and scope talent. And apparently we saw some people. But I would have preferred not to have done it. The kids had a great time. Did you find people that you're going to use here or in Vegas?

A few. I mean, people ask me, why is Noam in Montreal? And I said, well, I don't know. Who asked you that? I forgot somebody asked me and I said Trump uses that device as well I remember saying to somebody I don't know but I know that

Noam has this thing where he if he doesn't use somebody that later becomes famous he kicks himself he wants to know if there's somebody he's not using. He asks that question all the time. Is there somebody I'm not using? It's worse than that.

There's a few people. Not me. It was not me. There's a few people who've been passed on. Not passed, but passed over. You mean ignored. Not used. Not used.

Not used. Who became very big. And they don't come here as a result? And sometimes I have, like, shudders, you know, in the middle of the night about it, because it bothers me so much. Nobody bats a thousand, but do you think that... I don't know that. Do you think they're not coming here because they hold a grudge that you didn't use them at the time? Does that seem to be a thing?

Well, I don't know how you want to put that. That could be the case, or it could also simply be... Are these people not coming here? Yeah, they don't come here. It could be the case that they're holding a grudge, or it could simply be the case that... They don't know how you want to put that. That could be the case. Or it could also simply be... Are these people not coming here? Yeah, they don't come here. It could be the case that they're holding a grudge or it could simply be the case that... They don't live here. They don't have any sentimental attachment here,

so why would they come here? I know that when Chappelle comes to town, he likes to come here, I'm assuming, because it reminds him of happy times. But objectively speaking, to work out new material, it's a good place to come for them because you always get a big audience. You don't want to work out jokes in front of five

people, although you can if they're listening and attentive and good. But also a bigger act, a name act, I don't think wants to go up in front of five people because it just doesn't look right. Like, you're a major name. To go up in front of five people kind of is, I think,

affects the brand. So this is an objectively good place to work out material. So if somebody's not coming here, I think we can presume that, I mean, it might be just a little more than not having a sentimental attachment. Yeah, it could be. So, for instance, Nate Bargatze, and he performed here from time to time, I think,

but Steve Fabrikant was always, Nate Bargatze, and he performed here from time to time, I think, but Steve Fabrikant was always pushing Nate Bargatze. I know you've mentioned him before, yeah. Mentioned Nate in this context. And I wasn't really on top of things at that point. And I don't know what went wrong with that. But clearly... So you saw... You saw him and you weren't blown away?

No, I didn't see him. You didn't see him at all? Somehow the decision was made. He was never not performing here. He just wasn't... He was underutilized and Steve was always saying, you should be using more,

you should be using more. Now, I don't know that anybody... Nobody ever told me we shouldn't. I don't know what was going on. That's the problem. I think sometimes... Well, he doesn't... He lives in, I think, Nashville or something,

so he's not even here so much. But anyway, he became huge. And we were not using him. Or not using him like we should have been. So I don't know what happened with that. There is some story also with Jim Gaffigan. He does come here from time to time, but something happened with Gaffigan years ago.

I don't know. It was before my father was still alive, so I don't even know. So the Comedy Cellar is doing a simulcast, if that's the right word, at the Regal Movie Theater chain. They're at 48 theaters. 48 theaters along the East Coast.

I think it's standing all the way west to Texas. August 5th, I think it is. August 5th, this coming Saturday. So there's going to be a show at, I guess, the East Coast. I think it's standing all the way west to Texas. August 5th, I think it is. August 5th. This coming Saturday. So there's going to be a show at, I guess, the Village Underground, I assume, because that's the best place to film shit. Yeah. And it'll be simulcast, again, if that's the word. Broadcast, simulcast. At these theaters, so

the people can go to the theater, get their popcorns, you know, sit in the seat and watch. Make out. And watch stand-up comedy on a movie screen. stand-up comedy on a movie screen. Stand-up comedy on a movie screen. I mean, I saw Eddie Murphy Raw on the movie screen, but it was Eddie Murphy. So the question is, will this work?

And is there, no, I mean, ticket sales is, you know, are they robust or? Ticket sales are not bad, actually. Ticket sales are exceeding what I thought. But I don't know how to judge it because uh as i said to bill the guy you know who's involved in this with me in my whole life i've never or been or accompanied anybody who purchased a ticket for a movie before the day of the movie i just don't it's just yeah yeah right precisely the case yes so i'm assuming

this is a little bit different, maybe, arguably, or maybe not. No, I don't think so. I think that the opening of a Star Wars movie, you might buy in advance because you know it's going to be sold out. Right. This is the kind of thing you decide at the last minute.

You might even be... And then there's two ways to look at it also. So this is an unusual period because we have two blockbuster movies out there, the Oppenheimer movie and the Barbie movie, which hasn't been any blockbuster movies in a long time. So the question is, is that going to suck

the audience away from us? That seems most likely. Or will people be sold out for these shows so they'll end up going and buying a ticket for the seller? Because often you go see movies because everything else is sold out. Also, arguably, I don't know, maybe gets people into

a movie-going frame of mind. It just puts it out there that it's still a thing to go to the movie theater. So we're having all kinds of internal political problems. The sound wasn't right at the test thing.

I wanted a Dolby 5.1. They're having trouble getting that done for me. There was an article in Vulture Magazine today which made it sound different than it was. There's always shit. There's always shit for these things. I should handle everything myself. Assuming you want to.

No, I don't want to. That's the problem. And Mint Comedy is involved as well. They do the... Every week, I guess't want to. That's the problem. And Mint Comedy is involved as well. They do the, every week I guess they do. So Mint Comedy is the company that was started initially by Mustafa, who is Chappelle's manager. And they've been doing, as a partner, Arnold is my friend. And they've been doing weekly shows, streaming. So we brought them in because they have a whole infrastructure for streaming now.

So I brought them into this idea to take care of the streaming end. So whose idea was this initially? This was Bill Grunfest's idea, who was the guy who founded the Comedy Cellar. And I didn't have much faith in the idea at first until I saw the first test. The first test of the movies was fantastic. It just looks really good. It looked good. It sounded good, everything. The last test I saw, was it yesterday, the day before of the movies was fantastic. It just looks really good. It looked good. It sounded good. The last test I saw,

was it yesterday or the day before yesterday? Yesterday. That wasn't so good, so we had to do it again on Thursday night to fix it again. Well, I mean, so you're optimistic, pessimistic, or you just wait and see? I think Orna is here. I'm pessimistic. Okay.

That's sort of your nature anyway. No, it's not my nature. My nature is. I'm pessimistic. Okay. I mean, that's sort of your nature anyway. No. Yes, it is. No, it's not my nature. Okay. My nature is not to be pessimistic. So you're optimistic about the McDonald's? Yes.

My nature is to be realistic. Mm-hmm. Which might be... Well, Perrielle always gives me shit because she accuses me of pessimism. No, because you're depressive. But we'll ask Orna about shit. We're not in the movie business, you know, so we don't really know what's going to happen.

Well, the big question is, and it's a question I can't answer, is are people going to want to watch stand-up on screen? My only experience with it is having seen Eddie Murphy raw in 19... Whenever the fuck it was. But this is different, right? It's broadcast live, so you don't know what's going to happen. Anything can happen. Anything can happen.

This is live, but it's not Eddie Murphy, so... Now, if you don't speak English, you can't hear that bit. All you hear is shit, ass, shit, shit. See, I got a lot of foreigners that come over. I got a lot of people from other countries that have seen my films that come over to the United States, because New York is like a tourist place, and they get HBO, and they catch Delirious,

and they can't speak English, and try to do my act on the street, and all they got is the curses. I got foreigners from all over the world walking up going, Eddie Murphy! Fuck you! Fuck you, Eddie! I know you!

I see you on television! You're the fuck you man, right? I love it! Suck my dick huh Suck it You black motherfucker I love it Oh

Doggy Dog we got what looks to be a Husky I guess Siberian Husky Gorgeous dog hello Orna Hi I'll just give you a brief intro while you're settling in I guess. Siberian Husky. Beautiful dog. Gorgeous dog. Hello, Orna. Hi. I'll just give you a brief intro while you're settling in.

Is that an authorized therapy dog? That sounds like a racket to me. A therapist gets the... She's an authorized good person. She's an authorized everything. Dr. Orna Goralnik, the world-renowned... You have to get them trained, you know. A friend of ours just went through that. Clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst on the faculty at New York University

my fake alma mater when I on stage when I talk about my alma mater I say NYU but it's not true it's UPenn

I say NYU because I think UPenn sounds arrogant oh god just be yourself be myself there's nothing in my act that's myself

everything in my act is a fraud it sounded a little arrogant just now when you had to slip it in. I have to say. Okay, okay. If you say so. Although, NYU just sounds like

a state school. It's not a state school. I know, but it sounds like one. I guess so does UPenn. But anyway, she's featured on Showtime's documentary series. Now, if you went to Harvard, would you think you wouldn't say Harvard? I would. If people say, where did you go to school? I would say Harvard.

A lot of people say, I went to school in Cambridge. That sounds even more ridiculous. You just come out and say Harvard. Harrison Greenbaum shoehorns Harvard into every conversation. I wouldn't shoehorn it in, but if somebody asked me point blank, I would say Harvard. Where did you

go to school, Lorna? Many schools. I spent half my life in schools. You have to talk about that. Well, anyway. You spent half your life in schools? Yeah. But my last school was indeed NYU Postdoc.

NYU Postdoctoral Program in Psychoanalysis. Ten years there. Those were my last ten years. Are you friends with Jonathan? Are you? Jonathan Haidt? Who's? I'm sorry. One at a time.

Jonathan Haidt? No. When in doubt, answer Noam's questions. No. No, okay. He's the boss. No. He's the boss.

I said I detected a slight accent. Am I incorrect in that? Israel. Oh, Israel. I spent a slight accent. Am I incorrect in that? Israel. Oh, Israel. I spent a formative year in Israel. Years. Okay, yeah. It's very slight, very subtle.

Did you serve in the military? Yes. We had on... We'd like to talk about the judicial override, if you don't mind. Let's do. No, no. Let's do. Oh, yeah?

Yeah, sure. Well, I mean, we have enough to talk about here. Noam and Juanita are a married couple. Climate and the judicial overall. I thought that's what we're here for. Well, there is action angle. So we'll let Dan start. But I heard you.

We were listening to you on the radio, on a podcast on the way in. And you were talking about how politics bears on people's, you didn't use the word problems, that's my layman's word, it bears on a psychology, on the things they react to, how they react to things, whatever it is. And I had written an email to somebody not long ago that underneath all this hullabaloo about the judicial override is a psychological dynamic of the people on one side who feel that they're constantly dismissed and looked down upon, treated like deplorables, kind of, you know, and the elites. And this is kind of fueling a lot of this stuff, although everybody talks about it in intellectual terms. You have an aggrieved, resentful population and an elite population that doesn't want to say it out loud, but to some extent look down on these people and won't permit themselves to say it.

So do you want to start with that? Well, you know, given that... What else is there to talk about? I brought my wife here. She's usually home washing dishes. I don't think that... We should talk about that too. I don't think...

She likes it, she says. I don't think that the average listener would be quite as interested in Israeli politics as they are in marital advice. Okay, so. But it is kind of, there is some parallel thinking. Perhaps so, but why don't we focus on. Well, go ahead, say what you want to say. Can I just say, this is a provocation, I can't not.

Yes, of course, say. But it is also a mindset that is then inducted into people, which is to think that way, to think into like elite versus deplorables. It's a particular kind of mindset that the same people, let's say in a different marital situation, would think differently. I agree with you. It is a mindset, but it's the political mindset of much of the Western world right now. Right. It touches on Brexit. It touches on a lot of much of the Western world right now. It's not – it touches on Brexit. It touches on a lot of things. Which brings us to climate.

Well, it's funny you should mention climate. Just – we don't have to discuss it. But I went head-to-head with Dave Smith, who's a comic. He calls himself libertarian. I'm not exactly sure what that means because it seems to mean different things to different people. But I got in – he quote-t quote tweeted me, which is a nasty move, because that sicks all his followers on me. And I'm, I, I, I, I.

Were you saying that climate change was a hoax or something? No, I said it was, I said it was real, and his people think it's a hoax. Ah. And so I got, you know, I got a lot of people coming at me. But we can, if you wish to discuss that after we get through with you and Juanita, we can do so. We're in desperate need of therapy here.

Well, I mean, that's why she's here, I thought. Okay. Okay. So you have some questions you want to start with? Because I excerpted some stuff that I've read of hers that I wanted to. No, I think we should talk about marital bliss and is it achievable? Well, my wife and I have been together for, I don't know

how many years? 29 years. And we met, she was a waitress here. Here. And I was the owner. I was 30, she was 19. Is that right? Yeah.

And I harassed her mercilessly and chased her around. She was pregnant. But I won her heart. And we were married. And I would say, although we fight, you know, she's volatile and she puts me down a lot and she's impatient. But I think we've had a happy 30 years, right, for the most part? What? Well, tell her.

Have we not had a happy 30 years? No. We're still together. We're still together, yes. Do you want to leave me? No, I don't want to leave you. That's for the children at this point. How come you don't want to leave me? Because I love you. Okay. But we've had a lot of bad times, yes. Do you want to leave me? No, I don't want to leave you. That's for the children at this point. How come you don't want to leave me? Because I love you.

Okay. But we've had a lot of bad times, too. Well, yeah, we had some bad times. You chased her down, you're saying? Yeah. Because there's a school of thought that says, you know, Morgan Freeman once said, don't chase women, let them chase you. But you chased her and it worked. Subtly.

Then she chased me back. Okay. I guess. Yeah.ly. Then she chased me back. Okay. I guess. Yeah. Anyway. Not really. So would you like to tell me? Yeah, tell her.

Go ahead. Well, a lot of that is true, but I think that everyone's story is different. This is his story. This is how he sees our relationship, right? I don't see it like that. You want to start with our previous couples therapy? Yeah, we've been in therapy before. We've had a lot of issues. Before we married, we went to couples therapy.

Before we married. Yeah. Because you were already in a pattern or because you were afraid? She dragged me into it. Why did we go to couples therapy? I think that was already after like maybe almost seven years of dating. I was like maybe we... Oh, so you were already in was already after like maybe almost seven years of dating.

I was like maybe we need to. Oh, so you were already in a pattern. Yeah, we were in a pattern. Look, we dated two and a half years and I thought everything was great. And then one day he called me up and said I don't – do you remember this? No. Do you want to talk about it? No.

You can. You can. So, you know, he's 11 years older than me. So we were dating like two and a half years. And this is the first guy that's ever broken up with me by the way i don't even know if no one knows this yeah you've told you told me like 20 times okay so he like calls me up and says on the phone this is how immature he was at the time in his 30s to say listen i i i don't think i what did you say exactly it was something

along the lines of i don't think I can give you what you need. Because I was already a mom. So I was looking for something a little more stable and serious. And he was still running around. Carousing. Yeah. As it were. So half of our relationship was like that. Him running around.

Wait, but running around? You said, I don't think I can give you what you need. Meaning maybe he felt deficient. Yeah, because he couldn't be faithful. Or maybe he was unfaithful because he felt deficient. I don't know. I think he was unfaithful because he was in his 30s and owned them. I think it's unfaithful.

I'm sorry. I think it's a very selfish thing that men do when they can have. But when people feel deficient, lacking, they try to compensate. Oh, okay. I never thought of it that way. One theory. Look, he was...

I don't think that was it, but... Go ahead. The reason he couldn't be faithful is because he was a well-to-do 30-something that owned a music club. That's right. Playing on stage.

He was a musician. And, I mean, that's a, you know. Meaning? Meaning it's hard to be faithful given that situation. Well, it's hard to want to be faithful. Because you're drinking and drugging and... Well, I don't think he was drugging, but he was drinking. He likes a Frangelico and an occasional joint.

But the opportunities were boundless. The opportunities are boundless everywhere. Well, I think if you're... No, I think... I think less so than if you own a music club and you're on the stage at that music club. Right. What were you doing on stage?

And women are throwing themselves at you. I play guitar. Got it. So look, it was what it was. There is one story where we did go to couples therapy. Yeah. And the therapy session ended with the, you want to tell everyone? With the therapist giving him a foot massage.

And I swear I start, what? Yeah. I start hysterically crying. She says you must be very stressed. First she says something else to me. She goes, you must have been treated. First, she says something else to me. She goes, she says, you must have been treated with a lot of compassion in your life. She said, you're very kind. And then she said, you must have a lot of, I think you have a lot of stress.

I've been studying reflexology. And she began to give me a foot massage. She's like, can I try a little? And I just start, I just silently start crying. And in the middle of that, I go, get up. This session is over. I literally... I'll be there in a few minutes. This is what we call... I think Juanita was correct. Yeah, I was so pissed. This is what we call an enactment where the thing you're complaining about

that's happening out there starts happening in the therapy session. Yeah, yeah. That's fucked up. I never even thought of that. Yeah, it's so fucked up. Wow. Yeah.

Now, you acknowledge it wasn't my fault. I didn't do anything. The therapist's responsibility is not to seduce her patient. It wasn't sexual. It was not sexual. I think she was so kooky. It was flaky.

It wasn't sexual. It was like peace and love kind of stuff. Is there anything you guys are working on now that you'd like Dr. Goralnik to help you with? That's what I'm working every day. Him? I don't know. What is, what is not working in the bedroom?

Everything's fine in our, shut up, Dan. No, everything's fine. I mean, I listen, this is, this is one thing I do all the time. And I don't know if it's healthy or unhealthy. I know, we know so many other married couples. And when I compare their relationships to ours. Yeah, he does this all the time. I think that I have the healthiest marriage of anybody I know.

I don't know any marriages where everybody's like, oh, my God. We still, we still, you know, like everything's fine. Everybody's had it up to here with their husband and wife. Everybody's sick of it. They leave the cap off the toothpaste

and take out the garbage. We fight about it all the time. Right. You have three kids. The kids play you against each other. You have different visions for how the kids should be raised. She's Puerto Rican.

She's used to whacking her kids. I'm Jewish. I get turned off when she wants to whack the kids. These are real issues. However, when all is said and done, when I compare it to the other marriages I know, I think I'm very lucky. So that's right?

I guess you are very lucky. I guess we can talk about climate change. I don't ever compare our relationship to anybody else's relationship, but you do that all the time. I do that. I can't help it, yeah. By the way, related to what we were saying earlier about lacking comparison,

ego. Is it ego? Yeah. No, I make comparisons. Maybe I don't realize that it's ego, and I'm just rationalizing this this but i feel like when i have a problem in anything in life not just my marriage to gain perspective because it's very easy to lose perspective on one situation because whatever you're thinking about because the most important thing in the world and you say, okay, zoom out.

What is this like for 20 other people that I know? I say, oh, actually, what am I so upset about? This guy's cheating and this one's married to an alcoholic and this one's mean and she's, you know, like a million

things going on. Actually, my wife and I have a good relationship, you know. We spend time together. Everything's fine. Noam's afraid to ask this, so I'll ask it on his behalf. What do you think about marriages

wherein couples are authorized to have extramarital affairs? Thank you, Dan. Noam's afraid to ask this. Can this work? A more open type situation. Polyamory.

Ethical non-monogamy. Okay, if you like. Is this a feasible strategy? I will answer, but why are you asking? He's joking about me. I'm jokingly saying that Noam, well, look, I mean, I don't know if Noam would turn it down. Anyway.

Well, it is a... I would not turn down ethical, one-sided non-monogamy. I know a married couple, they go to this club where they, you know, they exchange. They swing. Yeah, but not often, but once in a while. Do I know them? I don't believe you do, but we can talk about it after the show. And it seems to work for them, but not often, but once in a while. Do I know them? I don't believe you do, but we can talk about it after the show.

And it seems to work for them, but maybe they're sowing the seeds of discord without even knowing it. Or is this potentially a healthy thing if everybody's on board? There are many people that are engaging in what they call now E&M, right? Ethical non-monogamy all sorts of variations of it we have a few people on the show that are in those relationships we have a um polycule um on the show now that we're taping that are i don't know what that phrase means polycule meaning they they have multiple relationships they're polyamorous but they're not they're non-hierarchical.

There are many ways that they define their relationship. So it's like a... I mean, think of like a morphing kind of structure. Okay. Anyway, but what do I think of it? I have many thoughts about it. It's happening a lot among younger people. A lot. I have all sorts of theories about why it's happening now some of them I have like a lot of admiration and respect for like why young people

are choosing to go that way which we can talk about but I also see them coming up against the things that more traditional relationships are bound by, which is like possessiveness, jealousy, needing to feel special, needing to have some kind of boundary around even, you know, finance and bodily boundaries. So I see the struggle. But there are reasons why people are doing it nowadays. They don't trust the old structures anymore. And should they? Are they on to something? They don't trust a lot of things.

They don't trust hierarchy anymore in a big way. Everything's going to lead back to climate. So just so you know. They don't trust authority anymore. They feel like the older generations have seriously failed them. They don't trust this whole system of ownership and capitalism and they're like, know, these tiny little boxes that we typically live in are not going to work if we're really facing what's coming. We're going to have to find another way to live with each other. We really do depend on each other in ways that we don't like to acknowledge.

So they're doing something different. They're really trying something different. Okay, my feeling is, and you tell me that you're wrong, where I'm wrong. I'll tell you that I'm wrong. Or he might not be wrong. So in a broad topic, I'm interested to know how you parse what is biological and what is trainable in terms of these things. These things meaning monogamy? Monogamy, jealousy, you know,

and how that bears on what innate differences there are or are not between men and women. Jealousy and, you know, and jealousy for affection and things like this, you see this in your children. This is very, and at very young age. So the notion to me that you can really actually have people not feel jealous when they're attached to someone, not feel jealous of them having sex with another person,

I find this very hard to believe. They can put on their game face for a while, but I think for most people, most healthy people, it shouldn't last very long. I think that the people who are okay with this, in my small mind, I'm like, there's something wrong with them because you're not supposed to just be able to not care that the person you love is off having sex with other people.

Can I? Yeah, I guess. And just add to that, just to bring it back in. And I feel like in some way this is harder for women than for men and that unfortunately, this is my feminist side, I've seen this where women will put up with it even though they don't want to, to hold on to the man and they'll pretend that they're okay with it, but actually inside there, it's painful for them. So those are all, you take any of those or none of it and tell me. I can, there's so much to, you'll have to remind me of like every sentence that you

said, I have a lot to respond to. To disagree with. Go ahead. To complicate. Okay. Not necessarily disagree with. Let me just start with like a small point any part of it pet peeve but if someone is different from you i mean i think we're

generally inclined to think if someone is different from me something's wrong with them i'm not vibing with that i'm like if someone's different from you oh what's going on there what how are we different? I don't know if that means that something's wrong with someone who's okay with ethical non-monogamy. They might be different from me, but let's think what's different. I know what you're saying, and I purposely put it in a provocative way. Yeah, I was provoked. And I know, especially from your professional point of view,

these kind of things matter. Yeah. But I just, so instead of saying unhealthy, say at the tail end of some sort of spectrum, which is outside the norm, you know. The norms are changing. I mean, I'm assuming we're kind of a similar generation. The norms are changing. A lot of this ethical non-monogamy is coming from people younger. Well, so for instance, just tell me a male sociopath

who doesn't have a conscience or whatever it is, I'm not saying he's not normal, but these people exist. That is not normal. Actually, sociopathy is not normal. But it exists. It exists. Definitely exists. And somebody like that could be very manipulative in a relationship.

Right. And allows and put up with certain things because he has inability to attach. Right. But this is not what we're talking about. Well, that's what I was saying. Like a man who is really comfortable with things which would make me very jealous and upset and hurtful, in some way, in my mind, I was like, well, it's because they have difficulty attaching. That's why they're able to put up with it.

That's why I said not normal, not healthy. I get it. Well, that's – I think that's – I mean, unless we're talking – I mean, I'm distinguishing here between people who, let's say, serially cheat, lie, can't actually attach to one person, like are looking for some kind of what I would think of as compensation for something else that's bothering them. I'm not talking about that. I'm specifically talking about ethical non-monogamy, which I find really interesting. It's different from my generation. A lot of my younger patients are coming in with that, and I'm watching it

closely and finding it really interesting. And these are people that are devoting an enormous amount of emotional and intellectual resources to thinking about other people. They're deeply involved in relating, like way more than I'm relating, and I'm like an analyst. But they're caring and relating and thinking about fairness and equality and the goodness of other people is top of mind for them. So this is very, very far from sociopathy. And they talk very openly about jealousy, possessiveness.

It's not like they're denying those kind of feelings. But the overall message they're bringing into my office is, okay, we might have to struggle with those kind of feelings, the feelings of feeling left out of certain kind of relationships, possessiveness, but they're gaining a certain kind of both joy, love, more love, the more love, the more love, gaining fun. More love because more people. Because there are more people to love, more people to have sex with, more people to learn from.

And there's something about this kind of expansive community that is less, you know, the circle, the wagons around my little turf and my tiny little family, that is the future. I mean, there's kind of a real vision about what's coming in the way they're conducting. And it's really not a lot about sex. It's about community relatedness, different kinship structures. And it's even about like different economic structures. They struggle with what's mine what's ours like how much can we share it's it's kind of an evolved philosophy i want to give it a try sweetheart no okay go ahead it's not of our generation it's it's i do you think we have young children and

i'm like oh my god what is it going to be like for them when they're getting into we have a 29 year old also yeah who tells me about his relationships. And he was recently last year involved with someone who was married, had four kids, and wanted to be with him. And I was like, what is going on here? You know, it's scary to me. It's not, I don't want to say abnormal. It's not abnormal. It's scary.

It's scary. Yeah. I understand. Do you want to say what scares you because of what noam was saying earlier you know there are emotions that go on people get jealous people kill one one another over this kind of love type of triangles and i'm like i don't know right but people you know in certain parts of the world people kill world, a brother can kill his sister because she was raped. It's partially culturally determined.

It's not from within. It's what kind of, what is the kinship structure? What is the ideology around your relationship that you're living accordingly? I mean, they're not alone. They're building communities. I agree, but there's a lot of reality shows about this now that are coming out. And I, I do watch a few of them and it within that,

um, group of people, there is all of those things that no one was saying. There's jealousy that one doesn't want her to be with the other person. And there's always one person that's in control of that group. So to me, it's kind of cult like also, because there's always one person who is in control of who group so to me it's kind of cult-like also because there's always one person who is in control of who's going to be where and do what to me that's

not something that's like shared and we're all agreeing yeah and that's not communal yeah that's cultish interesting yeah yeah i don't know any of these shows but that that is interesting that would worry me all of those poly shows too too. The male that's married to all these women. There's a new show now where there's a woman who's with two men and bringing on a third into her home, into a relationship. So you're saying some of these arrangements

are around one kind of cultish personality. Yeah, one person who's in control of everything that's going on. I think Orn is saying that that doesn't have to be the case. But that's interesting. Well, what she's saying is what's interesting for a television producer to show. I've seen that. Look, we know people who are swingers.

I know people who've tried polyamory and without exception, it's been a phase, and they couldn't actually pull it. But that doesn't mean that nobody can pull it. Right. And so I know plenty of people that go through that as a phase of their relationship, and then they're like, ugh, it's too much. Too much to deal with. It's too much responsibility. Too much pain.

Too much to think about. And then they're like, forget it. Well, this would be interesting to me. Can I just go back also to more thing about like biology and, and gender differences and, and, and what, and where human nature is,

you know, yeah. What's your, what is your view of human nature? First of all, just in terms of like studies, like about sexuality, it's what's funny is that when you do real studies about sexuality,

women are the ones that are novelty-seeking. So women get very habituated to sexual and lose interest in sexual partners. Oh, you don't have to tell me. I'm so sorry. But this is the explanation. Way faster than men. So it's not rooted in biology. I really do think it has to do with masculinity, ego, and the way women are kind of social. Well, is what you just described rooted in biology?

What I just said? Are women losing interest quickly? I don't know. But it's important to know, right? I don't know. I'm just telling you that empirically, like that's what the studies show, that even though women are kind of given the role of like being the ones that are like relational

and kind of pulling the relationship together and the men supposedly are pulling out, sexually women lose interest faster. So it's, you know, you could think that part of this whole, the way people are socialized is that women are actually, you know, their feet are tied in many ways because of this inclination. So relatedly, I'm sure you know this, when AshleyMadison.com got hacked, which was this website for people to find extramarital affairs. Right.

It got hacked? This is about seven, eight years ago. That's funny. What happened with the hacking? They found that it was something like 90% men and 10% prostitutes, that virtually no women were actually on that site seeking the novelty. My presumption was that women, if they wanted to have extramarital affairs, they didn't want anonymous affairs so much with somebody on an app. They wanted romance or whatever corny thing you want to put there.

But this – and this is a pattern, of course, if you look at any online sex Craigslist or whatever it is, they're all ads for women geared toward, aimed at men or gay men. You don't see a market for women doing this stuff. So why is that? Women are, I mean, first of all, the world is quite dangerous for women. I think it would be pretty risky for women to go out there and like look for sex. I mean, that's like a basic fact, horrible fact about the world we live in. So I think it's super risky, first of all, literally risky, but also psychologically and sociologically.

I mean, women are not supposed to like and want sex. It's not the way women are raised. So they're not going to be suddenly jumping out of this whole social narrative and going on I don't know what websites and looking for sex. It's just like – Ra, I'm asking why – I'm saying it's dangerous and we're socialized. I don't think it's the same. What about –

To some extent, there might be a safety issue, but I don't think the drastic difference is there. What about the argument? I'm sorry, because you could create, if there was a market for it, you could create a safe way with, you know, I mean, you could create a brothel.

You could create a safe brothel for women if women wanted a brothel. You could create a safe brothel for women if women wanted a brothel. You could do that. Some smart Israeli would figure out how to invest in that. Or a strip club that's well monitored. Yeah, that's a strip club. There are strip clubs for women.

Yeah, but you don't have women getting hand jobs in the VIP room as strip clubs. Exactly. Women are not like men. Well, that's what I'm getting at, but that's what I'm trying to say. The argument often made is that evolutionarily men can have, you know, they don't get pregnant. So they're not, they don't have to be quite as cautious having sex because they're not going to get pregnant. So they can just. And the argument goes further that they want to spread their get pregnant, so they can just have it. The argument goes further that they want to spread their seed as much

as they can because... Who, men? Evolution teaches that the person who reproduces the most wins. So men, the more they have sex, the more likely they are to pass on their DNA.

There's no man running around saying that, Norm. Of course, there's whole books written about this. And women can only have one child at a time. They better make sure that it's the right one. Evolutionary psychologists, we've had them on the show from Harvard, believe that this manifests itself in behavior patterns. Women have to be cautious. The few children that they can have, relatively speaking, believe that this manifests itself in behavior patterns. I'm not for it, I guess. Women have to be cautious.

The few children that they can have, relatively speaking, they got to choose wisely. I think generally we turn to these kind of biological explanations when we kind of don't know what to do with like the information that's in front of us. I don't believe that biology explains these things. Well, we see biology explaining behavior patterns in other animals. Okay. I think

humans are like incredibly complex, change over time a lot. And the way we behave around sexuality and what we regulate and what we don't regulate, changes across cultures, changes across time, I really don't think biology is our place to go for— I think you guys are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Yeah, this is a disconnect that I've had my whole life with psychoanalysts. And some of them are very good friends of mine. And actually, my uncle who died was Mel Brooks' psychoanalyst for a while. Are you supposed to be divulging that? This is 50 years ago. That's great. I'm not able to think that way. My thought process is that humans are animals like every other animal.

I believe we are. We are. We are. Right. And to think that something that controls every other animal doesn't control humans without somebody proving that to me or showing me data that can demonstrate that, I'm like, well, no. The presumption is obviously, to me, that men and women are different in humans just like they are in every single other species on planet Earth. Why would we be different? We share 99% of our DNA. I don't think men and women are not different. I think we are different and mostly the same, as you're saying, and in some ways different. But the

ways in which we like to imagine that difference is very much influenced by other concerns. Because if you think, for example, about sexual behavior, it really changes so dramatically between cultures and across time that you can't boil it down to DNA. That's interesting. How does it change between cultures? Just think about, like, I don't know, go to Scandinavia and then go to Saudi Arabia.

It's not the same species sexually. Well, it's becauseavia and then go to Saudi Arabia. It's not the same species sexually. Well, it's because men control the women in Saudi Arabia. Just what people do with their bodies. Is there... It's not the same species. The way they think about sex, what they do with each other. It's not like... Is there a culture either today or in the past

where women behave as we stereotypically see men behaving? That is to say that they have sex without emotional attachment, with multiple partners? By the way, most men that I work with have sexual behaviors with very powerful sexual attachments and actually one of the things that i see over my lifetime working with couples is that in marriages often men are the emotional rudder of the marriage meaning they're way more loyal and they they they kind of keep the marriage together way better than women so that... That's interesting. Yeah. I would have thought it would have been the opposite. They're like shepherd dogs that circle around the marriage.

Really? For real? I'm serious. Go ahead, go ahead. I'm serious. They ultimately, they provide, they take care, they circle around the marriage and they keep it together. And in certain ways, they're more reliable emotionally than women in that

respect. Wow. Yeah. You just dropped the truth bomb. You think that's true in our marriage? Yes. You think that I hold it together? Yeah. How so? First of all, Norm's more emotional than I am.

More what? Emotional than I am. You've always been. What do you mean more emotional? Like when you're with the kids. Oh, like more affectionate with the kids. Yeah, yeah. She doesn't mean like high strung.

She means like, yeah. Yeah, in that kind of way. I'm the one that's emotionally immature. I'm the one that's having the outbursts and I'm done with this and that kind of. Women are yeah there's a lot more but um yeah and he's the one that's always keeping it together where i'm always like what the hell what am i doing here like this is crazy yeah so it's kind of like but not that i want to leave or anything it's just always i think that look also a lot of what you're saying is culture and a lot of is our backgrounds we

both come from homes where our parents are divorced so i think for us marriage really means something different than someone else going into a marriage we went into this thinking we're never leaving each other yeah you know that's that's our mindset yeah but we we both came from divorced families and you can tell me you don't want to talk about this but we came from divorced families and you can tell me if you don't want me to talk about this, but we came from very different backgrounds. I came from a very, very, uh, stable in a certain way,

you know, uh, and, and very loving. My state, my, my father raised me and I had a stepmother, but I,

but I, I had a very, very stable, loving home. Right. And she had, she had a lot of trauma, a lot of trauma. Yeah. Uh, a lot of abuse with my parents. Right. And I did not. And she had a lot of trauma. Yeah.

A lot of trauma. Yeah. A lot of abuse with my parents. Yeah. My parents to each other. Yeah. Yeah. So.

Divorced though. Yeah. So still abuse before they divorced or after? Oh, before. Before. Yeah. Yeah. During their marriage.

Yeah. Yeah. So, but that stays with you forever. But she also. It's all traumatizing. Craziness with her family. Yeah. And. A lot of abuse in my family for sure. Yeah. Yeah. So, but that stays with you forever. It's all traumatizing. Craziness with her family and, and, uh. A lot of abuse in my family for sure. Yeah.

Right. I mean, night and day. And you said you're Puerto Rican? Half Puerto Rican. Half Puerto Rican. And half Indian. And half Indian. Yeah.

So where like, you know, I grew up where all of the women. Who is what? My mother's Puerto Rican and my father's Indian. But all of the women, the majority of women in my family are divorced. You know, they don't stay in relationships. We don't hang around for that kind of bullshit. We're out, you know. That was what it was like in our relationship before we got married.

The minute that he said whatever, I was like, okay. And he had said, oh, my God, you're not going to ask any questions. Do you remember that? You were like, any time that he was like, I want out, you're not going to ask any questions. Do you remember that? You were like, anytime that he was like, I want out, I was like, see ya. You know?

So, and that's, that's, that's really what, because that's how I was raised. That's what I saw the women do in my family, you know? And that's how we're built,

you know, kind of different. He's always like, coming back and keeping it together. I hold the film together. He does. But they're still very different sexually insofar as Noam, you know,

you would perhaps be open to ethical non-monogamy. And Juanita is... I'm open to non-ethical non-monogamy First of all, he's not open to any of that He's the most jealous person I've gone through hell with this man, but if he ever found out that I cheated on him we wouldn't be together today

That's the difference between the two of us You know? If I cheated, we would be together? We are together, you did cheat right before we got married No, no, we would got married. Since we're married, I'm talking about. No, no. We would not be together. You know that. Okay. Even for the children? Even for the children.

But maybe the opposite. The truth is, if she cheated, depending on the entirety of the circumstances, I might stay together for the children. I might say, we have to try to work together. Yeah, but you wouldn't love me the same. Why would you want to be with me? I don't know if I'd love you the, but you wouldn't love me the same. Why would you want to be with me? I don't know if I'd love you the same. You wouldn't love me the same.

There would always be that resentment that I went out and cheated on him. You know? I could resent a lot of things. It just adds to the list. But I don't know. No, I know you. Yeah.

No, she's right that it would eat me up inside. He would not. Yeah. However, that's on one side of the ledger of my life. Right. On the other hand, the idea of my own loss in not being with the kids and what it would do to the children.

Right. Just tremendous. So you would just stay married to me. Would you want to sleep with me after I cheated on you? I don't know what I would, I don't know what's possible for me. No, I'm being serious. I don't know what would be possible for me emotionally to overcome.

I can't, I can't say that. And what amount of time it would take to get there. You'd need to know why, what happened. As I said, the entirety of the circumstance. Yeah. What was going on in between the two of you that led to that yeah I mean

if it was butterscotch of your marriage where you know you were drifting apart I mean if it was if it was if it was Jason Momoa and you had a few drinks

but I'm just the only point is saying that I would I would very much try to keep my head about me and say well you know yeah sounds great

fuck this bitch I'm out of here but you know there's three other lives profoundly affected by this. If we hated each other, that would be bad for the kids too. So there's no easy solution. We hate each other sometimes. We love each other.

There are days where we hate each other. I'm just saying, for the kids to grow up, I don't want the kids to grow up. At some point, you would know better than I do, but at some point, the balanced tips where the unhappiness of the home is worse than the breakup of the home. That's a difficult thing to call. I would try to figure that out. Well, this is why I think about us works and why Noam is so lucky, right?

You're both lucky. Yeah, we are. But I don't ever hold anything back. I don't hide... Oh, I'm so lucky. Yeah, you're so lucky because it's not like I walk around every day like, oh my God.

Like if I feel something, I say it. It just comes out. I can't hold anything in. So he knows if there's a day where I'm upset that he didn't take out the trash or pick up his clothes or whatever it is. I don't ever hold it back. I'm not like holding on to it for days.

I let it out and then it's gone. Yeah, but now that you're getting closer to menopause, I don't know if I'm going to be able to make the same excuses for you that I've been making all this time. But I've always been that way. Meaning she's on PMS or something. It makes me feel better. Now she has her period. Menopause lasts a very long time. Right.

But that's just how I've always i've always that's a very long time right so but that's just how i've always been in our relationship from the get you know so for him he he always knows where he stands it's not like oh i'm not sure yeah that kind of thing uh so so wait so you're saying that's why it works i think that's why it works for him you know there's no meaning he doesn't have to imagine all sorts of scenarios that That's right. He knows if I'm not happy and I tell him I'm out, I'm out. You know, it's not like. Why does it work for you? Because I know him too.

I know that he loves me. And I know that he's, you know. After 25. You got a pillar on the roof? Yeah. Do you love me? Do I what? Listen, there's so many times that he's left and ran back to me.

It's like, where are you going now? It's like, you are you going now? We're not playing that game anymore. We're almost out of time. So you've written a lot about the vicissitudes of attachment and trauma and how they shape people's lives. So I'll tell a quick story. I told this story once before. I am going to acknowledge that there are things going on in our brains all the time that we are not privy to and we don't realize them. And the story, I don't know if you know this story.

When I was with, I think it was with Ava and I, Licorice, remember the cat Licorice? Licorice was never an affectionate cat. Was always running away. It's affectionate to me. To you, but not to me. These are pets? A cat. Anyway, to try to condense it.

A cat which I had never been very attached to. Never. At the end of its life, I had to take it to the vet to be put to sleep. And I put it to sleep and I said, do you want to stay? I stayed with the cat. And then I came out and I was like, well, how was it?

And I wasn't feeling anything in particular. I said, it was okay. And all of a sudden, I burst out crying, just burst out crying out of nowhere. Wow. And I didn't see it coming.

I did not realize that this was going on somewhere, and it just erupted. That's the word. It just erupted in me. So that was, not that I didn't believe it at the time, but it was a clear proof positive to me that there was some other, you think about a computer when you control alt delete and you see all the processes, there's a process going on there or a number

of processes going on there all the time, which you're not aware of. They're taking your bandwidth and they affect you. Yeah. And I believe from the reading I've done of what you've written that you believe a lot of these processes are instantiated early in life. Yeah. And they remain there forever unless somehow you can,

it's your job, I guess, to get it somehow and shut them down. Well, that's one way. I mean, there are many ways. Yeah, there are many ways that people kind of reach in. I mean, what you're talking about is the unconscious, right?

Mm-hmm. And there are many ways that people can try to make contact with the unconscious not only through psychoanalysis i mean people do it through art people actually actually do it a lot through comedy right like jokes and humor is a way to kind of yeah um um kind of loosen the boundary between the conscious and unconscious mind and and and get in touch with things dreaming is huge um meditation i mean now psychedelics i mean there are all sorts of ways that people want to get in touch with their unconscious and all throughout the centuries

they've they have i mean joseph and then, I mean, they're a dream interpreter. People want contact with all this stuff that's going on in the back of their mind. And what kind of success, maybe you can tell us your best success stories. What kind of success can a psychoanalyst have in actually relieving somebody of some sort of trauma whatever it is in such a way that actually changes their life they stop they end a pattern

of behavior which is damaging to them and has been for many years lots and lots and lots I mean that's the work I mean we have ongoing success

that's the purpose of the work but how does it work? does it come from just acknowledging it? no it doesn't come from ongoing success. That's the purpose of the work. But how does it work? Does it come from just acknowledging it? No, it doesn't come from... I mean, analysis takes a long time. And the reason it takes a long time is, first of all, it takes a long time to build a relationship, first of all, that engenders trust, that people can relax enough and relax their defenses against knowing enough that they would like allow certain things to come into the fore to come into the material and then they have to have an experience with the analyst that to some degree will correct whatever happened so if someone let's say grew up in like

a super abusive environment and their their whole system is geared towards self-protection and being paranoid and assuming that everyone out there is out there to hurt me and that's how they're geared towards their relationships you actually hit on something because we have this all the time where i'm much less i'm much more encouraging of my daughter walk to the store, whatever it is. We live in a very safe town. And she carries all this baggage of the danger of the world, which is not rational, actually, based on statistics

and where we live and whatever it is. And she knows in some ways it's not rational, but she can't get past it. She's not happy unless... I'm like, yeah, I don't like the kids to go anywhere by themselves you have this like orientation towards the world that bad things can happen yeah i grew up in a really bad neighborhood bad things do happen yeah so let's say you carry that in your way of being in the world and and in analysis let's say you're in a

safe enough environment that you can allow your mind to start remembering those things kind of understanding how they shaped you and then be vulnerable enough with your analyst that you're going to allow maybe some new kind of experiences to register and they're going to be intense enough because you're really attached to your analyst so it's going to be i mean i think i've had new new experiences right that are not abusive or whatever but but you just don't let go of the old. But in analysis, you do. The idea is that, first of all, the experience in analysis is intense and that you connect words and thought and narrative to those feelings and you start really morphing. It's like you're going into that program

and you're changing the code. Right. But it's a lot of work and a lot of trust and a repeat. You have to do it. And it's so deep because it's not just isolated to that one issue. That issue becomes an issue between me and you.

This causes a fight. That erupts and brings on a whole other issue. This causes a fight. That erupts and it brings on a whole nother issue. It cascades. But you have your work cut out for you in your profession. You wanted to ask about adoption

before we go. Wait, no. I have a question too. Have you ever had a couple that you just saw and you were like, listen, this is just not going to work out

for you guys. You guys should not be together. Do you ever have that when you say to that no i don't see it like that but i've had i mean it's rare i'm kind of a an optimist and a romantic and i i kind of hope the best for people but i've spent time with couples where i felt like they're too in a way addicted to the fight and they didn't really they couldn't really let go of it and

whatever i was doing was just not working right and then i say if you're hurting each other so much maybe you should think of another way to live right why cause so much pain like mutual pain yeah yeah but it's rare do you see? Most people don't want to fight. Right. But there is a thing about being addicted to the fight. Yeah. It's quick discharge. As far as the adoption, I just figured if we couldn't cover the time, we could talk about adoption. It's a good question.

I mean, I should rather talk about climate change. I don't want to talk about climate change. Dan has an obsession with adoption. I don't have an obsession. I don't have an obsession. Trans adoption? I don't have to talk about climate change. Dan has an obsession with... I don't have an obsession. I don't have an obsession. Isn't it trans adoption? I don't have an obsession with it. I just, I wonder about the wisdom

of cross-racial adoption. I wouldn't say that, but I wonder about the wisdom. You sound like Archie Bunker. I wonder if it's the optimal... In other words, you have two couples that want to adopt a black child.

You have a black couple and a white couple. Should consideration be given in your estimation, and i don't know if this is necessarily your field of expertise but should consideration be given to the ethnic background of the parents when deciding which couple to give this child to that's that's an intense question i mean the wisdom nowadays in the adoption world and and it changes, is that if it's a black kid, if there's a choice, they should go to black parents to prevent, you know, whatever you want to call it, colonization or... Oh, that's terrible. Well, culturally, they're more suitable to a black family.

I don't know what that means. Like hair and things like that. Meaning they will look more like their parents. That's what you mean. They might have less questions about identity. But that's just one way to think about things because if the parents are going to be loving, they can help the kid through whatever shit they got to go to. I mean, everyone goes through shit. That's just one way to think about things, because, you know, if the parents are going to be loving, they can help the kid through whatever shit they got to go to.

I mean, everyone goes through shit. That's right. But the wisdom nowadays is try to match people to their cultural background. Well, with regard to the colonization question, I mean, don't you think that perhaps, you know, this notion the white savior has to step in and save the black child. Yeah, that is not a good optic. You know, would that affect the child's self-esteem knowing, well, you know, it had to be white people to come in and save them. This is my layman view on it. It bothers me very much that people overlay the political, trendy, you know, the political zeitgeist of the day because these things change every 20 years, you know, onto these kids. Yes, of course, we have to be honest that if a black family adopts a black child, there's fewer awkward moments where someone assumes it's the nanny or these kind of things.

You know, these things are real. On the other hand, what does all that matter? If you have a loving home with responsible, loving parents, these things are not going to upend the mental health, in my opinion, of a child. Some kids are overweight. Some kids are ugly. Some kids, everybody has something. By that logic, we should never bring a fat kid into the world because think of what, I mean, that's nothing compared to what a fat kid has to go through. But you know, fat kids lead happy lives too.

Yes, of course they have the fatness issue, and people have worse things than this. But in this particular moment in culture, it's a very complicated issue. Hopefully in 20 years, that's not going to be... It's complicated, but in some way, I'm actually offended by it because this whole nose of colonization.

This is your own hang-up that you're overlaying on this family. They don't know about colonization I'll tell you one other story it might be the way to end or not but when I was in summer camp this always stays with me I don't know if I ever told you this story either I was like

the molestation thing? no not at all I was like a rabbi did try to molest people that's a true story but he didn't I can tell you that story too if you want. When I was like, I guess I had to be 14 years old. And it was like rest hour in the bunk and you're supposed to be quiet. And some kid had drawn a swastika over the bed.

And I was using that as an excuse to misbehave. Over your bed? Yeah. What? But not, I don't even know if it was there before. I don't remember all the details. But I was using an excuse to misbehave. And the head counselor, his name was Karl Lover.

And I don't know if anybody out there, New England Music Camp, he was the head counselor. What do you mean misbehave? I wasn't being quiet. I was acting out. I don't, I just, I got in trouble. This was Music Camp, you said? In Music Camp.

Karl Lover was the head counselor. He was a great man. This was a, he's dead now. This was a great man. And I got in trouble with him. And I said, yeah, but there's a swastika under there. And you don't know, as a Jew, I'm a Jewish. What is life? And he said, well, you just cut that out. You got to behave. Just shut up. I don't remember his exact words. Like, who are you trying to kid here? Right. And, you know, and he read, he saw right through me and he was right. And he didn't allow me to work myself into a lather, convince myself nothing.

He's like, just stop, you know? Yeah. And today, no head counselor in his position would have dared. No. Would have dared to say, good. Canceled up the river. They would have enabled and actually allowed this child to develop and to somewhere, we had to talk

about Bruce Springsteen too, feeling sorry for those. And somewhere there's a healthy, it's mentally healthy for someone you respect to say, you know what, just stop feeling sorry. Shut up with this. You know, I don't know as a professional, you have to be careful when you do that. But that is healthy. To me, it goes back to where we started

with these two different mindsets. There's a mindset in which you can if you're other than me, deplorable. And identity politics is all around that. Or there's a mindset of let me try to understand what's going on over there.

Wait, why did you put a swastika? Because kids do stupid things there was no right there was no deep anti-semitic reason to it or maybe there was but i don't know but who knows point is it really didn't bother me that much i was really just looking for an excuse to get out of but you can't ever look through what everybody knows solve is like come on you know and I was like, come on, you know, and, and it's intoxicating. But do you know who they can,

you can do that. And, and, and I didn't even really know it in those days, but now kids know it that you say this, say that the world stops. Oh yes. You know,

that twilight zone with Bill mummy. It's good that you did that with that kid who could erase everybody. Like everybody's solicitous to anybody who says a certain says anything about their lived experience yeah yeah but but did you know who the kid was that did it by the way i mean all all i remember from the incident and i was and i was always very um emotionally aware to another. But it was that he saw right through me and it was a profoundly shaping incident for me. I always remembered it and it always stayed with me as kind of like,

no, don't do that. You know, don't bullshit. So when I was young, when my parents divorced, I guess I must have been behaving in some way or maybe they were worried. They took me to a therapist. And the therapist, the first day, says, well, draw a picture. I was five.

She says, draw a picture. And at five years old, and this time around, I was like, I'm not drawing a picture. I know what you make. I know whatever I do. It doesn't matter. Just draw whatever you want. They're so stupid. At least they were in those days.

They thought I didn't know at five years old that, of course, whatever I was going to draw, they were going to use to... And I went like four times. I just never drew a picture. And finally, my father, who was very anti-therapist, said, enough of this. I do think most children probably wouldn't know. I mean, it sounds to me... I don't.

I think a lot of kids... I mean, I can't think back to what, you know, me as a five-year-old, but it does sound... I think a lot of kids wouldn't. My son Manny would have known in a heartbeat. But actually, know what? You know that your therapist wants to know what's on your mind.

No, that would be okay. Yeah. They would know that the therapist was lying to me by presenting it as an innocuous just draw a picture, have some fun. Oh, I see. Not saying, I want to know what's on your mind. Yes, yes. I knew that they were going to judge me, but I didn't know what judgment could come from any particular picture.

Just drawing a picture of mommy stabbing daddy. You're going to jump to conclusions. But I just kind of like those things. I was a macabre kid. No, I'm kidding. Five, how do you know that, though? That's so weird. It does sound like something that would be beyond the grasp

of the average five-year-old. Yeah, for sure. If somebody told me, go draw a picture, I would think, oh, yeah, okay. That thing seems to be pretty sophisticated for a five-year-old. I think so, too. Maybe if you're... I'm just riffing here, just because there's a mic.

Yeah, it's okay. But if you're growing up, if you're at an age like that where there's conflict at home and you're trying to figure out what's going on with your parents, you learn to read cues very fast. Maybe. It's not regular going on living. It's like, oh my god, what is going on? And then you read

the grown-ups. And there was terrible conflict between my father and mother. Terrible fight. So you learned how to read everything. But they handled it. She was an Israeli woman, much like Orna. So I don't know if this is traumatic for you. Both Israeli? Yeah. But your mother is more Israeli because she has an accent. Your father never did.

Whatever. They're both – no. They're just as – Except my mother hates Israel and my father was – bled blue and white. So – but in any case, there was terrible fighting between them. Terrible screaming. I remember it. But I never, somehow they always managed to communicate to me that I was not part of this, that I wasn't responsible for it.

I don't feel like I was traumatized by it. I never did feel like I was traumatized by it. Maybe I just don't realize it. It's not necessarily traumatic. By the way, no, I'm just full disclosure, has expressed some skepticism about psychotherapy in general. Has Dr. Garonik changed her mind at all? Well, no, you haven't changed your mind.

You've actually verified something for me. Because, though you might bristle at this, as you recall, my opinion about psychotherapy has always been that an insightful person can be very helpful to people with their problems. My skepticism is not about the fact that an insightful person can be very helpful. My skepticism has been about the science of it all, that you could somehow put it on a blackboard and blah, blah, blah. I feel like probably whatever you have

is much more just about your insight and your sensitivity to people than it probably is about what you've learned at NYU. And that's just been my gut feeling about that. It's a combination. A combination, but probably more. Because I think a lot of the science about therapy, it holds up if the right insightful person is the person doing it.

But what do you even mean by the science? You mean like manualized treatments that follow a certain kind of trajectory? I mean, that's not psychoanalysis. I don't know enough about it that I could read up. But I just, I've had, we've had conversations with other therapists. Not with you. And you know what? I would say so.

I've not had that feel with you. Or I just roll my eyes because they have an answer for everything. And it's always some sort of. Yeah, but that's not psychoanalytic. Psychoanalysts don't have an answer with you. Or I just roll my eyes because they have an answer for everything and it's always some sort of... Yeah, but that's not psychoanalytic. Psychoanalysts don't have an answer for anything. They listen. They always manage to attribute it. Oh, that's because you're this or that. They always have a theory

for it all. Anyway, but I think, wanting to agree, what comes through with you is a certain high level of understanding of humans. Thank you. And I don't know that that can be taught.

I agree with that. I don't know that that can be taught. I don't know if you can learn that in school. I think I've been through so many therapists with my son and then with Noam and a bunch of disasters. There's only been two made me out of the bunch, including yourself, that I feel like you have some kind of

connection of understanding what humans know. In line with what Noam was saying, do you think that just like there are some people that are talented musicians and some people that are talented athletes, is there such a thing as a talented therapist, somebody that was sort of born to do it that's just, that is there such a thing as a talented therapist? Somebody that was sort of born to do it that's just, is there an element that can't be taught?

As Noam was saying. I think so. I think there are different kinds of therapists that do different things. So I'm, for example, I'm not good at like helping people with their phobias or with their, if they have a particular ocd ritual that they want to get rid of i'm not the right person for them because of your training or

because of something both i gravitated towards a training that is like you know depth psychology i like to like sit with people and like whoa go deep and like really like hold the world with them like that's my orientation. I mean, talk to me about spiders. I'm like, I don't know what to do. Is CBT better for that kind of thing? Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not good with that.

That's not what I'm interested in. I didn't study it and I wouldn't be good at it. So if there was someone going to see a psychologist for ADHD, what kind of psychologist would they go to? They should see someone who focuses a lot on cause and effect, behaviors. I mean, ultimately, some analytic work could be interesting, too. But ADHD, I mean, there's a lot about, like, cause and response and how to create kind of conditions that help the person, like, get to their best self. It's very behavioral.

Yes. We have to wrap it up because they have to play this on the radio and everything. But if you had a good experience, maybe in the future when there's some issue in the news or something. Yeah, I love this. Is this dog full grown? Is this like some kind of mini husky? Mini husky.

The mini husky. Beautiful dog, right? Oh, he's a sweet dog. And I don't know if you like comedy. Yeah, I do. Who's your favorite comic besides Dan Adler well right now

there is a favorite comic that I it's not exactly I don't know if you'd call him a comic but I'm interested in his work because of our team

but Gerard Carmichael oh yeah he performed here yeah I haven't seen him in a while actually he was here a few months ago but I think he's mostly in LA right now

he's in between but our team is following him in a while, actually. Yeah. He was here a few months ago, but I think he's mostly in L.A. right now. He's in between, but our team is following him with a documentary. Oh, a documentary. So I just think he's great. He's fantastic. Yeah. And he has an interesting story because he came out as gay.

Right. Is he gay or bi that he came out as? He came out as gay. Gay. Okay. Gay. And we know, he definitely,

that wasn't known. At least it wasn't known by me. Norm, are you skeptical about bi men we have to go but yeah we'd love to have a fusion

we'd love to have a comedy cellar yeah I'd love to that would be amazing terrific and maybe you can help my wife with a few things thank you

thank you very much everybody good night have a fun conversation