The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Is Noam Dumb?

Episode Date: January 10, 2020

Is Noam Dumb? 

You're listening to The Comedy Cellar, live from the table, on the Riotcast Network, riotcast.com. Good evening, everybody. Welcome to the Comedy Cellar, live from the table here on Sirius XM Channel 99. Right on. We're here with, of course, Mr. Dan Natterman, my usual co-host. Well, I've been a past couple. I haven't been here, no. I've been, you know, on the road a little bit. But yes, I'm back for 2020.

And our producer, Periel Ashenbrand. Hi, Periel. Hi. And also sitting in is our boss, our employer, Jason Shibairo, who is the man who's... Is it Shibairo or Shibiro? No, it's Shibiro. You're fired, is actually what just happened here. As I said it out loud, I'm like, no, it's not Jason Shibairo.

The show's canceled. But you know, I hear people say Shabiro a lot. People fuck it up all the time. I think Liz says Shabiro. Natterman called me Shapiro. No, that one. Liz knows my last name. Shapiro is unforgivable.

All right. I call you Shabiro's pizza. That's true. That was even worse. So, yeah, so he's our boss. He's renewed us on the number of years. We're very appreciative. You're ready to go.

Josh Johnson. Josh was one of our favorite guests always. Josh Johnson is a writer for the Daily Show you can find him on not my thing went out you can find him on Netflix you can find him on

the comedy lineup on Netflix and he performs regularly at the Comedy Cellar yeah thanks for having me and our guest of honor Seth Simons

is a journalist covering comedy and labor labor like labor law workers people who work right issues Senator Seth Simons is a journalist covering comedy and labor. Labor like labor law? Workers. People who work. Right.

Issues pertaining to people who work. So my best friend in law school is a union-side labor lawyer. Charlie Joyce? Yeah, Charlie Joyce. We were just discussing Mossadegh with him on Facebook just today. All right. But Seth Simons also is well-known for writing a well-read column, and one of his most recent blog posts was titled Dumb Dorman. Dumb Dorman was named after Dumb Dorman.

I just want to preface this by saying that, you know, Seth had some less-than-kind words to say about you. But I want Seth to feel comfortable that we hold no ill will and he should speak freely and no one might and likely will disagree with him and might raise his voice. But hopefully we can all shake hands when this is over. He didn't want to shake hands

when he walked in. I saw he inverted his eyes. We'll see if what is said on Twitter cannot be softened with a face-to-face. I mean, if it makes you feel any better, no one at this table knows how to fight. So this is all going to be very chill. Jason, Jason, anyway, let's get right to it. So we first crossed paths during the Louis thing.

Is that correct? I think so, yeah. And you wrote something. I should have looked it up, but you wrote something about me then. And I think I emailed you, and we established a little contact then. As I understand it,

you have two main beefs with me. The first one is that we booked Louis. And I presume that you think either that it was too soon for Louis to come back or that he should never come back. Which is it, by the way? I don't think he should. Well, it depends. I don't think Louis has

meaningfully atoned or accounted for anything that he's done. And I thought it was a mistake to give him a stage before an actual reckoning took place. I also think that the problem with Louis, problem, quote-unquote, is he presents workplace safety issues,

and I think that gets overlooked a lot in discussions about free speech in a comic's right to have a stage. Well, okay, so let's hold that thought. And then the second thing is that you're beef with me now is because I complained about Hannah Nicole Jones, is that her name? Yes.

Who, the 1619 Project, who there was some socialist historians did a lot of debunking or a lot of criticisms of the facts of the 1619 Project that she was in charge of. No, for our listeners, could you just very briefly say what the 1619 Project... The New York Times did a kind of a... On the anniversary of the first slaves introduced into the New World, I think, they did a kind of retrospective, a series of articles talking about all the ways that America is still affected by the legacy of slavery. And it made some claims, essentially everything uh... was came from slavery including our prosperity including everything and some socialist historians

took her to task with a lot of details and her answer was on twitter yell at white people are very you know been right about history in the past something like that and i said that i found that offensive because when somebody gives a list of facts to refute an argument, and you attack their color instead, that's, first of all, it's an ad hominem attack.

Second of all, it's racist. And if I were to do that to some, like, if a Palestinian were giving chapter and verse about all the things that the Israelis had done wrong, and I said, what do you expect from a Palestinian? People would look at me like I was crazy. But that bothered you. That's all I said.

Well, what I would say to all of that first is that the historians you're talking about are not themselves socialist. They were interviewed by... No, no, don't. Let's just talk about... I'm getting there. I'm getting there. No, but let's just focus on the issue. Is it okay to skip over a person's logic and merely...

Two questions. Is it okay to skip over a person's logic and merely then attack them for their color, A? And B, if I don't agree with your answer to that question,

is that a moral indictment of me? Like, is it such a clear answer that anybody who disagrees with that answer to that question, is that a moral indictment of me? Is it such a clear answer that anybody who disagrees with that answer of yours deserves to have a blog post about what an idiot they are? The point that Hannah Jones made in the tweet you're referencing is that

white historians inevitably approach their work with bias, with racial bias, and that our longstanding... As black historians do. Yes, and one of those perspectives has dominated American history and American tellings of history for generations, and one of them has not.

That may be a point, but that's out of bounds. In other words, I don't think the historian would disagree with that point. Was Woods his name? I don't think Woods would disagree with that. What he's saying, if you read what Woods wrote, he wrote very specifically. She says this, but this is actually what it was. She says this, and it was actually not that number. It was this number of people.

Some of these things are not even open to bias. Well, it's interesting. Woods also said he didn't read all of the project. He just read the opening essay and then skimmed the rest. Now, I don't know if you're ducking it or we disagree. Maybe you want to apologize to me, but I'm saying that all I said

was that it was out of bounds for her to attack the color of the person rather than respond in good faith to a certainly what were his good faith uh um arguments yeah i think it's well first of all it's not it's not racist for her to attack his color um and i don't think that that was i don't think i think i think it is racable let's say it's not racist.

Is it logical? Is it fair game? This gets at what I wrote about in the article I wrote about you, which is that I think you have an understanding that many Americans have of racism as individual acts of conscious racial bias perpetrated by individual malicious actors rather than a web of systems into which white people have all been conditioned and socialized

and in which white people are granted institutional and social power. You're discussing stuff I didn't discuss. In other words, if I were a college professor and I were to give my class, I would give them the article by the historians. I said, so-and-so has written this about the 1619 Project that you've all read this year, and this is your exam. Please respond. And you would expect to see a scholarly refutation of the essay.

And what if my students wrote, what do you expect from a white guy? Handed it in. Would you dare give that student anything less than an F? Anything more than an F? I don't quite understand the question. You don't understand the question. Okay, so basically, I think I can help a little bit. So in the scope of what a person is talking about...

This is Josh Johnson, by the way. Yeah, I'm Josh. In the scope of what a person is talking about, can you at any point look at that person and say, well well that's what someone like you would say and we're not attaching color gender anything to it right now but just as a human to a human if you start speaking I'm like what do you expect someone like this to say it is very clear that you're at least not listening to me is that is that fair to say that you're not hearing my argument out because I start speaking or you start speaking. And before we can really get the thing, you're like,

well, you expect someone like this to say. Whatever that is, whatever X is, I'm not listening to you. That's a fair assessment. Sure, and I think that is as accurate a description of what Gordon Wood and Stanley McPherson how they treated the 1619 Project than it is of the one tweet from Nicole Hannah-Jones that we're talking about. There's more than one tweet along the same lines. I just don't understand why you would take that thing that I'm saying,

essentially, I'm saying now is what I said, and feel that this was, like, I'm like, you know, George Wallace or something, like, this was some outrageous thing. Did you hear what this dude, this dumb, I'm like, you know, George Wallace or something, like this was some outrageous thing. Did you hear what this dude, this dumb, use the word, this dumb guy said? He said that if you would have, if you criticize, if you criticize the idea of criticizing

somebody based on the color of their skin, that you're, that you've crossed the line of decency. Yeah, well, what I wrote about at length was your attitude about intersectionality, and I think your claims you were making about what you would probably describe as reverse racism, which is not a thing. I don't think it is actually racist.

I never said anything about reverse racism. Well, you said it would be racist and foul and a couple other words I don't have on hand to disparage Michael Bloomberg for being white. But that's not what the concept of reverse racism means to me. I said reverse racism, but you said intersectionality is just, was it racism? Oh, I think intersectionality is racism. And I think that's dumb. That's why I said it's dumb.

So I think it's racism because, well, I'm not saying all, I'm not saying that everything you can put under the heading of intersectionality is racist. What I'm saying is that the idea of reducing humans first and foremost to their immutable characteristics is wrong. And to say that actually it's not wrong, it just depends. There are certain groups it's okay to do that about, white people, and there are certain groups it's not okay to do that about. I don't think that holds up to any logic, and I think that is actually the logic of racism. Can you say that more specifically?

But I'm saying that if I say that it's okay for me to dismiss an argument out of a white person's mouth, or it's okay to assume that somebody did something because they're white, or anything to use the fact that they're white as an evidentiary fact in a case that you want to make against somebody. That, to me, is the logic of racism. Now, racism may not be the word because racism also implies a hatred based on race. I'm not saying necessarily that everybody who says that hates based on race, although I suspect many of them do. What I'm saying is that, can I pause for a second?

What I'm saying is something more. You don't need to agree with me. I have lots of close friends. My friend Chuck would probably agree with you. That's not my beef with you. I like people I disagree with. My beef with you is that you feel that

there is one truth here and if I don't agree with that one truth, matter how um fairly i can put it that there now i can be spoken about as dumb as as retrograde as all these things that i wouldn't you know like give me pause to speak about another person that i i mean do you detect good faith in me when you listen? Sometimes I do. Sometimes I think you are interested in using this podcast

to bring on people who confirm your priors and can argue for your priors. You say that to the guy who invited you on the show, the guy Branham on the show. I said sometimes. Responding to what you just said. She's our producer. She'll tell you that's not true.

I get mad when she brings someone on. I agree with you. I mean, I, my, you can say whatever you want. I just don't think what you say is that nice. Like, I don't know why. No, no, no. No, no, no. Don't change the subject.

I'm not changing the subject. I don't think it's. I'm not attacking him. I'm having a totally nice conversation. I don't think it's... Don't do to him here what he did to me on the internet. No, but I mean, I give you a lot of credit for showing up. I really do.

Like, I respect the fact, like, I'm happy to have a conversation. I don't know why it's okay to call him dumb. Like, you can disagree and you can be right. And in fact, like, you might be right about certain things. But I don't think that all of it's true.

And, I mean, we don't agree on a lot of things. On anything. But... She agrees with you on most things. No?

Including about me. I mean, that's a different podcast episode. I don't buy it. So the other thing that you call me to task for, and this is very personal, so Josh, my daughter, I've told this story too many times already on the show. Oh, many times.

My daughter comes home from the first grade. Now, what you don't know about me, or you might know about me, well, forget it. It fucking eats me up that I always feel this temptation in this day and age to display my credentials as not being racist. And I feel like at some point there's not any choice that I have a black stepchild, that my wife is of color, that my entire social life is mixed. of an actual diverse existence, as opposed to people who are doing it in a way to show off or whatever it is, like Larry David in one of the Curb Your Enthusiasm episodes.

He has this, somebody has this, somehow he doesn't know that the guy's friend is black. He says, you didn't tell me your friend was black. He says, why should I tell you that? He goes, usually people want to tell you that. They want to show off. Like, that's, something like that. So, like, I don't want to be that guy showing off.

By the way, diversity is not just in gender or race. It's also you are associated with people of different political opinions, social class, economic backgrounds, education levels. There's a lot more to diversity than just color and gender. In the modern world, the word

diversity tends to... No, but he's right. The dictionary definition is diversity, Well, in the modern world, the word diversity tends to... No, but he's right. So I said... It's a dictionary definition of diversity, but nowadays it's used more to connote racial and sexual orientation. I want to respond to what you just said, but I can wait until you're done saying whatever your longer thing is. So what I had said was that my first great daughter came home

and said, Daddy, you're white, right? She never, it had never, this is the first time anything racial had any, the notion that she had any racial awareness. This was the first moment we ever realized it. She said, Daddy, you're white, right? I'm like, yes. She goes, do you treat people

badly? I'm like, no. Did you ever see Daddy treat people badly? And she's like, well, no, but I thought maybe you used to because we learned that white people used to treat people badly? And she's like, well, no, but I thought maybe you used to because we learned that white people used to treat people badly. And that bothered me because, A, she still believes in Santa Claus. I think it's too young, actually, to be teaching her about those things. B, obviously something went wrong in the way they're teaching it

if she's now looking at her father A, with suspicion and B, as a white person. Now she, she's not white. So I would think that you could empathize with a parent in that situation. So then what did I do? So then, as this has been going on,

I left it alone for a little bit and this year I've really set about to teach my kids about racism. So we've been reading To Kill a Mockingbird. Regular listeners will know. And it's been an amazing thing. We read the whole thing. My first grader, my third grader listened to this.

And we have a very close black friend, Rosalyn. They call her Yaya. And she grew up right at the end of Jim Crow South, and I encouraged them to talk to her about things. They were outraged by this story. I mean, it was a very, very positive experience with the family to learn about, to discuss racism, and to do it in a way with their father.

And I liked the way I did it. And I think it's going to make them good, moral people. As opposed to this kind of shallow, first grade, he's essentially, which is really, I thought, just kind of identifying the good guys and the bad guys rather than identifying the human weakness to this and the evils of bigotry, which are, yes, it is white people we're talking about

for the most part in America's history, but that's not the deeper lesson. That wasn't Martin Luther King's lesson. Martin Luther King's lesson was not about white people. Martin Luther King's lesson was about racism, which is not the same thing. And somehow that also led you to call me dumb.

I would be remiss if I didn't interject that your daughter, I believe, just turned seven, and I think that's eight, and to believe in Santa at that age seems to me... She doesn't anymore. Okay, and I'm not a kid, I don't have kids, but that does strike me

just in my gut as too old to believe in Santa, but I'm not a kid, I don't have kids, but that does strike me just, and my gut is too old to believe in Santa, but I'm glad she no longer believes in Santa. Okay, so we're clear on that. I have a few things I want to say. The first thing I want to ask. In the mic, in the mic. The first thing I just want to ask is why don't you want your daughter to see you as white? Well, she's of course going to see me as... Because he's Jewish, he's not white.

No, no, no. I'm just kidding. I don't care if she sees me as white. I don't want her to think it's important that I'm different than her. These are very difficult concepts. And when a first grader is looking at her father skeptically, suspicious that he might be evil in some way, that's what i don't want

yeah it's essentially the the same thing as if she had learned about world war ii that day and then came home and asked like daddy are you a nazi it's like there it's not about the whiteness it's about the the context of like how do you look at a person that you've known your entire life and then from this like one or a few lessons back and be like, so was that you? Because you're also very young, so you're still learning. Like, it's the same way that I learned to blackness. You know what I mean? Like when I was little, I wasn't black to me and my family wasn't black.

And even when I interacted with white people, they weren't white yet, you know? And, and those, the little lessons that come about in, in life. Like I remember my mom pulled me aside one time and was like, listen, whenever you're in a store, you need to go in, you need to know exactly what you want to get. If you're shopping, you need to stand away from the shelf because you don't want anyone to think you're stealing and you don't want anyone to follow you and you don't want anyone to give you trouble. Right. And that was a, that was like one of the first instances where I was like Oh something is I see I see people put the thing in their backpack and then decide to return it at the register and whatever so that was like an instance of me learning that I was different in some way and

That moment wasn't the same as the one your daughter had because in that moment it was about Me and us there was no bad guy yet so then to come home imagine if i had a white dad and then i came home and i was like dad are you gonna follow me around to wait to see if i steal it would it's that thing yeah absolutely um and as i said as i said in the the essay i wrote the column um i i do agree that your daughter came home with a in the mic racism, but one that is shared by most white people in America, which is that racism is something that bad people do consciously. And if you don't act with conscious racial bias, you are a good person who is not racist. That's not what racism is. Racism is a web of systems that we, all of us white people, have been conditioned into. Whether or not

we have people of color who we love in our lives, we are still racist. Dude, if what you're saying is true, then obviously this is not something to be taught to a first grader. I mean, if to understand it requires to understand what you just said, how could anybody teach this to a first grader? We agree. I agree with that. So why were you upset with me for complaining about it? You wrote kind of contemptuously,

he thinks he can teach his children about racism better than a first grade teacher. And I'm like, a first grade teacher? I have ten times the educational life experience of a first grade teacher. I know first grade teachers. You got this. Because I don't think you think of racism in this way because you're telling me you're burnishing your credentials as a good person who is

not racist. I am saying that our complicity and racism is independent of our moral characters. We can be good moral people who act good in our lives and still collude in the racism that dominates our society. Fair enough. I never had that

conversation or objected to it. That wasn't what I was speaking about. And I was speaking about the alienation of a parent having their children spoon-fed and a political agenda that they're too young to understand that caused some

separation between the most important things in my life is my relationship with my children. I don't like Do you have any, by the way, do you have any knowledge of how your daughter's first grade teacher presented that? I mean, your daughter, her perception is that white people

do bad things. Do you know how it was presented? I don't know, and I bet you the first grade teacher didn't say anything that bad. I think the subject is over their heads. Did you want to say something, Jay? I was going to say that I, for one, do agree that racism is not an act of, you know, hatred towards another person based on whatever color or creed or anything like that. It is, there's a systemic bias in society, in any hierarchy, in any organization of people.

There's biases. We in this country are living in the shadows of hundreds of years of slavery. We're living in a globe that has been, you could either say decimated or developed by an imperialistic machine. Or both. I'm just saying it all exists. It all exists. I guess I think the tough part is a lot of your work, particularly if we're just talking about the article about Noam, it sort of presupposes that there is a solution to this, and that

we somehow are failing at it by just saying, hey, we're... I'm saying we as in you and me, but let's say you, right? The Jews. You're Jewish too, right? I am. I can tell. But not Josh's... I can acknowledge, of course, there's systemic

problems in this country. Of course, racism is not just unkind acts by unkind people. I agree with that. However, I think that for a father to take issue with the way such a complicated issue was presented to their children at such a young age and say, hey, this has really created a rift between my child or created a terrible thought in their head and have issue with how that was presented to a young child, I think it's fair. I don't think it's moronic. I think that...

I don't think that... It doesn't come from a bad place. It doesn't come from a bad place. And I think that it seemed as if you used this as an opportunity to almost ridicule and harp and say, well, this man's a fucking idiot because he thinks racism is just,

you know, a beating of people of color. Well, of course it's not. We all know that racism is much deeper and more complicated than that. We don't all know that. Let's be clear. We don't all know that because of the way it's taught in schools. Yeah, absolutely. Go ahead.

Don't fire me. One thing that I take issue with as a guy from Brooklyn who lives in New York and is a big old Jew is that a lot of the stuff I hear, and I've always identified as a person on the left and you probably wouldn't think I am, right? And a lot of the problems that I feel is that I take for granted what a baseline understanding of certain concepts are, right? And it almost seems like people get attacked or preached to or taken to task because we can't all assume,

but we all get certain concepts here, right? Obviously, I agree with you. Some people have the same definition of racism that you've accused Norm of having or that you are... I would say observed rather than accused. Okay, fair. So I'm just saying some people have that, right? Some people believe racism is just bad act. I'm not racist. I have a black friend. Okay, some people have that, right? Some people believe racism is just bad acts. I'm not racist. I have a black friend. Okay, some people think that. I think most people don't.

Most people that I want to deal with don't. Maybe most is not fair. Most people at this table don't, right? I mean, in this discussion, and we have a, I think you have a duty as a journalist to illuminate this concept to the people who don't fully understand it, but I think you also have a duty to the people that you speak to and that you write about to respect that they might have a more intricate or developed understanding about some of these concepts. I don't agree with his definition of racism. That's fair.

That's fair. The definition he said right here at this table, I do agree with for the most part. No, no. If you are complicit in anti-Semitism, you don't care about it, you don't lift a finger to stop it, whatever it is, that does not make you an anti-Semite. You may be failing your moral obligation, whatever it is. To me, anti-Semite

means you hate Jews, you treat Jews differently, you see Jew, you don't see me. That's what an anti-Semite is. There may be all kinds of ways that you can be complicit in anti-Semitism that I would disapprove of, but I would not say you're an anti-Semite for that. This is a false equivalency. We're not talking about anti-Semitism.

We're talking about racism, which in America and of your life, you are not a racist. And if you do not choose to take up the cause of civil rights or systemic racism on the part of other people, I might think that you're entitled or arrogant, but I would not call you racist because to call you racist and also call the guy who lynches black people racist is to dilute the word in a way that I do not think is helpful. I don't think it dilutes it because I think people are capable of understanding nuance.

I also think it's great to treat people as individuals, but you and I are not individuals. We are individuals, and we are white individuals. We are part of whiteness. We are part of a collective that benefits from social and institutional power. So we're not going to agree on that. I understand what you're saying.

Just to be fair, this is what I think is dumb, and that's why I said this is what I'm saying is dumb. I think Seth is ready to concede that no, it's not dumb. Wait, I have two... I know exactly... I have two stones

I want to jump to, and then we can talk about comedy, because there are lots of other comedies. Okay, so there's just like... I'll make it really quick. One, and this is genuinely for you, and I'm asking in a genuine way. Do you believe that you know how racism works? I don't think I have a comprehensive understanding, but I think I have some, I try to maintain some cognizance of it, yeah. I understand. Okay. So I see, like, so you just, for the purpose of the example,

so is this your iPhone? Yes. So you have an iPhone. Mm-hmm. Why don't you have a flip phone? I can't answer that. I don't know. Do you, like, is it, like, do you like Apple? Do you like, or is it that you have a lot of things you want to do on your phone?

So you've got a phone that can do all those things. Are you leading up to a Chinese flavor thing? No, no, no, no. I'm just, that is a good question. Because here's my thing. This is my thing. One thing I've watched happen in the black community and in some other communities I'm not necessarily part of, but I have a lot of friends in. So I, I, I stay like privy to their conversations and stuff is that there are some people who are younger than us who only know the iphone you only

know the iphone that's all that you know so then you see someone with a flip phone and you're like look at this broke motherfucker yeah look at this flip phone what is this dude doing with it he's lame to have a flip phone what you don't understand is that the flip phone came before the iphone and this is all this person can maybe afford or knows. And I think that we do the same thing with trying to be progressive and trying to be woke about things where someone is older than us. They're at this flip phone level. You know what I mean? And the flip phone level that they're at is genuine.

It is like, look, this is what I grew up with. This is what I still understand. This is what has worked for a really long time. I understand that it doesn't work as well anymore. If you want to send me a picture, I'm not going to get with. This is what I still understand. This is what has worked for a really long time. I understand that it doesn't work as well anymore. If you want to send me a picture, I'm not going to get it. You know what I mean? But they're not dumb or lame for having the flip phone. The flip phone actually came before the iPhone,

and there's a level of, I won't call it necessarily privilege because you can't help when you're born and everything, but there's something taken for granted with being born with the iPhone that you can do all these things like, look at young people now. I a photographer I'm a I'm a vlogger I'm a blogger I'm an everything because they already have the phone that brings all those things together so that they can do those things the same way that people are already intersectional they're already like privy to non-binary and and all g all the lgbtq the longest okay boomer of all time. Because they grew up in the thing when it was already present. It doesn't actually make them a smarter, better, more progressive person

because there's a good chance that if all of us were born in the 1920s, we would actually be very different people, completely different people. I would have a lot of probably opinions of women that were different. You guys might have different opinions of black people because you are beholden to your environment where you grew up and your level of ability to change as you move throughout the world. this person is dumb or is not with it or is a piece of shit because they believe or have an understanding of something that I see as archaic. There's an important reminder that, like, I only see this thing the way that I do because the LGBT community on a level that makes me a good person. It's just I have the tools already. Yeah, that's a great analogy. I absolutely agree.

I do want to say that I don't consider myself having been born into whatever level of wokeness I am at right now. I think I've learned and I am constantly learning from people around me, from other thinkers, and the reason is a separate thought. Before you understood it, were you dumb? Yes, absolutely. If somebody described you as dumb back when you were naive,

you would think that was fair? Yes, I think it is fair to call dumb things dumb. I don't think... Here's what I'm getting at. So you call somebody who speaks poor English from the ghetto dumb? No, that's totally different. I think you have a high burden to understand things like this because you are in charge of an extremely important institution

and an extremely powerful institution. That's an ad hominem. What is ad hominem about that? But the only point that I'm trying to make is that you had the ability to learn the things you learned because the tools had already been created. The tools exist for all of us here at this table. Sure, sure. But if you only had a spoked wheel to start with, you would not get all the way to a Mercedes in one lifetime. If it was possible, we would have done it.

It takes several lifetimes to make the progress that some people deem as basic level and absolutely necessary for the general happiness of humanity. I feel on the issue of racism, Gnome is driving a 2020 Mercedes 500, or whatever the top of the line Mercedes. It's the 500. Whatever it is, I don't feel that Nome is an archaic boomer on this issue. I am not.

I feel that he has utilized the tools at his disposal. But it's just for the purpose of the analogy. No, I don't think you were calling me that. So, by the way, what do you think about carrying an iPhone made by slave labor? Are you complicit in something there? I agree that society should be better and socialism is the way to go. And we should not have slave labor. Yes.

So why? But you don't have to have an iPhone. Yeah, I don't have to. So, is that dumb? Have you seen the cartoon that's the person popping out of a well saying, where one person says society should be better, and the other person says, ah, but you live in society? You haven't seen this cartoon.

But you're coming at me for words about my daughter, and I'm saying, well, you're actually carrying, and I actually don't want an iPhone. You're actually carrying a phone maybe made by slaves from a country that has Muslims in concentration camps. And you're lecturing me, and I'm not trying to cause a fight,

like a little humility. Like maybe we all have places we fall short. I agree with that. I don't detect any humility in your column. So let me go back to the Louis thing. Just so you know, of all the arguments about Louis, I'll do it very quickly. Workplace safety is the most ridiculous one of all.

There was never a workplace safety issue with Louis. A, it all happened 14 years ago. B, there is no place here for him to be alone with anybody. C, he's been here for 30 years years and there's never been an issue here. There are many issues with Louie coming back, but workplace safety is not the issue. I would add one more point to that. If Louie is a danger, would he be a danger in restaurants that he goes to as a patron? And should those restaurants, if they know Louie is coming, would they be duty-bound to that he goes to as a patron? And should those restaurants, if they know Louis is coming,

would they be duty-bound to keep him out, do you think, Seth? I don't think that. When we talk about workplace safety and the power that Louis gets to commit abuse, he gets that power through fame, through celebrity, and he gets fame and celebrity in places like this. Okay, but you're also a labor guy, and this is what stunned me. I didn't realize that.

Do you know that before I brought Louis back, I spoke to labor attorneys, and they said that no union contract signed would ever permit somebody to be fired for a story like this, a story in the New York Times about something in their past 15 years ago that had nothing to do with their job. That before somebody is fired, A, it has to be relevant to their job, and B, you have a right to a hearing. You have a right to present evidence.

You have a right to an appeal. There's a grievance whatever the committee is. Is it a grievance committee? No. I think there's a double standard. Because he's a celebrity, he's held to a higher standard because we all know who he is and we want to expect more from him because we feel like we're entitled to. And at the same time, because he's a celebrity he's afforded more privilege

to skirt sort of polite society's thoughts on the matter or something like that. It's sort of both, right? I agree that Louis should be tried. Well, okay, but he didn't commit a crime. I believe he should be tried also. What do you mean he didn't commit a crime? Even the New York Times did not say he committed a crime when they wrote that article.

Do you think sexual assault is not a crime? I think sexual assault is a crime. Okay. You think you could prove that Louis committed sexual assault? I don't have to prove it. He admitted to it. He said these women's stories are true. No, he admitted to asking permission to masturbate.

This is what he admitted to asking permission to masturbate. This is what he admitted to. You're the kind of person who will put this on me for merely wanting to state the record accurately. What Louis admitted to was asking for permission to masturbate in front of these women and then doing it when they laughed, which he took to be an assent. If you think there's people in doing time for that kind of a story, I don't think so. I don't think so, but maybe. What do you think sexual assault is? Sexual assault involves coercion

of some kind. And I don't think that Louis admitted to... It involves non-consensual sexual activity. No, it means coercion because... But non-consensual is activity. No, it means coercion because... But non-consensual is... Well, you know what? I'm not an expert on what it means. And if Louis should be tried, try him.

But he hasn't been tried. And nobody brought charges. And it was 15 years ago. And I thought it was the right thing to do since he, as opposed to many people, as opposed to Bill Clinton, he fessed up and admitted to certain things, and you disagreed.

And what bothers me about you, two things, and I get to that, is that I don't think that people who disagree with me are bad. I don't, what you don't want to recognize is that there's a principled argument to saying, you know, the mob

shouldn't decide when somebody loses their career. And that there's a principled argument to saying, you know, the mob shouldn't decide when somebody loses their career. And that it's tricky to define that. And that should give us all pause because nobody could actually say the standard. We have wildly inconsistent standards. Mike Tyson, Bill Clinton, one who beat up Rihanna, Chris Brown. I mean, we have all sorts of stories of real assaulters, rapists, whatever it is, who don't get the Louis treatment. And I'm like, you know what, I don't see this.

So, fine. And, again, you can disagree with me. I don't want to debate that with you. I want to get to the heart of the matter now is I wonder with you if it's really more about trying to get me canceled. I don't want to cancel you. And I don't think you have to worry about being canceled. No, no, no. I don't have to worry about it. I do have to worry about it. I think that- You're not going to get canceled. No one has been canceled except for like Cosby and Harvey Weinstein.

I read somewhere that you said you do this for exposure. You tweeted somewhere. I don't do it for that. I do it for exposure. Who said that? You did in one of your tweets. I do this for exposure. You tweeted somewhere. I don't do it for that. I do it for exposure. Who said that? You did in one of your tweets. I do it for exposure. Oh. That was a joke because I write about UCB a lot. And I feel like you're trying to light a fuse here

by painting me in the comedy cellar as something that might get clicks for your website. And that's the business we're in. I get that. Your clicks are my customers paying the check. Actually, I don't get clicks for your website. And that's the business we're in. I get that. Your clicks are my customers paying the check. Actually, I don't get paid for the stuff that I write on my blog.

Somehow it's your career, and somehow this is how you make your living. I don't. I make a living copywriting for law firms. I write about comedy because I care about it. Fair enough. Whatever it is, it's what you want to do with your life. And you want to be successful at it, whether you get paid for it or not. And I just feel like in some way what you were really after is for this to catch fire.

Not to have a conversation with me. You didn't send me an email. Listen, have you thought about this? Have you thought about that? I hear that you're thinking about things and I disagree. No, let me take it. And I had invited you on the podcast a year ago. Let me take it, and I had invited you on the podcast a year ago, let me take it public.

Let me call him stupid. Let me selectively quote from him and let me see what kind of momentum I can get about this dude. At a time when people's lives are ruined by this stuff. At a time when you know I've been threatened for this kind of stuff. And I'm just wondering,

does it give you any pause? You think not a you think I'm a bad guy You think if everybody were like me in this country? This would be like a terrible racist place to live where people didn't get a fair shake You think I'm really part of the problem like I'm the kind of guy I'm the one you should be writing about as as a symbol of what's wrong with holding people down in this country Do you think that? You said a lot of things that I'll try to respond to all of. One is, no, I don't want to cancel you.

I don't think you should be canceled. I didn't come on a year ago because I lived in California a year ago. I accept the criticism. No, you said you didn't want to come on, but that's okay. I said I'd let you know if I was in town. Maybe he didn't want to come on because he lives in California. That's certainly possible. That's a good point.

Long flight. I don't know if he can afford business class. What was the next thing? I think you do want it. I think you were hoping to cancel me. I'm not trying to cancel you. I'm telling you in your face right now. I came here because, as I said earlier,

you're in charge of an important institution, and I want comedy to be better and more equitable and safer, and I think you have a knee-jerk defensiveness to criticism on grounds of community safety or on grounds of racial equality that prevents this institution and all the institutions that use it as a model from becoming more equitable.

You wrote a column calling me racist and calling me dumb. You are racist. I'm racist. All white people are white racists. Okay, so if you're racist too, then why are you calling me racist and calling me dumb. You are racist. I'm racist. All white people are racist. Okay, so if you're racist too, then why are you calling me racist? Everyone is racist. Why don't you write a column about yourself then? I'm not in charge of a comedy seller. Have you read his most recent blog post? But quick question, and this might, I don't know.

Who knows if we're going off the rails. But so in the scope of all white people being racist or that everyone is racist right why then is the because i guess i'm still stuck on the thing from before why is that thing of dismissing what a person says because they're white not racist if we just said all white people are racist and everyone is racist fine everyone is racist then how is an action carried out from a person of whatever versus a not necessarily just white by the way like like maybe potentially non-binary or trans to cis or why is the um minority to majority not the flip when it is the same well Well, I mean, in academic terms, at least when we talk about racism,

we are talking about institutional power, which in America, at least, white people have. Two, and this gets back to stuff we were talking about earlier, I think it is fair to point to, say, white historians and say your work is filtered through a racial lens. I think it is fair to point to white politicians and say the stuff you're talking about is filtered through a racial lens. No think it is fair to point to white politicians and say the stuff you're talking about

is filtered through a racial lens. No, it's not fair. Why? I'll tell you why. It's fair if you list where they're wrong and then say, you see how you got this wrong? That's because you're coming through a racial lens. That's fair.

What is not fair is to say, I don't need to tell you where you're wrong. All I need to know is that you're white. That's night and day. I do think the burden should be on white people to reflect on how our unconscious bias affects the things we do. I understand, but that's two different things, though. That is, to be fair to what you're saying and what you are saying, both of you, that is two different things. Because the logic, the problem is the logic.

Because here's the thing. I grew up up in the south and I'm obviously black can't can't miss me and so because of that I've experienced an entire litany not necessarily the whole spectrum because I haven't been killed but I have experienced what I would what I would consider a broad portion of the spectrum of what racism is in terms of speech and actions against me and lots of things. So when I see an action that I recognize from something that happened to me, and I see it being covered as not being homophobic or something else, because I fight for everyone. I'm not some guy that's just like like a white apologist or anything like that but i can see where there's poison and i think

there is a poisonous logic because by the same standard that we're talking about now with the historians is what makes it hard for black people to become curators of museums of of like lots of jobs that are maybe potentially white centric like when you go to a museum and every museum seems to have like a greek section like an ancient greek section but there's not a lot of ancient african art all over the museums of america so then you apply and you're like look i've studied world history i've studied art history everything and then they see you potentially as a black person who is just going to try to get more african art and won't know about the greek art that's already there that's all the museum can afford by the way and so they don't give you the job and they didn't give you the job because they made an assumption

about you because they looked at you and i think that sometimes there's there's a poisonous thought that is coming from the oppressed person and they get a pass for it and the problem with that is that i've seen hate i've seen how it grows i've seen where it comes from and i see how it gets carried out to take a stand against it even if it is in the instance of what some people call reverse racism or white racism or whatever it's still important because if you stop prejudice and and hatred in its tracks no matter who it's coming from you do have a better world because of it and just because someone's had it

easier doesn't mean that they should have it like us for a little while or be subject to some of the things that we were for a little while because now you're just trading now you know we're taking turns shooting each other but no one's getting rid of the gun if that makes sense and that's my worry when I hear rhetoric from an academic level.

Because racism and all of the isms, all of the bad stuff, it happens in real life. And it happens for reasons sometimes that can't be explained away by academia. And so when you see the beginnings of it or you see a little thought of it, I feel uncomfortable with it in general. Even when it doesn't affect me. Because playing things don't affect me. Now there are certain issues... Let him answer. Yeah, I want to say first, have you ever worked in a museum?

Is this coming from... No, but I go to a lot of museums. I'm not saying that prejudice and discrimination do not flow in all directions. All people are prejudiced by nature. We make judgments constantly about everything. As I've been trying to stress, I think when we talk about racism, that one word in America, we are talking about the power that has been invested in white people for generations,

which I think is important to focus on in cultural institutions like the comedy cellar because comedy and show business are deeply riven by inequality, and to fix that inequality, we have to be honest with ourselves about our own unconscious and conscious biases, and we have to have a more nuanced understanding of what racism is than

active bias. Fair enough. So what's my responsibility in that? By the way, I'm flattered that you think we're such an important institution. It's not all that, actually. I know. But what am I not doing that I'm supposed to be doing from my perch as the gatekeeper? Before you answer that, are we going to have time to get to the Golden Globes?

Yeah, we're going to have time. We're going to go long. Let me ask first. What internal metrics do you keep on demographics in your lineups? None. I would say that's one thing you should do is keep internal metrics on demographics in your lineups.

What are you doing to have diverse lineups? What should I do with those metrics? Reflect on how... Are you saying that I should put someone on who's less funny because they're race? No, I think there are lots of funny people. Why do I need metrics?

Because, as I've been trying to say, our unconscious biases, our complicity in racism manifests in everything we do. When the people who decide, when people sitting at the table at an institution make decisions for that institution, if they're all white, their whiteness is going to come out. I'm not sure to guess that if I did keep the internal metrics, I would have to put a throttle on the number of black male comedians. Because I believe there's more of them here than represent the population.

So is that what you would suggest? I have more than 12% black comedians here. Well, I think... This is an important question. What do you mean? Or is it just working one direction? Did you look at the part of the article I wrote that was the survey of... Are you going to answer my question? I'm getting to it.

I'm listening to you. I'm trying to work in previous things, make a holistic experience. There was a study. It wasn't a study. It was a bunch of researchers and computer scientists scraped together lineups from September, I think, to November in 55 comedy clubs across America, and they found

it was mostly white male lineups and did you look at that at all? No. Does it interest you? No, it does interest me. No, I don't know if I Maybe you can email that to me afterwards. It's in the article. I'll send it to you.

I mean, what they found was that lineups were 83% men, 16% women, 64% white, and 35.2% people of color. Before I came here on Sunday, I just looked up how many comics you had booked here this week from Sunday to Thursday. Obviously, incomplete information because I'm not trying to cancel you. I'm trying to just talk about the place we are. You had... You did choose Kwanzaa as the week. Go ahead.

You had 81 comics booked as of Sunday. 26 of them were people of color. 17 were women. 8 were women of color. Okay, what does that present, did you do the math? I mean, it does roughly line up with the broader figures, yes. With the broader population? No, not the women, does it? Not the broader population with the other study. And so what can I do about that?

Book more people of color, book more women. Well, you don't mean men of color, you mean women of color. Yes. But I might have to give fewer spots to the men of color who are overrepresented.

Is that okay? I don't see why you could not. Everybody can't be overrepresented. So, if someone is overrepresented, that means someone

has to be underrepresented. There's no, that's, you only have 100% to deal with. If I have 25% black males, there's no way to represent the other 75% people fairly. May I interject? Yes.

Also, we're looking at one metric. We're looking at gender. We're looking at color. What about disabled folks? What about people below the poverty line? You're absolutely right. Whatever way you want to slice the pie, you could look at any population and divide it along any metric you want to divide it along and prove that there's not enough diversity on X, Y, or Z.

Now, clearly, this country has a problem with representation on a number of different spectrums. However, I understand there's a noble pursuit here, but I just don't know what the solution is, and I don't know if it's saying, you need more black women right now. Can I add something to it? I think it is. I think it's that simple. Okay, but can I add something to it? I think it is. I think it's that simple.

Okay, but can I add something to it? The party that stands for this ideology that he's espousing has only old white people now as the candidates. Like, why are you lecturing to me when they, the liberal, like, who are the final ones? Elizabeth Warren, old white lady, Bernie Sanders, Joe Biden, and you're coming out on a comedy club? Like, I'm just putting on the funny. I write about comedy.

I don't write about politics. It also elevates the importance of the comedy, which, of course, comedy is an essential part of American society. However, at the end of the day, is this the thing we need to put all of our energy into? Well, he's putting his energy into it because that's his thing, and I think that's a fair thing. Can I just say, I think,

buried in what Seth has been saying, and I disagree with most of it, there is one kernel of truth that could be... Keep it to yourself. Okay. He did allude to this, that maybe, Noam, you want to put on the best acts.

Maybe, maybe, go ahead, yeah. And I think that's the appropriate way toam, you want to put on the best acts. Maybe, maybe. Go ahead, yeah. And I think that's the appropriate way to book this place to put on the best acts. Is it possible that your perception

of who the best acts are might be, to some extent, flavored by who you are? Is that possible? Do you concede that possibility? No.

Actually, I don't. You've said as a possibility? Who you like sitting with at this table. No, actually I don't. You've said it's a possibility. Who do you like sitting with at this table? That's not how he puts it on stage. That's not how I put it on stage. No, the reason I don't concede it is because, A, I'm very thorough. I have had many conversations with many, many, especially female comics.

Do you know anybody around who we're not using? Do you know anybody good? I'll ask every underrepresented group, because I'm sensitive to it. I say, is there anybody you know like underrepresented group consented to a fake you know is anybody you know we should be working here i'd i'd do those things and i think that the general attitude of the people working at justin comment on it but hopefully the right way if you want to work continue work here no i think that the other president of the working here is that we're not passing

over people who should be who would be hitting home runs here. There is a thing because, oh, okay. Within the rhetoric that you're talking about, like you, Seth, when you say, you know, getting more, booking more, everything like that, assumption in several of the liberal circles that I run in that to fix this problem is simply in The the change being made by the gatekeeper, but what people are missing sometimes is that genuinely Those people don't exist yet. So they definitely exist in the world. They completely 100 and totally they they are there It's the pipeline but needs to be addressed. It's both the pipeline, but it's also the fact that, like, I don't know.

There's two problems. One, I don't know that parody would actually fix anything, because there is a bigger issue of, like, just because this is the population stats, should this be what the lineup is? Or maybe because comedy has been so white and male for so long, maybe there should be more women than men. But then is that fair to the people who are already working? There are bigger questions in there.

But the second thing is, you want to book the best lineup. Like, best lineup in the city. Would I be fair in saying that you want to book the best people out of the people that you already have for a particular night? I'm not going to interrupt you, but I would say I would analogize it like if this were like food coming out of the kitchen. I'd be like, don't give me that shit. Obviously, I just have to have the best food on the customer's plate. And that's it. And the customer wants that too.

And the customer is very seldom spoken about in these conversations. Which is very important. You need to serve your audience. Yeah, I care about the audience. Yeah, and that's the thing that I'm getting to. So basically, you would never, if you, God forbid, anyone in here was in an accident. If you were in an accident and there was someone trying to give you roadside assistance immediately, you're stuck in your car or you're hurt or something.

And they just started moving you around. They started grabbing you, pinching at you, everything like that. And then you said, oh, God, are you a doctor? And they said, no, but I'm Asian. That would not constitute you're not a doctor. I don't want your help specifically because you're not a doctor. When you go to a comedy show, especially a comedy show that you pay for and you're drinking at,

and particularly in the instance of The Cellar, people that are making their New York trip, they travel here because they might see someone famous or they know it has a reputation for giving them a good time. They, even as black people that come here, and sure, maybe want to see one or two black comics,

are not as concerned with the sort of parody. They want to see the best show. maybe want to see one or two black comics are not as concerned with the sort of parody they want to see the best show they want to be blown away because it's part of their new york experience and they're not thinking about things academically in that way and i think that sometimes in our rush to make things more fair and and and more equal we forget that one the people that we really want in these spaces, maybe they don't, maybe they aren't ready. Because when you open doors for people, when you take like Girls Who Code or a program like that, that's like, there aren't enough women in tech, we want more women in tech, right? You can't just snap and make more women in tech. The women that we're

training to be in tech right now will be in tech in four more years. So there are going to be four full years of there not being enough women in tech. And maybe there won't be enough women in tech even when those women get into tech. But the process does take time because as a comic, it takes time to grow. It takes time to get good, get your timing right, learn an audience, learn how to read people. And you don't want to just be grabbing people off of metrics of identity. Absolutely.

I want to, first I'll just say, I can stay here as long as you need to get to everything we have to get to. Okay, maybe we'll split it into two episodes. Okay. And maybe we'll cut it down for the Nazis at Sirius and then we'll do a longer one. We all do worship Hitler.

We'll do a longer one for the podcast. Go ahead. I want to respond to that. First, I just want to respond to, just then we'll longer one. We all do worship Hitler. We'll longer one for the podcast. Go ahead. I want to respond to that. First, I just want to respond to, just acknowledge that you're right. There are a lot of axes that were not covered by the figures that I cited earlier, and they all do matter, and we should all care about them and be pushing for them. One of them is also political leanings. Conservative comedy, which I don't like,

is severely underrepresented. Oh, I think the conservative comics have their own ecosystem that is doing just fine right now. But they're not represented here. I think they... Okay. But yes, but sorry.

I put a deaf comic on recently, by the way, who emailed me out of nowhere, just so you know, because I felt moved to give him a chance. And he did pretty well. Yeah, I'll say again.

Not trying to cancel you. I have way more human sympathy than you give me credit for. Go ahead. Okay. Go ahead. I think, Josh, yes, I agree with you that it is... Well, I agree with you that it is... Well, I agree with you. I do also think, though, that you could get rid of everyone who is currently a seller regular. You could say, bye, you're done, and there would be enough great comics

out in the world right now who could come and replace them that your audiences would not lose anything. I'm going to write a column about how dumb you are, because that is the most utterly naive thing. Do you know that only half the regulars at the cellar are able to kill? You mean he's not even the best drummer in the Beatles? I'm saying like,

you think there's another 40 comics out there rated? No. There's probably, well, you know, I mean, there are, in every show, there's like maybe two or three comics

who kill and the rest are already, you know. Well, if they're mediocre, then why aren't you trying to improve diversity anyways? What you just said is like, you know, you could take the NBA and all those guys, but actually you could just, the entire NBA could die in a plane crash, God forbid, and then you could just replace them with another hundred black guys who could play just as well. No, that's not the way it works. I do disagree that the people performing at the Cellar right now are necessarily the best of the best. I think there are so many great comics out there.

Send me some names. I'll book them. I will audition anybody who suggests. I'll be a booker. I will audition anybody who suggests. If you book the show, no one will fucking come here. I promise you that. I promise you that. No, no, don't say that.

I'm sorry. That's not a tacky, but I promise you. No, I don't think it's true. I think you that. I promise you that. No, no, don't say that. I'm sorry. That's not a tacky, but I promise you. No, I don't think it's true. I think you are a slight bit out of touch with what actually sells tickets in New York City. That's it. That's the end of the...

Do people come here because of who's on... Don't talk to my friend Seth that way. ...the lineup, or do they come here because they're tourists and they want to go

to the comedy cellar and see the good comedy? I think there's... Not everyone who comes here is a tourist. Yeah. Let's just acknowledge that, right? So some come because of the cachet, but there's plenty Let's just acknowledge that. Some come because of the cachet.

There's plenty of New York City locals. More than half of our audience. They're going to see the best comedy in New York. They come here from far and wide because of the reputation, which is in turn built on the fact that good shows are usually to be had here. One out of those three I could replace. Those are irreplaceable comics. I don't want to blow up your spot,

but I see Jared Freed, Colin Quinn, and Jim Norton, none of which are irreplaceable. And all of which happen to be white guys, and that sucks. But it is what it is. I would remind you that we're doing radio. There's no video here. We have four video screens

above the bar that display who's on stage right now at Noam's various clubs in this multiplex of comedy. So Noam was referring to the three comics that he saw on the screen. But it does bring it home.

It does bring it home. You see Colin Quinn, Jim Norton. These are special talents. And to think, oh, no, there's another Colin Quinn, another Jim Norton. No. I will agree with Seth, there's another Colin Cornrady, another Jim Norton.

No. I will agree with Seth that there's a few clunkers that work here. I'm not denying that. Because people are good. I'm saying, by and large,

it's a solid lineup. Can I ask a question? Yes. How come you don't book your own comedy show? That's not fair. Why not? That's a totally reasonable,

I'm allowed to ask a question? Because I don't think it is tenable to write critically about comedy institutions while also forging a career in the industry. But you just said, hire me as a booker and I'll... He was saying that tongue-in-cheek.

He knows damn well that Esty's never leaving. I do think it might be... It might at least be interesting to, even if you don't put your name on it, help in a shadowy way curate a weekly showcase somewhere, anywhere, and just try to fill it with people that you want to be represented. Now, that's not his business. I think he offered to send Noam some names, and I think we can start with that. No, but I don't think you can be—

There's a lot of criticism without solution, and it's not just you. It's a thing I notice a lot in people who blog or people who have opinions that want to be heard. It's sort of like, here's why you're a fucking asshole. I have no way to do this. Yeah, I mean, wait, can I just finish what I'm saying? I mean, I think that's the thing that rubs me. You're right about white women, by the way, but go ahead. Jewish.

That's the thing that rubs me the wrong way is that it feels so smug. It's like you're a fucking idiot. Not you. I'm not saying that to you. I understand. You're a fucking idiot and these are all of the things that you're doing wrong.

That's like saying Siskel and Ebert should have produced their own movies. Well, maybe they should have. They're people that critique and being a critic, though I disagree with most critics most of the time, is a legitimate function in society. I'm not saying that it isn't.

Seth is trying to build. It doesn't mean he has to book his own show. However, Seth was invited to send home names of comedians that he feels would work well here, and I think that that's a fair question. But I have a better idea, and this might be actually something to think about. Why don't you, I don't know if you have the means to take a week off, but why don't you embed yourself here for a week?

I'll give you full access with SD, everything. Come to our meeting where we do the lineup and write an article about it. That's why I'm here right now. I want to do that. Would you like to do that? Really, it could be an interesting article. You could see it from the inside. I agree. Do not write anything to get me canceled. I'm very sorry with you.

I can't believe you will see that it's not a lack of trying. Here's the problem. Seth has already kind of built a reputation as coming after the seller. Seth has already kind of built a reputation as coming after the seller. He has cultivated and curated a fan base that is, I think, anti-seller.

Not just a seller. He comes after people. But if he came here and, God forbid, thought no one was a fair guy that did a good job, what the fuck is he going to write? I want to say a few things. I think you would write a something fair. Go ahead.

I told you I wanted to come here on the condition that you would let me interview for a bigger profile that would be more fair-minded and ideally for a larger publication than my blog, which has 800 subscribers. But it's a little self-serving, then. That's okay. It is self-serving in that I have things I believe and want to say and that I use a platform to say them. We're in a comedy club right now.

I know you wanted to say something earlier. I think I finished my thought for the moment. I think you had something to say. Let's get into all the other things. The Golden Globes, political correctness in comedy, come on, all the stuff that you guys... Let's go to the Golden Globes because the Golden Globes... I just want to reiterate first that,

as probably everyone at this table knows, entire ecosystems have arisen outside of comedy clubs, of comics who felt they are not at home in comedy clubs. And those comics are often extremely good and talented. And I think it doesn't have... You don't buy that those places exist or that the people't have, you don't buy that those places exist or that the people are good. I don't buy that. Good is a very

Sure. It's an ugly term. I don't buy that the people who are saying they're not welcome in comedy clubs. Listen, of all the people in the world who get passed over for something, everything in life, how many of them say, yeah, I just wasn't good enough?

I don't mean people who were not passed. I mean people who feel as if the club system, the club environment is hostile to them because they're women, because they're people of color. You're missing my point. What I'm saying is that people, when they don't get something that they aspire to, almost never say, I guess I just wasn't good enough. I guess they construct a rationale. One rationale, maybe it wasn't hospitable. There's many rationales. But I don't see, you know what, I can't speak for some comic of an island there's no way i can understand that somebody who

didn't work here would say all yeah it was just an unhospitable place to work i did i just don't sit you said i don't see that at all we ensure we wouldn't see it you own the plan all no i understand what you're saying but i'm telling you that's not accurate because cater to comedians. I worry about them.

I look after them. I make sure that the ones who I think might be fragile are treated in a way that they won't feel unwelcome. Esty is even better at it than I am. She's like a full-on Jewish mother. She worries and nurtures every single comedian here. Also, there's something to be said for... It's like if

you are in... Let's say you're a black man and you get arrested. And then in your head, because I can tell you this just from the few minor and accidental run-ins I've had with the law, because I'm not like a i don't know if you can tell but i am a pretty docile person but i know that if i were to get arrested and i

were to go to jail uh even for the weekend to wait to be arraigned or indicted whatever i would be scared because i believe that the system in front of me is not going to treat me fairly, is actually going to be unjustly harsh on me and will not hear me out. And we'll assume you're guilty. And we'll assume that I'm guilty. Now, all that being said, and maybe all of that being true, I don't know the judge that I'm about to meet. So I know, I personally know judges. I have met judges. I've talked to them. Some of them are former judges and some of them, so I know some of the people in the actual system that create the bigger system that makes people feel scared, unwelcome, like they won't be treated fairly, everything.

And between the individual to the system, there's a at at play that you can't then it is it would be a fallacy to attribute the whole to its parts or the parts to its whole and i think that yes there are plenty of places especially in the south if i were arrested i'd be like you need to kill me just kill me i'm done i'm done i will not and then there are places where even with cops i've had i've had interactions with cops where i'm like, this is a person. The person has a job that is, right now, especially in the news, looks like nothing but toxically masculine people grabbing black people and slamming them into hoods. being made about the seller or some of the things that you've deduced from the numbers on the lineup have painted a picture of norman away that that is not who he is or who sd is or how things came to be a lot of the things that you might see on a particular lineup are actually very very happy accidents i know i've gotten extra spots before because someone like Michelle

Wolf was busy. And so maybe she cancels, maybe I get an extra spot, that's great. And those things are at play in a way that keeping the metrics of a comedy lineup can't account for. Sure. And again, the point I'm trying to make is that we may all of us be good, progressive, liberal-minded people and still manifest inequitable racial outcomes just by virtue of being part of this bigger

system. We're definitely not all liberal-minded people. No, no, no. I respect... We all want... Hopefully we all want equitable racial outcomes. But, no, no. I respect we all want hopefully we all want equitable racial outcomes. But of course we know that that's not the way the world works. Even in

places like how many places down the list of the fastest people in the world would you have to go before you've got to the first non-black person? I don't know. 100? 200? Like the world doesn't just always break down according to race. Race is maybe a pretty ugly way to divide people up in a way.

What we're concerned about is bigotry, I think. And that's why we're not concerned that the NBA is mostly black. We're not concerned that the NBA is over-representing black people, because we don't suspect any bigotry. But you might suspect bigotry at the comedy cellar. But suspecting it and assuming it's there are two different things. And before you accuse it,

you need to have your evidence because it could just be working out that way. And it is just working out that way. I know, and I'm saying the reason it works out that way is because of unconscious bias. No! Then give me the name of the person I need to book! There's another thing going on here, which is sort of the

capitalist problem, right? Is that you're catering to an audience of paying customers. These paying customers want to see a certain type of comic. That certain type of comic might fit a certain mold, right? And whiteness is viewed as a safe standard in all culture. No, no, no.

I got to interrupt you. I'm sorry. Because this is, not long ago, we had a week in Vegas where I think we had five black comics. Right. The MC and every other comic was black. I think Colin was off, or maybe it was one. Right. And somebody pointed it out to me.

You know, you have five black comics available. I'm like, I didn't even notice. Right. I hadn't even noticed. But the thing is this. Here's my point. You have to go? No, no.

My point is that this is what's going on here. Like, look at the screen like 10 minutes later. It's like, if you want to work by these metrics, there's a black woman, there's a Middle Eastern man. Right. You know what I mean? Right. A Middle Eastern man and a black woman. That happens. there's you know I mean a middle-aged man and a black woman that's that happens my point was this

my point was that I think it is unfair to go after like the comedy club or the owner of the comedy club or the book of the comedy club are not the problem the problem is sort of these other inequalities in

society like a lot of your writing deals with how hey, it's not fair that comedy costs a lot of money to try to embark upon, right? If you want to start being a comedian, you need to have money to be able to support yourself because you're not going to make money starting as a comic. So a lot of those guys are white guys because they have money. That's not

Noam's fucking problem. That's not Esty's problem. It's not the seller's problem. If you fix these other problems in society, the equality trickles out into the comedy club. The target of the comedy club is the wrong target, in my opinion, right? It's sort of, and by the way, full disclosure, I'm a sketch teacher

at UCB as well, right? A lot of white guys are at UCB. That's not because of some fucking problem with UCB. It's other societal problems where the people who could continue to pursue this fucking pipe dream happen to have some disposable income and some parents with some money. Well, let's...

It is a problem with UCB because of the cost of sketch classes at UCB, which sets a high barrier to entry. Again, this has nothing to do with comedy or the people who try to do it. It has to do with the people of disposable income. It is unfair that I had disposable income. No, it is a problem with the gatekeepers. Are you saying they shouldn't charge what they can get?

I'm saying that the high price of the sketch class limits who can take the sketch class, limits who can do sketch. But there's scholarships for diverse candidates, right? Which go to a very small amount of people. But that sort of distracts from the point. The point is,

unfortunately, the pursuit of comedy or acting or writing or any artistic endeavor, sort of the barrier to entry is you're not going to make money doing this for a lot of your youth, right? When you can work hard, you're going to not make money because it's not accounting or lawyering or fucking bus driving, right? There's not money coming in when you're trying to be a comic or an artist. And unfortunately, people can afford that happen. It skews because of America. White guy, right? Those are who systematically have more discourse.

What you're saying sounds interesting and logical, except that I don't see, I'm not really seeing it. It's more visible in sketch and improv than it is in stand-up which has lower barriers to entry. If you're not going to make money doing the thing you love for ten years, it helps you if you are able to support yourself through that time, right? But that's not

necessarily the gatekeepers of these common institutions' fault. It's sort of a societal fault. And it is incumbent upon the gatekeepers to reduce the barriers to entry. Fuck the gatekeepers. Leave them alone. They're not the problem. It's society. Because society loses from a lack of diversity of perspectives in the art form. And anyone who wants to give good comedy to audiences who love comedy should want and crave a diversity of perspectives.

It's far too easy to go after the gatekeeper, quote unquote gatekeepers. Oh, I think it's really hard to go after the gatekeepers. If the audiences have disposable income and the people practicing have disposable income, it's not, there's no problem there. They're just serving the people who can pay for it. You're serving your audience. So there's two things, which I would be,

so I would be interested in your opinion on, Seth, is that I have two big issues sometimes when we end up talking about who gets let in and who doesn't a little bit later in the game. Comedy seller, at least among comics, I can only speak for comics, I don't know how you guys feel about it.

I just know coming up in comedy, this is how I feel about it. Comedy seller is one of the things to check off the list if you're going to like quote unquote make it in comedy sure plenty of people make it who aren't past here who don't even live here everything but plenty of people work here that ain't making it yeah and so so that's why it's one of them of a mini list of things that a person can do to either feel like or be on their way to quote unquote making it whatever that means for them. The people here, whether they're killing every single set or not, the people here cannot be doubted in the amount of experience they have. A lot of people that are here, I don't know what the average is, but a lot of people here have been doing comedy for 10 years plus. I haven't, but I know plenty of the people I share a lineup with have. And I think that sometimes when you get to award shows, when you get to things like The Cellar,

when you get to things that people want, there's this sort of pressure put on very late that is like, why isn't there more representation? Why isn't there more diversity in this thing? But I can promise you, I started in Chicago. I mean, especially if we become friends, I can take you to where I started in Chicago. No one is complaining about the fact that an open mic that's free to attend, where you can wait to do five minutes for a really bad crowd, like almost a crowd of just comics.

It is the same as dying. five minutes for a really bad crowd like almost a crowd of just comics like like just it it is it is the same as dying um that thing no one is complaining that the people at that mic that wait two hours to go up are up to two hours to go up are 90 white men it's only when those white men start becoming successful when those black men start coming successful that we then talk about women and all the other metrics that you can divvy up and i think that that is also a problem there's an onus on me as a performer to do my best if i'm not being seen as doing my best or to your point from before if i don't feel comfortable in an institution that i feel like i need to like make it or something there are so many other avenues because of the internet and the age that we live in that I can still make it.

And so sometimes there's a bit of pressure that is a problem because we as liberals, I'm a liberal as well, we as liberals sometimes aren't the best problem solvers because sometimes if you give us an equation that doesn't have the right fit of uh of variables we refuse to give you an answer and and i've seen that in look you look at something like there are comedy clubs in iowa iowa doesn't just seem very white it is very white so let's say there is a comedy seller level comedy club in iowa that people travel to that people love that people love going to see that has half regulars and half tourists but the actual people that

live in Iowa are mostly white and mostly white men are going up at that place is is there still this owners I want my friends of color my trans friends I want everyone to get booked that's that's great that will make for a better show that won't because it sucks to go after someone who bombed i know some people want to do that but that's because they have like a little bit of of like they're fearful of how they'll do so they'd rather someone do terrible before them then a really good comic wants a really good comic to go before them because then you have to try to beat what they did and you want the best show possible so as much as i want some of my friends that are in this other

intersexual areas to get booked and stuff there aren't as many that i would recommend for the seller because i know they're not there yet because they've been doing comedy for two years how many trans friends i was wondering would you say you had both of them yeah both of them and but i just i that is my thing, is that if there were, this is my question to you that I'm posing, if there is a comedy club like the ones that I know of in, say, a middle America, Iowa, Wyoming or something, that does have this mostly white, mostly, do they get some sort of pass? Or is there still this onus on them to go out and find a black woman or a disabled person to put on their lineup, and they should be searching for that rather than the person who's getting into comedy trying to get past at that club?

I don't think the onus is to find the one person to represent X group. I think the onus is to be finding as many different comics of as many different backgrounds and perspectives as possible to combat the, again, generations of embedded whiteness that exists in every aspect of culture. All right, I love this. I just want to say,

I do believe, I see lots to say, I do believe, having... I see lots of comedy. I know lots of comics. I live this too. I do think there are... The whole problem with the entertainment industry

right now is that there are more great creatives than there are jobs for them. And I think that is as true of the comedy seller than it is

of television writer jobs or acting jobs. There are lots of great comics out there. So what do you think is happening? People are coming to me, they send me their tape or whatever it is, and they're great and I'm deciding not to use them. And unconsciously, the reason I'm deciding not to use them is because they're either a woman or they're of color. That's your explanation?

I am certain that unconscious bias manifests itself in your decisions as much as it manifests itself in my decisions. I'm not saying you're a bad person because of that. I'm not saying that defines everything you do. You can call me dumb. I'll call you dumb. I never called you dumb. You called me dumb.

I think Seth is ready to concede that Noam is not dumb, but he's having difficulty admitting he's wrong. And I understand that. I think the way you talked about race was dumb. I hear the apology. You know, dumb is really the wrong word. I mean, like, I have a decent IQ. I can do well on logic.

I can do silly. I'm not dumb. All right? You can disagree. Not like they say. You can disagree. Not like they say. You can disagree. Smart people can disagree without either of them being dumb. I'll be honest.

It's a pretty childish, petulant thing to call somebody dumb because you don't agree with them, especially when they can go from A to B to C to D. And you don't even try to go from A to B to C to D. You just start with the conclusion. That's all you've got is your conclusions. You've never delineated any logic how you got there. You say there's unconscious bias. You don't say, these are the three people you didn't

use. You say, you have unconscious bias because you're white. And if you disagree, you're the one that's dumb. And you do too. Fine. That's like you throw that in there to inoculate yourself, but you're not, but you don't really mean that because you don't accuse yourself in the column. You don't say just like me, Dwarven, blah, blah, blah, blah. You just say about Dwarven.

You don't say, you know what? Dwarven does this, but he's really exactly like I am. And I'm no better than he is. And I don't mean to pretend that he's anything worse than me. You don't say things like that. So clearly it's taken that you're saying he's something that I'm not. He's a racist. He's unconscious bias.

He's all the things that whiteness is in the bad sense. Again, I don't own the comedy cellar. And I am woke. That's what woke means, right? I am out of that slumber. I see the world as it is. And who gives a shit about his logic? Logic is for old people.

Old farts want to follow logic and make connections that things follow each other. I know the truth. I woke up, and it's unconscious bias. And if he doesn't see it, he's dumb. If you're arguing that you don't have unconscious bias,

I do still think that's dumb. But do you want to agree to disagree? Well, I think you guys are going to find common ground. My one thing that I worry is in our discussion, if we did do like a full scouting of New York comedy to find and fill in some of the places that you see the seller is lacking, I worry that when we got to a place, because you would have to be truly honest with not just what you found funny as you as a person, because that would be complete bias. You have to then be cognizant of what a crowd would find

funny and a crowd whose demographic that you you let's say you have a i disagree with josh on that but i'll let you finish but but i'm just i'm just saying there's so many things at play when you book a thing because i've i've booked like indie shows before and everything and i think that if if we came to the to the end of the end of the line we have all these names we have all these comics that are great and then we saw a disparity where there were not a ton a ton I'm not saying any I'm just saying if there weren't enough to be fair in in the in the breakdown of disabled comics I worry what the I don't I don't know what you would do in that situation. Because I feel like a lot of comedy clubs, while not being perfect by any means, a lot of them try really hard to meet as many new people as possible.

And to come to their bookings fairly and as evenly as possible between the people they already have with the new people they're trying to bring in. And I think that one thing that would actually be chaos is to just throw everyone off or fire everyone that wasn't already part of the breakdown or helped change the breakdown. Oh, I don't think everyone should be fired. I was just using that as a rhetorical device. Is it your position? By the way, my experience has been, without going into a whole long spiel about it,

that the audience doesn't actually care whether you're black, straight, gay, whatever. At least a New York audience. I can't say how they feel. And because the implication is subtly that, well, there are these funny, you know, I disagree with that. Black women of color, and they would kill here, but it's, you know, the comedy seller audience won't accept them so much.

I don't think that's the case, although I think that might— I think that plays some role. Why do you think that plays some role? I think that if the audience—if, for example, the lineup were all women, I think there would be people that would have misgivings about— I'm saying if we have Michelle Wolfe, Ali Wong— Well, you're talking about famous women. Not famous. I don't mean about their fame.

I'm saying if an audience went to the website... All these people killed before they were famous. Killed. I mean, you name the women. They destroyed before they were famous. I'm saying,

I think if an audience went to the website and found a show that was all women, they would have paused. Oh, come on. They would have paused. They would... Now, you may come on. They would have pause.

Now, you may say they have pause because they have preconceived notions, but I think some people, and I think some people that they saw in all-black audience would have pause. All-black lineup? I don't know about everybody, but I do think. You're bringing another issue where they have pause. I don't know if they would have pause. I'm saying when they sit in the crowd, they would laugh, and they would see a great show, and they would not care that they saw Greer Barnes, Chris Rock, Josh Johnson, Keith Robinson. Nobody's going to complain to me that these fucking five comics who destroyed that they were too black.

That may be. I'm saying in terms of making a reservation when they go on the website. Nobody was talking about that. Listen. I do think it plays some role. You know, it's almost. Is it your position? You can talk about whatever your beef is. Is it your position that

in a perfectly moral world, everything would break down by your demographic categories? In other words, would the NBA be only 12% black? Would pop music be only 12% black? Would Google be 12% black? Would Google be 12% black?

Would comedy be 12% black? That's when we know the world is right? I'm not talking about the NBA. I'm not talking about Google. A thing you and I have never had to experience, I don't think, is going to a comedy show and seeing an entire lineup

of comics who don't speak to or reflect our experiences. No, no, respectfully. I'm getting there. I'm getting there. No, no, respectfully, do answer my question because it matters. Because are you saying that comedy is different, that comedy for some reason ought to, if it were done right, would represent everything in its numerical order as opposed to other

things which wouldn't? And if so, why is comedy different? Isn't it possible that certain people do better at comedy or are more interested in it? Like, why when you go to the hospital, is it all Filipino nurses or black nurses? I don't know the answer to that, but I've noticed it. I think in a more equitable world, comedy lineups would indeed reflect the population better than they do now. Okay. I will actually go on record saying I think Jews are funnier than other people.

I think it's an innate thing. Thanks, Brett Stevens. I think that we're talking about the difference here is the difference between an equality and opportunity versus an equality of outcome, right? Yes. So when you talk about nurses or NBA players, look, the important thing is that there's an equality of an opportunity, right? We want everyone to be able to have the same opportunity as everyone else.

The outcome is not up to us, right? So if a lineup happens to be more white or more black or more male or more female or more disabled or more not or more conservative, that doesn't concern me. The lineup is up to us because a person determines the lineup. A human being makes those decisions. The most important factor to me and what it should be I will prescribe to you is an equality of opportunity. That's what we want. We want everyone to be able to have the same opportunities as everyone else. What we don't need to do is demand that the outcome must be the

population demographic guideline, this percentage, that percentage, this percentage, because that doesn't matter. I think it does matter because one way that racism reproduces itself is through cultural messaging that reinforces white superiority. Okay, Seth. I don't think there's any such thing as white superiority. You don't? No, I think white. I mean, if people believe there's a white superiority, if people innately believe white is better than X,

that is bullshit. That is false, right? It is false, but it is what we have been socialized to believe. What I think we're dealing with is there may be more white dollars that are disposable to be spent on comedy shows. There may be more white men who want to see white men comics, and that sucks.

There's a way to remedy that. It's not to mandate that there must be X percentage of this and X percentage of that because who determines the lines? That's subjective, right? Opportunity is important more than outcome. What you're saying is, in a certain way,

if not ridiculous, which is the word that comes to my mind, is half-baked. Because the most dominant comics in this world are black. Kevin Hart, Dave Chappelle. Chris Rock. You can go on. Trevor Noah. They dominate. And that presents a primofacia case of the opposite of what you're saying.

You have to make the point now that despite the fact that all the dominant comics are black or most of the so many of the dominant comments are black so definitely overrepresented nevertheless at the same time that all these blacks are rising to the top there is also this unconscious bias holding them back maybe maybe that's possible i mean it but it's a little ironic and on its face a little contradictory and you don't seem to have done the deep dive to explain that contradiction. In a world as you're describing, we wouldn't see Chappelle and Chris Rock and Josh Johnson and Trevor Noah and Kevin Hart and all the people that have come through here.

You're describing superstar comics. But they were working here. They were working here. They were killing here. Okay, then why is there still so much inequality in comedy club lineups? My argument, by the way, is that it has nothing to do with Gnome, or The Cellar, or comedy, or comedy

clubs, or UCB. It's more to do with societal injustice, which is very much real in my opinion, but it is not this man's fault. Society will say that if there's one field, maybe there's room for improvement, maybe there isn't, but if there's one field that is diverse,

it is comedy. I mean, you got everything here. I saw a motherfucker with no hands doing comedy on America's Got Talent. We got midgets. We got transgender. You ain't going to see this at the fucking Wall Street. Why are you talking like a... What happened?

Did you hit him in the head? Oh, my God. Amos and Andy. Comedy has, by far, of any field... You go into an office, a boardroom at Google, and you tell me what you see. You ain't going to see no lineup, no diversity

anywhere near what we have in common. I feel like Dan got possessed by Tyler Perry. That was insane. Have you been to a trading desk lately? I wish we had spent more time talking about cancel culture. Maybe we can come on again because I think that's really more the point. I think that you spent more time talking about cancel culture. Maybe we can come on again because I think that's really more the point.

I think that you're living and breathing in cancel culture. I think that for you to come at me, I mean, you know, Mike, this sounds corny, but like anybody who knows me, Googles me, you know, this comes up, dumb dwarf, to come at me when you got nothing except a conclusion.

I did the math and it must be unconscious bias. I don't need facts. I don't need research. I can come at this guy. I can libel him to the world based on simply my version of statistics

and what I've decided is true about the world. And that, you know, you should have more than that before you try to ruin somebody. You really should fucking have more than that before you try to ruin somebody. You really should fucking have more than that before you try to ruin somebody. I've said again and again,

I'm not trying to cancel you. I wrote about you because I think you have an important job. You knew it could come from what you wrote. It was a dream. You wouldn't have cared. Nobody has ever gotten canceled. No one has gotten canceled.

He doesn't mention how you thought you were the same as me. Really quick. There's two things. I'll do the first one do do i have a little bit of time yes okay so i feel very strongly about this because i've seen it in person i think that they're okay so as liberals sometimes we're not good at remembering our mistakes the mistakes of conservatives are plastered throughout history books.

You know what I mean? It's like segregation, that wasn't progressive people who looked back and like, whoopsie, we thought that segregation would be better and it wasn't, whatever. So sometimes we forget that in our endeavors to make the world better, more equitable, everything,

that we make these large mistakes where I understand and I agree that no one of power, like true, true power, fame, and means has been canceled in a way that they will not bounce back from. What I do see is that same rhetoric, that week-long attack on that famous person happening to a person without means, without power, and without money in a way that truly, truly does ruin their life. And so I think that you could almost equate it, and I'm not trying to like, they aren't the same thing, so I'm not trying to make quite the same point. But you could almost equate it to the way that a lot of white people look at police brutality, where even laid out with all the evidence, the entire video, they're like, yeah, but why was he struggling so much when they were trying to put him on the ground? And then it leads to him getting shot. And they missed the point that a person who was

maybe being arrested or maybe just being questioned ended up getting shot on the street. And that's a problem. And I think that with the quote unquote cancel culture, however you come to understand it, there's a fine line between this mob mentality that everyone sort of recovers from and yeah i said a dumb thing on twitter and everyone dragged me to a thing that actually ruins a person's life in a moment because i this is my basic example the comedy community and the storytelling community in new york is sort of close tied with the burlesque community. A lot of comedians know burlesque.

So there is a place that actually it's fitting because the place is kind of in its own way towards burlesque, the comedy cellar. Whereas burlesque people see it as if you work there a lot. What's up? The box? No, no, no. But if you work there a lot,

you're doing very well and you've made it as a burlesque dancer or whatever right i'm just i'm gonna try and make a long story very short basically during a close to halloween show the owner of that place came out and did like his little vaudeville act because he can because he owns it and he did blackface and it was insane right it was truly like what are you thinking everything right a lot of people got mad some people left a lot of people stayed uh it was very quiet people were not laughing so he was not receiving from the audience the go-ahead that this was funny which you could say is like progress in and of itself that people weren't drunk enough to be

like this is great then afterwards a lot of the burlesque dancers wanted to boycott the place, and they were telling other burlesque dancers who didn't live in the city to boycott the place, everything. There was one burlesque dancer who actually went to his house and was like, you are an idiot. Here's why you're an idiot. Because you did this thing, because you don't, it never occurred to you this was a bad idea. It gave him a full reaming and rundown on how bad blackface is what he just did what he might have done to his establishment what he might have done to his reputation as a person and then during the whole fallout of the of the we need to boycott this

place this place we need to he needs to step down as the owner which i don't know how you do i guess you just sell it the person who went to his house was like listen guys you're fully within your rights to boycott the place i totally understand it i i cannot boycott the place because i'm a full-time burlesque dancer i make money from the shows these shows pay my rent i have to keep going up at the the club like i like i have to to pay my rent i don't have another job the backlash on her was essentially you're a white supremacist you support white supremacy and so then they you know pretty much ousted her out of the group which is like fair enough facebook groups aren't the end of the world

but they also called because you know when you're a performer you post your tour dates they also called her other venues on the rest of her tour dates and told them that she was a white supremacist, that she supported white supremacy, everything. So then those places canceled on her because a lot of burlesque cabaret places are fairly progressive. You know, you have a lot of people that run in different circles that end up there. So then this person who actually did the most possible good of going to the person who did the thing wrong, telling them why they were wrong, really giving them the reaming that everyone's trying to give them via the internet,

but they can't if they don't have social, that person has essentially been run out of the city because they can't pay their rent because they can't book any shows. And that, to me, is cancel culture. That is a thing that a person without means, without power, and without money cannot come back from. You're in total denial of the thing that people have not been canceled. I know many people who are not working because of anonymous accusations against them.

I know people who are afraid to go to restaurants. My own staff, it's not canceled, I guess, but during the Louis thing, were accosted on the subways. They were afraid to wear Comedy Solo t--shirts. People were scaring them. I know... I don't want to say out loud who I know because I'm going to get in trouble for knowing them. But

I don't know how much canceling you need before someone is canceled. But you have people whose life experience is such that if they were to commit suicide, it would not surprise me based on what they're up against in terms of being afraid to walk the street, go into restaurants, have their children say who their parents are, trying to get a job. This is what people like, honestly, forgive me, this is what people like you are doing to people without really

understanding what you're doing. Were any of these people physically harmed? I have kids. Their parents certainly Google. I Google their parents. My parents' playmates, my kids' playmates Google our family. They read your article. You think that's a minor thing. It's not a minor thing.

For someone who cares so much about other people, you shouldn't think that's a minor thing just because I'm successful or whatever it is. I still have an emotional life. I still have a family life. And also, physical harm doesn't constant, like, that shouldn't be the barrier to injury. I've been, I've gotten

the cold shoulder at a kid's birthday party because somebody knew who I was based on what they read online. And you know what? If it's fair and I've done it, I'm a racist, I guess I deserve it. But you need to be fucking sure. You really need to know if I'm dumb,

if I'm racist, if I'm these things. And if you actually believe that you're like that too, if you weren't just saying that but you really believe that yeah, no, I'm like this but he's no different than me, then you have no business writing that stuff about me. Oh, I didn't say you're no that too? If you weren't just saying that, but you really believe that, yeah, Noam's like this, but he's no different than me, then you have no business writing that stuff about me. Oh, I didn't say

you're no different than me. You own the comedy cellar. I write a blog. I'm a journalist. No, no. What you're saying is that my moral failings are no different

than your moral failings. Oh, we both collude in racism. Yeah, so write about yourself. That would be an interesting article. Write about yourself how you collude in racism and use your iPhone yourself. That would be an interesting article. Write about yourself how you include in racism and use your iPhone, slave labor iPhone, to do it. I'm serious. You don't know.

It's so funny. This is just dumb stuff you're saying, and you're so mad at me for calling you dumb. Why is it dumb stuff I'm saying? It's true. There's no ethical consumption under capitalism. But I'm saying... Did I say something dumb?

I had two Jamesons join us. If we can leave this behind for a second, though. To the story that I told you, what is your response to that? I agree that there are examples of overzealotry. I don't think when we're talking about the examples in comedy that we've talked about that that's happened. But you made personal accusations about me. You didn't talk about the comedy seller. I responded to stuff you said on your podcast.

Seth, Seth, Seth. Okay, fair enough. Will you concede that dumb may not be the best adjective to describe Noam? And I've been mad at Noam and called him many, many things, but dumb would probably be the last thing that came to mind. No, I do think it's dumb to say intersectionality is just racism. I think it's dumb to say that racism, just racism. I think it's dumb to say that racism, as you said earlier,

is not a system of But if you were to say fill in the blank, gnome is blank, would dumb be an appropriate word to put in that blank? I feel I made the case in the article I wrote that the stuff you said was dumb. You disagree. As we all know...

You're missing out on a lot in life by having such a closed mind. Because when you attribute someone who's clearly not dumb, when you decide that they're dumb, you stop listening, you close your mind, and you learn.

No, no, you're not really listening. At least, you're not really listening because At least, you're not really listening because your process of listening to me is not the same as my process of listening to you. I'm actually listening to you and saying, is he right about that? Does he have a point about that?

Maybe I missed something. Maybe I get what he's trying to say. It sounds like I'm big-upping myself, but it's true. I'm trying to be extremely fair to you. I'm assuming that you're not dumb. Can we clarify one thing? No, hold on.

I'm assuming that you're not dumb, so then when you say something that to me sounds not well-reasoned, I'm trying to understand where you're coming from. Sure. Once you say that somebody is dumb, that is the end of your process of listening to what they're saying. You've gotten your answer already. It's dumb.

I don't even need to answer his points. That is what Hannah Nicole Jones did to the historians. I don't think that's true because I came on here. Is there anything that Noam has said? I'll ask Noam the same question.

And I think this might be a good way to end. Maybe it's not. Is there anything Noam has said over the course of this discussion and you have thought, you know what? That's something I didn't think of. That's something I missed. That's something that I learned. Is there anything Noam said in the course

of this discussion that would provoke that response in you? I have not been persuaded, no, but I have been listening. Okay, Noam, is there anything that Seth has said, because you listen with an open mind, as you said, given that you've been listening with an open mind, is there anything that Seth has said where you

said to yourself, you know what? This guy has a point! No, what I'll say is that I realize that this guy doesn't have knowledge of what he claims to have knowledge of, meaning that he would be right if I wasn't taking affirmative steps to make sure that people were slipping through the cracks. If I wasn't proactively worried about bias and making sure that people are not being kept out based on subconscious bias. If I wasn't asking people regularly, do you know anybody? Are we missing anybody? But you see, you've assumed all those.

It never even occurred to you to wonder whether these things go on. All you need to know is the stats. Do you think you have unconscious bias? You said earlier you didn't, but maybe I misheard. Well, I don't want to say, I know the answer I'm supposed to say is yes, I have unconscious bias, because maybe it's been proven that everybody does in some way. Although I know those studies are... Everyone must. Everyone must.

Well, except that when you are aware of an area where you might have unconscious bias, then you can proactively try to question yourself to compensate for it. So, you know, of course I must, I guess, have unconscious bias. But that doesn't mean that you're right, that therefore the fact that there's not more black women of color or whatever performing here is unconscious bias. I think that's an obtuse thing to say. You have to give me the name of a frigging comedian who kills before you can.

There's so many. Give me one name. There are so many good comedians. Give me one. I will book them. Let's see if they kill. Okay. And then if they don't kill.

There's so many, but you don't have one off the top of your head? I'm not going to name names on a podcast with that permission to name people. Nobody will be insulted by naming them that you think they're great. I don't think you... I will challenge you. I don't think you have a name in mind. I don't think you have a name. Now, you're talking about a black...

Seth, you're talking about a black comic that you have in mind? Any comic. I don't think there's a single comic he can name, white, black, trans, whatever it is, who would kill here that we passed over. I don't think there's one. And that's why I think you're unfair. Because you should have ten before you write an article like you wrote. So, because I...

I'm waiting. Do you got one? Yeah, I'm not going to tokenize people on this podcast right now for you. You don't have one. Well, Seth will email you. I don't have one. Seth will email you within... He'll come up with something, but he doesn't have one in his mind now.

Seth will email you... Write it down now, and no one will say it out loud. Write it down on a piece of paper. No one will say it out loud, but we might react in a way that... Lenny Marcus, he works here. So I did have... And I'll let you finish the thing really quick. There are two... I'm going to give you ten.

No, no, because I don't want to wait for ten. I want to just pass it around and see if anybody knows these names. Let the record show he's written three. Okay, enough, enough, enough. Let's see. Okay, he's written three. Does anybody knows these names let the record show he's written three okay enough enough enough let's see he's written three does anybody know these names okay you were you were getting to the point a little while ago and i just want to get your actual take on it yeah sorry you were talking about the overzealousness but that what i'm saying i see and maybe there's a different word for it and you know it and i don't. But what I see when I see something like what happened to the burlesque performer happen is the same thing that happens to celebrities, but it holds weight

because they're regular people and because not everyone knows the manager of the person who did the bad thing. You know any of these names? Josh is looking at the names. The handwriting could be better, but he's looking at the names. The handwriting could be better, but he's looking at the names. Oh, no, no. I know two.

You know two. And do you think they would kill the seller? We'll never say it aloud who they were. I know one, and I don't think they would kill the seller, but I think they're very funny. That's tough. I just...

But it's not clear. I can't say. I really wouldn't. So, listen, I'm going to... We can cut it out if we want to. I can't say. I really wouldn't. So, we can cut it out if we want to. I'm going to tell you that if one of these names clicked, there's only two people who know them. Everybody's in comedy. It said, oh, yeah, you should really see them. They would say it right now.

Now, I will. Now, none of these people have ever reached out to the seller. Yeah. Now, none of these people have ever reached out to the seller. And I would ask you, how would I know to reach these people when none of them ever reached out? And they're not really known by everybody. I've asked. Josh has never recommended them. Chase never recommended them. One of these people has been on The Tonight Show.

It seemed very deliberate that they put this person on The Tonight Show. We promised Seth that we wouldn't mention names I'm not mentioning names but I think that includes illusions that could reveal their identity there's one of three that I know I believe they are a talented comedic voice I don't know that they are a mainstream comedic voice

and I don't know that they would kill at this I am going to reach out to these three comedians and let's see how they do. I want to give you a more complete list. You can give me a whole list. I want you to give me another list in order of

how well you think they'll do. I'll start from the best first. And by the way, there are people that I think are funny that just are not right for this audience. I won't name the way, there are people that I think are funny that just are not right for this audience. That is fair. I agree.

That is fair. You know, I won't name the name, but there's one guy in particular who I really adore, and the last time he was here, it really did not go well. And I don't say that he's untalented, but you also have to factor in— Is that your fault or his fault or anyone's fault? No, you have to factor that in. I don't think it's really sound to say that cultural differences in comedy come out of nowhere. There are people who would not reach out and who would not want to perform here because they, as you said, don't feel as if this space is right for them because they don't feel as if it is safe for them.

Oh, come on now. Every single comic in the world who wants to become better than they are has a duty to themselves to push. Whether that means come here or come somewhere else, you need to make your own way. Comedy is not a right. It is very much a cowboy thing. I got to take one of those privileges in the debate. Not safe for them?

Where do you get your balls? You're accusing me of really serious things. What do you get your balls? You're accusing me of really serious things. What do you mean not safe? Has anybody ever been treated in a dangerous way on my premises? Ever? I think it is very sound and reasonable

to say that there are entire segments of comedy and comedians who do not feel comfortable or welcome in places like the Comedy Cellar. It's possible that these people... You use the word safe. You use the word safe.

What does safe mean? I think people feel as if they're... There are people who feel as if their identities are not welcome in traditional comedy spaces like the Cellar, which are largely white and largely male. Okay, real quick, real quick, real quick. They might feel that way.

It's certainly possible they feel that way. Real quick. I don't think that feeling is justified. Real quick. There is no way to be, if we're going to be, because I want to get to the thing

that we're trying to talk about and everything, but I do want to be fair to both of you. I do understand. No, only be fair to me. Yeah, I do understand what you're saying. But what you're saying is skewed

because everyone who has ever made a way for anyone else had to tread a path first. And it was scary for people to break color barriers in every industry. It was scary for people to basically perform in front of white audiences

before they could be with white audiences. That's a scary thing. If you're doing American Bandstand and you're outside smoking a cigarette and then everyone walking in would want to beat you up for walking in with them and they don't know why you're smoking a cigarette so close to the door,

the place that you're about to perform and they're about to cheer for you. There's a deep history in performance of having to pave a way in spite of how you feel and feeling safe and and so i understand what feeling safe though like do you mean physically safe or do you mean like comfortable culturally yes physically safe wait wait but physically safe so you're saying that people, women or women of color or black men come here and they think they're going to be sexually assaulted, physically assaulted, raped. Like, what do you mean by that? Because there are probably five people in here right now who are not comics who have probably sexually assaulted or raped someone during the course of their life.

Let him answer. Go ahead. You're referring to our dining customer. Let him answer. Hey, come on. Let him answer. Go ahead. You're referring to our dining customers. Let him answer. Hey, come on. Let him answer. Come on. What do you both say? A lot of my work is talking to comics in the early stages of their career about the challenges that they face. And indeed, there are lots of comics,

women especially, who have clubs they can't go to because, well, this abuser works there. Talking about here, the comedy cell. Also, by the way, you are not a comic, so you can't necessarily dictate what comics are feeling, right? I mean, I think every comic can report what it is. At some level, a comic is an individual

against the world, right? That's sort of like the, to me at least, the sort of, the core of every comedian is me against the world. Do you agree, Seth, with my ignored previous comment that there is probably no more diverse space in the galaxy than the comedy space? I mean, if you talk about Google, Wall Street, law firms, etc., there is no greater diversity. Doesn't mean there's not room for improvement But do you agree there's no greater More diverse place than stand-up comedy

I mean this is a big top And the show's about to begin baby I think stand-up In the different types of comedy The different genre Is the most diverse Because it has the lowest barriers to entry The facts bear out

That there is still inequality though And we have to care about that. It's our job. I do think that show business gets the brunt of accusations because it's the most visible. In other words, for example, there was a big campaign to have an Asian or a Hispanic on SNL that I'm not seeing that kind of public outcry about diversity at Cadwallader, Wickersham, and Taft, for example. I think if you pay attention to tech circles,

well, you're talking about law. In tech, I think people do care about this, and people are pushing for this. I don't really pay as much attention to law, so I can't speak to law. But the public in general seems to have an opinion. Listen, you're making a lot of very, very serious accusations. When you accuse somebody of running something that's not safe.

In fairness to Seth, he said people perceive it that way, and that's certainly possible. No, no. Don't let that mealy mouth. He endorses it. If you thought they were wrong about feeling unsafe, would you bring it up? It's so weird to be in a comedy club in 2020. You should feel unsafe. I do because people have threatened to hurt me for canceling.

Not me. You haven't. No. But it's this weird thing in celebrity right now. No one who works here, no one who works for me. No, I'm saying that I have received threats for canceling Shale Gillis. I will unfollow anybody on social media that threatens Seth.

There is a trick, a rhetorical trick where you say it, but you don't necessarily endorse it. The point is you wouldn't say it. If you had friends who felt it was unsafe here, but you thought they were ridiculous, you wouldn't repeat it. You must think that they have a rational basis for that.

Do you think they have a rational basis? I totally do. Yeah. Again, there is this whole alternative comedy ecosystem that has formed outside of clubs by people who feel unwelcome in clubs. So you think it's rational to look at a place where in 30 or 40 years, no has ever been had a finger touched them. How do you know? Well, I've known some comics in the old days in the electrical closet with some waitresses. But that was consensual.

Alright, Jesus, Dan. Trying to eject some levity. No one's ever been assaulted in any way. How do you know? No one's ever accused anybody of assaulting them in any way. Well, you have no evidence that anyone has ever been assaulted in 40 years

and you think it's still rational to say, but I believe that place is unsafe. Why do you believe it's unsafe? I just think it is. I don't just believe it is. Why do you think it's unsafe? My job is talking to comedians about working in comedy. No, and tell her, why is it unsafe here? Who would be the person

to hurt you here? And where would they go to hurt you? Me? Seth? No, anybody. We don't have, there's no private spaces here. Well, as I said, there used to be an electrical closet. All right, Dan. But, okay, so. I'll say, Dan, I know people who have walked out of a show here because of rape jokes you told, that they felt made

them unwelcome. I don't tell any rape jokes. I told, my last rape joke I told was back in the 90s, and I was reprimanded for it. I still think it was a good joke, by the way. You said physically unsafe. You didn't say mentally unsafe. And I stopped doing that particular joke. I could tell you the joke now if you want to hear it.

Is it the chemicals one from your Conan set? Which chemicals one? You put a chemical in someone's drink? We're talking chemistry. Chemistry. Let me think about that joke. That was a joke where I said, there's no chemistry.

Oh yeah, there is that joke. I haven't done that joke in about 15 years. He can't make a rape joke? Lynn Cobblins makes rape jokes. She's a woman. So there's things you're not allowed to joke about now? Wait, so that's really an interesting question. Is that what you're talking about?

But everybody that knows me knows that I... Is he feeling physically at risk or feeling... He said physically at risk. ...unwelcome because there's a rape joke. No, but that's really curious. Like, is that what you're saying? Like, that there are certain things that, like, we shouldn't tell jokes about? Oh, I'm not saying that.

We're conflating... I've conflated a couple things. One is comedians as workers feeling as if they have to avoid certain spaces because of people who they know who are abusers that work in those spaces. The other one is audiences feeling unwelcome because of rape culture.

The only thing I abuse is gnomes' tolerance. And the next thing that you were going to say? Oh, I... No, it's the two things. It's the audiences and the workers. So it's the comics feeling unsafe because there are abusers, other comics who are abusers?

Yes. But couldn't those comedians be performing anywhere? You don't really know the lineup, but when you go someplace until you get there a lot of times, especially when you're just starting out. Yes.

But are those people everywhere then? Or just the... Are which people everywhere? The abusers. Yeah. Well, then basically you shouldn't leave your fucking house. Seth, I gotta tell you, you guys can continue without me because I have to go upstairs. I'm sorry, I'm just confused. Do you think there are not, as there are in every other industry,

people who abuse their position in comedy? Of course, there's abusers in every industry. Of course, but that's not... I mean, that's not what I'm asking you about. What are you asking? I'm a woman and I just started out in comedy not that long ago. And there are probably men

who have sexually assaulted or raped women on all over the place, right? But, I mean, I don't understand how you're, like, what are you suggesting? Like, how do you mitigate that? How do we mitigate there being abusive people in comedy?

Yeah or any sure if we want to just talk about comedy like yeah and like what are sort of the lines like is it somebody who's just been accused of is it somebody who's been arrested is it somebody who's I gotta wrap it up

listen Seth you seem like a nice guy actually and I hope that after this no I hope that after this we can hang out and get to know each other a little bit. I meant what I said about embedding yourself here. Everything you're saying is wrong. No, it is.

You're talking about a place which is run in a sophisticated way that is concerned about the things that you're using. You don't keep metrics on your lineups. That's not sophisticated. I don't need to do the math. I'm quite... I could probably approximate off the top of my head what those metrics were. Could you, as an exercise, do it right now?

I would say... Black males are about 20% of our... 20 to 25% of our group. I'd say women are about I would say 10%. No, no. Women? No. Women are more like 22%.

And the rest are, I guess the rest are, we have a lot now of Indians and Asians or whatever it is. I don't know. Maybe that adds up to 7 to 10%. And the rest are, we have a lot now of Indians and Asians or whatever it is. I don't know. Maybe that adds up to 7% to 10%. And the rest would be white males. He deems are the metrics you need to account for.

No, but I'm saying, if you have to ask, was I way off? You don't know. That seems right. And you want there to be more. Does that seem right? Yeah. Okay. So, I mean, I am aware of who.

Outwardly gay. I mean. How close was I? out of the closet out of the closet gay i would suggest is out of the closet oh yeah we have i don't know if you're gay gay counts as white male does gay count as black does trans count as again we're dealing with a limited set of yeah yeah but but the point is this we're every every accusation you've made you've made based essentially on profiling there's there's no there's no actually no fact this this was unsafe because this happened you passed over this person

even though they were trying to get you there's no and i and i think that's what i would i would like you to leave thinking about the idea of making accusations publicly about somebody um without the feeling of responsibility to at least have some actual facts other than, and this will go full circle, other than the fact that there are white male in charge of a place, therefore it must be true. In the end, that's what you're saying.

I want to be very clear that what I was saying earlier is not that there are X, Y, and Z abusers present at the comedy cellar. What I was saying is that part of being, say, a woman in comedy is knowing that you cannot go to X, Y, and Z spaces. Yeah, but I'm only concerned about your accusation against me. Well, I think you should be concerned about more because other comedy clubs look to the cellar as a standard.

Right, and if they emulate us, they will not be having unsafe environments where they are. But I'm concerned about every unsafe environment in a way, whether it's next door at the falafel place or whatever it is. Here, I'll rephrase. At the diner, but I don't have a special interest in comedy clubs. You've said before that what you think needs to happen in the Me Too movement is for women to feel more comfortable coming forward. Yes. Do you think

that perhaps one thing that might help people be more comfortable coming forward is if the owners of comedy clubs are not so indignant when they are accused of perhaps acting recklessly or too quickly in letting people like Louis C.K. back to the stage. No.

I was with you until you said the end. I don't think that people are uncomfortable coming forward because of Louis C.K., but I do think that you're right that a good boss, if he's really well-intended, has to understand that making people feel comfortable about coming forward is an ongoing problem, and it's not enough just to put it in a manual

or whatever it is. And the other side of that is what you've heard me talk about, I've discovered, is that some of it is also just inherent in the, it seems to me that people just don't, are embarrassed and shy to come forward about things which are intimate and traumatic. And I think that it's hard to overcome that. We had an incident recently with something where I got wind of something that didn't happen here, but just involved people I knew. And I tried very hard just to get the people involved to talk to me about it, and they refused.

Like, well, how can I possibly follow up on this if I can't even, like, I could only hear about it in rumors? That's interesting. I mean, and I think part of the answer there is because people might not feel as if you're on their side, and they might feel as if you won't have their back. I don't know the answer. I'm telling you how workplace dynamics work. Okay. The other part is I don't understand why you don't care about what happens in other comedy

clubs where the comics who are here work, too. Oh, I care about the people who work for me, of course. What I'm saying is I don't have a... I have an interest in every... I have an interest in humanity. I want everybody to work and get what... and be treated properly. I don't have a special interest in how Gotham treats their waitresses

as opposed to how the Washington Square Diner treats their waitresses. That's what I'm saying. Because I'm in the same business as them. Like, to me, we're all in the restaurant business. Like, they have musicians, we have comedians, they sell.

It's like, we're just serving customers. You guys put this whole, like, this layer on top of it like we're in the arts or something. Oh, yeah. I'm trying to build solidarity among workers.

But I'm saying, like, I present comedy. Before that, I presented music. And up here, we just serve food. Yeah. But my employees need to be treated properly, whether I'm presenting comedy, whether I'm

presenting music, or whether I'm selling food. I don't think I have a special obligation to the places where comedy is being presented. Does that make sense? I think they all need to be right. I don't care how Gotham is as opposed to how Google is. I don't. I do care about people I know personally. I don't think you have an obligation, but I think if you

did, it would make a difference. Listen, I don't have time to spend with my children that I need to. How much are you laying on me? I run my place. Does it say anything to you that when the louis ck thing happened i was out there in public like just people were accusing me of all

sorts of stuff i went on interview after inter interview after interview did you stop and think boy this guy has balls to think that he doesn't have a single skeleton in his closet over 30 years that he can go public so brazenly without somebody dropping a dime or tweeting something that he doesn't have a single skeleton in his closet over 30 years that he can go public so brazenly without somebody dropping a dime or tweeting something that he did or happened at his place. I'm saying I had a lot of confidence that I was clean over 30 years because I do a very thorough job running my place. Never occurred to you. A lot of places would have just shut up because I'm not going to say anything because I know that my manager did this or I know that I looked the other way this or I did

this or I harassed that waitress. I mean, it should say something to you that I had no qualms about putting my head on that guillotine feeling that the guillotine would not drop. I'll say again that I'm here because you struck me as a person who would listen.

Well, you write that. That would have been nice of you to write. Listen, I don't want you to think I'm cutting you off because this is the longest show we ever did. By the way, Seth reminds me just a bit of Mike Kaplan. I get a very Mike Kaplan. I was hoping Mike might be the comic guest. Well, we can't have two of the same people, though. I thought about Mike, but I knew we were going to talk about race,

and I wanted to make sure Josh was my first choice because I knew that if – but this is exactly my point. He and I might say the exact same thing, but when he says it, this is really the point. When he says it, you have to listen. Because it's coming out of black skin. When I say it... Didn't you yell at Perry once for saying that people should listen to Chloe Hilliard? I don't know what you're referring to.

But I'm making an important point here. I know that he and I think alike about some things and disagree about other things. But I know to the degree that we agree on something, I want him to make the point because I know then you'll have to respond to it on its merits. And I knew coming into this that if I made the point, I was talking to a wall because I'm white.

And you don't think that's racism. You actually think that makes sense. But it doesn't. You should be able to read words on a page and estimate whether it makes sense or not. You should not need to know who wrote it. Shouldn't. We would like to.

Oh, this is just real quick last thing. And this is specifically, I know we didn't get to, we can maybe talk after this is over or whatever. We should all hang out and drink more Jameson. Stop interrupting. I'm just saying food is half off for our podcast. So one thing that I don't know if you know, or maybe it doesn't bother you because some of the people that see things this way are people that you're not necessarily concerned with.

But there is a lot of just you as a persona, whether it's Twitter or a writer journalist whatever it is is seen as um trying to make comedy better specifically by tearing people or institutions down that you deem um inefficient or or wrong or racist, or whatever, etc. And I personally come from a place where I see a lot of the things that some of your friends see. And with respect to whoever you may be friends with, especially when you talk to people when they're starting out their career, there are a lot of things that seem scary that when you finally do them, they are not.

I know that a lot of white comics are scared to go to black rooms, especially when they're starting out. Guilty as charged. Maybe not just because of some inherent white bias, but also because black audiences among comedians in total are seen as very hard audiences, but once you win them over, they stand, they cheer, they'll run out the room if you kill hard enough. It's an amazing feeling, but people are scared to do it. So just because someone is feeling fearful of something that is potentially a projection i don't

know what your friends told you and i don't know all of your friends but i will ask you because i come from a place where you don't necessarily complain about the bad things by complaining about the bad things alone you complain about bad things by replacing them with good things so i believe that you complain about bad comedy by replacing it with comedy that you deem is great you know um and it's also something you've pretty much suggested book people who are more this what so i would ask you what do you feel just as seth in the world as you move as you write as you think what is it that you feel like you were doing that is the good thing for comedy that is also positive in a way that is different than the things that are more

wholly seen as negative like as in the write-ups as in the the quote-unquote canceling I know you have your feelings about it. We have our feelings about it, whatever. For every Shane Gillis, there is a person who is really great and trying to make it. Do you feel like you're doing enough on your own to help a person that you deem is great that is trying to make it

just as much as you're trying to call out potential predators or people that you deem as unsafe? I appreciate the question, and this is a whole other discussion that I guess I could talk about forever. There is my consistent thing that I feel as if I've been writing about longer than anything else is trying to get comedians paid for the work they do. That's why I write about UCB. That's why I have been advocating for a long time for fair pay in comedy communities. When it comes to... Maybe this guy makes some sense.

Now you're talking. I mean, a lot of coverage of the entertainment industry today revolves around promotion. A lot of the publications that cover comedy are extensions of PR, as I see them. They promote this or that special. They do an interview about this or that TV show. They recap SNL. And that's it. I think for years what has gone undercover is the forces that put the comedy that we all get and love in front of us on TV or on the internet or on Twitter or what have you, and those forces are often deeply inequitable

and run by fucked up people. I'm not talking about you, Noam. I'm talking about Lorne Michaels. Lorne Michaels. And I don't think there is a lot of attention paid to that, and sort of one of my goals, yes, is to shine more of a spotlight on the institutions that put comedy in front of people and how those institutions indeed leave out a lot of good comedy. Are you a journalist?

Yes. Okay, so are you familiar with all the journalistic ethics? I am an advocacy journalist. I write from an ideological perspective. That's fine. But one of the ethics of journalism, and I've done some research into it for other reasons, is that when you write about somebody,

you're supposed to contact them and give them a chance to respond. I accept this criticism. I should have reached out to you. And that's part of why I came here. Listen, you're an extremely stand-up guy for coming here. Listen, I hope this criticism. I should have reached out to you. And that's part of why I came here. Listen, you're a stand-up, you're an extremely stand-up guy for coming here. Listen, I hope this is

the beginning of a friendship. I think that you're different than me, but I kind of like relish having a friend like you who will, you know, push back on me and stuff and, you know, and keep me honest in a way.

I want to state again, I thought you were worth engaging with. That's why I came. We'll let the record show we're shaking hands. But I think that when you're written about, it's very frustrating to not have been contacted

to have a chance to say your piece. And it's only fair. And I think that it would cause a lot less bad feelings. The truth is, I said about you, I said, you didn't actually quote me. You quoted me pretty fairly. You didn't just cherry pick a couple sentences. You quoted me at length. I've taken feedback I've received from you. Yeah. And I thought that was pretty good of you. There was one part I thought you weren't quite fair with me, and I didn't think it was intentional, actually. I thought you weren't as totally into

my thought process as I am, so you probably didn, actually. I thought you weren't as totally into my thought process as I am, so you probably didn't understand what I thought would have been important to say. But I thought that you were fair-minded for the most part. However, you should have contacted me to speak to me. And, yeah, there's all kinds of other stuff. Well, you should come on another show, or we'll do another show, because this was a very Dwarven-centric podcast, which you didn't need to be because you have so many other things that you could talk about.

And you are known by all the comedians. You are getting through. I had a lot of emails. You have that guy Seth Simons on. I hope you tear him a new asshole. But I hope that you had a pleasant experience. And are you going to hang out some more tonight? I'll hang out.

So hang out because I have to go upstairs and do something, and then I'll come back down. Yes, Josh? Real quick, last thing. Were you done with your because you were saying about your journalistic endeavor and my I don't know how much time we have left. I guess the whole reason I asked the question is because

one of the things, just from the perspective of the audience that reads your work, the comedians who are tangentially involved with your work because it's their friend you write about, whatever. I understand that you are doing these separate things that aren't getting as much publicity

as the big ones. Okay, no I'm asked to leave. Oh yeah, and this is the last thing. I guess I would just either challenge you or ask you if you would consider, for every one of the articles that you write about

the problems about an institution or a person... I'm hearing you, but my mic has been... No, his mic is out. We need some technical... I think his mic fell out. I think you pulled his mic out when you left. Okay, you know what?

Oh, okay. Michael, we have no one here. Could you real quickly respond to that? Yeah. Okay, we're back. That's basically all I'm saying is that I would challenge you and see if you would consider for every one of those articles that you write, maybe writing about two that are about the labor, the pay.

I would say I think I do. You do? I mean, I think a lot of people know me as the person who posted a video of Shane Gillis saying racial slurs. But before I did that, I have been for a very long time the person who was writing about mismanagement and labor law violations at UCB. And I believe you. I'm just saying that since then, and maybe it's because I'm not necessarily reading your work as it comes out, and I'm more hearing about you in the ether, and maybe people have a bias against you. I'm just saying that I would flood, if I were you, this is what I try to do with comedy.

For every joke that I have that is a bit either touchy or plays with a line, I try to have several, several, several jokes that remind the audience that, A, I'm not a monster, and B, we're here to have a good time together. And I think that some of the work, which might be frustrating for you, some of the work that you've done has now been overshadowed

by the work that you're currently doing. I hear and will consider the feedback. I don't... I have not much sympathy for people who think that it is a bad thing to write about comedians who got hired on SNL saying racial slur after racial slur. Oh, no, I don't mean Shane alone. I guess I'm saying in the scope of what someone would perceive you as, as a journalist,

the really, if they're a comedian who hasn't read your work, the only things that they would know of are Shane, Louie and the seller. And I understand that you feel the way you feel about Shane, Louie and the seller, but in that, in that scope is not a lot of here's how to fix comedy through positivity.

Yeah, that's interesting. I think if we are going to go in and divide up by subject matter, the work that I've done, very little of it is about Louis or Dave Becky, or even the Louis stuff is more focused on Dave Becky than it is about everything else. But it is those few things, I think, that have gotten more airplay about everything else. But it is those few things, I think, that have gotten more airplay than everything else. And that is part of me being an unemployed journalist

who writes mostly via a newsletter and then on Twitter. And the Twitter things get seen more than the newsletter or my freelance work. Sure. But I would make the argument that the things that I have published make a proactive case for improving the comedy industry.

Well, check out Seth's articles on both improving the comedy industry and calling Gnome an idiot. And Lord knows I've done that myself. But, of course, I know him and he knows I'm just kidding, sort of. Anyway, thank you Seth Simons with an S.

Thank you, Dan, yes. And you can find him at... I'm on Twitter at sasimons and at sethsimons.substack.com for the aforementioned journalistic work. And I would please none of our fans be hostile to Seth. He came here and we're happy that he did.

He didn't convince Noam and I don't think he convinced me, but we leave on good terms. Thank you, Josh Johnson. Oh, yeah. Thanks for having me. For a regular here, and always the voice of calm, the voice of his rich timber always adds a certain authority to our podcast. Perry L. Ashton Brand is here.

You can follow us on at live from the table. And a very special treat, Jason Sbarro from the pizza chain. Also known as not Sbarro. I have nothing to do with Sbarro pizza. My name is Jason Sbarro. You can follow me at Sbarro or check out SiriusXM. And I didn't say my handle.

I'm at Josh Johnson Comedy or at Josh Johnson for Twitter. And a happy belated new year to one and all. We will see you next time. Happy New Year. Good night.