The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - How to Start a Revolution

Episode Date: November 1, 2019

Lauren Duca and Gibran Saleem

You're listening to The Comedy Cellar, live from the table, on the Riotcast Network, riotcast.com. Good evening, everybody. Welcome to the Comedy Cellar Show here on Sirius XM Channel 99. My name is Noam Dwarman. I'm the owner of the Comedy Cellar and host of this podcast. Dan Natterman, the great Dan Natterman, is not here tonight. We have, of course, Perrielle Aschenbrand. Aschenbrand? Is that correct?

Yes. I can never pronounce it correctly. I believe you're Aschen Perry L. Ashenbrand. Ashenbrand? Yes. I can never pronounce it correctly. I believe you. I believe you. Ashenbrand. Very Ashenbrand. And we have guests. He's been, it's like, your third or fourth time on the show, right?

Second time. No. Yeah. We just argue at the table? We just argue at the table. It feels like a podcast every time I'm here, though. Gibran Salim is a New York City-based comedian, has been featured on FX, MTV, and Stand Up NBC.

What's Stand Up NBC? I was like a finalist for their... They have a competition every year for new talent. Is that like that Will Smith? I mean, Will Silvins? He does a short film test. This was a stand-up version that I did. You look at me, though, immediately as though I wrote something incorrect.

John Lasseter was a winner of it before, too, actually. John Lasseter? Yeah. And a guest of honor, Lauren Duca. Did I pronounce her name right? Duca is right? You know, I was going to say, though, I don't know. Any time two men are talking, that actually is a podcast.

So those all counted. Yeah. Cool. Awesome. Lauren Duca is a freelance journalist and author of How to Start a Revolution, Young People and the Future of American Politics. That's right. Welcome.

Thank you. So let's get right to it. And actually, Dan, who's our call host, who actually is a big fan of yours, but he couldn't be here. But he actually sent along some questions. He always complains about the guests and about me, and then he was really excited that you were coming, and then he couldn't be here. I miss him. Now, this is quite an insightful question. He says, Lauren, you have a new book called How to Start a Revolution

What sort of revolution do you have in mind? That's actually a good question Yeah, a revolution of citizenship, of what we think of of democratic agency So basically what I'm focusing on in this book is a political awakening from passively navigating a broken

system to actively seeking to change it. And the way it's occurring, especially in youth-led movements and insurgencies. And we've been alienated as a public, not just young people, from feeling as if we have the self-determination to make serious change, to have a serious impact in the political conversation. And there's this shift from that state of alienation to one of awakening. And I'm trying to build it into a sustainable culture of resistance in which we are all regularly

taking democratic action and building equitable public power from the accumulation of individual action into collective impact. You sound like Gibran. Yes, for sure. I'm so politically motivated. I'm just very edgy. I'm not. I'm very laid back. I had questions from that, though. How do you define resistance. I think that's really insulting, patronizing, and quite rude.

You know, people can raise their voice on social media for sure. But so what raising your voice actually means is making your political opinions manifest. And so there's a lot of different actions you can choose to do that. You can contact elected officials. You can use your money to make donations. You can dedicate your body to a protest. I think it's possible to organize on social media, and I hate that people diminish it because it needs to be part

of the way that we organize and the way that we share stories that are able to get past the gatekeepers. I wouldn't say I was diminishing it. I was just pointing out which media. Yeah, I really don't like the way people talk about oh, resistance, Twitter. I think it's really annoying.

But it seemed like you have a preconceived notion about Twitter itself. Because I don't really think I was actually saying that in the majority. Yeah, yeah, so I think that is in the conversation. And I guess I just want to say, you know, there's a democratizing force that's really possible in social media. And it's a lot of the way that young people especially are sharing stories. So I have a big interest in advocating for using social media because that's where young people live, and that's where they're communicating with each other, and I think it can be a really effective tool for change.

Can I call you Lauren? Or Mary? Or Jackie? What were you thinking? I love some other names. So Mary. Ah, great. Now, I'm a little

taken aback here and maybe this is going to be awesome because this, you've kind of given an extreme example of like what about today's culture

really disturbs me which is that he, now he's a pretty woke. Can I just say something? Yeah. I don't love the way this is going

and I'm not going to be doing it in this combative mode. It's a productive conversation about social media and move the ball along. Okay, so let me just say. Move the ball along or I'm leaving.

So let me just say that when he said what did you mean by resistance? A tweet that's diminishing. One second. He actually said that because he didn't know what she meant by resistance. And I then made a comment about the cultural state of social media and how it can be used for resistance. But to be insulted by it. I wasn't insulted.

Well, you said you were. I made a point. You said you were insulted and diminished. I'm insulted by that idea. I think it's diminishing. And then I clarified why. And that's combative. He wasn't being combative.

Yeah, I didn't think I was being combative. And I was genuinely curious. That wasn't like an attack. No, no, no. On the mic't like an attack. On the mic. On the mic. On the mic. Can't have dead air. Tell me what you're upset about.

I don't understand why this is a photo conversation. Okay, let's talk about it. No, no, no. This is... No, because this isn't... We can get off this if this is... No, but this isn't how this happens, and I really want to know what is upsetting so we can... I really want to know what is upsetting so we can... I really want to know what is upsetting

to you. I'll tell you if you won't get mad at me if you don't agree with me. I'm not mad. Because you're already talking about walking out. I'm being very honest. I'm reluctant to say what I'm thinking because I don't want you to go have a walk out and I don't

quite know what might get you to do that so I'm nervous. I have no want you to go have a walk out and I don't quite know what might get you to do that so I'm nervous. I want to have a good conversation. I also did not mean to offend you. I wasn't trying to come from a charged point of view. We can't restart. We'll go from here. I would like to start

again. I'm not going to restart it. I'm available to start from the top. I will ask, I'm not, I won't think we need a fresh start. No, I'm not going to restart it. Okay. I'm available to start from the top. Alright. So let's, I will ask you a different question. No, I'd like to start from the top. No, I'm not going to restart it from the top. Okay. I don't think that's customary. I would like to

start from the top. Nobody, nobody, I would restart it from the top if somebody... I think we got off on a bad foot. I think you can agree. I'd like to start from the top and start fresh. You're not pronouncing people's names correctly. You're asking questions about what's resistance to tweet. It's diminishing to me and my work. I'm a serious journalist. I'm not having a conversation like this. If you'd like to start

again, I would like to start again and have a productive conversation with you. I'm not going to start again. Okay. Then we're going to have to call it. Okay. That's up to you. Can I just say that I really don't want you to be upset. Why can't we just start from the beginning? Well, I don't think that Gibran would ever be rude to anybody,

let alone a guest on this show. That wasn't even a charge, and I wasn't trying to insult you. What do I mean by resistance? A tweet? I wrote a book about youth political movement. What do I mean by resistance? A tweet? I think it's a fair question to ask how you define a word you're using. I think it's also, and I'll take the heat for this,

if this, like, we always have a comic. And she never takes the heat for it. No, we always have a comic on, and like, it's part of, just because it's the comedy seller, to sort of, like, lighten. It was not, and also, I would just love to start from the top.

Why can't we not just start from the top now? Well, I, before we address that, I also think that when Noam asked you, can I call you Lauren? Like he was really trying to like make sure that that was how you were comfortable being addressed. I mean,

I don't know. We have all kinds of people on this show all the time. I have no idea. But, like, nobody is trying to be disrespectful. I'll ask my next question, and you can answer it or you can leave. You can do whatever you want. I don't want that to be the way this conversation is put out into the world. I would really like to start again.

I'm sorry, but this is a show, and it's live to tape, and that's what you did. Nobody forced you to do it. Okay. I would say that if you had a magic wand, I would like to know, what would you do? Like, what laws would you pass? What would you change in society? Because I think where he was struggling— Have you even read my book?

No, I have not read your book. Well, I don't really want to do an interview with someone who has no idea what my work is about. But even if I had read the book, I would still have to ask you the question because the people listening— I don't know what your work is about. She's read your book. Well, I don't really want to do an interview with someone who has no idea what my work is about. But even if I had read the book, I would still have to ask you the question because the people listening— We do know what your work is about. She's read the book because the people listening haven't read it, so it's still a valid question. I mean, we would never have invited—we don't invite people on here to be disrespectful or rude or— I've read accounts of your book. I mean, I have some idea what's in the book, but I haven't read the book.

Well, I don't really understand why you're interviewing me about a book if you haven't read your book. I mean, I have some idea what's in the book. I haven't read the book. I don't really understand why you're interviewing me about a book if you haven't read my book. Okay, I guess I'm sorry it's not going to work out because I find it fascinating and, you know, the stuff that you're talking about is the stuff that I'm interested in. I think that if there is a... You misunderstood me. There is a thread in the culture

by which social media as a whole is dismissed and that was what I was trying to explain and then you tried to make it seem as if I was having some kind of catfight. And that's what really got most frustrating for me. You, not anything that he said. You acted as if I was having some ridiculous reaction. I'm telling you, I've seen young people frequently written off. And the reality is we need to take action and empower young people

to feel that they have a right to be registered and to feel that they have a right to be registered and voting, that they have a right to be contacting elected officials and making donations, and that social media is a place that we can have the conversations that start that behavior. So how do we do that? There's a lot of ways. How should I start? Well, my book is about watching the examples of young people that we see in action. For example, I interview Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, David and Lauren Hogg, and other young people who had this awakening moment on November 9th where they felt a sense of urgency. They felt that there were the issues they had cared about before.

And what changed with Trump's election is they understood that the whole system is total bullshit and that we can't just be accepting it for what it is. So we should do what? Can you let me finish, John? Yeah, sorry. Jesus fucking Christ, dude. You're bad at this. So what I was saying is I take those examples and also look at a generational shift by which we are looking at people moving from passively moving through this system to actively seeking to change it at generational scale.

And I looked at this longitudinal ethnographic study called the Millennial Impact Report, where that behavioral change, that shift from alienation into the agency and self-determination of of constantly taking daily actions of political participation is already underway. And what I look at in my book is the factors that have gone into creating the sense of alienation in the first place. So at scale, in terms of the entire polity, there are major issues that go behind jail alienation. And they're just the reality that make our voices insignificant. Gerrymandering, the geographical biases of our election system, voter suppression, moneyed interests, those are the major things. And then the way that that's compounded by youth is by an idea of young people as naive,

as not yet ready to participate in the conversation and the sense that we have to wait for permission or earn our chance to have the right. And you can look at just the ages. Can we stop at one thing? Let's talk about gerrymandering. What's the impact? Sorry, so you asked me how we're going to do it, and I have to basically explain my whole book to answer a big abstract question like that.

So what's the impact of gerrymandering? No, wait, but you don't have to explain the whole book. Wait, so I want to finish the thread I was on, which is that what we are now seeing is this shift happening where we're challenging the idea that we are second-class citizens in the political system. And what it looks like is having more and more outreach to young people from elected officials whose responsibility it is to include more people in the conversation, more organizations that are directly reaching out and communicating to young people and led by young people and changing the terms of the conversation so that it doesn't look like the old

stuffy version of the way things are and it looks like the way we're having conversations on social media and that we're talking about politics the way that we're talking about each other basically what I'm looking to do and what's all I think is already occurring and I'm hoping to allow it to continue into action is this culture of constant democratic action. And you do seem to look pretty bored by that. I'm not bored. I'm just, I'm not bored. You know what, dude?

I'm nervous about. You're nervous? You should be nervous because you're really behaving like a complete asshole. Well, I mean, that seems a little bit much. I don't understand what's happening. I mean, that's not. He much. I don't understand what's happening. I mean, that's not... He's bored. He asked me about my book.

I'm not bored. I tell him he's not even listening. What is happening here? Hold on. I'll tell you very honestly, for better or for worse, I'm wondering what the specifics that you're advocating are. If you read the book, you might know. But wait a second.

Wait, wait, wait. No, no. I might be an idiot, and I'm not smart enough to pick it up from what you said, but I'm having trouble gleaning the specifics. I talk about gerrymandering. I'm wondering, what do you see as the impact of gerrymandering, since it's one of the things you want to end? So, gerrymandering totally warps the system by which our voices would have equal footing,

and a true democracy is that in which each individual person has the same political impact by the right of their vote. So, but my book is actually not about, my book is about. So I understand that, but I'm thinking like today, since the Democrats control the House and the Senate is not gerrymandered and the presidency is not gerrymandered, is that issue really a hot issue right now? That's a great question. Gerrymandering is always a major issue that totally warps the shape of our politics. But so basically what I'm talking about is the way that people can understand their involvement at all levels of government.

And we get so sucked into what's happening with the big game in the general election or even in Congress. And I, part of what I'm encouraging is for people to take impact at the local level. How? And have by looking at attending town halls, looking at their school board, running for office

for down-ballot elections in their community, registering people to vote in their community, contacting the people on their city councils, writing op-eds for their local papers. The list really does go on and on. And what would the specific op-eds, what would they call for? What should the school board,

what would you want the school boards to do? How do you want them to change? That's up to you. That's up to you. So each person needs to pick the issue that... So, hey, how about this? What's something that pisses you off in your local area? What's something in your neighborhood

that you think could be improved? The trash collection. The trash collection. So what would you do to make an improvement on that issue? Maybe you go, you find out who's your city council representative and say, hey, the trash is really piling up in my neighborhood. But what I'm advocating for is public equality of voice. So I'm saying we are at this place where people feel like they don't have any right to politics. And that's true, especially of young people, but it's true of all of us. We're like, hey,

this is how this is going to go down in Washington. Mitch McConnell's legislative graveyard is the state of the Senate. We can express, expect solutions for the climate crisis, gun reform, healthcare, all of these issues, riddling American life. What I'm, you're, what I'm advocating for is everyone being actively fighting for freedom, um, and using their political voices constantly as a daily habit. So voting isn't crucial. We all need to be registered and voting. But that's basically just the most bare minimum element of civic engagement. And everyone, I think, needs to—what I advocate in the end of my book is this call to action for your particular version of constant political participation.

What are the issues that bother you that you want to see changed? Well, I think we need serious climate crisis solutions, serious gun reform measured, affordable health care, addressing for income inequality, major reparations for racism, reproductive rights with real safe legal access to care at the national level is probably my package of ideal concerns. I think we need to reform immigration as well as a hot ticket. What would you do for immigration? I think that we need to provide safe access to the dream that this country has promised. I think we need a Marshall Plan to prevent the refugee crisis that has allowed for the humanitarian disaster at the border.

And I think that we... Would you open the border? I don't have an answer on that one. I don't know how to deal with the border because I'm not a presidential candidate. But I think that what we need is humane addressing of global citizenship. And the reality that a lot of the wealth and power of the American nation has been taken illegally and by force and by a system that has caused a lot of the need for safety and for opportunity that has caused people to come here. And I think we need to create pathways and celebrate immigration because it is the soul of the country. You look like an immigrant. Well, yes, all my family immigrated here.

I was born in North Carolina. Yeah. Go ahead. I don't want to... No. I don't know. I was just listening to what you were saying. I'm a little apprehensive to ask anything in fear of being attacked. If anyone can see, I'm actually

breathing fire straight into the microphone. There's actual smoke. There are bullets that come out of my tits, but you can't see it. Attack, yeah. If anyone can see, I'm actually breathing fire straight into the microphone. There's actual smoke. There are bullets that come out of my tits, but you can't see it. It's a shame. Go ahead. You can ask a question. You can ask anything you want. I honestly don't have any specific questions at the moment.

You just don't have a specific question? Do you believe in Martin Luther King's goal of a society that is colorblind and judges people just on the content of their character? Or do you believe that we should always racially count people in every aspect of society? Or something in between? I think that I would... My goal is equitable public power. My goal is equity. I think that right now, the reality is we live in a white supremacist capitalist patriarchy.

And there are... I have had... So is that why, for instance, why would we limit Asians at schools if we're worried about white supremacy patriarchy? Sorry, what? Why would we be limiting the number of Asians and, you know, finding strategies? I'm not, I don't know what you mean. We, our country... Wait, so you asked me first about do you want to have a race-blind society. I think

that's the goal, but we need to stop pretending that we're there right now because I have had so many privileges. We have so many privileges as a result of our whiteness and the amount of space we're able to take up, the amount of opportunities that are created, and just the footing that people of color have started on in this country and the way that land has been taken from them and their rights and their bodies have been abused by the history of the government. I think that that requires serious economic attention and that we can't push our differences out of the way as if in the 2004 Oscar winner crash, because it's totally absurd. And so, you know, I don't really have a, I don't have an intricate take on the Harvard case, which is what I assume you're

referring to. Not the Harvard case. It's in New York City. New York City is struggling with it now, too. They're trying various ways of getting around this by eliminating the entrance exams, by some other proposal out there. I don't remember what it was. Various ways of combating the fact that the Asian Americans are doing so well in so many ways.

And, you know, it's one of the things we talk a lot about on this show because it bothers Asian Americans are doing so well in so many ways. And it's one of the things we talk a lot about on this show because it bothers me because they're not privileged and they're not, and I feel like it's the enemy of immigration reform. You can't really expect to be bringing people over here and then tell them once they get here, but by the way, your SAT point is worth.75 of what a white guy's SAT point is.

I'm being very specific because I'm wondering, I'll be honest, I see your political, where you're coming from, I don't know what you call it, your point of view, to be very caught up, and I'm assuming you tell me if I'm wrong, in this kind of intersectional idea

that what matters very, very much about everybody is either their race or their nationality or their sexual preference. I think what matters very much about everybody is that we all have equal political footing. And so I don't know the intricacies of affirmative action in New York. It's not affirmative action. I don't know what you're talking about, basically.

But with your weird problem with Asians that you're going into, what I'm interested in is giving everybody equal political footing. I'm not a stupid person. And I don't think I've said one insulting thing to you and you seem to have such

I know that you've criticized the way people speak to each other on social media. It just doesn't seem as if you've actually read my book I've told you I have not read your book I don't understand why you're talking to me about whether or not high school admissions exams in New York are your standards

I listened to a few of your interviews and I read some accounts of your book. Like, for instance, I mean, just off the top of my head, I remember one of the things that you complained about

was that our kind of like gatekeepers misled us about Trump's chance of winning election. Yeah. And I know I'm way off the subject

and I was wondering why. Didn't they say he had a 25% or 30% chance of winning? Right, so they said it was totally impossible for him to win. That's not what that means. Let me give you an example. Can I explain what I meant? Hold on, let me tell you what I was trying to say before you tell me what I was trying to say, if you don't mind.

So I was talking about how our political and media gatekeepers, as I received it, I thought that it was totally impossible that Trump was going to win. Why did you think that? That's how it was presented to me by our authority figures. They presented it as a 25 or 30 percent chance of winning. My friend, what I'm trying to talk about is there's a lot of people in this country who didn't think that Donald Trump. Here, how about this? I was at the Huffington Post when we covered him as entertainment.

The Huffington Post said this guy is a joke. He's not really running for president. Let's put him in the entertainment section. I didn't feel like, it was presented that he was going to win. I didn't say they said his chance was zero. So that's your criticism of making up the lie. Well, so, but no, I'm not,

no, you're really misunderstanding me. What I'm saying is, what I had accepted are... I don't think I'm misunderstanding you. Can you explain? You know, but you're filibustering. Can you just let me finish? I don't know.

Do you ever feel like, it's not a conversation when you just, I mean, we're filibustering. Can you just let me finish? I don't know. Do you ever feel like it's not a conversation when you just talk over everybody? Wait, can I just say what I meant by the gatekeepers? I wish you would. You really didn't let me. So I said that I felt like it was endlessly authoritative that these people were saying he wasn't going to win. You knew he was going to win?

No, this is what I think. And when he did in fact win after... I can't even talk when you ask me a direct question. After it was presented as ridiculous, that is what gave me my awakening moment, because I had just been stomaching what was fed to me, and that was the point I was trying to make about that. Because this is the way I see it.

I knew he was going to win. This is a common thing I hear. You knew he was going to win, really? How? I called Alana Newhouse. Who is that? She's the editor-in-chief of Tablet Magazine, and I was like, this looks like it's really going badly.

This is why I think a lot of people went wrong. If I told you, you're about to spin the dice, and I told you what would it be. I told you you have an 18% chance of getting doubles. Okay. 82%. There's no way you're going to. 82% says you're not going to get doubles.

And then you roll doubles. Was I telling you something inaccurate? No. No. I mean, if I had the statistics. In other words, the odds that Trump was given in most places, especially by 538, were considerably better than the odds of rolling doubles. Uh-huh. And I was never understood why... And you're saying that was a

30% percentage that he was given. Well, if you knew he was going to win, I wish you would have told more people. I didn't. Nobody could know whether he was going to win or not. I swear to God I knew he was going to win. Hold on. What I'm saying is that we, as consumers of news, also have an obligation to say, okay, they told us that there was

a certain percentage that he would win. That doesn't mean he's not going to win. Just like if I tell you you have less than a 20% chance of rolling doubles, everybody rolls doubles. But didn't he not win, actually? He didn't win the popular vote, right? Oh, come on. He won. He's president.

He won. Russia? Anyone? Go ahead. he's president he won russia anyone yeah go ahead i i have a i have a separate question um i think it's a productive question so so from the beginning when you were talking it seems like a lot of what you're saying is also on the basis that young people you're saying are less motivated to make a like a to be politically vocal than the past or are they at a low now what were you saying motivated now oh they are more motivated now okay yes so so from the from seeing the system through trump so the political awakening is about moving from passively navigating

broken system to actively seeking to change it. It's kind of like you have this seeing the system for what it is and understanding that you have you have a role in the status quo. And so for a lot of people, they had it with Trump's win because this atrocious thing had happened. So we're getting caught up in the whether he won or not. And I was a little confused about why, because this is about this atrocious thing happening. For me, I had part of my my awakening was I had accepted the authority of political writers and I'm a political writer. So I said, well, hold on. These guys don't actually they're always pretending to be they have this endless expertise and they don't really know what they're talking about. But it can also look like seeing clearly the realities of racial injustice. So there were a

lot of the political awakening moment happened in mass numbers with Black Lives Matter before the election. And then again with Parkland and again with me too, it's about seeing the entirety of the system and understanding your role within it and insisting on political agency and more young people are granting themselves that permission. And you're advocating for more for just to keep up that general increase in young people feeling like they have a more significant political voice.

Yes, and a sustainable constant one in which we're taking these regular daily actions and understand the political conversation as something that we all, like I want to make it uncool to say I just don't care about politics or I just don't know about politics. I feel like it's already uncool. Yeah, we're getting there. We're getting there. I wanted

to understand that we all are taking regular actions as well to make our political opinions manifest. And not all of them, like we all don't have to be experts and know everything all the time. But, you know, like what I think everybody should have. What is your issue and what is your thing that you are using your time to change? What is the way that everyone is actively participating in the question we ought to live together? I don't think enough young people feel that they have that sense of permission, that right to a voice. I think that I'm even talking about young people below the age of 18. You're a political subject the second that you have a fully functioning frontal cortex. I mean, even before politics is affecting you,

I think that those young people who don't even have the right to vote yet should have a role and be taking political action. But what do they know about anything at that age? Well, a young person who's in high school can tell you about the state of the school and what they're learning. They can tell you their father's addicted to opioids. They can tell you they're dealing with bankruptcy at home. They can't really give you, yes, I agree with that. I'm not saying you can't learn anything from them. But they don't have

the depth of knowledge to be able to judge policy decisions. I guess what makes... I don't know. I think there's a lot of adults we could say that for, too. So what's it all based on, you know? We do the best we can. You're right. There are a lot of adults. But let me ask you this question. I don't know how old you are.

How old are you, Ron? I'm not going to dare to ask her. 34. I'm 28. 28. Do you find that as you get older, you get wiser? Generally, yes. I would say that.

Would you say that, Lauren? Comedically, sometimes. I think... I shouldn't be funny i think yes and no i think i think that there's a magic of youth in its hopefulness and in its idealism and that is valuable and and i sort of agree with that too actually i i have an interesting um i feel like at a generational scale we're looking at this like tension between boomers and millennials with like the okay boomomer thing this week.

And I feel like even just between me and my dad, I see there's been this parenting where a younger generation is called the trophy generation. We've been all built up to be told that we believe we can do anything, allegedly. But then I feel like then we're smacked back down. And I think that there's a belief in a better system that we don't even know exists yet. Like, if we could really get millions of people invested in the political process, if we could really have congressional races that were turning up more than 10% of turnout, if it wasn't actually exciting that the numbers that we saw in the midterms were historic for youth, and they were still so low. If we had people really voting all the time and constantly taking this action, I think that a system is possible that is beyond our

wildest dreams and I think that's the wisdom of youth is the idealism and willingness to believe in that possibility. Isn't that related to the fact that I think this is correct what I'm about to say that this current generation is unprecedentedly not

supporting themselves as like 40, 50 years ago people did. They're incidentally not supporting themselves as, like, 40, 50 years ago people did. They're not out, like, even when I was a kid, but even before, like, my father's generation. You were 18. You were out the door. You were supporting yourself. You were a man or you were a woman. And when you are then facing the world, then you're concerned about policies.

You're concerned about politics because you're concerned about taxation. You're concerned about these things because they affect you. When you're living, like I have a 26-year-old living with me, you know, I don't think he should be able to vote. But I'm like, you know, whatever it is that's bothering him, it might be legitimately bothering him, but he's so sheltered from all the real world. It's such a skewed view of things that he has. Like when you,

and there's no question that when he gets out there and he has to support himself and he has a couple of kids and he maybe has a business or a job to worry about, he's going to look back at this 26 year old self and say, what the fuck was I thinking? I didn't know what I was talking about then. And I think that's the natural progression. But look at somebody like Greta,

right? Like, isn't she like, I don't want to mispronounce her last name. Thunberg. I don't know who this is. The little girl who addressed

the UN about climate change. I mean, she's an amazing example of... I mean, I don't know. I was super politically active when I was 15. I grew up in Queens. I saw really fucked up know. I was super politically active when I was 15. I grew up in Queens. I saw really fucked up shit. I was escorting women into abortion clinics

on the weekends. I feel like... That's really rad. I mean, it was amazing. I used to break into the drugstores and put PETA stickers on products that tested on animals. So I do feel like... Can I comment on her?

Yeah. I was not one who bashed her. Yeah. I think that A, there are always outliers, and she might be a genius. I don't know. Wait, but millennials, the idea that young people are all privileged and sheltered

isn't fair either. A lot of us are working multiple jobs in a gig economy, struggling to pay off student loans. I mean, surely that's a valid political experience. But I'm saying statistically, many, many more millennials living at home are being supported than previous generations. But because of the shape of the economy that's making it harder for us to get good jobs, I think we'd all like to be able to support ourselves. I don't know if that's it. It's probably related to that.

I think it's more than one reason. I think both of what you guys are saying are factors. But I do think. What kind of drink, Perry? We've kind of found some common ground. No, Perry, I'll sit down because I want you to hear this. We've kind of found some. Please.

I need a drink. You guys are stressing me out. What do you want? Ask Maru. Maru, can you get her a drink, please? So I want to ask the feminists. You should have ordered the drink into the microphone. I want to ask the feminists and the moms here a question.

Me. Aren't you guys feminists? Of course. I'm a mom and a feminist. Answer this question and tell me. So I have two kids A little boy and a little girl I have three

You have three kids You actually have four kids When this came up I have two I have a little boy and a little girl How high is this number getting? I have a little boy and a little girl And I noticed that

When I take my little boy To like a gymnastics Or swimming Yeah All the moms Will go in the locker room Yeah And they'll change the

Naked boys Yeah And nobody cares Right However when my daughter Was doing gymnastics All the moms will go in the locker room. Yeah. And they'll change the naked boys, you know, whatever. And nobody cares. Right. However, when my daughter was doing gymnastics, the dads were not to go in the locker room. Yeah, you're out. Interesting. And I'm fine with that.

And I feel like I understand it. However. What is the age range of these? What? What is the age range of these kids? Five, six, seven. However, this seems to me to be an extremely counter to the lessons that we're being taught about gender and equality and all that stuff. Maybe. I'm wondering what you think about that.

Maybe. I mean, as the mother of a young boy, I can tell you that, I mean, you're right. That is true. Like, there's a very clean... It would trouble you to see a dad in there with your naked daughter, right? I mean, it wouldn't happen. Like, there's no way he would get, like... So men and women are not the same in your mind?

Yeah, well, because men are predators a lot of the time. Yeah, I don't trust these dads. I'm okay with that. Women have to be afraid of their... I mean, I have to be afraid about my body walking around New York all the time. Right. I mean, that's a little bit of a loaded question, though. It's a real life situation.

You're 100% right. Loaded implies that I loaded it. It's real. You didn't. Is it related to trans bathrooms? Because I feel like that's such a nonsense. I just think that that's a nonsense. That has nothing to do with trans bathrooms. I'm not against trans. That's not trans bathrooms.

That's not one of my issues. Although, I will say that I'm not, that's not, trans bathrooms is not one of my issues. No, no, this has nothing to do with trans. Although I will say that the Packer article in The Atlantic was interesting on that. Go ahead. This has nothing to do with trans anything. No, not in my mind. Yeah, no. No, no, no.

This has to do with. Creepy dicks. Just who's allowed in locker rooms? No, I'll tell you what it has to do with. It has to do with my feeling that at core, even the most feminist of us don't actually believe that men and women are the same. And from that, we kind of pick and choose when we're going to insist that they are and when we're going to insist that they're not. Wait, we just want equal political, economic, and social opportunities, buddy. It's not equal if you can go into the locker room with your kids and a man can't.

So you're equality denied based on that, Dan? No, what I'm saying is that... I mean, so we would just like opportunities in the workplace. We would like to be able to make choice about our bodies. And this is what you're focusing on? I mean, it's kind of annoying, you know? I just want everyone to have equal footing in power, in structure of society. I mean, yeah, we need to think about safety of our daughters

when a lot of men can be predators, but that's part of why we need feminists. Let's talk about the trans issue actually in relation to this, but not the trans bathrooms, which I think is a silly issue. Right, because if you commit a crime in a bathroom, you commit a crime in a bathroom, and we don't even have to worry about gender. Well, actually, the which I think is a silly issue. Right, because if you commit a crime in a bathroom, you commit a crime in a bathroom, and we don't even have to worry about gender. Well, actually, the reason I think it's silly is because trans women have always been using the men's room.

Always. Nothing's going to change by making it... I mean, that's where the lawmakers are morons, though, right? Like, trans men have been using men's bathrooms for ages, and trans women use women's bathrooms and those are the bathrooms that they should use. But in the New York City schools, in the Atlantic, it came out last month in this article by Packer

that when they made the unisex bathrooms, the kids wouldn't even go to the bathroom. They were holding it until they got home. It was traumatic for them because suddenly they're being called out. The girls didn't want their bathroom. Well, they're being called out in a way that I think, and rightly so, like why do you have to bring attention to it?

But here's the trans issue. This is one I've never been able to, I've brought this up before and I really, I always get stumped on this. We're told, Perrielle tells us that gender is a social construct. Perrielle does tell us that. She always says that. It's not just Perrielle. It's a lot of, that's the reality. Meaning that, well, what I think it means, you correct if I'm wrong,

is that what we see as typically feminine behavior or masculine behavior, the things that we attribute to the way a man acts and the way a woman acts, is a result of our environment, the way we've raised them to be. Now, this is where it gets tricky for me. Yet, when we see a five-year-old girl behaving like a boy, we say she was born trans. Why is the gender display of the five-year-old boy all of a sudden not a social construct?

And if the five-year-old's gender is not a social construct, then when they grow up to be 25 years old, then it never was a social construct. And if the five-year-old's gender is not a social construct, then when they grow up to be 25 years old, then it never was a social construct. We shouldn't be enforcing any of it. We should remove... Have I proven that gender is not a social construct? No. We need to remove the binary. If you look at, there's even

research in schools will have boys do this in our class, girls do this in our class. The way that we societally are treating boys and girls is radically different. So, you know, what it should be is appreciate all children, treat all children in the same way. Of course. So that they're not warped to play with dolls or trucks or whatever the stock crap that is in the blue and pink column. But to be clear, that's not what I was talking about. What I'm saying is that when we see a

five-year-old or a six-year-old, we would see these in the news, displaying the cliche behaviors of the opposite sex that they were born, of their genetics. We assume that this is not something that was socialized in them. We assume that this, or we

I mean, enlightened people say, this is the way they were born. They're born this way. Well, we're all expressing gender, right? So gender is something we all also individually put on. So what I'm saying is that if we say that a gender of a five-year-old or a six-year-old is something they're born with,

then that to me means that when they get to be 25 years old, it was never a social construct. So gender is something that you're expressing. It's constant. It's dynamic. It's always changing. And that's true even for people who are cis.

So the thing is that if a child is born, they should be able to dynamically, constantly, openly express whatever gender is connected to their higher self. So I'm performing gender, right? I did my hair before I got here. I put on mascara. I put on lipstick. You're a victim of the patriarch. I did all that too. No, but I'm performing. Totally. I'm a victim of the patriarch. That's performing gender, right? I did my hair before I got here. I put on mascara. I put on lipstick. I'm performing... You're a victim of the patriarch. I did all that, too. No, but I'm performing...

Totally. I'm a victim of the patriarch. That's performing gender in that, right? So are you guys, though. No, I'm not calling myself a victim. I'm telling you, we're all performing gender in some way, and it's in conversation. You think I really was macho? I made her laugh. I do think that...

I think you're performing a lot of things, too, Dan. I just think it's all in conversation. It's okay. I like being called Dan. What is it? He's Gnome. Gnome, N-O-A-M. Oh, it's Gnome.

Gnome? It's not Dan Dormant? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I really did think your name was Dan. That's okay. I'm already giving you a nickname, Double D. Oh, Dan is the other one.

2D. I mean, I do think that we're victims of the patriarchy. I would never look like this if that weren't a thing. Why is that a victim? Because if women don't wear makeup, people ask us if we're sick. Like, it's the standard. It's the expectation. Okay, fair enough, fair enough. But I mean, I didn't mean that.

I actually woke up like this. Like, it's the standard. It's the expectation. Okay, fair enough, fair enough. But I mean, I didn't mean that. I actually woke up like this. I meant that. I do. I think that the, there's a whole list of feminine qualities, which are probably born, are encoded in the feminine DNA. And that's why when it gets, when somebody's trans. Wait, putting on mascara is not embedded in my DNA.

No, it's in my DNA. Can I just say something? You'll embrace what, well, go ahead, go ahead. Okay, so there is a child who goes to school with my son and that child

expresses their gender as female. I mean, you know. Yeah. Now, that might... But physically, they're male. Born or...

XY. No way! There he is. Amazing! Just in time. You can have mine. No, he's good. He can sit there. I can't believe you made it.

Well, we'll take you late. So go ahead. Tell your story. So very quickly, because I want to bring Dan in. But that might change. Like, yes, he was born a boy. I think that the parents are trying to navigate it. And they're letting the child express their gender, how the child is comfortable, but that's something that could be a phase,

or the child could be trans, but I think that... I was really only trying to make one point. I agree with you. My one point was that the same people who say that gender is a social construct will at the same time when they see it in a very young child will say that it's in the hardware, that it's not a social construct.

And that to me is a blatant irreconcilable contradiction of that theory. You're mixing up the social construct of gender and the individual expression of it and I think,

I have some readings, I will promise you I will email you, but it really, it's possible for gender to be a social construct and something that needs to be naturally

expressed and can be perceived to be something different than what was assigned at birth and can be ever-changing and dynamic. Just how acrimonious

was the discussion between Lauren and Noam? It was pretty acrimonious was the discussion between Lauren and Gnome? It was pretty acrimonious, Dan. Are you Dan? That's me, yeah. How did you know that? Well, I predicted it. Because knowing Lauren,

not personally, but just via Twitter and via television, as I do, and knowing Gnome... I told her something about putting on her thigh-high boots or something.

What did Tucker Carlson say? That's right. Stick to the thigh-high boots. Yeah, so I'm used to men not being very nice to me. So I get defensive pretty quickly. Well, I'm sure Noam was nice. You don't have to be defensive.

Noam would be... I think it would be not nice for Noam not to say how he feels. I wasn't here for the discussion. But not nice would be Noam pulling punches. Sure. So wait, you read the book? Can you ask me a question about my actual book? Because I'd love to answer one.

Oh, I haven't read the book. Oh, wow. What the fuck is this podcast? Periel has though. I researched you a lot. I've written two books and I have done a shit fucking ton of interviews and I don't think anybody that has interviewed me has ever read

either one of my books. This is the first time somebody hasn't read the book. They're probably pretending. Periel, you've read the book? I've read large parts of the book, yeah. Have we not discussed the book yet? Well, yeah, we are. But I mean, I think it's also...

No, have we not done it yet? Because I'm assuming we're almost over. But I mean, I think it's also fair to assume that people listening have not read, not just your book, but like we have people on all the time who've written like 10 books. Noam just finished Crime and Punishment. All right, but this was an interview about the book. Come on. No, it wasn't.

It was an interview with you. Oh, all right. But that's fine to me about the book. No, and like, I... That's what I thought. Maybe that's why I was confused. I thought I was coming here to talk about it. I have to say, quite honestly, if this happens again,

I think that this is with all respect and friendliness that if somebody reads, you know, the blurbs or whatever it is about all respect and friendliness that if somebody reads the blurbs or whatever it is about the book and knows what your book is about, it's totally fine for them to ask you the questions and you inform them in real time what it says in the book and in the public. I don't think my questions would be that much

different if I had actually read the book than by reading about the book. I also have a bone to pick with your publicist, frankly. Why? Well, because you came here under the guise of one thing or that they thought, and nobody was like, oh, I have to send you this book and, you know, whatever.

Dan was taken with you at, I guess, was it the Tucker Carlson interview? I saw the Tucker Carlson interview, and I don't know when I suggested to Perrielle to book her, but I know she's a somewhat rising star in feminist circles. A star, not a rising star. A star. And I was very excited. One can always rise higher, no matter where one is.

Where have you been? Where was I been? I was doing a show for people, office managers of healthcare- related Office managers in Jersey How was it? It was not easy But I pulled it off I'm sure you were very funny It's never freaking easy It's never easy these private shows

Yeah I hear that a lot And they're all They're medical people So the moment I did my bit about going blind And learning braille They tightened up because as medical people I So the moment I did my bit about going blind and learning Braille, they tightened up because as medical people, I guess it's not funny to them. I don't know. I thought you were going to say the opposite.

We're almost done. You had talked about that you believe that journalism. Okay, two things. So you had this, and I don't want to force you to talk about it. And to be honest, I'm very skeptical of like disgruntled complainers, whatever it is in this whole thing that you had with this NYU thing. So anybody can Google

it. But what did fascinate me about it is that you answered that you didn't think you were getting paid enough for that job. Oh, yeah. And I'm tempted to ask you what you were getting paid. $5,000 for two, three-hour sessions all summer. So designing the course, two, three-hour sessions all summer. So, designing the course, two, three-hour sessions

a week, and the average kid pays I think like $7,000 for the class. So, I don't know. The idea that it's like I was charging them somehow. Also, I showed up. I taught for the first time. I think a lot

of kids are addicted to a rubric and grades. And it's very possible I'm not a good college professor. And what frustrated me about that piece is like one or two students didn't like my teaching style. I'm like, look, more than one or two people don't like me. I'm very brash. I'm very polarizing. It's like that's not. When do you get a piece written about poor course evaluations?

Like, some of the best professors of all time have some shitty course evaluations. Yeah, yeah. That's why I wasn't, I didn't want to call you to chat. No, I mean, I was just frustrated. I guess I would just say, since you did call it out, if anybody reads it, I would hope that you'd also give me a shot and read my book, you know, because it feels like that journalist was acting pretty maliciously in that piece. It's pretty mean girl, toxic nonsense.

And it feels really awful to have something that I tried for the first time be used to discount the thing I spent three years working on. And I've just been treated like crap over and over again. And I feel like I'm just trying to build public power. I'm out here trying to do a good thing. I'm also constantly getting... You are doing a good thing. I'm also like, it's hard because I'm getting death trying to do a good thing. I'm also constantly getting... You are doing a good thing. I'm also like, it's just, it's hard because I'm

getting death and rape threats pretty regularly. Like, my safety is constantly at stake. My mental health is like something I have to tend to fucking constantly and then to have my colleagues attacking me for my flaws too. I mean, I'm just, I just kind of wish if people didn't like me or

didn't like my work that they would just kind of fuck off and go tell someone who they do like that they're doing it right. And I'm just really, I feel like I eat a lot of garbage. And I'm really trying. And I'm getting tired. And it's frustrating. I can see that you're frustrated. So, can I tell you why I came up with it?

And this is just, so this is, it struck a chord with me because as a boss, I've had this many times when somebody got frustrated with like my criticism of the work or whatever when I was dissatisfied the answer would be I don't fucking get paid enough to do this job anyway and I always say

well wait but you know I put an ad and this was the job and this is what it paid I didn't force anybody to come I used to do it with musicians all the time like you know

you wanted the gig at this price and it's not fair. I think I thought I was going to have more support from NYU is the thing too. I think it was benefit for me to teach the course because I had to articulate all of my ethics in my journalism and all of the reason why I love

my art. I got to a whole new level rhetorically in terms of my own journalistic code of ethics. It was awesome to be able to connect with young minds, even if a couple of them thought I was a brat. Journalistic code of ethics. You think journalism should be activism?

Yes. Including Fox News? No. Fox News is not journalism. It's activism. It's garbage. That's actually great. I think that journalism should necessarily be activist, but activism in and of itself is a separate thing from journalism. So when I'm using my journalism as activism, I'm telling stories that are true.

I'm using an objectivity of method, of verification, and I'm doing it so as to empower people with information. So my goal is to break things down in terms people can understand. And I also am a journalist, so there's a lot of different types of journalists. And there's hard-hitting reporters, there's access journalists, there's investigative reporters.

I feel like my biggest skill is as a sensemaker. So I kind of took off when I wrote that gaslighting piece, not because I invented gaslighting, but because I broke it into terms that people could understand where they said, oh, I can really mess with this. I know what this means. He is making me feel crazy. Then they can talk about it with

their friends, and that allows us to build the foundation from which to resist. Lauren wrote a comment in Teen Vogue about Trump is gaslighting America. So my goal is to empower people with information and to make them feel the confidence to have the political agency that I think we all deserve,

have a right and a duty to in the political conversation. I have nothing to say except that I didn't eat all day because I was so anxious about the gig that I really could use some food. Are you going to get chicken? That's an interesting point.

I can't believe you said that. That was my privilege if I ever heard any of it. My whole day is ruined when I can't believe you still get anxious about gigs. My whole day is ruined when I have a gig, when I have a corporate gig. Really? Why? You still get nervous? Of course I still get. In fact, I'm more nervous than I've ever gotten before. But you're so good and you have so much

experience. Ten years ago I wasn't that nervous because I felt like, I'm going to be a star anyway in a couple years. This is all going to be behind me anyway. Now I know that this is it. This is all going to be behind me anyway. Now I know that this is it. This is how I make my living, and if I fuck it up, the consequences are such. You do speaking engagements, right? Maybe Dan

can open for you somewhere. I don't know, but I was 90% women at this gig. You're so lovable. And I was a little bit hesitant because you just never know. You just never know how they're going to perceive me as a cisgendered white sort of white man. Sort of creepy white man.

You know. Wait. So who's not mad? I find you very threatening, Dan. You know, but you'd be surprised what some might find to be offensive. But I completed well. We all did. I slept with her. She's a national voice. But I think we did well. We all did well. I'm sure we slept with her.

She's a national voice. I want to say one thing. I just want to say that I think what you're doing is amazing. You're trying to lure her now, not me. Yeah. Well, I think you're amazing, too. But I think that when you're a young woman, and I'm a good deal older than you,

but I started out when I was your age, and you put yourself out there, and you have strong opinions. Unfortunately, a lot of the shit that you've described, it's like it comes with a fucking territory and it sucks, but it's part of it. And you can't take it personally, which is hard, I think. Yeah, it's hard to not take a, you know, like a death or rape there personally. But like, I do hear you. I hear you on the whole.

People are fucking crazy. People are crazy and you have social media and you're so out there and I'm not excusing that behavior. I think it's unprecedented in human history, the kind of torture that people are being subjected to from online harassment.

Because that didn't exist before though. I've been online harassed too, so you probably think I deserved it. No, no. What happened? I don't want before, though. I've been online harassed, too, so you probably think I deserved it. No, no. What happened? I don't want to tell you. I got online harassed because Louis C.K. performed here. But I had actual death threats.

What did he do here? Was he saying mean things about the park when he came here? No, he didn't do that. Well, the truth is the death threats were not confined to you. In fact,

we're... We're talking about my children. One threat was firebombing the comedy cellar, which is more of a threat to us because we're here more often than you are. But, uh...

Anyway, you know, I would say... No one stops by, but... Because I had a real fight with an NYU professor who came on a couple weeks ago. Columbia. Columbia. And you're NYU.

And I do think that quite often people assume that the person, on both sides of the fence, people assume that the person that they disagree with is incapable of listening to them or engaging them with an open mind and constructively. And that is sometimes the case. But it's not always the case. And that's why we have independent voters and they swing the elections. There are the whole, there's millions of people out there like me who, I mean, I believe in what I believe, but I'm very curious to hear the other side of arguments. And sometimes I'm like, you know, I hadn't thought of that.

That's an interesting point. And I would say that where the Columbia professor I thought failed and it started out that way with you, but I think we ended nicely. I think we ended nicely too. Is that if you want to convince me, you've got to

indulge me a little bit. You've got to let me even if I do rub you the wrong way a little bit. The goal is to like, I want to reach him, you know? So let it go a little bit. You've got to let me even if I do rub you the wrong way a little bit. The goal is to like, I want to reach him, you know? So let it go a little bit. And if after a half an hour you know he's a fucking asshole, then yeah. But I think to

withhold judgment on other people, especially because there's so many minefields now that people on the left really more than the right have set up in terms of, you can't say this word, you can't say that word. I agree with that. Like your dad, if you habitually say these pronouns that you've been saying for

60 or 70 years, now you're insensitive. No, I think we have to let people have time to evolve. And I think that we've all been hardwired with the script of the white supremacist capitalist patriarchy. We're all going to do things that are specifically not woke because that's the motions that We're all going to do things that are specifically not woke because that's the motions that we're all going through.

I love that wiring. Yeah, well, I know. You've got to give it up now, though, Noam. You've got to give it up. I wouldn't part with it for you. But so I think that every time you try to teach something new, someone something new, they have to unlearn an old thing. And I think that it's hard.

It's hard to have patience because I want to get to the better world very quickly. But I hear you. You know what it reminds me of? I had this thought. You may not get there. Paraphrase King. You may not get there with them. He has a better world, I'm saying.

You may not get there with them. Dan. During the Confederate statue stuff that was going on a few years ago, and the Confederate fly stuff, I remember thinking that, and it's going on a few years ago i met and the confederate fly stuff i remember thinking that is exactly what we're talking about that i was not a big i was never defending the confederate anything that i knew so many people had grown up in the south and had always seen these these flags and these statues it was part of them and i and i knew quite liberal southerners who would say to me no including somebody black like you know the

confederate flag yes but it was also always part of our culture. And what happens if people would come in there and sell them, if you have that flag, you're a racist. If you, if you, if you want to still have that point, that means you're a racist. And the natural urge at that point is to say, fuck you. Hold on. Fuck you. I'm not a racist. Go fuck yourself. As opposed to saying, as opposed to saying, listen, you have to understand how that flag makes me feel. And then people say, oh, you know, okay, I hadn't really thought of that. Yeah, I'll

take it down. I don't want to be a prick, you know. As opposed to making them, what they did is they made it so that the act of taking it down was actually a concession. Yes, I'm a bad person. Yes, I'm a bad person. Yes, I'm a racist. And that was going to backfire.

And it continues to backfire. And it's kind of related to this. Like, you know, attacking somebody, even if you think it, is a short fire way that they're going to dig in. Yeah, I think you're right. But I think, I guess I would say, I would offer to you that the antidote maybe for both of us is to just move in real time with the people we're actually interacting with. So I think that we all kind of get caught up in like big cultural analogies and ideas about what conservatives want

and liberals want or what feminists want. And we have all these stigmas and we need to just be getting more to the level of one-on-one what's going on right now. And I guess the way I would showcase that is in the context of Me Too, there was this whole conversation of like, well, can we actually have men and women at a holiday party now? Can a man hug a woman? Blah, blah, blah. Like, what are the rules now? And it's like, I don't know, buddy, just you gotta expend some energy

deciding, figuring out whether or not you're making people comfortable. And previously that calculus is born by women. It's like, yes, there are new rules now in the light of Me Too. There are new rules now in the way the status quo is changing, led by the insurgency that I'm documenting and how to start a revolution. And I think we're on the precipice of heading towards totally fucking dismantling.

This is interesting. Can we end with this? This is a very interesting topic. So I'm actually someone who basically has always agreed with the fact that it's not that hard to not be a creep. Yeah, just don't take your dick out or do anything with it, right?

To be fair, no. People would be a creep without taking a dick. People are accused of harassment with far less than that. And with justification. However, I also at the same time believe

that some people are just born oblivious and below emotional intelligence and I know guys like this and they think she's going to dig me and I'm like dude you're a fucking idiot but this is all on one side and the other side is I think 75 or 80%

of people meet their husbands and wives at work and that is something we have, I don't know how we're going to reconcile that because you're not going to get men and women who work together to stop taking the risk of, you know, seeing if the other person is interested.

And I don't know how to finesse that, you know. You just constantly consent. It's tricky. Consent is sexy at work too, I don't know. to finesse that. You just constantly consent. It's tricky. Consent is sexy at work too. I don't know. It depends. It's trickier than people are giving it credit for. Although I think that a lot of times it's just an excuse.

A lot of times, dude, you knew you were being an ass. You knew you were being creepy. But there are situations where, no, I really thought she liked me. She went out to coffee with me and then I tried to kiss her and all of a sudden I realized I'm a proud... And women can make unwanted advances too, for sure. I think we just all need

to be a little more verbal and interested in making people not uncomfortable. I think different people have different levels of emotional and social intelligence. This isn't any sort of solution. It's got to be difficult if you're on the spectrum of Asperger's to autism

to navigate any of that because you can barely navigate a hello and goodbye. This is not necessarily productive, what I'm saying. But I just think there's so many people and this is whether women or men

who are just, their ability to read social cues even if they're not on the spectrum is just so minimal or their ability to alter themselves cues, even if they're not on the spectrum, is just so minimal. Or their ability to alter themselves from a previous experience. There's no growth in it. And it's just like, all right, I guess that's not necessarily part of your general personality makeup. Can we also admit that if a girl tries to kiss a dude, it's not as horrifying, as unwanted if a man tries to kiss a woman?

No. Well, that's my locker room thing. It's never happened to me, so I can't. In real life, you're not going to upset me by trying to kiss me. Well, I can tell you that I tried to kiss somebody once and he was furious. Really? Yeah, because he knew I had a boyfriend.

Oh, well, that's a different... Well, that's different. That's clearly different. Why does he care if I have a boyfriend or not? Because he perceived... He was really offended. He really was. Yeah, because he thought you were honorable.

No, I'm not. Clearly. All right. I would like... I don't know if you'll ever come back, but I am fascinated by these gender issues and not because... I mean, I have a daughter.

It's such a cliche, but if people say this, they mean it. I have a daughter. She's such a cliche, but if people say this, they mean it. I have a daughter. She better have the ability and the right to do every fucking thing she wants to do in life. And she'll tell you I'm that type of parent. But, having said that, the difference in the way she behaves compared to the boys, with no steering on my part. Not on your part, but everything she sees around her. From the time she was born.

From the time that they are in... This is where science, I think, would have to say that you're wrong. I don't think so. There are differences between men and women. You don't even notice how genderized shit is. You go into a preschool classroom, it is. We tried so hard to get my daughter to play with the superhero stuff along with my

son. She's just not interested. I believe you. You know, whatever. Alright, that's another topic. What is interesting is that when I say that, I say that with a pure heart, meaning I don't have any stake in it.

If I saw evidence that it was the opposite way, it's like important to me that it be environment or I'm just telling you that's my observation and also borne out by what I've read. That seems to me to be the truth of the matter and we live in a time now when if you just

say in good faith, I think this is actually what it is, that will be called some sort of bigotry. And it couldn't be further from the truth. What do I care what the truth is? I love my daughter no matter what she is and why she is, you know. So anyway, it's just. Anything else? Follow us on at live from the table

on Instagram. Lauren, can you Do you want to come to the Comedy Star sometime? Lucy won't be here. Yeah, my book is How to Start a Revolution. I guess if you have

a young person in your life, I think I've made the issue of a political agency actually pretty entertaining and in terms that it's not usually depicted in and I'm trying to reach

basically high school students college students and me is there a Kindle edition there is an audible edition and yeah you can probably get on Kindle I will read your book

okay and then have me back yes let's do it I'm so serious and I will demonstrate that I've read it I'm a very thorough reader

I want to do this I want to have post-it notes okay shake on it where are you on social to follow you I will read the book I'm at Lauren thorough reader I want to do this I want to have Post-it notes Okay shake on it Shake on it I'm at Lauren Duca On Twitter

And at Duca Lauren On Instagram That's right How do you spell Duca? D-U-C-A Thank you for asking I'm at

Gibran Salim Oh sorry Come on How do you spell it? It takes so long G is in giant I, B is in Bob R-A-N is in Nancy

S is in Sarah A-L-, E, E, M as in Mary. Woo. Thank you all. And send an email, right? I can plug my Twitter. Yes, you can plug anything you want. At the end. Podcast at ComedyTeller.com.

Send us an email. Thank you, guys. Thank you very much. Good night, everybody. Good night.