The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - For Whom Chapelle Droles

Episode Date: October 23, 2021

Ismael Loutfi is a stand up comedian in NYC who’s performed on Jimmy Kimmel Live! Bill Burr Presents, and has a Comedy Central Half Hour special coming out soon. He has written for Patriot Act with Hasan Minhaj and is a Comedy Cellar regular. 

This is Live from the Table, the official podcast of New York's world-famous comedy seller, coming at you on SiriusXM 99. Right on! And on the Laugh Button Podcast Network, Dan Aderman here, with Perrielle Ashenbrand, the producer of the show, and, as it so happens, an on-air personality. That's just how things went. We also have Noam Dorman, owner of the world-famous comedy cellar,

and we have with us a newbie. You know, how often does that happen? Ismael Lutfi. I thought it was Lufty, but it's Lutfi. Beautiful. He's a stand-up comedian in New York City. He's performed on Jimmy Kimmel Live, Bill Burr Presents, and has a half-hour Comedy Central special coming out soon.

He's written for Patriot Act with Hasan Minhaj. Once again, he is making his debut on Live from the Table. A warm welcome for Mr. Ismail Lutfi. By the way, before we get into it, on the subject of these names, maybe this is a way they treat Arabic names, but Rashida Tlaib, and know, Rashida Tlaib. And they always call her Tlaib. But it's spelled Tlaib.

T-L-A-I-B. And everybody, even on the news, they say Tlaib. And it's not Tlaib. It's Tlaib. Well, I think, I'm pretty sure it's Tlaib. But it's because it's a very small vowel. It's a very small uh sound. It's a shwaib.

It's like a, because in Arabic there's only three vowel letters. So we a very small uh sound. It's a schwa. Because in Arabic, there's only three vowel letters. So we don't have A-E-I-O-U. We just have like A-I-E, kind of. So there's not a lot of words that have vowels in them. Right. So it wouldn't be T-A-L-I. They spell T-A-L, Talib.

But it's not. How would you say the name? It would be Tlaib. Yeah. But there's a tiny... It's like a schwa. I don't know what exactly... It would be Tlaib. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's a tiny, I think there's... It's like a schwa. I don't know what exactly... Could it be a schwa? Between the T and the L, is that a schwa?

What's a schwa? In other words, I mean, obviously, an American is not going to pronounce it with the proper accent, but it would be closer to say Tlaib than Tlaib. Probably, I'd have to see her name written out in Arabic to know the actual way to say it, but I mean, I don't think anybody, anyone who cares about how you say their name, I don't, I don't fuck with that. You know what I mean? I agree with you. It's like, who cares?

I care. As long as you're close. I hate it when people fuck up my name. Really? You're looking for things to be upset about in general. No, it's true. She is. Oh, for, I mean.

I don't need to look for things. Some people are not happy unless they're miserable. Oh, for the love of God. It's truly true. Okay, Dan, what are we talking about today? Well, first of all, well, I'll leave it to you, Noam, to pick our first topic. Either Shatner in Space or For Whom Chappelle Drolls. Whom Chappelle Drolls?

Yeah, Drolls like funny. Like Droll, yeah, like Bugs Bunny used to say Droll, very Droll. Did Bugs Bunny say it? No, Fred Flintstone used to say it. Oh, it was Fred Flintstone, yeah, the Flint is like funny. Like droll? Yeah, like Bugs Bunny used to say droll, very droll. Did Bugs Bunny say it? No, Fred Flintstone used to say it. Oh, it was Fred Flintstone. Yeah, the Flintstones. So I named that topic for whom Chappelle drolls to discuss his special. Or we can start off with Shatner in Space, so you pick it.

Shatner in Space. Shatner in Space. William Shatner, 90 years old today. Wednesday, as we record, became the oldest man in space. They went to, if I can check my facts here, to the altitude of, one second. Was this a five-minute mission? I love this. It was a 11-minute mission.

The final frontier apparently is only three minutes away. The round trip lasted just under 11 minutes, reaching an altitude of 347,539 feet. I'm not sure what that is in miles, but apparently the magic number is 50 miles. That's the so-called Kármán line, which is the international basically

delineation between where the atmosphere ends and where space starts. I mean, it's not an exact thing because the atmosphere kind of gets thinner, thinner, thinner, thinner, thinner, and there's no discrete point. It's like abortion. I suppose. So anyway, William Shatner in space.

Is there some controversy around this? No. Well, there is because Periel thinks it's a waste of money to send celebrities into space. Who said, was it taxpayer money? No, but Perrielle thinks that whoever spent... Why don't you worry about your own cosmetic drawer? Why don't you worry about wasting money?

It's a waste of everything. And your dumb outfits in your closet you never wear. Or you start counting William Shatner's money. It's not William Shatner's money. I don't think he paid. I think he got a free ride. Whoever, whoever. Jeff Bezos' money. I don't think he paid. I think he got a free ride. Whoever, whoever. Jeff Bezos' money.

Why don't you feed every fucking child in America before you start sending William Shatner to space? I don't think that's the way it works, Praiyal. I mean, I think if you have enough money to be sending random motherfuckers to space, that's where the concern comes from. It's like if there are people who are living in, you know, decrepit poverty in this country, we don't need this dude going to space what is that accomplishing what is any

space well first of all exploration accomplishing first of all um i think it's obvious that the exploration of space eventually will accomplish very very important things as a matter of fact the future of the world will probably someday depend on the fact that we explore space. No, whether it's technically sophisticated ways of fixing the climate. I mean, everything that we benefit from in the Internet and all this stuff is as a result of work done in space. There may be threats from space someday, asteroids, whatever it is that need to be. We may need minerals from space. I mean, we may put solar panels in space.

Well, this is part of the normalization of travel to space. Because I hear that defense a lot, but to me that's like. Am I wrong? I think you're not completely wrong, but I think that's like... Am I slightly wrong? You're slightly wrong. That's akin to worrying about the color of your fucking, you know, the color of your ceiling in your mansion.

Where am I wrong? When it's on fire. Point being, we have more pressing issues to deal with. We're always going to have pressing issues. Yeah, but your point that it's going to be the savior of mankind at one point is a little bit moot because I don't think there's going to be a mankind to get to in 35 years. Listen, Jeff Bezos is not responsible to feed. No individual is responsible to feed every child in America.

That's government policy. If the government wants to tax a man more than he's already being taxed. Taxes are pretty high on the wealthy. The wealthy pay like 75% of all the tax revenue. If the government wants to tax him more, not Jeff Bezos alone, then the government should tax more. And I don't think

people are starving in America. I think we do have very well-funded programs to food stamps and all this stuff, to give people who don't have food, food. I mean, just the fact that it's so hard to get people back to work now is indicative of some level of prosperity. People who don't have to work says something about their situation.

I don't think starvation, I mean, obesity is a much bigger problem. I mean, the government, the progressives. You can do both. The progressives are trying to, they want like a three, three and a half trillion dollar package they want to pass. I don't think starvation is anything, an issue I've even heard about in that $3.5 trillion. It's like building things and universal child care and universal pre-K and college and debt forgiveness and all kinds of stuff. I haven't even heard starvation as an issue. Right in the city. There are plenty of hungry children every single day.

Yes, but that's not Jeff Bezos' issue. I mean, your problem is not with him. The question that was pointed to me... Your problem is with the government. No, no, no, no, no. My problem is with the government also. But we were talking about... You don't think Jeff Bezos gives millions of dollars to charity?

I have no idea. You don't think Bill Gates gives millions? Bill Gates alone has done tremendous things in Africa for malaria and everything. They spend hundreds of millions of dollars. If you're really interested in this, there's a great thinker named Anand Jirihardas. I know him.

Yeah, he's got a great book about this, about how charity is used by the 1% as a sort of loophole to not pay taxes. It's actually not very beneficial because you're right. We do have a lot of charity. We don't want them to pay taxes on it. Right, but my point being people give charity as a means of avoiding. You don't want them to pay taxes on it. Right, but my point being

people give charity as a means of avoiding paying greater taxes. It's a loophole. It's not avoiding taxes. You're just not taxed on that money. You still have to pay the money. I don't think you're saving money. I think you do end up saving money. No, you don't.

The point I think is this. When you give to charity, you decide where your money goes, as opposed to the government deciding when it takes your taxes. And the question is, does the government do a better job of allocating your money than you do? In other words, if I decide to give money to, you know, save the whales, is that a better use than the government would have spent it on had I just given it to them? So I think that that's the issue, is where is the money is being allocated more effectively

and efficiently, either by private charity or by the government. My only point is that if you have enough money to send William Shatner to Spain... How much money are we talking about? I don't know. Well, maybe you should know before you... Like, you don't even know. Well, whatever it is, if it's $10.

It doesn't matter how much it is. So now we're going to get down to Jeff Bezos, how he spends his $10. Next time you make any assumption on a thing that I know you don't have the exact facts for, I'm going to go, but you don't even know really. I don't do that.

You don't do that? Okay, well, I got Hawkeyes on you now. Do I do that? I don't do that. Yes, you do do that. You definitely do that. It's part of being a podcast. The blueberry jam. The blueberry jam. eyes on you now. Do I do that? I don't do that. Yes, you do do that. You definitely do that.

The blueberry jam. The blueberry jam. If I were going to complain about how much money Jeff Bezos is spending, I would take the time to look and say, how much money are you really talking about? Millions of dollars. Okay, millions of dollars. It's probably a lot of money. So you'd rather him... Let's say it's what? 20 million? I'm guessing.

20 million dollars? 10 million? Probably more than that. I'll Google it while you guys talk. One thing that you also have to consider is that $20 million goes to people building the rockets, workers. I don't know how many people were involved in this thing, but that money is going into people's pockets. Of course.

I'm not anti-space. Engineers and so on. Does it pay salaries? I'm not anti-going into space. I just don't think that sending William Shatner... And also, you have no respect for William Shatner. Is the problem.

I don't know. Why is that a problem? Do you know what it is to be the captain of a starship? Okay, Jeff Bezos said that his company has sold $100 million in tickets. So this is a money-making... They don't give the number of how much they charge. Hold on. There's information here. He sold $100 million in tickets. This is a money-making... They don't give the number of how much they charge. Hold on. There's information here. He sold $100 million in tickets for flights. In 2018,

Reuters said that Bezos had planned to charge between $200,000 to $300,000 per ticket for a space flight. And presumably, that's profitable. Virgin Galactic said it reopened ticket sales for $450,000 a pop. So what's the issue here? There's not a lot of money. People buy cars for that kind of money.

You complain when he buys a nice car? So it does matter to know how much. Yeah, but even still, I mean, the point remains that it's just... But even still. Unfortunately, it doesn't matter. No, no, no, no, no. Let's not confuse us with facts here. What are you talking about with facts?

You just said... Whatever you just said was a lot of money. The point is... It's not a lot of money. It's not a lot of money. Millions of dollars? Well, if it's $350,000, should Tracy Morgan have bought his Bentley? Or how about his fish tank? People spend

$350,000 on stuff much... They spent $350,000 on season tickets. This is not a... That's absurd also. That is also absurd. Yeah, but I'm saying this is at least exciting and moves. It does move the culture forward. Sending William Shatner to space,

specifically William Shatner. It also provided entertainment. I enjoyed the 10 minutes I spent watching the space launch. William Shatner was moved to tears, and I think... You guys are just curmudgeons. No, no, no. It has nothing

to do with being a curmudgeon. Give me one rational reason why Jeff Bezos can't spend half a million dollars to send William Shatner to space. He can do whatever he wants. I just personally think it's a waste of half a million dollars. Wait till you have a half a million dollars. Let's see how worthwhile you spend it. You just watch.

You just watch. By the way, I tweeted in response to this whole Shatner thing and it didn't get as many likes as I was hoping it would, but now that they sent William Shatner to space, they're going to send

Henry Winkler to Milwaukee. That's great. For those who don't know, that's a Happy Days joke because people play too old. They don't even get the joke. Yeah, it's an older person's joke. Happy Days took place in Milwaukee, but it was filmed in L.A.

And William Shatner, Star Trek took place in space. I only know William Shatner from the ads and from him killing his wife, allegedly. No, really? That's Robert Blake. No, he drowned his wife. No, he drowned. Maybe he didn't, but he probably did. It's one of those, he's a celebrity, he drowned his wife. No, he drowned. Maybe he didn't, but he probably did. It's one of those...

It's one of those, he's a celebrity, he probably did, but who cares? Our society moves away from it. We just ignore it. It's okay. His wife died in a swimming pool, but I don't think he was... I don't think he was a suspect or even close to being a suspect. I don't think... Robert Blake killed his wife, right?

He might have. Or that other guy, that other curly black haired guy. Phil Spector. Oh my god. I don't like talking about the Jewish guys who do it. Okay, let's talk about Robert Blake. Is Shatner Jewish? Yeah, Shatner's Jewish.

Oh, then it's okay that he went to space. Shatner's half Jewish. I'm not sure which half. No, no, he's both. He's both. He's both Jewish. He's from the same town my parents are from, Montreal, Quebec, and was actually born in the same year my father was. Unfortunately, my father doesn't have quite the mental acuity that William Shatner has. I mean, it's just amazing to see this 90-year-old man speak eloquently and poetically.

And if you closed your eyes, I don't think you would say he's more than 60. So I want to say two things about this. First of all, it reminds me, since I'm old enough to remember the moon launch, I can remember very clearly people saying at the time that we shouldn't go to the moon because it was a waste of money. But I think in retrospect, it's hard with all the trillions of dollars that have been spent on programs and this and that since then it's very hard to think that anything would be any different if we had simply not gone

to the moon it's such a drop in the bucket in terms of the actual and as is this thing these things are these things are literally not measurable in terms of percentage change in terms of the overall gross national product and money spent. That it's just, it's just, it's almost anti-intellectual to focus on it. But more importantly, more importantly, more importantly, more importantly,

I go to amusement park lately and the G-forces of these rides that go upside down have made me feel like I was going to pass out, which I attribute to age. And I've been reading about that. This is common that as you get older, you're just not good at rides anymore. And I'm just intrigued by what are the G-forces that William Shatner was able to deal with at 90 years old to go into space.

And they do feel these G-forces in the rockets, right, Dan? You fly. I don't know what a G-force is. I don't fly a rocket. There's no technology to get rid of the G-forces there. What's a G-force? I don't know what a G-force is. It's a gravitational force.

When you accelerate, you get kind of pushed back, and it pushes against you. You know, when you're in a plane and you go down the runway, you feel yourself being pushed back into the seat. That's G-Force. You're feeling G-Forces. And so when you're in a rocket, pilots of jet aircraft, they have a special suit that pushes the blood. Because the blood tends to pool under the G-forces, so it pushes the blood to other parts of the body. So that must be what he had.

Well, he might have had that, yeah. Because I know there's some exercise you can do with your... A G-suit. You push through your stomach, and it pushes the blood back up into your brain. I was reading about it. That's one of the things I was trying to do on the... Which they teach astronauts,

and they teach fighter pilots, I guess. Yeah, and on the ride, I was trying to do that while my daughter was like, this is the best thing ever. And I'm like, I'm going to pass out, sweetie. What amusement park? It was a little traveling carnival that stopped in my town. You couldn't handle that?

Yeah, it was one of these rinky-dink ones. Yeah, but this was... The tilt-a-whirl was too much? This is a big fucking ride that goes upside down fast. That doesn't sound safe. It didn't look safe. Why'd you go on it? My daughter begged me.

She begged me. I went on two of them. The first one wasn't so bad, and the second one made me sick. Nothing worse than being strapped into a roller coaster you don't want to be in. That's the worst. The feeling of like, fuck, I want to get out. I know. The worst to me is that part where you

go out where the chain pulls you up the hill and that noise, that chink, chink, chink, chink, chink, chink, it makes as you're going up the hill. Yeah, but this wasn't just a roller coaster. This was literally just a big stick with a container on one end, a container on the other end, and it just went over

on top of itself, just spinning. More or less advanced than the Cyclone? Oh, Cyclone is a roller coaster, right? Yeah, yeah. This is not a roller coaster. Don't bother me. This is just spin you upside down until you're sick. And then when you think it's done, it slows down.

Then it goes backwards. No good. Which hopefully is the opposite, but it's not. Anyway, go ahead. So why don't we get into our big topic of today, comedy-related topic. Dave Chappelle's special The Closer has provoked no small amount of controversy, as do all his specials, it would seem, because he supposedly insulted the LGBT community,

in particular the trans community. I didn't necessarily see how he insulted them so much. He also insulted, he also took a shot at the Jews, which is less, has generated less controversy. Noam, I don't know if you, which of those two, have you seen the special now? I've seen the special. I don't know which of those two areas

you want to address first or if you want to address. I don't want to address either because, and not because it's Dave Chappelle. This will be a good podcast. I mean, because I don't care what he says. He should say whatever he wants. Okay, fine. But there's still a lot to discuss.

I'll discuss. I'm just saying, like, it's not on my mind, like... We can discuss the... First of all, we can discuss the accuracy of some of the things he said. For example, he made the point that... He seemed to be making the point, correct me if I'm wrong, have you seen the special? I have seen it, yes.

He seemed to be making the point that the LGBT community does a better job than the black community of asserting their rights and getting respect. Would you agree that that's a point that he had made during the special? I think he was trying to make that point, which I think is a little bit wrong, a little bit dumb, I think. It's simplistic. Because there are black LGBT people. He's trying to silo off these groups

even though they're one and the same. Well, also, is it true? I mean, for example, he makes the point you can insult a gay person. He said you can kill an N-word, but you can't insult a gay person. But, you know, Roseanne Barr and Shane Gillis will tell you that you can't insult an ethnic minority. You'll also have the repercussions. So is the gay community any better than the black community, the Asian community? Did he mean in general you can't? Or I mean, because he got grief. Did he mean like? I think it seemed to me, the way I interpreted it is that he said he was jealous of the LGBT community for doing such a good job of getting respect. I would say that over the 40 years

that I've been watching stand-up comedy and the hours and hours of political humor I've seen, I don't think I've agreed with two minutes of it. So, yeah, I don't agree. If that's what he's saying, I would agree. Well, you saw it. I mean, do you interpret it that way? I was watching it late.

I wanted to watch it again. Yeah, that's sort of what he's saying. I'm not sure if it's that clearly. I took it to be more as him pissed off that they came at him so hard when he didn't really come at them very hard at all. And he felt like this is disproportionate. You guys just attacking me for a few jokes when I've never been anti-gay. And, you know, well, other people can say blah, blah, blah. And they don't get it.

But you're right. It's not so easy for other people to say blah, blah, blah, and they'll get it. But you're right. It's not so easy for other people to say blah, blah, blah either. So I would agree with you. Having said that, I think the important, and I want to hear what your opinion is, but the important thing about all this is actually not to get dragged into the merits of the political discussion because that's not the issue at hand. At a different time in our history, it would be interesting to discuss that. The issue at hand right now is really whether or not if he said something we all disagree

with, that Netflix should take him off the air and people shouldn't allow it and people should not go see it. That's really the issue we're facing as a society now, which is why my attitude is, and I don't, and I don't, I'm sure I don't agree with him on Israel either. I'm like, you know what? This is dangerous. It's a dangerous scrutiny to begin with. I don't give a shit what Dave Chappelle says.

You'll be happy to know that Netflix has stated they have no intention of taking him off the air. Now, the question remains whether if it was somebody of lesser note, they probably would have taken him off. They would have buckled you. Though, I mean, to be fair, Marlon Wayans had a special on HBO come out like a couple months ago that was,

it's just, all the Chappelle stuff, it's ten times worse in terms of LGBT jokes. It's the most homophobic thing. And I'm sort of with you, Noam, in terms of I'm not very politically correct when it comes to watching stand-up. But watching Marlon Wayans' special, you go, is this fucking 99? This feels like it's old, old-school homophobia.

Nobody gives a fuck about it. Nobody even cared. Nobody even noticed. Because nobody watched it. So it doesn't really, it's all kind of for naught. It's all the talk about Chappelle. I agree with you. It's a little bit just to, you know.

It's just for fun. Yeah, the whole thing. I mean, I don't think stand-up actually matters culturally at all. I think it's just kind of a mirror. People like looking at it and commenting on it. What do you mean you don't think it matters culturally at all? I don't think it impacts anything. I think more than anything, it just is a reflection of what we feel.

That is to say, you don't feel comics move the needle in terms of the way people think. Totally, totally. Oh, I don't think that's true. Really? Yeah, sure. I think that comics are, you know, one of the most important cultural voices that exist. Well, a voice can be important

and not be moving or changing things, you know? I don't know. I mean, if you look back at history, you look at, like, Richard Pryor and, yeah, I mean, I don't know. If you look back at history, you look at Richard Pryor and I don't know, George Carlin. But it's not them. Are they reflecting?

Or are they changing things? Exactly. Or are they simply a mirror to show society as it is? Carlin's a good example. He was doing that whole words you can't say on TV at a time when people were feeling that already. Post-Vietnam, post-we're more critical of the government, post-blah blah blah.

He wasn't really... People weren't suddenly changing the FCC regulations because of Carlin. They were just already noticing them. I think comedy is a little bit repetitive culturally. It's an echo. But it's fun. I like doing it.

I don't know. I'm thinking. Oh, this could take a while. I think that comedy is part of the overall, it's the opposite of death by a thousand cuts. No one thing moves a needle, but Colin and Lenny Bruce, and this was all part of the breaking free of taboos and whatever it is, as was thing moves the needle, but Colin and Lenny Bruce, and this was all part of the breaking free of taboos

and whatever, as was all in the family. And everybody contributed in their own way at that time. But the needle definitely did move, and it didn't move all on its own, and it didn't move because of one particular thing.

But, I mean, George Colin was a big deal. But, I mean, George Carlin was a big deal. The Seven Wars of Sand Television, that was a big deal at the time. I mean, even look at Jim Norton right now. And SNL and all. Jim Norton. Jim Norton, like how he talks about. Well, he talks about. You can. No, no, no.

Go ahead. He talks about his desire for transgender women, and maybe that in some way, in some small way, inspires people to be more accepting of transgender women. Wow, I didn't even think of that. I think so. Or maybe not. I don't know.

I don't think Norton's trans thing had a big... I mean, I'm just saying as a person who's been in the woke world for a long time not that I am woke but as a Muslim you just are a part of it no matter what I don't think many people are referencing Jim Norton bits not yet maybe at some point

but of the people that listen to him maybe some of them are saying if Jim sucks cock then maybe maybe I need to rethink the whole thing that's true so what's the nexus between Islam and woke If Jim sucks cock, then maybe I need to rethink the whole thing. That's true. So what's the nexus between Islam and woke? Sorry. I mean, it has to do with, you know, the Iraq War.

It has to do with the—because pre-9-11, a lot of Muslims were more conservative. You know, it's kind of an affluent minority in America. Arabs moved here, you know, doctors, et cetera, et cetera. And then 9-11 happens, and then we invade two countries and kill hundreds of thousands of people, and then now every brown person in America is pretty leftist or liberal, minimum liberal. Can we get to that just in a bit? Sure, sure. One final point about Chappelle is he's being, you know, I guess we won't get into the space Jews joke because I'm not getting the sense that you want to talk about it, but correct me if I'm wrong.

You can talk about it, it's just like I said, I... You're not going to get heated up and start yelling. Well, I'm going to stipulate that I'm pretty sure that I do not agree with Dave Chappelle. Well, you heard the joke. Yeah, I mean, yeah, but it was a very small amount of words,

but I know Dave a long time, and I don't think we agree on Israel. Just like I don't agree with Mustafa in Israel. Who's, you know, Dave's, you know, uh, close friend and my close friend. And that's fine. Putting that aside. Do you think that he said anything that was anti-trans? I mean, he, no, you know, people say he was anti-trans, and I'm trying to remember the act, and I'm trying to say, what did he say that was, at least, I didn't see Sticks and Stones, I don't, maybe I saw it,

but the closer, I'm just trying to think, what did he say that was anti-trans? He mentioned, I'm going to just give away one joke, he called the vagina of somebody who's, you know, gotten a vagina, surgically created a vagina, he called it an impossible vagina, like, you know, like a beyond vagina, likeically created vagina. He called it an impossible vagina. Like, you know, like a

beyond vagina. Like the impossible burger. I guess you could say that one might interpret that as homophobic. I don't. It's a joke. It's a joke, number one. Number two, it's true that this is not a natural vagina. Therefore, it's a perfectly good analogy.

But I don't know if that's the reason why people are upset. I'm trying to think, why are they upset? I'll tell you why. What are they upset? Because he aligned himself with J.K. Rowling and said that he was a TERF, which is a trans-exclusionary radical feminist. Oh, you are woke.

I mean, hey, I know the words. So the fact that he said he was a TERF is what is upsetting to you. I mean, because TERFs are innately, if you are saying that you are that, then you are, by the trans community's definition, anti-trans. Correct. And I would say logically, yeah, you are probably anti-trans. But what does it stand for again? Trans exclusionary.

Go ahead, radical. You want to finish it off? No, no, no. What does anti-trans mean then? Trans exclusionary radical feminist. Right. The point being that you can be, it's like you're saying, I'm a woman and women's rights, etc. And if you're a trans woman, you don't count. You have to be born a woman biologically to be in this tent of a feminist.

That doesn't mean that trans people are not deserving of rights and respect. That just means they're not covered under the feminist umbrella. I think it gets extrapolated to that. I mean, it's by definition. If you can't be a feminist. Well, but you can be something else. You can be a trans rights advocate. Hold on, but TERF is not something people

say that they are. This is something that people claim. They self-identify. Okay, well, J.K. Rowling never called herself a TERF, did she? She probably has. But you're saying Chappelle did in the specials? People self-identify as TERFs. I don't think J.K. Rowling is anti-trans. She might be saying that

feminism is about defending the rights of biological women. But that's anti-trans. But she might say, but defending the rights of trans is something else just as valid and just as wonderful. But it's not feminism. In other words, so for example— I mean, why does she get to say that? She gets to say how she feels. Why does she get to say that?

Let her write her fucking Harry Potter books and shut up about trans people. to say that. She said that's, she gets to say what she, how she feels. Why does she get to say that? Why? Well, she doesn't, so in other words, she's. Let her write her fucking Harry Potter books and shut up about trans people. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, so much of, so much of trans. What do you mean? What did J.K. Rowling say about trans people? Do you even know? I think, she probably said something on the, to the effect that, you know, that trans women are

not women, or something like that. Yeah, something to that effect, which, I mean, being the trans community, and I'm not a member of it, obviously, but the trans community... That's not obvious to me. Not yet. Yeah, who knows? Well, first of all, I don't know how you were born or what you identified.

Hey, this mustache I think is pretty legit. I've seen trans... Natural? I've spent an entire evening with trans... Well, in one particular instance, I spent an entire evening with a trans man, born a woman. Yeah, yeah. I had no idea until afterwards I was told, by the way, she's trans, or he's instance, I spent an entire evening with a trans man, born a woman. Yeah, yeah. I had no idea until afterwards.

I was told, by the way, she's trans or he's trans, I should say. Had no idea. Sure. And you have soft features. That's true. I do. I have little hands. There are.

No. I don't believe that J.K. Rowling said she's a TERF, but Perrielle's going to verify it. In Forbes. Oh, the fact that Perrielle's going to verify it. In Forbes, the fact that Perrielle is allowed to verify something is... She gets it wrong a lot, even when she reads it. I think that there are

people that are called TERFs who essentially feel the following. Everybody should be respected. Everybody should do what they want. Be whoever you want to be, But don't pretend that sex is not a real biological concept. Period. becomes even people who who are bothered by that who would disagree with that i'll say to them okay what do you think about um all these trans women who are winning in these sports events they're like oh that's a tough question well it's a tough question because sex is a real issue you know when

you have when you have a weightlifter a trans woman weightlifter setting records it's hard to say to deny that's that sex is real. And then when you have this trans woman that Perry Elle was offended by who went into that spa and her dick was hanging out in front of the kids. Please quote me

properly on that. You were outraged by that. I said that no adult should be showing their genitals to children. No, that's not what you said. I that. I said that no adult should be showing their genitals to children. No, that's not what you said. That's what I changed. I changed what I said. Whatever.

So the point is that, you know, so that's the line I think of. And the problem is that anybody who says what I just said will be cast as somebody who hates trans people, you know, adjacent to people who beat trans people or don't want to let them work or whatever. And that's nonsense. And that's just nonsense. And the fact is if somebody wants to tell me that sex is not

a real concept or gender is not real, they should explain it to me. Because I don't get it. There are definitely people who would love sex is not a real concept, or gender is not real, they should explain it to me. Because I don't get it. There are definitely people who would love to explain it to you. Can you explain it to me? No. Can you explain it to me? I've tried to explain it to you. And that's what's interesting to me about Islam being woke, by the way, because I get how

they get dragged into it, but these concepts like being pro-trans, pro-gay, these are not, like I don't, when I think of the people most likely to get on that train, it's not Islam. You're not wrong about that, but I think there people most likely to get on that train is not is not Islam. You're not wrong about that. But I think there is just something to be said about coalitions in general of minorities. No, no, no.

We've had this discussion. You're separating sex from gender. I've tried to explain it to you. Get in. Well, you can do that. But other people don't have to do that. You just said I wish somebody would explain it. But I'm saying I don't think you're.

In other words, you can say that I've decided blah, blah, blah. But I'm saying like as a something where you can prove to somebody, no, you're wrong. You're wrong when you say that because – and here's why you're wrong. Here's the scientific argument. It's a political argument and people can disagree with your politics. I don't think it's a political argument. Well, explain the science to me. I don't think it's a political argument. Well, explain the science to me. I don't think that it's scientific either, though.

I don't think gender is— There is some science to it of, like, you know, there's some brain thing that determines whether or not you identify as a woman or a man. I think a lot of the trans issues— Well, I think we all accept that they really do identify as the sex identifiable not everybody I think J.K. Rowling would say yes of course you identify as a woman

I don't know enough about J.K. Rowling to be able to speak to that but I do think that I can glean from what Chappelle said that's what he feels here arelean from what Chappelle said, that's what he feels. Here are my thoughts on Chappelle.

Okay. You sum it up first, and then we'll get to the Muslim stuff. Okay. I generally like the specials for the most part. This last one I thought was a little bit weak as a critic, if I'm going to criticize. But my main issue with the trans things was that he was trying to compare the struggle of LGBTQ

people with the struggle of black people which is they're not mutually exclusive issues but then the other issue is that he wasn't just comparing trans people to black people he was comparing trans people to black millionaires he was making this point of like oh you're punching down

I'm not punching down on trans people you're punching down on me and DaBaby and Kevin Hart But it's like, these motherfuckers have millions of dollars, they're fine Like don't act like the struggle of this might, you know, 1% of the population who's got- they're all killing themselves It's one of the worst populations for so many reasons, trans people Like that's equal to kevin hart not getting to host the oscars it's like who gives a fuck about kevin hart hosting the oscar doesn't matter and and the mistake he's making is he's comparing these like identity signifiers to uh things that

are just broadly more class oriented you know what i mean it's like well black guys have a rough time but trans people have rough it's like none of it matters. All that matters is, yeah, the gay community is largely more wealthy, right? They have a higher wealth than the black community. But he's not bringing it there. He's bringing it just based on skin color. And in that way, it loses all meaning, because DaBaby's fine. Kevin Hart's fine.

He's comparing apples and oranges. Yes. And he's acting as if he has a struggle when he fucking doesn't. He's totally cool. His life is amazing. Yeah, but even if he's black, he's got a great life. When comparing the struggle of black and LGBTQ,

you're saying he's not accounting for class. Yes. It says something different about Kevin Hart, and I actually think that this is important. I don't like the arguments to the contrary. He said that Kevin Hart, it's something Kevin Hart dreamed of his whole life. And I think that

people need to stop thinking that money is the only thing that can hurt somebody. That there are other disappointments. In other words, you could basically say that if somebody's rich, it doesn't matter what happens to them. Everything is fine. They have money. I do say that. Yeah, well, that's not the case. And someday you might have money,

and you'll realize that there's other things that can really hurt you. People kill themselves with millions of dollars in the bank. Kevin Hart, I mean, I think in a certain sense, it's the opposite. When you have millions of dollars like Kevin Hart, money doesn't even matter to you anymore.

That's taken care of. You need other things to motivate you. Rich or poor, everybody wants to be treated fairly poor, everybody wants to be treated fairly and everybody wants to be able to fulfill themselves. But that's not how I interpreted it.

That's what Chappelle said. Chappelle didn't talk about money. Chappelle talked about... That's a mistake he was making. Why is that a mistake? The way I interpreted Ismael's point is that the reason it might be that the gay community

seems to be more effective in getting their rights respected is because they're wealthier. They're an affluent community. They're an affluent community. That's how I interpret it. Yes, that's what I'm saying. And then it's like... They've always been an affluent community and they just started getting treated fair recently. The culture has become more accepting of people.

But not because they have money. That's why it's accelerated so much faster than the Black Society. It absolutely has everything to do of it. But not because they have money. But that's why it's accelerated so much faster than the black community. So it has nothing to do with it. It absolutely has everything to do with it. I mean, so what is it? Why do you think the gay community is getting more rights? Well, first of all, are they getting more rights?

Yeah, to be fair, that paradigm might not even be real. I don't know. Are they getting more rights? Yeah. And if, then the black community. And if so, why? They're not getting more rights

than the black community. Or more respect? Yeah, I mean, he had this one joke where he goes, call me girl, N-word, right, as a trans person saying that to him, which is exactly my point of like, Dave, that's not happening. Trans people aren't calling you the N-word and demanding you call them a girl. He's creating, which all comedians do,

he's inventing and fabricating this sort of dilemma that doesn't exist just so that he can have something to rage against. That's the other thing I didn't like about it. All he's doing is

he's doing that thing comics do when you get into a beef with, like, a random community or a random company, and you keep the bit going. That's all he's doing. He's keeping the bit going. And it just happens to be

about a thing that a lot of people care way too much about. I don't know. I've got to listen to work more carefully. I will sum up with an analogy that, no, I'm probably not going to want to touch this, but I think Chappelle, not Attell, I think Chappelle's brilliance lies more in the music

than in the lyrics. And I'll just leave it at that. Islam. I agree with that. Thank you, Ismail. Can I say one more thing about the turf thing? Because this is the thing. I thought I put a nice button point, but go ahead.

Because, first of all, so one of the arguments that I had with Periel, and you can tell me what you think about this, Ismail, because this is a good delineation of this issue. Many people feel that, and this is where the resentment of the homosexual community and the trans community sometimes

arises. They feel that, as a heterosexual man, cis male that I am, I should not care whether the female that I'm with has a penis or not. And that's where they really lost me.

And that's where I said, well, no. As a matter of fact, I'm the opposite. I don't care if the person I'm sleeping with identifies as a man. I don't care if she's having the best homosexual experience of her life. I'm attracted to the biological gender. I'm not attracted to the psychology. Well, what if the... And they will tell you,

that makes me transphobic. Well, some of them might tell you. Yeah, well, the left side of that world will feel strongly about this. I've read this over and over again. I think it's just all a matter of definitions. Definitions are what human beings have decided that they are. Language is man-made.

So we can define women however we want to. Perrielle chooses to define it her way. Noam chooses to define it his way. And I don't think either of you are wrong or right. My point is this. For saying things such as what I'm saying, and Peril knows me well enough and she knows actually how close I am with some trans people,

to say that they will define Chappelle for saying similar things as anti-trans. And his point is like, I'm not fucking anti-trans. I just don't have to sign on the dotted line to every single point of view about this complicated issue that i might not

agree with but that's all it's like you know i don't have to agree like so so that's as by analogy there was a guy a professor at mit got suspended this week there's an article in the land about it because he's like a science professor or something nothing to do with this in another context he said he didn't support affirmative action. And he got suspended. So now, this is similar, you can't have that opinion anymore. Because if you utter that opinion,

you can lose your job, even if what you're teaching has nothing to do with racial politics. This is establishing state-approved opinions. And this is what Chappelle is fighting against. And that's why I think it's so wrong-headed

to worry about the particulars of what he's talking about. The point is that people should say whatever the fuck they want to say. And stop calling them names. If you can dispute his argument, can dispute his argument dispute his argument

yeah i mean we i agree with you that nobody should give a fuck about any of this but also why i mean he can see what everyone's is a but people consider they want to say about him at this on the same token right but they should look at yourself but they just tell it off your neck as long as without the pressure of of of of of consequence no dv the final talk. Accountability is the

popular. You need accountability. We don't need accountability for what people say. Especially not, I don't know, I mean, it's like, it's fucking comedy. Like, hello? Isn't that the whole point? Even if it's not comedy. No, two topics that you get to choose because we're running out of time.

California has made it mandatory to have an ethnic studies course to graduate high school, or we can discuss the fact that Ismael's mother is a white woman who converted to Islam. Those two don't seem related. They're not related. They're two topics that I'm wondering which Noam would prefer to address because we only have like 15 minutes, I guess. We have time for both. Okay, Is, Israel's mother

is a white woman that converted to Islam. What do you think of that? Yeah. Right? She's just a, what ethnicity? She's a white woman.

She's a Caucasian from Connecticut. Well, I'm from Connecticut. Oh, Irish Catholic. We're in Connecticut. Nagatuck. That's up the line. Yeah.

But the point is, did she convert with conviction or with desire to nab the Syrian stallion himself? Abdul Lufti, or whatever your father's name is. Yasser Lutfi. Yasser. She converted two years after marrying him. So they had already had a baby.

Were you that baby? No, no. I was born. I'm the youngest of five. Oh, wow. This was a decade before I was born. Yeah, had already had a baby. Were you that baby? No, no. I was born, I'm the youngest of five. Oh, wow. This was a decade before I was born. Yeah, she converted in like 84. That's a small family for Islam, but go ahead. Irish and Islam, you ought to have 12

kids. Exactly. So yeah, she converted two years in, and she would tell you, she came from, she was a very religious Catholic. She was almost a nun before she met my dad. So she tells me that, you know, and the story is,

and of course, every family has a mythology. You don't know if it's how real it is or how true any of it is. But she says that she was genuinely converted. She's a true convert.

He's skeptical of his own mother. Hey, I'm just being upfront. I'm skeptical of most converts because to me, religion is nonsensical. So, but if you're born with it, I understand. I understand if you're born with it, but for somebody later in life to say you know what I've read the Bible but this Muhammad yeah I

think he's the I think he is the Prophet yeah you know if you I mean well if you're coming from it from another religion it's actually easier she came she was already a very devout Catholic yeah I think it's easy to transition we're talking about it's all but what would have convinced her that Jesus is not the Messiah, but Muhammad is the prophet? Yasser Lutfi convinced her. M.D. I mean, because there's no evidence for either. So I'm just wondering...

There is evidence. It's called the Holy Quran. I don't know if you've picked it up recently, Dan. It's not evidence. Well, in any case, so she You're going to get a fatwa on our fucking head. It's faith.

She is still married to your father. My father is a dead person. She is not married to him, but she was married to him up until he died. Until the end. And she is still, after the marriage, because I've seen a lot, and she's still practicing Muslim. Hijab, everything.

You know, it's funny, she's still practicing Muslim. Hijab, everything. The hijab. Wow. You know, it's funny. She's the most Irish-looking lady, but when she puts on the hijab, which she does every day, people think she's Pakistani. People, if you wear a hijab, people think you're from the Middle East. Is that an N95 hijab?

Yeah, she's got the blue, the burqa, the whole thing. You know, I know an Irish guy. I think he's Irish. His name is Yisrael Campbell, and he lives in Israel. And he, I guess he's, as I said, the whole thing. You know, I know an Irish guy. I think he's Irish. His name is Yisrael Campbell. And he lives in Israel. And he, I guess he's, as I said, Irish, I'm not sure, or maybe English. And he is a Hasid. But, you know, converted.

And he has a beard and a black hat. And you don't look at him and say, that guy doesn't look. He looks, because once you see that beard and the black hat and everything, all the accoutrements, he looks, you know, maybe not as Jewish as some, but you don't think to yourself, oh, that doesn't look like that. That's right. You know, it just, so you're saying with your mother, once she was a hijab on, everybody's like, oh, okay.

I mean, I look at her and I see a white lady, but people are ignorant. And also she lives in Florida, so everyone's kind of stupid. But your relationship with Islam, I get the sense, is sort of a detached one. I wouldn't say that. I'm pretty, for a comedian, I'm pretty... I'm religious. I pray. You pray, okay. And you eat halal, strictly halal?

I eat a version of halal. There's a difference of opinion on halal in American... You pray five times a day? I pray five times a day, yeah. Almost. Sometimes I miss, but... I respect. I mean, like, that's...

And you don't drink? Is alcohol forbidden? Oh, very forbidden. It's one of the biggest no-nos. I never drank appreciated and you don't drink is alcohol forbidden oh very forbidden it's one of the biggest no-nos I never drank so you don't drink never have never will

wow you really are hardcore pretty much and you're looking to marry just apropos of what we were just discussing when it comes time to getting down oh I'm married oh you are married

I have a white wife but white but is she Muslim she's non-Muslim but she's she's on the path she's. But she's on the path. She's working on it. She's on the path to righteousness. Just trying.

What's her background? She's a white Florida girl, agnostic, brought up, no religion, tattoos. Man, what a time, right? The saddest thing is that, dude, January and February were the best months of my life. So good. Weren't they unbelievably good months? So fun.

I was doing a bunch of shows. I was in good clubs. I got married. It's the third one I said, but I got married. Yes. I got married to the love of my life, and then a week later, we had to be together 24-7 for several months the way God wanted.

The ideal situation for marriage is always near each other so we don't die. All right. It's fine. We're getting in dumb fights. Like, we recently got into a pretty heated debate about whether or not Sherlock Holmes actually did opium. Have you guys had this fight? Yeah, classic couple fight, right?

Me and my wife, we were getting heated. I was like, babe, he didn't actually do opium. They just wrote that about him to make him seem grittier and darker and edgier than he really was. And my wife was like, no, honey, of course he did opium. It was fucking everywhere. It was all over London. It ran the streets. Everybody did opium my wife was like, no, honey, of course he did opium. It was fucking everywhere. It was all over London. It ran the streets. Everybody did opium.

I was like, hey, okay, lady, if he was doing opium, how the hell was he solving those mysteries, all right? We looked it up. Turns out Sherlock Holmes, not a real person, a fictional literary character from a book, didn't do opium, didn't do the mysteries, actually. Didn't do opium. Didn't do the mysteries, actually. Didn't do anything.

Pretend. Ah, right. You had an Indian wife. That's kind of cool. She's Indian, but she identifies as Puerto Rican. She doesn't. She identifies as half and half.

What kind of Indian? North or south? You know, East Indian. East? Bengal? I mean, East Indian. East? Bengal? I mean, East India. South Asia. South India.

Oh, wow. No, but like the south of India or the north of India? Because I think there's a thing. No, well, I don't know because they came then to Trinidad and then to America. Oh, okay. So she's like the Guyanese, Trinidad-y, South American. But they're 100% Indian. Great.

They did a 23 and me. Oh, yeah. Half Puerto Rican, half Indian, right? Is that... Yeah, but like she grew up in like the Hindi services. She had a dot. There's pictures of her with a dot on her head as a little girl. My community growing up was Guyanese.

I have developed a... Wow. That's interesting. Guyanese-Palestinian. Guyanese and Palestinian. Who's Guyanese-Palestinian? My community that I grew up with. I have developed a... Wow, that's interesting. Guyanese-Palestinian. Guyanese and Palestinian. Who's Guyanese-Palestinian? My community that I grew up with. I have developed a fever for Indian women.

Oh, my God. Oh, wow. That's pretty hot. I mean, an appreciation that I performed a few years ago for M. Night Shyamalan's father's 80th birthday party, and you should have seen the ladies that were present at this event, I must tell you i think that's what sparked the sparked the when was this about four years five years ago what

movie was this was out at that point it wasn't a movie it was just i mean you didn't have it out they might have had a movie i don't i don't pay i stopped paying attention after six cents oh damn he's had some really hired me to perform for his father who turned 80 years old and i don't know why they hired me they have money money. They could have hired Aziz. But why are they hiring a Jewish guy? Maybe that was like the Shyamalan twist. Everyone thought Aziz was coming out, and then you come. That's funny.

That was good. It started off a little rough, but then I started getting into the Jewish-Indian, how the similarities there, you know. I think I've recovered but in any case would you like to briefly discuss California the new law I think he wants to go no I just want to can I use the restroom real quick yeah but you need a combination oh sorry it's open you're not gonna listen to so I want to say a few things about you and you know where'd you get that so um to the left yeah well i guess we can start uh in in florida i mean in california there's a new law um i can google it but the bay the basics

are that to graduate the reading writing and arithmetic has been has been and another r has been added race uh you now have to have a course in ethnic studies in order to graduate. What is ethnic studies? Well, from what I've read, and Perry, if you want to do a little research as we're on the fly, if you wouldn't mind. From what I've read, it's talking about things I didn't read. I don't have any details, but things like Black Matter the Indian the American Indian experience Asian immigration um you know how much of it is is um basically um you know um talking about the evils of white people I don't know or just how much of it is just appreciating other cultures I I don't know. California's first

state to require high school ethnic studies. Yeah, I mean, I don't have any on the face of it. I don't have any problem with that. That's what they teach. I mean, you could probably more than five years of intense scrutiny and effort. California on Friday became the first state to make ethnic studies a required class for high school graduation to help students understand the past and present struggles of and contributions of black asian latino native indigenous americans and other groups not jews experience racism and marginalization in america not jews well and and i think this is i think i remember that there was there was a lot of controversy about the curriculum because it had some really uh uh sketchy things to say about Jews. Now, maybe they've corrected them all, but, you know, just when you correct it,

it doesn't really ring out. I mean, you're still giving yourself away. When you want to put those things in, you can go back and read what it was that it said about Jews in Israel. But once you, just because you've taken them out, it doesn't change the fact that you wanted them in. It's kind of like when they took out some stuff out of the voting laws. Yeah, they took it out, but they wanted it in. You can't really cover up. But on the face of it, I think it's very healthy.

It's good that people learn about each other's cultures, right? Well, I mean, American history, last I checked, is a requirement for high school students. I took it in the 11th grade. I don't know if that's universal. But, you know, to the extent that this can be integrated into American history, I mean. What was the thing again, sir? Ethnic studies is now a requirement to graduate high school in California.

And what is that? It's the first state to pass it as a requirement to graduate high school in california and what is that first state to pass it as a requirement and i'm trying to i'm trying to what does ethnic studies mean what the curriculum also reportedly includes lesson plans on jewish americans arab americans sikh americans and armenian americans that's good i think it's armenian america it says that it's basically to help students understand the past and present struggles and contributions of black, Asian, Latino, native indigenous Americans and other groups that have experienced racism and marginalization in America. I mean, it sounds like it sounds to me like the emphasis is going to be on on white people doing bad things. Now, that may not be the case, but that's the sense that I get.

Well, I mean, is that unreasonable? I mean, I think it is. I don't know. I'm a little bit... I mean, this is why I say I'm not woke. I'm so over any of the identity politics in general, the ethnic studies, all this stuff. It feels like society reacting to last summer in a way that's not really productive.

It's not really. What are the material gains from kids have in class now? Well, I think they learn about fucking. I mean, I think that I think that when I was in high school and I learned American history. I mean, you learn that Christopher Columbus discovered America and we, you know, saved the day or whatever it was. I mean... Saved what day? Well, I mean, we discovered America and we created this country and you don't learn about what happened to the Native American people. Who didn't learn what happened to Native Americans?

I read Bury My Heart and Wounded Knee in the fifth grade. Well, I don't know. In public school in New York. I did not. Well, you grew up in New York. I think most America, they're learning Christopher Columbus sailed the ocean blue in 1492. Well, he did sail the ocean blue in 1492. Right, and then he proceeded to rape four million people.

He didn't rape four million people. He didn't have that kind of stamina. He got it in. I mean, if he had done that, he certainly... If he had a bigger statue than he's got, that would certainly be an achievement. That was Bill Cosby. Listen, the Columbus thing is silly, but go ahead.

I don't recall what we learned about Columbus, but I think it was pretty clear that the Indians suffered, and that they basically didn't exist anymore. Certainly slavery was taught. That wasn't dropped under the rug. The history of the world in terms of the intersection, interface between different tribes everywhere and anywhere on planet Earth that it went on is bloody and brutal.

Columbus is, well, not Columbus, but what happened between the European world and the indigenous people here is probably mild compared to any number of examples. I think I got it. Hold on, let me give you an example. 500,000 Syrians, your Syrian descent, right? 500,000 Syrians were slaughtered just a few years ago in the 21st century. That is, what Columbus did is nothing compared to that. Well, okay, I would disagree. But, well, in terms of how inappropriate it is given the time and place we are in history.

In other words, this is 500,000 people slaughtered today. And we're focusing on Columbus as a thing. This is a total distortion of a sensible view of what you can actually expect of the world. Columbus is historic because he set out from Europe, and this is an inflection point in history. When he landed in Hispaniola or wherever it was, from that grew the Western world. Period.

That's why we celebrate him. So I agree with some of that. Most of it, I think, is wrongheaded. So let's just say this it is a district so i'm sure my wrong about so i i hate the charleston i'm the most anti-bashar and i have to listen my family father was was against was in opposition against him had flee syria i hate the char so much right so i don't disagree with you that humans are

capable of of evil disarming local we did in afghanistan the political iraq we the baby now we americans you know we do we will shit all the time genocided indonesia million people were terrible right you know that's human nature you're right the unique situation with columbus specifically is that the catholic church actually had him brought back uh... europe for committing atrocities he He was, in his own time, viewed as a monster, right? Which we don't really learn about.

I didn't know that. Yeah, you can look it up. He was brought back in chains for some of the atrocities he committed. And furthermore, the shit that happened in the New World under the tutelage of the Europeans, was so brutal that it was so precise and perfect in its elimination process that, I mean, how many Native Americans do you know in North America, for example? I mean, that's a little bit beside the point because he didn't come to North America.

But it was so brutal that it caused Africans to be brought here as slaves. There was a guy, I can't remember his nickname, he was like Francisco something. He was one of these little Mexican priests, or Spanish priests, who was so repulsed by the way Native Americans were treated that he wrote the Pope this letter that was like, we need to show some Catholic mercy to these natives and bring over a bunch of African slaves.

The two are directly linked, the genocide of natives and bring over a bunch of African slaves. The two are directly linked, the genocide of natives and the Atlantic slave trade. So here's the thing about, Columbus is from history.com. Columbus governance of Hispaniola could be brutal and tyrannical. Native islanders who didn't collect enough gold

could have their hands cut off and rebel Spanish colonists were executed. But this is, he didn't invent these. It's like saying that scalping was invented just for when white people got there. Well, it actually was, but... What? It was.

No, it was in America. You think Indian tribes didn't fight? You think African tribes didn't take each other into slavery? This is not... Oh, no, no. Yeah, I agree. People did evil things, but I think the Europeans, they brought it to...

I mean, you know, it was a time and a moment meeting where... I'll refer you again to how many hundreds of thousands of Muslims have died in the Middle East in the last five years. Right, and all that stuff. And that alone ought to be enough to totally humble any judgment of 600 years ago. Right, but of course, the scope is completely different now. The population of the world is completely different now there's no population now we have united now in the night elation of the world is so much broader it is not greater brutality that's going on now of countries that actually have representatives on the human rights

commission in the united nations right we these people we are judging fourteen hundred the year fourteen hundred and saying this is how could they how could they know we we doing it today. They still have slavery in Africa. Sure. We still have slavery in America. No, we don't have slavery in America.

We do. It's just illegal, but we have it. No. There is a slave trade that goes on in Africa still today. We know this. And not throughout. In Mauritania, I think. Sure.

As Coleman says, we're more concerned about slavery in the 1800s than we are about slavery psychologically. We're more bothered by that than we are bothered by who talks about slavery going on today. Nobody even talks about it. People do talk about it, but the thing is that the impact of it on generations of people has... I don't tell that to the people in Mauritania. Sure, and that's the thing. I don't live in Mauritania. I don't live in Mali. I don't live in Spain.

Anyway, Native Islanders. So colonists complained to the monarchy about mismanagement, and a royal commissioner dispatched to Espanola, arrested Columbus in August 1500, brought him back to Spain in chains. Although Columbus was stripped of his governorship, King Ferdinand not only granted the explorer his freedom, but subsidized a fourth voyage.

So that's, who knows. So it's mismanagement. You know how shitty you gotta be in the fucking 15th century for people to be like, you're under arrest for human rights violations. But no, it doesn't say anything here about being under arrest for human rights violations. It's under arrest for probably

not enough money coming back. And you being a communist, you probably respect that. It all comes down to money in the end, right? Sure, of course it does. You don't really believe they arrested him for human rights, do you? I mean, maybe they did. In a time of slave trade?

I've read things that they did arrest him for the brutality he was shooting. Yeah, but you have to be very careful what you read about Columbus. All right, yeah. I'll read history.com, like you. The History Channel. Everyone knows that. It's not from the National Review. But it was just the first thing that came up.

But Columbus is a highly political topic now. And like, you know, the New York Times 16, what is it? 1619 Project. Yeah, 1619 Project. Yeah, 1619 Project. Left-wing historians have taken a lot of these things to task. Yeah, and I don't know if a lot of these things turn out not to be true. All right. But actually, I don't think we disagree too much.

But the Columbus thing, I think, is just... I mean, look how... Muhammad had slaves, right? No, he didn't. He freed slaves. It's one of the greatest deeds in Islam, is to free a slave. He had slaves. That were freed. That he freed, yeah. He freed all his slaves?

I'm pretty sure. May peace be upon him. Yeah, I mean... I don't think so. You're right in the fact that we can't look at history the same way that we live today. Because, yeah, history is very, very different, clearly. I mean, yeah, I don't disagree with that. And for most of the Eastern world, so the world that excludes Europe, slavery was an institution not dissimilar to i'd say like the prison system that

we have it was it was viewed socially as one of these like evils that's just a part of life where it becomes tricky is when europeans start using it as this you know a booster to capitalism in the early uh uh 15th century that's when that's when it takes on this extra nefarious sort of uh tone and it suddenly takes on this racial tone it becomes this issue of you know white supremacy over orientals and blacks and mongoloids etc that's when we start getting race science etc etc so yeah no i'm not saying that we need to look at all of history through a you know 2021 lens because then we're not going to have anybody that we like. All right, and now he's

looking at his phone. I listened to everything you said, and I agree with you about everything you just said. I'm curious because I've always heard that Muhammad had slaves, and now I'm wondering if I was misinformed. No, I mean, I know Obama, peace be upon him.

It says slavery was a social fact in most of the Muslim world for nearly 1,400 years. That's for sure. Yeah. With large numbers of slaves employed. I mean, so, again, are we going to turn this eye? So are you going to admit that you were wrong? Wrong about what? About the Bahamut Peace People.

Oh, I can't find it. I will admit it. Oh, you can't find it. Okay. I can't find it because I was looking for it, but then you called me out for looking at my phone, so I got nervous. Oh, sorry. But I will find it. I don't mean to make you nervous.

But either way, what is clear is that the Islamic world was knee-deep in slavery, and I don't judge them for that. And I'm saying, and I don't expect them, and I don't expect to go to an Islamic country and see statues of great figures in Islamic history and expect them to take these statues down because it turns out that these people had slaves. Yeah. I think that would be silly. I agree. And I think it's silly, equally silly,

in our own history to view Columbus that way. That's what I'm saying. And I think it's silly, equally silly, in our own history, to view Columbus this way. That's what I'm saying. And by the way, and they won't. No other nation would do that. I think it's appropriate with Confederate soldiers. That's a different matter. Why? Why is that different? Because they were traitors

to the country. They're enemies of the state. And we also know that many of these statues were put up spitefully as an opposition to the Civil Rights Movement. It's nothing like Columbus. But I mean, where does the state factor into it? I mean, Christopher Columbus had no...

He had never even heard of the United States. He died before the English even came. So what does the state have to do with any of this? He's a pivotal figure in our history. Right. And so were the Confederates. But not memorialize. We're memorializing his voyage.

I think we're basically on the same page. I'm just of the view that if the population of a city doesn't want a Columbus statue, they should fucking take it down. That's up to a city. That's up to the politics. But there is something about the shallowness of not realizing that this is a bottomless pit because you are not going to find anybody in the 14 or 1500s that cuts the mustard.

And it's also worth noting that the people, many of the people who are after this, would never think of putting that same magnifying glass on their own home countries or home cultures. Nobody's going to go ask them to take down a statue of Mahatma Gandhi in India because of the things that we found out that Gandhi did. This is just not going to happen. And nor should it happen. Yeah, I agree. I think it's stupid. I think the history revision, you know, it's a little...

I don't see what the point is really. What's the material gain? What is gain? What's appropriate is to learn, as grown-ups we should all strive to be, that people are complex and hypocrites and inconsistent, and Gandhi was a great hero, and had

also a dark side that we should learn about. And other people, they all did. Jefferson, I mean, they're all, this is, we're grown-ups here. Just take down on, pretend that the first good person was born in 1975.

That's crazy. It's really crazy when you think about it. I just think it's dumb, the whole thing. I don't even think it's crazy. I think it's people are just reacting. They don't have very many avenues to engage with their rage at the system and their rage at this country

and what's going on. So they pick these sort of little proxy wars where they'll go, I'll take down a statue. But I agree, it doesn't affect any change. It's symbolic. It's a symbolic win. Yeah. And it's stupid.

Okay, I guess that takes us to... Happy indigenous people. By the way, people are upset about indigenous people. See, I'm very inclusive. I like these things. I like ethnic studies. I like indigenous people. I have no...

I think these things. I like ethnic studies. I like indigenous people day. I have no, I don't, I think these are nice. I mean, America is becoming totally mixed race and, and like, so we should embrace that. It's positive aspects. Sure. It's the negative,

it's the, it's the negative stuff that I, I think is counterproductive and also very cherry-picking. It's like just attacking this group. This guy did that. This guy did that as if nobody of your color, I'm just being figurative, did the same thing. It's like, let's just all stipulate that there were fucked

up people of every race and color in the 14, 15, 16, 17 hundreds. Right. And then let's just move on and start redistributing wealth. I agree with you. Let's redistribute wealth. Let's love each other and appreciate each other's cultures.

Yes. Let's, you know, right? Sure. We don't have to... Dan, you look offended. No, no, I'm just... Dan agrees, I think. Yeah, sure, I agree.

I just figure it's a good... I don't want to... I like to keep it tight. Okay. The quest is the point. So I will end there. And thank you, Ismail Lutfi. Ismail, do you have anything going on

that people should know about? Ooh, I have a Comedy Central half hour coming out. It's going to be in a few months, so I don't even know if this is appropriate timing. I'm supposed to have lunch with Anand... I can't pronounce his last name. With Anand? Oh, Jerry Hardass or whatever? It's a hard name to pronounce.

It's a real hard one. Yeah, he was on our podcast one time. We had a fight. Oh, yeah? And then I said, let's go out to lunch sometime. And then I didn't hear back from him. And then a couple months ago, he said, listen, why don't we have that lunch sometime?

Oh, hell yeah. He's a great guy. Yeah. I like people like that. And then the Delta variant hit. So I'm going to hit him up again to have lunch. Do it. Maybe you want to join us.

Yeah, maybe. You can see Ismail Lutfi at the Comedy Cellar on a regular basis. You can see me at the Comedy Cellar on a regular basis as well. And you can buy my book, Iris Spiro Before COVID, still available. What's it called? On Iris Spiro Before COVID. On Amazon.com. And you can buy Perry L's books.

The only bush I trust is my own and on my knees. Similarly on Amazon.com. Oh, follow me. It's smile. Lutfi. It's smile. Lutfi.

Dot com. Call me on Instagram. It's on Instagram. It's male. Dot Lutfi on Instagram. Beautiful podcast at comedy seller.com for comments, suggestions, questions, ideas. Noam, have we gotten any? Not lately.

Could we always give the email to him? I guess that's it. We'll see you next week. Who do you have scheduled for next time? Apparently anybody? We have Rick. Rick Wakeman. Rick Wakeman is our next guest.

Yes. I'll be the roundabout so for all you music fans be sure to tune in to that we'll see you next time bye bye bye bye