The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Hannah Giorgis, Jim Tews, and Kate Meaney

Episode Date: September 7, 2018

Hannah Giorgis is a staff writer at The Atlantic, where she covers culture. She composed the recent article, "Louis CK and the Missed Point of Redemption. Jim Tews is a standup comic, writer, and host of the podcast, "Quitting Comedy." Kate Meaney is a New York City-based college student who recently began pursuing standup.

You're listening to The Comedy Cellar, live from the table on the Riotcast Network, riotcast.com. Good evening, everybody. Welcome to The Comedy Cellar show here on Sirius XM channel 99. we're here week two of our attempt to be transparent about the Louis thing that's gone on my name is Noam Dwarman, I'm the owner of The Comedy Cellar I'm here with Dan Natter, my co-host Dan, I'm going to let you do all the introductions, go ahead well we have a jam-packed show today

as is typically the case we have with us Hannah Georges, a staff writer at The Atlantic, and she just wrote an article called Louis C.K. and the Missed Point of Redemption. Hi. Jim Too, stand-up comic writer, host of the podcast Quitting Comedy, has joined us. And Kate Meany, who is a stand-up and college student

and the daughter of beloved friend of the comedy cellar and well-known comedian Kevin Meaney, who passed about two years ago, I guess. Yeah. And we'll be talking to her about that. But first, we're going to dig right into more Louis stuff, because who can get enough of it? I know I can.

I know that Louis is suffering, and I know that a lot of people are suffering. But I, for one, have been feasting on this because I find it so fascinating. All right, Dan. Try not to just say things that make us look terrible. But I think it's human nature to just love a scandal. Right. Hannah, so you wrote an article in The Atlantic. Hannah?

Yes. Hannah. Hannah. Thank you. An article in The Atlantic that totally raked me over the coals. No, I don't think so. It was because it wasn't written about you. But I want to give you a chance.

You want to give a synopsis of the article? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. You know, so the thing that... And don't hold back. No, I mean, the thing that I tried to grapple with

isn't that, you know, I wasn't making the point that Louis should never come back or that, you know, I wasn't making the point that Louis should never come back or that the comedy seller was sort of unique in not knowing how to grapple with this moment and not knowing how to grapple with his return, right? I think I was just posing questions about where do we locate our empathy

and whose stories are we interested in and why? And those feel like they're larger conversations that this is an example of maybe, but also a way for us to think more deeply about but what was your your main criticisms of me listen i'm afraid that because i've seen this happen before and it's happened to me yeah where you really want to let somebody have it and you're do not hold back because i believe that my best path to looking acceptable in the world again is to face the strongest arguments against me.

So I'm not looking for an easy thing. Yeah. Well, one, I'm flattered that you think I'm strongest. No, I think the particular thing I might have zeroed in on was the way that you referred to him serving out a life sentence, right? So there's a way that when we talk about men who have been held accountable in various ways for their actions kind of in the wake of the

Me Too movement, right? We use words like serving out their sentence, serving time, all these words that are really fraught with sort of carceral, not even connotation but denotation, right? Like when we talk about people serving sentences, we're talking about... Carceral means like about incarceration? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've never heard this word before.

Pino might be a good synonym. Not in this podcast. So I think to use words like rehabilitate all these words are really heavy and have very specific meanings. So for someone like Louis was never incarcerated, he was never put in jail

I'm by no means saying he should have been but I think we have to be careful about what language we use because it makes it sound like someone taking a nine-month stint away from the spoils of fame in a certain way is the same as people serving out actual time in jails and in prisons

who are dealing with much more difficult circumstances. And also want to be careful about doing that when a lot of people who commit sex crimes or who are convicted of these sorts of things, even though Louie wasn't, don't actually see jail time. So that was just sort of a rhetorical note. So in the world that you would like it to be, what would be the way that Louis could perform,

as Michael Che put it, for free in front of 110 people at the Comedy Store? What would need to happen before that small step would be something that wouldn't make you furious? I won't even say that I was furious. I think a lot of the times it's easy to frame people's responses to this as anger, not that anger is invalid, but I think it's a kind of disappointment. When you see someone like Louis whose work has so often grappled with power

and with what it means for us to be in relationship to each other and how we fail each other all the time, for someone like that to end their statement of admitting to allegations by saying I'm going to take some time away and listen and then come back without acknowledging what they've heard or what they've processed I think was really difficult for people now you know you know I said the same thing yeah yeah yeah and I actually I mean I read the I read the Hollywood Reporter thing and I really appreciated sort of the transparency around not knowing right and

that's why I wanted to come talk this is Cornelia here, and she's one of the people who wrote me hate mail. And that's true. And I answered every piece of hate mail, basically with the same, it wasn't a form response, because it feels a different thing, but ended with the same thing. I said, please read this Hollywood Reporter interview,

because that's kind of allowed me to speak. And I said, I would be very happy to talk to you on the phone or in person. And I've spoken to, Cornelia's the first person that came in person, but I've spoken to a number of people. Some of them Cornelia's off mic by the way.

Some of them really, I'll tell you some stories in a second, but I had just finished saying to her when we started this that when I woke up in the morning and heard that Louis had performed, I was like, oh, great. This is this this is like I'm sure this is a is a good thing. And then I went to the kitchen and I asked Liz to send me the video. And when I saw the video, my wife was I'm like, oh, no. Oh, no. Like, I couldn't, like, this guy is shooting himself in the foot in a way that seemed impossible for me to understand that this great genius who did all these great works and, you know, made his career on such a good insight into the human condition that he had been oblivious to what he needed to say and do.

But I couldn't have known that before he went on. But I don't want to use that as a total excuse because even if I had known that, I still am not convinced that that's not on him. In other words, that the audience who then hears him come back and is angry with him and the damage that that might do to his ability to regain his acceptance and polite company, as it were. I don't know that the world necessarily wants to be filtered from that either. I think this is incredibly interesting, even for students of the Me Too thing, to see how this was mishandled. You guys have another weapon in your quill there, and it's saying, look, we're not just

saying men are oblivious. Look, here's a good... Look at this. If you didn't take our word for it, how do you explain that? They don't get it. Men don't get it. So, you know, I've said on this show before that I think the unfiltered world benefits us much more than the filtered world. And eventually the people who are filtering the world are going to filter it in a way that we don't want. And that is why, and I can go back and everybody can read online, listen to the podcast of the problems I do have. I don't want people in the audience who are bothered by this to have to be forced to sit there. I don't want to take their money if they end up seeing something that they hate.

I don't want any part of any of that. But the idea of a willing performer, bad guy, good guy, a willing speaker, whether Hamas terrorist, whatever it is, and a willing audience. Columbia wants to invite Ahmadinejad to speak, whatever it is. I think that this is okay. I think it's okay. And I also told Cornelia, and almost everybody who's coming to me about this, you're one of them, also feels disease needs redemption.

And most people don't feel that way, but most of the hate mail I got people don't feel that way. But most of the hate mail I got, people did feel that way. So then I'm left with this. Look, we can't make this up as we go along. Someone needs, someone will get a polar surprise for this. Someone needs to lay down some real principles that I can then look at and say, okay, well, you know, these principles make sense to me. This is good the way an employer should operate. Right. So, you know what? Louis falls under this, and then you can come in with a Z's, and like, no, look,

Z's doesn't fit here, and this is how long it should be, and this was required, and because, otherwise, I'm flying blind. As I said to Ted Alexandro, the comedian, I said, Ted, if you were to look me in the eyes right now and say, Noam, you know what? 15 years ago, I did just what Louis did. I'm ashamed. I don't do it anymore. I know it's wrong, but I did it. Nobody would expect me to say, Ted, get your things.

You don't perform here anymore. So there is this aspect that's because people are looking. Yeah, and things are new, right? But very much that they're looking because in other words, and that's not irrational because once everybody knows about it, then it kind of harms the Me Too movement in a way.

I understand that. But I'm not sure that fairness to the individual in terms of what he should suffer for what he did 15 years ago, I'm not sure I can take into account to the individual in terms of what he should suffer for what he did 15 years ago. I'm not sure I can take into account the fact that it's public or not public. And I felt like if I didn't allow Louis to go on, I would have to clean house around here.

And it would be ridiculous. I know what you're referring to, that time I shoplifted Love in the Time of Cholera from a bookstore. So I would feel like, you know, But I have made amends. What about this story?

Hey, you know, buddy, I heard this story. I want to know about this story. He's like, don't. He said, get away from me. No, no, I need to know before you go on again. And it's such a thing.

And a few other points that I really will open it for debate. It didn't, some things, some dots get connected and people kind of a go yet and think of that it didn't happen in in my my work that's that that's that it happened uh... most stories not all of not even in a workplace

and i am not part of that industry they were not uh... i don't know them. And as opposed to like the New York Times and NBC and Fox that had situations that they addressed, they hired outside firms, they investigated, they took witnesses and they knew that they had to invest. And then they came to conclusions about what happened in their own workplace. For instance, liberals are very pro-union. But of course, they know that no union contract would ever allow for someone to be fired

on the kind of situation that we have here, an article in the New York Times. No way. So the end of this, and the last thing is that principles need to be hugged close at times where emotions run highest. If we were naturally... Is that from The Godfather?

If we were naturally inclined to allow people to say whatever they wanted, we wouldn't really need a First Amendment. It's like, what do we need a First Amendment for? Of course everybody can say what they want. If we were fair by nature when we see an outrageous crime, we wouldn't need all these careful due process things. We wouldn't let murderers go free because evidence was obtained illegally.

We know that it's when the rubber hits her, when this is tough, when this makes us angry, we need to be people of principle. And I know people are rolling their eyes all over America, but that is the kind of shallow, casual thinking that went into this decision. That's all I want to say. Wait, no, just because you had mentioned that the one issue you agreed with the people

that had come at you was that the audience was sort of taken by surprise and that maybe that was not a good thing. And then you had suggested putting a sign outside the door saying swim at your own risk. Anybody might show up.

You never know what's going to go down here. So where are we with that? I mean, are you going to put that into effect? I want to do that but I want to run it

by more people to make sure I'm not, some things I thought were going to make things better have made things worse but my idea is that everybody should know coming here that,

listen, anybody could show up. So that's no way. And then on the off chance that they do show up, if you want to leave, no questions asked. Check us on the house. You don't have to pay a dime. And we don't want anybody here. We don't want any unhappy customers.

Customers still come first, even above principle. And so that's what I think. To what point do you think that will calm those who are most outraged? Well, I don't know. Nothing will calm the people who are most outraged. Like any election, we need to win the... Well, Hannah, if Louie, instead of showing up by surprise, if Noam had gone up and said,

Louie is back, anybody that wants to go on the House, would you then have written that article, or would you have felt that that was sufficient? That's a good question. I think it comes down to the... It's not a good question. It's a great question. It's an amazing question.

Thank you so much for asking it. You'd still be mad at Louis, but you might not be as mad at me. Yeah, right? I think at that point, then we're mitigating one of the factors that made people upset in this case, which was that there was no warning, right? And I at that point, then we're mitigating one of the factors that made people upset in this case, which was that there wasn't a warning, right? And I think that if you're somebody who has been in any industry and experienced something that the women who have described their stories with Louis have described,

then to see someone come up without having made restitution is going to be upsetting, especially if people come to comedy shows to laugh, you know, to relax, to unwind, to ignore the nonsense of everyday life or have it filtered through a lens that is going to make it more digestible. Right. And so to be confronted with an image or with a person who represents something that has been harmful in your life potentially or harmful kind of in the air that we're breathing right now makes that a hostile space for them. I think that would mitigate that a bit. Yeah. I think the being upset with him for not having addressed anything sort of in his set or having had a more public statement or having done some of the other things that people want him to do to make restitution. I don't think it would have done that, but that's that that wouldn't have been coming from him.

It would have been from this from the house. Now, anybody else? We're open up to the rest of you sitting down. Please introduce yourself when you start. It's been a long time since we introduced you, so the listeners have probably forgotten who you are. Go ahead. All right. Oh, go ahead.

Ladies first. Can I say ladies? Yes, you can. Oh, all right. I'm Kate Meany. I was happy to see Louie come back here. This guy. And just to get an idea of your demographic,

you are what we call a millennial. Yeah. What are you, 18 or 19? 19. 19. Let me be Gen Z. Why were you happy? Gen Z. I wasn. Yeah, you know what? What are you, 18 or 19? 19. Let me be Gen Z. Why were you happy? Gen Z.

I wasn't, like, happy, I wouldn't say, but I was glad. You know, a lot of people compare all things of sexual assault. Yes, they're all very bad, but there's also different categories. Absolutely. Like, which they fall under. Aziz Ansari is no Louis C.K. Louis C.K. is no Harvey Weinstein. And none of them are Dan Natterman, but I'll tell you that later.

But, you know, it's now, I feel like he went up, he did 15 minutes. He's a very important person to this club. You know what I mean? He shot Louis here. He's part of the history of the place, for sure. He's part of the history of the place. And, you know, it wasn't like he was headlining the show. He went up and did 15 minutes. And

you know what? As a comedian, nine months is a long time not to go on stage. Would you say that the Me Too movement is something that's important to you going on now? Yes, it is. But I also feel like we need to categorize different acts of sexual assault in different areas because I don't necessarily think all of it

can be equated to one another, if that makes sense. You want to say something? Oh, Jim Tooze. Reintroduce myself. I can only speak to this as a comic, really. It's hard to say if it was too soon or whatever, but I wanted to hear him talk about it. That's all I wanted to hear him talk about was what he's gone through. Because he's somebody who has pushed the fact that he's been so honest and open

and he's exposing himself constantly and that's his whole thing. And then he gets up there and that's the one thing he's been so honest and open and he's exposing himself constantly and that's his whole thing and then he gets up there and that's the one thing he doesn't talk about right and i know as a performer myself anything that i'm dealing with my first instinct is to turn it into something that i can do on stage and as somebody who liked louis work that's I mean, it was a terrible thing. It was a, you know, he didn't do much to show that he gave a shit about what he did.

Yeah. And I wanted to, but I also just wanted to hear him say something about it. And part of me also sees why maybe he didn't because it's like, then he's controlling the narrative, which is not fair to the victims. But it's like, then he's controlling the narrative, which is not fair to the victims. But it's like, then that's part of the challenge

in talking about it. And I don't know, I mean, I know, I also, you know, from being down here and seeing celebrities get on stage, the way the crowd reacts is overwhelming. So it's like, I'm sure like once that takes over the room, it's a totally different scenario, but it's like... By the way, there was no standing ovation. No, I didn't say that. No, but that was in the press a lot.

It was widely reported. Yeah, it just said ovation. And ovation, yes. The word ovation is seldom used without standing before. I can tell you how that came, but I don't want to... Yeah, I picked up on that. Because I heard a couple people say it was a standing ovation, and I'm like, no, read the article. It said ovation. That means they clapped.

And probably a lot. But, you know, I just don't know why I don't know why that's, you know, like, I want to see people dig deep and like, then when you have something to dig deep about that could help everyone, you don't do it.

But we all agree that's a bit of a failure. To being disappointed in that he didn't address the elephant in the room. Right. And who knows why. I hear a lot about people, the numerous criticisms I get on Facebook because I constantly

talk about this on Facebook even though I shouldn't. But just when I thought it was that, they pulled me back in. They say you're talking about Louis. It's Louis, Louis, Louis. What about the victims? But which seems odd. Of course we have to talk about Louis because a decision has to be made with regard to Louis.

So Louis has to be front and center of the conversation. But what I'll ask this to Hannah. What about this notion of we need to talk about the victims. What should we be talking about with regard to the victims? Yeah, I think when Norm was talking just now about free speech,

I was thinking a couple of different things. One is that typically when people invoke the First Amendment, that was intended so that the government would not suppress speech, right? Not so that people wouldn't have to face sort of public accountability for their words and their actions in public spaces from crowds. But the other thing is that who I feel like we're not hearing, again, Jesus. That's what I've been getting constantly. Sorry, I just saw a note that was brought in. Well, first of all, it says congratulations.

No, no, no, don't read it online. No, but I have to because this is an example of where the article in the New York Times failed. There was a long-standing rumor that Louis blocked the door so that the women couldn't leave. Read the first paragraph. And the first paragraph says, congratulations, what a coup welcoming, this is some

hate mail Noam just received, what a coup welcoming a door-blocking masturbator back to your club with open arms. On a podcast we had done some months ago, the author of that article said, indeed,

Louis did not block the door, but she did not make a point of including that in the article. She chose not to include it in the article because she felt it wasn't relevant.

And my argument to her was, he's been, you know, the story's bad enough, but this part of it that would be maybe a felony publicly accused of it shouldn't you write that he didn't do that just as a journalist you know

it's not you're not taking you're not supposed to take sides you're like you lay lay all the facts out there that a reasonable person would want to know yeah she didn't think a reasonable person would want to know that he didn't block the door and and that's troubling from a guy when i read that i said oh this is the article that I have to go to to decide what I maybe, what I should feel about what happened. I'm saying, well, why didn't she, so

anyway, that's, you know, it's... And I've seen that a lot, by the way, on social media, where people talk about him blocking the door, so that rumor is still alive and well, and needs to be dispelled. Now, you might say, well, even if he didn't block the door, it's a terrible thing. But we do need to know whether he blocked the door or not. I want you to be careful how you talk.

It needs to be dispelled sounds like you're advocating him. We should all just want to know the truth as it is, unspun, better and worse, warts and all. But we should not want to have any false impression. Like he raped and murdered somebody. Actually, he just murdered the person. He didn't rape them. That's not a defense of the murder. It's just like, okay, now I know.

I agree with you, but I think it ups the severity substantially if he blocked the doors. I do think it's an important detail. Yeah, I just take issue with the need to dispel the rumor. I understand what you're saying, and I agree. But anyway, back with Hannah, you were saying about, I guess we were dispel the wrong. I understand what you're saying and I agree. But anyway, back with Hannah, you were saying about, I guess

we were talking about the victims, what needs to be said with regard to them and should be said. I mean, I think that what a lot of these women have spoken about is feeling like they were pushed out or shut out of comedy spaces as a result of either his actions directly or as a result of not being able to speak about it. Or again, because

it's a workplace safety issue and not just sort of it. Or again, because it's a workplace safety issue and not just sort of an interpersonal interaction. Can we talk about the workplace safety issue? Yeah, yeah. I think it's tough because, you know, I think you were saying like with unions and I'm thinking about like in media spaces, right? Like when you have, let's say if one of the editors

at The Atlantic had something happen like this, then we have a process in place because we're a company that has HR structure, yada, et cetera, right? Right. But when we're talking about sort of like creative industries where things are a lot more ad hoc, where folks are coming in and coming throughout, it's a lot more difficult, right? And one of the things that I think we're grappling with in this moment is how do we responsibly be in relationship to one another

when there aren't formal structures in place? Right, but this is what's interesting to me. We do have an HR structure and procedures here in the comedy cellar, but we're somehow told that because something happened to Louis, let's say in Aspen, in a hotel room, this somehow implicates a lack of HR in our industry. And I'm like, if something happens at NBC and then somebody goes to ABC, they don't expect the ABC HR to be worried about what happened at NBC. This is, like, in other words,

I'm extremely attentive to and take full responsibility for being a responsible person in charge here to make sure that nothing like this happens in my place. Right. And that's an HR structure. And the kind of, like, as I said, the connecting dots of thinking,

like these things I have to defend against. Now, Louie, before this ever came out, Louie's worked here for 30 years. He's never done anything like that here. Not one accusation. We have this as it. You're sitting here, and you can go downstairs. There's no private spaces here. There's no green room.

There's nothing. Never mind that he hasn't been accused of doing it in over 10 years. Never mind that he came out publicly with it. So all these things, and I look at this and say, there's a lot of good arguments against Louis here, but workplace safety, that is not realistic in terms of Louis walks in, has a coffee, goes downstairs, does his set, and goes home. If he were to attempt something here,

we would have the cops here in 30 seconds. There's no workplace safety issue. When I hear that, this is going to sound bad, but I begin to think, oh, no, I'm dealing with somebody who's so upset about this, they're really not even trying to think clearly about it. Yeah. It may be righteous hate, but it's really just hate.

And I'll give you another example. So I get this terrible hate mail. So one person sent me an email and she said, listen, blah, blah, blah. And I wrote back and she said, okay, would you be willing to host a fundraiser for women who are abused and whatever it is? My answer was, absolutely, I'd be willing to do that. I would prefer not to do it. Like, I don't want to publicize it because I don't want to look like I'm pandering or kissing ass. But I'd be happy to do it.

I'd be happy to donate the proceeds. Do you know anybody who could help me get this off the ground? How do you think she responded to that? She went on Twitter, quoted me and says, dude, if your Rolodex is that thin,

there's really nothing we can do to help you. Meaning like, that's all, she was just setting me up, like what answer could she have possibly gotten from me

more than I would like to do it. I don't want to verge the signal to the word. I'm happy to give all the proceeds. This is not, I don't know people, shoot me, I don't want to verge the signal to the word. I'm happy to give all the proceeds. Do you, this is not, I don't know people, shoot me,

I don't know people involved in this issue. You'd think she'd be like, you know what, this guy's actually, no, it was all a setup in order to just bash me

and so she says, his Rolodex is that thin, like 400 likes or whatever it is. You know, like, I don't know, that's probably,

I may have the number, but clearly this was a popular thing she said. Tell me, who You know, like, I don't know. But clearly this was a popular thing she said. Tell me, who am I? Like, who can I talk to? Similarly, when I had to delete my Twitter because Dana and Julia tweeted to me.

You've been trying to poke. Dana and Julia are the two ladies in the hotel room. You've been trying to poke whole stories, which is not the case. I invite anybody to listen to our podcast.

But as a matter of fact, on the podcast, I was afraid that the story would actually be worse than what was, you remember that? I was afraid it might be worse but that they weren't able to print it because

the Times has very strict rules about what they can allege. And I told her that and I think I said it more than one time. And that's when it came out about not blocking the door. And I, so,

so they finally, the first time they tweeted at me and I felt that respect for my involvement all of it required that I had to answer them. I couldn't, I wasn't in me not to answer them. So I said, I really like to talk to you about this. I don't think Twitter is where we want to have this.

How about we get kind of, I, I just became like, I was a punching bag on Twitter. People found all sorts of amazing reasons to say that that answer was absolutely offensive. And this is an impossible world. And it goes on, it's not left, right, it's all over. It's social media on every side and everything. This hate, this really lack of interest in discussing something.

It's not about the discussion. It's really just, and that's why I said in Hollywood Reporter, it's only conversations that you agree, you agree, okay, now we can talk. It's horrible. It's horrible. There are reasonable opinions that somebody can say about why Louis should be allowed to go on that somebody can strongly disagree with that are not born purely out of sexism

or lack of sympathetic my wife's had experiences at least as bad as Dana and Julia I know other people, there are people who disagree, there are people who feel that a murderer should be set free if we find that the police gather the evidence without a warrant,

that doesn't mean they don't realize how horrible murder is. Right. It's that they feel there has to be thoughts here. Go ahead. Sorry. No, no, no. It's fine. Yeah, I think it's a tough time right now because everything is coming up, right? And we haven't dealt with so much of this stuff publicly before, and so it feels like everything has to happen all at once, and we don't have the rules for all these things yet um and it

feels like we're flying blind right that's hard i think one of the one of the interesting things that's come up in a lot of the conversations around folks like louie and things people have gone through some of these things are committed some of these sorts of acts right is what might it look like and the thing i sort of wanted to get into but then i would have been running at like 5 000 words and we can't you know we can't publish that on a casual Tuesday morning, is that restorative and transformative justice are interesting processes, right? Like, what might it look like if instead of just coming back to the stage and saying, I want to start my career again, I want to have the thing that I'm missing out on. If Louis had said to his victims, to these women, what might it look like for me to restore something here for you? And then we can all move forward. Whereas now it feels like only Louis is moving forward,

at least publicly. And so I don't think that that's impossible. And I think so much of what people, so much of the disappointment that people are feeling actually comes from sort of an unlikely kind of hope, right? Like I would like to imagine a world where Louis' future and these women's future and all of our future is one in which everybody can, like, collaborate and express themselves artistically and not have to live in, like, fear or in silence or all of these things.

That doesn't feel... It feels difficult and hard, and, like, right now everything is heated, but it's not impossible. What do you think Louis can and should do with regard to Dana and Julia and the others that have been involved? I mean, I've heard that some people say he should help their careers, he should write them a check.

They've been different. Kate, you have a thought on that? I think he should apologize. Like, you know what I mean? Like, issue, like, a formal apology. The thing that I personally find to be the worst out of this case is the damage it could have done on their careers and did.

That's like what was most upsetting about it to me because I feel like if you're doing that to a fellow person that you work with and you have so much power over them and like he's somebody that is you know just revered in this

It's big into the mic. Oh, he's just totally revered by the country. Everybody loves him and loves his comedy. And, you know, all demographics of people are fans of Louis C.K. And I think the worst thing was is that, you know, these were young female comics. You know, they saw a guy that could help them. And, you know, it was just taking advantage of his position of power. I think this is where more investigation needs to be done.

And Noam's always talking about due process and the need for formal procedures. The extent to which their career was damaged, the extent to which it's directly related to Louis' actions. I wish you wouldn't get into that because... I think it's a topic that needs to be delved into. I'm not saying that their careers weren't

damaged, but I think people toss that around and I think that's something that ideally I think would require further questioning and investigation. I think part of the tragedy though is that we'll never know. I don't think it matters.

I don't think that what he deserves or doesn't deserve is based on what he did at the moment he did it. Unless he was involved in hurting their careers personally. In other words, you're setting it up as if we find out that their careers weren't hurt. That sometimes somehow makes what Louis did not as bad. I don't think that matters. For example, there was an assertion that the managers threatened Dana and Julia.

So we need to investigate, A, did Louis know about that? Did Louis encourage that? And is it true? Those, I think, are three questions that I'd like to see answered before I proclaim that Louis indeed ruined their careers. And if he did ruin their careers, to what extent they were ruined. I think those are reasonable questions, are they not? They're interesting questions. I don't think they matter here.

Well, they matter in terms of what Louis owes to Dana and Julia. Yeah, but my point is that, like somebody said to me, Louie needs to make amends. That's when you can put him on. I'm like, you know, people need to make amends. Many, many people need to make amends.

Normally, the guy in charge of the place where people work is not the guy in charge of making sure that you make amends to somebody that you wronged somewhere else 15 years ago. That's the problem. But Hannah was saying... To the extent that Louis needs to make amends,

I'll tell you that it was bad or worse. I am trying not to get involved in that because I don't think that's... I don't think that's what matters at this decision here. Not your decision, but if we're talking about what Louis owes to Dana, Julia, and the others. If you want to zoom out

to the anger with Louis, that's not with regard to the comedy seller's decision to allow him to perform. Yes, and this all becomes... But a lot of people know him, put the comedy seller's decision, link it to Louis' amends toward the women.

That is to say that they feel that you should take that into account. You may disagree with that. We've heard, I've heard stories, I don't know if they're true, that Louie, have you heard that Louie actually did write a letter to the women apologizing? Listen, I don't put that much stock in apologies anyway. Actually, Stephen and I had a big fight where he fight and he said, well, only if you apologize. I'm like, when you apologize because you know you

have to, the apology is meaningless. If he had apologized on his own in a moment of privacy before this was an issue, that would mean something to me. But if he apologizes in reaction to all this mess, I don't see why people who hate him would want to give that any credence.

It's just like a hostage video, you know, when you know you have to apologize. I don't think there's any winning for him in that regard, like apologies or actions taken. But there should have been a little bit more. The other thing is, like, if he didn't come up here, he just would have gone up somewhere else and he could have done that. So I don't think that... He went to governors. Yeah, he went to governors before that. Yeah he just would have gone up somewhere else. Right, right. And he could have done that. So I don't think that... He went to Governor's. Yeah, he went to Governor's before that. Yeah, and nobody's shitting on Governor's.

Right. Well, Governor's is not at the center of the comedy universe as the cellar. No. It's the comedy center of Long Island. You know, of course, you take on the big dog, and the big dog, in this case, is the comedy cellar. But, like, Noam, like, as...

You give him, you know, like, the opportunity to perform here, right? Yeah, yes. So he goes up. He does what he does. He doesn't address it. He does his thing. Like, what's next? Like, was that him testing the waters?

Like, was that, is there a thing where he just keeps going up and people are getting pissed or they, or they accept it or they like, well, I don't, that's, that's my, if I were Louie's manager, I would say to him, listen,

dude, if you, if they're even going to give you another chance in the world, you're going to do not blow it again. You need to say something next time. I think if he doesn't, um, but again,

I think it would be quite interesting from the point of view of someone who cares about this issue to see that kind of stubborn thing. As a matter of fact, I would even say to him, if there's some reason that you feel you can't say a real apology, that you really think that you've been wronged here, then it'd be even better for you to come out and say, listen, this is what really happened. This is the way we were. This is what happened. And that's why I feel that way.

Because it kind of implies that he thinks the story is not the way that we've read it. And that's fine. By all means, say so, Louis. Stranger things have happened. But to not defend himself, and yet also not acknowledge the story that's out there, that becomes untenable, I think. Right?

No, I think so. I mean, I do believe personally that he will. Like, I do think he'll make a comeback. I don't know if performing here was his right move on the track to making a comeback. Maybe it was too soon and we're living in a very crazy time. But I

was talking to somebody and we were discussing that I thought after the whole thing happened that in a year and a half, two years, Louis would do a stand-up special about it. You got your finger on the pulse of what the young comedians are saying, particularly young female comedians that are newer in the business. What's your sense in terms of how they feel about all of this?

Oh, I don't think they like it. They don't like that he came back? No, I don't think so. I mean, I really don't think that a lot of female comedians have a lot of respect for him right now. Or a lot of women in general. I mean, I respect his art. I don't respect his actions. But I acknowledge the fact that he's an amazing comedian.

And I don't know. There's a difference between... I mean, he went on for 15 minutes, okay? It's not like he sold out Madison Square Garden. Can you just tell everybody, have I ever met you before? Probably. I don't know. Where? Because I don't remember ever meeting you before.

Well, did I ever talk to you about this? No. Did anybody talk to you about this? Anybody here at the table? No. Did I have any way of knowing what your position was? In other words, I'm saying that you sat down. You could have just as well told me you think it's the worst thing in the world that Louis came back.

I'm afraid that people are going to think there's some kind of setup. Oh, no, no, no, no. I did not plan this at all. I'll put it another way. I'm not happy that you're saying what you're saying, actually. I meant to say, I didn't mean to say earlier. I want to clarify that I did not say I was happy. I mean, I was...

I don't know. I was interested. You can say you're happy. I just want to make sure that nobody thinks that I brought in a ringer. No, no, no. This is not the Sean Hannity show. No, no, no. This is not Sean Hannity. I am not Kimberly Guffoyle or whatever the fuck people on Fox News are.

Hannah, I did have some questions about something you wrote. Sure. Let's do it. What is it? Can I really quickly add that that's something that I've been thinking a lot about

is what we're losing in these situations so often is that there are a lot of young women, a lot of women, period, who are fans of Louis. So not only are we losing in this kind of moral cultural ethical way like as a society

right but it's hard to see your heroes fall in this way or to be disappointed again it comes down to like I invested in you and I care about you and your art makes me feel good or smart or it makes me it challenges me and so to have somebody who occupies that role for you in some way

fail you or fail another person is hard, I think. And it makes it a more challenging question than when it's some random person on the other side of the world and you don't. Then it's easier to disavow them entirely, right? But when it's someone who means something to you, then it's a question. It's how do we move forward? And those are genuine questions, not always sort of black and white or not always obvious things. But we do have to, I think, really dig in and figure out

what feels right for everybody involved. No, I would never even say that I was a particular fan of Louis. I wasn't really, it wasn't somebody that, I was like, oh my God, I love his comedy. But when I did watch it,

I was like, the writing's really good. His timing's amazing. His material is amazing as well. And you know... He's a big talent. Nobody can deny it. That's part of what makes it so painful. Exactly. So, one of the articles... Maybe I shouldn't even... I will. What the hell?

You seem like you're not going to get mad at me. One of the arguments you made said... Where is it? It's also worth noting that the people most likely to serve time. You were making a reference to all the people. Oh, the use of like prison language.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You said that it's worth noting that the people that do not belong to the same demographic as Louis C.K. I think, and the people who... I got cut off. Michael Ian Black. What's that? Michael Ian Black. And his defenders.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, as Louis C.K. and defenders, something like that. Yeah. And that bothered me because I was saying, well, I make certain arguments.

And I feel those arguments are valid or not valid based on kind of the words on the page. In other words, if I were a black guy who owned a comedy club, and I said exactly the same thing, you would lose that argument. In other words, you wouldn't be able to point out that I'm not the same demographic as the people in prison. So I'd be like, well, my idea of the way the world ought to work is that when somebody makes an argument, you shouldn't even have to know what their demographic is, what their age, what their color, who in the world that looks like them has done something bad.

The words on the page, the logic of their arguments either holds or it doesn't hold. And if it doesn't hold, it doesn't hold. And I think that we all talk about ad hominem attacks are a bad thing, but we sometimes don't realize when we're making them. Yeah. And I think that any reference to the demographic of a person who makes an argument is an ad hominem attack. I would never do it the opposite way. I would never get away with dismissing

somebody's argument because they were black. Not in a million years. It would be offensive. Not because blacks are wise. It's offensive because the notion that what they say can in any way be diminished by their race is an ad hominem attack.

Let me deal with what they said. Well, first of all, Noam, you're mansplaining. I'm not mansplaining. Noam, you didn't get the joke. Oh, I'm sorry. How did you miss that obvious joke that you're saying your opinion shouldn't be judged by who you are, and I said you're mansplaining?

I'm the guy who doesn't get anything. Go ahead. No, no, no. I don't think the point is that it's diminished. I think it's that it's affected. I think everybody everybody's life is affected by their life experiences my life is partly affected by the fact that i grew up in california that my parents are from ethiopia all these different things affect where your parents from ethiopia ethiopia yeah yeah affect how i see the world because they they're they are affect how other people see me

your first generation yeah yeah my parent yeah um and so like oh we're gonna go somewhere else with this but um no i think the reason that i pointed that out is that people tend to just have more well you're not jewish are you no no no but we know we can later we'll get to that yeah um but you know i think it's easier for us to have empathy for people whose experiences are similar to ours it's just how people are right and so one of the reasons that I pointed that out specifically with regard to using prison-related language is that people who have more proximity to the kinds of people who are regularly

and unfairly criminalized are less likely to invoke prison-related metaphors because it just feels closer to you. And so it's not to say that you cannot understand X, Y, and Z because you're not a black person or from a low income community. It's just that I, I'm going to be more careful when I use famine related language or drought related language because it feels more personal. You have a point.

I didn't, I actually didn't, didn't understand that. Yeah. And that makes sense to me. Oh, I'm glad. I'll accept that. Okay. No, I really didn't. I didn't.

I missed that. It's just if you grow up seeing people get arrested for little things, you just don't think about the police and criminalization the same way. And you wouldn't refer to somebody being at home for nine months as being criminalized, right? Because you know what it looks like to have a friend come back from solitary. Okay. Yeah. So I'm going to say point Hannah on that one.

You win that one. I'm not doing that. That wasn't obvious to me, but maybe because I'm also in the category of the people for whom that wouldn't be obvious to. Now, you also, and this I feel more strongly about, you also tended to think that Louis hasn't been punished. Now, I got to tell you, first of all, just this week that I went through with the hit mail, the attacks online, whatever, and I'm not exposed as a public pervert, whatever it is, and my children are not yet

old enough to have to understand all this, whatever it is, but just what I've been going through, my God, I might prefer to spend a week in jail. And where nobody knew about it. It's punishment. Now, Louis has been lost,

his movie, his show, this and that, $30, $40 million. Netflix. Netflix. His children are humiliated and he's known for the rest of his life as a pervert,

or whatever you want to call it. And he can known for the rest of his life as a pervert, or whatever you want to call it. And he can't perform. And I don't think it helps to not admit that that's quite a punishment. No court of law would have ever even thought about that level of punishment for an indecent exposure charge. Not in a million years, not in any planet we want to live on. It is so far more suffering than we would expect the criminal justice system to hand out if Louis had been lucky enough that what he did was a crime

so he could have just paid his time or whatever. So I want to say that. I think that he's going to be punished the rest of his life. And you can say he deserves it or not deserves it, but people shouldn't think it's not real punishment. I don't think anybody really went so far as to say he's not being punished at all or that there aren't clear effects for his actions. Clearly, he will have to contend with this in a lot of serious ways.

That's actually, Noam brought up an interesting point. What is the punishment for indecent exposure? I mean, assuming this was indecent exposure. It's probably not jails, probably community service or less, or even first offense, nothing. Sex offender list, possibly. You know what? If I were in charge of the Me Too movement,

I would be more focused on prevention in the future than trying to get a pound of flesh in the past. In other words, what Louis did, obviously the justice system is not treating it with the seriousness that the people who it happens to feel that it warrants. I used to feel this way about mugging. People I knew would be mugged. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And they would just let the guy go, and they were traumatized the rest of their life. I'm like, no, these muggers need to spend a fucking year in jail for what they did to my friend. Yeah. So now we're learning maybe that this kind of thing is similar and that we don't realize. So then, A, maybe they should punish it with six months in jail

because, A, that's should punish it with six months in jail. Because, A, that's a strong way of indicating societally to dudes. That's a serious thing you're thinking about doing. That's a crime. This is, you know, I talk to women a lot, trying to ascertain just how traumatic that kind of experience

would be. My initial reaction is, was, as like many men, well, Louisa Perb wasn't a big deal. Yeah. That was my initial reaction. I tried to talk to women about it. And some, by the way, agree with that sentiment. Of course.

More than a few women say, yeah, I didn't think it was that big a deal. Other women bring up this notion of freezing, friend of freezer, where women can actually be frozen, which I would have never considered. But we didn't know about it. But we didn't know. And the thing is, I as a man shouldn't be chastised for posing the question, just how bad is it? Because I think it's a question worth posing, and it's a question with no unanimous answer among the women with whom I've spoken. Well, clearly, no, women who say it's not that bad are saying how it wouldn't be that bad to them.

I don't think they're saying it's not that bad to the women who take it badly. But how bad it is to the average woman is a measure of how bad it is. I mean, I don't know. It seems to be bad. It seems to be bad. It seems to be bad. I mean, judging by the sincere sentiment. I agree that it is bad.

Yeah. It's bad. Right? And it's, I think. I can never conceive of doing something like that. Right.

I think it's bad. Yeah, it's weird. It also makes you feel like your work doesn't matter. Right? Anytime I've had a superior, anytime I've had like

an editor or something, you know, take me out to coffee to talk about story ideas and then it's the hand on the leg. It's like, okay, so you don't care about my writing. And then that sort of both, I mean, right. But it's like that sort of the cumulative effect of that, right. Is to make you feel that your artistic contributions don't matter. And you only matter to the extent that you are, you know, this body, this, whatever. And that, that's how do you measure that?

What makes what you're just, I agree with 100% don't get me wrong what makes it impossible in the real world is that from time to time when the guy you work with takes you out to dinner and puts your hand on your legs like oh I feel the same way right and that's where power comes into play right if it's rom-com plot ever. Sure. I married someone who worked for me. Yeah. She never considered me a sexual harasser, you know,

so, and I mean, how many people haven't met at work? Sure. There's also putting your hand on somebody's leg and pulling your dick out

in front of them. Right, right, right, right, right, right. I wasn't trying to make an equivalence there. No, I know. I know you are, but just for the record. Romantic gesture.

Right. No, but she's talking about the fact that you feel that men, even when you think they're taking you seriously, when you peel it away, they're still not taking me seriously. Yeah, often. And that's the thing that is sort of in the back of your mind. He's going about it like a gentleman, but he's still not taking me seriously.

By the way, in decent exposure, according to findlaw.com, one of the few cases where the penalty is specifically laid out, it is punishable by $500 fine and no jail time, class B misdemeanor, and would not affect you. What state is that? This is what state? Well, I don't know what state. It's federal law.

It's federal law. Well, there's got to be state laws, too, then. Whatever. It's not a question I imagined asking today, but does indecent exposure refer only to exposing oneself, or does it also include masturbating? I would imagine. I actually don't know.

I don't know. This is what I've, I haven't gotten into that, but all I can tell you is this. The New York Times headline said, Louis C.K. accused of sexual misconduct. And I believe that's because the lawyers, when they analyzed it, felt that they couldn't use the word,

they couldn't use the language of any crime. They felt that he wasn't accused of any crime. I think they would have if they could have. So working backwards, I think that this is at least a gray area of whether you're committing a crime or not. Just again to speak as a comic, like for a female comic, it's just a reminder

like you were saying, when somebody takes you out to dinner and you're like, oh I thought this was professional, now it's just a reminder like you were saying, when somebody takes you out to dinner and you're like, oh, I thought this was professional. Now it's not. That is a specific thing that I have never had to deal with as a male comic and probably never will deal with at this point. Somebody exposing

themselves to me or being aggressively sexual. It certainly can happen. You've never had a woman sexually aggressive with you? Yes, I have. But the difference between those two things, the variance between, like, they've never, like,

ripped their clothes open and tried to, you know... I mean, it's never been that. You wouldn't find that traumatic. I wouldn't find it traumatic, but I'm saying that... No, but it could happen when a gay man

could certainly do that. Yeah, but this is so common, is what I'm saying. It's so common that we don't have to... Yes, we don't have to deal with this. They have to deal with this. And him coming back and doing this without talking about it is just a constant reminder.

Like, oh shit, this isn't going to get any better for me. I mean, the curse of being a... This isn't going to keep anything open to me. The curse of being a heterosexual woman to see how disgusting men are yet feel that you need one to marry, like to have a family. This is horrible.

Horrible. Kate, meaning you say what? Hannah is nodding. Oh no, I agree. The worst thing about me. As a young woman new in the comedy business, how do you perceive

what we've been discussing? Well, I mean, like growing up with my dad being a comedian, I kind of recognized that there was definitely a power imbalance between male and female comedians

at a young age. And that I do recognize that. And I understand if you go into this business as a woman in comedy, you have to expect for things like this to happen just as like you would if you were a woman going into the business profession

or into practicing law or into being a doctor. We live in a society where men still have the upper hand. Now how, you know, we, I mean, we discussed this. Just bringing up the possibility, the notion, the idea that maybe, maybe there might be some things women can do to decrease their own vulnerability

or their own exposure to this kind of thing is blaming the victim. Okay, but is it not fair to have that discussion? Can I amplify that? Go ahead. My wife said to me, she says, you know, and my wife, I guess she could talk this way because she's a person of color, she's Indian.

Anyway, she said, you know, we need to sit down with our daughter, our daughter's six, and we need to have the same conversation with her that black families have to have with their sons about how to handle themselves with the police. That was was my and i thought that was a very astute comment of my wives because that is really what is going to make a difference i think to saving women in the future so many i mean obviously if it's a physical violence issue. That's something else. But so many of these other types of scenarios, like the Louis thing,

a woman who is already kind of trained on how to deal with such a thing might have walked right out. Maybe. But I think that women think about this stuff all the time. And a lot of times when these kinds of things happen, it's because a breach of trust has happened. It's rarely...

It's not like Louis Storm... We've got to tell our daughters, do not trust anyone with opinions. I don't think anybody would have walked out. Yeah. Like, I don't know what you would have done.

You don't run screaming. This is a person who has a lot of power over you and you trust. What's the power? I never understood. No, because he's just in such a...

Hard power and soft power, right? I'm sorry to interrupt anybody. No, no, no, go ahead. No, no, you go. Wait, he's just like so highly regarded. Of course. You know what I mean? In 2002? I'm sorry to interrupt anybody. He's just so highly regarded. Of course. In 2002, was he? I mean, he

doesn't need to occupy the stratosphere. If I would have met him in 2002, I would have been pretty like... Why? Based on what? Just because I'm a comedy fan. Where would you have seen him in 2002? Do you really think, Kate, that the average woman would have stayed for the entire spectacle?

I don't think it lasted very long, Dan. Because they were frozen in fear or because they... I don't want to... I don't think we have to speculate about the specifics of that situation, right? But part of the reason that you freeze... I'm not saying they didn't freeze. I'm saying, do you think the average

woman would have also frozen? Well, yeah, because you don't know what else could happen. If you start walking away, if you start making moves to run to whatever, this person could get angered. I've thought about all the times I've walked down the street and somebody has said, like, hey, you know, like, I want to talk to you, you know, like, grab my arm or whatever,

and then suddenly it's escalated from me walking away from a cat call to me fighting off a person who's grabbing my arm and trying to assault me in that moment. You never know when that's going to happen, though. Can you answer me if this is fair? Because I got, this was one of the things I thought, what you just said, and I got kind of in trouble for it, which is that I don't doubt for a minute

that those women sat there because they were scared, as you're saying. Right. But I criticized the reporter for not asking them, were you scared? Meaning, because they could have also said, as you're saying. But I criticized the reporter for not asking them, were you scared? Meaning, because they could have also said,

nah, it's not that I was scared, it's just that it's a jackass. You know, like, that is totally possible. And I felt like there was much of it as like,

you know, you've assumed that the reason they said was because they were scared and it could totally be that. But that's not for a journal a journal is like like you need to ask in a courtroom or whatever they would have to ask her yeah were you scared right and this kind of they need to hold their fire because what

happens is people just shut up and we know don't say a word don't ask a question because anything you say is just gonna you're gonna get fucked just like the the woman who complained about my rolodex like you know but the fact is there are reasonable questions that that that that an angel would ask you know it's like just to know what happened yeah and um yes we should not of course we should believe the victim when it's plausible and apparently true. A lot of times victims weren't believed simply because they were women. But that's not that we can't ask questions. And, you know, it's not like, I mean, we know all the, whatever. I'm just saying it would be better if reasonable people could give each other some room for error in what they say and what they ask and whatever it is, as long as they realize they're coming from in good faith.

And conversation. I feel like conversation should definitely be had between people asking questions about what actually happened instead of just at once believing everything that was said. But I believe everything that was said. But I believe everything that was said. But I'm saying in other cases like where this occurs. I mean, I don't know if... There needs to be some sort of process or something. No, not necessarily a process, but I think there has to be a dialogue.

You know? Right. Asking questions like, were you scared? Those are important questions. You know what I mean? Now, obviously, it could be traumatizing just to hear those questions. And this is something that we see

in courts of law where women are traumatized just reliving the experience. But what alternative is there other than to posing questions in terms of getting to know exactly what happened? I don't know that there's an alternative. Especially if it's extra weird because it was a workplace,

but it was not a workplace. It wasn't a workplace. Like when they were in the hotel. Yeah, that's not a workplace. The other one, Rebecca Corey was a workplace. Oh, right, she was. Yeah, yeah. But she...

You know, you said something before that... Talking about Hannah. What's that? Hannah. Hannah. Said something before that I thought was... Hannah. Hannah. You said something before that I thought was very correct about empathy because people assume you're supposed to be empathetic

to the world, but that's not the way it works. Right. It's easy to be empathetic to your family, your children. Of course. Nobody has to teach you that. Right.

But for instance, it was just like 10 minutes ago, all of Hollywood was giving a standing ovation to Roman Polanski and signing petitions that they thought he was treating. So the empathy to that girl's situation with Roman Polanski, that wasn't apparent to almost anybody. It actually was to me. He was a familiar figure to us, right? And that's what's starting to change now. And that's what's interesting to see.

So you have to alert people to empathy, but also, there is something wrong with saying, you know, I didn't get it either when Roman Polanski,

but now that I realize it, anyone who hasn't yet realized it is a fucking monster. Right, right, right. And that's what's going on. It's like Obama. Obama was against

gay marriage. It was okay to be against gay marriage. As soon as Obama came out with gay marriage, anybody against gay marriage who didn't reach to be against gay marriage. As soon as Obama came out for gay marriage, anybody against gay marriage who didn't reach it at Barack Obama's schedule,

9.05 on Saturday night, now at 9.06, anybody who doesn't realize it is a fucking Neanderthal, it doesn't make sense. If Barack Obama couldn't get it, this thoughtful, liberal, President of the United States,

Harvard Law School, if it took him a while to come around to it, maybe the guy working at the mill might be allowed a little extra time. So these are important things to think about. And so

I... The mill is a gay bar, of course. I'm saying that I am from these conversations developing an empathy for these things that I might not have had before. And I think that I've always been, I've never been someone, I've always been a gentleman, I believe.

I mean, for me to come out with this stuff as I have, if I thought I had Me Too accusations out there, I mean, it's like taunting. But I hope that I've always been a gentleman. But it's true, as. Right, right. But I hope that I've always been a gentleman. But it's true. As I see sincere reactions of people and women telling me stories, I'm like, you know, there's more to this than I realize. Yeah.

You know, one of my favorite examples, I think this is a slightly separate thing. I think it's really hard to make a good rape joke, but I think the best one that I can think of off the top of my head is Wanda Sykes, the one about the detachable pussy, where she says, like, have you ever wished that you could just leave it at home so you go for a run? Oh, yes, an old geographer.

But it's amazing, right? Because the core of that joke is that, like, if I didn't have this thing that makes me vulnerable and if I didn't present to the world in a way that makes me a target, I could be able to run freely. I could be able to live my life freely. And I think that that's...

I just found that to be one of the most interesting examples of how comedy can be that bridge, of hey understand my world understand what it would be like to be able to just take this thing off and go for a run wouldn't that be amazing you don't have to think about that do you right and that's it can happen in those spaces we're just about out of time I do want to ask you a question as a journalist when I read your article yeah I I took you to be much that it was you were going to be much more angry, I guess, or strident. I didn't know you were a woman of color, by the way. I thought she was Greek.

I get that a lot. Her name, what's your last name? Georgis. Sounds Greek to me. And I thought that it was going to be, like I was bracing myself for a tough one. And you haven't given an inch really, but I find it a very, but you are willing to listen to nuance. Well, most people in person are real people. So let me, that's right.

So my point is that, do you think it's a criticism of your writing that, and wouldn't the writing be more persuasive to a guy like me, that you're willing to accept the nuance of the situation was far deeper than what came across in that essay? I mean, we have more than 800 words worth of space right here. So I think that... Then the answer would be yes, but I have no choice. Yes and no.

I think that the point I like reading writing that I sometimes disagree with sure but where I can follow how the writer got to what they got to so if I can follow their logic and I can say okay I'll take this portion I'll take this morsel of it the rest of it it's not working for me it's not vibing

with me cool but it was interesting to follow your thought process. That to me, and I can see that there was some rigor and some real thought put into this and it wasn't just some slapdash thing that you woke up and did. And that you were thinking about the context of the world that you live in and that we all occupy. I appreciate that. I don't always need to feel like that person

has to explain, you know, like hold my hand through all the little things. But some people do and some people want that. I think it just depends on what you're looking for from a writer. What each individual piece can do form-wise. Well, but yeah, I understand. But as a matter of a persuasive writing, I am much more persuaded when I feel that the person I'm reading, they understand my side of this too.

Yeah. And they're not just talking over my head. Yeah. They've actually, they understand my side of this, too. Yeah. And they're not just talking over my head. Yeah. They've actually, they understand my side of it, and they've actually thought about it, and they've granted whatever merit they see in it, and yet still they feel this way. Right. And then I'm like, oh, you know, that's... I feel like I use the phrase to be sure.

And like, well... All right, who else wants to say something? Well, I just want to say, Noam, kudos. I said it before, or maybe I haven't said it before, but I think you could be a very successful pundit. You might have to work a little bit on your elocution. Sometimes you mumble, and you are long-winded. But I don't see anybody that I see, whether it's Ben Shapiro or whether it's Sam Harris. I don't know anybody more logical and that brings up points.

You bring up points that I don't hear anybody bringing up. Thank you. You might want to consider that as a new career. Unfortunately, you're too rich and too privileged to really want to, you know, take on another, you know, thing. But anyway, Jim Too thing. Anyway. Kim Tooze. Now we kind of hijacked

your show here. Maybe you want to come back again? I think we'll invite Kate to come back. Originally I invited her. I thought we'd talk about following in her father's footsteps and growing up with Kevin a little bit, but we didn't have time. No, it's okay. I really enjoyed this conversation. More hate mail?

No? Somebody just... Please write us emails to podcast at comedyseller.com. Podcast at comedyseller.com. Jim, you want to say anything? I think I got most of it out. All right. All right.

Well... And credits... Twitter handle? No, his podcast. At Jim Toozy and my podcast, Quitting Comedy. I talk to comics about what they do if they quit. Oh, I know somebody you should call. I know.

Oh, that'd be a dream guest. Sounds like an interesting podcast. Turns out he's not going to quit. That's the rub there. He's, I don't understand him. Okay, so, and I hope that you, that this is better than you thought it would be, Hana. I don't understand him okay so and I hope that you that this is better than you thought it would be

Hannah I read the Hollywood Reporter thing and I knew that there had been some thought here I must confess to being a Cornelia who was sitting in and listening she wasn't on mic she left about five minutes after the beginning of the conversation

she left upset and I'm concerned about that. I'm not sure what was said. At the top of the show, it was particularly non-controversial. I mean, had she stayed till... All right, all right, all right. I don't want her to hear this and think we're... A little bit later, I could maybe see what she might have pissed her off with. Anyway...

I think that, I mean, to defend Cornelia, people who are, I hate to use the word triggered by this, but people who really, this really bothers them, are very sensitive to it, and the reaction is sincere, even if we might feel,

I feel like you're overreacting, but it's hard to tell somebody that. This means a lot to her, and I think when Kate said that she was happy he was back. I didn't mean it was happy. No, but I think she was. Yeah, no, that was totally misphrased of my words, so I apologize for that,

but no, I said I was glad to see. I don't know. I didn't really read the full thing. Maybe you have mixed feelings. Is that fixed? No, I think he definitely needs more time. I don't want to get bragged here, but I talked to Cornelia for half an hour,

and she was very nice and very reasonable and not belligerent at all. So I'm just going to say that. She's listening. Okay. Well, Kate, do you have any social media presence? Oh, yeah. Follow me on Twitter Kate Meany 2

when's your next show by the way tomorrow I'm with Jessica Kirsten at Broadway Comedy Club Kirsten Kirsten Kirsten

oh and then all my stuff is just on the Atlantic just Hannah Georges that's the organ that fired Kevin Williamson I believe alright

goodnight everybody thank you I was waiting That's the organ that fired Kevin Williamson, I believe. All right. Good night, everybody. Thank you. I was waiting for that.