The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Everything You Ever Wanted To Know About Jeffrey Epstein But Were Afraid to Ask - Michael Tracey

Episode Date: September 11, 2025

Journalist Michael Tracey and Epstein mega-expert Michael Tracey stops in to tell us what is and isn't true about this remarkable story. Subscribe to Tracey's awesome Substack: https://substack.com/@mtracey

I'm on here. I got to go. Bye. You have a coaster right there. Oh. Welcome to live from the table, the official. I'm here with Noam Dwarman, the owner of the comedy seller. Dan Natterman is in Vegas this week. And I'm Periel, the producer of the show. We are here with Michael Tracy, who is a journalist.

You can visit his website at M-Tracie.net, and that is T-R-A-C-E-Y. Correct. Thank you for emphasizing that, because you know what? There's a prominent Jewish-American surname, Tracy without an E. I happen to be Irish. I wish I were Jewish because if I didn't have the Tracy without an E, then it wouldn't be misspelled so often. Well, it's also hard to find because it's not the most uncommon name, right? So people, and as somebody who looks for people to reach out to as part of my job on the show,

I sometimes email the wrong person. Yeah, I went in years being regularly confused with a guy called Mark Tracy. Right. You know who that is? He's like a journalist guy. I don't know. I remember I met a guy. I was talking to some other guy in media.

He said, I thought for like seven years that you were Mark Tracy. That's so funny. Because anyway, it's okay. I've done it before with big guests. And Nome, of course, becomes, like, irate with me. But then we had somebody on here who was, like, a really big guest. And he was like, that has happened to me many times. And I felt very vindicated.

If your last name was Tracy, the Jewish one, we'd be calling you a self-hating Jew instead of an anti-Semite. I know. I'd be honored it. All right. Let's say. So everything you ever—oh, should we say something? We just found out that Charlie Kirk was shot and we believe has died. Trump announced that he's dead, so.

So did Louis Ahmed? I wish I had been over that. I'm sorry, said other than Donald Trump at the moment, but let's just presume that it's true. I don't know if you have any off the top of your head comment on what's becoming of America. I mean, it's a nightmare. Who knows what the recriminations would be? You know, I politically disagreed and very much vehemently objected to Charlie Kirk, but, you know, this is just beyond the pill, so it's just terrible.

I mean, what else can one say, really? Yeah. AP News. Oh, AP, okay. Yeah, I agree. You know, I made the analogy a couple weeks ago that... Especially because he was at a political function. You know, he was in the middle of addressing a crowd on political topics,

and then he's just shot out of the blue in the neck. You know, it really kind of a vicious range, it seemed. We don't even know if the suspect has been apprehend. so it's just bad and you know i think i i worry how this could potentially be used to maybe disincentivize public political gatherings which i think are really necessary in a thriving civic culture and if now there's seen to be this ever-present threat lurking and people don't want to even take the risk that's that's bad on an entirely different level well you know let's we're getting to have seen but since you since you said that i mean my first uh uh comment was going to be that

that, as I've said, just like with global warming, when you know you have a macro trend, the temptation is to say that every hurricane is because of global warming, but of course, that's not true because there's always been huge weather events. And when you have an act of violence at a time when the climate is hot, it's very easy to draw the conclusion that the hot climate led to the violence. We don't ever really know that in any particular instance, but it sure does feel like it, right? Yeah, you know, I do think that there's always a temptation. and people are always going to rush to declare

that there's something unique to this political moment or climate that has a causal relationship to why this happened or, you know, to when Trump was shot. And then when people looked into the Trump would-be assassin, they couldn't. Nobody could even decipher what that guy's political motive was if he had any. It seemed like he also Googled Biden potentially

to assassinate if he had been in proximity to him in Pennsylvania. So I think people should really not rush to conclusions. And also, remember, in the 1970s, Gerald Ford got shot in the, twice, in the span of like a month. Right. And did it have something to do with the political climate? Sure, but that's always like a very vague thing to really nail down with any tangibility. So, I don't know, I'm always a little bit reluctant to, especially assign blame to anyone.

And especially barring any information, which as we're talking now, has not been forthcoming about who the suspect was or. What have you? So, and I worry about it for myself sometimes when I'm daydreaming because I get some very, very nasty male sometimes calling me a Nazi, you know, this, and of that. I've gotten a ton, you know, ironically, just this morning, every now and then, you know, I get death threats a lot. But every now and then, they're so goofy that I'll just post them just to sort of, you know, ridicule them or whatever.

And I post it, I've gotten much more lately. But I posted one just like maybe an hour or two before this, this new. even came out. And yeah, sometimes they can be funny and like 99.9% of the time I'm not inclined to take them that seriously they're just like online chatter

but at the same time you know, it's not pleasant to be inundated with people who are calling for your murder. You just never know. All right. Everything you ever wanted to know

about Jeffrey Epstein, but we're afraid to ask. We have with us. Fear not. I would say, dare I say, the world's leading Jeffrey Epstein

expert at the moment. I don't believe there's anybody more well-versed in the minutia, the gory, enticing details of the Jeffrey Epstein story than our guest, Michael Tracy. Not a title I ever consciously sought, no. But I suppose a duty that I feel obliged to. So now I want to make this chock full of information for our listeners. This is a story which I have never delved deeply into. Because my gut was always that I'm sure he did something awful, but the entire edifice of conspiracy theories around it, I just decided wasn't true because these things to me are never true.

The analogy I always give is that Benjamin Netanyahu has like four people alone with him in the war room of the Israeli government, and he's deciding life and death, survival or not survival decisions for the state of Israel. and 36 hours later it leaks out to the press. He can't keep it a secret, but somehow dozens or hundreds of people who would have to know bits and pieces of this Jeffrey Epstein conspiracy, the Mossad, the CIA, all this stuff. And there's not even one conspiracy. It's a million different theories.

And not a single person comes forward with any information. I just call bullshit in that. But however, let's just start this one. First tell us what is true about the... Let's divide it to three categories. What we know is true, what we don't know is true but you know it does seem a little suspicious that he gave all this money to you for tax advice things like that things which which a reasonable person might think

that's a that there's smoke there that might actually be a fire and what is just unfounded nonsense conspiratorial gibberish so let's start with what what is true about the geoffrey upstein story so my elevator pitch because as you might imagine i'm constantly peppered with questions about this now yeah and hey i bring it on my myself, so I'm not going to complain. But often one of the first questions I'm asked is some variation of this. Like, okay, so what then did he do? Or give me, like, your master theory. I'm not really that interested in proffering, like a huge master theory. I feel like that's almost what leads to the proliferation of a lot of these unfounded theories. Like, people think

they can just declare authoritatively, here's what happened, right? And with very complex events and phenomena, which the Epstein thing has most certainly become. I'm wary of people who think that they're in a position to just reduce it to a couple of pithy. What was he convicted of? Sure, sure, sure. What did he plead down from that we think he, you know? Yeah, yeah, exactly. So the way I've been sort of encapsulating it is, my contention now is that approximately 90% of what people think they confidently believe about the whole Epstein story is more or less BS.

So either wildly exaggerated, distorted in some way. you know, corrupted by confirmation bias or just in some cases outright fictitious. And that's compounded by a huge number of factors that we should get into including the journalistic malfeasance around this story, which has

been a huge aspect of what I've been interested. What's true? I gotcha. So but there's, so 90% is basically BS, but there's 10% that is I would say roughly true. And that relates primarily to a period in the early 2000. So roughly

2002 to 2005 and it has to do with what I've taken to calling the Palm Beach phase of the Epstein saga so he had this estate or house in Palm Beach and there was a period when he had teenage girls of roughly the same age some were at or above the legal age of consent in Florida which is 18 as young as I'll get to it okay so Florida happens to have like going to the highest ages of consent in the entire world. Now, I've been joking. I'm not ordinarily a huge age of consent guy in that I'm not like deeply studying the intricacies

of age of consent laws just as like out of personal interest, but unfortunately it is like a relevant legal factor here that you have to like be apprised of. I used to know them all by it. Yeah, known by heart, right? I mean, it is interesting. If like if this happened in Palm Beach, Georgia, so one state north, rather than Palm Beach, Florida, it'd be

much different legally. Anyway. So he had a constant parade in this period of teenage girls who, in many cases, were recruiting one another to come to the house and give a massage of varying degrees of sexualization. But what's the youngest age that we... So this whole thing was kicked off with a Palm Beach police investigation that was prompted by an incident involving a 14-year-old. Okay. So sometimes you'll see it reported that the 14-year-old was like so shamed. by her experience that she ran to her mother and then the mother called the police. That's not what happened.

What happened was this 14-year-old was recruited by another 14-year-old who actually, and the one who recruited her was actually one of the people at, I'm almost positive. Again, sometimes, like there's so much information here, I sometimes need to double-check, but I'm almost positive that the person who recruited that 14-year-old was one of the so-called survivors at this Epstein press conference last week in Washington, D.C., that I attended. We should get into that if you're interested. As a spectator you attended him. Well, as an interloper or a trespass or even though I was literally invited by the organizer, Rokana.

But anyway, we'll get into it. So the 14-year-old ends up being brought to Epstein's house by another girl who's slightly older, who seemingly advises this girl to either not tell Epstein her age or lie about the age. and she gives conflicting stories. And it's not even clear if she, this particular 14-year-old, engaged any real sexual acts. It did seem like she probably stripped down

to her underwear and maybe participated in a massage with another girl kind of leading the massage. But in terms of like an overt sex act, not clear if it even happened. Because Epstein was never charged with anything in relation to this girl because there was conflicting evidence.

I'm sorry, because I've seen a lot of interviews and time goes fast and I want to make it like I said chock full of information so if you could just tell me and then the explanation like he definitely molested or whatever we want to call it

10 women 20 women no women so here's what we know for certain insofar as we can know anything by virtue of his guilty plea that he did enter in Florida right so there was this Palm Beach investigation that started in 2005 he was

then indicted by a Palm Beach grand jury in 2006. And then there was a federal intercession into what had at that point been a local state level prosecution. That was overseen by Alex Acosta, who is part of the law now, but he was the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Florida. His office interceded in that local Palm Beach case because the local police in Palm Beach, particularly this detective called Joe Ricari was disenchanted with how the local

Palm Beach District Attorney was handling the case because when Epsine was indicted on a state level at 06, July of 06, he was indicted for essentially a prostitution charge that related to adults primarily and so the local police were upset about that

and they wanted the feds to intercede, which they did. and then there was this whole convoluted process involving the introduction of a non-prosecution agreement, meaning non-prosecution for federal charges, and pursuant to that non-prosecution agreement... Michael, I know, I got you. I'm not getting to it. I'm getting to say it first, and then... No, but you need a little bit of context, right? So then pursuant to the non-prosecution agreement, Epsine was compelled to plead guilty to two state-level charges in Florida. One of them was felony solicitation of prostitution, which relates to adults, and the second one, that was added at the behest of the feds, was...

procuring a person under 18 for prostitution, right? So then that almost certainly related because, and I say almost certainly, because if you go look at the transcripts and such, names are redacted, you have to cross-check things and draw inferences. It's very annoying. I wish they would unredact every record, but they keep a lot redacted to supposedly protect the privacy of victims, which I think is no longer tenable given the outsized political and legal significance of this case. But anyway, that almost certainly related to a 17-year-old. who testified to the grand jury in Florida gave a interview to the police

and she says this 17-year-old that she had consensual intercourse which was unusual for Epstein based on what I can gather in that he often didn't typically did not have full-blown intercourse but he did in this instance and it was with a 17-year-old who said that

this literally happened the day before her 18th birthday and she was asked by the police detective was this consensual she says yes now I'm not opining whether that's correct, I think it's definitely inadvisable. I think Jeffrey Epstein was morally culpable for even getting into this whole situation where there was, you know, girls of uncertain ages or he's not checking diligently whether they're 18, or even if they lied, it doesn't particularly matter for a man in his 50s who doesn't

have to be doing this. I mean, it did suggest the pathology on his part. He was pathologically obsessed with constantly getting massages, which is bizarre. But anyway, we know that he pleaded guilty to procuring person under 18. for prostitution in Florida. So that was admitted by him. So we know that to be the case. But what is the story about, you know,

dozens of victims in that case? I got you. Yeah, okay. Let me ask you a yes or no question for us before. Sure. What am I under interrogation here? No, yeah. Am I on the stand now?

Did he engage in erotic massages with multiple underage women as far as you understand? I would say yes. You'd say yes. Okay. Erotic, but, you know. Happy-ending massage.

50-something-year-old should not be engaged. in erotic massages, whatever gradation of eroticism. Happy endings. You know. Well, you know, happy end. He often, sorry to get graphic. But he, like, for the most part, would, in these massages, based on what I can

understand, is he would masturbate himself. What the hell's the matter with you? Shut up. So when you say happy ending, right? Take it easy. Is that? Not always. Not always. But, yeah, I think, yes. I mean, that is pretty clear.

With the girls in the room. Yeah, yeah. Like that's never happened to you. Mua? So, yes. I mean, I think that is true. But when you talk about, like, whatever was, 30 or 50 victims from this Palm Beach case,

so that relates to a weird quirk in how the government had to approach this because there was something called the Crime Victims Rights Act, right, which is passed in 04, and it becomes very much relevant in terms of how this now even manifest today, which seemingly required or argued that it required the government to notify whom it had designated as victims, but had not been formally adjudicated as such, any kind of adversarial process, that they were pursuing a plea agreement with Epstein or a non-prosecution agreement. Now, it's not even clear what the government's obligations were in that stage. However, they did identify what they claimed to do this sort of universe of victims, separate

and apart from the particular victim that Epstein pleaded guilty to having procured for prostitution. But there were problems even with that, like there was an instance where somebody whom the government had identified as a victim and received a victim notification letter, denied that she was a victim.

Some of these supposed victims wanted to exonerate Epstein. Okay, but what we do know for sure is that he engaged in illegal acts with underage girls And if there's problems with some of the cases, we believe that there is a number of cases which were legit. He didn't plead guilty thinking that he was innocent. Let me just do a year and a half in prison because I didn't do anything, right? And normally when somebody pleads guilty, that's in return for the fact that a certain number of the charges get dropped in some ways.

So he was guilty and he belonged in jail. now so that we know that that part is true yeah but how long did he belong in jail for the offense is specified so the next question is that I want to know whether it's true or not did he have and what is the evidence of him we know that he had all these relationships with Bill Gates and Alan Dershowitz and the Prince this

and you know and Larry Summers and you know who's who yeah did he have cameras around his premises where he film people having sex and blackmailed them. Well, here's the thing. I mean, this gets to the online folklore around this stuff. Some of the claim that he had every room wired, right, where he had secret cameras to capture prominent individuals

and sexually compromising situations, those claims seem to primarily originate with probably two of the alleged victims who are just out of their mind batched it. So one of them is Maria Farmer, who, you know, parades around as though she's the original Epstein victim or accuser. She was literally 26 when she says that she voluntarily climbed into bed with Gilae Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein at Leslie Wexner's compound in Ohio. And Leslie Wexner is... He was one of the richest men in the United States.

He gave Epstein famously power of attorney. He owned Victoria's Secret, The Limited, and other sort of women's clothing retailers, but he also had many other business holdings. So he's the kind of guy who probably wouldn't have any way to meet attractive young women without Jeffrey. I've seen to help him. Well, I mean, it's speculated that he could have been gay. I don't know if that's true. Who knows? I mean, it would make sense to me if he was gay.

I mean, he had a wife technically, but I don't know. Yeah, so the camera. The camera's around. This woman Maria Farmer, right, who is a lunatic. and she's actually as of May of this year suing the federal government, the U.S. federal government for $600 million as part of like some

putative class action lawsuits claiming that she endured like 30 years of psychic turmoil you know depression, PTSD she claims that she was given at least two cancers by Jeffrey Epstein and Galea Maxwell and also Donald Trump and Bill Clinton who knows what the hell she's even talking about

it's a crazy person okay but she never had her she never had her credibility, like, examined at all. Even, like, not for, like, these alt media people, podcasters, podcast, I call them podcast creatures now. They were just totally credulous about her, and we can

get into more specific. No, we got to move because it's... I know, I know, I know. The next one, and the other one... Yeah, the other one is this woman, Sarah Ransom, also a full-fledged adult at the time that she encountered Epstein, and she gave a deposition, and she was asked by the lawyers

supposing her, like, what did you do for a living when you first came to New York City at age 21 or 22. I think it was 22. What did you do to make a living? She said, oh, what I would do was through an agency, which I guess is a modeling agency, because she's an aspiring model, but she didn't best buy.

How would you make money? Oh, I would be asked to meet gentlemen for dinner, and I would get $1,500 and she said on occasion I would have consensual sex with these gentlemen because she found them attractive. So then one thing led to another, and she encountered Epstein's like organization, and she

did fly to the island in the Virgin Islands and so forth. But anyway, she had a mental breakdown, essentially. She tried to commit suicide a few times, definitely troubled person. And in 2016, she started emailing this woman, Maureen Callahan, journalist of the New York Post saying, hey, I'm an Epstein victim. I have these sex tapes on Bill Clinton, Donald Trump, Prince Andrew, and Richard Branson. And my mission is to make sure that, quote, unquote, pedophile Trump nor neither Trump nor Hillary Clinton whom she called that

called that evil bitch Hillary get elected president and I alone can make sure that neither get elected because I have sex tapes that implicate them somehow weaning with Bill Clinton or Trump himself, right? And so she was in communications with this New York Post journalist and one thing to another she admits that she made the whole thing up.

She had no sex tapes. And she's the one who like people just assume must be a credible source for this claim that every house was wired. Now, the New York Times last month did post, publish an article in Epstein's New York House from around, it seems

2019, when Epstein was indicted after having been federally charged and then arrested, and it does, she seemed to show, like, some surveillance cameras and some rooms in the house, but it's not clear, like, when they might have been installed. You know, Gilae Maxwell in her proffer interview with the Deputy Attorney General from July that

came out just like two or three weeks ago, she denies adamantly that there were cameras, like, systematically installed anywhere. I haven't seen any systematic proof that or any, you know, evidence that they were installed in the Virgin Islands house in like, you know, private areas,

like, I don't know, a bedroom or a bathroom or something. In the New Mexico ranch that Epstein owned in the Palm Beach House, except for in the Palm Beach House, Epstein did install a surveillance camera like around his work desk because what if his staff

had stolen from him? And the police came in and installed a surveillance camera for him after that incident it was like I think there was an 03 Well plenty of people have cameras

The question was he was he Okay So Melinda Gates As I understand Yeah we're on to Melinda Gates Well it's related to this Melinda Gates felt That her husband Bill

Was up to sexual no good With Jeffrey Epstein It doesn't mean young girl Give me the quote You mean the quote where she's in it Well I'm because I People make this claim all the time But I feel like they're sort of

like muddling things. She notes that Epstein's friendship with Bill was one of the reasons. She knew the marriage was irreparable. I did not... I don't buy it. You don't buy it. No, I mean, I've seen that interview.

If it's the same interview that you're referring to? I hope this is not... I'll just... I'll just... Now, chat you... The New York Times published a deeply disturbing article that raised serious questions about Bill's conduct questions that suggested... This is Melinda's talking. Suggested he had betrayed not only our marriage, but also my values. Okay, but this is while they're in the midst of a divorce, right?

Yes, yes, yes. Okay, the interview that I've seen with Melinda Gates is she's asked about the Epstein thing and Bill's relationship with Epstein, and she says, oh, yeah, that was a factor. I don't buy that it was like the, I've heard people claim. I was even on a podcast, you know, a few days ago where somebody says, what do you mean, Melinda Gates or like that was the reason why they got divorced? I don't think that's been established at all. I mean, I just think, you know, it's something you can kind of backfill to justify

whatever led to the dissolution of the relationship. But sure, I mean, yeah, Bill Gates was an associate of Epstein, post-epstein's entry of a guilty plea in Florida in 2008, and then he served this term of incarceration in Florida until 2009. So it's like a 13-month sentence, essentially, where he was in the custody of the Palm Beach Sheriff's Office, so June of 2008 to July of 2009. And, you know, among the prominent people that he did meet with after that time period was Bill Gates. So I think, you know, if I were, if I were, you know, divorcing one of the wealthiest men on earth and I wanted, like, the most money possible, I would maybe cite the purported relationship with Jeffrey Epstein to enhance my argument. Yeah, I'm going to find the clip from her memoirs, and I'll put it into the video. So, so now, now you tell us about this. So I'm just trying to, and then we're going to get to the stuff that I think is really crazy.

Sure. So you have these people that surrounded him. there is some inkling there. I mean, Melinda Gates could just be like really inexcusably just smearing her husband here. Well, he did have a relationship with Epstein. That's true. Yeah. But then you do have, and tell us about this, you have these guys, who's the guy from Apollo who gave him 150?

Leon Black? Yeah. Tell that. Because this does make one wonder what's going on here. Did Epstein have something over on these guys? now again I'm just going to say I'm sure you would say it too

that doesn't mean that these guys were there with underage girls it could just be enough that they're with hookers right it could be like men men will just women they don't have to be full of those hookers or just women yeah you know Epstein did like to have in the New York house so

you got to sort of distinguished somewhat in the Palm Beach situation it did end up including at least some girls who were of like lower socioeconomic status You know, there's some notorious stories of, like, girls recruiting other girls who might have, like, lived in a trailer part or had, like, unstable family lives. But in the New York situation, which is a little bit distinct, Epstein did like to have, you know, and Michael Wolfe, the journalist, talks about this because he visited this house and, you know, maybe he's not considered completely reliable, Michael. Not in every instance, but, like, he did, like, it is truth that he had this relationship with Epstein.

He says that he introduced Steve Batson and Jeffrey Epstein, and I think he's right. I mean, I think that's proven by the evidence. He has audio recordings of Epstein that he took. So, you know, he's not just like totally making stuff up here. But, yeah, you should, you know, user critical thinking to maybe vet some of the stuff that he says. But for the most part, at least when it comes to Epstein, I think, you know, he's on the mark in terms of what he reports. But, you know, Wolf talks about how, you know, Epstein at the New York House, and it was like the biggest

and I totally understand why people were so intrigued by this because the guy Epstein did have what was the largest private residence in Manhattan was a famously a mansion and there are no mansions in Manhattan pretty much right but he had one or he had the biggest

private residence and it's and what Epstein would do was he was given it by Wexner who was the previous owner of that house on the Upper East side and what Epstein would do was he would like to have younger younger women

who were attractive, who would just kind of like be sort of like background decorations, right? And he would be like sort of a gentleman's club. Like every now and then there would be a woman who would come to one of his soirees, which sort of like an idiosyncratic woman, right? For the most part, it was men. And they would be sort of adorned with these younger attractive women who would just like, you know, be answering the door or, you know, serving drinks or stuff like that, right? But those women tended to be like, you know, they weren't, you know, they were,

more sophisticated young women, right? They weren't like trailer park types who came from unstableized for the most part. I'm just generalizing. Like, in other words, they knew what they were doing and it wasn't clear that they were like

necessarily always just like outright prostituting themselves at every instance. But sometimes they were. I can't think of a specific instance when in the New York house that happened. It's possible. It was, it's possible. I mean, people just like,

That's the thing. People make logical leaps based on their suppositions on this stuff. And I want to be really tethered to the evidence, which I know is a really controversial thing to want to do. But I think it's actually pretty necessary because otherwise people get so ahead of themselves or beyond their skis and just like propounding these theories based on what they assume must have been proven true at some point, but really hasn't when you dig into the details. Right. But we do need to have some explanation why people were giving this man okay so leon millions of dollars yeah i got you so in 20 early 2021 um an accounting firm i'm not sure if it was deloitte um i forget the firm but it was uh hired by leon black to audit essentially his relationship

with epstein and they submitted the report to the SEC so you can't lie on that unless you want to get yourself in legal hot water i don't necessarily claim that's fully comprehensive or like There's no information that might have been excluded theoretically. But in terms of what's in that report, anybody can go search for it. Epstein was hired by Leon Black as a money manager, just as he sort of had these services for rarefied wealthy people, extremely high net worth people such as Wexner,

such as Leon Black, who was a billionaire hedge fund guy, such as Elizabeth Johnson, who was an heiress to the Johnson and Johnson family fortune. and one or two others. And what is reported in this report is that Epson saved Leon Black like over $100 million, I think, on tax avoidance essentially, or other tactics that he had

to save these guys' money because when he was at Bear Stearns, right, in the late 70s or early 80s as a relatively young man, he rose quickly through Bear Cerns. I think there's some of, evidence, even if you look at his birthday book, that he really was sort of like a math prodigy.

He taught math, obviously, at that private school, Dalton in Manhattan. But he's sort of like, innovative, like, novel tactics to save money for high net worth individuals. And I'm not like a Wall Street guy, so I can't give you a full... So this was some percentage? He saved him a couple billion dollars? Well, he's... In this report, it says he saved Leon Black over $100 million.

And so he got a percentage of him. But if he gave him $100,000, he gave him $100 million, right? Leon Black gave Epstein over $100 million. I'm not sure what amount Leon Black gave Epstein, but whatever it was, it would have been a lot. And same with Wexner, right? Alan Dershowitz says that he was told by Epstein. Yeah.

That he, Epstein, got 1% of Leon Black's revenues or however you characterize the income given the services that Epstein provided as a money manager. Now, Leone, Wexner was one of the wealthiest people. in the United States. He had like a fortune of like eight or nine billion, I think. So do the arithmetic. That adds up to a lot, even if it's just one percent, right? Especially in cumulatively.

So look, I mean, I'm all four. If it were possible, if I could snap my fingers. Yeah. And we can have a full forensic audit about Epstein accumulated every penny of his wealth. I would snap my fingers in a split second. But I think a lot of people who are invested in the sort of more fantastical narratives here

point to the point to epstein's wealth as like this total mystery as if there's no information about it whatsoever and that's just not true now is it incomplete information sure is it I think it's probable that he stored some money off sea overseas or whatever but when he was arrested in oh in 2019 right in terms of these bail hearings he had to report his income or his lawyers had a report his income for him or his net worth and it was around It was reported to at that time to be around $600 million. A ton of money, sure. But he wasn't a billionaire.

This says here that Black paid Epsine $158 million. That says, Black and EFSI maintain that the fees were tied to real financial values delivered. Indeed, Black believe Epstein's ideas ultimately saved him at least $1 billion and possibly over $2 billion in taxes. If true, one might argue, okay, that's 10 to 15%. it seems it seems hard to believe, right? But why? I mean... Why? That seems

well, I mean, yeah, what... Like, he gave him this house because he saved him $2 billion? Yeah, he gave the house essentially in lieu of monetary remuneration. How much is that house in New York? A lot. I mean, I don't know the exact

figure, but a shitload. I mean, what's hard for me to believe is that somebody who works in one of the biggest hedge funds, most important hedge funds in the world that anybody could have cracked the code of investment such that they could make themselves so much more valuable as a money manager than anybody else on earth. I know Warren Buffett wouldn't believe that were true. These guys, they don't believe anybody has that kind of knowledge.

It wasn't limited to Epstein investment knowledge, though. I mean, if you look at so tax avoidance. Thank God to Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche for. to interview Gilling Maxwell for the first time because Maxwell says that that, I think it was July 22nd of this year. It was the first time she says, I think credibly, that she had ever been asked

by any government official or law enforcement official or what have you to describe her role, Maxwell's role, in what we're being told, was the most prolific child sex trafficking ring in American history and world history. Who knows at this point? But she hadn't been asked to describe

her role in it by any government authority until July of 2025. Imagine that. And you maintain there was no child sex trafficking ring. Well, I only brought that up because she talks about what she observed in terms of Epstein's business activities, including

on behalf of Wexner and Leon Black and others. And she says that, for instance, Epstein restructured financially, Wexner's entire business portfolio. What does that mean exactly? I don't know. I'm not a business guy. but it seems like pretty complex work potentially.

He drafted, you know, he basically oversaw Epstein's staff, sorry, Wexner's staff in terms of, you know, that worked on his houses or his other holdings or whatever. He ran Epstein's, no, I keep screwing up the surnames. Epstein ran Wexner's property developments in Ohio. There was a country club that Wexner owned in Ohio The Epstein sort of ran the finances for He drafted the trust funds for Wexner's children

So you're making the case that you think it's some That it could be plausible That Wexner would have thought that Epstein was worth This amount of money And that's what Max Bolt says Now is she the most credible person on earth? I'm not even arguing that I'm just saying that you know

It's nice to finally get information from somebody who's been accused of all these heinous crimes that has been totally missing from any of the popular narrative for this entire time which is informed and the popular narrative is informed virtually exclusively by the

claims of extortionist lawyers like Bradley Edwards and David Boyes, Bradley Edwards who I tried to ask a question at this DC press conference last week and these like, you know, chronic fabricating accusers such as Virginia Roberts, Gufrey and others and delusial maniacs like

Maria Farmer or Sarah Ransom, et cetera. Could it be something as informal as a follower? And then we'll get to their conspiracy theories. You hang out with a lot of important people. You get drunk. They're hanging out. They let the guard down. They didn't drink.

He's a health freak. They do. And Trump doesn't drink either, right? And anyway, you're hanging out. You let the guard down. There's a lot of beautiful women around. Eventually, a certain number of them succumbed to temptation and have sex with prostitutes or just

women. And now they know that you know. I know that Jeffrey knows what I did. Now Jeffrey wants to do business with me. He never has to mention unless you say this, I'll tell you a and a wise person who these people are who know

not to take chances unnecessarily say yeah, it's probably, I probably should let me just do this with Jeffrey. Why would I risk the fact that he has things over on me. He doesn't need to spell it out. Is that a possible scenario? So that sounds superficially plausible.

But so this guy, Bradley Edwards, who was basically Epstein's most strident long-time legal nemesis, who ran essentially as the MC, this press conference in D.C. last week, which we're told Thomas Massey was the co-organist

that this was the biggest press conference in D.C. in at least five years. But Bradley Edwards, the lawyer, was running it. And I'm now deep enough into this whole crap that I have actually read Bradley Edwards book okay it's called Relentless Pursuit anybody can go look it up if they'd like

from 2020 you have a bedroom with like photos hanging in lines and the Charlie Day meme right like I'm not connecting everything so Bradley Edwards' book came on 2020 it's called Relentless Pursuit and toward the end of the book he addresses these theories that he says are very widespread about Epstein supposedly

running a blackmail operation of some kind and this guy would be the last person on earth to admit anything that was absolving of Jeffrey Epstein, okay? And he says, over the course of his incredibly intensive engagements with Epstein, over the course of a

decade, he has never seen any evidence that Epstein ever engaged in blackmail. So that's what this Bradley Edwards guy says, who is now running Epstein's Survivor press conferences in front of the U.S. Capitol. So I'll just defer to him. I'll cite him. That's what he says.

And so now, did your sort of hypothesis, does it sort of like strike people as, again, superficially plausible? Sure, but, you know, I need evidence and there is none. Right. Okay. Now, from that, a picture of a wealthy guy, he's got his hooks in a lot of

other wealthy people and obviously charismatic and a bit of a con man. We've heard stories like this before, a little bit of maybe a little made-off mixed into him and sex and all that and criminal activity. That's an interesting story.

as as as as as an isolated story however now we come to the accusations that he's also a CIA agent that all this sexual stuff was actually done at on behalf of the CIA and then for the real aficionados yeah for the real most most vehement for the real gourmet connoisseurs of this stuff It comes to the Jews. This is a delicacy. Jeffrey Epstein is a rare delicacy, but let's get to the Jews last and your friend Martyr-made.

So was Jeffrey Epstein? Is there any evidence that Jeffrey Epstein was a CIA Honeypot operation? Okay, so here's where that theory comes from. Galane Maxwell's father, Robert Maxwell was like a media baron.

He ran, was it the Daily Mirror, the Daily Record. I think it was the Daily Mirror, but I may be mixing up UK newspapers. um that he bought i think it was in the 80s and so he see when i don't know a fact for sure i will qualify what i say these guys are exactly the opposite but go ahead but these guys like marty made you know you know these other charlatans and darrell cooper if you ever hear this you

are a charlatan i mean you're like a you're like such like a cry baby it's unbelievable but he just will state facts as though he can he can authoritatively substantiate them which he clearly can't but we'll get to that um and And, you know, I admonished Matthew Cockrell for using him for calling somebody a Charlotton. So I just wanted to say, but... No, he's a Charlottleson, for sure. Okay. And a crybaby.

I will stick to that. And... I'll still relate to cry, baby. Go ahead. So, yeah. He's like, yeah, anyway. So people will make a logical leap that because Robert Maxwell, who, it is pretty well proven, was involved in trafficking arms to Israel in the 1948 Arab-Israeli war with the Israelis called

the War of Independence or, you know, the Arabs will call the Palatins we'll call the Nakba, et cetera. It is pretty well founded that Robert Maxwell trafficked arms from then Czechoslovakia, which is his ethnic heritage to Israel

for use in that war. So that's okay, fine. And then he became a benefactor of the state of Israel. What does that mean the benefactor? Well, he funded pro, you know what? I actually am not 100% sure. I think it's assumed that I think it's plausible that he funded, like, pro-Israel or pro-Jewish

whatever... Plant a lot of trees. Yeah, I mean, so... He was involved, and there's a story about how there was this guy, you know, I think I know who it was, but I'm not even going to say the name because I'm not 100% sure, who basically was leaking Israeli nuclear secrets in the 1980s,

and Robert Maxwell caught wind of it. Pollard? No, and it wasn't Pollard. I think it was Ben Monash, actually. Oh, okay. But he's considered to be also an unreliable character. Well, I mean, I think he was, you know, I think he seemed to have reliably potentially had information about Israel's nuclear program in the 80s, but then he's made a whole living on, like... But what is true?

When he was buried, this part of this part of the... In the Mount of Olives. Yes. In the next East Jerusalem. A who's who of important Israeli patriots showed up to his funeral, right? Sure. So he's buried in the Mount of Olives, and I would say, in next East Jerusalem. Let's not debate that.

But he's buried in the same... He was given an honorary burial, just as Sheldon Adelson was. So Sheldon Allison for years was the top Republican donor in the United States. Owner of the Venetian in... Yeah, Casino Magnate and also Macau, Las Vegas. And it was a multi-billionaire. He was hardcore pro-Israel.

And huge Trump donor. Yeah, and now Miriam Adelson, his wife, is carrying the torch. And when Sheldon Adelson died in early 2021, he died in Nalibu, California, right? And they flew his body to... Israel, or if they flew it to the, to East Jerusalem for an honorary burial in the same burial spot. I wish, when I was in East Jerusalem, I went to go, went to go visit it, but if you spoke

more nicely about them, they might invite you. And they have. And did, did Adelson have all these important figures show? Yeah, Netanyahu went. So what you're saying is that the, there's no reason to think he was massad. He could, well, no, he could, I mean, I'm sure he had some connections to the Israeli state. I mean, sure. Was he like an active massage agent? I don't think he had to even be an active massage agent, right? Like, he clearly had an affinity. Did you say massage agent or massage agent? Well, you know what?

I'm crossing our themes here. Massage. Massad. Did the massage perform massages? Maybe to epitaph- Okay. So, well, we skipped over the CIA. So let's start with the massage first.

So Maxwell's, Gillane Maxwell's dad, may or may not have been. But definitely connected. Maybe Massad. Maybe Massad adjacent. Sure. Maybe. And somehow from that, we're supposed to believe... And he died seemingly mysteriously in 1991.

He was on his yacht. So therefore, his daughter... He was found, you know, in the water? His daughter has a relationship with Jeffrey Epps. Somehow that means Jeffrey EFSI must be misled. Right. I mean, I think it's sort of silly for people to just extrapolate that because somebody's father might have been, at least Mossad adjacent or Israel connected or whatever,

if that means that his youngest daughter must have been. I mean, it's possible, but you need to have some evidence. There is really none. Well, there's certain glib observations I would make, which is if I'm the head of the Mossad, and I actually want to engage Jeffrey Epstein in this sophisticated honeypot scheme to get, you know, I don't even know, Bill Clinton on tape. I'm going to tell him, take it easy, dude. We don't need you running all over town advertising the fact that you don't need you having high school girls.

Yeah, yeah. You know, being, get transported to your Palm Beach house. I mean, that might blow our cover, right? So this is a little bit reckless in terms of the way you was reckless. you know, thank God Galane Maxwell did that proffer interview finally with Todd Blanche, Todd Blanche if you're out there, thank you for this interview.

Because she gives really interesting information that makes a lot of sense, which is that she says around the late 90s or early 2000, so sort of coinciding with what I'm calling this Palm Beach phase of the Epstein saga, she says she observed Epstein ingesting or taking what she regarded to be disturbingly high doses

of testosterone. which physiologically it would make sense that I would have made it maybe more reckless impulsive obviously higher sex drive I have that naturally

and I'll tell you it's very difficult to control maybe I'll look into it for myself but because I'm clearly following in Epstein's footsteps oh it's a joke people

we're at the comedy seller so yeah I mean that's definitely some that's definitely useful context to understand what potentially went on here with Epstein

in that particular phase Now, CIA, CIA, so this is one. This is one that I... Oh, I'll give you one. And then I want to get to his suicide or his murder. This is one that I did look into years ago, and it was really the beginning and the end of my... I'm sweating because I'm so passionate about this subject. So there was this, and I'll let you fill in the details, but there was this reporter who claims some hearsay that Acosta, who was whatever's position was,

claimed that the reason he gave Epstein his sweetheart deal was because he was told Epstein, was intelligence. Yeah. So. And then this is, and everybody should know what I'm about to say. And this goes to,

I don't want to name names. I feel bad. But people I know, people I'm friends with. No, no. I mean, we have to name names at this point

because I'm sorry. If we don't, then there's just total impunity for like just a total detachment from any factual standards, but any journalists all around who talk about this. They know very well

that there was an office of professional responsibility. I don't think they did know until recently. I told them in many cases. Well, I've told people, and they still don't mention it, which looked into this. They questioned Acosta. Acosta denied having said it, denied any knowledge, and they even offered him a top-secret forum

where presumably he could say anything he want, a skiff, right? And he still said, no need for that. Well, we don't know. So I have FOIA, the DOJ. People tell me, you don't want the EFSI files what's wrong with you? No, I want more. Foyer's Freedom of Information Act, just for Periology. I want Matt, so you explain to the woman who might not be familiar.

sorry. We're at the comedy seller. I respect women. I cherish women like Donald Trump. So, I've been sending freedom of information requests to a bunch of different agencies, state and federal and local, actually, for the maximum amount of

even possible Epstein files. I want them all. Of course. So that's why I'm against this Massey-Connor bill, which maybe we should talk about, because it includes these exceptions or excuses that the federal government, the DOJ, and FBI can use to continue withholding or redacting

a huge array of potential Epstein files on the basis of either protecting the privacy rights of purported victims, many of whom are full of shit or fake. And then also, on national security grounds or, like, related to U.S. foreign policy, really? What's the nexus with U.S. foreign policy or national security with Jeffrey Epstein? Any evidence that Epstein could have been involved in the CIA?

Not that I know of? Nothing. I mean, anything's possible? No, no. Okay, okay, so he did meet with William Burns, okay? Mm-hmm, who was a former... Under Biden, he was the CIA director. He wrote the Niet memo or...

Yeah, in 08. Yeah, he was the U.S. ambassador to Russia under George W. Bush. And he said, you know, infamously that Ukraine is a red line for Russians across the political spectrum, not just Putin. And he was sort of advising the Bush administration of the time not to encroach on what... Niet means Niet. That's what it was called. Yeah, yeah.

Not to encroach on what Russia perceives to be its sphere of influence, especially with Ukraine, which is usually emotionally. So Epstein met with him. So Epstein meets with him. I think it was in 2014, maybe. It was when he was out of office or maybe just getting ready to depart. He had a million government positions. I think he was like a deputy state department guy or something like that.

And the claim was that Epstein met with him, and they talked about basically as he was entering his phase as a private citizen, what should he do with his finances? Something like that. That was the claim. But then he later becomes a CIA director, right? Which is obviously fodder for a billion different theories. And look, I mean, I think William Burns should be scrutinized

for his role as FBI, CIA director under Biden. I mean, he was up, who knows what he's up to? But I think, I'm not sure how many meetings it was disclosed that they had. It was either, at least two, I think. But okay, that's just like one dot and then people want to connect it to me and he

Westman an intelligence asset. And I'll get into the Acosta quote. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because that's... And then I'll tell us who Virginia Jaffray is. Oh, God. Tell us who she is. Yeah.

Then I'll watch some videos. Go ahead. Okay, I see Kim Dillon on the screen over there. Yeah, yeah. So this Acosta quote, right, it's become central to the folklore, especially on the internet, around Epstein. And it's amazing.

Nobody, even these, like, vaunted Epstein researchers, like Whitney Webb, Daryl Cooper, you know, a million others, they don't bother to really investigate substantively anyway or with any degree of adequate sort of scrutiny, the providence of the supposed quote. It appeared in one

July 2019 article in the Daily Beast by this woman Vicki Ward has her own problems in terms of credibility and how she's kind of embellished her role. This whole Epstein thing, which I don't even want to get into because it would derail the rest of the conversation. But she writes in this 2019 Daily Beast article

that Acosta who was at that point the labor secretary in the first Trump administration who had been the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Florida at the time that this federal non-prosecution agreement was negotiated with Epstein in 2007-2008. He said, Vicki Ward report that she was told by

a former senior White House official two or three years before that, so two or three years before 2019 during the Trump transition period, so after he won the 2016 election, I guess, that Vicki Ward reports that she was told by this former official that Acosta said that he had been told that Epstein, quote,

belonged to intelligence and therefore to leave it alone or back off. So it's like quadruple hearsay. The source or the anonymous former senior white house official that told this to Vicki Ward is almost certainly Steve Bannon, who's like a consummate bullshitter, essentially gossiper, gossip monger. Because he was collaborating with Vicki Ward around this time on a book trashing the Kushner. And if you recall from the first Trump administration, Jared Kushner was like the biggest rival of Steve Bannon.

Yeah, this is like court intrigue. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's that court gossip or whatever. And in other words, the quote is like not at all meritorious in terms of the sourcing. And they built a whole edifice on top of it. I've tried to question her. Moynihan told me, by the way, Nancy Romulman is upset that you didn't call her back. Moynihan's...

Oh, I will get back to her. I'm sorry. I've been getting a lot of podcast requests recently, but I will give him. Moynihan told me that Michael Moynihan that Vicki Ward said somewhere that she didn't even believe that Epstein was CIA. Yeah, I mean, she's all over the place.

I mean, who knows with her? Like, why won't she reply to my emails, Vicky? So now, let's just get to Margarade for a second. And then there was that OPR report, right? Yeah. Which there is, which in which contains the only known instance

in which Alex Costa was asked or addressed directly under oath and under palty of perjury whether he knew Epstein to have been an intelligence asset at the time that this Florida non-prosecution agreement was negotiated. And again, under oath, under penalty of perjury, Acosta responds directly to the DOJ, who could prosecute him potentially. The answer is no, he didn't know this.

Now, all these researchers and these online folklorists, they use that Vicky Ward like triple hearsay quote as the launch pad for their investigating frenetically, these supposed intelligence ties, but they seemingly had no knowledge at all of this report that came out almost five years ago now, November of 2020, and that includes Whitney Webb,

who didn't even know that it exists until I emailed her in August of this year, seriously, and martyr-made or whatever the hell we want to call him, Darrow Cooper, who also clearly didn't know that this report existed when he went on Tucker Carlson's podcast for this emergency Epstein education

session, and then through it through a hissy- bit when I emailed them about it. My erstwhile friend, Daryl Cooper, he did a whole show with his guy, Ryan Dawson. Oh, please. All about, and I was going to say, I wish I had it to cut it in. They spend 25 minutes at the top of this show, just bashing Israel and the Jews. Okay, I could not resist.

Here is a few minutes of Daryl Cooper's deep dive into Epstein interview extravaganza with Holocaust and I are Ryan Dawson. I also, I also edited in for flavor a few of Ryan Dawson's other comments from other interviews, just so you get the full picture of who it is that Dowell Cooper has such esteem for. If you get him going, I mean, he just, he's, he's been on this stuff for so long. If you really want to go deep, go subscribe to Ryan's substack, support what he does, you know, and you don't, again, you don't have to agree with his tone on Israel. You don't have to agree.

What people have to understand, like Israel is a, it's a country. run by criminals, like absolutely psychotic criminals where they think God's a real estate agent and they just murder people. And Israel itself has thousands of sex slaves. They have brothels filled with young Eastern Europeans, a lot of Ukrainians recently, who were lured there. They take their passports away and they are in forced prostitution. So that means rape. They had organizations for human trafficking like the good kind where they would get Jewish refugees to Israel. So they had well-organized outfits to do this type of thing. But the war's over and those never went away. And they just went right in to bring in forced labor, forced sex slavery. And they don't care because

they don't look at you as human beings. You're dumb goyam. And this is not like just organized crime. Like the state does this. It is organized by the state. The Israeli government had sex tourism rings. George Steinberg, Hebrew language teacher. They had little kids, like eight, nine years old. Websites of them nude. You know, hey, Israelis, you know, come fuck a child.

They're satanic. You look at it. Child pedophilia, Jews. pornography, Jews. Oregon trafficking, Jews. Central banking, Jews. Lying about war, Jews.

The neocons, Jews. Communists, Jews. Pick a fucking lie. There they are. it's them every time and for no reason at all the elected adolf hitler okay we'll talk about epstein we will but you got to understand Israel is a safe haven for pedophiles Tel Aviv is full of them some of them commit crimes again and end up in jail there but this is why they feel like it's safe to do and the fact that you have a society with enough customers that you could have pamphlets for rape tourism what does that say like of course they kill kids you're dealing with like demonic level evil but once you can

get people to take a calm look at what evidence is available the whole myth falls apart and the reason it's important for me to say well who cares if it was six million or one million or nine hundred thousand whatever it's still wrong but i'm not arguing about that it's still wrong for people to starve to death or anything but it was wrong on both sides and without this extra kind of theatrical portion of the story, there's nothing to differentiate the allies from the Axis powers. I like that it's gotten to the point where now it's cool to talk about these psychopaths, because that means the needles move to a point where you kind of can criticize Israel now.

Couldn't before at all, or you're dirty-inchist semi. Israel and the Jews. Israel and the Jews. All to soften the ground for what is obviously the nucleus of their interest in this story, which is that Epstein is Jewish and related to Israel and obviously this is I think also Thomas Massey's reason I'm not sure about Massey although I'm disappointed with Massey let me just say yeah I'm a critic of Israel

that's a critic of you know but it's important I'm a critic of US foreign policy including in relation to Israel however my argument has been that this whole obsession with Epstein and sexual blackness as the prism through which we all need to somehow view the U.S. relationship with Israel is a total distraction. No, it drowns out what I think

are necessary rational critiques of the U.S. relationship with Israel, and nobody wants to hear it because they'd rather get themselves tantalized by these nonsensical, and I think largely, almost certainly fictitious sexual blackmail theories that stemmed from Epstein that aren't based on any credible evidence.

You know, I take, I, Dave Smith doesn't really talk to me anymore. Well, he's also foolish shit. But there was a certain, like, just a practical happiness I get, because I'm not anti-Israel, that people like Dave Smith, who I think does want to be an actual intellectual person. Oh, please. No, no, I think he does.

Enough of these failed comedians thinking that they're politically intellectuals. I think he got... It's a scourge. I think he got carried out to see by the undertow. and the undertow was that these people like Candace Owens and Tucker Crawls or whatever it is. Candice Owens, the intellectual leading light of our times.

And Daryl Cooper, who he didn't have the sense to break ranks from when he first started to see himself. That's cowardly. Now he's all out, right. So I take... Let me make my point. So I take a, just a cynical, practical,

what's the word? Jesus Christ, I can't think. Anyway, satisfaction of the fact that by keeping his relationship with Candace Owens and martyr mate and these vicious he has discredited what might I'll tell you what discredited him might be an anti-usual position similar to yours

and now it's gotten dirtied by the fact that how are you going to trust these people when they can't even when they can't even break from Nazis right let's leave the Nazis aside not that I'm unwilling to discuss Nazis he took expediency that was where the right it was expedient for him to stay with you He went to the talking point to Turning Point USA Conference, which is run by Charlie Kirk, who has now been assassinated.

Okay, so that's bizarre. I don't even know how to deal with that. But he went, there was in July, like about a week or so after this DOJ FBI memo come out on July 6th, which announced there's no Epstein client list. There's no evidence to blackmail. There's nobody additionally to prosecute, et cetera. And then everybody went insane. And we had the summer of Epstein, as I lovingly call it, which is probably the best summer of my life, frankly. So, you know, like the summer of 69, the song.

Yeah. I'm going to, maybe I shouldn't make a song about it. I'll do it an acoustic guitar rendition. But, you know, Dave Smith, and I wrote an article about this because it's just insane because people were sending it to me, right? So Dave Smith goes to this essentially normie Republican gathering for, like, the youth wing of the Republican Party. That's a Charlie Kirk RIP did run. And Dave Smith just, like, says, oh, yeah, he states his fact that Donald Trump you know the guy that all these people are like venerating to the point of absurdity in other any of every other circumstance that Donald Trump just like did a just covered up for a mass rapist ring child rapist ring just like based on what Dave like what do you know that we don't and it's insane it was just like defamatory like I'm the last person to rush to say hold up everyone don't defame President Trump as though because I don't even you know I have a million critiquity.

of Donald Trump, but, like, seriously, you're going to now make the main critique that's, like, popular on the internet being that he's a pedophile and that he's covering up a child rapist ring. At this, the D.C. press conference last week, Thomas Massey said that too. Thomas Massey,

okay, so I used to, at least appreciate Thomas Massey, because he would go against the grain. He's one of the very few Republicans who's not totally subservient to Trump. Trump has vowed to primary in Kentucky for his next re-election in 2026. he's actually very knowledgeable

in terms of legislative minutia so he had been on the Rules Committee in the House. Most members of Congress, if you talk to them, don't even know anything about the Rules Committee. Thomas Massey does. And he's independent. He really is. So I had some admiration for Thomas Massey as well as Rokane, who I also know on some level. But they're the ones who ran this press conference last week in D.C. with Epstein survivors.

And I was invited to attend by Rokana's staff. because I have been in communication with Rokana over Steve Bannon angle of all this because Steve Bannon had these 15 or more hours of interview footage that he conducted with Jeffrey Epstein. That he won't release.

He won't release. He won't claim why. He says, oh, it's for some documentary, but he said that in the past and no documentary ever comes out. Who knows? It's very suspicious. And he's always very voluble

in talking to the media, including to me in the past, but he won't talk about his Epstein footage. So that's strange. But I had talked to Rokana about this, right? And so I got invited to this Epstein press conference. I went, right? His staff escorted me in. And then I ask a question to somebody, you know, this guy Bradley Edwards, who's the lawyer who represents the purported Epstein victims. Again, most of whom were fake.

That sounds like a really controversial thing to say. I will substantiate it to the hilt. And so I asked this question about Virginia Roberts Gouffray, right? So it was basically the central Epstein quote-unquote victim. Without her, we're not talking about this right now. She's the one on whose behalf, Bradley Edwards filed a motion in late 2014 called a motion for Joinder related to this Crime Victim of Rights Act. It's too arcane to get into at the moment. But he, in this motion, that's where Virginia Roberts-Cufrey introduces this whole theory of a mass child sex trafficking ring and also a blackmail operation. And she names Prince Andrew and Alan Dershowitz as two specific individuals

to whom she claimed that she was sex trafficked as a minor but then she also says there's this whole constellation of other prominent individuals that she generically gestures toward like foreign prime ministers

and so forth to whom she was by whom she was like facilitated it means nothing because I always thought sex trafficking as somebody's kidnapped and they're transported somewhere it just means

if I say if I say Periel I'm hooking you up with this dude and I bring you over there that could be considered traffic it means everything and nothing If I sell you, Perry L. It means everything.

Yeah. I guess I'm in the market. It means everything and nothing. It means like literally... But it has to be a legal definition for it. There is, but it's so amorphous. It's so nebulous. Like racketeering me.

Yeah. I mean, press-like prosecutors love it because they could just define it however they want. So they tried to define it with Diddy. And then that case got... Diddy got acquitted because they couldn't establish that there was a real trafficking thing. It really just means like...

Doesn't it mean like across state lines, though? You think, but not necessarily. It's like just like, somebody gets moved or move, like, you facilitate the ability for someone to move from point A to point B. That's what it means. Now, what, didn't Mike Johnson also say something like this? Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, there's a definition here, though.

The, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, no, there's a federal statute, but I'm saying it's very adaptable. Yeah, it's, they can, so Mike, I mean, Mike Johnson is also full of shit. So Mike Johnson tried to claim just a few days ago that Donald Trump was an FBI informant against Jeffrey evidence. Oh, that's then he walked that back, it's not true, or that's never been proven by any evidence. And Mike Johnson also, like, Mike Johnson also stokes hysteria because, you know what? This issue is so weird.

It's like, Mike Johnson's this big, like, evangelical Christian, right? And there's always been this, like, cross-ideological or cross-religious lines between the evangelical Christians who were obsessed with trafficking stuff. And then the feminists who also say, we need to empower prosecutors to more vociferously prosecute so-called traffickers because, I don't know, in the name of feminism or something. And that's how a lot of these... And they also want to make sex work legal. I don't know.

Who the hell knows? Which should all be segregated from underage people. But it never gets segregated. You know why? So at this Epstein press conference, right? Which I was at. We could do a whole show on that, but it was the same. But they knowingly conflate women who are being presented to the public as Epstein

Survivors. That's the official title now. I don't know when Survivor was the new word that was declared to be the one that we all had to repeat or you know repeat like it's some you know chant or you know platitude

but yeah so they're all survivors right but like several a multiple of the women who spoke of this thing and they didn't clarify this when they spoke right because it's being run live on CNN and I had a friend text me when I was thrown out wait my mom just saw you on CNN I'm like wait can you send me the clip

why were you thrown out I'll tell you why so I asked the question to so many of these Epstein survivors were adults at the time that they claimed they were victimized. Women in their 20s. So we'll leave that aside for now. People can go to my sub-stack if they wanted more information.

But I was thrown out because, notwithstanding that I had been invited by Rokana, the co-organizer, along with Massey, I waited my turn to call on a, to ask a question, and I'm the only guy, of course, or gal, who would even have the slightest inclination to ask even a mildly critical question or skeptical question, even though you think that's what would be what you would do at a press conference, right?

Of course. But, like, nobody had the faintest notion to do that, naturally, including the other journalists who were, like, all against me, even though I'm such a nice guy. I'm so humorous. I'm talking about the comedy seller. And so I asked Bradley Edwards, who is basically like a commandeering in the press conference. You know, they, Roe Conner and Thomas Massey, like, they stepped aside.

First of all, neither of them know basic details about the Epstein case. Like, they could not sit for you. Sit with you. They know he's Jewish. I don't want to say by Roe Conno. I don't know, but I don't. Thomas Massey. I don't know. I don't buy that, really.

Okay, let's see if Massey mentions this Mossad thing in the future, but go ahead. You know, the files exist. There are some files there. This is not a hoax. I don't think it implicates the president. I think it would be very embarrassing for the rich and powerful in this country and in other countries. Let's get it out there. This may even implicate some of our allies, some foreign intelligence, for instance, Israel. is I am the only one who's got the spine to walk down there to the floor of the house and introduce this. The question is, why didn't 434 other members do this, and why are people reluctant to get this out now? I'm not going to claim that I know. No, you don't have to close my name.

I don't think that Massey is motivated by some Jewish thing, okay? So, but that said, I think he's gone off the deep end. Israel thing. Well, the reason I think he is, just to just as about it is because to get these maga types, to break ranks with Donald Trump. There has to be something that is overwhelming that gravity, the magnetic force between Trump and them. And the only thing I can think of

that these people value more than their relationship with Trump is there, or that has more weight with them, is their hatred of Israel. Okay. Let's just bracket that. Let's just bracket that. Yeah. You understand my point. He's been targeted by APEC, et cetera, and other pro-Israel groups. Yes, that's true. And that probably does, have some crossover to why he's now invested in the Epstein thing,

but I think he's be clowning himself totally on the Epstein stuff, like he just says stuff that's wildly sort of, I don't know, just, uh, exaggerated and, you know, he's like, he's like, sort of posturing as like somebody who's defending the survivors and he's like saying Republican men, why am I,

why am I only the Republican male member of Congress who's supporting the Republican women because the people... Look at Marjor Taylor Green. Yeah, Lauren Bobert and Nancy Mix. Yeah, and Marjorie Taylor Green was another one of the super MAGA people, one of the few of them, very anti-Israel. Okay, so. She's relevant here.

Okay, so I asked my question, right? My question is, Virginia Roberts, who I'm directing the question to represent it for years, she had to recant her claims against Alan Dershowitz in 2022 after accusing him for nearly a decade of having committed vile sex crimes against her as an underage girl. and she didn't just like vaguely accuse Alan Dershowitz, right? If you go and like read the court documents, the deposition transcripts, etc., she described in graphic, lurid detail. She's talking about a tumetcent naked man who wouldn't shut off about Israel. Well, maybe she should have.

That would have been more amusing. But it wasn't that funny, which she really did do, which was that she said that there were at least six occasions on which she had been sexually victimized by Dershowitz as a minor. And she described it all in lurid graphic details, such as like his ejaculation habits. It was, you know, grotesque. And she was adamant that this happened to her, and then she recanted it. And Bradley Edwards was one of the lawyers representing her when she recanted it. So because at this press conference, and there was this, the press conference, there was like a survivor's rally that happened right before it, also out front of the Capitol,

where Virginia Roberts-Coop-free is being hailed as though as to she was some martyr. It's like truth-telling martyr, like she was a saint, like she's been beatified by the Catholic church, or like, it's like a civic or a secular beatification of her. and I'm sorry there's hardly been anybody ever on earth who's been more of a chronic like a proven chronic fabricator and yet it was all being whitewashed it was outrageous and so I asked Bradley Edwards about this right and then they cut me off like the survivors were recognized me because I had tried to ask some of the questions before and they're all like you know murmuring amongst themselves and they were telling Bradley Edwards don't ask

to this guy don't answer this guy and this guy said we're not answering this question and they cut me off right so I said okay I mean let me that video so I I'll send it to, yeah. And then, so they move on for me. Bradley Edwards points on another journalist to have her ask a question, but then Rokana interjects. He comes to the podium. He addresses my question.

I asked Rokana a follow-up. Next thing I know, Capitol Police are accosting me. And they're telling me they have to leave. I'm like, wait, hold on a second. What do you mean I have to leave? I'm an invited member of the press. I'm invited by Rokana who's running this press conference. I simply asked a question.

And they say, no, you're going to be arrested if you don't come right now. So, you know, okay, at that point I comply, I'm not going to defy the police. So they throw me out, and then people send me videos afterwards because I'm, you know, I didn't have my eye on like every little thing here as it was going on in the moment. But then on the video, you clearly see Marjorie Taylor Green, who has a member, as a member of Congress, has jurisdiction over the Capitol Police. The House of Representatives runs the Capitol Police. You could see her directing Capitol Police officers to throw him out, get him out of here, get him out.

She's on video doing it. She's joining, like, this rabid mob of fake survivors. But as a member of Congress, she doesn't have the... No, she has authority. Yeah, I mean, but 435 people can order the police to do stuff? I mean, if a member of the House of Representatives tells a Capitol Police officer to do something, they will do it. They will, but it's a legal authority, it doesn't matter. Yeah, I mean, legally, the U.S. House of Representatives is the body...

As a body, yes, that controls the Capitol Police, right? So she, you know, if she tells a police officer to do something, they will do it. Okay. So that, then I'm thrown out, right? And it was huge, I mean, it's because she and the so-called survivors did not like the content of my question. I wasn't disruptive.

I wasn't a trespasser. And so it's a First Amendment thing. I don't know if I'm going to pursue it, but like, you know. And so that's why I was. How many of those women at the survivor thing claimed to been underage victims of Jeffrey Epstein? There were a handful. I mean, so you got to, like,

one of the draws of this press conference was supposed to be that they were going to debut new survivors, right, who had never before given their school. quote-unquote story, but they also trotted out other people who had been in the public record before. So, for example, there's this woman, Haley Robson. I think, based on what I can see in the video, she was, like, the ringleader in telling Bradley Edwards

don't answer this guy and basically have him thrown out because I did try to interview her before. And she talked to me briefly, but she's reported to have been, including, like, this woman, Julie K. Brown, who, like, wrote the Miami Herald series in 2018 that she says catalyzed the re-prosecution federally of Epstein and caused a huge sensation.

It's sort of tied Epstein. into Me Too and so forth. She says that Haley Robson was like one of the main recruiters for Epstein in the Palm Beach phase and told girls to lie about their ages and say they were 18. We're already out of time.

I'm going to get to two things. The suicide. Yeah. Now, as a matter of, you can look up, I'm in the Wall Street Journal for debunking something years ago about the study which claimed that Jeffrey Epstein

did not commit suicide. Something about the breakage of his Yeah. And I don't even remember, but I actually looked into it at the time, and Toronto ran it in the Wall Street Journal. So actually, you could look that up. But at the time, I was very satisfied that there was no evidence that he was murdered. So this might surprise you, right? So this is the one area. Uh-oh. Where I'm cut. Yeah, the cane coming to pull me out. You're just one of them. You're just a little bit less. This is the one area where I'm less convinced that the, let's say conspiratorial theories are unfounded. So Epstein's brother, Mark, Epstein, he's alive. He was Epstein's next of Kim when he died in August of 2019

because Epstein didn't have a spouse, didn't have children. So he was the one who was brought in to run his affairs once he was deceased. And he seems like a measured person to me. He makes sure, he makes a point to not make any claims that are beyond what he knows to be factual. And he's convinced that it's very unlikely that, He committed suicide because of the injuries that he sustained. Well, you know, you're on to something there because I just saw that Jesse Smollett's brother

insists that Jussie Smollett actually was a victim. Okay, I'm not claiming that Epstein didn't kill him some, okay? I'm just saying my confidence interval is lower, and it doesn't have to be a massad conspiracy. It simply could have been that Epstein was known to have, was perceived to have been at the time when he was in the federal jail facility in Manhattan to be the most notorious pedophile in American history. What happens to pedophiles when they're in prison?

They get their ass kicked or killed. Okay? And so there was an inmate who was put into Epstein's cell as his cellmate for a while who was known to be a very violent former corrupt cop who had been charged with murder, multiple murders. And, you know, when I was thinking about this, I sort of surmised that if that guy was known by the street, was revealed to the street gang and basically he was in,

that he didn't kill Epstein, he would have gotten his own ass kick. So I'm saying, I don't know for sure. This is a very important point I'm going to make, in my opinion. You're doing now exactly what you're faulting others for doing on different matters. In other words, you're creating a plausible narrative without evidence. No, I'm giving you evidence. No, the evidence says we see the video for which we have all the various people who were there.

He was on suicide watch. There was the autopsy. He wasn't on suicide watch at the time that he got. No, he had been, meaning that it's not outrageous that he would commit suicide. But he claimed he didn't try to commit suicide. He claimed he was attacked. You got to go read the DOJ Inspector General Report from 2023, which of course, Dahl Kruper didn't read. Okay.

Where it says that Epstein claimed when he was put on suicide, he actually did not attempt to commit suicide, but he was attacked. And then we have all that video of the door. And I know there's some problems because there's a reset in a minute. But you can see, it's hard to imagine, even with that angle, that's a murder. came in. I don't know. He was a fit guy. It would have to be noise.

They would have to pay off the guards. He would have to get out. He would have to do it all in that. He didn't have money to pay off the guards? The most plausible theory that I could buy myself believing is that he paid the guards like the other way while they killed.

It could have been a lower level, almost banal thing. It didn't have to be some... He could have committed suicide with the guards pay to look the over. Dershowitz says this. Dershowitt says that he... Dershowitz says that he thinks that if Epstein did commit suicide,

it would have to have to have... been with the assistance of the prison staff. Is that so crazy? It's not so crazy except then the question is, well, how did he get the money? Like, how did he, how did he? He had a commissary. Well, unless he has real cash with him and the... No, inmates can fill their accounts with money.

That's how they get, like, food and whatever. Right, but they've got to give the money to somebody. I'm just saying, okay, I'm not asserting I know conclusively one way or another. Okay, let's watch. I'm less conclusive. Less conclude. I, I, and, you know, I know you probably hate Bill Ball. but Bill Barr...

I was a founding member of the Bill Barr fan club in 2019 when he was going after Robert Mueller. So the Mueller report. Bill Barr was 100% sure. And then you have... I don't think he said 100% sure. I read his book. He said 100% sure. And then

you have... What's his name? Dan Bongino and... Oh, please. Which is... Two of the least credible people on Earth. Especially Bongino. Except that they were all in on and it's humiliated. Like, everybody who's... Everybody who's actually looked at it has come away, for the one medical examiner

who also said that OJ couldn't have possibly killed Nicole Brown Simpson Well, he's the only one said Let's watch you, go. Can you start it at the beginning of the video? It's when you actually create problems, not when you're just a part of the right? Yeah. And full screen it? Yeah. And then

this will be it. We've got to go because I'm waiting for me downstairs. Go ahead. Or if you can't full screen it, it's okay as long as we can hear it's fine. It's fine. Just press play. Uh, okay Okay What's Whitney Webb's take on this?

I bet it's she's probably I mean Whitney's research is so unbelievable Oh but by the way I should say Yeah Before I go any further than that Whitney Webb has some strange Conspiracy that she believes

Someone's trying to keep her From being on my show Interesting Yeah Whitney I'll have you on the show I just haven't reached out Because I have Thousands of people to go through That's all it is

I would definitely do it though The idea that I wouldn't do it is incorrect, and I apologize. She's enormously... Autistic? Well, there's a lot of this. She talks like this a lot, and she's just the pentameter of her voice is very like this, and she goes... She knows a lot. She knows a lot about things.

She goes, Jeffrey Epstein, on the third day in January, 1996, he met with this guy, you know, like, but she... With no notes. No notes. She's off the top of the head, yeah. But she's really enormously amazing at research. She's an amazing researcher. She, like, has compiled the data. Yeah.

No, she definitely has. And how they kill all those people in Germany? Nobody's whacked her yet. She's somewhere in South America, I think. Good move. Yeah, smart. Yeah, I guess. Yeah.

But, I mean, how much resources does she have to protect herself down there? One of the reasons I think people like her end up being safe is she writes his very big, very studious books that no one in America reads. That's true. Where no one, it's not a threat. It's not a threat. Because it doesn't go mainstream. It's not a threat. Now, these big Hollywood types that go,

I'm going to blow the whistle on whenever the hell's going on. They go, bye-bye. You know what I mean? Or a mainstream journalist who's like, I'm going to write an article about something and, you know, it's going to lead to a congressional investigation. Yeah. It's always over.

I realize this is, this isn't the clip that I wanted. So just tell us about Whitney Webb and then we'll go. Tim, Joe, please. Tim, Dylan, you're one of the very few comedians. I have ever found funny. I am so fed up with all these failed comedians who now think that they need to have a political podcast, but you are actually funny.

Whitney Webb is a fantasist. She's a charlatan. She doesn't engage with rational criticism. She just does this spurious dot-connecting thing where she's like a motor mouth, where she'll throw out just an avalanche of seemingly plausible facts and then just like invite everybody to draw the most salacious possible inference. And she makes up some of those facts, like I found out, because everybody was bombarding me with demands, that I need to look into Whitney Webb.

I was a huge coward if I did not engage with the Whitney Webb's work. So finally I said, fine, I'll do it. And so, like, the first part, I read some of her atrocious book, One Nation Under Blackmail, which is, like, ridiculously idiotic. Oh, she's one of her, two volumes? Yeah, they say it's a two-volume book, but I don't know. It's just the same book, essentially, and it's just a whole, you know, it's just a load of crap. and they say, oh, it's this amazing research. Okay, like, what research is amazing, Tim?

Like, spell it out for us. Give us a concrete example of what research you find amazing because I don't find any of her research amazing. And, in fact, her research methodology is, like, beyond dubious because she doesn't, like, bother to double-check anything. That Vicki Ward quote, we were talking about with Acosta, she cites that in her book, like, on the literal first pages of her old impetus for investigating these, like, intelligence ties

or blackmail ties regarding Epstein, and she clearly did not ever investigate the provenance or reliability of that quote. She just like wanted to conquer her bias. She made up on Brianna Joy Gray's podcast this idea that Donald Trump, in concert potentially with Jeffrey Epstein, had a guy

murdered in prison. So to make sure that this guy could not incriminate Trump in a child sex trafficking operation, it was just made up. The guy didn't even die in prison. This is unfortunately the way a lot of people operate. This is the way the people who claim that Rushagate was were operating this is the way

you don't have to, this is the way a lot of people like Scott Horton operate when it comes to the whole Ukraine-Russia thing and their claims about you know the West organized a coup in Ukraine and Maidan and you know

Victoria Nuland and all that stuff it's not about whether these things can or can't be true it's that they'll take some quote from somewhere they won't tell us at all give us any idea about how reliable it is or isn't they will, just as with this

professional responsibility, an office of professional responsibility report, they will keep from us on purpose, any mitigating. No, they don't even aware of it. Yes. They're so cloistered in my opeth that they literally are not even aware of any countervailing evidence. That's what, for instance, that's what they do like with this, we're going to end now, but

like this Nuland, this hugely significant Nuland phone call that the Kremlin, that Putin release. But what do you have also just make stuff up? It's not that she even just spuriously dot connects facts. She also makes up facts, and so does Daryl Cooper, who's a giant crime. What they all do is leave out contrary evidence.

And they're not doing legitimate research. So when they hail her supposedly like unparalleled research abilities, it's a total crock. They're not journalists. All right. But Michael Tracy is a journalist. I believe that you will be, I believe that you'll be vindicated here, except on your incautious openness to the idea that Epstein actually killed. I call it epistemic humility.

Epistemic humility, okay. And we're very happy to have you. You should become a regular guest because we have a lot. We should argue by Israel. We'll see what happens. And then that'll be the last time you're going to. You're already got me in trouble. Now you want to argue about Israel.

So we're going to go. Peryl, you have any final questions? No, I would like for him to come back and discuss. As a woman, were you offended by anything tonight? Just your positions on Israel. She's the wrong one. Well, and I went to Israel for the first time ever. After October 7th, I had Israelis running up to me, congratulating me for making Aaliyah,

because they assumed that I was Jewish. Well, what's his name, Arthur Kwan Lee? You know who he is? His name rings about it. The artist, the anti-Semitic artist who did Daryl Cooper's logo. Oh, yeah, you sent me something about that, yeah. Who the hell knows? But he put a picture of you, and he assumed you were Jewish, and he made a remark about it.

Look at him. I miss this. You got to say, I always tell people who assume I'm Jewish and, like, try to impute something nefarious to me on that basis. I tell him I'm honored. I wish I was Jewish because my IQ would be a few points higher. At least. All right. So thank you, Michael. Remember to call Nancy Rommel and then back. Steve, any comments, Steve? Steve Walbonne. I think we covered it. You think you're covered. Okay. Good night, everybody.