The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Jonathan Randall

Episode Date: January 6, 2023

Jonathan Randall is a comedian, actor and writer. His television appearances include Comedy Central, ABC and MTV. He hosts the podcast, American Jew. In this epsiode, Noam elucidates the history and the importance of the state of Israel. 

This is Live from the Table, a Comedy Cellar-affiliated podcast coming at you on SiriusXM 99 Raw Dog and the Laugh Button Podcast Network. This is Dan Natterman coming at you with Noam Dorman, owner of the world-famous Comedy Cellar. We have Perrie Lashenbrand here. She does what she does, and she's been defined as a producer. She's been defined as a booker. Present. Okay. That was not her. We also have behind the scenes our wizard, our audio and video wizard.

Nicole Lyons is with us. She doesn't say a lot. And when she does, she's usually hard to read. We also have with us Jonathan Randall. Jonathan Randall, he's a comedian. He's an actor. He's a writer. He lives in New York. Heall, he's a comedian. He's an actor. He's a writer. He lives in New York.

He's performed all over the place. He's been in commercials. His grandmother recently turned 99. Wow. She had to get the grandmother on. And he wrote her a heartfelt birthday card. That's one of his writing credits. Let's hear it.

I don't know if he knows it. He has it memorized. Oh, I thought you were looking at it. Okay, sorry. No, it's actually just a joke part of my bio. My grandma actually recently just turned 100. I need to update that. Did she really?

Is she still walking around? She is still walking around. Is she still coherent? She's still coherent. How coherent? That's amazing. Totally have a conversation with you, no problem. Wow.

Yeah, that's pretty incredible. Yeah, we should get her. She can still be racist. She can still be anti the liberal agenda. All of it. No problem. Where does she live? That is coherent.

She lives in Boca Raton with all of our people. With our old Jews. Jonathan also hosts a podcast with our, well, he's my friend anyway. Right? Jordan Ferber. Jordan Ferber. American Jew. What's his name?

Jordan Ferber. He looks like Fisher Stevens. I don't know who that is. yeah, American Jew. American Jew. What's his name? Jordan Ferber. He looks like Fisher Stevens. I don't know who that is. Okay, go ahead. And of late, Jonathan has taken up the Palestinian cause with, I would say, with a great vigor. And more and more Jews, I suppose, are doing that. But we'll talk about that in a bit. First, I do have a couple

of housekeeping questions for Noam. We'd like to start with just some... Oh, and also, Jonathan brought some champagne for us. No guest has ever

brought us a gift. Well, Happy New Year. I'm so thrilled to be on the show. This is the first episode of 2023. Jonathan is our first guest of 2023, so...

And Jonathan brought us some champagne. Can I open the champagne now? You can certainly do that. No one's ever brought us a gift. It's usually a promotional gift, like their own book or something. You didn't introduce Noam.

I think I did. I think he said he was the owner. He needs no introduction, but he's the owner of the comedy. But you did. You did. Noam, I noticed that on the website for Vegas, for the Vegas room, I'm going to be there in February, by the way. Some of the shows have, typically they have four comedians.

Some of the shows lately have had five. Is there any reason for that? Plus the emcee. So Mark Cohen and then five other comedians instead of four. I don't know if that means anything. From time to time, if somebody is going to be in town unexpectedly, someone as good will add a comedian or something, just because it's better to make the show better.

Okay, so there's no policy change. It's just that somebody happened to be in town or what have you. Yeah, no policy change. Just whatever. It's probably opt for more comedians in town or what have you. Yeah, no policy change. Just, you know, whatever. It's probably, you know, opt for more comedians because... Do you think more is better? Do I think more is better? It depends on who the acts are.

I generally think rule of thumb is that shorter spots are better. I mean, like, but you know how I am. I told you, like, I've never been to a Broadway show that at intermission, I wasn't like, I just wish it was over now. Like, I never, like, I can know how I am. I told you, like, I'd never been to a Broadway show that at intermission, I wasn't like, I just wish it was over now. Like, I never, like, I can't wait for the second act.

Even if the second act is good, I'm always, it's always longer than I wish it would be, so. But shorter acts, but more acts, I mean, the show is the same length. I'm just saying in general, the law of diminishing enchantment kicks in. You've seen somebody for 10, 15 minutes is enough. Usually, usually.

Unless they're really doing something magical. So if you have, if you add another. You did that on purpose. Let the audience know that. It's okay, Nicole. It's okay that the champagne overflowed a bit. Not COVID, by the way. I just have a little cough.

Probably later. All right, cool. I'm not afraid of COVID anyways. So you're saying unless they're doing something magical, you think less is typically more. Yeah, less is usually more. You don't agree? Probably.

But at the same time, some comics... comics well if you're watching somebody's hour long special somebody you know how often you're not wishing it would be over well I'm a comic not because you're a comic you're entertaining like anybody else

well I don't know but I think with regard to comedy some comics it might take longer for you to get into their rhythm. Is it supposed to be? And other comics, you know, but in general, I think variety being the spice of life. It's not how you pour champagne. Okay, you do it peri-o. It's not man's work.

Anyway. Wow. You're going to get sexist with it. What did you say, Noam? But what did you say about the champagne? Said it's not what? Pouring champagne? Well, obviously I was doing it wrong.

I said it's not man's work. It was just a dumb joke. Calm down, everybody. Cut that out, Nicole. I don't want to get canceled. No, I want that to be the clip. John Randall. That's great, yeah.

John Randall, by the way, is a fine comic. I don't know if you've ever seen him, though. No, I haven't seen him. But might he send you a clip? Of course. You don't need my permission.

Here, Jonathan, I'm not sure if you're interested in working here or not. Of course I'm interested in working in the best comedy. I have a big beef with my whole organization about this because,

so for instance, this guy Tyler Fisher, you know, who's on the show last week. Yeah, yeah, but he's been playing all over town forever, right? I didn't know about him. Nobody in my organization scanned him out. He didn't submit a thing, and I

heard about him through like the most roundabout way from this woman I know, and she wanted me to see this guy and I'm going to bring him down to meet you and I didn't want to insult her so I agreed to meet him and he sent me a tape and it turns out he's doing very very well

so who else is out there? Maybe Mr. Randall here. Who else is out there who's great that I don't know about? And it's like as I said to somebody do you think the New York Yankees don't know about. And it's like, as I said to somebody, do you think the New York Yankees don't know every single person, you know, in the minors and exactly how good they are?

It's crazy that we don't know. Well, who's in charge of that? I am, Dan. Well, Tyler's been funny about that. I think he actually did like audition once before over here, or at least for like Liz, he auditioned. I don't know. I'd never heard of him before.

But yeah, he's amazing. I've done a bunch of videos with him. And someone else. I mean, you can just look at the other clubs' websites, know them and see who's on. And if there's a name that you're unfamiliar with, just, you know. Yes, exactly right. Or delegate those duties to whomever just, you know. Yes, exactly right. Or delegate those duties to whomever might

do that. In any case, so when you say, can he send you a clip? Of course he can send me a clip. I need the comics more than the comics need to work at the club. And yet the other clubs don't seem to operate on that principle. Well, it speaks for itself. I'm serious.

It's like, I need the, we do our business by presenting the best comedians, right? So how do I not need the best comedians? I could probably give you a list of five comedians that you've never heard of that are. I don't need your politically correct, woke, affirmative action list of comedians. All right. Keep taking years to find them then. No, I'm kidding. Absolutely.

No, now forget it. I'm not going to send them to you. You know I'm kidding. What, that you don't think my political inclinations are woke bullshit? It's not the political inclinations are woke. I was just being a little outrageous. But I sometimes

think that maybe you're too snobby. There's a word for it. Wow. Did you meet two of them at a Black Lives Matter protest and the other ones at a Me Too one? You don't understand how pedestrian I am about this stuff. No, I do, actually. I understand very well. Why am about this stuff. I just. No, I do actually.

I understand. No, why don't you just put like a laugh meter in the room and like a little seismograph machine and then whoever gets, makes the most noise. That's who you, that's who you. It's almost that simple. It's not quite that simple. No, that's not true. You've told me about people that you fought for who have proved to be just, you know,

the best of the best, brilliant, hilarious, that are some of your personal favorites that in the beginning, everybody else was like, I don't think so. If the comedian is going for laughs, like punchline to show, you know, laugh, then an applause meter or a laugh meter would probably work better than the typical human who reports to me, who gets sucked up in personal relationships and their idea of what's funny and blah, blah, blah. But not every comedian succeeds just on punchline laughs. Some comedians succeed by being interesting.

Yes, but that's harder to measure. And that's right. That's exactly my point. So that's not easily measurable. Unless they're already famous and then you let them do what they want. Yeah. So you have to be in the room and kind of be emotionally sensitive to what's going on in the room and how people are really taking it in. But other than that, yeah. My father used to say, you don't even need to speak the language to know who the funny comedians are.

It's funny. Jonathan, what do you think of that? Are you disgusted by this ad? No, I think you can't just judge a comedian by the amounts of laughs because I've seen some, like, hacky, horrible comics absolutely tear up a room, and comics that I feel are more brilliant and are actually saying something that don't do as well.

But still, I... But from a business owner's point of view, which I agree with, but from a business owner's point of view, he's agree with, but from a business owner's point of view, he's happy with what you might regard as a hack, I suppose. No, I don't think so. Are you? Are you? I don't think so.

I think you actually, in spite of yourself, have a very keen... I don't think the audience, to be honest, I don't think the audience doesn't embrace hacks that easily. I think there are a lot of people who are called hacks. Natterman got called a hack one time. One time by the owners of the stand. The good people of the stand.

Right. But that's an important point because this is what the experts, the experts who understand. No, Natterman's a hack. But this is, my point being that this term hack gets thrown around very loosely, like very loosely. So I don't know what someone's definition of a hack is. If it applies to anyone, though, it seems like Dan's the last person. No, that's my point. And somebody like Frankie Pace, who used to do,

who was a very gifted prop act, who was the first comedian on SNL, which shows you, you know, Lorne Michaels held him in high regard. The comedians used to call him a hack no end until he stopped using his props and just became an ordinary comedian. But he was just a gifted physical comic.

Unbelievable. He used to destroy. You had the laughs would shake the building because he was so funny. And I enjoyed it no end. And my friends enjoyed it. And my father enjoyed it. So something you tell me is a hack,

I don't give a shit. Right. Like, you know, I thought it was really funny. So, you know, whatever. I think Natterin's really funny. Do I care if somebody called is a hack, I don't give a shit. Right. Like, you know, I thought it was really funny. So, you know, whatever. I think Natterman's really funny. Do I care that somebody called him a hack? But it is really worth considering that somebody as important in the industry,

as it were, as the owners of, you know, one of the best clubs in the country, would use that term so loosely. So, you know, you have to be very careful when you hear that. What did you do, Dan? Did you, like, persevere with them? At the time, I didn't give a shit. It was that cringe humor. But Robert Kelly organized a summit meeting with me and Pat Milligan, and, like, I think we recorded it for, like, a podcast

back in the days when podcasts were audio only, and we discussed it. There really was nothing to discuss. He's entitled his opinion. I strongly disagree with it. And anyway, I've, I don't work to stand very often. Uh,

they're not, they don't, they've never embraced me, um, for whatever reason, but that's fine. Um, they might,

they might still consider me that I just don't care. You know, if you're Robert Kelly made a big deal of it, Dan, you got to talk to Patrick Milligan. They're calling you. I was like, well, talk to Patrick Milligan. No matter who you are, someone's going to not like you. Did you see Zarn?

It got some vicious hate. And she gets a lot of it, actually. From what? Just a comment on TikTok or Instagram saying how she's not funny. She's got a funny accent. That's the only reason anybody cares.

Whatever. But like, you know, and she posted it, you know, and said, oh, you know. But aren't the haters part of being successful? That's what I'm saying.

If you're not, you haven't succeeded unless you have, I don't have enough haters. I need more, quite honestly. Right. If you're not pissing somebody off, you're not doing something right.

And speaking of pissing people off, I guess it's as good a segue as any. Is that all we're going to talk about? We're talking about, now we're not pissing somebody off, you're not doing something right. And speaking of pissing people off, I guess that's as good a segue as any. Is that all we're going to talk about? Now we're going to talk about John Randall's... Israel again, Dan. Well, that's a major reason I brought him on. Okay. And you said, yeah.

Because I don't veto guests. No, but you seem excited about having him on for that reason. He just wants to make you happy. Go ahead. All right. He hates Israel. I don't hate Israel. I do not hate Israel.

First of all, let me just say. I hate some of Israel's actions. Let me just say. You're a Jew, right? I'm a Jew. I grew up Orthodox. Let me just say, John Randall. You grew up Orthodox?

Yeah. That might be part of the problem. He's traumatized. I mean, I see a lot of that happens all the time. A Holocaust surviving kids, they often, they're not right in the head, so right away. But there's a theory that trauma can be passed on genetically. Well, whether it's genetic or the environment. Is it called epigenetics or something like that?

Well, I don't know about that, but it can certainly be passed on in terms of nutty people. You know, they're in the environment. How orthodox did you grow up? Like modern orthodox. Where? You know, in Miami Beach, Florida. Anyway, I just want to put your mind at ease. Noam does not, if Noam doesn't use you here, it's because he doesn't think you're funny,

not because of your politics. Okay. Oh, I don't care about that. Noam, in fact, No, almost prefers to have people work here that he can argue with because he enjoys it so. So feel free to voice your...

If you don't get work, if you send me your tape and I don't use you, it's because I think you're a hack. Okay, well, good to know. At least I'm in good company. But I noticed Jonathan Randall because I'm on TikTok, which is a new thing for me in 22.

I'll send your tape to SD and Liz. This is the most fucked up job interview I've ever seen. I appreciate that. It's not an interview because it all rides on the fucking tape. And I've said this before, but someday we'll explain to our children,

do you know why they call it tape? Do you know they literally used to be like, what? I think you can explain that even to a Generation Z person. A 22-year-old probably doesn't know that. There still is some tape out there. I don't know. Nicole Lyons,

have you seen actual tape? I don't know if I have. I'm also the last year of millennials for the record I thought you were Gen Z Nope, 96 is millennial Wow In any event, at some point it's like one of those words when we learn about

why something in the 1700s was called something like, oh is that, wow, that's so interesting Go ahead Send me your tape Also, rewind, do that, wow, that's so interesting. Go ahead. Send me your tape. I will. Well, also rewind. Do we still say rewind?

Yeah. So rewind because you actually wound it. It was wound. Yeah. With a pencil, remember? So now when we rewind something, it has nothing to do with winding, but we still say rewind.

So what do you think, backtrack? Well, backtrack's another, I guess. I don't know where the etymology is of that. Unstream it. Jonathan Randall has taken up the cause. Speaking of forgetting these things, you know. Okay, we'll get to that. Tell us why you don't care about the Holocaust anymore. It wasn't real.

All right, I had a lecture with Mel Gibson's father, and it totally opened my eyes. Let me let me just say how this started is I saw Jonathan on TikTok. From you've got one hundred thousand followers on TikTok, by the way. Yeah. How many of the huge market for self-hating? How many of how many of those? That's my handle at self-hating. How many of those would you attribute to your position on israel palestine 65 000 to 70 oh wow so in other words even if noam convinces you that maybe you're wrong you can't possibly admit it no you can't you're in it for the i post videos all the time calling out you know terrorist acts on israelis

and all lose you know a couple thousand followers every time we do it. But like who gives a shit? It's just a number. You know, it's just like I'm not in it just to get followers. Like I'm trying to like say something and make the world a better place. Yeah, I think Netanyahu follows you and I think is going to be very influenced by some hack Jewish comedian. It's Marvin Gavir. It's a big, big fan. Anyway, you saw I don't know how we should start. Should we start with the movie Farha that he recently promoted on his Chick Todd? Sure. Farha, Tantura is another documentary.

I read a review of Tantura by Benny Morris, and he said it's all bullshit. But I don't know, but I would be very reluctant to contradict the man who exposed literally the Israeli massacres and uncovered them and took the beatings that he did for spelling them out to the world. He said that this movie, Tantora, is not reliable at all. That's what he said. I mean, it has testimonies from... You can read his review. I'll have to check out his review. But Noam, you would agree

that Massacre is likely and maybe... Oh no, this is not in question that there was 600, 700, something like that people killed in Massacre. This is not... Everybody knows 600, 700, something like that, people killed in, you know, massacres. You know, absolutely.

This is not – everybody knows this. I've never – I don't think everybody does know it, though. But, like, it is – It's not a dispute. Plenty of Israeli historians have, like, said that these massacres happened, but there is a lot of covering up, and especially just, you know, I know the way I was brought up, there's a story of, you know, how Israel was created and it kind

of leaves out a lot of the parts of, you know, the Palestinian people really getting fucked. There was, well, that's another matter, but yeah, there was, um, uh, there was a time when we never heard about these things, but since for the last 30 years, I'd say, this is no longer in dispute by people who were informed about the history of Israel. I haven't met anybody who denies that. What's Jonathan's position, though, just for some context of what's going on here? My position is for a peaceful coexistence between Israel and Palestine. I want a two-state solution, but I believe that there needs to be some more accountability, acknowledgement on the Jewish side.

And I do feel a little more compelled to call out the human rights abuses from Israel because they are my people and a lot of them do kind of like use Judaism hide behind anti-Semitism and I think it hurts us more than it helps us but will you acknowledge that probably my guess is 90% of the people that are your fans for this on TikTok don't want a two-state solution. I wouldn't say that many, but definitely there are a large number. But there's a reason they don't want it because of the actions that keep happening, because of all the denying. I think that maybe – it's amazing how many comments I get, how many DMs I get where people be like be like you're jew there are jews out there in the world like you like we had no idea like oh my gosh it's totally changed my perspectives oh there's something different between being jewish and being like a strong zionist or whatever and like oh or people being like oh my gosh i live

in israel and i don't want to go to the army i don't know what to do i don't feel like i have a voice thank you for like making these videos and And I feel like there are things that need to be said that aren't said. And people just have, especially a lot of Muslim people, a lot of Palestinian people, they just have one perception of Jews, which is people coming into their homes or homes of family or relatives and kicking them out or abusing them or kids they know getting killed and all these things that that's all they know is trauma from Israel. Look, I, uh, we, I mean, we could probably start the story from the beginning from the 19, 1890s or 1910, 1920, whatever. But, um, and I'm not somebody who feels that you should hold your tongue.

Some people say, not in front of the goyim. And this is how the black community feels this way. Don't say these things in front of white people. Don't say these things in front of non-Jews. I don't believe that at all. You should be able to say whatever is true. Having said that, to make your cause to focus

to make common cause with the people who do hate Israel and hate Jews and have always regardless of whether or not there's a human rights violation, is something I think is very tricky and something you should really think about very carefully because

and how you do it. You should never be put in a position of denying something that's true or becoming a hypocrite. However, it is worth rehearsing to people who have no idea, I assume you do, but maybe you don't know, how it is that Israel finds itself in this situation. Because at some point, when you have a situation

of war and murder and occupation, the indictment has to be compared to what can be expected from the human race. And in my opinion, comparatively to almost any similar conflict you could possibly name, Israel's record is three times, ten times as good as any other country in a similar situation. What we're seeing now in Russia, you know, imagine Ukraine beats back the Russians after being attacked. And then the world demands that Ukraine give back the territory that they were attacked from. That wouldn't happen, you know.

So, you know, in any war. Get back. What about not pushing forward anymore? What about getting mad at them for continuing to push forward? Yeah. Well, yeah, I don't think they should push forward. But, I mean, Israel still is. But is that the heart of the matter here? So how is it that they came to have the 1948 borders?

I mean, you know, the... It's a simple answer. It's a long... Well, the Arab population wasn't happy with the UN. UN partitioned. The UN is something we all... Right, the UN partitioned. When it's convenient, we point to the UN.

UN resolutions violated... UN partitioned this land, just like India and Pakistan were partitioned, just like many other countries were partitioned. They partitioned the land because the Arabs weren't happy about the Jews there at all. And immediately every Arab nation attacked, right? Yeah, I mean, I think there was a little bit more to it. They wanted, you know, there was different options for the land.

And, you know, Theodor Herzl really wanted... No, no, after the UN set borders that could have been the end of the whole matter that could have been the end of the whole matter and it wasn't the Jews who rejected it it was the Arabs who rejected it and then there was attacks and this is why it's important

and in those attacks and by the way some of the people who were in these in the Jewish defense at the time had just gotten out of concentration camps. Benny Morris writes about this too. So the psychology is not good for super humanitarian soldiering. But in this tit for tat,

after being attacked, facing another Holocaust, that's not an exaggeration, facing another Holocaust, years, a few years, this is 1948, Second World War ended in 1945. These very same people now are facing another annihilation. And in that attack, which this is not Jewish attack, some atrocities occurred. So yes, there's no excuse for atrocities.

Maybe bombing Hiroshima was an atrocity. Maybe you believe that. But to start the story at Hiroshima or to start the story at the atrocities is dishonest in a way. You have to start the story at the attacks. Yeah, but can't you acknowledge the

atrocities as well? Of course you should. Of course you should. Can't you maybe like, you know, we like in America, we're doing that now where like things like Thanksgiving are changing. Of course you should. But we're not doing that. You're not going to get any argument from me about whether to acknowledge it. But acknowledging it is usually part of some sort of political argument as well.

So I'm making a political argument, and I'm acknowledging it. I'm saying this is a blight on what happened. However, the moral story of that whole thing is a people who expanded legally their existing population that they've been in for thousands of years. It's not colonialism. To this day, they dig up ancient Israel and find Jewish artifacts in Hebrew writing. This is not, there was no, in 1910 or 1920, if some Russians, Russian Jews, again, fleeing annihilation,

said, we're going to move to Palestine. Nobody would have said to them, you can't do that. How dare you think you can go to Palestine I'm going to move to Palestine I'm going to buy some land what are you a monster you're going to go there and buy land in Palestine nobody would say that

you're getting killed here in Russia it's legal there's not many people there Mark Twain wrote about how you could go 20 miles in any direction not even see a town most of the land of Israel now is desert. You go there and you buy land and you expand

your existing population. Yeah, you're the minority, but plenty of people come to America and expanded their population here illegally. We see people coming now from Venezuela in Central America, desperate situation to America.

Right. Illegally. And our heart goes out to them. We say, what kind of person would deny these suffering people the right to come here to America illegally? And then that same person, how dare those Jews move into Palestine in 19... Well, that was that day's version of it, except worse. Being murdered and slaughtered everywhere in the world. And they come to... So this is the... And I think I'm being fair. This is the story.

And in that story, yes, there's not one positive narrative where everybody on one side was evil and everybody on the other side was angelic and no Jew ever murdered anybody or no Jew... Yeah, of course this happens. When a Jew killed Rabin, I mean, we're people. Oh, exactly. Yeah, for sure.

But the focus on it... So then you fast forward. Now, how does it that Israel came to be occupying the West Bank? They were attacked. They were attacked by a neighboring nation. They were attacked. They were attacked by a neighboring nation. They actually warned Jordan,

don't attack. They started the Six-Day War with Egypt. Don't attack and we won't attack you. They're attacked from Jordan and they beat back the attack. And they sued for peace immediately.

You know this. Right after the war, they wanted to give it back in return for an end to the conflict. And the Arab response was, no recognition, no negotiation, no, three no's, whatever. No recognition, no negotiation, no Jesus Christ, I'm

cognitive decline. Anyway, whatever the third one was. So they're stuck in this situation with the West Bank. How is it that they have Gaza? You know how it is that they have Gaza? When Sadat and Begin were settling at Camp David, Sadat would not take Gaza back. And actually, Camp David

almost broke down over that issue because Israel desperately wanted to give Gaza back. They gave back the entire Sinai, except for this one strip. Egypt would not take it back. Now Israel's saddled with Gaza. No peace, no resolution. In fairness, Noam, I recently read that after the Six-Day War, there was no formal offer to give the West Bank back,

but there was an offer to negotiate. There was no... The three no's that I'm talking about, I didn't make it up. Those are true. Although I did also... No peace, no negotiation. Although I did read that Jordan said, well, if you give it back, we won't recognize your right to exist, but we'll stop being hospitable. Jordan didn't want it back

because it was Palestinian. By 1970, the Palestinians within Jordan had, I'm reading about it now, there was a war against King Hussein in Jordan where the Palestinians and Assyrians came to the Black September.

Who knows how many Palestinians were massacred then? I haven't seen it on your Instagram, but a hell of a lot of Palestinians. I'm so happy you're following me now. A hell of a lot of Palestinians were massacred in Jordan. Hey, for sure. And 500,000 Syrians were massacred a few years ago in Syria.

And how many Arabs were massacred in Yemen? And how many Arabs were massacred in Iraq? And how many Muslims were massacred in Iran, in Afghanistan? If you want to focus on the few hundred Palestinians that were massacred in this tumult, in Iran, in Afghanistan. If you want to focus on the few hundred Palestinians that were massacred in this tumult, it's all true.

But there's something to be, you know, wondered about the focus on that within this greater narrative and within the greater narrative of what the fucking world is really like. This is the way war is. America, is America better? No, it's not that America is better.

Have we ever fought a war without some massacre coming out? Listen, there are- Have we? No. Ever. We've definitely done it, and America has covered them up as well. That's right. In our most righteous wars, in World War I and World War II, you think we didn't massacre?

We bombed residents. No, we definitely did. We targeted civilians. But we didn't do it in the name of Judaism. Israel did not do it. And massacres are still happening. Israel did not do it in the name of Judaism. I mean, returning to the land that Abraham gave us, that's part of the thing. Now you don't know your history.

The Herzl. Theodor Herzl. These were not religious people. These were not religious people. Right. A people has an attachment to a land that doesn't have to be religious. Whatever you want to say about the Arab-Israeli conflict, this is where the Jewish people come from. And it's also where Arab people come from.

I'm not begrudging that. It's where everybody comes from. But you see, to say they were massacred in the name of Judaism. Well, I do think that they... They were massacred after, again, this will go back to it, they were massacred in the context of a war where they were being attacked. What about the bombing of the King David Hotel?

That was before... Yeah, well, this is... There was no massacre there. I mean, they killed, like, what, 40 people? Well, I don't know that. I have to admit, I don't know that. I know that they were warned. They did shady things.

Maybe they were all, you know... The Irgun... They rushed off the Holocaust, and a lot of them had that trauma, but a lot of people think that what's happening to the Palestinians, the Irgun with the Holocaust. And a lot of them had that trauma. But a lot of people think that what's happening to the Palestinians, they call it their own Holocaust. They think that they're a victim now. But it's not. But it's not a holiday.

If it's not a Holocaust. First of all, the King David hotels. I understand it. This is against the British now. Yeah, that was which is a whole nother. This now you have a the weaker fighting for liberation. I mean, this is revolution in a sense, but I believe they warned the British they were going to attack the King David Hotel.

Well, that is something that I know the IDF still likes to do, and they still like to say, oh, we warned you before we bombed the hell out of you. But, I mean, is that okay? Oh, they told me it was okay before they came and shot up my family. Well, at some point, you're arguing for the Jewish people to have submitted to...

Well, let me ask you this. If everything that you think should have happened in history did happen in history, where would the Jewish people be today? I mean, the history is gone. It's over. No, no, no. But I want a better future now. I want illegal settlements to stop building, expanding.

I don't want them to kick a thousand people out. I'm just saying, if they hadn't killed any of the British and they hadn't defended themselves in 1948, they hadn't had the temerity to move to Palestine in the turn of the century, where would the Jewish people be? And if the Holocaust never happened... Forget about the Holocaust. Not even mention the Holocaust. I mean, I mentioned it earlier, but I'm not mentioning it now. Just like, what is it...

What standard are you holding? What unique to the world standard are you holding the Jewish people to that no other people have ever been held to? The highest standard of being God's people. The highest standard is to allow yourself to be killed. Stay in Russia. I don't think so.

Do they have some choice whether to leave Russia or not? And the pogroms and everything going on in Russia? Leave Europe? Why did Herzl come up with Zionism? Because things were hunky-dory? Because he thought this is great for us here? I mean, I'm not sure exactly why he came up with it. Because of vicious anti-Semitism.

What did you say that Israel right now is one of the major sources of anti-Semitism in the world? Major causes? People are anti-Semitic because of Israel and because of Israel's actions. I see no... Right after Israel offered to give virtually everything back in 2000, 2001,

in an area with Bush and Olmert and Clinton and Rabin and Barack and all that stuff. A Jewish person killed Rabin. And it isn't always they want to give everything back. It's always they want the Palestinian people to submit to whatever offer they want to give, whether it's like right now they don't want to give up East Jerusalem to make it a capital. There's always something that... I'm not talking about now. I'm talking about when... I mean, that's been a source of contention. When Israel

had left-wing governments and hundreds of thousands of people were protesting for peace now in Israel, it didn't seem to me that the world was any less anti-Semitic. And I don't think it will be. I don't think the average anti-Semite has any details about what's going on in Israel.

I don't think he's motivated to become anti-Semitic. Well, I mean, would you... It's like an old school... anti-Semitic. Well, I mean, would you... I could say to you that a lot of racism against black people is because of the crime. Blame black people for racism? I mean, you can do that.

But I'm not gonna... There's no excuse for anti-Semitism. I mean, I agree with you that there is no excuse for anti-Semitism, but I could understand how there are so many people, generations right now, that dislike Jews, have negative feelings about Jews just because of what happened to them or family or friends in Israel. And that is why they have these views. In France, a lot of the anti-Semitism that's happening there, that's where it's from. It's not this

old-school anti-Semitism, Kanye, Jews, the whole media. So why do the Sunnis hate the Shiites so much? Why do what? Why do the Sunnis slaughter the Shiites and vice versa? Religious differences. And somehow, and

I'm just skeptical of the whole thing. I think this is. I mean, there were bad things that happened, but before 1948, there were Jews and Arabs living peacefully amongst each other. There are still Jews and Arabs living peacefully amongst each other. Of course. And I want there to be more. There are no more Jews in the Arab world.

Why is that? They were all expelled. We're coming back. But you know, They were all expelled. We're coming back. But you know they were all expelled. Yes. And you know that right now on the West Bank, if you sell land to somebody Jewish, it's a death penalty.

I mean, really, if you want to take even-handed stock of all this stuff, then let's take even-handed stock of all of it. I mean, well, that's the thing. I don't take even-handed stock of all this stuff, then let's take even-handed stock of all of it. I mean, I, well, that's the thing. It's, I don't take even-handed stock. That's right. Because I do think that like, we have to be an example

and we have to be the light of the world. And we have to, I want a Yerushalayim shalzahab, not one that's covered in blood. And I feel like as long as we have this attitude, well, this Arab nation, they're worse and this person's worse and there's these worse atrocities. Okay, that's not us. That's not the Jewish people,

and that's not what we need to take accountability for and responsibility for, and not how we have to move forward to make the world a better place and be an example to people. So look, I think that it's very dangerous what you're doing, if all Jews were to do that, because it's perfectly reasonable for the world, who doesn't live and breathe this conflict and doesn't care about it that much, why should they? It's not their conflict. They know about as much of it, less of it, about it than we know about Russia and Ukraine. They have a vague idea who the good guys and the bad guys are. They don't know the history.

If Jews speak like you do, they will get the feeling that the Jews are the bad guys in this conflict. If Jews speak like I'm speaking, I think people will consider me reasonable, not afraid to acknowledge when the Israelis have committed atrocities or anything that they should be ashamed of. And maybe for that reason, more convincing, when I'm explaining the entire narrative of why Israel has every right to exist

and why the reason that there is no peace now is not because of Israel. It's because of the rejection of peace in every chapter, as recently as the early 2000s, when the Arabs, when the Palestinians walked out of the peace settlement with no counteroffer. But again, it's because they weren't feeling heard and they weren't getting an offer that they wanted. I'm sorry, you're making that up. I'm not making that up. If we look back at when they went to Camp David

and you read about it, it's not. It's that they wanted to have something but there was frustrations with them not being able to bring to the table. Really? Are you aware of some deal that they agreed they said they would take? When? Before someone killed Rabin?

Yeah. That was a deal. Yeah. And who killed Rabin? Not a terrorist. What would they, or later than that, after Rabin killed, Barak negotiated, Umar negotiated. What deal were the Palestinians holding out for? Are you aware of it? They're holding out for, I mean, a lot of them are holding out for everything. No, no, the leadership. What deal would the leaders have taken? They're holding out for, I mean, a lot of them are holding out for everything. No, no, the leadership. What deal would the leaders have taken?

Normally before you leave a negotiation, you say, listen, this is what I want, and I'll take this. Right. Have you read it? So what do they want now, like the 67 lines, and they want East Jerusalem? No, they never even agreed to that. If you read Dennis Ross's book, who was the lead negotiator for that, or if you read Clinton's memoirs on this, they blame Arafat 100 percent for this. No ambiguity. They were there.

Now, you could think Bill Clinton is lying and Dennis Ross is lying. You can think that, but you have to have reason to think that. No, because I've read some things differently, I guess, than you. Not from the people who are in the room. Yeah, saying that they weren't having those communications, that they weren't giving what was wanted. I'm not able to gather that information right now, but I would definitely want to get it. And you need to go back to you about it again, because no, like this is a thing that I think happens.

That isn't a problem. Again, that is like one, we look for one little false thing and then we want to reject everything. Another is we, we aren't really in touch with what, like what is happening. We're like,

Oh, they refused our offer. It's like, yeah, we, we gave them shit and they didn't want it. And we're like, oh, they refused our offer. It's like, yeah, we gave them shit and they didn't want it. And we're like, well, we tried. They didn't give them shit.

It was like 98% or 97% of the original land plus land swaps for the rest of it. A land bridge between Gaza and the West Bank. I mean, obviously, if it was a democracy of people rather than dictatorship, that would have to have been much, much better than what it is that they've been enduring now and how it's gotten worse and how the Israeli right has gotten much worse. But nobody doubts that Rabin and Barak, I don't think anybody doubts, these people were negotiating good faith.

But as I said, this land was occupied because they'd been attacked. And to this day, if you blow up some Jews, they hand out candies, and then they give you a lifetime pension in the Palestinians. So Israel was not—and the country is, what, seven miles wide there. So let's not pretend that Israel doesn't have real security concerns. Just recently, we had friends in bomb shelters every night as missiles rained down in Israel now.

And Palestinian homes are getting raided every night, and there are kids getting killed every night in Palestine. A thousand Palestinians are now getting expelled from their homes in the West Bank, in the South Hebron Hills, because they want to build a training thing for the IDF. We got this new right-wing government with, you know, Itmar Ben-Gavir, who I mentioned before, who is a terrorist. I don't know if we want it. Let's not talk about the right-wing government now,

because this narrative, that just happens this week, and that can't be considered causative of everything that you've been doing. But that's where, like, Israel is moving, and, like, that's not the direction that I'm trying to promote. It's scary if it moves that way. Because that's just, to me, i'm trying to move because that's just to me going to cause more violence against israel it's just going to cause more hatred against the jewish people and it's kind of like now you're very you're very you're very uh solicitous of these

psychological reactions do you think that ben gevier became any more likely to be a successful politician after Israel spent a month in bomb shelters with missiles coming down in Tel Aviv, you know, near Tel Aviv. I mean, I'm sure people like him more, but like, listen, those missiles. You don't see you don't see that. It's only we only allow the Palestinians their reactions. But you don't know. I mean, well, first of all, Israel has one of the most sophisticated armies in the world. It has the Iron Dome. And it's like they're throwing rocks and we're...

No, no, they're launching missiles. They're launching missiles and the Iron Dome maybe gets, let's say Iron Dome gets 85% of them. That means 15 out of 100 of them land on some place. Who could live that way? How long do you think we would live in Manhattan or New York

if every day we would wind up in fucking bomb shelters? Would you keep going into the area where they're bombing or would you say, hey, maybe we should move back and give these people a little space? I don't know what we would do. I know we bombed, we took over two nations just from one World Trade Center. I mean, I don't think that when you're living on the southern border of Israel, you have any room to give anybody space when that war is going on.

Like, there's no moving back, right? I know, but these illegal settlements keep on popping up. They're moving forward. There's no illegal settlement in Gaza. Not in Gaza, but in the West Bank. The missiles come from Gaza. I'm talking about... But still, there are...

I'm sorry. No, no, no. There are reactions to things that are happening in the West Bank. Then why would they attack the 60s? Then what was... Listen, in Camp David in 2000, I guess it was 2000, right after Arafat walked out, what happened? The second intifada started.

Now, the second intifada was the defining moment in modern Israeli history because what was happening there, all of a sudden, a wave, and it went on for, what, a year or two? I don't know, it went on for a long time. A wave of suicide bombings attacked Israel. Children, weddings, restaurants, buses. The entire country was upended right in the in the face of its most all out effort to make peace. All its leaders were focused on trying to figure out some solution to this problem through negotiation. And yes, maybe they didn't want to agree to everything the Palestinians wanted because they have to have a country they could defend. So maybe there was some disagreement.

But they were down to a very, very small amount of land and a very, very small issues here. Not the kind of issues you'd think would deserve. Okay, we're pulling out. We're not even going to tell you what our counteroffer is. We're going to take to the job of murdering your children in the buses, in their restaurants, in their schools.

And then, God forbid, your population should turn to the right. We're then going to blame you for them turning to the right. This is then going to blame you for them turning to the right. This is not realistic. I'm sorry. I know you're, this is at some point a psychological tick for a Jew to not have the heart to understand what it means to have lived through that period of Israeli history

and seen the carnage that they were answered with after what everybody, I think even you would agree, was good faith leadership that wanted peace. And this went on, and Israelis, and my father was one of them, but many of them said, you know what? I was wrong. I was one of those people protesting for peace now. I'll never make that mistake again.

When a Palestinian, Martin Luther King or Gandhi or Mandela, when they have a leader or like Sadat who says, we want peace with Israel, call me, wake me. That's when I will ship my policy. Meantime, it's all about keeping Israelis alive and safe. And that complicates things. You're right, because now there's more and more of these right-wing crazies. And they're what, 10%, 15% of the population? But because of the...

It's kind of like Joe Manchin. Because the country right now is so evenly divided, these ultra-right-wing people have tremendous leverage. They don't represent the spirit of the country. It's that the country is so evenly divided that they can command tremendous concessions to join either

government. And it's very scary and I'm with you 100% on that. Ben Gavir is whatever it is. I think they'll fizzle out because every Israeli I talk to now, even Likud voters, like, oh shit, this is crazy. So we'll see what happens.

It's a democracy. And it's a democracy which reacts to, and in Lod, there were Arab Israelis for the first time were killing Israelis. Right. I mean, but their democracy is kind of winding down,

it almost seems like, where they want to make it so they could veto laws that were passed by the Supreme Court. They want to let people refuse service if they're LGBT. Of course, they're moving forward. You know, I think I understand what you're saying, where you're coming from, because the truth is the Arabs do, the Palestinians, they do need a better leader. They do need a good leader. But what can we do to promote this? What can we do to promote peace? What can we do to promote peace?

What can we do to promote them wanting more? See, that's really interesting. I mean— Nothing. What can we do? Abbas is on the 17th, 18th year of his four-year term. He is a vicious dictator. A vicious dictator ruling over his people like a despot.

And our best and brightest Jews want to talk only about, and you know, God bless us, very few people are able to do that. We want to talk about what we've done wrong, what we disagree with our own people, and we should talk about that. But for Christ's sake, this guy is a despot. What about Netanyahu now who's back, who's on corruption trials, who also is holding on to power any way he can whether it's teaming up with people that he shouldn't be. Yeah, that's the system. So they're bad people on both sides, but I still think that

what could we do more? What could we do better? Because what we're doing is not working. And then that's why we're going to keep getting bombed. It's condescending. It's almost condescending to say something. It's up to them to decide they want to make peace. We should not behave immorally,

and we do sometimes. We shouldn't do that. But we are not in control of the hearts and minds of Palestinian people, and for whatever reason it is, that they have never wanted and never been able to tolerate the idea of a Jewish state in Palestine. It's just, you know.

It's like we corner a rabid dog and then we get upset with it when it bites us. You know, that's almost how I feel like things kind of are. Do you think that a fair solution would be 67 borders but no right of return? Would that be a fair solution would be 67 borders, but no right of return? Would that be a fair solution? Hey, they want to change the right of return for Jews now anyway. But do you think that would be a fair—I mean, no right of return for Palestinians and their descendants?

The Palestinians are never going to think that anything is fair. It's the truth. They're not. But it doesn't mean we shouldn't try. It doesn't mean we shouldn't make an effort. It doesn't mean we should stop moving forward. But do you think that would be a fair solution? Do I think that would be a fair solution?

Of course it's a fair solution. I don't know. How could that not be a fair solution? What more could they ask for the 67 borders and no right of return? I mean, well. But they could ask for a right of return. A right of return is not a good faith having Jerusalem as a capital

East Jerusalem as a capital I know that's a big thing for them that they want to get but I think it's acknowledging the past and moving forward for like are they going to acknowledge the past

or only we have to acknowledge the past I hope some of them I hope they will acknowledge the past do I think the boss is going to acknowledge the past? No. But do I think that there are a lot of innocent Palestinian people who get caught up in all of this and bad leadership, and they're the ones that are suffering? They were suffering back in 48 when the Arab nations attacked, and they're still suffering now. I think that there's...

They are suffering. I think that there's no doubt that the majority of Palestinian people are good people who just want to live their lives and be able to work and support their families just like everybody else. I mean, the interesting question for me is what you're saying is like, how do you move forward? How do you move forward? How do you move forward? How do you do that? You need to have a partnership, right? Like we need to be able to figure out some kind of an agreement where both people can live peacefully together. That's.

I mean, yeah, that's what I hope that we could have, you know, a peaceful and prosperous, like're we're we're cousins. Yeah, I basically the same people, you know, I mean, it's not like I'm so into the Bible or anything. But if you want to go back to Abraham and he had he had two sons and I mean, forget Abraham, you know, DNA studies do show great similarity between Palestinian, Lebanese, Syrian, and Jewish DNA, even Ashkenazi Jews. So you don't even have to look at the Bible. You just look at those studies that do show commonality among the populations. But many people reject that and say, no, the Jews are invaders from Europe, colonizers from Europe they don't want to acknowledge

everybody should watch The Gatekeepers which is very troubling to watch if you're pro-Israel but it's an interview with all like five or six former heads of the shin bed, have you watched it? I haven't watched it but I heard of it you should really watch it

and they describe, not massacres, but immoral acts, or what sound like immoral acts, or at least very harsh acts. It's very disturbing. But these are patriots. It's interesting. I wish I could see what was on the cutting room floor. But what you see essentially is these the Shin Bet is like, you know, the

ultimate secret police of Israel. And these people just who have serious moral qualms years later of all these very harsh actions that they were responsible for and the suffering that they knew they caused with nothing to show for it and how these plans that you know they thought this

would work and they thought that would work and i thought this would work would would pay off in some way and so you know it it's it was interesting because on the one hand there's there's revelations there which you feel kind of ashamed of as a jew or Israeli, you know, to hear these things. On the other hand, it was fascinating to me to see this deep moral suffering of the most cold-hearted warriors in charge of, you know, the decision to kill or not. And it was one story there where there was all the leaders of Hamas, where it was kind of like the Godfather III, where in one building, I think it was in Gaza, and they knew it, Israeli intelligence had it.

And I think it was Sharon was the prime minister, and they wanted to bomb this building to smithereens and kill them all in one fell swoop. But it was a very densely populated area. And they came back to Sharon that if they destroy the building, a certain number of Palestinians, civilians would die, a significant number. But if they just bombed the top of the building,

it would just stay within that building and probably not have a lot of collateral damage. So they say, well, maybe some of them will be upstairs. We'll take the crapshoot. In the end, Israel opted just to bomb the second floor of the building, and none of them were there, and the entire opportunity was squandered. So would it have been better to kill a bunch of civilian Palestinians for them to die? Well, these are impossible questions.

And these are impossible questions. And these are impossible questions. We killed hundreds of thousands of civilians in our Iraq war and our Afghanistan war. Now, maybe you think the Iraq war was a mistake. Most people thought the Afghanistan war was warranted. You can't do it without killing civilians. Israel is at war. Here's the thing. And it's easy as hell to judge.

It's very easy. But anyway, it was interesting to see that they didn't do it. Like, you think that these are all murderous, bloodthirsty, whatever, because from time to time

you read about something and you say, how could they do that? But the fact is, when you watch this documentary, that's not the way it was. Every single one of these decisions

is mauled and considered and estimated in terms of collateral damage against how the strategic benefits of it. It's really fascinating to see what they're going through. It's very simplistic to sit back and criticize. Well, there is a lot of collateral damage. You should criticize.

And they seem to be okay with it. And there are a lot of other soldiers that have come out too. There's this great organization called Breaking the Silence, which has over 1,300 ex-IDF soldiers who are speaking out against their experience in the West Bank and the occupation. Yeah, God bless them. They're so upset about what they had to participate in. Listen. What the culture.

I'm going to give you my phone number. You can call me 24 hours a day, seven days a week. The second you hear some important Palestinian group go public with what they're ashamed of. Just wake me. I'll pay for an Uber. Come to my house and get me. Because what I'm saying matters. Yes, you know about this because there's a moral situation there, just like Abu Ghraib in America, where humans fall short, and then they reveal their own sins, and

there's a public outcry, and there's a judiciary, and people are punished. And I'm sure they go too easy on them at times because they don't have the balls to punish them quite as badly as they should be punished. And that's human, and I'm not defending it, but it's reality. But to compare that picture to this, there's zero of that in Israel's enemies.

Zero. Zero. These people, these areas, they still, what do they do to gay people? But is our morality dependent on other people and other people's actions? No. No, I'm saying our morality is quite to be proud of, I think. We're not going to eliminate humans from doing terrible things.

You're not going to eliminate that. As long as there is an Israel, every year there will be some Israelis, especially as long as there's a conflict, doing something reprehensible, barbaric, that we should be ashamed of. Oh, for sure, yeah. And God bless Israel. You come in to, you know, the massacre at the Cave of the Patriarchs. And God bless Israel for having such a free press, like Haaretz, for having these truth-tellers that you're talking about, all this stuff that exists within Israel, trying to keep itself on some sort of moral course

when any other country that you could ever think of in the history of the world that's had this kind of daily threat, let alone the United States of America, has gone half-cocked into slaughter of their enemies.

So, as I'm describing it, Israel's not, I'm not terribly ashamed of Israel. I'm just not. I'm terribly ashamed of any particular Israeli who does something bad, but I'm also quite proud of Israel for being so open and for being so serious about allowing these people to be called out, exposed, written about. And there's something just stunning about the contrast with the people

that they're fighting. I mean, I don't think, yes. It's hard to talk about this because you're right. Compared to the other side, it is better. They are more interested in peace, vocal about it.

They do take some accountability. You are very knowledgeable about this subject and insightful and passionate but there are many people involved that aren't and you're never gonna get on at the commie cellar i'm telling you that right believe me when they call me down i call dan right away she's like come i don't think i should come and do this. No, no, you're actually way more reasonable than Dan made you out to be. And I find myself using the word enemy. I'm sure the listener could hear.

A certain language that I'm veering into is not the language that I want to use. It's the language of wartime, and that's why I'm using those languages. I personally, I probably have much, I don't know, I shouldn't say, but I have a lot of, that even sounds bad. I have very close Palestinian and Arabic friends who I'm very mindful that I don't,

that when they listen to me talking about it, that they don't consider me to be dehumanizing or hateful or any of these things, which I understand the kind of things I'm saying can sound like. Just saying that. So I'm not confusing people with, you know, governments and all that. But it does need to be said that there's stark differences here.

And, you know, homosexuals are, you know, I don't know if they're killed on the West Bank or not. I mean, it's not a good place to be gay. But, I mean, like I said, in Israel, they're passing new laws that people could discriminate against LGBT. There was Tel Aviv in 2000. They have not passed that. They had an LGBT parade. And Jews stabbed people. Like, it's not, we shouldn't just be called,

you know, it's so easy. Orthodox Jews. But I was just in Tel Aviv. I think I have never seen. It was as if it was, as if I was in a gay country, but I saw on Tel Aviv,

I have never seen even in New York. Oh, it's super progressive. They have more openly. This is the, I would say this is on Earth. This is the highest fulfillment of gay rights that I have ever seen anywhere or heard of anywhere on planet Earth is what Tel Aviv is right now. I heard this like 30 percent of the city is now gay.

Tel Aviv is consistently voted the like number one gay city in the world. I mean, people come from all over the world to celebrate pride in Tel Aviv and have for quite some time. So that's certainly true. And I've seen it firsthand. I had no idea. I'd been in Tel Aviv 10 years ago.

It wasn't like that. It's just unbelievable. So, you know, yes, we have Orthodox Jews. And let me tell you something. The Orthodox of every religion are anti-homosexual. As a matter of fact, the Orthodox Jews are probably way less anti-gay and have way less gay blood on their hands than any other Orthodox religion. But yeah, we have that.

Who would say otherwise? To focus on it, I would have to say you'd have to explain that decision. Well, no, I don't like to focus on it. It's misleading. But I just think people want to be like, oh, you know, they hate gays in the Arab world. And it's just like, okay, well, you know, we're not so like we are good, but we have some problems on that issue too. I just feel like using that to quantify. They murder gays. It's horrible. It's horrible that to quantify. They murder gays.

It's horrible. It's horrible. Israel's not murdering gays. Does that mean that their civilians deserve... No, of course not. I love that you are able to acknowledge, but a lot of people aren't able to do that. I know that Farha came out.

I know it's just based on a true story. But Israeli historians have documented massacres happen. And to just be like, this is so many people, so many Jews, this is all just fiction, bunch of terrorists, they're all terrorists. This is an attitude that too many Jewish people have. If I had an Israeli on this show who was saying those things, I would be just as hard on them as I kind of have been on you. I wouldn't tolerate it for a second because it's not true.

We know these massacres occurred. And that's amazing. But unfortunately, too many people aren't as enlightened as you are, and they spread a different message, and they bring up their kids, and people don't really know the pain and the suffering that these people are going through. I agree with that. I agree with that.

I agree with that statement. If you talk to, we should have Mustafa on again. If you talk to Mustafa, he's a Palestinian Israeli. I mean, he will tell you his story. How does he consider himself a Palestinian or an Israeli Arab

or a Palestinian of Israeli citizenship? I've heard yesterday that the term Israeli Arab is no longer considered kind of the right term. The term of, preferred term is Palestinian Israeli or Israeli Palestinian. I don't know. Well, I think it also depends on who you're talking to. Some consider themselves perhaps Israeli Arabs and some consider themselves... Anybody I've met who's a Palestinian Israeli considers themselves first and foremost Arabic and Palestinian. And as far as I could tell, they also understand that Israel is quite a nice place to live in terms of prosperity vis-a-vis, you know, the countries in the Arab world.

They're not looking to get up and leave. They just want to not live as second class citizens. Who can blame them? Well, it's true. I mean, I know people want to say it's apartheid. A lot of people don't like that label. But there are different laws, different rules. Not for Israeli Arabs, no.

Okay, but for Palestinians and just... Well, it's an occupied territory. I mean, you know, they just recently... They're not racial. No, it's not... I mean, we can talk for hours about the apartheid thing. But it's not a racial distinction. And it's not meant as a racial distinction.

And even the Amnesty International report, if you read it, if you search it, they actually say, we don't mean apartheid as in South Africa. Like, even they say, like, the headline was apartheid, which is so, to me, so disingenuous. Like, what do you mean by apartheid?

Like, anybody hears apartheid, they assume you mean like South Africa. It's the only apartheid we know of. So they're using it as a... Just to zoom out, just to zoom out, Noam, maybe we can discuss for a few minutes on a more general matter. The appropriateness in 2023

of having a country that defines itself either along religious lines or along ethnic lines. Saudi Arabia, I believe, for example, defines itself as a Muslim country. In fact, I think it's I think it's illegal to convert out of being Muslim in Saudi Arabia. Egypt calls itself the Arab Egyptian Republic. And not every Egyptian is Arabic. Do you think something about that? Go ahead. Do you? And Israel, of course, defines itself as the Jewish state. Japan, I don't know if they define themselves as an ethnic Japanese state.

They probably don't need to because it's so clear. But, I mean, do you think that this is a human flaw, that ideally every state should just be a state of all its citizens and not define itself along a particular cultural or religious axis? Well, I mean, I don't know, Dan. I think that, yeah, clearly it is a human flaw. Do you think it's a lesser evil? In other words...

But I think that the game theory of it all, meaning that if Israel were to stand down, as it were, in terms of being a place for the Jewish people, I mean, our enemies haven't gotten that memo. So it's a kind of thing which can only be embraced if everybody agrees to it. And it reminds me of something I heard on Eli Lake's podcast. This is from Theodore Herzl. He says, we might perhaps be able to merge ourselves entirely into surrounding races if these were to leave us in peace for a period of two

generations. Exactly what you're saying. But they will not leave us in peace. For a little period, they managed to tolerate us, and then their hostility breaks out again and again. The world is provoked somehow by our prosperity because it has for many centuries been accustomed to consider us as the most contemptible among the poverty-stricken. In its ignorance and narrowness of heart, it fails to observe that the prosperity weakens our Judaism and extinguishes our peculiarity.

And here's the key part. It is only pressure that forces us back to the parent stem. It is only hatred encompassing us that makes us strangers once more. Thus, whether we like it or not, we are now and shall henceforth remain a historic group with unmistakable characteristics common to us all. meaning that at times when the Jews have not faced enemies and have become prosperous within other nations, they have tended to just intermarry and blend and seem ready to give up being that distinct. But the world never permits it.

The world, like the Germans, it's a cliche. We're not Jews, we're German. The world always, at some point, reminds the Jews, not so fast, you're not welcome. And then we cling to our Jewishness again. So yeah, I think it's great if the world stopped that stuff, but that's not realistic. So you think it's the hatred the world stopped that stuff, but that's not realistic.

So you think it's the hatred that keeps the Jewish people together? I think that if the Arabs had zero problem with the Jews and we had a warm relationship with the Arab world like we have with Canada, let's say, for 50 years. Except for those Canadian truckers. You would see intermarriage. You would see border crossings. You would see everything. Yeah, and you would see Jewishness begin to melt away, but it's not threatened.

You would see that kind of thing. I mean, they'd still be Jewish. It wouldn't happen overnight, but you'd get a totally different reaction. But what is Jewishness? Is Jewishness what these extremist religious people are doing in Israel? Or is it

having an open discourse like we're having now? It's both. John, can I ask you, if you could, if you had your druthers, tomorrow you wake up and you read in the paper two states for two peoples has been approved by both sides. There'll be a Jewish

state and there'll be an Arab state in Palestine as it was described by the UN in 1948 or you can say a Palestinian state or it's been decided by both parties that there will be one state that will be neither Arab nor Jewish,

and that has been voted upon. Which would you prefer to see? One state. Oh, that's insanity. I mean, well, which would I prefer in this hypothetical situation? Which more do I think is reality? I think two states, but if I'm dreaming, I would love to see one state where we're all living.

And what would the system be? Democracy? Together. I mean, it would be yes. So you would prefer a democracy? You would prefer the one state that doesn't allow homosexual rights to the two states. I mean, in this hypothetical situation they would allow. No, it would still be

the Palestinians. It would be the... Well, it would be whoever is there. So the majority, I guess, would be... There would be a slight, probably, Palestinian majority. And they would set the laws. And they would set the laws vis-a-vis gays and rights. You're worried about Ben-Gavir. You're talking about people...

You're talking about a one-state solution with a majority that makes Ben-Gavir look like AOC. I hear what you're saying. Am I misstating it? No. Well, I mean, I don't know. I thought this was more of a hypothetical situation where I'm thinking in better case scenarios

than that reality. But I mean... No, Dan just meant the current populations, but just... I meant the current populations. Yeah. And so Israel gives up and says... I mean, I think two states is the current populations. Yeah, and so Israel gives up. I mean, having two states is the best solution. But, I mean, it would be nice. You're saying in an ideal world if everybody could hold hands and say goodbye?

Yeah, you know. Maybe. There were no borders and we weren't, like, separating ourselves based on religion or culture and all that. Yeah, that would be great. Nicole, cue John Lennon's Imagine, please. John, I guess we can... I don't know if Nicole found this conversation even remotely interesting. But I do have one other question for him.

Okay. Because my mother is... My mother grew up in a very important Zionist family, and she's quite anti-Israel. She also grew up in Israel. She grew up in Israel, yeah, but also in a very, like, Israeli, influential Israeli Zionist circles. Like, her father and Ben-Gurion were, you know, lovers.

And I can't account for her anti-Israel feelings, but it's vehement, kind of vehemence that maybe only comes from a Jew who's lost the faith, as it were. I don't mean religious faith. Do you feel—I don't want to chalk you off to a psychological thing. Thank you. I appreciate that, not just to a psychological thing. Thank you. I appreciate that. Not just being a self-hating Jew.

But I do chalk you off to that. That's the problem. If you say something against it, you're anti-Semitic. If you're a Jew speaking against it, then you're a self-hating Jew. If you're spreading other things, it's all propaganda. I'm not calling you a Jew. But I do feel like in some way because you were raised Orthodox

and for whatever your feelings about that it has made you more, it has propelled you in some way to take more intense positions than you would have if you had not been raised Orthodox.

And I'm wondering, like, do you discuss that? Do you think about that? Do you think you talk about it with a therapist? Do you believe that's just totally not true? I'm just interested in that. I don't really think that my upbringing, like, I think it shapes my perspective of it in, like, a different way where i feel like like this is more of like a duty that i have because of that because of the jewishness that i have because of i i don't

believe in religion you know but i am proud to be jewish so i feel like all right yeah no like no it's not because of like but that has given me insight, and it has helped shape my perspective. And also just my experience with what I was told growing up as an Orthodox Jew and what my community, what my peers, what everybody thought. It wasn't in touch with reality. Well, that's a nice defensible explanation for what I'm asking about. So the anger of having been raised in lies, as it were, can have a slingshot effect. You're so fucking angry

that they lied to you all this time and fed you all this, you know, bullshit about how we're all dressed in white and they're all dressed in black that when you were, like, red-pilled, like they say, you became angry. And maybe that's the reaction we're seeing. and they're all dressed in black, that when you were red-pilled, like they say,

you became angry. And maybe that's the reaction we're seeing. He's saying you overshot. I definitely have some anger issues because of the way I was brought up and the experience I've had, for sure. And I guess it definitely shaped my perspective. That's normal. Does any of this make its way on stage?

I know like Iman El-Husseini has jokes about this. She's a Palestinian comedian from Canada. Yeah, she's great. She's not a fan. She's not a fan. I know.

She's a fan of mine now. I know she talks about this on stage. I'm sure she is. But you talk about it. I mean, most people don't. I do talk about it. You do talk about this on stage.

I mean, I'm picky with audiences and where I talk about it on. But I would like to talk about it. I mean, most people don't. I do talk about it. You do talk about the Sunscape. I mean, I'm picky. And if you have audiences and where I talk about it on, but I would like to talk about it more. When you send your tape to Esty. Yeah, I would applaud you. Can I pull that part out? Esty probably would hold it against. Do you think?

Esty would not hold it against you. Esty would, but Esty would be more, she'd have a bigger... She'd be more angered by it, but she would not hold it against you, no. She wouldn't hold it to give you a spot, no. Anybody who gets laughed, listen, we all bleed Comedy Cellar blue here.

Anybody who kills at the Comedy Cellar, everything else comes second. Yeah, you guys put on, like, Moe plays here, right? What's wrong with Moe? Moe Ammer. What about Moe Ammer? Well, I'm saying, does he talk about the... He's Palestinian.

Why? Why? Noam wasn't aware. Hold on a second here. Moe says, Mohammed? There are a lot of comics. Well, there are a lot of Arabic comics. I don't know how

many of them talk about... Ismail? I don't know how many of them talk about the Arab-Israeli conflict, but... No, but to be fair to him, it's way more forgivable to meet a Palestinian who feels this way. Esty would be much less angered by Mo

than she would be by him. But Mo doesn't, by the way, Mo doesn't, as I recall, Mo doesn't say anything really that... No, but even if he did, I'm just saying. I mean, he probably thinks it. But isn't there like a really big distinction between being pro-Palestinian and anti-Jewish?

Like, I don't can, I'm totally pro-Palestinian, but I don't think that that makes me anti-Jewish. But there are people that will say that that does. Right. But I would also say that those people are wrong. They absolutely are. I mean. That's part of the perspective that I hope to shift. Right. Like, I think

that that's where that's where in the danger lies, that you can be pro-Palestinian and also be pro-Jewish, right? Like, that's the only way it can work. For sure, you can be pro-Palestinian human rights and not think that Israel needs to be wiped off the face of the earth.

But a lot of people have a hard time making that statement. They hear free Palestine and they're just like... But many of them do. Many people who say free Palestine want no more Israel. They might not want to kill the Jews there. They might want to say they can live as a minority in a majority Arabic state. Just like the Christians live in Lebanon. But wait a second.

From the sea, from... What did you just say? From the river to the sea. From the river live in Lebanon. But wait a second. From the sea, from what did you just say? From the river to the sea. From the river to the sea. Thank you. Isn't that like the actual meaning of the word that Israel is, or the phrase rather, that Israel won't be there anymore? That's correct.

Read the Hamas charter. Yes, that's correct. But that doesn't mean that they're going to kill every Jew there. Some of them might want to or to expel every Jew there. Some of them do. Many of them do want to do that. Others would just say, no, the Jews can live as a minority among us. And how will they be treated is an open question.

But that's a chance I wouldn't want to take if I were living there. Listen, nobody wants to be racist. Nobody wants to be bigoted. Well, some people do. No. And it's important not to be racist. Nobody wants to be bigoted. Well, some people do. No, and it's important not to be those things. On the other hand, I happen to think it's reasonable to look out on the landscape of the Muslim world, the Arabic world, and see how minorities,

country by country, are treated and assume, we have to give ourselves the benefit of the doubt, that it would only be worse for the Jews. However much they hate the Christians and are ready to, you know, terrorize them, or the Sunnis hate the Shiites, or the Alawites hate the, you know,

or the Wahhabis hate, I don't know all the sects, but however much they hate each other, they hate the Jews at least as much. And to think for a second that the Jews would risk it all in that context is just madness. And this is where I got into, with my mother at times,

like, it's not Canada. It's a terrible, and all these hundreds of thousands of people dying are victims of their horrible leaders or whatever it is, and they are humans, and it's a

tragedy the same as if Jews die. But let's not be naive. It is a tragedy the same as if Jews die. But let's not be naive. It is not racist to look at what is actually happening in the world and say, you know what, it's absolutely insane to think that anybody could ever suggest that Israel, the Jews, would allow themselves to become a minority, vulnerable in the same way that all these

other minorities are vulnerable in the Middle East and are getting slaughtered. That's just, that's just not, anybody who thinks that, I got to question where they're really coming from. Because nobody would allow their child, nobody would allow their child to be put in that kind of risk, not for a risk, not for a millisecond. Any reasonable... But don't we think we're putting people at risk by having people live in Israel and then continuing to do the things that we're doing to keep moving forward?

You know what, the second... Are we not putting people at risk? The second that... I will probably, to your frustration, come up with rationalizations for almost anything. But the second that you could demonstrate to me that there was a Palestinian peace movement that actually had finite, reasonable demands,

a la Sadat, then I think you could actually find me becoming very critical of Israel. Because at that point, if Israel became the intransigent, if Israel became the obstacle

to a settlement while the other side was the one who wanted it, then I hope that I would come to the right conclusions about that. But that's just, in my opinion, that's just not the case right now. We haven't even talked about Hamas. That pledges to the destruction of Israel. And by the way, from what I've heard,

the main reason they don't want to have elections on the West Bank is because they believe Hamas will win there too. Now, I think that would be better for Israel because I think it's way easier to defend Israel if the West Bank exposes itself for how it actually feels. But having said that, the smart people I speak to say, you know what, if there was an election on the West Bank, Hamas would win.

And then you'd have that charter on both sides of the country. And this would be the people that Israel is worried about. I mean, we view Hamas as terrorists and they view them as freedom fighters. And it's like, where is the line? And like, I can see both sides of it. No, there's not both sides of Hamas. I don't know what that means, we see both sides of it. No, there's not both sides to Hamas. I don't even know what that means. We see them as freedom fighters.

That's what the people see them as, freedom fighters. That's like the same thing with Nelson Mandela. They target innocent children. And not to be free. They do it in order because they sworn to the destruction to never accept Israel. There's not, they're not,

there was no embargo of Gaza on day one. Why, I mean, why does Egypt have an embargo against Gaza? I'm not... Well, it's the kind of question you would ask yourself before you, before I'm going to start criticizing Israel for this embargo against Gaza.

Let me just stop and say, wait a second. The Arabic people on the other side of that land also are very worried about Gaza. So maybe this is an apartheid, right? When your own people have the same embargo, then the apartheid description is pretty facile, right? If Arabic people have the same embargo, then the apartheid description

is pretty facile, right? Like, if Arabic people have an embargo against their own Arabic people, you want to call that apartheid? No, it's only when the Jews do it, it's apartheid. It doesn't hold up. Anyway. Alright. Anything else?

Well, I think that's it. Once again, Jonathan. Jonathan. You're going to close out on such a high note. Welcome to Send a Tape. I once again stress that this political disagreements have nothing to do with. No, I like political disagreements. Yeah.

I mean, Noam's father used to love, this is going back a generation, used to love hollering at Dino Badala, who I assume you know. Yes. Dino Badala is a half-Italian, half-Palestinian comic. But after 9-11, he became much more Palestinian, much more Arab, because that was the cause du jour. Islamophobia became a cause. Are you saying he cynically became Arabic in order to get more work? I think he ran with a cause. That's why Iically became arabic in order to get more work i i think he he ran with

a cause that's why i'm becoming trans and transitioning right now i think he ran with a cause that was in in the in the in the zeitgeist and uh because when i met him i don't recall him being quite that into the you know um into uh the arabic but anyway uh, but he used to come down here and get hollered at by Noam's father. And Noam jokingly said, maybe not so jokingly said, that's the reason he got booked here so he could get hollered at.

I don't know if there's any truth to that. Oh, it's absolutely true. Esty would not want to put him on. And my father said, Esty, just book him. I know, but just, she said, we already have five comedians.

Just put on another comedian. He just wanted Dean around to yell at. And he used to scream. I mean, I heard your father screaming at Dean. Dean is an extremely good natured guy. Dean has been really nice. The only reason he hasn't come on the podcast is because he's recording his own show. I've spoken to him numerous times.

No, my father loved Dean. No, no. Well, he might have. But I mean, he've spoken to him numerous times. No, my father loved Dean. No, no. Well, he might have, but I mean, he would scream at him. Yeah, all right. I'm just saying. Yeah, Dean's a great guy. I did his radio show about a month ago. Oh, I'm sure that must have been quite a debate.

It didn't come up at all. There's another guy, Amir Zahar. There's another guy, Amir Zahar. You know him? No. He's another guy. Amir Zahar, I's another guy, Amir Zahar. You know him? No. He's another guy. Amir Zahar, I think, is his name. I think he's from Detroit, which obviously is a very big Arab American community. But he is another.

He's a comedian. Okay. And he is all in for the Palestinian cause in a big, big, big, big way. I think him and Tal Alexander did a podcast together. Listen, I'm in for the Palestinian cause. The Palestinian cause means giving them their own homeland and a democracy and not have to do... Yeah, of course.

I'm totally in for that cause. Are they in for that cause? I don't know. It's an Israeli cause, too. It's not only a Palestinian thing. It's good for Israel. That's not the impression I get when I see your TikTok videos. I may be wrong, but the impression I get is somebody that wants to see

Israel dismantled. No, that's not my perspective. And I talk about the solution all the time. Is this Instagram or TikTok? TikTok mostly is where I see it. TikTok is my bigger following. We interrupt this regular schedule progress. I want to let you know, I am a Zionist.

I believe in the two-state solution. I'm just trying to make israel as good as it can be for my people i dare you i mean i don't know about the zionist part but the other part you are a zionist i'm saying i mean you believe in a two-state solution that's zionism i know zionism it's kind of gets a little like mixed up because in the root zionism is believing that israel right has a right to exist is that kind of like what it is? That's exactly what it is.

But a lot of people now view Zionism as more of like an aggressive thing. I sense a little cowardliness here. I just I would do 90% of what you said. I'm happy to tell you because this is exactly what my point was to you before.

It's fine to say that but if you are not ready to stand up for simple—to say publicly, I'm a Zionist. I said that—I mean— You can say, I'm a Zionist, which I—you said, I'm a Zionist, which I define as Israel having a right to exist. You see, my thing with that is, does any place have a right to exist, do you think? Well, there you go. You're giving yourself away. Well, no, but I do think there should be a two-state solution. You think Palestine has a right to exist? I think as much as any other place has a right to exist.

And I've said numerous times I believe in a two-state solution. I've said plenty of times I want a peaceful coexistence. I'm saying I dare you to go on TikTok. And I've called out many, many terror attacks against Israelis. I've called them out and I've said they're horrible. That's fine, but I dare you to go on TikTok and simply say that you support Israel's right to exist as a homeland for the Jewish people.

I dare you. What's in it for him? A steak dinner? Well, what's in it for him? A steak dinner? I prefer a spa. I wish I thought of this earlier, because what I'm doing is exposing what I thought to begin with, which is that you can say what you want, but you're not coming at this as a supporter of Israel, because you're afraid to even acknowledge you're a supporter of Israel.

No, but I think there is a way to acknowledge it without kind of like ostracizing people. All of your TikTok followers. What? You're saying there's a way to acknowledge it without alienating all of your TikTok followers. I mean, no, but there is. Like, listen, I've alienated plenty of them.

I've made plenty of videos where the next day my follower count drops by 5, 10,000 people. I was totally convinced. No, but it's true. There's not that many Jews in the world. And we are a threatened people cyclically. And if we won't stand up for ourselves, no one else will. And if non-Jews hear that a Jew won't utter the words that I'm asking you to utter,

it's very difficult to convince them that we're not the bad guys in this situation. And I know this sounds corny, but you need to think about that. There's not that many Jews in the world. You are a Jew. I am. And you should not, unless you don't believe it, it's fine not to believe it.

But if you believe it, but you're afraid to say it, you're like living, breathing example of exactly the Jews who got Jews into trouble periodically in history. The Jews who were afraid to...

who were sucking up. Let's spell it out. Sucking up to anybody. Sucking up to the non-Jewish world, not wanting to be too Jew-y, not wanting to make waves. You know the old joke where the guy, how does it go, Dan?

Being executed, there's a firing squad, and one asks for a cigarette, and the other one says, don't make trouble. Yeah, he said, don't make trouble. You don't want to make trouble. I feel like I am making trouble, though. And I feel like I have said what you have asked in his defense he's gotten a lot he's gotten a lot of hostility from jews so he is well oh you're a stupid faggot drop dead i'm gonna kill you well in other words he is willing he is willing to take he is willing to take shit he's just not

willing to take shit from the other side i That's not true, though. I get shit from them all the time. For what? For saying that Israel, that I want two states, that I want there to be peaceful coexistence. I get shit all the time for saying stuff like that. People want to say, oh, does Israel have the right to exist? Israel exists. It's a

thriving country, okay? It has its problems, but I want it to exist without doing so over... Dan I want it to exist without doing so over, like, under the rights abuses of other people. Does Dan have a right to exist? Well, he exists. No, that's not the same thing as saying he has a right to exist. It's cowardly. Of course he has a right to exist. Does any country have a right to exist?

Yes. Yes, that's the world we live in. We live in a world of international law. Well, fine, but you can't pick and choose. If you want to tell me that the settlements are illegal, then yes, Israel has a right to exist. You can't say the settlements are illegal, but countries don't have

a right to exist. You can't say international law matters when I want to call the settlements illegal, but countries don't have a right to exist. I mean, I don't call them illegal. Yeah, you call them in this podcast. No, but I'm saying this isn't a thing that's my, that I made that distinction. They're illegal.

They're illegal based on... Dude, don't ever call the settlements illegal again if you're not ready to say the countries have a right to exist because it's the same legal system which gives countries a right to exist that says the settlements are illegal. Period. There's no way out.

I mean, I don't want these settlements. They are illegal according to Israel's own laws. And Israel has a right to exist. As much as any place has a right to exist. Yes. Yes, as much as any place has a right to exist. Israel has as much a right to exist as any place

has a right to exist. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Okay. Podcasted content. We are in big trouble. Who's we? has a right to exist. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Okay. Podcasted content. We are in big trouble. Who's we? The Jews. The American Jews

are peeling off like... I mean, I disagree. I think what I do is good for the Jewish people. I think what I say is good for Jews. I think... How is this...

How is the other way... How is that, now you sound like my followers. How is the other way done better for us? Have you been to Israel? Yes. Yeah, there's a thriving democracy there with prosperity, freedom, free press, homosexual rights. By the way, Arab Israelis are commensurately represented in hospitals as doctors as to their population. Did you know that? I mean, a very, very successful, much more successful than America has been in terms of empowering minorities. And, of course, there's issues of racism and bigotry, which is part of the human condition.

But, no, I think Israel has done very, very well. And of course, we don't know the counterfactual, which is what would the last 75 years of Jewish history been if there had been no Israel? It wasn't going great. I mean, I don't know what it would be, but I know it like I don't want Israel to keep getting bombed. I don't want people to keep dying. I don't want these people to keep living in fear. And I don't want these people who, like we mentioned, are related to be at odds in each other's growth. Okay, we have to wind it up because the guy who has to edit this for time to go on the radio is Polish, right?

And he doesn't need any more excuse to be. Well, you know, I wanted this to be a special episode because I don't know that it's necessarily appropriate for the serious show. I mean, it may be all we have. I have an appointment at 7. What kind of appointment do you get? It's none of my business. Podcast at Comedy Cellar. Don't you hate it when people say, what are you kind of a. I'm into the champagne.

I mean, he could be. Thank you for having having me nice talking to you it was good right thank you for sharing your perspective send me your send me your um podcast at comedyseller.com was this was this show uh something you enjoyed was it not do you want to get back to to uh more talk about transgender rights or comedy? Let us know. Thank you, Perry L. Ashenbrand. As usual, you and I were both quieter than normal today. I thought that would happen because I knew once Noam

got wound up, it would be hard to... In any case, thank you, Jonathan, for coming and thank you for the champagne. Jonathan's TikTok account, I guess is that Jonathan Randall? I don't know. Yeah, on everything social media. American Jew is his podcast that he hosts with Jordan Ferber and they talk about all

manner of Jewish things. He could be the next Modi. We don't know. Definitely not. Probably not, given his politics, but he might find a niche amongst progressive Jews. Thank you, Nicole Lyons. Nicole, are you awake?

I'm here. I thought maybe you'd be asleep by now. That's it. Thank you very much. Bye-bye.