The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Glenn Loury Bonus Episode

Episode Date: April 3, 2022

A CONVERSATION highlighting the role of comedy as a political, moral and analytic tool in our time: Taboos are everywhere. Plain facts are being denied. Arguable propositions are foisted on us as if they were certainties. Decorum and politeness sometimes blind us or intimidate us or deceive us. The comic makes us laugh, for sure. But, in that act he also creates space for saying the unsayable. He has "plausible deniability." He can be a truth teller, a liberator, a sage... Featuring: Glenn Loury: Professor of Economic and Professor of International and Public Affairs, Brown University. Host of The Glenn Show podcast. He is among America’s leading critics writing on racial inequality. Roland Fryer: Harvard Economist, Macarthur "Genius" Fellow, Time 100 Honoree, McDonalds Employee of the Month specializing in Race and Education. Standup Comedian. Coleman Hughes: Writer, podcaster, rapper, and multi-instrumentalist who specialises in issues related to race, public policy and philosophy. Noam Dworman: Owner of the Comedy Cellar

Ladies and gentlemen, please put your hands together and make some noise for Professor Glenn Lowry! In the house at the Comedy Cellar. I mean, I'm just a professor, you know. They didn't teach us this in graduate school. But good evening everybody. Glenn Lowry, Brown University. I am with Roland Fryer, Harvard University, Coleman Hughes, extraordinary musician, podcaster, and writer, Columbia University graduate, and our host, Norm. The theme tonight is comedy and politics. Now I came to this from many years of trying to write about race and racial inequality issues in America and finding that there were third rails. There was stuff that you couldn't say. There was a lot of political correctness. There's a lot of self-censorship. And I have this idea.

My idea, and we'll see what my colleagues here think about it here at the Glenn show I don't think I said that that's my that's my platform that's my podcast newsletter at sub stack and you can find a YouTube channel Glenn Lowry show but trying to talk about these issues in a way that opens up some space for exchange of ideas for grappling with the stuff that we really have to grapple with if we're going to get to be up in a better place and for let some air into the room the stifling suppression of debate and open discussion leads to a limiting of our own ability to think about the issues that

we're confronted with. And I see comedy, I mean, again, I don't know what my esteemed colleagues will say about this, and I certainly don't know what you comics out there are going to say about this. We're going to find out. I see comedy as a way out, as a way to open up the room, as a way to get some honesty into the discussion. It's a way to have some debates. Now, my mouth is not a prayer book, but I do have some ideas. Here's

some things that I wish comics would help us talk about. Male-female cooperative and non-exploitative relationships in the workplace have been undermined to women's detriment by the Me Too movement. I don't agree with that. Wait a minute, I got it from you.

That's a fair point. Trump wasn't wrong about everything. There really are some shithole countries. You'd remember if you'd ever been in one. Trump wasn't wrong about everything. There really are some shithole countries. You'd remember if you'd ever been in one. And the Democrats have been running some of the cities where a lot of black people live into the ground for decades. Here's another one, folks. Embrace yourselves. I'm sorry. Putin has some legitimate grievances which we have ignored in part at our peril because of the Russia collusion hoax.

Yeah, I know. I know. Okay. You see some black guys up here, right? We're only like 5% into this list, so... Buckle up. Blacks suck at IQ tests. Jews don't.

It really matters. Here's an easy one. Mazel tov. Here's an easy one. Mazel tov. Here's an easy one. Our collective response to the COVID pandemic has had elements of an irrational moral panic. Yeah. Now, an English professor whom I know and respect told me there's a difference between when you say something and they clap and when you say something and they laugh. He said, remember you're in a comedy club, so I'm going to try to keep that in mind.

Okay, maybe one more. Well, maybe two more. Major elements of Black Lives Matter are full of shit and undeserving of the mantle of the civil rights movement. Yeah, I know, I know. It's hard. And by the way, all I'm suggesting is let's talk about this stuff. This is not really my opinion.

I'm not actually saying this. These are just things that I think only a comic could get away with saying. We need to talk, along with Dave Chappelle, about whether the transgender rights movement is normalizing mental illness. Here's my quote, and mind you now, I'm not actually saying these things. I'm just saying that if one were to say them, it could be done most effectively in the voice

of a comic. Smile when you say that has a deep meaning. My challenge to the real comics in this room is whether they agree with me or not, and I suspect they mostly don't, find ways of bringing considerations of these issues into the public consciousness. So that's what I'm trying to do here in this conversation, encourage us to engage with these issues into the public consciousness. So that's what I'm trying to do here in this conversation,

encourage us to engage with these issues. Can I bring up some of the comics, too, to join us? Absolutely. All right, so we have some fantastic comics here, all of whom I would say are pretty fearless. First of all is Andrew Schultz. He's in the podcast MTV's Guy Cove. He's also selling out Radio City Music Hall in two weeks.

When are you doing Radio City? In two weeks. In two weeks. April 16th. April 16th? What's your view on Black IQ, Andrew? Where are you supposed to sit? Andrew's supposed to sit over here.

This is the white one. This is the white one. Get the fuck off my bus. Is his mic working? Oh, you're in trouble already. See what happens to white voices? When black people start speaking up, that's better. Okay.

Shane Gillis, Comedy Central, Sirius XM. Hey! Almost, almost on SNL. We probably want to talk about that. Clap for Shane Gillis. Come on. Hey. Hey.

Hey, how are you? Can Shane come down here with me? I want to talk about black athletes. Yeah, hell yeah. Judy Gold. We have to update these credits. Judy has a book out about free speech, and it's not even on your credits.

Come on up, Judy. Judy. Woo! Judy! Judy! Judy! Judy! Shane didn't want to sit next to Andrew. And TJ.

Come on, TJ. You need more credits here. From Amazon Prime and Fox. TJ. Clap your hands, everybody. Give it up. Where is he? And also we have another comic who's here, last minute addition. His name is Mr. Rick

Chrome. And maybe Rick, maybe you come up and share the stool with me. I don't know. Come on up here, Rick. Where are you? I think he'd like that, actually. We might need another chair. Share the stool with you. Come on. Okay, now you have primary source material here, Glenn,

to discuss exactly what you want. Go ahead. Okay. You guys. Can we start with black IQ shit? Because that stuff's still going. Who wants to take that one up? I got it. But you're not black.

And you're not black. I don't know. I thought every premise you brought up was pretty good. Can you say it again? What was it? All the premises were good for stand-up. I mean, yeah. All right, whatever.

All right, well, let's take one of them and run with it well I'm not going to run as fast as you guys might but let me ask you guys what everybody I think Glenn I know wants to are you guys afraid to say things on stage

and is that a new phenomenon do you feel that you can do your career's damage by saying the wrong thing? I think maybe Shane, you go first because you did in some way have your career damaged. I got my career damaged from like a podcast where I think on

stage it's pretty hard for anything you say to be misconstrued as your joke. Clearly you're joking. You're trying to be funny. On a podcast, sometimes it doesn't look like you're trying to be funny. When I got in trouble, which I don't know if any of you guys remember that.

It's tough to tell whether or not you're joking. I assure you I was trying to. I don't have a racist podcast. It's a comedy podcast. I think on stage you're fine, right? I've never had... Like, sometimes people get upset but it's like, alright, whatever. Either that

was a bad set or fuck them. Has anybody been cancelled for a joke? On stage? Yeah, Michael Richards got cancelled. But that wasn't a joke. He just screamed your favorite word. Right, but like...

Whose favorite word? My favorite word? My favorite word? Could be. Here's a question for the comics, though. If audience members... A woman was talking. The one woman

who is representing this panel. The thing you're referring to was a repeat of a song. I was trying... This is about taking things out of context. I just want to say, Glenn warmed us up.

Did you say the N-word? No, I did say the N-word. This is really good. I didn't know! No, I did. I did say the N word. This is really good. I didn't know. No, I did. I did say. Say it. Say it.

No, I didn't. I didn't say it. I said it in repeating lyrics of a song. I said it repeating lyrics of a song. Okay. Did you add it, or were those the actual lyrics? Sweet. Honestly, hold on.

Hold on. Be honest. Be honest. Can we let Glenn... Did you take some indulgences a little? You should have never brought us here. Here's the thing. Can I just... Roland, go ahead. I have nothing to say. This is interesting. Right.

I just want to say that when you opened, you opened with these premises that you think that comedians should be able to deal with on stage, correct? Right. And that's where you begin, and it's cultivating a joke and making material,

which we do in front of an audience, and we don't know where the line is until the audience tells us. And so you come with that premise. It's not funny. Nothing you said was funny. As you know, you got claps and no laughter. But it takes us a long time

to take that idea, which, as Shane said, those ideas are all brilliant premises for jokes. But the process is like no other art form. No artist paints a part of a mural and then brings an audience in and says okay what do you think? Should I move the sun over

here? Should I put a house here? Stand up comedy, the audience informs us and lets us know where the line is and we don't know where the line is 99.9% of the time until we've crossed it. And George Carlin said, it's the job of the comedian to cross that line and make you glad that they did.

So that's how I want to respond to that. Laughs. So if I could say something. I think sort of what brings the non-comics here, and I think the idea behind this event was Glenn has been

an economist in academia at various institutions for a rather long time now and as well as Roland, and is interested in asking questions that are taboo in academia but could easily be the premise of a joke that the same people canceling folks at colleges would laugh at if they were in a comedy club.

And the observation to draw from that is when we're arguing with people about politics or about ideas, there are these cognitive roadblocks we have in our minds that prevents us from seeing a good point on the other side. It's like you're arguing with someone, you're mad, they're a Democrat, you're a Republican, or vice versa. They say something that actually makes a lot of sense, but it just hits a roadblock in your mind because they're from a different, they have different politics than you, they're from a different place than different politics than you from there they're from a different place than you or they're speaking using words that grate

against you in a way words that offend you whereas you can take that same exact idea and if it's the premise of a really well-crafted joke that's gone through that process then it it goes right around your roadblocks like like t PreCheck and it just hits you and you laugh. And laughter is involuntary. You can't be tampered with. It's unfakeable in a way that acknowledging someone's point in an

intellectual conversation in an intellectual space is not. And I think that's what is sort of the impetus for this idea. But... Clapping and no laughter. I'm not funny and I'm not going to try to...

But, you know, also, the premises you brought up, you know, comedy is a weapon. It is a weapon. How is it a weapon? Here's how it is. 1934. Hitler, very funny guy. Laugh.

Hitler passed this act called the Treachery Act in 1934, where you were not allowed to make fun of the Third Reich or him, or you would be murdered. And so, you know, the fact is that he couldn't take it. Trump couldn't take the White House Correspondence Center. He forbade his staff to attend the White House Correspondence Center. You know, there's something very powerful about,

and smart, we're all smart. Everyone on this fucking, everyone who's comedian is smart. I think all smart. Everyone on this fucking... I think that makes those guys pusses. It doesn't make comedy a weapon. It is a weapon. They can't handle it. They are pusses. Right. Because comedy... The weird thing, though, is that Trump was funny. As politicians ago, he was one of the funnier ones.

I didn't find him funny. He was funny. He was funny. How was he funny? Every time he speaks, you laugh. Literally the definition of funny. He was funny.

Funny for a comedian. He was very, yes, he was. China. China, yes. It's just saying the word. He's funny. Let's just be honest. Let's agree on that.

And then you can say maybe you didn't like the jokes, but it was funny. Yes, Pocahontas was also funny. Yes, he did. Everything was funny. He was hilarious. But he came from a place of hate. So I don't know. I hate him.

What are you talking about? He's funny too. Wait. Why did he come from a place of hate when he made jokes? I think he's a hateful person. I don't think he's a nice person. Let's not get stuck on the phone. But that's it.

I just don't like him. I think his intent is not... I'm not saying he's not a hateful guy. Say like an insult comic kind of secretly hates his audience, but he's hilarious and no one cares. Don Rickles. Don Rickles, people would leave his show

and if they didn't get picked on, they would feel that they were gypped. Which is a word we're not allowed to say. So you can't say gypped because of the gypsy. They were Roma. But I'm just saying. He would never make it now because we have

decided that that's not funny. He's funny. People still laugh at him. I think he's hilarious. I think he'd make it now. I don't know. I have a question for whoever would know the answer. Judy would know. How have audiences changed?

There used to be a kind of social norm to accept different points of view. To just take it. That doesn't seem to be the social norm anymore. Right. Now the norm is that you shouldn't be saying that. Right. I think that what I've been doing stand-up for 40

I did my first set 40 years ago before you guys were born. And in those decades, okay, I mean I remember coming here in the 80s and we were so free. I mean literally it was it was amazing. the work that went on stage. No one, everyone was there to do the art.

And as social media happened, and people started taking things out of context, when everyone started getting a trophy, you get a trophy for winning the race and breaking the record, and you get a trophy for smiling while he did it. That's when everything changed. It's the fact that everyone thinks their opinion is valid because now they

all have a soapbox. It used to be you got offended at a joke and you moved on with your life. Now it's like you get offended by a joke and that person should never be able to perform again. I think that we are erasing history a lot or rewriting history or not acknowledging history. Stereotypes are based out of ancestry.

We could say things, but as we evolved, things had different meanings. So I think material changed as the times changed. But I think social media, the times changed but I think social media and thank you to the comedy cellar for telling people they have to put their fucking phones away when they get in here they have their phones by the way when I was mansplaining you before, I was going to ask you that question.

Other than Shane Gillis, it is difficult to think of examples off the top of my head of comics getting fired or getting cancelled for doing bits on stage. But how different do you think that would be if anyone could film any joke with

their phones? If places like this didn't have a no-phone policy and people were putting stuff on YouTube? Well, I think that's... I think a lot of people would be extra careful. I mean, I do. I don't care anymore, because, please. Is this a good thumbnail illustration of what's changed? In the 90s, the phrase politically

incorrect was a great marketing tool if you wanted to capture liberal America. Now that would be the kiss of death. Liberal America doesn't want a show called Politically Incorrect. There was a very successful show, Politically Incorrect. Who was that marketed to?

That was marketed to the liberals. We're going to talk about the stuff that no one wants to talk about. We're going to talk about gay people. We're going to talk about people of color. We're going to talk about immigrants. We're going to talk about all this stuff. And now I think both the right and the left are losing this battle. And it really kind of sucks.

Rick, you got something? You got something you want to say? Oh, you're just bringing me up. I'd like to begin with a land acknowledgement. We are on the land originally occupied by the Lenape people. They were a tribe that occupied Manhattan and then they sold it to a Jewish tribe.

The Fakakta people. My pronouns are he, him, wait, what? Thank you. That was helpful. Definitely move the conversation. No? Okay. Can I add something to this?

I think, I don't know if people have gotten... People want to be good people, right? Which means sometimes you get dumber because you want to be a good person. You just want to follow whatever people tell you is the good thing to do. So you do it.

So now I think there's an idea out there where if you joke about something, people would think that means you endorsed that thing. You know what I mean? Like, Bill Cosby wasn't known for rape jokes. He never joked about them, but he fucking loved rape. You know what I mean? So just because you talk about a shitty thing in the world, it doesn't mean you endorse that thing. It just means it's out there.

We got to talk about it because the only way we have is fucking comedy. You know what I mean? No, you're making a great point. We shouldn't even be on stage together. You guys and us should never talk. Why is that? Because you guys say things that are true. And we say things that are funny.

And when those things bleed into one another, the stakes get too high. You asking about black IQ, now you're implying the joke that Shane or I'm going to make is how I actually feel about black IQ. I'm just going to say the funniest one. Right. And that's often wrong. You know what I mean? Yes. So if you want to talk about Me Too shit, the funniest joke is wrong.

Right? But we are social scientists. The funniest joke about the Me Too is that the Me Too movement stopped during the pandemic when women started making banana bread. I don't think that's the funniest. And they realized what they really wanted. I don't think that's funny. Which is to stay at home all fucking day

in the kitchen and clean. They were forced to stay inside and they loved it. Thank you. That is funny. But that's not right. They were forced to say inside, and they loved it. Thank you. You had to let me tag it. That is funny. But that's not right. But you're saying, Andrew,

It really does sound like you believe that. I have conviction. I have conviction. That's why it's dangerous. My wife has never been happier. I think TJ and Andrew are saying that it's about intent.

What is the intention? And when you take intention out of the equation, you're done. And that's what the audience does. That's what no one would say. The audience takes intent. If you murder someone and you go on trial for homicide,

your sentence is based on intent. What were you thinking? Did you mean to do it? And yet a comic doesn't get the same consideration. No one does. Right. No one does. That has nothing to do with comedy. But I think it has everything to do with comedy. Not just in comedy.

That's a problem. Right. I think it's a problem with everything. But I'm saying, you're saying, you know, the question about, you know, has the audience changed? Yeah, the audience now doesn't care about the comedian's intent. They only care about how they fucking feel about the joke. And that's the end of it.

Well, let me ask you a question about the intent thing. How much of it is the appearance that intent doesn't matter because corporations tend to buckle? And how much of it is the appearance that intent doesn't matter because corporations tend to buckle? And how much of it is the fact that people really, everyday people really dismiss things if the intent isn't there? So like Joe Rogan, I'm curious to know how you guys felt about the whole Joe Rogan thing. But Spotify didn't buckle and it kind of just went away. What network is the View on, ABC?

ABC, yeah. ABC kind of buckled with Whoopi Goldberg, I think, to their discredit. And now that's kind of stuck to her, where I thought they shouldn't have done anything about Whoopi Goldberg. They should have said, let her say what she wants. It's The View. If she learns something and wants to take it back, she's welcome to. If she stands by it,

she stands by it. What did Whoopi say? She said that the Holocaust wasn't about race. It was just a white people problem, so she's staying out of it. Which is pretty funny. Just hilarious. Isn't that what everybody's saying about Russia and Ukraine now?

Pretty much. And also she did everybody a favor by bringing it up, because a lot of people think that. That's an idea that's been bubbling up. Right, it was a learning experience. I mean, they brought the head of the Anti-Defamation League. But they paraded her out there. She did the hostage video.

She apologized. She did. And she suspended for two weeks. Is she reinstated? Is she back on? She's back on. They took her off for two weeks. She kind of went on Colbert and kind of was like, nah.

She doubled down. I kind of agree with everything I said earlier. Colbert had to be like, oh, well, how about that? All right. Yeah, it was great. I'd very much like to hear what Glenn's take on the whole Joe Rogan thing was. And by the way, it wasn't just that he said the N-word, but he made a comparison to Planet of the Apes,

which is exactly basically what Roseanne Barr got fired for, right? Yeah, the Planet of the Apes thing was a little problematic, I think. Problematic? Yeah, it was a problem. I mean, you know, you think apes, you see a bunch of black guys standing around, you think apes, you know, that's a little bit problematic.

I mean, I don't think it should be a cancelable offense, but I think an apology might be in order, and I think you did issue one, so it's all good. Likewise with Mubi Goldberg, which I took to be more ignorance than malice. I mean, she just didn't understand that Hitler was about race in his own way, just like, you know.

So, you know, that's what I think. But I want to get rolling into the conversation because he's one of the reasons that I'm here. When I learned that his research lab had a facility in it where he could show old tapes of Richard Pryor, Dave Chappelle doing comedy routines so that the graduate students and research assistants

would be stimulated to ask the right questions about social inequality. I thought, huh, comedy's got a bigger reach than I ever thought it could have. I'm just a comedy groupie. I mean, I think that the best social scientists in the world are on stages every night. And if you want to understand what a community is feeling, you should come to a comedy club, not come to Harvard's economics department. And so that's probably not so

surprising. But yeah, I showed those things because there's real things in there to actually test with data. When Richard Pryor talks about police brutality, he with data When you know when when Richard prior talks about police brutality He then says you know after a policeman beat you up The only thing you want to do is go home and beat your kids, so I thought hmm. We can test that That's pretty interesting And there's a bunch of things like that right Chris Rock Dave Dave Chappelle lots of folks are dealing with Way more interesting things on race than, frankly, our colleagues in these elite institutions are dealing with.

Do you know that when George Floyd was murdered, the following week the number seven download on Spotify was that exact bit from Richard Pryor? I didn't know that. Forty-something years old, that bit. The Jews were tracking the numbers. How can I profit off of this?

That's a good joke. Who gets hurt with that joke? Nobody gets hurt. I feel hurt. You do? Fuck no. Well, I think the truth is if this crowd were large enough,

eventually there would be at least one person in the crowd that actually really was hurt by that joke. And that's true. I think that's true of even the best jokes. So there's this idea that we basically have to comics, at least, have to adapt to

the most thin-skinned person in the room. What does it mean to be hurt by a joke? Well, I think you know it when you feel it. I mean, I felt this. It wasn't funny to you. It's a gut feeling. One time I was dating this girl.

She had an abortion. Don't worry. we broke up. Anyway, she and I went to a club together and the comic that was on stage was doing bad abortion jokes and I was sitting with her like... You know what I mean? I've been offended

but I'm not a pussy. I shut the fuck up about it. I wasn't going to be like, hey, cut it out. I knew that it was a joke. They did cut it out. That's a good joke. That's a great joke. That's not how they do it.

They don't cut it out. It was in rural Pennsylvania. They suck it out. They suck it out. That would have been funnier. You better scoop it off. Suck it out right now. But yeah,

I understand what one... But yeah, you've got to be quiet if you're the person that's like... But the question is how hurt? If you get hurt by a joke like if somebody does a joke about your grandmother dying and your grandmother just happened to die right the day before well you how absurd for you to think that comedian should have known that my grandmother died of course

that's that take that was in poor taste and I'll never patronize that comedy club again but now and that's their right if they would say I'm not gonna patronize that comedy club or see that comedian but now it's like and I'm gonna get everybody I know to make sure that comic never works again. Because he told a joke that hurt my feelings that only I knew about at the time. That's where the problem is. Right, that's social media, too. It's not so much the fact that you get yourself in trouble.

It's like, who else can I get to come along and hate that guy with me? That's what it's become. You know, my mother used to say, she'd hear her jokes, she'd go, oh, that's in poor taste. Remember, do you remember that phrase? Poor taste.

And that was the end of it, that Don Rickles, poor taste. Well, that's why he said, fuck you, mom. Motherfucker. Shut the fuck up. He just called the guy a hockey puck. Who got hurt with that?

No, but it's true. And people would get on with their lives. But now there's an agenda. Oh, you said something that hurts me. Now I must get my army together and make sure that person or that establishment goes out of business. And that, I think, is nuts. I think there's part of that.

I think the trickiest thing is the audience feeling discomfort laughing at things that they do believe are funny. I think that's the biggest difference. I'm not really worried. And, again, I operate maybe a little bit out of a system, so it's a little bit maybe different for me. I go to a show of mine, and people are there to hear the type of jokes that I do. They're not waiting to be canceled or whatever it is. But sometimes if I perform here, for example, I'll see people in the crowd. They want to laugh, but they're worried that they could be a pariah if they do.

And that is the heartbreaking thing because they're actually being a good person. They're going, if I laugh at this, could the trans person in the audience feel bad? Could the gay person in the audience feel bad? Could the woman in the audience feel bad? There's part of me that wants to go, oh, fuck them. But then there's other part of me that's like, you're kind of being a good person. I can't be angry at you

that you're a good person. I'm kind of angry that we're coddling each other so much and it's almost like we're infantilizing people as if the trans person can't take a joke, as if the gay person can't take a joke. That's just a function of just not having a diverse friend group.

That's really what that is. And I'm not saying that for class. For me as a comic, that is the greatest discomfort. Looking in your eyes and then seeing you hold back a laugh because of the environment. I talked to Gilbert Godfrey about this exact thing and he said, what

happens now, and I think everyone on the panel who's a comic can agree, is that laughter is involuntary. So you laugh, you're like, oh, that's fun, and then they go like this. That is what happens now. It's like, oh, right, I'm not supposed to laugh at that. And that sucks.

That, I think, sucks 150%. So that is unfortunate. But where did that come from? Who decided what people are supposed to laugh at and not laugh at? Where is that from? What part of the culture decided that? I guess we're reacting to public scrutiny. So the most scrutinized ideas or jokes or opinions are going to make us feel uncomfortable laughing up.

And again, it's our job as comedians to make the environment silly enough where we can laugh at these things. That's my failure. If I see you holding back a laugh, even if I think you should laugh at it and if you were at one of my shows you would be because you feel comfortable enough the reason I'm here is because I want to make the person who doesn't even know me feel comfortable enough laughing and that's on me I gotta find a way to make it sillier make it more absurd or whatever the fuck it is but I just wish that they felt free enough to laugh but that's on them that's not on you

yeah but it's if we're having like a greater cultural discussion which I whatever I just want to fucking make people laugh but fuck you Shane hey fuck you man okay you guys

to me the strongest argument against the comic going over the line and introducing stuff that we're not supposed to say is that the non-comic people out there will feel empowered to say the thing that we're not supposed to say is that the non-comic people out there will feel empowered to say the thing that we're not supposed to say when the comic

makes us laugh by saying that thing. Oh, that's absolute bullshit. 100%. Yeah, it makes no sense. I don't know who came up... Okay, so there's this thing in comedy that no comedians came up with that term. I think it's a comedy journalist. Punching up versus punching down.

That's not a thing that none of us ever think about. But somehow, somewhere, somebody decided that you punch up if you joke about the people society has decided. Those are the privileged people. You can make fun of them. And this whole group below them, that's like the marginalized. And you can't joke about them because that's punching down. And that's not true.

You punch where you think it's funny. That's all it is. Where do we have this thing punching up and punching down? But it's also a comedian. You see the world through the comedian's eyes. Like a joke is a buildup of tension and then a release. And you really do. I'm a gay. I'm a lessee. like a joke is a build up of tension and then a release and you know you really do

I'm a gay, I'm a lessee I'm a parent prove it, prove it prove it come here Liz, let's go now it's interesting I didn't know about Liz I transform them when i came out i came out in the mid 90s

as a gay parent i was i had kids and i just started talking about my family and i was like i have to talk about family everyone talks about that you know like your parent there's so much material and it definitely changed the way people would come up to me after a show and say oh i i first of all people would forget that I was gay because I was talking about the same shit that the other parents go through And then I've had people come up to me thanking me I had a military guy from Houston say oh I see why you guys want to get married now like comedy is powerful if You are talking about and it's the most palatable way to talk about something subversive 100% because

you trick them, they're laughing but they're learning they're thinking that's the power of comedy can I invite another perspective here we have a woman who works here she's trans, she worked with me for more than 30 years

long before she was trans and she's also been around For more than 30 years. Oh, shit, man. Long before she was trans. And she's also been around comedy all this time. And she's quite intelligent. And I'm wondering if you have any... I wouldn't go that far. An introspective... She's no Amy Schneider.

I wonder if you have anything to... How does it make you feel? When did you transition? You know, it's what happens during COVID. I didn't know if you know that that was a side effect. Too much banana bread. I remember you before. Yes, you do.

You have a picture with my daughter. I do. And you're good at dancing. You can salsa and stuff. I'm really good at dancing now. Now she's even better at dancing. Okay, well done, bro. Sorry.

Jesus Christ. Anyway. I apologize. I apologize. Sorry. Jesus Christ. Anyway. I'm interested to know how you feel about it when people are telling jokes about trans community and what perspective you have from it when there was a time you probably would have laughed at those jokes and now you find yourself maybe the butt of those jokes, for lack of a better term.

All right, So I am going to go out on a limb. It's not a very popular opinion within my community. But I do believe that it is important for comedians to make jokes about the transgender community. And the reason is because

every time you talk about it you normalize our existence. You start the conversation with one caveat. That whatever you say, have it be based in truth. So long as it's true, then it's funny.

If it's not true, then it becomes mean. Truth is elusive, you know. It's something that we argue. But I mean, so long as it's not really mean-spirited, I think the shorthand way of saying is, you know,

have it be based in truth. And, you know, have it be based in truth. And, you know, so I'm not offended. I would say that there's a large portion of my community, which are, we're usually kind of quiet. We kind of, well, for reals, we kind of dip into the background. We're really good at trying to be on the DL, you know. We're trying to hide. We're trying not to make ourselves

too well known. There's many of us who are hardworking, productive members of society, worthy of inclusion and we find the jokes funny. We're not out there protesting against the Dave Chappelle's. I

watched the Dave Chappelle episode three times, two times, taking notes, and I didn't find anything that he said that was mean-spirited. I found things I disagreed with, but he has a right to offend me. Is she

making a crucial distinction here that's kind of not handled? There's a big difference between being mean-sp spirited and making a legitimate point. I have a lot of tolerance for somebody making a point, even about things that really matter,

that are emotional to me. If I know they're making a point, I feel the obligation to give them a lot of latitude. If they're mean, I don't feel the obligation to give them any room at all. Audiences are probably pretty similar to that. Can I ask you a question actually on that whole thing?

My feeling about the Chappelle thing is it was just like people, they didn't have the same knowledge base. That's kind of what I understand. Transphobia's definition for Chappelle and transphobia's definition for the trans community were different, and there wasn't a conversation to get on the same page. So I think Chappelle was going like, transphobia is what racism would be, so you hate me, therefore that's transphobia. I don't hate you guys, it's not transphobia.

And then the trans community was like, if you don't think I'm really a woman, that's transphobia. I don't hate you guys, it's not transphobia. And then the trans community was like, if you don't think I'm really a woman, that's transphobia. Is that? So I lost some friends because of my stance on how I felt that Dave Chappelle is within his right to say what he

did. There is part of our community that feels like you can't say anything. If you say anything remotely offensive part of our community that feels like you can't say anything. If you say anything remotely offensive towards the trans community, immediately you're put in that block, in that box, you're shut out, you're

cancelled, you're whatever. We're going to march because any word, any negative word by anybody, you know, would mark you as being transphobic. What I interpreted as Chappelle saying is that in my heart of hearts, I don't live like you live.

I can't understand it. But I do support you 100%. Hence his friend out there in San Francisco, the comedian. And caveat, I've known Chappelle also for a very long time, and I know that he is not transphobic. He says jokes to be funny because

he's a comedian. That's what he does. And if he's not, and actually in some ways, thank God, because we are having this conversation about whether or not it's funny or not, and do we have thick enough skins and if there's any younger lgbt out there don't have such thin skins like yeah i agree with you the younger lgbtq uh plus every other fucking bell um there is you know it's like because of our experience i think because we went through the aids crisis because we joke about things because we've had this experience uh and

it's now verboten i remember i was playing tennis and um this i was i played doubles tennis because I can't move. Anyway, but I was in Provincetown. Gay, gay, gay. And then... And it was Carnival, which is like the Carnival in New Orleans. And the theme was the 80s. And I'm playing doubles tennis. And there's a guy there. He's about my age.

We're playing and we're on a break. And he's like, what are you going to dress up as for the carnival? And he said, oh, I'm going to go as Madonna. And I said, oh, I'm going as one T cell. Okay? That's a phenomenal joke. So he laughed his ass off because you know we had been through this shit together he told a friend

of his who's like 26 and they were appalled oh my god how could she say that okay so that's funny yeah Glenn we're getting close to the time we're going to take audience questions I know you've thought very deeply about this issue and things related

to it maybe you want to have a chance to share with you share with us the things you've thought very deeply about this issue and things related to it. Maybe you want to have a chance to share with us the things you've been thinking about before we turn over to the audience. Well, this has been a wonderful experience, I'll say that much. I mean, listening to these comedians talk about comedy.

I want to talk a little bit about the N-word. Nigger. Which I can say, because this is my N-word. I've known this young man since he was, you know, since I was a nigger. Which I can say because this is my nigger. I've known this young man since he was, you know. Since I was a nigger. Hell yeah. No, no, no, no. What I mean is

circling back to my point about political correctness being a way of keeping the thing from getting out of the box. Out of the comedy box and into the world. This monster, this monster of racism, this monster that we, you know, and we've got guardrails, we've got, you know, stay in your lane kind of markers. And when you let a few people get across the line in the name of comedy, you open up the door to something that could be really very ugly.

I don't know how many Hitler jokes we would want to tell in 1941. You know what I mean? The producers, that wasn't Chaplin doing a thing? He was doing a mustache, yeah. He was what? Yeah. That's just the mustache. I don't have a grand intellectual closure on the conversation.

I have a sense, though, that there's a lot of stuff to learn from comics, talking with journalists, talking with philosophers about our society. So, you know, that's what I would say. Can I just say that you're talking about Hitler. There was, Charlie Chaplin did a film called The Great Dictator, which was a satire, which involved Hitler, a Hitler-esque type, in funny situations to ridicule him we can we satire and comedy is a that's the powerful tool we can take something do

something take a subject and make it so absurd that people go that's right it's not as scary as we think it is or it's not as important as we think it is, or it's not as important as we think it is, or this is something we should pay attention to. So humor and satire has been used in situations for difficult subjects forever. So that's a tool we use. They did the... First of all, all in the family would never get on the air now on a network

what a shame Maude had an abortion on one of her episodes never get on the air now and when they did the live episode of the Jeffersons they censored it and

it's times have really this has really really changed they censored it. And it's, times have really, this has really, really changed. That the discourse, that there's no, I think that what you were saying is that it does create discourse, this comedy,

and when you talk about real things, people start actually talking about that. Oh, that joke was funny. You know, I was thinking, blah, blah, blah. And when we all watch the same TV show at the same time, whatever happened on that show, whatever issue they were talking about that. Oh, that joke was funny. You know, I was thinking, blah, blah, blah. And when we all watched the same TV show at the same time, whatever happened on that show, whatever issue they were talking about,

everyone talked about it that next morning. It created discourse. And there's no discourse now. There's just arguing. No, that hurt my feelings, so it's wrong. And that's what I think is really sad. Yeah. I think one of the things that's happened is a lot of people

have forgotten that comedy by nature is transgressive. It's not supposed to be right. It's actually very wrong. You're supposed to look at the shitty stuff in your life and laugh about it. That doesn't mean you have the power to change it, but you

cope with it by laughing about it. I think now there's this idea that, oh, you shouldn't talk about this as if that's going to make it go away. It's going to make it worse. Exactly. But people think if you joke about something, then you empower other people to not do this thing. Like Richard Pryor joked about police brutality in the 70s. And I guess is that a thing of the past? It's still fucking here. So it doesn't matter

if you joke about it. You're just joking to cope with it. You're not joking to change the fucking world. We're working a fucking nightclub for drunks. What are we talking about? It's not this highfalutin bullshit. Not you guys.

You're pretty... Yeah, you guys seem sober and uh I don't know from my perspective I hope more comedians actually give a fucking start like worrying about the crowd cause it just makes me funnier cause I literally

I hope every comedian is like well maybe I shouldn't say that it's like great I'll make a million dollars I also want to say again cause I really think it's true that it's not say that. It's like, great. I'll make a million dollars. I also want to say again, because I really think it's true, that it's not, I bet you it's not audiences that have changed that much. It's a few people on Twitter

and corporate America that's intimidated by this. So you got fired from SNL. I don't think the audience would have given a shit if you had been hired on SNL. It's just an NBC with chicken because those people on Twitter and the people that go to cocktail parties

or whatever it is. 40 people tweeted. That's all it takes. It's not a reflection of any big sea change of intolerance the audience couldn't stand. And that's a huge point. That's why Rogan is still perfectly... I'm sorry to cut you off, but guys like Rogan

and Chappelle, I didn't have anything before that. There was no way to point back and be like, no, he's actually funny. He was joking. Literally the only thing the entire world saw was a clip of me sitting there saying wild shit. So that was a pretty easy cancel.

I'll do it, dude. Fuck it. I somehow suspect that Rogan had some sort of contractual scenario because this couldn't have been uncontemplated that he would say something. He must have had some contractual protection in this regard. I don't know that, but it just seems if I was his lawyer...

I mean, you're not going to put $100 million for somebody who didn't let them go because of Twitter. They would have lost double. All of his followers would have been like, fuck it, I'll delete Spotify right now. Fuck it. It sucks to have to be that

end of the spectrum where you're like, yeah, we'll boycott this company also. Fuck it. If corporate America would have a backbone, I think a lot of this problem would disappear. I think it's time for... Oh problem would disappear. Yeah, I agree. I think it's time for...

Oh, Sam Jay. Come on, Sam. Bring this monster up. This is Sam Jay, writer on SNL. She has her own show. What's up, baby? Oh, Sharksie. You get the last word, Sam. I get the last word. My last word is cancel Shane Gillis.

Please. It helps. What last word in what regard? You can say whatever you want to say about this topic. About cancel culture. Are you afraid of getting cancelled? Am I afraid of getting cancelled? Sometimes.

I mean, I think there's, if you do anything now in the public light, there's this kind of inherent fear. All right. I think some, in this world that doesn't seem to understand nuance anymore, I think there's an inherent fear of people running with something and fucking your life up. And I think there, as an artist, it's super scary because a part of your job is vulnerability and just to be rawly honest in your mistakes and in your victories. And to do that, you have to say

where you went wrong. And when we're not entertaining the gray and we're not entertaining the nuance and there's just these very hard lines drawn in the sand of what is and isn't okay and no one's equating life and experience and baggage and emotional shit and everything else that plays into a right and a wrong, as an artist, you become afraid to create art. And in that, we'll be stilted as a society because the conversations won't move and be pushed in the necessary way. And so, yeah, is it a fear?

A little bit. But then there's this other side of me that's like, I don't know, the masses have always been fucking stupid. Not for nothing. I think individually, people are reasonable. And in groups, people are fucking idiots.

And if you bend to the will of the mob, then you're always bending. And the other responsibility of artists is to say fuck the mob. And sometimes when you say fuck the mob, the mob persecutes you. They burn you at the stake. They fucking take away your shit. They try to deny you the right to do the thing you love to do. Because the mob also usually is a group

of people who hasn't tapped into their own potential yet. It hasn't tapped into their own truth. It hasn't tapped into their own fucking access to happiness. So they don't know how to

process seeing a free motherfucker. Wow. Because they're not free yet. Glenn, are you Sam's older Pokemon? Does Sam evolve into Glenn? How long have you been sitting on that one? I was waiting for that whole speech.

I was like, how do I word this correctly? Call me wrong if you must, but don't you ever call me humorless. Yeah, so I don't know. It's this weird dance, right? So, yeah, there's a fear, but then my need as an artist to say what I want supersedes the fear and I'm also like I don't know if they cancel me and I got to take whatever little money I got and live in the woods I'm fine with that I did it I had a run I got to say it and a little bit if you're a true artist that has to be

enough you can't be like why need the millions and I need the attention because then you're starting to play in some other spaces that aren't necessarily about art but it's like yo if this is my last painting i got to paint the way i fucking wanted bro and i'm willing to pack up my shit and go paint fucking trees in the woods and maybe when i'm dead and in the ground 20 years later there'll be some new generation that comes around and goes you were fucking dumb for that man like here was a person just trying to do it correct you know I just think that's the dance the entire time and the internet and Twitter and all these

things that give like dumb people access to talk a lot they don't help you know if anything that's like the worst part of it is like there's all these platforms for dumb niggas I just remember a time where you were dumb you had to like have the balls to be dumb in someone's face you know what I mean like you had to go to a bar and be like, I'm going to say something I think is right. And then everyone would be like, shut your dumb ass up. And you'd be like, all right, I'm fucking dumb.

And you had to take, like, whatever that persecution was. But now dumb niggas get to tie something and if it's too dumb, they delete it. They're like, oh, I didn't even say it.

And it's like, ah! That's not helpful. Sam Jay, everybody. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Woo! All right, unless anybody here

has something else they want to say, I think we'll take questions from the audience. Who's going to come down? Somebody want to man the mic? Maybe... Me?

I'll do it. I'll do questions from the audience. So there's a cordless mic there. You's going to come down? Somebody want to man the mic? Me? I'll do it. I'll do questions from the audience. There's a cordless mic there. Let me this one, right? Sam's going to fuck you up, lady. Put your hand down. My white queen. I want her.

Pick the hot chicks first, Sam. Come here. My Disney princess. She's mine. I wanted to thank you guys for your insight and also for being very courageous because I think courage is a rare thing these days. I wanted to ask, I'm nervous because I have a show coming up

and the premise is satirical. And I'm worried it'll be taken out of context so people won't get irony what advice would you guys give to somebody in my position what's the show the show is called the war on drugs is going great when is that? Let me get in there. I'm the last one. I say, who fucking cares what they think? Just do your fucking show.

Very articulate, wasn't that? A lot of people don't know that you're tending to be funny. Just put it on the program, a satirical comedy. And then they go, oh, okay, that's how she means it. You would think. Because my thing is called a comedy podcast. And most of the time, if I'm being racist or sexist or transphobic, it's clearly satire and irony.

But sometimes people don't think that. So, I don't know. Do your best. You don't have any other jobs and what's your real job you're fucked you can't do comedy why are you trying to do comedy get the mic out me yeah I mean I didn't want to interrupt ladies these days, baby. You let them rock out. That woman lifted her hand up first. Right there in the corner.

I don't want to get in her way. Nah, you behind her, so you got to wait. Right there. That woman with the glasses and the dark hair lifted her hand up first. Yes. Yes. Hello.

Okay, so. Yes. Hey, uh... Hello? Okay, so... Just project. We can hear you. I mean, I can yell. Maybe hand her your mic over there. In spirit of the set, I'm partially Jewish, so I can yell. TJ, hand her your mic, TJ, because we want to make sure it's recorded.

Uh-oh. So, first of all, in terms of the power of comedy to really change people's minds, I've really changed my mind tonight. I really believe that trans women are women based on their ability to completely take over a conversation and shut up men.

But, my question is related to that, which is to say, there seems like there's a bit of a contradiction. You want to say that comedy has the power to challenge power. And then you want to say that it's just

jokes. And I think there is a little, it might be contradiction is too strong. There's a tension there that I think maybe you guys could address. It's just jokes. Stop trying to make it more than that. It's just jokes. Stop trying to make it more than that. It's just jokes.

It's up to intellectuals and journalists to write all these think pieces and make it seem better than that. We're just trying to be funny. And if you're out here trying to do more than be funny, you're probably not that funny. Because if you could just make the audiences laugh, that's what the fuck you would do.

That's just what it is. I know every unfunny motherfucker got a great point. Right? And the funny people sometimes got great points, and then sometimes they talk about shit. Right? They talk about dick show. It is what it is. Just be funny. Those are...

At least for me. I don't want the stakes. You're not trying to make points? No. Can I ask you a follow-up question? No. And if I am, that's up to you guys. Can I ask you a follow-up question, Andrew? And if I am, that's up to you guys. If I'm up here going, I'm trying to change the world, cancel me, bro. Cancel me. If I'm out here

going, I just make jokes, that's all I do, let me be Batman, bro. Andrew, when Roland says that he was running the top economics lab at Harvard, responsible for some of the most important research, and he shows his assistants, Richard Pryor and Eddie Murphy, to get them to think, how do you explain that?

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just provoking you. Students are dorks. Yeah. Who've never heard anything real in their lives. That nigga's Hamilton-ing. Students are dorks. Yeah. Who've never heard anything real in their lives. That nigga's Hamilton-ing. He's just like, you want me to make learning cool?

And you watch this guy say nigga a bunch and then explain racism. I mean, it's a little bit of what... Hamilton-ing. It's a split of the dip, I think. Am I saying things that can probably Challenge Am I saying some things intentionally To challenge yes But should you live and die by me

I'm drunk no Go get a book Go do some follow research Read a nigga who's like this is his life To do this I showed up on a Saturday night drunk as shit, yelled at a cab driver and now I got a lot of thoughts on race.

And that's this job. Exactly. We make movies. It's some Pixar shit. If you have a greater point that you can extrapolate from it, great. If it's just about the five emotions that are inside your body, great too like it's a thing of like don't if i say it don't take it as religion if i say it don't go well you said this and then you have to think about what this this and this

because there's a lot of people saying a lot about that topic i might be saying a very ignorant thing about trans people. Sure. I'm a dumb comic who drinks a lot. There's so many books from smart people. There's so many conversations from people who this is their life's work. This is what they care about. And this is what they do. So if you

hang your hat, good or bad, on me, you're fucking up. Absolutely, yes. Also, one thing, I mean, this might be off topic, because currently I'm drunk. I don't know, if I'm performing in New York City, when it comes

to fighting power, who do you think, New York, New York's just the most liberal place on Earth. If I'm going to be up here confronting an audience, I'm going to be up here confronting an audience, I'm going to be saying something like, Trump's funny. Shit like that.

And that's fun, dude. That's fun to do. It's fun to make a whole audience sit there and be like, yeah, he's funny. Yes. That's the game. You know what sucks is coming up here and being like, women's rights matter.

That shit sucks. Yeah, it's so funny. These bitches are dumb. Yeah, it's so much, sucks. It's so funny. These bitches are dumb. It's way more fun to come up here and be like, you know who's dumb as hell? Women. See how funny that was? You can tell I'm joking.

Who's got the mic now? We want the highest stakes. Not all of us, but a lot of us want the higher stakes and those are going to be the trickier topics to talk about. I think that you actually do want to make points. Maybe. Who knows? I would never tell you I do.

That's too self-celebrating. I tell dick jokes. You have to admit that comics do speak truth to power. And if you watch... We all keep talking about comics like they're all the same guy. No, no, no, no, no, no. Comedy.

Comedy speaks truth. Comedy doesn't have to. Sometimes dudes are up there with a puppet being like, yo, you ever whack off? Right. That's funny, too. Farts are funny. I'm not saying every time there's a comic performing. But there is a reason when you go, there's panels on TV shows.

There's a reason The View has comedians on there. There's a reason that there's the you know panels on TV shows there's a reason the view has comedians on there there's a reason that when they went when that was and you two are also fucking white men. Right, I wanted to say that. Diminish your power so I can speak to you. No, no, no. You're such a faggot, Shane. Shut up. He's such a faggot.

When it comes to something, he's such a like, Diminish, shut your bitch ass up. Sam, we did the same shitty movie together. You're talking about art this, art that. We did the same shitty movie.. You're talking about art this, art that. We did the same shitty movie. Listen to what I'm saying. Okay, go. You are a white man.

You are a white man. You are in a place of privilege where you don't necessarily have to speak truth to power in that way. But the first time someone saw Richard Pryor, that was a big truth to people. And representation. It's not a common thing. They don't fucking ever get to see that type of shit. It does fucking matter to people. You just! They don't fucking ever get to see that type of shit. It does fucking matter to people. You just beat

the game, and so you can play at this level. It doesn't fucking matter. Maybe these days when an audience sees a white dude not being a complete pussy, and talking like a normal human, there's some fucking people that are like, yo. Can you let me finish? That's great.

I'm just saying. I'm just saying. I'm sure Richard Pryor would have got cut off also. Go ahead. You're correct. But that's not what we were talking about. We're talking about this comedy from truth to power. Right.

And is it another position? What's power here? Just like art. Yes, it does. And when the art is usually coming from a person who is a minority. A marginalized person. Who is marginalized. Who has a voice. It is a very powerful tool. Yes, it is a minority. A marginalized person. Who is marginalized. It is their voice.

To bring a voice to society that isn't being heard. That's not a good or bad thing. It is just a fucking factual thing. Growing up and it's all white men, white men, white men, white men. That is going on. One thing.

For people who just tell jokes, y'all motherfuckers use a lot of big words. I understand what you guys are saying. And exactly this conversation is what inspired us on January 6th. Shane?

You ready for the sequel, buddy? Recurators! No! No! Alright, next question. Who's got the mic? Okay, over here. Liz, who has the mic? Oh, this man has the mic.

Speak up. Three quick things. Turn up his mic a little bit, okay? Punching up and punching down was not from a journalist. It was from George Carlin. That was his concept. He never used those words. I know exactly the clip you're talking about.

I'm a nerd about comedy. He never used that. A comedy journalist used that. It was an easy step. Let's just say that. Number one. Noam, I want to thank you for creating an environment where this kind of conversation

can go on. This is incredible. This is really, really wonderful. And I think we got kind of close to this in the conversation, but Andrew, you were talking about your audience and seeing people in the audience that were uncomfortable laughing at certain jokes, and

et cetera, et cetera. And there is a clear sort of schism in comedy these days. And the audience that were uncomfortable laughing at certain jokes, and etc., etc., and there is a clear sort of schism in comedy these days, and the question that I have is, are people that do laugh at the joke with full throttle enjoyment, could they be believing what you're saying? Maybe. And that's what concerns me.

I wouldn't say that happens at my shows. I would say that happens at a show that I just happen to be on. At my show, those people know what they're buying. You go to a pizza restaurant, you're getting a pizza, right? So they expect that. They're there for that. They want to hear those types of jokes, et cetera.

But if I'm at a random show or I just maybe pop in, I could see that potentially happening. Yeah, for sure. It's my job to make them feel comfortable. But your question was, does it make them feel like it's right? Listen, I've watched your stuff and I love you. And you really do, you're on the line. You do it incredibly intelligently and smartly. But there are people that don't. And the question then is, are people that are laughing at those jokes, might they actually believe that? And I'll use the French shit.

Yeah, yeah, I think maybe. And but we can't control what people believe, right? Like, that's not on us to control. There's crazy people out there that will go. I mean, just the other day, I think someone attacked D. Hewley because Kanye said to do it. He didn't even say to do it. He's like, I don't like that guy. So he pulled up on D.L. Like, we can't control the crazy people out there. And I don't think that we should silence ourselves because people are crazy. I also think a comedian knows when the audience is laughing for the wrong reason. Yeah. Thank you.

I mean, you can't make art that way, though. I've definitely done jokes where I berate white women for hours. And then a bunch of white men will stand up and be like, fuck yeah! Fuck yeah! Finally! Someone's yelling at these white bitches.

And I'm like, one of those dudes is gonna go home and hit his wife. I don't know what to do about that. Literally every time Sam gets off stage, I'm like, hell yeah, brother. Keep it rolling, brother. I don't know what I'm supposed to do about that. You know what I mean?

Because there's other people at the same time that there's that guy or that four guys. I won't even minimize it. Or that six guys. There's six other guys who are like, I get her train of thinking. And wow, now there's a perspective i need to hear or there's white women who i'm actually talking to who were like holy shit let me check my privilege and how i ran around with it so my focus has to be on who i'm talking to i'm not talking to them i'm sorry you picked it up the way you did, but I'm talking over here and if

I try to tailor my conversation for them, then what conversation am I having? And that question takes intent out of the equation, what your intention is. We have time for a few more. Where's the mic? Oh, this man here. Hi. Thank you guys for doing this. It was really funny and enlightening. Someone asked earlier, where does all this stuff come from?

Who makes all these rules? And I'm wondering if I have an answer, and it's going to offend certain people on stage, but... Oh, you're right. Hell yeah, brother. Let it rip. If this is a statement, it's got to be really quick,

otherwise it's got to be a question. I did not see this going this way based on his voice. I thought he was about to be like, this is brought to you by MailChimp. Hey, kids. How's everyone doing? All right, let's hear it. Sometimes I wonder if there's just too many damn people

from Ivy League schools. Ivy League schools at the New York Times. Ivy League schools at tech companies. Ivy League schools at NBC. It's your fault. Really comfortable. Overeducated. I'm just some dumb pleb from a state school, but sometimes I feel like, whoa, what the hell's going on?

This stuff is kind of crazy. So my question is, why are Ivy Leaguers so damn unfunny? Isn't SNL run by... Yeah. You're not there anymore, asshole. I don't know what I'm doing, man. I mean, yes.

I think the whole... Everybody agrees yes to your question. I don't know. Greg Giraldo was Ivy League. Yeah, he was fucking hilarious. Yeah, I don't know. Oh, no, there's people from Ivy League that are cool, but... You can cherry pick examples. Coleman's Ivy League, by the way. That's always exceptions to the rule.

No, but I think it's a really, it's a tight-knit subculture and it's like, kind of for the same reason, this is going to sound like a ridiculous example, but like are the Hasidic Jews hilarious to the outside world? Yes! I find them very funny! Oh my god!

Oh, are they hilarious? Go to B&H on a Sunday when they're rested. They got that Saturday off, they're full of fucking energy and unleavened bread, dude. Those guys are ready to go. That's on Passover. Oh, that's on Passover.

Take it easy, Andrew. Next question. Some things we can't joke about. Not here. I think it's wild that they wear them hats. What are them hats? They look like they made a hair. Fur hat, yeah.

I don't fucking talk about them hats. Those are the... What are they? The hair hats. Yeah, they're different sex, yeah. The men are so like... Yeah, but the women them. Those are the uh what the hair heads yeah, there's different sex Yeah, so like flamboyant, but the women can't show their hair. Yeah, they're better for boy the fucking they like bitch I'm gonna see your eyes You can see a Muslim bitches nose

Really? Well yeah, you talk about in a, Nation of Islam, you get a whole chin off that bitch. What kind of muscle are you talking about, baby? Love those chins. Who has the mic? Oh, you're good. I had a question about something Andrew brought up a couple times where people know what they're

coming for when they come to his shows. And Jerry Seinfeld is also one of the people that brought it up earlier on. I can't perform at colleges anymore. People don't like what I say, but he's known as a queen comic. And then there's other people that are known for being insult comics or

more on the edge. I'm curious what you guys think about that and also up and coming comedians that people don't know their brand yet and what they're getting and how that affects their ability to perform. Whoever wants to answer, will you summarize the question a little bit too? Some guy said he doesn't want to perform

not some guy, Jerry Seinfeld said he doesn't want to a billionaire, said he doesn't want to perform at colleges because people are being pussies or something. What college is booking Jerry Seinfeld? These kids grow up on TikTok. Don't do colleges.

Also, if you're a college kid and you go to the Jerry Seinfeld show, you're a fucking loser. You should be doing a lot more things on your Saturday night. Jerry's not getting college offers. Yeah, I think college kids... Jerry probably got old college offers. Yeah, I think college kids... Jerry probably got old

and was there like, what's going on with showers? And people were like, shut the fuck up. I don't know one thing that a college crowd wouldn't like. Somebody give him a serious answer. We did! Nobody cares about his fucking jokes anymore.

That's why. All right, but you're fixating on that. So take the example of Nobody cares about his fucking jokes anymore. That's why. Take the example of Nimesh Patel who came to Columbia when I was there. He made a joke that was like, you know how you know being gay is not a choice? No black person ever wakes up in the morning and is like, this shit is too easy. This black shit is too easy. I'm going to choose to be gay.

It was like a joke. It's a great joke. The lesson of it is not at all bigoted and they cut some people choose to be black so so as soon as all those all got no yeah so I assume the man fire only fans to five hours a month people choose not not the man paid for ticket he wants to get a question yeah assume he had said you know like Nimesh Patel tries to you know do do college campuses you know how what do

you make of the fact that comedians like him can't even do shows places like Columbia. It's not about college campuses. It's about how it affects what type of comedy you're doing and also how well known it is what type of comedy you're trying to do and how that affects your ability. When you do a college show or a corporate show you're not doing it for the love of the game. You're doing it for a check. I'm not talking about college shows. You're saying that the youth

culture and their fucking attitude and how they perceive shit, how does that affect us as comics when we're out here talking our shit a little bit? I'm saying that Seinfeld, for example, forget the college thing, feels

like he can't do certain jokes, but he's known as a clean comic, and then there's people who are known as insult comics that toe the line and just the type of comedy you're doing affect your ability to perform it and where you're going. Yeah, bad comedy usually gets booked a lot.

And when you're doing good comedy Next question. Where's the mic? Where's the mic? Go. The mic doesn't seem to pick up too well over there. The mic is over here. I'm over here now. So, first of all, Sarah and someone talked about the courage that it takes for comics

and thanked Noam for bringing them together. I second that. But I also wanted to just, yeah, it's not because... You've been cancelled. I've been cancelled. TJ, will you give her your mic again? It won't be the first time. I don't think it reaches. Thank you.

But I wanted to also just, first of all, I'm a social scientist, so I'm not funny. So just don't expect funny. I just wanted to say also that Noam has a tremendous amount of courage and it took a lot of courage for Noam to continue to book people who had been cancelled and I also wanted to acknowledge Glenn and Coleman and Roland

for the courage that they've had to come up with. Gaaaaay! Right? had to come up with. Gay! And we've heard like nothing from Roland and I would just really I'd love to hear some from Roland about what he's been dealing with and how... I'm drunk too. Good, excellent, this is the best thing but if you don't know Roland's story, you have to look him up and get to know what he's just been dealing with.

Just slide in a DM, shorty. Okay. And I also want to acknowledge slippers for me. I'm very comfortable on the feet. Do you want to comment on that or no, Rowan? What do you want me to do, Noah?

Whatever you want. I'm going to say gay bad times. Go. Let's go. I told six jokes at Harvard and got suspended for two years. You want to hear one of them? Hell yeah! Let's not do that.

No, I want to hear these. I'll tell you afterwards. I'll tell you all six of them. Are they yours? Were you telling another comment? I damn sure wasn't telling your jokes. You would have got a lot longer than two years, I promise you that. No, that white shit would have got me a promotion.

Yo! longer than two years, I promise you that. No, that white shit would have got me a promotion. Yo. Yo. That was good. That was good. Where the fuck have you been for the last hour? I appreciate the confidence. You're welcome. I'm a comedian giving you a compliment, though. He said, I'm not a white man, I'm a comedian.

Oh, I'm both. At any rate, no, that's what happened. That's what she wanted to know. I'm back at Harvard teaching. Why'd you go back, bro? Because they pay me. There's other Ivy League schools. There's other schools, man.

Because now you can't complain about it. You went back, Al. I did comedy for two years and y'all motherfuckers don't pay enough. So I got... You weren't doing a good job. Did you do a joke in a class? And they were like, no.

That's pretty funny. What was the joke? We'll talk about the joke. You can look it up online. There's a lot about Roland and the injustice that was done to him online. It must have been fucked up, bro. I guess it's time for the last question.

Yeah, we got to hear that joke. That's crazy, dude. I don't have the mic. So nobody in the back got a question. We can relay the question. Thank you. Nicolespi from Reason is here. I've got two questions. No statements, just a question.

Go ahead. You're Nick Gillespie? No, he's back there. Oh. I feel a lot of lament for the audience and social media. We just blame the masses. Sorry. Stop breaking shit.

We just blame the masses. Just get to it. Just get to it. Just get to it, dog. What does the project mean to it. The project now isn't so much about comedy. The word begins with a W. Whoa, did he say

use for the project? Don't we really need to learn how to behave better in public with social media? I mean, this is like the 40s or 50s with cigarettes. We have to accept that things are the way they are. We have to train the public to accept that things are the way they are and we have to train

the public to use these things better. We do need to train the public. You work in big tech, motherfuckers? No, no, no. Don't mess with him. I totally agree. I feel bad. It's descended into a comedy show.

You're just pushing fastballs and they're hitting them over the... I've gone to executive coaching now, so I totally agree with you. Now I know how to walk in a straight line with a real tight ass. I'm curious. When you say train people to use social media, you mean

like all of us, like comics and the masses? Or what do you... I just observed, like, you know, the joke earlier about someone didn't know that they could laugh people don't know who they are they don't know how to behave in public they're playing an act they just don't feel that they can trust themselves and their reactions to things people are freaking out you don't know what real problems are I see that as like a positive thing that people are freaking out you know it's only

irrelevant and consequential things. So we have to do something about this. This is something... Sir, because this is being recorded and you don't have a mic, that's the only reason I want to stop because there's going to be dead air on the recording. But we'll just cut that.

You should be sorry. I was filming that, too. Mr. Gillespie, somebody bring the mic to him over there. You did great. This has got to be the last one. You did great. I thought it was good. It wasn't that you were saying anything wrong or anything.

I kind of agree with what you're saying, but we had to do it. You're a good guy. Thanks. I just wanted to ask, and, Noam, you brought it up. Corporate America is just like pussy central now, right? Is that new? And whether or not it isn't, how do you get corporate America

to stand up and not fire people immediately when they get like 40 tweets or something? Huh? I don't be honest, I don't care about corporate America. I don't give a fuck.

I don't operate within corporate America I think that if you're a comedian and you want to create your own content you should be creating your own shit and then get people to advertise on it and if they don't like it get other people to do it go on the road make all your money on the road give away your content and that's what I've done I've been able to do the comedy that I've wanted to do during this whole thing

I haven't stopped saying a single fucking joke I don't know why these comics want to keep working for like Comedy Central and shit Nobody's gonna watch it. You're not gonna go anywhere. I would like to say HBO is a great corporation I really think that they treat me well think the work culture is positive I enjoy it very much there. You're drunker than I thought. So I would think that the answer is that it happens incrementally and that seeing Netflix not buckle on Chappelle and then I think the Spotify thing was really huge

because what Rogan did was really grabbed onto what we thought was the third rail of career-ending violations and it seemed to evaporate, and the next corporation A, will say, well, actually Spotify got away with it, and B, it will be harder for them to fire somebody for the

same things that Rogan didn't get fired for, I think. The Netflix thing is tricky. They didn't buckle for Chappelle, but everybody else freaked out. Also, you bitch nigga, you did a Netflix special. I lost my Amazon special after the Chappelle thing. But you did it, so you can't be like,

fuck corporations. Making money. Also watch my Netflix special. Hey. That's what you just said. You did the same movie. Nah, before that you were like, oh, we're artists, and if I die in the woods. Yeah, I said fuck the internet.

I said fuck the internet. You never been to the woods, Sam. If I'm buried in the woods, I'm going to do this shit. Stop it. I've been in the woods. You've been DMing me about St. Bart's, not the fucking woods. You have bougie ass white girl at heart. And that parts. And that's why I love HBO. It all adds up for me. My point is, I did the HBO shit on my own terms. I did it on my own terms too.

I think you can do it on your own terms. The way you create your own terms, you create leverage. But I think it's very lofty to just fuck it all. Corporations just care about money. And we have another show coming in. And we got our... So, Glenn, do you have any... We're a corporation.

Any final words? What a wonderful evening, eh? This has been the Glenn Show at Comedy Cellar. Bravo. Thank you for having us. I want to personally thank Glenn Lowry for having this idea and for coming all the way down to do this.

I hope everybody will listen to his podcast and his Glenn show on video. I think there's a tremendous amount of intellectual energy that's going on now around Glenn and Coleman, and maybe it's because black heterodox intellectuals have more freedom than other people do now but for whatever the reason is I think that the kind of stuff that Glenn's talking about has more intellectual energy and is more challenging of preconceived notions and anything else out there right now.

So I would really encourage everybody to spend some time listening to Glenn Lowry and his show and check out Coleman's podcast as well. Thank you guys very much for doing this. Hello, Norm. Thank you, everybody. And thank you to our comedians who made this show.