The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - E Pluribus Unum

Episode Date: October 25, 2019

James Kirchick and Joe Machi

You're listening to The Comedy Cellar, live from the table, on the Riotcast Network, riotcast.com. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the Comedy Cellar Show here on Sirius XM Channel 99. My name is Noam Dwarman. I'm the owner of the Comedy Cellar, and I'm here with my co-host, Mr. Dan Natterman. Hello, Dan. How do you do? And welcome back. Oh, yeah, I was in Vegas.

You weren't here last week. I was in Vegas last week. Okay. We're joined today by Joel Mackey, who is a comedian who has appeared on The Tonight Show, Conan Red Eye, and was a finalist on Last Comic Standing. He may be seen regularly at the Comedy Cellar. Welcome, Joe Mackey. Thank you for having me.

And, you know, I realize why I always pass over you now. It just occurs to me. Because you never write, you never... I mean, I don't put Dan on that list either. You remember to introduce him. It's one of the reasons that he doesn't. You may hear those mellifluous tones and wonder, who is that? That's Periel Aschenbrand.

Brand. Aschenbrand. Aschenbrand. Every week. Aschenbrand. It doesn't sound like a real name, Aschenbrand. It sounds too ethnic to pronounce without some sort of accent. Like Nicaragua. Okay. of accent. Like Nicaragua.

Okay. Nicaragua. Nicaragua. The guest of honor, Jamie Kirchick, is a visiting fellow at the Brookings Institution. He's a visiting fellow. Author of The End of Europe, Dictators, Demagogues, and the Coming Dark Age. And a columnist for Tablet Magazine. He is at work on his next book,

A History of Gay Washington, D.C. Wow, that's a big... It's a big topic. So, you know, just before we get into the other stuff, The Coming Dark Ages? Yeah. I think we're in them already. In what way? I just read the newspaper.

Walk outside. Doesn't it seem like that? I don't know. Well, it seem like that? I don't know. Well, it seems like that only if you read the newspaper. Yeah, that's true. You can just ignore the news and go on your merry day. Yeah, one of my kind of defenses of Trump, if you didn't ever read the newspaper, you would think things were awesome. It hasn't actually trickled down into any

real... Unless you're an immigrant. Unless you live in a cave. I'm not sure, even if you're an immigrant. If you're an illegal immigrant, if you're not here legally, it's probably pretty tough. Tougher than it was. Unless you're in a cage and you've been separated from your parents and you're drinking out of

a fucking toilet. Okay, first of all. Those pictures from the Obama administration. Wow, we just... We just... Just got right into it. Yeah. So I'm going to grant you

that if you were caught up on the border, yes, that is different. Yeah. I don't have that much knowledge to know to what extent it's different and I assume everything

is always exaggerated when it comes to Trump. My book is about Europe, and I agree with you. There's a lot of hysteria around Trump. I feel like you have to preface every statement with this these days. I don't like Donald Trump. I didn't vote for him. I never will vote for him. I want to give you the Larry David look.

You didn't vote for him? I did not. Absolutely did not vote for him. You can't say you never would vote for him if the alternative were worse. You would vote for him. I wouldn't vote. I'd write in somebody else. Okay, you'd write in somebody else.

That's fair. Okay, so is Europe a harbinger for America? You know, in some ways, yes. In other ways, no. I think we have many saving graces that will prevent us from going down the road that the Europeans are going down. We're blessed by geography. We're surrounded by oceans. We don't have a nasty, aggressive neighbor invading us every couple of years like the Europeans do with Russia.

So just in two sentences, what is the description of the Dark Age? What's the big change happening in Europe? The thesis of the book is basically that everything we've come to associate with Europe, being liberal democracy and economic prosperity and the perpetual peace, all these assumptions are being sort of overturned, if you will. And is this because of the negative population growth of the Europeans? That's a part of it, but I look more at the security dimension. Again, the Russians,

the low economic growth, the rise of populism on the extreme left and the extreme right. Those factors. What do you think, Joe? Europe for or against? I was just there. It was great. There's so much hyperbole going around these days.

That means exaggeration. It's so much hyperbole going around these days. That means like exaggeration. Thank you. I can tell Power Peel. Go ahead. It's like when you turn on ESPN, everything is the best or the worst. Nothing's okay. Right. And when you walk around, everything is pretty okay.

And that's my only problem with it. Does Europe have problems? Yes. But Europe's always had problems and so has America. Yeah. And we're going to be okay. It's not the end of the world. I don't think.

I mean, if it is, well, it won't matter if I'm wrong. Are we going to be okay? That is the question. Are we going to be okay? I think it depends who we are. Some people are categorically not okay. Including the President of the United States. Yeah, he's not okay.

But, you know, so we talk about this every week, and I know Dan gets hard. But to me, the biggest threat to America is not Donald Trump, by a long shot. The biggest threat to America is that we are coming apart. Yeah. And we are actually embracing an ideology and a world view which can only lead to us coming apart. What's that ideology? Which is the end of the melting pot.

That the most important thing that defines us is our differences. And we're in total denial about it. And if you bring it up, you're called names rather than discuss it on the merits. And if you say, well, listen, even in Canada, when they focus on the French

versus the thing, they talk about seceding. Why are we going to hold together? And as we say every week, how are we going to tell people outside America who have no constitutional rights, come, it doesn't matter where you're from, you're welcome here, but if you're Asian, it doesn't matter where you're from,

you're welcome here. But if you're Asian, once you get here and you're too successful, we're going to make sure not to have too many of you at school. We're not going to be okay if this continues. Or we're saying, come here, it doesn't matter where you're from, but when you get here,

it totally matters where you're from, more than anything else. That's exactly my point. This is not a formula for what happens when Pluribus doesn't want to become Unum. This is it. And that's not Trump. And I just got my title

for this episode. I totally agree with you on that. And I think it's a problem on the left and the right. I think we often associate this sort of identity politics with the left, but there's absolutely

a right-wing version of it, too. I think Trump definitely exploited that. But, you know, it's kind of a chicken-and-the-egg thing, right? It's like who came first, who antagonized the other side first. It's sort of like a Weimar Germany dynamic, right, where it's the extremes on both sides, I feel like, are constantly egging each other on. I think most Americans agree with what you and I would think about American identity, but they're being drowned out by the loudest voices on either

extreme. So it's like you got Milo Yiannopoulos versus crazy intersectional leftists on college campuses. And that's sort of- Yeah, but do you really think though they cancel each other out? Like to me, the people on the right are a bunch of craz, and the people on the left are aspiring to run for president in 2024. Well, you know, I think... They want to change everything. Bernie Sanders, who is a presidential candidate, and Kamala Harris, who is a presidential candidate, are stoking racial hatred overtly this week.

Are they? I believe so. How? By saying that Trump, using the word lynch, was a racist thing. And Biden

used the word lynch 20 years ago. A bunch of people did. And a lot of people did. And people use that term all the time in different contexts. But all of a sudden now, you're a racist if you use the term. It time in different contexts. But all of a sudden now, you're a racist if you use the term. It's kind of ridiculous. He didn't mean it racially.

I highly doubt he did. And Biden used it 20 years ago and then just said, yeah, that's true and I shouldn't have, but it's different when Trump uses it. I'll let you answer, but I will say this. I do think it's possible

that he says to himself, I'm going to use this word lynch and that they're going to lose their fucking minds. But why shouldn't I use it? They use it. Why should I buy into their like if nobody would blink an eye and didn't when Joe Biden described the Clinton impeachment as a lynching. So why should I temper myself? And I that's one of the few things I like about the guy. He just says whatever the hell he wants.

No, that he doesn't that he's not cowed. He's not right. Like, by all... The political correctness and whatnot. By all rights, if they use the word, he should be able to use the word. Yeah. And he's not going to back down.

And I like that. It's sort of like Lucy with the football. It's like he constantly behaves this way. And every week, they're, like, outraged again. It's like, haven't you learned that he's playing games with you? This is why I don't really follow this stuff anymore.

I'm not really on Twitter. I don't follow the daily dramas in Washington. He's addicted. Dan's addicted to Twitter. I find it so stupid. I think Trump, he makes idiots

out of anyone who cares enough. So like his supporters, the real diehard supporters, they're idiots because to think that this man should be leader

of the free world is a blatantly idiotic proposition. But in the same way, you turn on MSNBC or CNN and you look at these people who literally wake up every day and it's how can I get outraged by this guy? And it's so predictable. He's not an interesting person. Richard Nixon is a

fascinating man. Donald Trump is not. It's one thing to say how can I be outraged, but it It's one thing to say, how can I be outraged? But it's a dangerous thing to say, how can I be outraged and stoke racial division? Yeah. Sure. And that's the difference. And to view everything that is said through a racial prism, I think, is the most dangerous threat to America, just to echo what Noam was saying. If anything is going to destroy this country,

I think that's what's going to do it. Well, look, I think you agree with me. Intersectionality is racism. Pure and simple. And they've dressed it up as righteousness, which is, I mean, I'm no expert. You probably are, but it seems to me I've heard that this is the way other

totalitarian and evil regimes have done it. They take something me I've heard that this is the way other totalitarian and evil regimes have done it. They take something evil and they pretend that this is the way of the angels. And that seems to me what intersectional thought is. It scares the shit out of me. I think the plan is we're going to unite the country by dividing it.

Whose plan is that? Well, it's like, well, this group gets this much to get into college and this group gets this much to get into college, and this group gets this much to get into college, and then no one will really be happy, and then everyone's happy. I don't know, Joe. I don't know either. It just seems like that's all we're doing.

We're saying, like, we're going to lift these people up by saying that when they do something, it's less of a bad thing. If another group does it, it's worse. In a sense, we are trying to unite the country by dividing people even more. And just the way they decided that it's okay

to just bash white people, to use white as a total insult. It's a pejorative. Aren't you sick of these old white men? That's not racism. I noticed that the first time during the Kavanaugh hearings. It's like, you can not like Brett Kavanaugh. You can think he's a right-wing judicial mastermind, whatever.

You could think he's a sexually abusive rapist, even. The fact that he's white, to me, did not seem... Attempted rapist. Whatever. The fact that he's white did not seem particularly relevant to this. Yet everywhere I saw him being described as X, Y, Z and white guy.

Well, I had the same thought. And also they were attacking the Senate Judiciary All these white guys. As if it was a bunch of Muslim guys or black guys. They'd be much more exquisitely sensitive to the issue of Muslim guys are exquisitely sensitive to the issue of how

Muslim guys are exquisitely sensitive to feminist issues. I mean, I don't mean to speak at it. I'm just saying, what are we talking about? That's the point I was trying to make, though. If it's a different group, they're judged by completely different standards. Oh, can I give you an example of that? Sure. So there was a headline today

about Pete. I didn't screenshot the headline. Mayor Pete. But Mayor Pete, they did a focus group. Yeah. Because they don't understand why he's not getting any support of black people. Yeah. So the internal focus group conducted by Pete Buttigieg's presidential campaign this summer

revealed a possible reason why he's struggling with African Americans. His sexuality is a problem. The 21-page report conducted by the Stratum said that they found, quote, being gay was a barrier for these voters, particularly for those men who seem deeply uncomfortable with even discussing it. So, fine. Black voters are not taking to Pete Buttigieg because, now imagine if this could. Trump voters. Trump voters. You can say whatever you want about Trump voters.

You can call them the scum of the earth and it's fine. Or anybody white. It's fine. Even every time a comedian does a dumb racist voice, it's always this Southern hick. And I'm like, no, there's like, we don't want those people around. It's always that guy. And I'm like, no, that's not, a lot of racists don't sound like that. So if this story was exactly the same,

but it was Jewish voters who were reluctant to support... Oh, you know they'd be all over. What would the headline be? Jewish voters despise... Whatever, you know... Not tolerant of the queer community. The alphabet community, as Dave Chappelle says. So now I'm not bashing...

Really, I'm not bashing black people here by any stretch of the imagination, to be very clear, because I think that they're no different than anybody. I think there's a lot of groups who probably feel this way. I'm bashing, in a sense, the kind of condescending way people talk about them. This has been apparent for a very long time, that Pete Buttigieg has had a problem with black voters. And it's really only in the past couple weeks that you've seen the mainstream media saying, oh, maybe this could be the reason. It was so obvious to anyone who knows about...

I mean, look, the reason why Proposition 8 passed in California in 2008, that was the ballot measure to repeal gay marriage, is because you had a much higher black turnout for Barack Obama running for president in 2008. And a lot of those voters, most of them, 70% of them voted in favor of Proposition 8. So this is not a secret among people who know about American politics that among black voters

there's more homophobia. But no one wanted to talk about this until now when it's becoming painfully apparent. I'm not even sure it's fair to talk about it as black voters because black I think are the most religious group. That's part of it. And look, there's other reasons why they're not. Look, Pete Buttigieg is really white, if I could say that.

McKinsey consultant. I mean, he just kind of screams that in a way. And also, black voters are very pragmatic. They want to win. That's why they like Hillary Clinton, I think, over Bernie, because Bernie's just some socialist promising them the moon, and they've heard white guys promising them the moon before, and they don't think he's going to win.

Biden is the pragmatic choice. So there are other reasons why black voters would prefer other candidates to Pete Buttigieg. He's got a lot of—he doesn't have much history with him, either, being the mayor of South Bend. He's new, he's young, he's not. There was a controversy with the black police chief that was fired. You can win, by the way, on Facebook, Pete Buttigieg, if you give him your email, you can win a trip to South Bend

to have pizza with Pete. I would like to do that. But it reminded me of that old joke, that old W.C. Fields joke, first prize, a week in South Bend, second prize, two weeks in South Bend. Second prize, two weeks in South Bend. He said the joke was about Philadelphia, but the point is it's probably the first time anybody's ever won a trip to South Bend.

You lost a trip to South Bend. By the way, I enter all those contests to win a pizza with Pete and even lunch with Trump. It's great material. Why wouldn't I want to have lunch with Trump? Yeah, absolutely. I'm not a Trump voter, but I clicked it. But now I get a lot of his emails.

But yeah, sure, I'll have a vote with Trump. Do you think these things are real? Do you really stand a chance for that to happen? Of course, yeah. The same chance like it's winning the lottery, you probably won't, but somebody's going to do it. And if somebody's going to have pizza with Pete, I'd rather have it.

Might as well be you. Are you saying it's a ruse? I to do it. And if somebody's going to have pizza with Pete, I'd rather have it. I just won't be you. Are you saying it's a ruse? I'm saying it's very possibly a ruse. So I just wanted to just go back and say... You'd also win a trip to see Hamilton with Chaston. Oh, wow. You'd either play Hamilton, or why the hell do I want to hang out with Chaston?

With who? That's his husband. Oh. They had to bring musical theater into it somehow, huh? You don't even want to know the comments on that thing. I just wanted to say that I'm just wondering if you controlled for churchgoers, which black people tend to be, would there be that much difference between the black acceptance of Pete Buttigieg as opposed to the white? There aren't that many white...

Within the Democratic primary, yes. Yeah. Yes. Maybe not in the general population, but within the Democratic... Well, there aren't that many white evangelicals in the Democratic Party. Sure. But this is going to be a real hurdle for him, and it's going to probably be one of the reasons why he won't win.

I don't think he can overcome it. Yeah. And so before I get to Elizabeth, what do you think about Elizabeth Warren? Not a fan. So you would vote for her over Donald Trump? I'm not going to get into my voting preferences. That's between me and the... Well, if you were writing a novel and the protagonist had to choose...

It's like O.J.'s book. If I did kill her... If I did vote... You know, I voted for Hillary Clinton. I didn't think twice about it. Elizabeth Warren, I would not have that same assurance. I can tell you that right now. But you would say you would never vote for Trump.

I can't vote for that man. He's unfit to be president. If it's Elizabeth versus Trump, you're saying your choice is either Elizabeth or Harambee. Probably, yes. Or not voting. I don't think not voting... It's an option, you can do it,

but is not voting really ever a positive thing to do? I was just in Australia a couple months ago, and they have compulsory voting, where they fine you if you don't vote. And they actually say it plays a good role in avoiding populism, because all the candidates have to appeal to everyone in society, whereas in this country, you just have politicians appealing just to their base. I think that's part of the reason why we've gotten so polarized. Don't tell the MTA that.

They'll start fining people for more affairs. It's a big problem here. I'm rambling now, but that's okay. The MTA, they keep raising. What is it now? How much does it cost? Well, they can fine the people and then use that money from the fines for voting to pay for the trade. Okay.

We're off the rails here, gang. We need to take a break. Do you think it's ever the morally appropriate choice not to vote? I mean, if you feel that one candidate is worse than the other, isn't it the morally appropriate thing? You're trying to get me to say I'm going to vote for Donald Trump. No, I'm just saying in a general abstract matter, is it ever morally appropriate not to vote? You know, I said that in 2016, actually. I had a lot of sort of never-Trump Republican friends who couldn't bring themselves to vote for Hillary.

And I was saying, you've got to vote for Hillary. I know you don't like her, but she's better than him. And I kind of now feel with the direction of the Democratic Party and the left more broadly since 2016, I feel I'm kind of in that position where I'm still never Trump, but I'm just disgusted with what I see on the left. What specifically about Warren do you find so... You know, there are big things and little things. So here's a real niche thing that probably annoyed just me and some of my colleagues.

She came out in favor of a nuclear non-first-use policy, meaning that we would openly declare and have it as our policy not to be the first power to ever use a nuclear weapon. Even for hurricanes? Even for hurricanes. And to me, that's just a boneheaded idea that the only people who would ever support that are peacenik types from the 60s. It's just a strategically unwise thing

to announce to the world and to the Russians and the Chinese, we will never use a nuclear weapon first. Because looking at history... They're like, great, we will. Yeah, precisely. You don't need to be a nuclear strategist to get this. She just threw that out there and that to me was kind of alarming.

She clearly had thought about this because it's kind of a niche topic. That annoyed me. How about the fact that her scholarship is a fraud according to Atlantic Magazine? Oh, I didn't see her scholarship, her academic scholarship? Well, look, the whole Pocahontas thing, for lack of a better term,

I think that's going to really hurt her if she's the nominee. And no one's talking about it because it's a Democratic primary. But Trump kind of had her dead to rights on that. And this is a real liability for her. I think a lot of Americans, at the end of the day, whether they're liberals or conservatives, believe in fair play. And they see a white woman abusing the system of racial preferences. That's not as bad as using the word lynching.

I think it's worse. I'm being sarcastic. They forgive it. I think she wrote a cookbook, Pow Wow Chow, which apparently she plagiarized. These may seem like minor things when we have who we have in the White House, but I just think she's a bad choice. I think she's being attacked by her own rivals on the stage. She has these plans that she hasn't said how they're going to be funded.

Who's the most viable candidate? Also, I also think one more thing. I also think, look, forgiving everyone of their student debt I think is a really bad idea. Why? I think it's a moral hazard, for one, because a lot of people in this country have accumulated student debt and have responsibly paid it off. And what kind of message does that send to all those people, right? All the people who saved and scrimped to pay off their student debt. who got a $100,000 loan so they could study puppetry at NYU and get a doctor's in puppetry

or intersectional transgender Indian Native American studies. We're all going to have to pay for that. Take it easy. No, I think that's it. And it's going to cost. Let Joe, let Joe, go ahead, Joe. The only way it's fair is if you have to turn your degree back in. You can't keep your degree that you couldn't pay for

because there's a lot of people who didn't go to school because they couldn't pay for it. And all of a sudden you're like, no, it's not fair that I have to pay for the... That's totally fair that you have to commit to the obligation you made. Yeah, but you get to keep your knowledge, which isn't very much anyway. Right.

I mean, like Noam kind of pointed out, a lot of these degrees are completely useless unless you want to go teach the same crap that you learned to other rubes. Yeah, I think instead of a system of everybody gets to go to school for free, how about a system of not

everybody should be going to school in the first place? Or vocational school? Or a system of de-emphasizing the four-year liberal arts degree. So somebody decided that a bachelor's degree, who made up the criteria for a bachelor's degree? I think it's a system of de-emphasizing the need. The four-year liberal arts degree. Somebody decided that a bachelor's degree. First of all, who made up the criteria for a bachelor's degree? I think it's a post-World War II with the GI Bill. But who said, okay, a bachelor's degree has to be this.

We're going to have four. Somebody had to make that up. Somebody had to come up with that system. That this is what a bachelor's degree consists of. This is what a master's degree consists of. I got a communications degree, and it was four years. It could have been a two-month correspondence course, but no. For what I got, what they taught me, there was no reason that it had to be.

As comedians, we're very extreme examples of wasted degrees. It's hard to find a profession that requires less formal education than a comedian. But we're not the only examples. No, that's true. And even my sister, who's on Wall Street, and she studied finance at Wharton, will tell you that pretty much most of what she uses is not from what she learned at school. What she learned at school proved to her employers that she was able to work hard and get good grades and learn.

And it was like a basically selection process. Yes. But it's not like she used much of that on the job. So, okay. So let me ask you this, Mr. Never Vote for Trump.

Yeah. We're going to get canceled, by the way, after this podcast. Oh, we are? You have no idea. Joe Macchi, M-A-C-H-I on Twitter. I've never supported Trump, and I didn't vote because I'm immoral,

but I supported Hillary. But we're into a new territory with somebody like Elizabeth Warren. And just for the sake of an exercise, let's just remove all the character issues for a second. And just imagine what the country could be

if Elizabeth Warren had her way, and compare it to what it would like if Trump had his way. So, Medicare for all, no private insurance, which to me, it's, forget about the fiscal issue. It means that we have nothing to compare it to. So like, like, you know, if there's both systems, you say, well, my friend who has a private insurance, well, he's getting his MRI in two days. I can, so that puts pressure on the, on the government system.

When there's only one system, it's like the post office. The post office never got its shit together until Federal Express. Yeah. When there's only one system, it's like the post office. The post office never got its shit together until Federal Express. So there's that. There's all these laws going around now about penalizing people for using the wrong words. All sorts of New York... That's unconstitutional.

Well, with the conservative court it is. I am quite, I think it's quite, I shouldn't say certain, but I feel very strongly the people that Elizabeth Warren would appoint would be likely to move away from the staunch free speech attitude.

Elizabeth Warren did come out and slapped Kamala Harris down for suggesting that Trump's Twitter account should be revoked. She didn't slap it down. She just wouldn't answer it. Fine, but she rejected it, which is a stupid idea and obviously a ploy for attention

that Kamala Harris was unsuccessfully doing. And so that reassures me that Warren could have easily said, yeah, I'm going to support that. And she didn't. And that shows that she's... I don't know. Let's take Citizens United for a second

without getting too in the weeds. It was this very, very controversial free speech ruling, you know? Or the people on the other side would say it was a campaign finance ruling. That's how they would look at it. Campaign finance. So without getting into the weeds of it,

I never understood the argument about it because if you were to come out on the liberal side, what you would have to say is that it should have been illegal for these people to produce this documentary. In an election time, it would be criminal. You could go to jail

for producing a documentary about the person running for president. Now, of course, you could write a book about it. I mean, it's so absurd, yet it got four votes. Imagine if... And Elizabeth Warren, I'm sure, would be in favor of repealing or overturning Citizens United. Imagine if, and Elizabeth Warren I'm sure would be in favor of repealing

or overturning Citizens United. Citizens United, the one about the cake? It was about corporate personhood. It was about corporate personhood.

But the essence, yeah. What's the one that says you can't bake a cake? That was the Colorado Masterpiece Cake Shop. Oh good,

very good. So, no, they characterize it as a corporation or people. They'll characterize it, try to make it sound ridiculous. But what they won't tell you is that what it would have meant would have been criminalizing political speech at the time of an election.

And how could that be the right outcome? It couldn't. Even Lawrence Tribes, the ACLU defended Citizens United. Right. It's been going back 200 years. It's not a new thing that corporations have. So this is scary to me on the left,

let alone the fact that Trump has made a mess of foreign, the same mess of foreign policy that I would think that she'd be capable of. Well, the stuff that's been going on with Ukraine over the past couple weeks is really bad. It's really bad. Should he be removed from office? You know, I...

It's a very difficult question. I think there's this kind of moral question, like, is what he did impeachable? And I think absolutely. I think he's clearly unfit to be president. I think his behavior alone with regards to this... I'll quote John Bolton, this drug deal regarding Ukraine. It would be amazing if John Bolton comes out as the hero, and all the lefties have to praise him as the hero, right?

They will. Who saved us from Trump. But then there's the other kind of practical question, which is, you know, if you're going to impeach a president, I think it needs to be bipartisan. And I worry that going into an election, we have an opportunity to beat him at the polls, and why can't we just do it that way? And it's going through an impeachment process, tearing the country apart. We saw what it did with Bill Clinton.

It was a purely partisan action, and I think what Trump did is much worse than anything Bill Clinton did. But I question the practicality and the pragmatism of going through with impeachment. But that's a political question. Do I think he deserves to be removed from office? Yes, I do at this point. What do you think, Perrielle? I'm going to be shocked to hear what Perrielle thinks.

What do you think? Trump should be removed? Obviously. And then you're left with President Pence. So where does that get you? That's really the problem. Well, he's not mentally unstable. He's normal.

He's just in the closet. No, I mean, he's a horrible human being. Wow, why do you say that? What do you say to that? I mean, I think he's a homophobic racist. Why do you think he's homophobic? You mean like the black people who won't support Pete Buttigieg? See how that goes?

Why do you think he's homophobic? I'm curious. Are they horrible who the black I mean don't try to make me say something don't try to

this is entrapment I'm making a point to you going back to my earlier point is that how forgiving we are of this person

no I'm not forgiving I'm never forgiving of homophobia I mean for starters like I don't forgive homophobia okay go ahead

but why do I think I mean for starters I don't forgive homophobia but why do I think I mean I just feel like I would almost bet really a lot of money that he is I don't know that I can I mean I'm sure I could get online

but I know that I've read things I'm like yeah this guy is I just think he's a bad dude. And I think that he's a worm. And the fact that he's standing by Donald Trump... That bothers me more. What kind of moral fucking integrity do you have? On that, I agree with you.

Who are you referring to? Pence. I lost track. I mean, any... To be an evangelical... You have to stand by him. He's the vice president. But why?

I mean, if you have any integrity, I mean, I don't care if you're a Republican or conservative or what. Like, Donald Trump is unfit to be president of the United States. Wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah. You asked me the fucking question. Well, not with what's been proven so far. Because they initially said that this whistleblower had information of a quid pro quo. And then we find out, well, he has second-hand information. Then we find out from the transcript that there's no quid pro quo mentioned. Then we find out that the hearings have to be secret.

And we're finding out that he's a Democrat. His bias might be that he's a Democrat. But what about this guy, Taylor? I would highly recommend you read the testimony of Bill Taylor, who's the number one diplomat in Ukraine right now. If you're going to come on here and ask me to read, all right, we're going to have to send you on your merry way. I read it.

I've been to Ukraine a lot since 2014 when the Russians invaded. It's a country that I think is very important, and I care a lot about its future. And to read this testimony, this guy's a career diplomat, career foreign service. He's a Vietnam veteran. He has served Republicans and Democrats. And you just read what the president is doing, and it's disgusting. It's a drug deal, to quote John Bolton. You're not getting the exculpatory evidence out of that yet.

Let me make the case. If Adam Schiff wants to keep it secret, you have to have both sides. Schiff is also, he's a problem. You have to say, well, I haven't heard the whole story yet. Let me make the case. I defended, I hate to say I'm defending Trump, but I was not.

Periel has to go. Bye. Bye, Periel. Go, I want to say something. No. Our censor's gone now. I adamantly felt all through the Mueller thing, through the Russia thing, that they were not making the case.

But here I think the case has clearly been made. One simple question. Do you think if there was no Hunter Biden mess in Ukraine that Trump would have any serious interest in whether this aid... Of course not. Of course not. And that tells me...

Also, Donald Trump cares about corruption? Really? Yeah, it's absurd. I mean, he might in a crouch, I think, but... But I... And by the way, there's another issue which is not getting enough attention, I don't think, but to me, it matters because it's much more in the realm of a high issue, like high crimes, a high issue, which is that for an American president to, in a roundabout way, find a way to get an American citizen investigated without any due process.

By another country. By another country. It's like rendition. Like, you know, it sounds to me like even more serious than anything else that we're talking about. Personally,

that is like, like I had a friend who was caught up in... Who just happens to be the son of his political opponent. That's right. That's completely coincidental. I had a friend

who was caught up in the Mueller thing. Oh. And cleared. Totally cleared. Do I know this person? No, no. And I was like, and I asked him like, can you imagine if the next president came in and said, you know what?

I'm not satisfied with the way Mueller investigated. Hey, Putin, could you investigate this dude? It's called double jeopardy. You're not allowed. You can't do that. That would be a violation of an American citizen's rights. So I find that very serious. However, let me say the final thing.

Which he did with Hillary. Basically, he said that they should investigate her emails again after he came into office. And they just apparently cleared her of that. All right. And by the way, there are procedures to do this without. He could bring it to the Justice Department to investigate this thing in Ukraine. There's a way to do it above board, and that's the way it should be done. However, there is one thing where I tend to agree with you,

is that in the end, the aid actually did go through, and if it actually had been held up, like literally American policy had been rerouted because of this, I'd say that's it, done. We have to remove him. So the fact that he relented in the end. The fact that he relented or that he never even really meant... But it was suspended for a couple weeks.

Yeah, but I tend to think he was trying to get something out, but he didn't even have the legal authority, really. I think it was a big bluff. It's not much of an excuse for him. It's just he always was the same way in a lot of the Mueller things. Like he said, blah, blah, blah, but he never really followed through. He never pulled through. He's a coward. I mean, if the Ukrainians thought that there was a deal,

the best evidence that there was a quid pro quo was that they did their end of the bargain. Right. But they didn't. So clearly, they didn't think there was a deal. Well, because it was leaked, and it came out, and it became public. No, it was months ago.

Well, it was early September that he finally agreed to go through with it. Wasn't the call in July? The call was in July, but he didn't agree to finally come through with the aid, I think, until early September The call was in July, but he didn't agree to finally come through with the aid, I think, until early September. Maybe because he was waiting

on the investigation. I'm not clear on the timeline. It could be. It seems to me like in July, he would say, listen, I have a favor. I want Biden investigated. And then in August,

if there was an investigation, I would have been like, oh, they got the message. But they didn't do anything. So I'm like, well, it didn't seem like they really got the message. They didn't do anything. So it'm like, well, it didn't seem like they really got the message. They didn't do anything.

So it just makes it murky. Right. And why I think that for the first time, I do believe he's crossed the threshold of an actual impeachable offense. Right. But, yes, an election would be much, much healthier for the nation. And I wish people would breathe. This is what annoys me. It would be healthier, but it also would likely result, in my opinion, in his re-election. I think it will.

And I think this is part of the problem. That's democracy. Yes. And I think, unfortunately, a lot of people in this country have not reconciled them to the fact that Donald Trump won fair and square, including Hillary Clinton, who can't seem to move on. You should talk about the number. And I think it's really unhealthy. I mean, look, I didn't, again, I didn't vote for the guy. I didn't want him to win.

He won. I accepted it. I feel like a lot of people in my kind of world haven't come to terms with it. Someone like Adam Schiff, who I think is really using extra electoral means, basically, to remove a democratically elected president. Yeah.

And it just makes me uncomfortable. Joseph, I noticed, I think you looked at your, at the time, I don't know, do you have a spot? No, no, I just saw that Hillary Clinton just called you a Russian asset. I just checked Twitter. And by the way, do you agree with this? This is what people don't get. They think that people on the right love Trump.

The left thinks that, oh, they love Trump so much. No, they don't love. They think that people on the right love Trump. The left thinks that, oh, they love Trump so much. No, they don't love Trump. Some do. A lot of people on the right love Trump. This is what I would, if I played a part of a right-wing person, I would say to a left-wing person, no, it's not that I love Trump. We hate you. Yeah, well that's a huge part of it. That's a huge part of it. He's a troll. He's a troll. This is why

Biden is leading. Why else would Biden be leading in the polls when he's a bumbling feeble... Why do you think? Because he's palatable. He's the only person that we don't, from people who are centered to a little bit right-of-center, say, oh, I don't hate this guy. But I think Warren is going to win the nomination because that's where the energy and the emotion on the left is because she pisses off the right.

That's right. In the same way that Trump, as you correctly note, is a troll to the left and conservatives thrill at that, right? He fights. He's for us. I think Elizabeth Warren has more of that kind of attitude than a lot of people on the left like. She scares me.

I'll give you a good example. I'm gay. I support gay marriage. Her answer to that question, I don't know if you saw this, she was asked. I didn't know you were gay. Yeah. Only on the weekends. Parry out! She was asked, what would you say to an old,

I think it was a white guy, an old white man who opposes gay marriage. Yeah. How would you explain to him why he's wrong? And she said, well, I'm only, or who believes marriage is between one man and one woman? And she said, well, I only think you should marry one woman, if you can find one.

Yeah, a little snarky. And to me, that was, I mean, look, 30% of the people in this country, 35%, maybe 40% oppose gay marriage. Is that really a proper way to speak to our fellow Americans? I disagree with them. I don't think speaking down to people like that is really productive.

But clearly, you know, the audience got a thrill. The left gets a thrill out of it. And that's the kind of answer that they want. So she's moving into that kind of Trumpian territory, I think. And that she's speaking just to her side. Just to her supporters. She won't go on Fox News,

apparently. Did you support gay marriage all along, Dan? Don't be intimidated. I'm not intimidated. I support gay marriage all along, Dan? Don't be intimidated. I'm not intimidated. I support gay marriage as a matter of... Did you always support? I never really discussed it, but I don't care. I don't know that the Constitution guarantees it.

Sure. Just the same way I feel about abortion. I'm not against abortion. I don't know that the Constitution guarantees that we have a right to an abortion. But as a policy. As a policy, sure. Why not? Gay marriage will destroy the institution of homosexuality.

You're joking? It's a joke. It's a joke. So I want to admit that I was never against it wouldn't be the right word because I was like, whatever. But I felt at the time and I was wrong. I felt at the time that there was a

certain vindictiveness that I sensed in the agenda of ramming it down like white religious people's throats that turned me off. And at the time, I supported this idea that they should make all weddings outside of churches civil unions and just leave marriage to the religious people to define.

But I'll tell you when I changed my mind. Now, that came out of the mouth of a guy who was very, very, very much like in law school. I volunteered for gay rights pro bono stuff. I was always very much interested in that cause. And I knew people were gay bash. It was important. It was just that one issue. But when I saw the happiness, that day, and there was just exuberance, and Obama lit the White House up in the colors, at that moment, I said, no, I got this one wrong.

See, I think, oddly, now there's vindictiveness. You mentioned the cake case. I got so angry at that gay couple, you know, suing a Christian baker, trying to bankrupt someone because he wouldn't make them a wedding cake, go to another fucking bakery. Yeah. Well, that's Andrew Sullivan. Well, Andrew's a friend of mine. We totally agree on this.

And I don't understand. We've won. Yeah. We've won. We've won. Why are we now acting like sore winners? Yeah. And this is what I don't get.

So I disagree that there was vindictiveness before. There was some vindictiveness before. But it's odd now that we've actually won gay equality in this country, and now it's so nasty and bitter towards people. Yeah, I said to somebody the other night, I said, you know, listening to the debate, gay marriage is the law of the land. Why are we talking about this now? Like, this is a hot issue now?

Well, now the trans thing has taken over, and that's all that they talk about. I still see comedians say, I support gay marriage in New York City, and I'm like, wow. That's great. You are brave in New York City. Wow. So what do you think about this trans?

Oh, I really don't want it. I'm going to be canceled. You don't want me to be canceled. No, I look. I don't want you to be canceled. So we're in Greenwich Village, right, which is just a couple blocks away from the Stonewall. Yeah. And I actually wrote a column for Tab is just a couple blocks away from the Stonewall. Yeah.

And I actually wrote a column for Tablet about this, but, you know, the story of Stonewall, the Stonewall uprising, this epical moment in gay history, is now being rewritten as having been led by trans women of color. Bill de Blasio, the great mayor of this city, is spending $750,000 of your tax money to build statues to two trans women of color who allegedly were the leaders of the Stonewall uprising. One of them actually didn't show up until two in the morning. The other was strung out on heroin on a park bench in Bryant Park. We know this. You can read it all on my piece in tablet. So this is just a complete and utter

whitewashing of history. So that annoys me. Maybe like not even a whitewashing. It's a whatever a transwashing. It's a transwashing. A lynching. No, look, I look, I think that we should respect everyone and I don't think anyone should be

discriminated against because of who they are. As a gay man, what worries me is that I'm seeing this push to say that gender non-conforming children are transgender. And to me, that's very dangerous because 85% of gender dysphoric children, that is children who don't conform to the gender of their birth, grow up to be gay. Right? So the boy who maybe

wears a dress and plays with Barbie dolls and is really fabulous, he's going to grow up to be a gay man, okay? The tomboy girl who likes to play baseball and play with trucks or whatever, she's going to grow up to be a lesbian woman. What we have now is this push to declare that these children

are actually of the opposite gender. And I believe that children should be allowed to experiment and grow. I believe for gay children should be, you know, you go through phases, right? That's what puberty is about. So when I see a nine-year-old being trotted out on a CNN debate as a transgender child, imagine if they took out a nine-year-old and said, this is a gay child. I mean, it'd be crazy. No one knows what sexuality they are at the age of nine. So I find this a little worrisome. Well, I do think people have a good idea what their sexuality might be at the age of nine.

Do they? I think so. I mean, it's not 100%, but I think you can get a pretty good gauge. Oh, no. When I watched Star Trek at nine years old and I would get an erection, it was the alien that turned me on, not Captain Kirk. It was very clear.

I mean, you know, I mean... I always liked aliens of color. In your life, what age do you think you knew? I don't think I knew until I was 12 or 13. Wow, you're a late bloomer. I think you're a late bloomer. That's all right.

Okay. I had a crush on a girl in kindergarten. Begged my mother to arrange a play date. Never fucked her. I went over to her house and nothing happened. As usual. But I don't think it's a coincidence that it was a girl that I had a crush on. Sure.

You know. But look, if you say you're gay at nine years old, you might grow out of crush. Sure. You know. But look, there's a, if you say you're gay at nine years old, you might grow out of it. You might be gay. There are procedures that are often undertaken

if you're trans. There are hormone blockers. Yeah, well, that's another issue. So there are things that are contingent upon being trans sometimes that I think make that

something more of a serious or however you want to put it, decision. Okay, so how... Go ahead, I mean... I'm just a little wary. Again, I think trans people should be respected. I'm not denying that they don't exist. I'm not one of those people.

I just think that there are some issues where the gay community and the trans community have some beef, and that's only now sort of emerging publicly. Okay, but how about the blatant, unless I'm missing it, I've never... Also, men should not, sorry, biological men should not be participating in women's sports. End of. Hold that thought, because I want to get through this.

So, because... Even saying biological man, I'm going to be canceled for saying that. So how about this, what I regard to be a total contradiction. I've said it before. I finally heard somebody say it recently somewhere. That we're told over and over again that gender is a social construct. Right. Meaning that when women are feminine or anything that they do is because society has taught them to. Like wearing a dress.

Whatever. Pink. Crying. Girly. You name it. Femininity. The whole feminine, it's just totally something that's imposed on them and taught to them. However, if you have a five-year-old girl who's acting like a man, she's born transgender.

Right. Well, then where did she get all that masculine behavior from? It reifies, this sort of narrative, it reifies the gender binary. So no, wait, both cannot... It cements it more.

Reify? Yeah, it's imposing this gender binary. Right, but what I'm saying is that the two things cannot both be accurate. Right, right. They're blatantly

in contradiction. No, and you find a lot of radical feminists, sort of second wave feminists, have real beef with this aspect of the transgender movement and the transgender ideology. They said we try to liberate ourselves

from these confining gender norms. The notion that all women have to wear dresses and like pink and be effeminate. And now you're trying to reimpose them on us by stating that these are what a woman is. And I think we should just break the binary. Let people express their gender

however they want. And if a man wants to wear a skirt and be a man, great for him. But before they start operating on children, they ought to have science that backs them up. I don't think children are being operated on. The operations don't happen until

later, but there are others. Hormone blockers, puberty blockers. There are medical interventions involved. You're going to correct his use of the word reify. Reify indeed means make more concrete or real. I don't know how I spent all this time. Have you heard that word? I've never heard the word

reify. I can reify your point that I have not heard many times. I think I hear reify, I think diarrhea. Reify just sounds like a medical condition. A suffix and a prefix put together. It doesn't sound like a word. It is a word. But it is a word, and you are correct in saying that. As far as giving hormones to kids, I mean, in a way I get it,

because if you let that kid hit puberty, there's going to be a line that is crossed so that the kid will never... You have a young boy that wants to be a girl. Who thinks he wants to be a girl. Maybe he really doesn't. He's nine years old. He said 85% of the time they grow out of it. But in the case where they don't grow out of it,

if you let that young biological male hit male puberty, then he has lost any chance of looking like... Probably dangerous to say, but of looking like, probably dangerous to say, but of looking like a real chick. My whole issue with this whole... Have you seen Bailey J? She looks like a real chick. She does, but I don't know when she started.

And she's one of the few that I have jerked off to. One of the few. But I don't know when she started getting hormones, Bailey J. She might have started young. And she would be an argument for young hormone treatment. So let's talk about the athletics. So a transgender female just set the world record for cycling or something like that? Yeah, right, right.

It's not that challenging if you have male hormones and male muscles and a male skeletal frame. They would argue that they don't have the male hormones because they have hormones. They have lots of other male things that give them an advantage over women when it comes to physical activity. They keep dominating.

This is not a coincidence. I agree with you. Everybody knows it. I agree with you. But my only concern would be is to exclude them. Then where would they go? Because they can't really compete with the men either. Then they can have their own league.

I'm sorry. Women athletes have it hard enough as it is that they should not be then made to compete against biological men. And when someone like Martina Navratilova, who is one of the best tennis players in history and and a lesbian, and a very important figure in the gay community, when as a woman she points this out, and she's branded as a bigot by these know-nothing millennial queer nothings who call Martina a bigot? Go away. Shut up.

I mean, really, it's absurd. It's absurd. That's the whole problem with this whole debate. You can genuinely be trying to find the truth and asking reasonable, sincere questions. But if you say anything that you're someone, I don't know who, decided is the right answer, then you're just labeled a bigot or a phobic or whatever. And that just seems like— You can't even have a discussion.

You can't have a discussion about it. You can't be wrong. Well, they have more lung capacity, thicker bones. It doesn't matter. So, am I wrong by feeling that there's a correlation between that reaction you're describing and the fact that there's not good

arguments to defend their position? Would you have to call somebody a bigot if you could just spell out exactly why 2 plus 2 equals 4? I think my argument to defend their position would just be, as I said, because they have nowhere else to go unless you want to put them all in their own league. Then you're really excluding them. Let's say a high school trans athlete would really have nowhere to go.

There's just not enough to form their own league, I wouldn't think. Say in a conference in southwestern Connecticut where I grew up, it would be three, four, five. So what's the solution? Solution? Well, the solution might be just let them compete. Let them compete against the men. And they win all the trophies?

I'm saying that's a possible solution. Can I just say this? Make them wear a heavy... Like Harrison Bergeron. The Kurt Vonnegut. There's all sorts of reasons that we divide people up into... By gender? By sex? No, into

teams that compete against each other or like weight class in boxing there's age in elementary school, wrestling, whatever Your psychological state of mind in terms of how you see yourself and your gender is not something that

would come into a decision to say it was not fair to have these people compete against these people. Good point. Period. It's not a reason. You're right. And you should still compete with the men.

Against people, yes. If you want, you know? Well, they're going to get clobbered if they compete against the men because they're taking hormones. Well, I've said this before. This is the tragedy. I think that...

I think that... Wait, let me finish. That I think we're all at this table feel the same way. We all want everybody to get the full happiness... To be included. Out of life. And people who are transgender have drawn a shitty hand. Absolutely.

And we should do everything that we can to ameliorate that. Yes. But we will never be able to ameliorate it completely. There's going to be certain things that it's just going to be, and our heart breaks for them, and it's important to say that. As a gay man, I'm not going to be able to have a child with a woman. I mean, maybe I, through science, we could. But this is something you have to just accept.

I could adopt a child. You could make one, but it's not going to, you know. You don't have a bestie that you could have sex with? I'm just saying it's not in my future. But I accept it. When it gets to the world, if you take this to the Olympics, do you have any question that the Soviet or the Russian weightlifting team is going to be a bunch of dudes in wigs?

Like, you think they're going to really respect? Like, they're really, no, these are really transgender. I mean, it's going to be totally corrupted by every dictatorship. And by a lot of cynical athletes. What we don't want, though, what we utterly don't want, is to encourage bigotry. And if indeed we decide that the best course of action is not to let transgender women, say, compete against other women, we have to make clear that this does not mean we don't respect them as human beings. Of course.

We want his parents in the audience protesting in a mean way against transgender teenagers. Oh, but this is designed to make people resent them. I think in the same way that suing a baker in Colorado for not making a cake for a gay wedding, to me that creates homophobia. If not homophobia, it creates antagonism between gay and straight people that does not need to exist. It's unnecessary. And I feel like this is the same thing. It used to drive my father crazy that some Jew would go down south and pick a fight about the grammar school in Mississippi.

That's not a good analogy. That was singing Christmas carols or something. Oh, that. I thought you were going to say registering black people to vote. No, he said that. No, he's saying like... Going after the creche on the town square or something. Yeah, my father's like, we're so happy.

We have everything in this country. Why are we going to go put it in their face? And it is similar. I agree. Even if, theoretically, yes, there shouldn't be a national, if you really want to say, how do you defend a national Christmas tree? Oh, whatever. But why?

It's absurd. Yeah. It's absurd. It's just going to alienate people. I know. You know, it is what it is. I think Joe is a Christian and might agree with you. What does ameliorate mean?

I think it means to reify. Did I use ameliorate correctly? It means to improve. You knew that. Yeah, sorry. No, I mean to, to reify. Did I use ameliorate correctly? It means to improve. You knew that. Yeah, sorry. No, I mean to... All right. So...

Well, I think we're... I mean, we've done an hour. I would like to know, Noam, if we have time, if you want to continue. We had a discussion last week on Columbus Day, about Columbus Day. Yeah. And I wanted to know what your thoughts might be. Well, I know your thoughts, Jamie. Yeah.

Is Columbus, was he simply a product of a brutal era? Or was he uniquely evil and should be discarded as a national hero? I think he's both. Or both. I think he was a brutal guy, clearly. But he was also a great explorer. Although he didn't even really discover the United States, right? No, he went to like

the Caribbean. I think he went to St. Bart's? You know, I... He's been discovered in the Western Hemisphere. Yeah, I mean... I've heard that he wasn't that brutal. Oh, I thought he was. I've heard some revisionist history. Oh, really? I'd have to look. To be honest, it's not

something I've studied up on that much. You know, about... Now, you're an Italian. I've heard some revisionist, revisionist history. Oh, really? I'd have to look. To be honest, it's not something I've studied up on that much. You know, about... Now, you're an Italian. I'm an Italian, but Columbus was not an Italian. Italy was not a country until it coalesced from city-states in the 1850s. He was Venetian or Genoan? He was Genoan. And if you asked him, if you said, you're Italian, he'd be like, what is that?

Went to a wedding a couple weeks back. I talked to the bride and groom. I said, hey, how long before you two have kids? Because I really don't have any boundaries. And they said they don't want to bring children into the world the way this world is now. I'm like, well, that's a weird thing to say, the way the world is now, because by most ways of looking at it, this is the best the world's ever been in history. 200 years ago, if you were very lucky, you were having 15 kids. Most of those kids would die. Most of life was having kids, then watching them die.

Then you would die of a disease they prevent now by washing your hands. Being a doctor shouldn't have even been a real thing. All they were doing was telling you the name of what you had. Sir, you have tuberculosis. Lie down. That's it. Sir, your arm's infected.

We'll cut it off. Although we didn't wash anything. So the stump will also get infected. We're just going to keep cutting the stump shorter until you're dead. Like your kids. That'll be five chickens, sir.

The Italians in this country get very defensive about Columbus Day. His name wasn't even Columbus. It was Cristoforo Colombo. Peter Falk? I think I read that the reason he became a holiday is because at a time when Italian-Americans were victims of terrible discrimination, they needed to feel like a part included. Like the transgender woman who just wants to be in the sports league. Right.

Okay. Sure. And so they were given that holiday. We said, well, give the Italians Columbus and hopefully they'll shut up. And I think that was the origin of it. Yeah. Or at least partly the origin of it. Yeah, that sounds... Or at least partly the origin of it. I don't care if...

Look, as far as Columbus is concerned, if they get rid of Columbus, it doesn't bother me that much. I don't think... I don't know how much longer Jefferson and Washington can hold the line. I am afraid that that is sort of where this all leads. That is where it all leads.

I said that six, seven years ago. It's not politically palatable to say it now, but I do feel that that is where this leads. If they took one of Jefferson's quotes about the inferiority of... Senator Warren. We have a monument in Washington, D.C.

They're already renaming the Jefferson Jackson Day dinners. Right, but in a debate. Senator Warren, we have a monument in Washington, D.C. to someone who said slaves. How do you justify that? She'd fold. I feel it is weird now. Not weird, it's disturbing now that it feels like Democratic politicians are only campaigning

or trying to appeal to the sort of Twitter crowd. But I actually don't think that that's very demonstrative or representative of the actual Democratic Party. If you actually look at Democratic voters, they're more moderate than you might think watching these debates. Yes. That's why Biden's leading. Right. Apparently I saw today

that he's leading by more than he's gone back up. Has he? CNN poll said so. And our friend Harry Enten from CNN, he's been very stubbornly saying that he thinks Biden's

sitting pretty. But his fundraising is not doing well, I think. I don't know. Well, he's going to get impeached for trying to stop the investigation of having the top lawyer

of the Ukraine fired for investigating his son's oil company. I don't know that money matters that much. Look, Donald Trump didn't have a lot of money. I don't think it matters what it used to mean. No, it matters less. We're being pulled to the extremes by social media. It gets people into groups. It gives them half-truths.

And look at what the Democrats have to defend. They say that $140,000 in Facebook ads swung an election. No one changes their mind on Facebook. But millions of dollars is necessary in order to win an election. Well, which is it? I mean, if you can win an election for $140,000, Biden

doesn't need anything. If you see something you don't agree with on Facebook, you call the person stupid. You don't change your mind. The whole idea is preposterous. So I guess that was a quick hour. Jamie, you should be on TV. I had a great time. Well, from your mouth to the TV producer's ears.

I do know some people. TV-friendly look to him and vocal quality and all that. I have a face for podcasts. No, no. I think he's a reasonably attractive man. He looks a little bit like Joe DeRosa, actually, to be honest. Oh, much better looking than Joe DeRosa. No offense, Joe.

Like a handsome, more masculine Joe DeRosa. What would you like to... Have you tried to get on television? Well, I've been on Bill Maher. Oh, you have? I didn't know that. But to be honest, that's the only show I like. I mean, I look at cable news these days, and it's such a... I mean, is there any good show on cable news? Is there any show that like. I look at cable news these days.

Is there any good show on cable news? Is there any show that you watch on cable news? Laura Ingraham. I'm kidding. I'm serious. It's a shout fest. There's nothing. It's just moronic. Brian Williams is not bad.

The 11 o'clock show is not bad. I'm rolling my eyes. I used to like the O'Reilly factor. Oh, wow. I used to enjoy the show. I used to feel that there was an interesting... Well, Tucker's kind of doing that shtick now. He's smarter than O'Reilly.

I've heard other people say that, but I don't like his show as much. I don't like him. I don't take to him. I'm not a huge fan of him either, but he's doing that kind of angry... If I can say it, angry white man shtick. But he's very... He's a little smarmy.

He had Max Boot on, and I can't stand Max Boot. And I was, by the time Tucker got finished with him, I wanted to donate to Max Boot. Like, he was so rude to him and just, like, was not a highbrow. So what side did you take in the epic Lauren Duca, Tucker Carlson? Who's Lauren Duca? Oh, she's the one who wrote the piece, Trump is Gaslighting America, for Teen Vogue.com. I think Lauren Duca's on the schedule to come here unless she canceled. She's now a member of the LGBT community, apparently.

You say that with a certain degree of dismissiveness. No, she announced it a couple weeks ago on National Coming Out Day. I thought I detected it in your voice, but maybe not. And, you know, it's great. I would check out the Greg Gutfeld show on Fox News this Saturday at 10. You can see me. Gutfeld is funny. Yeah, he's funny. He's also like,

he'll give people their due. When I tell comics I'm on Fox News, I get a lot of pushback, and I'm like, well, you've never seen the show, because he's never, it's kind of a soft news show, and he's never said... I mean, he had Lee Camp on the show all the time. He's probably... He's the RT guy, isn't he?

He had a show on RT. He's very liberal. That's unforgivable. He's not liberal, he's a... Gutfeld is a libertarian. Gutfeld is not a moralist. Gutfeld doesn't care about gay marriage and things like that. And ironically, as much as Fox is worse than it's ever been, it's still more diverse than any of the other networks, which is crazy.

Like, you know, you'll hear when Judge Napolitano or Shepard Smith, until he quit, people would be blasting Trump. But in MSNBC, I mean, it is a party line. Even covering up for people like Joy Reid and things like that. They're nuts on her. That's incredible that she's still there. Incredible. Has the FBI investigation found the time-traveling homophobic hackers? Not yet.

Because there was apparently an FBI investigation. I'm not sure what the results of it are. She called on the FBI. Right, okay. All right. Any predictions about what the FISA on the five uh... the i g report is going to show on the uh... carter page the origins of the that's very interesting thing to

watch yeah i think i don't know i'd be devastated could be it potentially could be a lot she wouldn't take this long otherwise that the origins of the steel dossier i think i know i'm not that they're not saying yeah i think isn't i i think that it's totally... We didn't talk about this before, and I know we have to go, but one thing I do think about is

that this... You can't even talk about it without being nervous about it, but I wanted to say, this poor guy, Trump, from day one, they wanted to impeach him.

From July of 16. Now, I run a business, and I cannot imagine, you know, there is a failure of empathy, not sympathy, which obviously is something different, but just imagining what it's like in someone else's shoes. The rage that he must have experienced

during this whole time to get in there being called a russian agent it's all right bullshit they want to impeach him for everything and he's trying to do his job in some way you know in his own egotistical crazy way no president has ever and to find that to find out that much of it was false, is not a credit. Nobody should be happy about that. And then the final question in my mind is always, well, how much of what we

might eventually impeach him for is reactive? I think the reason why he fired Comey, the reason why he did all these things that they claimed was obstruction of justice, it was obstructing a non-crime. There was no underlying crime to this.

So yeah, he was pissed off because, as you say, he had all these people basically clamoring for his head for a crime that he knew he didn't commit. I used to describe him as the George Jetson defense. Jetson, you're fired! Or when Mr. Spacey would fire, but he never fired him. It's just rage. When Trump isn't the president anymore, or Warren, or Kamala Harris, or whoever is the president,

now we have a situation where you can investigate the presidential candidate of the opposing party with a law on the books. I mean, we've made it till 1978 without having a FISA law. We didn't need it. But all of a sudden we need this Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which sets up a fake court.

It sets up a court that only has one side, the government against itself. It's like a Harlem Globetrotters game. There's no real other side. The generals are going to lose. And that's why it's bullcrap to even call it a court. But I think people should be troubled by the fact that you can investigate anyone for any reason. And basically the only reason we found out about it is because it's the president. Was this part of the Patriot Act?

No, it existed before the Patriot Act. No, it's 78. I mean, the world is a dangerous place, you know, and you create certain institutions that are necessary maybe to defend us against threats and inevitably they're abused by humans and you know, that's just the way of the world. I don't know, I'm no expert on it. Alright, Jamie, this was a pleasure. And, you know, that's just the way of the world. I'm no expert on it. All right.

Jamie, this was a pleasure. Hey, thanks for having me. I had a lot of fun. I hope you thought the conversation was not... Yeah, it was great. It's actually really good to get out of D.C., out of the bubble, out of the swamp, and, you know, talk to some normal people. Most guests think we're a bunch of dullards, but... No, not at all.

No, I... I really enjoyed it. I don't think that most guests think that. I think most guests are... I think most of the guests are dullards. I'm underwhelmed by many of the people we have on, their intellectual weight. They don't use words like reify.

Not by Jamie, no. I think that Noam more than holds his own against anybody we've had on. Except the guys I agree with. Whether he's entertaining or interesting is another question. We had Tyler Cowan on. Oh, very smart guy. Very smart guy. He's scary smart.

Super smart. He's scary smart. Which one was he, Tyler Cowan? He's an economist. The white guy? Yeah. We had so many. I don't remember. But like a lot of these really

super smart guys, he was easier to talk to and easier to disagree with, which is interesting. That's the hallmark of the truly intelligent, is not being insecure about their intelligence and being able to see other viewpoints, I would imagine.

Just like a guy that knows he can fight is not going to be all up in your face saying, oh, you want to make some of it? That's why I don't do that. But it's true. When you don't know what you're talking about, you fall back on the labels. You get defensive. And I think you see that a lot. All right. I was going to make some allusion to my

marriage but i'm gonna let that go okay good night everybody