The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Embracing Elderhood with Dr. Louise Aronson

Episode Date: August 11, 2023

Noam Dworman and Dan Naturman are joined by Dr. Louise Aronson, returning guest, psychiatrist Dr. Larry Durlofsky and comic, Maddie Wiener.  Dr. Aronson is a leading geriatrician, writer, educator, professor of medicine at UCSF and the author of the New York Times bestseller and Pulitzer Prize finalist, Elderhood: Redefining Aging, Transforming Medicine, and Reimagining Life. Maddie Wiener was selected as a New Face at the 2021 Just for Laughs Festival, and recently taped a stand up set for Comedy Central. She has also appeared on You Up w/ Nikki Glaser on Comedy Central's Sirius XM channel, and PAUSE with Sam Jay on HBO.

This is Live from the Table, the official podcast of the world-famous comedy cellar coming at you on Sirius XM 99 Raw Dog. And wherever podcasts are available. This is Dan Natterman. I'm joined in studio with Maddie Wiener. Hello, thank you for having me. She's a comedian and she is, yeah, she's a comedian. And she's in studio. But nobody else is in studio because Noam's in Wells, Maine.

It is summer home in the Kennebunkport area. Not my summer home. I'm renting a space for two weeks. Well, be that as it may, he's in Maine. And Periel is in her... Summer home. Annual August getaway in Bat Yam, Israel, I believe it is. No, I'm not in Bat Yam.

Jesus Christ. She wouldn't be caught dead in Bat Yam, Israel, I believe it is. No, I'm not in Bat Yam. Jesus Christ. She wouldn't be caught dead in Bat Yam. People that are Israeli apparently look down on Bat Yam. I mean, it's like being in Staten Island. Or like the Jersey Shore. My mother-in-law lives in Staten Island. Okay, that's fine. But you're not going vacationing there, are you?

Bat Yam is nice. It's like south of Tel Aviv. It's nice. Anyway, let's not get bogged down in Israeli geography. We have a, who's coming on? Lenny Aronson will be joining us in a bit.

But before that. False. So Louise, Professor Louise Aronson. And hi, Maddie. Nice to see you. Dan, are you an imbecile? So listen, I have a sentimental attachment to Bat Yam

because when I was in college, I spent a semester in Israel and I got offered a job in the hotel, the Marino Hotel in Bat Yam, to play, they were going to put me for the whole summer as a guitarist. And it was with my, like, Simon and Garfunkel guy with me. And he was homesick, so we didn't take the gig but anyway go ahead

how have you never told me that first of all Maddie I don't know if you're aware the other night they did were you involved with the Regal Theatre thing no but I heard about it well the other night they did what they did is they sort of simulcast or whatever the word would be

a comedy cellar show to 48 theaters at the Regal Theater chain across the country. And I want to I'm wondering how it went. Well, Dan, you might have cleared this for me before we get on the air. I don't know how it went, because first of all, it definitely wasn't 48 theaters because the one in the Ro under Rochelle had something crash and the one here in not in Maine but just south of here

in New Hampshire that I had planned my whole trip around cancelled the show because they wanted to make more room for Barbie and Oppenheimer so I actually don't know how it went but I heard that where some people I know saw it

in New York it was very good but I don't think it was a big draw around the country some people on my team would like to say that's because of Barbie and Oppenheimer

but I think it may not be that I think it may just not be a an idea that either is a good idea or it may take a while to actually catch on okay so it's not it's not for sure that you're gonna do another round or that that's not for sure um you know that's a good question so so this is the first time since I started out in show business, as it were, like in the Cafe Wad. It's the first time I ever actually took a loss on any. Now, this wasn't my idea. I'm not trying to run anybody.

It wasn't my idea. So I can rationalize it to myself. But it's the first time anything I did lost money. And it's, uh, it's, uh, it bothers me.

The money is not a lot of money. The money is not what's bothering me. I don't love that, but it's really, it's really honestly, sincerely not what's bothering me. It's just that I found myself doing this when I, you know,

I don't know. I kind of thought coming and didn't get out of the way. My phone's saying, you know, I try to, I'm very frank, Dan. I probably shouldn't be so frank on these shows and stuff like that. But that's the way I feel about it. It's like, it didn't, it wasn't, it didn't go like it should have. All right. Well, you know, every great businessman, you know, has some losses. So you got it out of the way.

And anyway, so we won't discuss it further, I suppose. I don't mind. Other than the fact that, you know, I'll be happy to do the next one. I don't know what your criteria are for who gets on the show. Oh, as he booked the show. It wasn't about the show. The show was actually quite good as far as I could tell. And people in the theater were laughing.

There's a question about whether or not since everybody has unlimited access to comedy all the time on their phones, on their TVs, on YouTube, it's just like whether or not people want to pay for anything, let alone go to the movie theater.

I don't know the answer to that. I think maybe it would be better to have like a midnight or 11 o'clock Saturday night nasty show in movie theaters, like just really filthy comedy. Maddie, can you bring the nasty if needs be? I would. That's my favorite thing in the world. I'm excited to be here.

I just moved to New York. I actually broke up with my boyfriend to move cities. But no, my friends tried to like talk me out of it. They're like, this is a bad move. I had a friend who was like, she was like, I'm in a long distance relationship. You should try it. It's awesome.

And I was like, I thought you were in an open relationship. And she was like, yeah, we're open and long distance. And I was like, oh, so you know a guy, that's cool. That's fun that you've got like a little pal, but I'm sorry if the only rules are you never see him and you never fuck him, like I'm dating your boyfriend too. That's not an exclusive club at all. I also made the mistake after the breakup

of like trying to go to guy friends for advice. And it was not, it did not translate. Every single one of them was like, you know what you gotta do? You gotta get out there. You just gotta like go fuck somebody. And I was like, yeah, that's not how it, like I'm a woman.

We don't, you don't get to, you don't go. You just kind of like get fucked. It's really not, it's not a comeback move. Like, like I've never wiped cum off my tits and been like, I can do anything. That is not the vibe at all. I would describe it as contemplative. That's more accurate. It would be cool if that like sort of paved the the way for people releasing specials in theaters again

and having premieres. That would be kind of incredible to see that happen in stand-up. Yeah, so the conversation I had with the guys afterwards, I said, well, now we have a pipeline into movie theaters. The question is, did we present what's best at that? And one of the things, Zach, what you said, I said, maybe we should do some specials like you

know premiere and movie theaters especially some people with the name they can get some kind of buzz one one night only and then they can still release it into you know streaming or whatever it is just like the movies are then released to streaming and there's a lot of people with names that would be able to draw and the economics are i mean they could actually make a lot of money but even if they didn't make any money it's still kind of cool and there's not much there's not much loss because you can't record it you can't you know it really is one and done so live streaming in the movies new specials or like i said i always think there's a market for dirty stuff. In Montreal, at the Just for Laughs Festival, the nasty show is always like 10 times a hotter ticket than any other show.

It's just everybody likes that stuff. Esty put me on the 10 p.m. What's that called? The uncensored show? I don't know. Yeah. She calls it like late night uncensored. It was last Tuesday, I think, or a few Tuesdays ago.

You don't have any dirty jokes. I do, but I'm not nasty per se. I have some nasty stuff, but also every show is uncensored. Yeah. Well, this is supposed to supposed to emphasize. Right. The episode of the nasty. Well, I was as nasty as I could be. You know, I don't get that nasty. Maddie, you are a recent comedy seller person.

Yeah, like three weeks in, I think I'm definitely a baby here. Yes. As he's raving about you. Oh, really? Yeah. That's so cool. Are you doing you emceeing or doing regular spots? No, it's just been spots. Yeah. All right. No. Are there are there people that are passed just to emcee or you know, is that there is a distinction you mean the Ray Allen spot

well whatever I mean are there people that you wouldn't you know if they said yeah I don't feel like I'm seeing anymore I want to do regular spots and you would be like I don't know no I think all the MCs do regular spots we have we have had Ray doesn't put in regular spots but he's the only one I think who has no never does a regular spot We have had. Ray doesn't put in regular spots.

But he's the only one I think who has no, never does a regular spot. He enjoys them. Actually, I don't know if Artie used to do regular spots. Has he done them lately? I don't know. Maddie, Wiener's actually a name that's in my family. My father's

sister married a Wiener. Really? Also Jewish? That's correct. Yeah, a lot of people don't realize it's a Jewish name. And to me, I'm like, that's like, well, are there any way that I'm doing? Are there any winners that aren't Jewish? That's the was the Meyer Wiener family, Jewish, probably. I mean, they're in the Frankfurter business, but maybe maybe not. The Antimony Wiener what was that guy

now have you now have you ever thought of because it is an odd name yeah uh changing it yeah i had especially when i was a kid and then i think i got some like pushback from family of like it's your heritage and blah blah blah and now i think it's like all right maybe a little too late to change it like i've been in the world being this person. And for comedy, it's for comedy. It works. It works. But the one time. But do you think Jon Stewart Leibowitz had he just been had he been had he kept Leibowitz?

Do you think he would have gotten as far? Yeah. Like, would it help or hurt? I'm going to go so far as to say it would have. I don't think he would have gone as far. I think somebody would have probably told him to lose the lebowitz but he was like a sexy guy he was sort of selling that and i just don't know if john lebowitz gets the daily show i just don't know i'm not sure i i i think there's reason to believe that he would not john stewart's a little easier to say i think i think that the suits over at Comedy Central would

have, or the suits even prior to Comedy Central, but he had to, in order for him to get the Comedy Central show, he had to already be kind of in the running. He had to be sort of in the mix, and he'd already done some shows, and I don't know that he would have gotten those shows. I think second only to Woody Allen, Dan leads the world in like this Jewish

neuroticism that he perseverates on these issues. He's asked this question a thousand times. I don't think I've asked this particular question a thousand times. Yes, this particular question. We've talked about whether Jon Stewart was so talented that his success was inevitable. Watch this, Maddie.

What's Woody Allen's real name? Alan Konigsberg. What's Jon Stewart's real name? Jon Lebowitz. Go through them all. Go through them all. Come on. What all? Stewart's real name? Go to the mall. Go to the mall. Come on. What all? I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I know Ralph Lauren. Ralph Lauren. That's Ralph Lifshitz. Oh, and that absolutely had to be changed because he's in fashion. Who's the guy? Ant-Man. Did he change his name?

Because he's Jewish. Paul Rudd. Paul Rudd. I don't think he did. But but I'll tell you one thing. Paul Rudd. Paul Rudd. I don't think he did. But I'll tell you one thing. Andrew Silverstein ain't fucking doing that act with that name.

Dan, tell the one of the rest of the Jewish names you know, the original names. Come on, you know more. I don't know all of them. I mean, Tony Curtis. Jonah Hill. Tony Curtis is, yeah, Tony Curtis. I forgot something Schwartz. Jonah Hill. Tony Curtis is, yeah, Tony Curtis, I forgot. Something Schwartz.

Jonah Hill, I don't. Bernie Schwartz. Bernie Schwartz. Jonah Hill's not Jonah Hill? No. Well, you'll agree with me that Dice had to change his name. What's Andrew Dice's play's name? Andrew Silverstein.

There's no way Andrew Silverstein comes out and goes, Hey, I was fucking the day. That just not cool. Remember, Ariel, he just rattled them off. He knows like 15 of them. In any case, you should make trading cards like baseball cards. In any case, John. Oh, that's so good.

What was Lenny Bruce's real name? I don't know. I don't know very little about Lenny Bruce. We're here, by the way, just by way of introduction, Larry Dolofsky sitting in. Maybe he'll chime in. Maybe he won't. He looks just like Jerry. Weeks ago, he's a he's a psychiatrist and a friend of the shows. I just watched. I just watched.

Oh, no way. And thumbs down, thumbs up from a. Can I get a diagnosis like was it? Excellent. Good stuff. I think Maddie Weiner is a fine name for somebody that's selling fun and laughter. Yeah, I have a little bit of like a bumbling fat man vibe on stage. I think that's funny. So I think the name it's good. I'll keep it.

And now that I'm talking, I think Jon Stewart was being considered for like The Tonight Show or one of those late night things. But his Judaism got in the way of that. Well, I don't know. That may or may not be. But I'm just discussing the last name. And I do think it would have I do think it would have hindered them. I think he was smart enough to know that.

And I, you know, especially with what he was selling, which was sort of a sexy, cool guy. But but no one may or may not agree. Anyway, Robbie Robertson, by the way, just died. No, I don't know if you heard the news. Oh, I may or may not agree. Anyway, Robbie Robertson, by the way, just died. No, I don't know if you heard the news. Oh, I didn't hear that. Yeah. Yeah. For 80 years. Do you know who he is? Maddie? It could be a generation. I might not. He's the lead singer of the

band. You know, the band, the band. I mean, it's a band that's called the band. Oh, I was like, I'm so out of it. He was a very compelling figure in the movie The Last Waltz, this Scorsese thing. Anyway, that's sad that he died. He was a great guitar player. And Randy Meisner

died a couple of weeks ago. And Randy got almost nothing on social media compared to Sinead O'Connor and Pee Wee Herman. Well, because Randy Meisner was a supporting character. Right. But yes, he was. Who's heard

of Randy Meisner? Is that Jewish by the way? No, he's not. I mean, it could be, but he's not. I think the Meisner technique guy was Jewish. The one who, the acting coach Sanford. Anyway, but I mean, I mean, Sinead O'Connor was a very important pop figure.

And who was the other person you said died? Pee-wee. Pee-wee Herman. Pee-wee Herman. Paul Rubin. There's another Jewish name. He was fantastic. What a talent.

Yes, but so was Randy Meisner. Have you heard Take It to the Limit? Have you listened to Take It to the Limit? Did he write that or just saying he he well all the eagle songs i believe they credit all of them no i'm pretty sure if you look at who they credit but i think randy i think randy was the lead writer in that sign he certainly sang it and he hit those high notes at the end yeah he was like yeah but you know what the high note guy is always it's like a weird it's a weird position in those bands. I'm looking it up.

So when is our guest coming? Well, first of all... 545. She'll be here when she's here, but we have... It's 546 now. No, I'm... She's a little tired. You can tell her.

We haven't finished getting to know Maddie. Do you even know Maddie? Have you met Maddie? No, I've only tell her. We haven't finished getting to know Maddie. Do you even know Maddie? Have you met Maddie, Noam? No, I've only seen her. Have we met? Were we introduced? No, I don't think we've met in person. Noam doesn't really do a meet

and greet with the new comics. Esty's 99.99%. The truth is, half the time, a new comic will be there, and Liz and Estee won't even introduce me, to be honest. And then it's Walker for me, but of course I want to meet everybody. The guest today, by the way, Matt, is she here?

I heard a bing bing. Yeah, she's here. We can let her in. Where's Larry? I want to see Larry. Larry's here, but... This was a guest that Larry suggested, and I don't know if it's a great fit for Maddie because Maddie's young and this is a guest that is like a geriatrician. Right on.

But, you know, you have an old soul. Oh, thanks. I didn't know who Robbie Roberts is. But Louise Aronson, MD, MFA, which I guess is Master of Fine Arts. Yes. Is a leading geriatrician, MD, MFA, which I guess is Master of Fine Arts. Yes. Is a leading geriatrician, as I just mentioned, writer, educator, professor of medicine at University of California, San Francisco, and author of The Pulitzer Prize finalist, Elderhood, Redefining Aging, Transforming Medicine and Reimagining Life.

Welcome, Louise, to our show. We're here with your friend, Larry Dulofsky. Is he your friend or is he a fan? No, I'm a fan. I just emailed her. We email a little bit. So we're here with myself, Maddie Wiener,

Noam Dorman, and Periel Ashenbrand. So the gang is all here. Hi, everyone. This is a very Jewish podcast. Clearly. It just happened. I mean, Rogan does what he does and we do what we do. But it just happens to turn out that way that we run heavily Jewish. But we'll be discussing non, you know, ecumenical subjects.

Anyhow, by the way, I just became a great uncle, speaking of aging, and that sort of hit home. Oh, congratulations. Yeah, but it hit home because it's another generation and it's my niece's daughter. Baruch Hashem. Yeah, and you know, I'll probably... Take it easy, Clary, please. I'll probably see

one more generation after her, but that's about it. All right. You want to ask some questions to the guests, Dan? Well, I thought maybe we could get started. About my great niece and why I should rejoice instead of lamenting, you know, another generation arriving. Well, I think it's generally bad practice to tell someone how to feel. So I wasn't going to go there. Well, my lived experience, unlike other people, my lived experience is tenuous and deserves to be criticized.

But I've only known you for three minutes, so I couldn't know that. No, I mean, I hear like people talk about their lived experience. Your lived experience, you know, oftentimes is bad. People say, well, don't tell Jews what anti-Semitism is. Well, sometimes Jews go overboard and need to be told. Cool it. You know, fucking Jamie Foxx has no history of anti-Semitism. Let it go.

But people say, oh, you don't tell Jews what anti-Semitism is. Yeah, you should tell them when they're wrong i think anyhow louise are you wrong are you just having an opinion i mean i think you know i'm not saying anybody should be able to criticize anything and i hate when people say you have no right to criticize my lived experience or no man should be able to tell a woman that her feelings are invalid well man should be able to express a woman that her feelings are invalid. Well, man should be able to express his opinion. And if his opinion is ridiculous, tell him so. But, you know. Yeah, agreed. Well, I think there's a difference between criticism and commentary. But I think, you know, we all are ambivalent about growing older, right? Because it's considered really

negative in our society. And at the same time, the alternative is to die young, and that's hugely unattractive. So, you know, it kind of puts us all in this spot. So my thought is, like, it's actually what we want to do, although we'd like to do it in a certain way, you know, where do we sign up for that? But I also feel like our prejudices make it worse. They're sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Like they make the extremes, you know, the process of aging and then certainly the extremes of old age much harder and scarier than they need to be. And, you know, the good news, the bad news there is that it's harder and scarier than it needs to be. And the good news is we could do something about it with a little will, which might be mounting now

as boomers age. They're, you know, not as silent as the silent generation, not as stoic as the great generation. And I think that's going to do some good things for the world. What can we do about it? What can we do about it? Well, so for most age groups, we talk about the good and the bad. But for older people, we tend to only talk about the bad. And I'm not saying there aren't some bad things, you know, can I run the way I used to run even 10 years ago? Oh, and is that disappointing? Yes. You know, there are some things that that that are negative about it. But there's so many good things such as most people are happy.

Most people have a much clearer sense of their priorities and how they want to spend their time. And this has been shown across countries and across income and racial groups. Now, if you're in a very poor country, is your general level of happiness lower than in a richer country? Of course, you know, so the data holds there. But there are some really nice things about this stage of life. But in contrast to parts of childhood and adulthood, with elderhood, we just kind of talk about the negatives. And then we also don't design a society that acknowledges the differences of age for good and ill, right? So then you go somewhere, you can't hear anything. So you stop going there. So then they say, oh, older people don't come here.

You know, it becomes self-fulfilling. Or you go to a park and there's really cool playgrounds for kids. And, you know, there's like a place for pickup basketball and something else. And then, you know, for old people and, you know, what is old depends a little bit on where you're sitting at that moment. But, you know, there's benches. You know, and benches are great for all of us. But that's, you know, blatant discrimination there. And we're starting to change that. They're starting to be really cool things. What should there be? Shuffleboard?

No, but so you're also lumping all of old into the extremes. So one of the reasons I wanted to really get the term elderhood out there is when we say childhood, we don't just mean like little babies. We're talking babies through, you know, depending on your perspective, at least the teens. But some people seem to stay in, you know, young for a little longer. But when we talk about old age, we just talk about the extreme. So I wanted elderhood to be to represent the full diversity of older people. So, you know, choose your, your moment, 60, 65, 70, and it probably depends on the person up. And there's as much variety between that 65 year old and 105 year old as there is between a newborn and an 18

year old, or between a 20 year old and a 60 year old. So why do we, you know, we say shuffleboard or we say benches, but there's actually decades before that in which people are physiologically old and have different social and personal priorities. And so, you know, like pickleball was invented for that, but now everybody's playing pickleball. So that's going. But there are some very cool parks, mostly in affluent neighborhoods, where there are actually these sort of sport complex things that help you work on your balance and really fun games and things that sports that people can play without risking injury. Because is the risk of injury? You know, like pick up basketball, you know, and some 20 year old budget. Tennis is a good sport for people in this range.

Yeah. I'm most worried about, if I could just, one quick second, if I might, is I'm worried about if I get assaulted, the headline will read, elderly man assaulted. Now, what age does that sound like? Well, it shouldn't now because you're not elderly, but we also don't have language, right? I've seen 60-year-olds called elderly in the headlines.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And the other weird thing is that people who are like 68 will call the 60 year old elderly but they don't think of it for themselves so we need to start like living our tunes and being more consistent like okay i'm an older adult now but you know i mean i'm one of the few women who doesn't dye my hair so i look older older than I am. But but I'm not old. I have a mother who's 30 years older than I am. Now she's straight up old, you know, like that's elderly. I want to say I have no ambivalence about getting older. I hate it.

I find it unacceptable. I'm 61. I feel basically the same. I wonder sometimes if I woke up just like this when I was 25, would I notice that I was different? I don't really think so. Maybe I would a little bit, but I don't feel run down. I'm energetic. I can keep up. I'm feeling great. The only thing is I don't remember names as well as I used to, and I find that very, very upsetting. But the idea of getting older, I find nothing does not make me happy at all. I have young kids.

I dread not seeing them when they're older. I know the impending health issues are going to come, and every day I'm worried about it. And, you know, and it's funny to say about they should be nice to old people there used to be a thing which like older men midlife crisis would do to make themselves feel better and that was what they would they would find a young girlfriend but now society should be going on for millennia but now society society has taken that away from them like that's frowned upon now like and that really works, I believe. But anyway, so pickleball is a poor substitute. And you don't have to play pickleball. If you feel the way you felt 40 years ago, then there's nothing wrong with being 61, right? Yeah, I do. I know that the end is near. And if not the end and the end of feeling like I did now, I already have a high percentage of people my age who have they take I don't take any medications.

They take pills. They have knee problems. They've had problems. They've had surgeries. I'm not going to it's not going to pass over me forever. You know, I know it. But as a society, we could be doing so much more. So instead of throwing pills at people, imagine if your health insurance covered appropriate exercise, you know, which we know is like the best medicine for almost everything. But people don't have access to it or they don't believe it makes a difference. Now, is it going to keep you from growing old and dying? Hell no. But it's going to make you growing old a lot better for a lot longer. Why do you need money for it? Can't you just do? old and dying? Hell no. But it's going to make your growing old a lot better for a lot longer. Why do you need money for it? Can't you just do, I mean, from what I've read,

and I also want to ask you something else, but when I read just calisthenics and things like this are more than effective. That can help, but people don't know and believe it. And some people need coaching and assistance to do this. We're maybe more privileged people who grow up with access to this information, etc. And we believe in our own agency. So maybe we do those things. But a lot of people really don't. And that's part of the messaging and the cultural overlay, you know, and you really can delay a lot of the things we dread. And you know, will they happen eventually? Yeah, but, you know, do the right things. And with a little luck, and you know, you could have another 20, 30 good years. Who knows?

I don't know your family history either. Are you keeping up with the progress of these guys? Like what's his name? Brian Johnson, who was doing plasma transplants with his son and he's actually throwing money at every single harebrained idea out there that might in some way

reverse aging. And then this guy, Peter Attia, has a new book out now where he really goes deep dive into longevity and health span as opposed to lifespan.

These are... What's your take on all these efforts? I think some of, you know, there have actually been similar efforts since, you know, there's been the written word, you know, go back to ancient Mesopotamia,

the Greeks, et cetera. But... Who was the explorer? Was it Cortes was looking for the fountain of youth? No, Juan Ponce de Leon, I thought. Juan Ponce de Leon, you're right. You're right, you're right.

So yeah, this is going on forever. Do I think modern science has a better chance of hitting some of these things? Yes. But then you have to think about the social and environmental implications. This is largely hyper-privileged white men trying not to die and getting very very very rich off other people's fear of aging and dying now is that legit isn't my people yeah exactly but you know i think one can ask some really important ethical and environmental questions about that and it's not going to get you know frankly it's not going to get figured out in time for us. So yeah, okay, invest some of that.

But if we invested that same amount of money, like billions and trillions in other things, like getting people proper food and exercise and changing the ageism that is embedded in every aspect of our culture, we would reap the benefits. It would be much faster. I want to say, Dan, let me tell you one thing, and then I'll shut up, because this is interesting to me, because I feel like this overlay, and we see it almost on every subject, the whiteness, the privilege, whatever it is, it's so burdensome, and it's almost become, you know, like just a But, and I think this is valid. If I look back at

other things, the first, I had a cell phone, I guess in the late 80s, whatever it was, and I was the only one who had it. I was a hyperprivileged white guy with a cell phone, but somebody, and that's who got them at first, although I wasn't even wealthy at the time at all, but I was one of the first people to get it. And now everybody has a cell phone. I remember my father somebody and that's who got them at first although i wasn't even wealthy at the time at all but i i was one of the first people to get it and now everybody has a cell phone i remember my father was the first guy to have a calculator and a digital watch and he and and and the well-to-do white guys would be the first people to have everything everything and anything and then through the wonders of you know progress, in very short time, they become affordable and ubiquitous to all.

And to worry about the fact that the wealthy, it's not the white, white really shouldn't bother you, but that the wealthy, because who cares what color they are, that the wealthy have access to things before the less wealthy. And then to contemplate maybe stopping it because of that will foreclose what we know is inevitable, which has got to start somewhere. And then eventually the price drops drastically and everybody gets it. I imagine many medicines, I mean, even Viagra, like everything that's become available to everybody at one time was boutique and expensive and privileged. I don't see why that's something to beat ourselves up about. It can't be any other way. I guess my problem with it, I mean, it could be any other way. It can't.

No, it can't. Sexism and racism. It could be if everybody had equal opportunities. It can't. But it's not going to be. No, but it can't be any other way because the cost of to build a cell phone initially has to

be expensive. It can't be immediately cheap and distributed to the planet Earth. No, I'm not saying that. The income part, yeah, has to be. But who has the... Anyway, this is a whole other conversation from aging, but I guess I would say we know lots of things that could help pretty much

everybody age better. And instead of investing in those things, we're investing billions and trillions. So much more money in these outlier things. Right. And that's because people find those things interesting or because of self interest or whatever. But if you were really picking what to do for the greater good, you would not pick that. What would you pick? Oh, you would pick like universal exercise and access to good food and a better sense of who you are, like getting people over age 60 to have a clear sense of purpose, which helps.

Stopping things that are leading to greater of purpose, which helps, you know, stopping things that are leading to greater social isolation, which leads to horrible morbidity and mortality. There are so many things in there. There are even programs once you reach that phase of frailty, you know, and I agree with Atiyah that like, if we could expand the health span, that's just good for everyone, right? And of course, some people are going to do that first. And if they're willing to, you know, try these things out,, some people are going to do that first. And if they're willing to, you know, try these things out, terrific. That's helpful to everyone. I agree. Whether whether it'll, you know, it'll come true in our lifetimes. I'm not sure. Some of the things work, some don't. But we have a lot of proven programs that help people age well, and we do not pick

them up. Instead, we invest in little molecules that people can take that will cost a fortune and won't help most of us in our lifetimes. And maybe that's just the way progress is, but I don't think it's the ethical approach. Yeah. First of all, it's a pleasure meeting you. Yeah, you too. I just wanted to touch back on, Noam, your ongoing fear and upset about aging. And one of the things that was really significant for me in reading your book and in the definition of the term elderhood and childhood, adulthood, elderhood is the significant portion of time in our lives that elderhood involves. And that by using resources in a positive way, we can make that significant portion

better. And in terms of childhood, which I guess goes to adolescence. I, I'm an eye for one. I don't know other people's experiences. I hated high school. It was horrible. It was torture. It was a torturous period for me. It's absolutely horrible. Mine was horrible too, but it was the best years of my life. Okay. I'd so much rather be in my sixties than my teens. It was the best of times and the worst of times. I'd so much rather be in my 60s than in my teens. No, I love that.

It was the best of times in the worst of times. My mom was a great high school. Larry, make his point. Larry's there now. Speaking of physical ills, you know, I had acne and I was like, you know, geek. I mean, things were sprouting all over the place. And my coordination was absolutely horrible. So there are absolutely periods of those other two hoods that I found to be really, really negative. But one of the things that the book was so meaningful for me was pointing out the areas in which elderhood can be a positive part of your life. And it's going to happen. And it's a big chunk. I've never thought of it as such a long chunk. I want to loop Maddie in because she's been sitting patiently. And I don't know if you find this interesting.

No, I find it fascinating. Well, you're 30. I'm 24, 24. You know, holy cow. But it's interesting what you were saying about like a sense of purpose, because like I feel like stand up has changed the way that I think about aging, because like as a woman, I think you're very you're taught to be very scared of aging because you're like, well, your core value to the world is your sex appeal. And you're going to, quote unquote, lose that as you age. But with stand up, it's like I can't wait to be in my 50s. I will have been doing it 30 plus years. Like my favorite thing will. It's something that grows as you age instead of like declining. So it's kind of made me like look at those years of my life differently than I think I would if I were a woman in a different field. I think I think you should look forward to the future, but never wish time to pass. It's a good general rule. It's good to know that something might be better. It's going to build. It's not just going to be like... And women, after menopause, on the one hand, you can still be sexy. Is it the same as being the new bio 20, whatever you're old? Of

course not. It's different. But there but there's also like people describe in huge numbers, and in many studies, a relief that you can only get to a certain place, and not having to worry about that, you know, it's just worrying about who you are, how you feel what you can do is actually hugely liberating for many women. So they sort of love the post menopausal phase once the horror's in shock. You know, like, I don't want to pretend that's a lot of fun either, but then there is this good part, right? So it's not all one or the other. Do we find that women, that aging is more difficult for them

because of what Maddie was saying? Because physical beauty is, is, is, is so important in our society, in every society and maybe my nature. I don't know. I definitely, you know, so our women, do they have more difficult time coping with aging than men for that reason? Yeah. Well, there's a lot of pressure, you know, with the hair dye, you know, and for the book, I actually stopped dying my hair and it's hard every day. Right. Cause you're in rooms and you look old, you know, and for the book, I actually stopped dyeing my hair and it's hard every day, right? Cause you're in rooms and you look old, you know, you know, everybody's dying

and you look older than they do. And everything tells you everything about our culture says that's bad. So it's tough, but you know, there's a bunch of people trying to do a revolution. So, so anyway, so you take it. You have very good skin. I mean, we are communicating via Zoom, but in the years I can tell, yeah, I wouldn't- Yeah, I mean, I'm fit and healthy. Classifying who's old just because of your hair color. Well, you also, in the book, you point out- Well, they always want to help me out at the grocery store.

I'm like, really? God, you see my muscles. Anyway. In the book, you point out that a lot of these commercial things are defined as being anti-aging. And that in and of itself defines aging. It's sort of like anti-cancer. It's this part. Well, a lot of things are like if they're good, they're called youthful, right?

So feel young again. Instead of like feel good. Feel good at 60. Feel good at 70. feel good at 80, which is what we all want. Because, you know, you can say 50 is the new 30. But there is anybody who has lived to be 50 knows that is just a crock. Right. It's different. But some things are better. Right. And we just don't let ourselves enjoy them. And that ticking clock. yeah, you know, you wouldn't necessarily sign up

for it. But it works in life much as it works in a movie or in a novel, which is that as the end gets closer, the people who are happiest use that knowledge to make better decisions. So the choices they make are more consistent with their values with what's more meaningful. And most people have already raised their kids. So that sandwich pressure of career, children, maybe aging parents is gone. And there's this time where like, I could kind of do anything. And you can be ambitious in different ways. People who made money do art. People who did art decide to become entrepreneurs.

Like it's a time to reinvent yourself. We have these like extra 20 or 30 years. What are we going to do with them to become entrepreneurs? It's a time to reinvent yourself. We have these extra 20 or 30 years. What are we going to do with them to have fun? Matty is 24. I want to know briefly. I just want to pour cold water on this whole Pollyannish conversation and say

that there's nothing better in my life about being 61. It's not tremendously worse. it's not tremendously worse. It's not tremendously worse. I'm not, but I don't, I can't think of one thing. I said, well, thank God I'm not 40 again. I mean, yeah, maybe. Yeah. I mean, when I was, when I was 16, 17, I might've been an idiot and maybe in my late twenties, I, I did well,

but I, but I was, uh, impetuous and maybe I would like to have some of the wisdom But I'm telling you, 35 to 45 This is a fantastic But not everybody is a nightclub owner Not everybody is on stage Playing guitar Is there an asterisk on your book? Except for

Exactly Yeah, yeah, yeah Some copies, but don't be fooled. But what I would say is that you're actually doing yourself a disservice. So in the first place, you're at the very beginning of elderhood, but there's a woman at Yale called Becca Levy. Walk that off. Who's done... No, no, no. It's good to be a baby elder, right? So you've got the whole thing ahead of you. It depends a bit. But Becca Levy has done decades of research, and there are tons of others, too.

She's just the most well-known. And attitudes about aging actually determine how you age. So people who have negative attitudes like yours will get Alzheimer's earlier. And that's in your cerebral spinal fluid. You have the heart attack seven years earlier, right? And you're less happy. So you, you know, we're not being, I'm not saying it's all good, but you're saying it's all bad. And I'm saying that's not true.

And it may be lethal to you. Now you just supercharged it. Yeah. But that just, I mean, how do you, if you're a person that's negative by nature, telling them being negative is going to kill you, I don't think that's going to help. Hold on. I'm not negative by nature. This is the thing. What I'm not able to do, in my opinion, is convince myself to put on this happy face on something and work myself into a kind of what I consider to be like a false sense of euphoria or optimism, whatever. I'm not negative and I'm not pessimistic. I'm just saying

that there's nothing that I prefer about being older and I have trouble. Yeah, but this is better. I'm wiser. I'm not able to talk myself into that. It doesn't have to be better. It might just be fine. If I put together everything Noam said, my conclusion is he hates his kids. No, I love my kids. Because you say your life's not better, yet you have kids now, and they're young kids. You didn't have kids when you were 40 i get it i get a deep a deep deep satisfaction as a parent that i never had when i wasn't a parent but of course i'm an

old parent that's not that's not an a that's not related to particular stage of aging as a matter of fact i might even be less psychologically healthy now if my kids, if I was an empty nester and, and looking at what I'm at least I actually do really, really, really truly have something to get up for every day that occupied much more than like thousand to one, the business as like,

just, I worry about my kids and every little thing about them. And that actually does give me something to live for. And that's, that's nice. But yeah, but that's, but again, that's not about age something to live for. And that's, that's nice. But yeah, but that's, but again,

that's not about age, but it's, but it's, that's real, but that's still not better than chasing booty when you were 40. No, it is better, but,

but it is better. It is better. Matt, Maddie, please. Well, what were you saying earlier? Perspective of the younger generation.

Well, like the, the whole debate that we were having of like, not to get it back to the privilege aspect of it but just the thing of like like the the length of life versus versus the depth of life if that's a way to put it like i was reading this um have you read uh how to do nothing by jenny odell it's called how to do nothing resisting the attention economy and she has this really really interesting quote where she's talking about how you know if if that, you know, driving force of people trying to live forever is to have like infinite moments in your life. She's like, well, if you really pay attention and are present,

you can have like infinite moments in an hour, in a minute. Like essentially, you can make your life feel infinite on the on the Y axis instead of the x-axis if that makes sense like can you explain the axis to perry alfred my friend had this like this app on his phone that showed him like you use instagram for a week and then at the end of it it tells you how many years of your life you'll spend on instagram if you keep going at it the same way and it was going to be like he's also in his 20s and it was going to be like 18 years of his life was going to be spent looking at Instagram before he died. And it's like, yeah, you could try to tack on another 20 at the end,

or you could fix what you're doing now and get another 20 years of life in the life you already have, if that makes sense. I guess you could also take less naps, maybe. No, because that's something that could add a couple, tack a couple years of living on i suppose but it brings on bad sleep brings on alzheimer's but it just seems interesting to aging i said less napping i didn't say cut your sleep well it's related but if you don't look at

those like whatever last 20 years of your life as lost time but as like another 20 years i don't know it's just like an interesting way to look at it as like, I felt like that book kind of tied into what you're talking about. Yeah. And you're so right. You know, we now live 20, 30, 40, depending on where you live and who you are, years longer than we did, you know, that people did in the US a century ago. So the question is, what are you going to do with those years? Some people are having kids, you know, some people are having different careers. Some people are just enjoying life without the usual stressors. I mean, what I find a lot of people do as they move into those years is they do all the things that my friends and colleagues are always complaining they don't have time for but make them happiest. You know, so that makes people happy. Yeah, we have a doorbell going off but maddie yeah go ahead

do you think that people or like have you found that when people become more comfortable with aging they also become more comfortable with the idea of death oh that's such a good question um sometimes yes sometimes no and sometimes people are more comfortable with death um in medicine that's certainly true a lot of people, not a lot of people, but relatively more people have gone into sort of hospice and palliative care than into geriatrics, because there are things about aging that I think people find more scary. It's also long, it's really varied. Whereas death, if you can help someone do it well, it's this, it's totally crass, but it is kind of like a checkbox. Like, oh, this thing had to happen.

It wasn't a good thing, but I made it happen well, and so I feel good. You know, it's just cleaner and neater, and you have that sort of sooner gratification. So some people are more comfortable. But as they age, you know, I see huge variability. Some people are okay with death, particularly really old people. Like old people are like, do I want to die? No, but I'm in my 90s, so I wouldn't be surprised and I don't think it would be a tragedy.

So some of them have true wisdom and other people are scared out of their minds. To me, everything that's scary about death is associated with burial. Think about it. Rotting corpses, coffins, tombstonesstones cemeteries right all the horrible shit but see you're dead for that it's the shit that comes before that that scares me i don't want to be in pain or like lying in my own but i'm saying the cremation cremation you know uh seems okay

you know that's like you're not even dead you're just not there you're not rotting there's no tombstone yeah but if you're rotting and don't know you're not even dead. You're just not there. You're not rotting. There's no tombstone. But if you're rotting and don't know you're rotting, it's sort of like the tree in the forest. I know, but when I'm thinking about it, I'm saying what's daunting about it, you know, when you think of it. Anyway, Maddie, do you have these thoughts?

So you're at 24. I think it's called thanatophobia, right? Fear of death. Yeah. Yeah, I mean. You think you have a whole library about fanatophobia. I definitely have a very anxious. I think it's fanatophobia. I just pulled that out of my ass. Well, you know, you remember what's his name me. Tom Green was here at the Cellar.

And he's, I guess, a little bit north of my age. Or maybe he is my age. I don't know. But you remember Tom Green from the 90s. Do you remember him, Matt? He's a guy from the 90s. Anyway, he was a big, big star in the 90s. He sort of faded away a little bit. But now I guess he has a podcast that's very popular.

Anyway, he was on stage. He says, you know what? He said to a young person, he says, you know what? I don't have the fears that you have. I don't, I don't fear, you know, like dying young, not going to happen to me. I don't know. I think that some people have that attitude. I mean, once you, once you're, you know, once you're a certain age,

you're not going to die young anymore. So I don't know if that's helpful at all. Let me tell you. If you died now, wouldn't you feel like you died too young? You did not die young like Batty young, but it's still too soon. It's not, but it's not a horrific tragedy. I want to explain something.

It's too soon, but it's not a horrifying tragedy. Let me explain something to all of you, including Larry. Your correlation is not causation. This is what it is. Go ahead. Because I've seen this in person. Certain people have certain innate optimistic outlooks on life and certain people have certain innate pessimistic outlooks on life. And whatever stage of life they're in, that becomes the causation for it. So the people who are really

unhappy about getting old, they were unhappy about something else in their forties. They were unhappy about something else in their thirties, but happy about something else in their twenties. I known people, two of them, because I'm one of them who died and one who we know him, hot to the heart transplant. These were people who were for long periods of time were living with horrible, deadly diseases, you know, day to day. These people were happy. They were cheerful. They were friendly. You call them up. They would talk about the weather, meaning like, you know, they were like, you know, talking about their health all the time. How are you doing? I mean, just just amazing. And I used to think it was strength. Like, how do they get the strength to be that way? And then it occurred to me that's just the way they are.

And and I think that's so much of everything in life. And we learn this more and more. It's just about our innate dispositions. And my disposition is, you know, just just not great for this kind of thing. Studies over the lifetime do suggest from everything I've read that people fear death less when they're in their 70s and 80s than those same people yeah did in their in their 20s and 30s well okay then maybe i'm wrong i think i think you're right yeah i think you're right in that insofar as yeah certain people like hot tab and people that have amazing dispositions no matter what life throws at them yeah but i also think that people are more accepting of death as they age and no but don't you but don't you think that when you're put into

a position like hot tam that suddenly you appreciate things more that maybe somebody like you takes for granted and i don't mean you specifically necessarily. You'd be right if you meant me specifically. He has a disposition. I'm telling you, he has a disposition. I would kill for this disposition. We've all known people like that. Look at Dan.

You think if Dan was walking around with an LVAD, he would be somehow- What? With a what? Was that what he called an LVAD? A ventricular assistive device. Oh, yeah. Waiting for a transplant.

Worrying about the power going out in this building because... Who could live with this stress? Dan would be fit to be tied. Dan would be morose. He'd probably be funnier than ever, but he would not be positive about it. It's not in him to be

positive. It's just not. And I don't think- You're also suggesting that nobody can change ever. And yes, we do have an innate disposition and people can learn and grow. I don't believe they change really. I mean, I can't say nobody, but not a lot. When somebody actually changes, I mean, changes is an interesting word. Can they, through self-discipline, display difference? Or even feel. Yeah, I agree. You're still in it. Inside. Not everybody, but it takes a lot of work. Yeah. I have a question related to, oh, sorry. Madeline. And I think that change is easier in the negative direction. I think trauma, having something do something terrible to you,

this can change you in a way that you never come back to your better self. The opposite is much harder. If you adopt a pet that's been beaten, eventually maybe you can get them to be better. But it's way easier to to to create the scared pet and traumatize the rest of his life. That life is like that. So, guys, sorry, Maddie. Madeline, I was going to ask.

We were talking about like the different attitudes towards it. I'm curious if you found that people have different attitudes towards aging, depending on if their religious beliefs lead them to believe there's an afterlife like if they see it as a transitional phase you're killing it when you're last one okay these are the best questions we've got oh really i'm genuinely like really curious because like if you saw aging as like just the next step till forever then it doesn't seem like as big of a deal but if you see it as like the final encore that that's like a pretty big, that's a lot of pressure. Right. Yeah. That's that. Yeah. Another great question. And, um, yes and no. It's so interesting. People, a lot of people do find solace and thinking there's

something else, but that doesn't necessarily eliminate their fear of death because you don't really know what that other thing is. It's, it's a belief more than I like, Oh, I'm moving to, you know, Boston, you know, what Boston is, right? Then your gut is still like, we're disappearing. So sometimes you do that and you'll still see people panic. And then other people who kind of go the other way, they're scared. And then they kind of get closer and they realize like, huh, this would be worse, but I'm kind of still me. And, you know, especially, you know, we can't control everyone's pain, but a lot of people so they're getting good care and they're comfortable, or maybe they're having like these meaningful interactions with people. They're like, you know what? I can do this. So it actually moves in both directions. I think the further you are from it, the more reassuring the religion is

because you have this notion. But as you get closer, sometimes maybe it's, you know, it's that thing of who you are comes into play as well. And by the way, there is nothing after you die in case anyone doesn't know. That's not true.

Do you find that people who are terminally ill and have made peace with it, like does that, when the people around them, you know, I've heard stories of friends of friends who have a terminal illness and have really, you know, made peace with it in a way that perhaps is inconceivable to us. It does happen. I mean, does it happen to everyone? No, not at all. But sometimes it happens and it's really incredible.

And it doesn't mean the people around them aren't sad. And it doesn't mean they're thinking like, oh, yay, I'm dying. You know, it's not all butterflies and roses. But there is a degree to which the tension in the room, so I've been in a lot of rooms with a lot of people who are dying, goes way down. And there is just a peacefulness and a bonding. And actually speaking of comedy, in families or group friend groups where it's going really well, there's often when it's going that well, and the person's come to terms with it, there's also some some great humor in those moments, either among the people waiting or whatever. And I feel like, yes, that diffuses some of the tension, but it's also when they feel like we don't want this,

but it's actually going pretty well, that people feel comfortable with each other and connected in a way that allows a humor that's pretty terrific. And that brings them further close together. So let me tell you, you'll like this, Dan. So I got to spend three months with my father in the hospitals during the three months that he was dying. I slept there every night. And it's exactly what you said. It was very, very important time, but there's a lot of humor. But Dan, Dean Obadala, I don't know, Louise, if you know Dean Obadala, now he's like a liberal pundit, but he was a comedian at the time. And he's a Palestinian and my father, he would always argue about

Israel and Palestine. Anyway. And Dean Obedallah came to the hospital. It was my father. And my father said, Dean, I'm dying of cancer. And Dean says, I know. And my father said, I always wished this would happen to you.

That's clever. Totally. You know? And then everybody calms down and you also have the release of the tension building up. It's perfect. It was so funny. It's awesome. And he really played it perfectly.

I hope nothing happens to you. It was so funny. It's awesome. And he really played it perfectly. I hope nothing has happened to you. So yeah, he was able to make jokes. So yeah, it was great. But he was something special. He was 72, which at the time seemed like an old man. But now it's like, ooh, that's kind of young to go. But he never seemed old. He was old.

He looked 72. But if he took the exact same guy and had put it in a 30-year-old body, nobody would have ever detected that he was like, what's up with this 30 year old? He seems weird. Oh, you know, before we go, we should actually talk about that, because, you know, Joe Biden's how he's acting as an 80 year old or 79, whatever. Is he 79? Is he 80? I think he's 80. The public works process of benches and stuff probably shouldn't be free presidential run for elderly welfare. Let's get you

in a little playpen somewhere. And that's not even talking about what they've done to his face. One time I took, he was on a show when he was running for president and he forgot to put his dentures in. And it was like the fray. Anyway, I saw it anyway. So and it's very, very political to talk about him, obviously, with his enemies. The more they hate Joe Biden, the more just merciless and low class and ridiculing they are of any little mistake he makes.

And the more they love Joe Biden, the more seemingly just insincere they are about, you know, denying that we're seeing an old man up there. My personal opinion is that he is just he doesn't seem to have dementia. He seems to be kind of like my grandmother was when she hit her 80s, which was, you know, slowed down a lot. Wouldn't be quick on the uptake on things would be forgetful certainly could have a totally normal conversation with her and enjoy her and she'd remember the next day she wasn't she was not sick in the head but she was old as opposed to someone like fauci who is pelosi or well Well, I don't know Pelosi. We have Pelosi seems fine, but Fauci really seems like this guy is, is amazingly sharp at 83. He remembers the new

pathogen. He remembers the stats. I mean, Joe Biden is not doing that. And she can go out running every morning and buying that probably is not what he should be doing now yeah and this is the luck of the draw i i mean i'm sure that the way you live your life contributes to it but it's very much also the luck of the draw and it's a bigger contributor than genetics for most people so what would you like to tell us about how we should look at biden how we should look at his uh interpret his ability still to be the chief executive, despite the fact that he is obviously, at least I, in my opinion, he's slowed down. If you disagree, certainly you should say so. Yeah, no, no, no. I don't disagree. I mean, I think he's showing some,

some signs, you know, the way he walks that, you know, there, there are clear age changes in his movements, you know, thinking you can have no dementia as your brain gets older. It's what you said about not remembering certain words. I've had that too. And it's incredibly annoying. I completely agree with you. You know, so he's much older than we are. So he has it more so and he might have it more so than some people. I think we as a society haven't figured out how to deal with that transition, which happens for different people at different times, right? So an 80-year-old Fauci is a different animal than an 80-year-old, you know, somebody

else. And we haven't found a way of doing that. You know, do you set, there are cultures that say, let's just set this arbitrary cutoff, you know, and you can look at it on the other end, right? I mean, you have this crazy situation where I live in California. So at 18, you can go off to war and be killed, but you cannot buy a beer. Like, what the hell is that, right? So we pick these arbitrary ages, and maybe we have to do that for older people, too. Or maybe we have a series of tests like a driver's license thing. But that's a little awkward. I think we really don't know how to deal with it because this has not come up. Used to be the exception. And now, you know, look at what's happened with McConnell or Feinstein or, you know, you can do Trump even, you know, and then,

and then, but age becomes the issue. Age should be part of the discussion, but also qualification for office, you know, crimes committed, you know, I'm in San Francisco. So imagine how that goes, you know, like, would you prefer someone who's a little slower or someone who's a criminal, you know, take your pick. But I think we might sometimes be having the wrong conversations. And until we have ways of doing this, people have to police themselves better. I think people should maybe, you know, retire before they're embarrassing themselves or pushed out, like go out on top and plan something to do next.

Would you think that an age of 70, 72 or something would be a good maximum age by statute or by constitutional for a president? I think that might be young because presidents tend to be people of privilege and people of privilege tend to have longer health spans. And there are tons of people in their seventies, you know, running companies in office doing well. So I'm not sure I would do it that young. The reason I would, what I would counter with there, and I don't know if you'd thought about it the way I'm thinking about it, is that at a certain point, it's not that they weren't healthy when they took office, but that the risk that would, and this happened probably with Reagan. I've discussed this in articles.

That in those years, the likelihood that they would then begin to show the signs of, you know, cognitive decline, that's when it would recur and to uncover it and to act on it is so fraught politically that it's not worth the risk because something terrible can happen after all. Well, I think soon we're going to have ways of measuring. There are some things that are coming along that will make it easier to get a sense of

what might happen in the next four years. I mean, Trump, remember those five words, man, woman, camera, remember? Giraffe. What were they, Dan? I don't remember. Yeah. camera member giraffe what were they dan i don't remember yeah i mean you know the risk of dementia is low in your 60s and it goes up you know so if you're going to make that argument you know is it is it 75 is it 80 but you also have to think about what are the human resources you know that that

you might be throwing away by picking an arbitrary age you know but you have to pick an average it might be but but you know you know what we know what we know what we know empirically from real life i get what you're saying and and that would be serious but we what we actually know at least what we've seen in our lifetimes is that it's the opposite you can't get these people off the stage oh completely and it's the young human resources, which we're denying ourselves because they're so entrenched. Speaking of age limits, Tinder, Hinge, Bumble, et cetera, you pick the age limit. So my question to the younger generation, what is your upper limit on Tinder, Hinge,

Bumble, et cetera? Oh, my gosh. Well, sometimes just out of curiosity, I put it up to like 40 just to see what it looks like for these guys. Crazy shot, because it's a different pitch. Like the guys in their 20s are like, I want to have a little fun. But you see a guy. Well, because I'm also that I'm I'm seeing a guy who is in his 40s,

who has his thing set to see someone who's 24. And that's just a fascinating, like anthropological, I'm not matching with them, but I am enjoying like reading them because they're very, they're writing essays. Cause it's like, they're trying to make a buzzer beater across the court shot.

You know what I mean? Before they hit 41. Uh, no, but I, I, I'm dating mostly people in their late twentiess, early 30s, I'd say. But in terms of physical attraction, I mean, Des Bishop, you can't deny is a hot guy, right?

I mean, yeah, I mean, intelligence is like incredibly attractive. And I think that's like something you get as you get older. So like I wouldn't rule out. OK, am I going to regret saying this publicly? I wouldn't rule out if there was a regret saying this publicly i wouldn't rule out if there was a guy who was like in his 40s i'm not gonna say that would be impossible for me i don't know about dating but like but you know some guys do get better looking for sure lori in house oh my gosh have you seen house i haven't seen i'm like i he i he's probably 40 or 50 in that yeah

i'm sold so yes to answer the question, yeah, yeah, yeah. That for sure could work for me. Cillian Murphy in Oppenheimer? Yeah. No, I'm good with that. This is not your expertise, but I will tell you, the way women look at older men is just completely different

from the way men look at older women, unfortunately, but that's just, that's just a fact of life. I, in my experience, yeah, I can see on a dating app, women will be like, why would they go higher than 40? But in, but in terms of if they meet somebody in everyday life, like they will go much higher than they ever thought they would. And, and they all without even a thought, I mean,

we see it all the time. Women dating all much older men. I think, I believe this is also just in our DNA. Nicole, you're not obligated to respond or add anything, but you certainly are welcome to do so at this time. Well,

I haven't had a dating app in a minute, but this reminded me that in college, me and a few of my friends downloaded the Seeking Arrangement app, which is like the Sugar Daddy app or like the original one. And the second I opened it, the first face was that of an 80-year-old

man. And I immediately deleted it because I was like, this is not I don't need the tuition money that bad. It was not Al Pacino. No, it wasn't. That's incredible. Well, but that was, you were, I mean, I can't imagine Nicole doing this, but it sounds, maybe just like on a lark, but that's like a cynical thing, a sugar day.

I'm saying that when a 30-year-old woman establishes a relationship in an organic way with a 55-year year old man or 25 year old man over the course of a few months, let's say that 25 year old woman will very often fall into attractions, that much older man and in a very natural way. And it's sincere and the opposite direction doesn't happen nearly as often. I guess it can happen. It does happen,

but yeah, dating years are almost behind me. And it sounds like I should know. When I hit 45, I'm going to join a farm upstate with the other dogs. And I think the sexiest age for a man, I would say 40.

Any comments? So numerical. I think it varies tremendously. Biden? And also there are women who are like, there really are women who are like older, who are still like, like massively attractive.

Yeah, no, I get some in my office. I'm like, those are really your feet or those are really your breasts. I don't say this out loud, but you do. It's like, wow. My wife is 49. She's super hot. In my opinion. That's good.

Yeah. All right. I think we're done. Larry, since you facilitated all this, is it something you want to satisfy yourself with? Is Larry still there? Yeah, I'm here. Wake up, Larry. I'm here. I was here. Wake up, Larry. No, I'm here. I was just, I was thinking about my options. I just, you know, in, in the book,

you talk about some of your clinical experiences and, and going into socioeconomically deprived areas and seeing patients. And I was one, I mean, I know your dad was a doc as well. Did you get that kindness from him or do you have that naturally that I was such a noble focus in terms of your career to be visiting people in their homes? Yeah, no, he, you know, I don't know that it's noble. Like people often say that because of, because they can't imagine doing what I do, but I do it cause I like it. Like, you know, my dad did, you know,

he did research on animals and eye surgery and, you know, shoot me now. Like if I had to just deal with eyes and not the interesting human being and sociocultural context around them, like boring, you know, it's like, it's like in being mortal, Atul Gawande has this thing about, you know, geriatrics, they just do whatever, like he does surgery on the thyroid. The thyroid is tiny, like he does it over and over again. I think we do what appeals to us. I mean, I, I love meeting different sorts of people. I mean, and I like making a difference that makes me feel good about me. It's interesting to me. So I really enjoyed that. And much more than I

would enjoy like being at the OR and like cutting people open. I mean, my first day, this is in the book to the first day on surgery, I was like, this is freaking amazing. The second day I was like, this looks just like yesterday. You know, so you do what makes, you know, I don't think it's noble. I think it's just me. I just want to add. What I like. I'm such a fan that I'm about to start reading your short stories. So. Okay. Thank you. My first foray. Okay. Well, that was great. Yeah, I thought so. Thank you, Larry, foray. Okay.

Well, that was great. Yeah, I thought so. Thank you, Larry, for facilitating this. It turned out to be, I think, a good discussion. Yeah, that was fascinating. I guess podcast at ComedyCellar.com for comments, questions, suggestions, criticism, and so on. Thank you, everybody. We'll see you next time.

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