The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Invisible Women

Episode Date: July 10, 2021

Dan Naturman and Periel Aschenbrand with Guest Zoe Strimpel, a columnist, historian of gender and intimacy in modern Britain, and author. 

This is Live from the Table, the official podcast of New York's world-famous comedy cellar, coming at you on SiriusXM 99. Raw dog. And on the Laugh Button Podcast Network. I almost got that perfect, and I fucked up at the end. The Laugh Button Podcast Network. Dan Aderman here. Noam Dorman is not here today.

He had a meeting of some sort that took priority. I don't know if it was an important meeting, but in any case, he felt it was more important than this. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. I am with Perry L. Ashenbrand, our producer. We were going to have Eric Newman, who is a comedy seller emcee. But he fucked up and thought it was next week. So it's just, it's a skeleton crew here. It's me and Perry.

We're waiting on, we actually have a guest coming on. Somebody that Noam had booked, but we're sure we'll have a good conversation with her. But anyway, we'll get to her in a bit. So Noam is not here, so that means that the, well, there's an old expression, when the cat's away, the mice will play. And if by play you mean not discuss Asians at Harvard,

then play we will periel how do you do and happy belated july 4th thank you i trust your celebration was a good one you are a great patriot um i hate fireworks so i try to go someplace to hide so that I don't have to hear fireworks. I didn't hear any fireworks. Were you in the city? Where the hell was I? Yeah, I was in the city. I went briefly to visit my parents in Connecticut

and have brunch with or lunch with them and then I came back. I was in the city that night but I guess where I'm at, I don't really hear fireworks. That's insane. Oh no, you know what? I was down here.

I actually had a spot here at the Comedy Cellar after going to Connecticut. I came here. I did a spot. Then I went home. But, yeah, I didn't hear any really fireworks. I feel like fireworks are, and it's too bad that Noam isn't here because I'm sure he would be irate to hear me say this, but I feel like fireworks are like a luxury for people who aren't actually ever being bombed. You get PTSD from that sound.

Well, I've heard that said, that veterans don't like it. I've heard that point made. I guess there's validity to it. I don't know if we want to get too sidetracked on fireworks. We have other things to get to. We do. We don't have a lot fireworks. We have other things to get to. We do. We have a lot of...

We don't have a lot, but we have certain things to get to. Why don't we start with... Dan's book, it says on your little pad. Dan's book. What kind of pad is that? It is a maxi pad. Is it a little mermaid pad? It is a caliber...

I usually use a very... It's a basic line pad. Anyway, those who are regular listeners know that I've been working on a book since prior to the pandemic. And the book is more or less finished. I mean, is a book ever finished? You know, you can always do a little more editing and a little more... Now they get finished. No, but you can always...

Until it's actually on the shelf or in the store or on Amazon, theoretically, one can always sand it a little bit, varnish it a little bit. All right. Another little coat of paint or whatever. So what's going on with the book, you ask? I have decided to go the self-publishing route, although Perriel had told me I should not and I should hold out for a publisher. But I'm not doing that. Okay. What a publisher, but I'm not doing it.

Okay. What made you decide? I don't have time to wait for a publisher that may or may not come within a year or two. I don't have a year or two. How much time do you have? I have a few more days. I just don't have the patience for it.

Okay. So I'm self-publishing And I, under the imprint name Lucio Books That's me And Lucio is French for firefly I thought it sounded good How do you say firefly? Lucio

But say it with an act, like the right act I don't have a good accent You do Lucio Lucio I guess Lucio, come on Well, but that's how it's going to be pronounced By the average person that reads it Okay You do. Luciole. Luciole. I guess. Luciole. Come on.

Well, but that's how it's going to be pronounced by the average person that reads it. Okay. Just like, you know, just like, just like what? I'm trying to think of an analogy. You didn't write my analogy before. Just like baguette. We pronounce it baguette. We know it baguette, you know. So you made this executive decision.

Yeah, I made it about a month ago, but I didn't want to tell you because you were telling me I shouldn't do it. Okay. So right now it's been formatted and now I edited it because when you format it to go up on Amazon, it fucks it up. So I had to go through it and edit and I found a bunch of shit that needed to be changed. And it's almost ready. That's exciting. And I don't know when exactly I'll put it up but maybe within a week i i have a cover design that i paid some dude to do and um yeah so mazel tov that's very

exciting you know it's whatever it is i don't know is it exciting it is exciting it's a huge accomplishment you you had told me in very strong terms not to go to self-publishing well i mean i only told you that based on um other conversations that we had i don't have anything inherently against self-publishing i mean for the love of god 50 shades of gray was self-published for the love of god man um i mean i'm certainly not going to try to talk you out of it now no you're going to embrace it and celebrate it for what it is. You know, and I mean, it's disappointing that I wasn't able to land within the... You barely even tried.

I tried somewhat. I mean, barely even tried. I tried enough to see the writing on the wall. I don't know that this is the kind of book because it's not a thriller, because it's not, it doesn't fit into a genre that is hot or that is typically embraced by publishers. The novel? Within the novel, there are thrillers, there are romantic comedies, there are historical fiction, there is coming of age.

This is none of those things. It's, I mean... Well, you don't know because you didn't read it. Well, I read enough of it to have a sense of that it falls into a category that certainly many authors... I would qualify it as humorous literary fiction. Yeah, I mean... And that is not something I don't think publishers are necessarily going after vigorously, especially from somebody who's unknown.

Okay, first of all, you're not unknown. And second of all, you have no idea what publishers are going after. Because, I mean, what you said before was the honest thing, which is that you just don't have the patience. And I don't have the patience. In addition to everything aforementioned, I don't have the patience. You don't have the patience. No, and the way I see it is this.

If it sucks, then there's no point in going after a publisher because they're not going to be interested. And if it's really good, then people will see that it's good. And I want them to see that it's good if it is good sooner rather than later. I just don't have time to futz around. And we live in a world where people are getting famous from Instagram posts. Literally. Yeah. From Instagram posts.

Yeah, yeah. People are getting famous from YouTube videos and from podcasts. Yeah. We live in a do-it-yourself world, so I'm doing it myself. Well, I fully support that, but I think that... And I'll go on podcasts, and I have access to podcasts, and I think that other comics will get behind it. If for no other reason than sympathy. I mean, they figure this crisis guy is still doing it.

Oh, fuck it. We'll retweet his fucking book. I think they will. Well, it's great. Jim Gaffigan gave me a blurb. I barely even know the guy. Wow. That's great.

You know, and the fact that he gave me a blurb. I barely even know the guy. Wow. That's great. You know, and the fact that he gave me a blurb leads me to think, leads me to believe that people will get by. I think people will, because I'm around, I've been around for so long. I'm just going to play devil's advocate here because it's more interesting than that.

So with that blurb, did you make any attempt to approach? I included the blurb in one of my, yeah, in a couple of query letters, but it didn't help. Okay. Yeah, it's a... But it does lead me to believe that I think my guess is that comics will, just like, you know, whenever there's a GoFundMe for a comic, all of a sudden everybody gets behind them. Listen, the book, what I read, it's great. That's not the question.

Well, if it truly is, then people will see it. And I want them to see it sooner rather than later. And trying to get a publisher could take a year, it could take two years, it could never happen. Who's got that kind of time? People are making things happen on their own nowadays. I applaud that. I think that we should have a book party. Well, we about that i'm not sure i mean yeah well we'll certainly

have a have a toast no we have a book release party and you should try to do some readings i'll do all those things i also what i also want to do is um i want to do readings and just put it up on instagram like me reading like me reading a minute worth. Totally, you should. TikTok? I mean, I don't have a TikTok account, but I guess I could do that. I think they're free to. I need somebody to read the book and pick out what they think are the best passages

for me to do readings. I'm not going to ask you to do that because you're a busy woman, but maybe Stephanie Spindle will do it. She's already volunteered, actually. That's very very nice i'll throw her a little bit of money anyway so um we'll discuss it more when the book is out and it should be soon is there anything can you tell everybody what the title is just so that they can keep the title is the title is iris spiro before covet there's something um it's sort of like Philip Roth meets Jonathan Ames. That's how I would categorize it.

Sure. That's not fucking bad. That is how you should categorize it. Except that most people haven't heard of either of those people. But I mean, Philip Roth, people have heard of if they're old Jews. And Jonathan Ames is he's Jonathan Ames is a is a sort of a writer's writer. Is that true? I think so.

I don't think the average person has ever heard of him. Then again, nobody's heard of any author. But Jonathan Ames also had his... Oh, he did some TV shit. Yeah, and one of his books, The Extra Man, was turned into a film. Oh, right, with Kevin Kline. And he had that show with Zach Galifianakis. Yeah, you're right.

Okay, I stand corrected. But his books are, I mean, phenomenal. Hi, Jonathan, if you're listening. If this makes its way back to you. Yeah, I met him years ago at a show.

He did some, like, sort of stand-up. But anyway, I started writing it before COVID, and I didn't know what to call it. And COVID came along, and I said to myself, well, I got to somehow, I can't ignore COVID because the book takes place in the present.

And then Noreet Kapil said, well, why don't you just end it at COVID? And she's a friend of mine, Noreet Kapil. Anyway, so I ended it at COVID. And it's a book about, the novel involves the main character writes a memoir. And he doesn't know what to call his memoir. It's great. And so he calls his memoir, Iris Spiro Before COVID. When COVID comes along. And analogously, in real life, I called it because COVID came along.

So anyway. It's great. All right. Well, anyway, what else we got to talk about? Our guest is here, but I have a lot to say about the book. I can send you an updated copy. I will. Because the copy you have

is, it's amazing how many typos. It's like you can't get it. You better have somebody seriously. I had somebody. Did you let her in? Thank you. I've read it seven times. I had somebody read it. I put it through software. You had a professional copy editor? Yes, and I put it through. Yes, I did, and I put it through

Grammarly twice. And I read it seven times, and if I had to read it again, I'm going to fucking shoot myself. Well, I had to read my second book like 45 times, and I mean, I feel your pain. But as long as you had a professional copy editor read it, I think that that's... I'm pretty sure it's typo-free at last.

Okay. Thank God Almighty we're typo-free at last. We have with us... Hello. Hi, Zoe. Hi. We have with us a very, very special guest that we have. Zoe...

Zoe... Strimple. Strimple. Is that right? very special guest that we have, Zoe... Strimple. Strimple. Is that right? You got it. You got it. I was on tenterhooks there,

but you got it right. Perfect. She is a columnist for The Telegraph, historian of gender and intimacy in modern Britain, and author of three books about these very matters. The latest one called seeking love in modern Britain she was a history today book which was a history day today book of the year and also she co-hosts a podcast called hyped which deconstructs the buzz around recent hit

films TV books Etc welcome Zoe to our podcast and you're coming to us all the way from Britain, that sceptered isle, that royal throne of kings, that earth, that realm. What play is that? It's a big night for us here and I don't know if you know why. Guy Fawkes Day again? Well, the England

football team, yeah, beat Denmark. So, they're into their first final intern like but is denmark any good denmark's really you'd be surprised those danes so but the point is england is always terrible and now suddenly it's good and the whole country is just it's like it's insane it's completely different so you you still live in england you're still you're you're you're staying i stuck with it i stuck with it i mean because it just seems to me why live in England? You're staying? I stuck with it. I stuck with it. I mean, because it just seems to me, why live in England when America exists? Oh my God.

That was exactly what I said to myself when I was 18. So that's so, but then somehow it just, yeah, no, I haven't answered that. I mean, now that question is a little easier to answer than it was in the year 2000. But yeah, I don't know, habit. I mean, I have great love for England and the history. And of course, England gave birth to the United States. But, you know, it's just the weather and the drizzle. Yeah. I mean, the weather. But I mean, are you so are you saying you're like gung ho America right now? Because that's a new that's a change of tune. Well, I think, well, I've always been gung ho America but it's just, I mean, how do you compare? We've got everything. We've got the desert.

We've got the mountains. You can go skiing. You can go hiking in the desert. You've got the, we've got big, big lakes and forests. Do you do those things? We've got. When was the last time you went into the forest? It's a fair question.

I mean, geographically, maybe landscape-wise, you win. No, England is gorgeous. The English countryside. I mean, what is the weather in New York that great? The weather in New York is, I'll grant you, is terrible.

The weather in New York is horrible. It's like 4,000 degrees outside right now. In the winter, it's below zero. Well, anyway, this is not the weather podcast, although that would be a good niche, and perhaps we should consider a weather podcast. I love the weather. I love talking about the weather.

Seriously, I don't know why it has a bad reputation. I mean, the weather is a fascinating topic. You're Jewish. If you're Jewish, you love talking about the weather. Well, the weather. Can we Jew it down a little bit? Apparently not. Three Jews? Wow.

We almost had four. So you wrote a recent article that captured Noam's attention. Noam is the guy, he's not here, by the way. We apologize for him because he had something else to do that took priority. But he, well, I don't know if it's okay i'm used to it but he very much wanted to talk to you about an article you wrote about flirting in the modern age in the age of me too flirting in the age of me too is basically what you wrote about i did well no i mean actually that was the kind of headline they gave it, which kind of undersold what I was trying to say,

actually. I think flirting is kind of a lame, I mean, it's, I wouldn't read an article with flirting in the headline, so I'm amazed that he did. But no, the point was just, I mean, it's an old thing, because I was a kind of, obviously, I'm not a fan of sexual harassment of any kind. I did have some critiques of Me Too right at the start, which I've kind of kept an eye on. And one of those critiques is that there's a bit of a binary in the narrative. So there's a sort of sense that when we do call out these misdemeanors or whatever, or these, you know, whether it's, you know, across the whole spectrum, we do kind of throw everything into that. So men become universally predatory. Women become de facto victims

without any active desire of their own. And it all becomes very treacherous and dangerous. And the whole, like, all the, you know, I'm again, I'm not celebrating the bad sides of the gray area, but I think a lot of what the frisson. Yeah. OK. Flirtation, all the kind of ambiguity lot of women, the problem isn't too much sexual attention. It's too little.

And those people have zero voice. Nobody's interested in the women who are like, wait, wait, I can't relate to these narratives. What about my kids? Well, fair enough. Then why don't we discuss that? Why don't we discuss this notion of women that don't get enough sexual attention? Because I've never really heard that complaint made. Exactly. You haven't heard it. Yeah. But there are a lot of, I mean, so I sort of started thinking about this when I was reading my teenage diaries recently, because I had to clear out my childhood bedroom in Boston, Massachusetts. And I grew up in Boston, Massachusetts. I grew up

in Manchester by the sea, Massachusetts. Yeah. That's why I have this accent. Right. That makes sense. Wait, then what are you doing in England? Well, I was born in England. My parents are English, although they stayed in the US. And I just I came back here on a whim when I was 16 for the end of high school. And that's I kind of ended up staying. I was wondering why you had an American accent. I didn't see that as an American accent. To me, it sounds like an English accent. No.

Maybe not an English accent. I mean, there's a lot of different types of English. I figure maybe you're from England or from Denver. Oh, no. Or maybe that's a Stokely on Trent accent. Stokely on Trent. No, I mean, I wish it was. Is there a place, by the way, a Stokely on Trent? Or did I make that up? I mean, there could be one called that. You might be thinking of Stoke on Trent. But I mean, this is England. called that. You might be thinking of Stoke-on-Trent, but I mean, this is England. There could easily be a Stoke-le-on-Trent that I haven't heard of

that's like in the other side of the country. With Chris Chester on time. Keep going. You've got it. That's exactly it. The point is, is you clean out your bedroom, you found these diaries. I found these diaries.

I was rereading them, and they really reminded me of how when I was rereading them and they really reminded me of how, when I was like developing, you know, an adolescent, becoming a young woman, whatever, my whole paradigm and that of my friends, because obviously I wrote about every single thing any friend ever said in detail was about boys, not liking us and us wanting them to,

and us having quite genuine forcible desire for them. That was always unrequited. Okay. So that's teenager. That's like teenage in the nineties. Fine. That's not, I'm not saying that's kind of all women. Wait, but slow down for a second. What were you like as a teenager? Were you like sort of precocious? Were you like, what was your what did you look like? I mean, what? Right. So so I did not fit in. I mean, I was a curly haired Jewish, not overly Jewish looking, but I was in a totally waspy town. OK, there were literally everyone was a was a kind of wasp. And we were the only Jews in the town town I think we probably looked a bit like it

and I wasn't skinny so that was enough to make me feel very different and frankly kind of be different and be outside of the what I like ended up calling like the romantic economy or whatever of the school so that was but then the same thing happened that was actually exacerbated when I was in when I went to England to the schools, it was all these like moves, like Lily Allen, all these like famous people were at that school and models. Lily Allen is Phil Collins's daughter. I mean, Lily Allen, you said?

Lily Allen is in Phil Collins. I'm thinking of Lily Collins. You're thinking of Lily Collins. Yeah. No, Lily Allen is a famous pop star. She was younger than me. The point is, again, even though I was a nice-looking girl, precocious, yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I was angsty.

Yeah, I mean, I'm just curious. What Marielle is trying to say, I think, if I can say it. Did you deserve to have no one like you? No, no, no, no. Quite the opposite. It's that you seem quite beautiful and highly intelligent. Some women compensate for their lack of fitting in by being extra sexual. So that guys say, well, you know, maybe I'm not the hottest chick in the class, but you'll get laid.

I mean, that was way beyond my, like, I wasn't trying. It's not really about me. It's just that it allowed me to think about how, hang on, there's this really, really strong narrative now about that. That's really a one way street, which is about young women being constantly subject to intrusive or dangerous or other kinds of predatory male attention. I think in the U.S., you know, there's the frat thing. And so obviously I escaped all that. But so it's just it's just I know for a fact that there are a lot of friends of mine who are, you know, there's nothing to do with how you look. I mean, you can be you can be attractive in a kind of conventional way. But I think there are a lot of women who are larger, older, disabled, give off a vibe that isn't 100% something. I don't know. But there are a lot of women who, you know, I think the whole area of female desire is really underplayed, actually, in all of this stuff. So there's a lot of women who just don't feel like, you know, they're walking around, they're horny, they don't have enough attention, they're single, they're not single, their husbands don't pay attention, whatever it is.

Every time I've talked about this on air or whatever, there's been quite a large response from women who say, yes, yes, like we aren't part, like this whole thing about everyone being asked out by their boss every five seconds or someone like groping them all the time. And, you know, they're not saying that's good at all and nor am i but there is another there is a kind of um so i guess what so that article that you're that i'm here for which is actually you weren't expecting this part of the explanation it was supposed to be about flirting and how it's just really it was just the idea that actually me too spawned a number of narratives, some of which have squeezed down the options. One of those options is a kind of flirtation.

Am I weeping about the fact that I can't be asked out in a kind of lewd way by some old French man? No, I'm not really. But I do think, yeah, I think for me, the core issue is always the fact that it's like women are the women are perpetually thirsted and hankered after and are there and also are the prey and the men are these kind of probing predator criminal. So just just to frame the issue, as best as I can interpret what you're saying is that there's just there's a lot of women who are not getting attention at all, and for them, that's a problem. Is that a accurate summary? Yeah.

Thank you for that very concise summary of my massive ramble. Yes. That was concise. So if that's true, then what can be done about it, if anything? I mean, is it a problem with a solution or is it just a problem that we can talk about but that there's no way to handle? This is the problem.

I've been an academic too long. I'm completely out of practice about thinking about solutions. I mean, I guess there's obviously no, like, you can't force these, you know, there's no kind of way you can force anyone to change their behavior on this. But I think that I do think there's, there's scope for some, some rejigging of how we think about female desire so that, you know, like think about dating, right. A man can woo a woman hard and she,

and I'm sorry, I'm talking about um sort of your kind of app you know very heteronormative cis stuff here it doesn't have to be cis actually sorry i'm getting into hot water that i'm gonna just get out of right now but you know the the men can woo women women cannot really woo men and i think that that kind of says it all which is that female the way everything is rigged up is still um that women are kind of they're kind of like recipients of how men see them whereas men seem to have more agency about how they shape kind of the desire relation with someone and i think until that changes but how does that help the the woman who not getting attention? The woman who's not getting attention, she can perhaps try to pursue a man,

but that's not likely to do much good if the man wasn't going to pursue her to begin with. Exactly. And this is something that I've come up against. It's this kind of really stubborn thing that unless that changes, the, who's not getting it, the invisible women, as I've called them for, aren't going to, they're going to be, it's still that powerless feeling.

Because the problem is actually you've just reminded me because these women, women who feel invisible may have a lot of charm, a lot of force of character, a lot of intelligence, but that doesn't, that's not going to get them what they want. Where the man who's, I don't know, the same thing, overweight, ugly, whatever, or I should say unconventional looking, he can use his, look at all these horrible politicians who kind of get, they can use other things. Women at this point still are deprived of the ability to use other things.

What do you attribute that? I mean, many would make the case, I would probably make the case, that this is just how men are wired. We're wired to prioritize beauty over pretty much anything else. I mean, are you saying that we need to change that or that it's changeable? Yeah, I mean, I don't really have any time for this like wiring thing. I mean, if we're wired, then we're wired to live in caves. Like we're wired to not have central heating.

Women are wired to not work and do, you know, just have babies all day. So I don't really, for me, the wiring thing doesn't work. I don't deny differences between the sexes. I do think there are some biological differences. I just don't think they manifest in concrete, like cognitive terms, like men have to only prioritize this or that. I think we've seen a lot of change already in what men want. And I think, you know, one of the most interesting examples of how change can happen is, you know, within a fairly short period of time, women went from being completely dependent, having no rights in marriage, not really being able to

get higher education and work to like, basically, being able to do all those things. And most men kind of accepted that and see women, you know, don't really question. I mean, it's a class thing. I mean, I don't know, but, but there's been a massive change that basically, if you'd said to a man in the 1850s, well, in 2021, you know, there's going to be a female vice president, or there's going to be, you know, female prime minister and all that they would have just, it would have just, no way, you know, so there is scope for change. What am I, you know, what is the... Can we backtrack for one second? Not necessarily. What are you... Well, I mean, I'm just trying to understand for change what am i you know what is the backtrack for one second and not necessarily

what do you well i mean i'm just trying to understand like how these quote-unquote invisible women what how how it correlates to the me too movement or what we're getting away from the me too movement we don't want to get bogged down in the me too movement but i can just i mean you're right to ask that because that was the kind of the connection with so the invisible women thing is the me too movement spawned a huge amount of people talking about all the ways in which men can't keep their hands off of them so a lot of those ways are really bad ways that men can't keep their hands off of them and should be you know punished or dealt with or you know that aren't but a lot of but there's also within that mix quite a few ones that to other women sound like oh you just get asked out a lot like you

get a lot of sexual attention um and it can come across as you know frank like i've sometimes sorry i keep saying what i've called but like you could say you know humble hot bragging of the type like it's a bit like I'm just I'm just so hot that I just get so much attention all the time um and so that's it's a small thing I mean the overarching thing of me too is you know is right sure is I would never say like you know that's all it's all bullshit or something um and obviously it's it's right to know, I don't want bad things happening to women or anyone. But I do think that, that it did, yeah, just the dynamics of the movement created this, this rush of discourse about male rapacity and women all being sex, seen as sex objects and yet a lot of women aren't seen as sex objects and over time i think just this is just this is not scientific research this is

based on things i've picked up on heard got feedback from you know a lot of women feel like this is not a narrative that's speaking to them so that's just the connection and it's just one of several of these weird dynamics to emerge from Me Too. So what, I mean, you said earlier, you're an academic that doesn't look towards solutions, but you're saying that we need to somehow rethink what it means to be sexy or what would you know what

I mean I'm kind of happy just talking about my armchair but you I mean you're pushing for a solution yeah yeah actually I would like a solution but do you but would you agree with the statement that it would be nice if men were attracted to women primarily for their personalities, their charm, and their intelligence. Yes, I think I would like that. No, it doesn't have to be just that, but I would like some equality of like, okay, I don't think I'm going to be able to bring this about, but it would be nice if just like men can exert the force of their personalities and charm to woo women. In the old days, you wanted to ask a woman on a date, you had to call her on the phone and have what's known as a conversation.

You know how scary that was? I call a girl up, I'd be shaking like a leaf. I'm all nervous. Then she answers, I start to stutter. I'm all timid. I'm like, maybe we could have lunch or something if you're not busy. It was terrible. But texting is easy.

I'm like yo baby girl what you doing with your fine toe you shake that ass on over here i will tear that up then she gets to my apartment i'm like girl you're looking fine tonight she's like i'm standing right here why are you still texting me? You ever notice people send you a text? People are all obsessed with spelling. They'll send you a text with a typo, and then they can't just let it slide.

They gotta send you another text a second later with the word spelled correctly. The other day, I'm at a restaurant. My friend texts me, yeah, I'll be there soon. I gotta park the cat. Then a second later, I get a text, aster a text asterisk car I don't mean to brag but I had actually already figured that out I didn't think he was walking down the street like yeah can I leave my cat here by any chance sometimes you send a text the wrong person right you ever do that that's that can range in severity from no big deal to your life is over. And speaking of typo, you send a text to the wrong person,

you can't cover that up by pretending it was a typo. That would never work. Like if you texted like, hey, my wife doesn't even know we're sleeping together. Asterisk, be home soon, honey. For me, the worst time for me that I ever texted the wrong person, I texted by mistake, come over, I'm horny to my cousin Sheila. I apologize. I was like, sorry, cousin Sheila, that was actually meant for somebody else. So sorry you came all the way over here. Look at our prime minister. He's very unattractive. Very, very, very unattractive. And yet he's got this hot young 30-something wife now.

A lot of women are into him. Can you imagine the equivalent, like, Angela Merkel cleaning up, right? No, sure. There's a very clear double standard there for, I mean, nobody's going to dare argue that. But, I mean, I think it seems to me. But there's also a double standard in the other direction, because a man that is gorgeous, but works at McDonald's might not hope to find a woman. Whereas a woman who's gorgeous, guys don't much care where she works. Or if she works at all. Or if she makes a living.

So in that sense, there's a double standard going the other direction. Right. But it's a power thing also right so i mean the conventional beauty standards have been created by a patriarchal structure well this is where if no more here he would he would he would holler at you well he's not here so you can you can holler at me i don't i'll argue back i don't holler i just I just wonder about how much beauty standards are dictated by a patriarchal society and how much they're dictated by nature. Well, I would say that if you look at the finances behind all of the makeup companies and the magazines and... Well, let's ask our guest, our guest sure what she thinks of that do you

think that female beauty standards are largely created by by culture and by by by men i love this this is this is a wide-ranging interrogation i'm i'm liking this i'm having to revisit my gender studies MPhil from like literally 10 years ago. I think there's probably a mixture of both things going on there. So yeah, I mean, I think probably a woman who was considered absolutely beautiful in the year 520 might be recognizable or an ancient Greek woman,

perhaps that was considered beautiful might be similar perhaps. But Greek woman, perhaps that was considered beautiful, might be similar, perhaps. But, you know, when I stroll through the National Gallery and I look at portraits of people from the early modern period in Holland or Germany, and I look at and they're supposed to be beautiful. And I think, wow, you just, you know, it's you look ill, you know, and fat. So I think there's absolutely no doubt that there's probably some sort of prize,

symmetries, fairness of skin, whatever. But I think 60% is cultural, maybe? 40% is culture? It's hard to say, but I will say that, you know, well, I don't want to get too graphic, but... Please do. Women shaving certain areas. I never thought about it in the 70s and the 80s when I used to look at dirty magazines, because that's all I could do back then.

Right. And women were unshaven in certain areas. Seemed fine to me. I had no objection to it. And now I see those same images and I'm like, oh, for God's sakes, woman. Take care of yourself down there. So the point is that culturally, I myself, my standards,

seem to have changed because I've gotten used to a certain change in terms of what's in fashion. Right. That's a social construct. That's what I'm saying. I'm making the point that one standards can change based on culture and what's in style. Now, and I'm sorry, by the way, pardon? I said that is obviously correct. Now, and I'm sorry, by the way, pardon?

I said that is obviously correct. I tried to say that in the most, you know, without being too graphic. I think the word is like, yeah, when you talk about fashion, that is a kind of delicate way of saying like porn has changed. That could be a good title for this episode. Now, what about what about underarm shaving? Is that innate or cultural? I mean, how long have women been doing that? And could we somehow get used to the other way? I want to.

I mean, well, there was a girl who was doing her PhD at the same time as me on body hair and grooming. So I should, you know, you should speak to her. I don't care. I should, you know, you should speak to her. I, oh, hair. I mean, I don't know. I mean, that feels like a very like specific, probably some people, it depends on what country you were in.

I think that's like, I mean, it's an interesting topic. It's not one that I know too much about. I think the hair, But how universal? I thought now, What's that? But now people, I thought now hair is back. It is. I don't believe it's back.

It is back. Where is it back? I mean, if you look through fashion magazines or models. I'm not seeing any hair. Where are you looking? I'm telling you. Vogue, Mademoiselle, Red Book, Jalouse. Yeah, Jalouse.

That's a good one. Vogue Italy. Any magazine. You're looking at Mademoiselle? Okay. That's interesting. Were I to be looking at Mademoiselle? I don't think I would see hairy underarms. Madonna's daughter, who models for Marc Jacobs

and is quite the little fashionista carving out a role for herself and Marc Jacobs doesn't shave her armpits. She has black full hair under her armpits. She's gorgeous by any standard of beauty. She's in her early 20s. And there's a whole crew of I mean, there's a whole I haven't. Well, I'm just but it's still your average guy wants to see shaven underarms. And my question, my rhetorical question, because I don't think it's one anybody can answer here, is could we get used to or embrace the other,

the non-shaven underarm? Whether or not... I don't know anything about Madonna's kid. Was that Lourdes? Yeah. Can you pull up a picture of her with her armpits? I have no doubt that what you're saying is true, that she's in magazines,

but that doesn't mean that guys like that. Zoe, you have any comments or questions regarding the topic? I was just thinking about how actually men now are being expected to remove their body hair so there's been i was just thinking about how you're

like oh can i ever get used to that body hair and i'm thinking women have put up with it forever except now not so much so men are getting their backs waxed men are shaving their armpits i mean i'm watching this uk you may have heard of it um love island i'm obsessed with it it's fascinating all the men are like they're all doing the women and the men you can see them they're doing like the same grooming the men are like moisturizing and shaving each other's chests it's it's like the same hairless ideal so now i think actually so yeah i think what's happened is let i think yeah lord is um suchone i don't know her last name is um she yeah obviously what her last name is leone leone there you go um she she's a she's like hot enough to pull it off. In general, yes, women are, it's a political statement to keep your hair.

I mean, not in France. That stereotype of French women with hair under their arms is like from the 70s. It hasn't been true in decades. Yeah, I don't think it's true. But I do. So I think my comment is just that what's interesting is that the standards where men are concerned are changing and becoming more the same.

They call that manscaping. Yeah, but manscaping now means like total hair removal to the same level as women remove their hair. I mean, not necessarily your man on the street, but but people who are like social, you know, trying to become reality stars or whatever. And obviously we follow where they go. So I think you can ask yourself, is there a world in which you're gonna embrace leg hair and armpit hair? Say in 10 years time, if you if in this my my sense is no however it's possible that it could happen just like i told you i got i've got to a point where i see seven naked 70s women with again you know you're i don't want to be too graphic but with with a forest down there and uh and and and

and i'm i'm i'm shocked and yet at the time i'm shocked. And yet at the time I, it was fine with me at the time when I used to go to my friend's house and we used to go upstairs and look through his father's magazines. You know, I didn't have a beef with it at that time, but, but now I do. So I do, I have changed in that direction. Now, could I change in the other direction where Harrier is better? I suppose so. I think you could. I will say humans are amazing. You could, too. I will say that for a woman, leg hair to me is more awful than underarm hair.

That's how I feel. Why? I just glad my legs aren't on display. What's that? What if she said she's glad my legs aren't on display? Oh, hilarious. play what's that what if she said super glad my legs aren't on display oh hilarious what if she's super hot sick body gorgeous and she doesn't shave her legs well it depends how much you love it if if it's a if it's a woman you'll you'll want to size that for sure well i don't know how i'd react because i haven't seen that but um I'm just saying that as a general matter, aesthetically speaking,

the underarm to me is less offensive than legs. What about bikini line? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I don't love that either, you know. Like just like if you went to the beach, again, sick body, super hot. She took off. I'm just telling you I don't like it. Her shorts.

No, but the question I had asked is could that change? again sick body super hot she took off i'm just telling you i don't like it no but um but the question i had asked is could that change and the answer is i don't know i mean i know it's changed with regard to less hair being better you know over over time but in any case um this is a fascinating line of thought it is right more what's that what do you have that was like that was a joke i was sort of never mind i think it's kind of sexy when girls have hair under their arms do you have any comments zoe about that sex no i'm i'm over it i'm not i'm not i think i've like said everything there is a stay on the hair i i don't find the hair thing that interesting i don't know why i think i just don't

like hey like i don't like thinking like yeah maybe i maybe i have that sort of yeah i don't know it just doesn't grab me as a, as a kind of, well, I think, but I think it's interesting because if we're going to say that we can change what's, what's attractive and you've talked about women that are invisible because they're, they're older or they're, they're larger, they're overweight, whatever, then if we need, if, if, if that's an issue that we need to think about how we can train ourselves perhaps to have a wider palette in terms of what we find attractive so i think more interesting than the hair thing is weight and i think like that's been really interesting like all these brands now having

serious not just like curvy models but really overweight models i think i saw one on the burberry shop in bond Street the other day. Like it is, it's like a real thing. And, you know, I think that's, that's interesting. I think that's, that's good. I think there's been a genuine change there where, where, you know, we have clearly moved away from the super skinny kind of Kate Moss thing. And there, that's the weird thing. I mean i mean on one hand you have the kind of people with the butt surgery or removing their ribs to get these these overly curvaceous appearance so

that's like a that's a curvaceousness that is like more restrictive but at the same time you know you're you're getting like you know that that hbo thing or is it hbo uh or is it hulu shrill you know um and you've got like you know things about i just think like body type is the last taboo here and i think it's um but you're right i mean we have we have broken that down right we have um recognized i think the bigger girls are getting are getting a lot of love these days. Well, they should. Good for them. They deserve it. I mean, there's nothing inherently better about being skinny.

Well, that's a big thing. I mean, growing up, I felt very oppressed. Like, I wasn't fat at all, but I still felt because I wasn't skinny. Right. You know, it's just I just wasn't skinny. And everyone else, it was just like that was a problem. Right. Because when we were growing up, we were bombarded with images of women who were super thin.

And that was the standard of beauty that we were taught was what we should aim for. Yeah, exactly. And I think that has changed. Well, and, you know, I mean, I wonder what, when we see images of bigger women, you know, how that has, if that's affected the male psyche. I mean, I like a bigger gal, but I don't know if it has anything to do with, and I also like a skinny gal, but I don't know if it has anything to do with... And I also like a skinny gal. But I don't know if that has anything to do with images that I've seen or if it's just, you know, me.

So I'm saying I'm wondering what influence this is having on the male psychology. It's having an influence on the female psychology because women are feeling less pressure to be skinny. But is it having an influence on the male psychology and saying, no, this is sexy as well? Well, it sounds like what you're saying is you don't care if she's big or little as long as she shaves her legs. Well, no, that's not what I'm saying. I mean, I guess that's what I'm saying is, is I don't mind a bigger gal. Yeah, I guess that's what I'm that's I guess if you if you put everything together, then you could come up with that. That's what I'm here for. Within within reason, obviously, 900 pounds, you know, would be would be a bit much.

And some people are into that, though. There's a whole category on porn. I mean, I don't want to be inelegant on this show, but. Well, Zoe is because we, maybe we are misjudging her, but we feel the need to be dignified in your presence. That's right. Because I'm representing the queen of England. Well, yes, you have that accent and you seem like a woman of a certain refinement, but thank you for joining us. It's fine. Use the word porn, you can, or pussy, or I'm okay with some of that. Well, I don't know if I'm okay with you using those words. I'm a little bit. I know.

It's like your mom has just used those words. That's the impression I'm getting. Although I'm sure you're quite a bit younger than I am, but I'm a child in terms of my, I'm 51, but the maturity of a teenager. I get that. That doesn't surprise me. Yes, I never truly grew up. And, you know, I live life like a child. I don't have any kids and I'm not married or anything like that.

So I live sort of an adolescent life. Sounds like the ideal New York existence. But we thank you for joining us. We're about at the end of our time. But if you're ever in New York, I'm sure Noam would love you to stop. This is not my club. It's his club. But I'm sure he'd be happy for you to stop by and talk with him or eat.

Our chicken platter. It was very good. Yeah, I'd love to. What's that? I said I'd love to and I probably will be in New York at some point. And also now I'm curious to meet you guys. Then you'll come back. You can come on the show in real life.

And let Perrielle know when you're in New York if you wish to stop by and eat and or see a comedy show and or have something to drink uh great wait and tell everybody where they can find you on the um internet best way to find was just to google me because i'm terrible at social media so let's just say zoe strimple.com for all the i don't i mean i am on twitter at real zoe strimple but i wouldn't waste your time on that um zoe strimple podcast hyped is good you should all listen to hyped it's it's good it is good zoe strimple is a young woman i just googled her i'm not going to give her age out because it's not my place, but it's quite, quite a bit younger than I am. So, again, the whole mother thing is, is, is. Well, I mean, I'm interested that Zoom.

I mean, I like that there was a sort of hesitation that I maybe was, was in my 50s, but that's OK. No, no, not at all. I said to you, you're probably quite a bit younger than me when I. Yeah, it's. Yeah, no, no, it's good. I don't know for sure. I don't know for sure, obviously. I mean, you could have us all fooled, but you do look quite young. But anyway, so zoestrimple.com, S-T-R-I-M-P-E-L.com. Thank you, Zoe. It's probably late there, so I guess you might be feeling.

Yeah, it's 104. Thank you so much. Thank you for staying up late and indulging our immaturness and hair talk. And we'll see you when you're in New York, hopefully. That's Zoe Strimple. It was a pleasure. See you. Thank you.

Thanks for having me. Thank you. Okay, that was Zoe Strimple. Not the conversation we expected, Perrielle, I guess. What was the conversation? Well, we expected more talk about flirting in the age of Me Too. Yeah. I wasn't really clear on the distinction or what does the Me Too movement have to do with these invisible women?

I don't get it entirely. Well, first of all, it was one article she wrote that, well, because Me Too, people talk, in the context of me too people talk about how women being harassed on the street they talk about women being groped asked out inappropriately at the work environment etc etc etc that's what and she's very much against those things but she also wants to make clear that a lot of women are being ignored that's her that's her that's her position that's her position i'm not i can't speak to that and i i wouldn't speak to that but that's her position. That's her position. I can't speak to that, and I wouldn't speak to that, but that's her position. I mean, I would venture to guess that there are plenty of women who are not quote-unquote conventionally attracted who are being harassed and sexually assaulted as well.

Well, very likely, very likely, but, you know, that's her position, and make of it what you will. I wasn't exactly clear on, I mean, you know. And also, what does A have to do with B? Or maybe nothing. I don't know that it has that much to do with it. That's where I got confused. She wrote an article on flirting that she didn't really want to talk about. She didn't really want to go in that direction. She wanted to go in the other direction.

So she she made that point that there are women that are invisible and no doubt there are women that are invisible. And if we can change the male psyche to appreciate women of different shapes, sizes and ages, that would certainly be a good thing. I'm not sure that's possible, but obviously that's that would be a good thing. I'm not sure that's possible, but obviously that would be a positive thing. I think that there are plenty of women who are not quote-unquote conventionally attracted and plenty of men who are attracted to those women. Well, perhaps so, but no doubt some women get more attention than others. Sure. And some women are more or less invisible, at least relatively speaking.

And if, again, if men can learn to appreciate women of differing shapes, sizes, colors, ages, etc., then it would probably be a better world. And it would be better for men because, you know, the fact that we all seem to like the same women is a little bit annoying. Because we can't all get those women. So if I was attracted to women that were older and larger, then it would be great for me. You know, I wouldn't have to compete with Mark Norman. But what was your point?

I don't know. Anyway, so do we want to, we have other things on the list. We have Cosby. We have Cosby. We have Cosby. Let's talk briefly about Bill Cosby. And that's sort of related because he's a guy that harassed women. I don't know if they were all conventionally attractive or not. I mean, listen, unattractive women get raped all fucking day long.

I understand that. Okay. And I don't know what the statistics, I did read an article that the victims of rape tend to be younger, more likely to be younger. I don't know if that statistics are. I did read an article that the victims of rape tend to be younger, more likely to be younger. I don't know if that's true. I have read that, which is a controversial thing to say, but those are statistics that I have read. Whether or not physical attractiveness makes any difference, I don't know.

That's also a very controversial topic. But in any case bill cosby we talked about it briefly last week he's out and now jen kirkman in particular on twitter who is a comic has said that she she fears that bill cosby will be welcomed at comedy clubs because comedy club owners and male comics don't give a shit. So let me see what she has said. She's a fairly prominent female comedian. She lives in Los Angeles.

I don't think I've ever met her. So I wrote back to her. I tweeted at her. Well, say what she said. Do you want to read it? Okay, I'll say what she said. Now, hold on a second here. Here we go now.

Just be patient, everybody. She said that he will be on state this is jen kirkman and tweet from uh june 30th of 2021 he will be on he will be on stage at a comedy club within one month no club will say no to him uh and then a picture of bill cosby this is in response to a new york post tweet that says bill cosby to be released from prison after court overturns convictions of this was last week also i think a lot of comedians are going to need to know who the comedy club owners are

who called cosby cosby has been according to this uh... i don't know what this is from but it is cosby has been talking to a number of promoters and comedy club owners and is just excited the way the world is welcoming him back, Andrew Wyatt told reporters on Thursday,

according to the Philadelphia Inquirer. So I tweeted to Jen Kirkman that the owner of the comedy club, the owner of the comedy cellar, Noam Dorman, has told me that he will not allow bill cosby to perform if it comes up and that i i also added that i think that club owners would be insane to do so would be terrible for their reputation and terrible for business she has of yet to respond to that well vonda carlo who we've had on the show, said the first two rows at every show will be all comics. You'd like to respond to that.

Okay. I don't know. First of all, I don't know that he's going to be back on. Was he on stage before he went to jail that often? I don't know. I mean, he's a very, he's 82 or 83, but he's an old 82 or 83. He's, I think, blind. He'll probably perk right back up now that he's not in 83, but he's an old 82 or 83. He's, I think, blind. He'll probably perk right back up now that he's not in jail anymore.

Maybe, but I don't know that he was performing all that much before. And I don't know whether comics will rush to see Bilk. I mean, look, as a spectacle to see Bilk, to be quite honest with you, if he was on stage, I'd kind of want to see what he has to say. I mean, after, you know, at least five minutes worth of it, just to see what he says, you'll probably not address it. And to see what the audience does. I'm editing that out.

You're editing out? Why would you edit that out? Just kidding. I mean, anybody would be curious. It's like a car accident. It's a horrible thing, but you want to see. Okay, but the reason not to put Bill Cosby on stage is not because it would be bad. I didn't say that was the reason.

No, no, no, I know. I'm just backtracking because you said it and I just wanted to backtrack and address it is not because it would be bad for business. The reason not to put Bill Cosby on stage is because he's a fucking rapist monster. That's enough. It doesn't matter.

But I'm saying to you that even if club owners were amoral and didn't care about that, I think Jen Kirkman is wrong that every club owner would be very, very afraid to put him on because of the backlash and because it would be absolutely horrific for their reputation. And I think the audience would, I think they would walk out, most of them. Now, that being said, I would be curious at least to see the audience walk out, you know,

or to see what their reaction would be. What if there was some poll that said everybody wanted to see him? They were curious in the same way that you were. Then would it be a good idea to do? If a poll said that on a strictly business level, you're saying more. I'm saying that on a moral level, you're correct. Okay, all right. But on a business level, I think it's also bad.

Now, you're making the point that what if, on a business level, it wouldn't be bad. Right. What if, on a business level, the audience wanted to see him and it wouldn't affect the reputation of the club? Then would club owners put him on? Many probably would. Right.

But I don't think what you're saying is that hypothetical is valid. I think that indeed it would be a bad move to put him on stage. And again, I don't think he's getting on stage. He's old and frail. And he wasn't doing, I don't think, that much comedy before he went to jail. And he certainly wasn't doing comedy at the Comedy Cellar or at clubs like this. I mean, but the audacity of this guy to get on social media and announce that he's going on a fucking comedy tour

is like so outrageous. I don't know if he's made that announcement. He was quoted as saying that. I don't know if he himself is, I don't know if he has any social media presence, but look, I don't know. You know, um. If he followed you on Instagram, would you block him? I don't think I'd block him, no. I don't think I would

block him. I don't think he's on Instagram. But, um, as I him? I don't think I'd block him, no. I don't think I would block him. I don't think he's on Instagram. But as I said, I don't believe that Jen Kirkman's prediction is true. That I don't believe he's going to be popping up at comedy clubs. I also, as far as Von DeCarlo's prediction, that when he performs the first two rows will be comics, I mean, I don't know.

I never watched him, you know. I mean, I never... Any celebrity that performs here at the Comedy Cellar, I don't know. I never watched them. You know, I mean, I never... Any celebrity that performs here at the Comedy Cellar, I run down because I'm interested in seeing the audience reaction. When a big celebrity comes on, when Jon Stewart was here a couple of years ago, I didn't hear what he had to say. I went down, I saw the audience's reaction.

I watched for two minutes, and I went back upstairs. What interests me is the audience reaction. Okay. That's it, yeah. That's what would interest me if Cosby upstairs. What interests me is the audience reaction. Okay. That's it, yeah. That's what would interest me if Cosby went on stage, would be the audience reaction. And also I'd be interested to know if he had the nerve to actually address the situation. But that's what is interesting to me.

Would other comics be interested in watching him? I don't know. So I can't speak to what Vaughn said. But again, I don't think he's going to be popping up at comedy clubs. He never popped up at comedy clubs before. The one thing that I can tell you is that it does give me an opportunity to bring my Cosby joke back. Okay.

That's silver lining. You mean you have a Cosby joke? I do have a Cosby joke. Sure. Then by all means, yeah. I mean, it is, you know, it does have that, why not, you know, why not make lemonade? That's a good title, too. Why not make lemonade? A title for what?

I don't know. Maybe your second novel. We'll see if there's a second novel. If this novel is well-received and at least breaks even, then there might be a second novel. Define well-received. Define, like, what will you be satisfied with? Like, how will you... That's a good question. That's a very good question. That's not a good question. That's not a good question. It's a great question. Thank you. How do you define success? How will you define success?

5,000 sales. Okay. Now, one second, though. What are you going to do in order to make that happen? Because that's not a small number. No, it's not a small number. By the way, Wayne Fetterman, who we've had on, has told me he's sold over 2,000 of his books. It's a very robust number for a self-published book. Listen, it's you.

And it's just starting. I mean, it might continue. Sure. So it's possible. Now, so what am I going to do? I'm going to go on podcasts. Whoever will have me, I'm going to tweet, obviously, and hope for retweets. And I'm going to do excerpts on YouTube and on Instagram.

Okay. Hoping for retweets is not a great strategy. That's just one of the... Are you going to go on a... You weren't listening. That was one of several... Are you going to take your books and sell them after the show? I will plug...

I'm not going to stand there with books. Why not? Because I'm not doing that. But I will say, I will say, I have a book and I might come up with a joke about the book so it sticks in their mind. And then if every time I do a show, one or two people go on Amazon and buy the book. What if you handed out little stickers with a QR code that people can scan? I would do that at the show that I was headlining, but I wouldn't do that at the Cellar because it's tacky and no one would like it. I'm not talking about the Cellar at all.

I'm just talking about, in general, a marketing strategy. You don't have to answer. I'm just putting it out there. Yeah, those are all things to be considered. But one thing at a time. T-shirts? Ira Spiro? I don't know about T-shirts.

I've never heard of a book being sold. I've never heard of a T-shirt for a book. Now, that doesn't mean it can't be done or it would be stupid. I've just never heard of it. Okay. I mean, you know, maybe it's a great idea. I've just never seen it. I've never seen, you know.

Baseball cap, Ira Spiro. I've never seen a T-shirt, you know, T-shirt, Lolita. That would be a T-shirt you wouldn't want to wear. That's a great T-shirt. You have to send a copy of the book to a bunch of editors at magazines so that they can review it. Well, they'd probably be hesitant to look at a self-published book. But they will kind of know. Why are you saying that?

Well, because they would be, but I can still try that. Fifty Shades of Grey. Well, that got attention after it kind of snowballed virally. You have to do all of these things. Anyway, okay. I am hungry now. And we are an hour and 20 minutes into our podcast. I think we held it down

pretty well. I think we held it down. Actually, we started late, so we're about an hour into our podcast. Yes. We held down reasonably well. So, next time, I guess, Noam will be here. Who do we have next week? It's on the schedule.

Okay, so we'll see you. Someone great. Maybe Eric Newman. Before we go, let me just look at who's coming up for next week so I can whet your appetite for the next show. W-H-E-T. Whet. Whet your appetite.

That is correct. Thank you. Hold on. I think Zoe was done with us. That's why I kind of said. I was getting the feeling she was done with us. I thought she liked us. I can't tell. I can't tell. But I got sort of a feeling like, she liked us, but it was enough.

Yeah. Next week we have David Buss. Who's David Buss? I mean, do we have to do this on the air? We don't have to. Okay, everybody, we'll see you next time. Thank you.

For questions, comments. Comments, questions, suggestions, constructive criticism, destructive criticism, podcast at ComedySeller.com. Thank you. Bye everybody.