The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Josh Gondelman, Sarah Cooper, and Mehran Khagani

Episode Date: September 14, 2018

Josh Gondelman is a comedian who recently won his third consecutive Emmy for writing for John Oliver. Sarah Cooper is a comedian and author of two books, "How to Appear Smart in Meetings" and "How to Be Successful Without Hurting Men's Feelings". She also composed the viral article, "10 Tricks to Appear Smart in Meetings." Mehran Khagani is a New York City-based standup comedian. He may be seen performing regularly at the Comedy Cellar.

You're listening to The Comedy Cellar, live from the table, on the Riotcast Network, riotcast.com. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to The Comedy Cellar Show here on Sirius XM Channel 99. My name is Noam Dorman. I'm the owner of The Comedy Cellar. You may have read about him in Hollywood Reporter. I'm here with Mr. Dan Natterman, my co-host, and we have some guests already. Josh Gondelman is a comedian who just won his third consecutive Emmy. Thank you very much for having me. Writing for The John Oliver Show.

Congratulations. I didn't know that. Thank you very much. It's very exciting. He's also newly married, which I think is interesting. Hold on. Sarah Cooper is a comedian and author of two books. And something is how to appear smart in meetings and how to be successful without hurting men's feelings.

I wish my wife would read that. And she also composed the viral article, 10 Tricks to Appear Smart in Meetings. Hello. How are you? Hello. Hello, Sarah. Noam, I do want to address up front. I'm a little anxious, by the way.

That may or may not be obvious from my vocal quality. But I'm doing Around the Corner. We're doing, tonight, we're taping for the new Comedy Cellar show, This Week at the Comedy Cellar on Comedy Central. That's right. And the idea is that we do topical jokes that we've written for the week's events, whether it be the Kavanaugh nomination for a Supreme Court, whether it be the Serena Williams meltdown at the U.S. Open, and so on and so forth.

Now, I'm always nervous doing new material, but, Noam, the question I have for you is, does the audience around the corner know that it's a taping? Yes. They do know? Yes. Okay. Yes, they do. Was that on the web? Because I didn't see it on the website. No, we tell them when they get here. Okay, because it's obviously

important that they know that they're hearing jokes that haven't been necessarily done before, so their expectations are appropriate. But I wouldn't do just I would do some of your act, too. Well, I'm doing both. And also because we're all going to be hitting a lot of the same topics. And by the third joke about Serena Williams, the audience might be like, why is everybody talking about Serena Williams?

So it's better if they know up front. But you're saying that they do, and I accept that. We've also been joined by Mehran. How do you pronounce it? Kegani. Kegani. He was thrown out with the Shah a number of years ago from Iran. He's a loud Persian comic

who works here at the Comedy Cellar. So, I'm sorry, let me... You need it plugged in? Hey! Hey! All right, not too loud. Talk, Maren. I apologize.

Are you also doing the show later? I am. I am. I'm going for a second round of it. Oh, a second round. Yeah. So send me more topics. I'm doing tonight, too.

Okay. Sarah's the outsider here. I just wanted to talk briefly about the Comedy Central. Are you finished with that? Well, I guess so. They're going to love you no matter what. Let's be gracious. She's new here. She wrote an article

on how to 10 ways to sound smart in meetings. 10ays to Sound Smart in Meetings? Yeah. All right. 10 Tricks to Appear Smart in Meetings. Okay. So tell us. Tell us how to appear smart in meetings.

Okay. Are you guys in a lot of meetings? Do you guys do meetings? I do a lot of meetings. You do a lot of meetings? Yes. Okay. Very seldom.

Do people give presentations in your meetings? No. No. Well, I've given presentations, but people in the audience, I'm sure. Well, one way to look smart without having to pay attention is just to ask the presenter to go back one slide. So that makes it look like you're going to point something out on that slide that everyone else missed. Wait a minute. Give me an example.

Okay. So someone's giving a presentation. You go, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Could you just go back one slide, please? This is amazing. It sounds right. And then you just look at the slide like you're trying to add up some numbers or something.

And then you go, okay, yeah, we can move on. That's great. And that just makes it look like you're really paying attention even though you are probably asleep. So that was one trick that I like to use a lot in meetings. Sarah, I will say, by the way, that this is wonderful advice, by the way. I'm fascinated. But I would just say that comedians, when we do meetings, our goal is not to look smart, necessarily.

Isn't it, though? No, it's not at all. Like, if we start talking about, well, I think that statistically the demographic for the show that I'm presenting to you, we won't get anywhere. Well, here's the thing. I had a day job. I worked at Google for almost four years.

And I didn't pay attention at all because I cared more about comedy and other stuff. And so when you're not paying attention in meetings, you need to make it look like you're paying attention. You've got to pay attention, but I think as comedians, we don't want to look too... Nothing turns a person off than a comedian thinking he's smart. Unless that's what they're going for, like a real egghead Colbert kind of thing. Right. But for most of it, like David Tao, we're not expecting... He's brilliant, but we don't expect him to be smart.

We expect him to talk about Johnny Ranchers. So it's a whole different thing. Okay. Next. But your point is well taken with regard to normal people. Yeah, normal people or people who have day jobs. Another good one is to translate percentages into fractions. Wait, can you just go back to the first one for a second?

Very good. Very good job. That was awesome. That was awesome. You nailed it. You nailed it. I think you're so smart now. But did you feel the tension in the room when he was like, wait, wait, wait, wait?

You know, like he just looked like he was. You were the only one who caught it. You were immediately on the uptake. I'm like, oh, yeah. Translate percents into fractions. Yeah, so like if someone says 25% of people clicked on this button, you could be like, oh, about one in four. Interesting.

If nobody brings up a percent or a fraction, do you just like 80%? That's four-fifths. Do you just like bring one up on your own? You could. That was showing off, right? It's similar to Google. wouldn't you just get booed for that kind of simple math? Oh, no. You get props for any kind of quick math

that you're doing on the top of your head. What about translating everything into base two? Damn. I don't even know what that means. What did you do at Google? I was a designer. Oh. I designed...

What did you design? Google Docs. You guys use Google Docs? I do. Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah. I use Google Search. That's Google...

I call it Google Classic. That's base Google. Base two is the ones and zeros, the binary... So in other words, like... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ten and base two is actually two. Right.

Like one zero and base 2 is 2. You know what? You're looking so smart right now that I just have no respect for you. As a comedian, you have no respect for me. But you'll definitely hire me as a programmer. Okay. As long as you only have to program two things. Or ten things.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so that's it. Anything else about how to look smart? What's the... Oh, you want more tricks? What's the most important one?

We don't want to give away the whole thing. We want people to come read the article. Oh, no. You don't have to read the article. But, yeah, I mean, all right, I'll try to...

Let's see. Pacing around the room is a good way to look smart. You don't have to say anything. Not just like a social disorder? You wouldn't just identify that person as maybe the shooter? If he was the shooter. You don't have to say anything. Not just like a social disorder? You wouldn't just identify that person as maybe the shooter? The shooter.

Someone's just pacing all the time. I will do like my daughter, like, looks mommy, daddy's pacing around the patio again. The way you're describing it, Maron, sounds like you're like pacing while putting on and taking off leather gloves. Yeah. Or in the violin case. All of that.

No, no, no. What you're doing is you're going over to the window and you're leaning against the wall and you're taking a deep sigh. It looks like you're contemplating something. Like a classic Don Draper. You mix yourself a drink. You can't do that these days, but yeah, Don Draper would do that. So pacing around the room is a good one.

If someone gets up from the table, you're like, what is he doing? What is he thinking? Where is he going? So, Sarah, were you working at Google when this dude wrote that open letter about females? No, I had already left at that point. Did you speak to anybody who was still there when it happened? Well, yeah, my husband still works there.

And what was his feeling about it? My husband's feeling about it? I don't really... It was like two years ago, wasn't it? Yeah. I think he, it was one of the, what? Time goes fast. It seems like yesterday.

Yeah. It was one of those things where like he had to be fired because he created an uncomfortable working situation. The thing with Google is everyone reviews everyone else. So the way to get promoted is that other people give you performance reviews. And so if someone's reviewing him or he's reviewing someone else, he wrote this thing saying this is what he thinks

of how women work. Any review of a woman from him is tainted at that point. So really, there is absolutely no way to keep him because of that one simple fact. Would they have fired somebody for... That point makes sense to me. I hadn't heard that point. But would they have come down the same way if, like, Sarah Jung style, somebody said something about white men?

Oh, what would they say about white men? Would they have fired a minority woman, let's say, who had said disparaging things about white males and say, well, now she can't review white males? Seems like they wouldn't, right, in this day and age. I'm not sure, but I don't think

a minority woman has written a thing that says white men suck. Based on what you said, I think it's actually a legitimate reason for firing. If everybody has to review each other, it sounds right to me. But it bothers me that it wouldn't work. It doesn't seem like it would work both ways. It should be fireable for intellectual laziness.

It's just being like, white men are the worst. And it's not to say that white men aren't the worst. But it is to say that it's just so photocopied. Do you really believe white men are the worst? No. Straight white men are the worst. I believe. I love straight white men.

My husband's a straight white man, so I can say that. I love your husband, too. So is Mehran's. He's not wrong. He's not wrong. He's not wrong. I am such an arch conservative that I actually believe that humans are humans and there's good and bad in everyone and that nobody has a monopoly or a deficit when it comes to good and evil in their race. That's what I believe.

Oh, yeah. I think that that's true, too, but it's just that throughout history, people have been treated differently. Imperialistically, white men are the worst. Throughout history, people have been treated differently. It depends what country you're in, I suppose. If we're just talking about the U.S., people

have been treated differently. The Japanese would argue that the Chinese, or the Chinese would argue the Japanese are the worst, I would imagine, and the Hulus might argue that the Tutsis are the worst or vice versa i'm not sure which one i've got some ideas about which races now did i say hulu i think i'm saying i think hulu's will say the netflix we were talking about this like you know i'm jewish and with you know i'm first generation so you know i'm full of stories from my grandparents and my fathers of being treated badly as Jews and not being able to get jobs and all kinds of stuff.

But I don't carry any of that as a grievance against somebody, some white guy who was born today based on the fact that he has. I just don't see it that way. Sure. Well, yeah. I mean, you shouldn't carry around grievances. But at the same time, I mean, you have to accept the fact that people, like, we've never had a female president. That's true. That's true. Most CEOs are men.

You have to accept the fact that there are certain people that are in power, period. And if women and men, I want them to be equal. But it's just that if you look at history, they haven't been treated equally. Yeah. But to get back to my point, but that's not to say that Josh Gondelman, you cannot draw one conclusion about Josh Gondelman as opposed to the black guy sitting next to him because white guys have- There is no black guy sitting next to him. No, I'm just saying hypothetically. That's not because I'm racist.

It's just how we're sitting. You can't do that because of anything that's happened in history by white men. That's what I'm saying. And that is what happens all the time. He is his own human being and we should judge him. And a fine one by my opinion.

Thank you, Dan. The life that he has, the moral life that he's lived for himself. Aren't you a little bit more impressed when someone, if there are two people climbing a mountain and one does it with a 50-pound bag on their back, aren't you kind of more impressed with the guy who does it with a 50-pound bag?

I'm not going to insult Josh by that. Hey, whoa, whoa, whoa. A little prejudice to get a little prejudice to be a little bit better. I would like to hear... Yes, you're making my point. Of course, you judge somebody by the 50-pound bag. Yeah, you judge them by their real life, who they are.

That 50-pound bag could be on somebody white. It could be on somebody black. It could not be on the wealthy child of Kanye West. And it could be very much on an Appalachian child growing up white. It's not about the race. It's about the life of the human. Is that such a radical concept? I actually don't have a problem with that.

I think it's like if you heft us pound for pound. And I mean strip it all down. A person's racial burden is their racial burden, but then... What were we just talking about? I have a half-black stepchild. I raised him. He's 24 years old. If he's going to try to claim that something in his life is...

No, you have no excuse, Nicholas. You grew up with me, all right? You had every advantage in life. That's it. Yeah. So that's all I'm saying. If he had a hardscrabble lifestyle, of course, that would be his 50-pound weight. Yeah.

I mean, I have two sisters that both have serious disabilities. And that was my dad's attitude toward them, which was it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that you need a hearing aid to hear. It doesn't matter that you have a learning disability. You need to get as far as you can get and not worry about anything getting in your way. Did that help them or hurt them? Yeah, that's the question. That's the question. I think that it did help them a good deal. But at the same time, I think that they needed that other softer side, which is to say, yeah, this is a bit harder for you. You walk around and people do look at you differently and people do treat you differently. And just that

acknowledgement, just that acknowledgement and understanding, I think helps as well. So I think we need both. I would acknowledge it, like with Nicholas, if I saw it, but that's not the problem. The problem is he doesn't get up on time. He doesn't answer the thing. He doesn't take care of his thing.

He doesn't get to the job interview. He doesn't wear a belt. He doesn't like, this is not... Your racial grievances are very familial. It's all. Yeah. If he went on an interview and I thought that he was being, I got the sense that he was not being treated fairly because of his skin tint.

Yeah, of course. I would, I'd go nuts. I would be there screaming and yelling at his behalf. Right. Sure. Right. Because you believe that he should be treated the same no matter what he looks like, and that's right. But he's got to get himself to the interview.

That's the point. And that seems to be a challenge in our house. Can I ask you where your people are from, Sarah? My people are from Jamaica. Jamaica. I was born in Jamaica. She is very hard to put in. I can say this because I don't have a dog in this race.

You're beautiful, right? Oh, thank you. She's exquisite. Ha ha, I get to say things like that to women. I thought you could have been Indian. I know, I get to say things like that to women. I thought you could have been Indian. I know, I get Indian. She was going to be Indian. I get Mexican.

I get Guatemalan. But Jamaica is not an ethnic group. People in Jamaica can be white. Chinese. My grandmother was Chinese. They can be Chinese. They can be, of course, of African. That's the exotic look.

They can be of African descent. Yeah, and my other grandmother was German. So, yeah, I'm all kinds of mixed. And the others are of African descent? Yeah, African, Indian American, or Native Indian. So Jamaica doesn't quite tell us a whole lot.

So you're four-eighths African and... I'm not Chinese enough to do the math on that. Ah! I thought that was funny. And four-sixteenths Chinese and four-sixteenths

Caucasian. You're converting fractions on their fraction. That's not part of the game. So that's a quiet, you're the future of America. This is what America's going to look like in 100 years. Won't that be wonderful when everybody looks the same? It'll be so much easier, right?

That's what Tucker Carlson wants. He wants everyone to look the same. He wants everybody to look white. But I'm saying, it's not He wants everyone to look the same. He wants everyone to look white. But I'm saying, when we all it's not just the look will be the same, but culturally, like, I mean, I think intermarriage would be a wonderful thing for the country.

You apparently don't like diversity, Noam, because you want everyone to be one hue. Wouldn't it be better if we had diversity and you had white people and you had black people and you had Chinese people? I don't see how the flip side of emphasizing

diversity... By the way, I'm being devil's advocate because people that champion diversity also say what Noam is saying and it's a contradiction. I feel, I am wary, I worry that the emphasis on diversity that is contained within that is the seeds of people

separating themselves from each other. It's never been quite clear to me. It's a tough line to draw where you say, well, our differences are what define us, yet we're all going to get along great. As opposed to when I was a kid when we were all kind of, the diversity was kind of

kept in our homes. But then when we went to school with the black kids and the Italian kids, whatever it was, we didn't, that wasn't, that wasn't out,

that wasn't a priority. We tried to be all one schoolyard, you know, that was, that was the goal. I don't know. I'm from suburban Massachusetts.

Like I said many times on the show already, we look out at the immigrants in the world and we say, we cannot distinguish between any immigrant, color, nationality, religion, doesn't matter. It's all the same. Whoever gets here should be able to come in. But once you're here,

only 20% of you at Harvard, no more Asians at Harvard. So all of a sudden, it didn't matter. We couldn't even consider they were Asian when they wanted to come in. But when they come here now, it's the most important thing in their college application. That doesn't hold together. It doesn't. And I'm waiting for somebody to explain it to me.

And then I'll be aboard. To me, there's a difference between being a refugee and applying to a private university. Refugees are something else on time. Oh, sure, sure, sure. I didn't know. Normally when I hear people, not that you are boxing out, but who go box out certain types of people,

it includes refugees. But I would say, well, refugees are immigrants in one sense, but they're people that need help. You get to applaud that person, for the refugees, they're immigrants in one sense, but they're not... Right, right, right. But there's like a different... And you get to applaud that person for hiking the mountain with their 50-pound bag.

You have to be like, only Sherpas should be allowed in. Only Sherpas. Only Sherpas. The heaviest bags. I am surprised to hear Noam espouse what he's espousing insofar as everybody

being mixed together because that would mean nothing less than the destruction of the Jewish people. Why can't you be Jewish and mixed together? Because it doesn't work.

But my children, why doesn't it work? But my children, my daughter could almost, she's a little bit lighter than Sarah. Yeah, but you're assuming your daughter is going to have

any... Mom's Indian. Noam made, it was very important to Noam, I'm explaining to Sarah. When Noam's kids were born, it was very important because the wife's not Jewish that Sarah when Noam's kids were born it was very important

because the wife's not Jewish that the kids be Jewish but if the mother's not Jewish I thought that the kids couldn't be Jewish my bad my bad my bad

well no what Noam did is he went to a rabbi and the rabbi said abracadabra alakazam as they do which is Hebrew

abracadabra bam and bluish and he and he dunked he dunked them in a in a mikv which is like a baptism, but for Jews, and said, okay, now you're Jewish. And now Noam is satisfied with that. What he doesn't get is that these kids will probably grow up not feeling very Jewish. Right.

Didn't you tell me something? Yeah. Just now? Don't the kids start Hebrew school soon? My wife, God bless my wife. Let me tell you something. It's her. She wouldn't even think about converting to Judaism.

She wants them to go to Hebrew school because she wants them to learn about it. Well, that's great. They're going to have the same confusion I had because I'm Jamaican. When I came here, I'm black, but my parents didn't think of themselves as black. So they never referred to themselves as black. So they never like referred

to themselves as black. They always talked about black people. Like there were other people that were black and they weren't black. And so I was very confused. I didn't know what we were like. I have this, I have this joke where I'm like, I'm walking around a mall with my dad and he's like, look, Sarah, look at those black people over there. And I'm like, dad, that's a mirror. That's us. They just don't see themselves because they always just thought of themselves as Jamaican. And so it's just a weird identity crisis that it

sounds like they might have. I don't think they'll have it. Go ahead, sorry. You try selling the Japanese on the notion that they should just vanish as a people and you might get some pushback there. I mean...

I just did my 23andMe. I want to... When I make babies and I'm going to be in the market for that soon, I want to make an Iranian baby. Well, listen, that is a human instinct in all of us. Is it?

I'm going to tell you something just to answer Dan. First and foremost, even more than the Jewish people, Dan, I care about America and it's becoming and continuing to be a unified nation. And it seems to me that if that's the priority, then the more that the people within America would intermarry and interbreed, the quicker we could get to being a unified nation again.

That's just... It would be in line with the spirit of the actual country. Yes, yeah. And if you don't want to, you can go to Israel. Thank God you have Israel there now. The Jewish people... If you don't want to do that, go live in Israel. That's the way I feel about it.

Yeah, Dan, if you don't have interracial children, you are being deported. Well, no, I was only saying, I'm not saying I'm against it, I'm saying I was surprised to hear that you speaking that way because of the importance that you accord to your children being Jewish. Yeah, but, you know... Because I think Jewish people have a lot of pressure

because there's only 11 million Jews, 11 to 15 million Jews in the world. I feel like there's pressure to... Well, we've had some problems with numbers in the past. Yeah. like there's pressure to Google statistics. We've had some problems with numbers in the past. Yeah. What are you talking about? Josh Gottman, well this leads us into

Josh Gottman just got married. I did. And I believe to a Jewish woman. To a Jewish woman, yes. Which is unusual, by the way, in the comedy business. Most Jewish comedians marry out. And I think it's because if I had to hazard a supposition, I'm trying to sound

smart. Can you go back to the point? What percentage of Jewish comedians? And I'll flip it to a fraction. I would say that most Jewish comedians have issues with their family or they wouldn't be doing comedy. And I would further say that a Jewish partner reminds them of their family and then

thus I would conclude that that is the reason that most Jewish comedians that I know, whether it be Rich Voss or Rachel Feinstein, who just married an Irishman over the weekend. Mike Birbiglia. Mike Birbiglia has married a Jewish woman, but he's not Jewish. That's why I believe we see a high percentage of intermarriage in the comedy world, but not Josh Gondelman. It could just be Jewish women, but anyway, go ahead. not Josh Gondelman. It could just be Jewish women, but go ahead. Not Josh Gondelman. I get along well with my family, so that

would fit with your theory. Because I'm not trying to create this. I get along with my family, and I feel I need to escape as well. I understand that. That said, I'm not married and probably won't ever be married. I have to say Josh's wife is extraordinarily cool. She's very cool. I'm putting that out into the universe. She's got to be. I've had drinks with this girl. She have to say, Josh's wife is extraordinarily cool. She's very cool.

I'm putting that out into the universe. I've had drinks with this girl. She is fun and smart and capable. It's an A-plus girl. She's the best. Can we talk about the Emmy? Sure. Now, more than the Emmy, which is, first of all, must make you feel like a million dollars.

And if you ever have a bad set, you say, fuck them. I have three Emmys it's very thrilling a bad set will still destroy me my question is what is the what is the John Oliver writing room like in terms of the PC

stuff that we're seeing today for instance if I polled the writing room would they think that it was a good thing that Norm MacDonald was disinvited from the Tonight Show, or would they have said no? He was disinvited? Yeah. Let him go up there and say what he wants. I don't know. I'm not... I can't speak

for everybody else. I think we try to generally look at things and let the story spell out what we do, rather than coming from a preconceived notion of something. Personally, I don't know. I always feel like it's tough because Jimmy Fallon can invite or disinvite who he wants.

Of course he can. But he's making a big cultural statement when he does. It's a statement. As opposed to when Michael Richards said, inward, inward, inward. Within a few days, he was on the Letterman show. Because it was for Mia Coppola. Yes, exactly. He came back to apologize.

That's the paper he was doing in an apology jar. He came back to be asked about it. If he didn't apologize, that would be good television, too. I'm guessing he cashed in favors to be able to apologize. If I were rolling the dice on that one.

It was not. But Norm Macdonald did apologize. Yeah, I think that that's... If I were rolling the dice on that one... It was not... But Norm Macdonald did apologize. Yeah, I think he still... And he watched him what he said back. And he still didn't let him on the show. You saw his most recent statement. No, that was later, but the tweet... Wait, what happened later? I didn't see it. You can say it. Go ahead. He said, uh... He said,

I obviously am for the Me Too movement. You would have to have Down Syndrome to not be for the Me Too movement. That's a very norm thing to say. He doubled down so beautifully. Well, it's very norm of him. I mean, why? Do you find that scathing? At least he didn't say

you have to be retarded. I guess he didn't hear that. He got way more specific than retarded. He went after the most angelic retards. I don't like that kind of talk, but Oh my god. I hear it all the time on stage

from comedians, things like that. And I think that we should just have a thicker skin as a culture. Just because somebody says something they don't like doesn't mean he has to be banished down the memory hall. And I think that but he did give a nice apology the day prior

where he talked about how he would have never meant anything bad about the victims or whatever he said. And they still wouldn't let him on The Tonight Show. He had some advice for you, Noam. I don't know if you... They still wouldn't let him on The Tonight Show. And that to me is a change in the culture. And it seems to me there's two

lefts as opposed to rights in this country. One is kind of like the Bill Maher and I think the John Oliver left. I don't know John Oliver as well. Which are like, no, free speech, free speech, say what you want, say what you want. Bill Maher is very much like, he doesn't even want to see Alex Jones censored. And then there is people

who share much of the same like policy, politics as these people, but are very much like, no, we're gonna fascistly shape the culture so policy politics as these people but are very much like no we have we're gonna we're gonna fascistly shape the culture so only people only say people only should have to hear the things that we agree with that they should have to hear so sure i i think that there is there's a spectrum of of like what dan's on it a spectrum of what kind of speech people want to hear in different places but i also think think like, you know, Norm was disinvited from a television appearance. His Netflix show is still coming out.

He was. We don't know that. I mean, as of today. That could be in danger, too. As of today, it's still coming out. But like, let's not. If we can't go. Let's not jinx it.

Yeah. But you think his show should come out. Yeah. I'm sure there's plenty of people who think it should. I think he said some stuff that I was like, yikes, not great. But I don't know what the penalty is for all these things. But I do think losing one late night appearance that was scheduled the day you have a giant PR fuck up is not the worst thing to happen in the world. That's a consequence for an action.

I think it's the worst thing because in a different normal universe, the Fallon show would have been, holy shit, rating's going to be through the roof tonight. We have the hottest story in America and he happens to be coming on and we're going to ask him about it. Lock horns. Yeah, let's see what he's got to say. I'm not saying Fallon had to be easy on him. I wish that they had kept him on for sure.

I mean, that's one thing that I was really impressed with with Bill Maher. I didn't actually like that he was going to have Milo on, but whatever, I watched it anyway. And it was important for us to see him in that light. Exactly. And actually, that light helped expose him for who he is, which is just a giant troll.

And I think everybody needed to see that. So it's like we can't just run away. Sarah, in my opinion, you're absolutely right. And I don't understand why people don't see it. I don't understand why do you want the world filtered for you? What is so hard

about letting you see it and you decide what you think about it? Why does Jimmy Fallon have to decide what we think about it? Because it's a PR thing. I think like Josh was saying,

it's like if you have him on, it makes it look like you're not on the side of the victims. In the old days when I was a kid, like Geraldo had Nazis on and KKK members on. And this was good, interesting.

Doesn't Springer still have them? He might. And nobody ever said, oh, he shouldn't. It was good, interesting television. Geraldo treated Nazis as Nazis. He did not take it easy on them. Now, you said that Fallon doesn't have to take it easy on Norm if he invited on Norm, but maybe

taking it easy on people is Fallon's strong suit. I absolutely agree. It's just not his game. That's not why they didn't join the mob. They bowed to the Twitter mob and everybody knows it. Come on now. They need to have Serena interview him. Boom.

But if Fallon were more of an attack dog, then maybe he wouldn't have bowed. He doesn't want to get into that confrontation. I think you're right. Jimmy Fallon has a very gentle, encouraging show. He likes to muscle people's hair. That's what he wants to do.

And so if that's going to be his modus operandi, then we've got to let the guy go with what he does best, which is karaoke. Do you think it had nothing to do with public pressure? Of course it did. Well, that's my point. Okay, but I'm just saying that in addition to which... In addition doesn't matter, but for the public pressure, he would have had him on. Yeah, but he would have had him on, but he wouldn't have known how to question him appropriately given the circumstances.

What were you thinking? Why did you say that? I mean, that's how you'd question him. That's not even hard. You don't have to be hard. He's like, dude, you got in a lot of trouble. I think it's a missed opportunity. That's a good conversation to have.

If Alan doesn't want to do that, why don't Norm should go on another show? Maybe this podcast, for example. Norm MacDonald has some advice for me. You actually sound like him. Because I'm doing an imitation. So why'd you say that, Norm? Why'd you say that? No, he said that,

he mentioned the Comedy Cellar in a tweet, I guess, or in an interview with, I believe it was the Hollywood Reporter, I may be wrong. He said that Noam, I get Norm and Noam.

He said Noam, our Noam, Noam Dorman, should have given him their money back if any women were offended by Louis C.K. performing that night,

which was two weeks ago, I guess it was. He said Noam should have given him their money back. If any women were offended by Louis C.K. performing that night, which was two weeks ago, I guess it was, he said, no one should have given him their money back and, in addition, $200. And he was asked,

why $200? He said, because the women would be less traumatized if they could get a nice pair of shoes. Are you sure he said that? Well, that's what,

I'm not sure because I didn't hear it. That was the quote. But that was the quote. Where did you, that's the quote. Now, the question that comes to mind is, can you get a nice pair of shoes for $200?

I don't know this. If they're on sale. What? Of course you can. I can get like four pairs of shoes for $200. A nice pair. On sale. Okay, I don't know these things. I don't buy women's shoes.

And I don't buy men's shoes very often either. I have one pair. But I don't buy... And I forgot what they don't buy men's shoes very often either. I have one pair. But I don't buy... And I forgot what they cost. One pair, Natterman. I don't buy women's shoes. Well, you have millions of shoes. I've less than one pair of women's shoes.

Balls. Oh, balls. Yeah, no, I'm bearless. But what do you say about a guy that he's already in hot water for showing what is regarded as insensitivity to the Me Too movement, who says well, you can just buy a woman off with a nice pair

of shoes and she'll feel better about it. You know, triple down. He is who he is. I don't know. Something about that you gotta respect. I'm a fan. But certainly as a practical matter, if he wants to get back into the good graces of the American public, it didn't seem like a particularly good move.

Maybe there's certain people that just aren't his audience, and that's okay. Isn't there something important also about being like, I don't doubt my own good intentions here. You all can scrutinize my language from here until the cows come home, but I trust that I'm an ally

to women, that I'm a decent enough person. You can run with a sound bite, but I actually think that I'm good enough to person. You can run with a sound bite, but I actually think that I'm good enough to make fun of everything. It's so much better for a man to just say who he is than try to pretend that he cares or pretend to be a feminist

and get us on his side and then all of a sudden, he's actually not that way underneath. So actually, I would appreciate more people, if they're like Norm and they feel that way, just say it. Just be that way.. So actually, I would appreciate more people, if they're like Norm and they feel that way, just say it. Just be that way. There we go.

There we go. I am being kicked. Just for the record, I am being kicked off of this program right now. Well, Josh, alpha male,

what's it like? That's me. Oh, what's it like? I mean, just crushing it all day long. It feels amazing. Tara,

how would you define a male? What is a feminist to you? What does feels amazing. Tara, how would you define a male? What is a feminist to you? What does it mean to you for a man to be a feminist? Because I think I'm actually quite a feminist, but you might disagree. Go ahead. Oh, no. I think my husband's a feminist.

In what way? What would he disagree with a non-feminist about? A non-feminist? What would be the contrast between what makes him a feminist and what makes another man not a feminist? Well, I mean, he just feels like men and women should be treated equally and he also just doesn't get offended by like a woman saying like saying that basically because i think a lot of men feel that that women hate them or that women want men to have things taken away from them or you know down with the patriarchy all that stuff they feel intimidated down with the patriarchy, all that stuff. They feel intimidated.

And he doesn't feel intimidated by that stuff. Do you feel, do men feel that, men feel that way? Have you heard? He's not even making eye contact with me. I don't know. You know, some men might. Well, certainly some women do feel that way, I would imagine. Have you heard any men express what she, she's projecting onto some non-feminist men a certain mentality?

I'm wondering if you've heard that. Sure, yeah, I've heard. So what have you heard? What kind of things like that? I mean, I think that there are sentiments that are men who feel like the idea of, what's that, God, there's that expression of like,

when you're used to, I'm fucking butchering it, but it's like when you're used to, I'm fucking butchering it, but it's like when you're used to having everything, equality feels like oppression. And I think there's a sentiment of that. And I think there's a strain of it. I'm not saying like every person feels that way. Right, they think it's a zero-sum game.

If we're going to be equal, that means something has to be taken away from me. Well, it is a zero-sum game insofar, not a zero-sum game, but for example, here at the Comedy Cellar, the gnome tries to book whoever away from me. Well, it is a zero-sum game insofar, not a zero-sum game, but for example, here at the Comedy Cellar, Noam tries to book whoever's the funniest.

And it so happens that our schedule is approximately 80% men. Now, there are women that feel that this is wrong and it should be 50% women. Now, if it's 50% women... That's 1620ths, by the way.

It's not. It's one out of two. Jesus. If it's 50% women... That's 1620ths, by the way. It's not. It's one out of two. Jesus. If it's 50% women... No, 80%. If it's 50% women, that means some men will lose their spots here. And so they will lose out.

Okay. But we've had shows... Sure. But if we're booking both... If we're booking the funniest and 50-50, well, that's the contradiction. If the booking the funniest and 50-50. Well, that's the contradiction. If the funniest happens to be 50-50, great! But what if the funniest is not 50-50? Well, here's

the thing. And many women will say no, we want 50-50. I want to let you know that he doesn't talk over you because you're a woman. No. He just talks over everybody. Everybody talks over everybody. Who's judging how funny the women are? because you're a woman? No. He just talks over everybody. Go ahead. It's fine. Everybody talks over everybody. As does Noam. You know, who's judging

how funny the women are? No, the audience. Well, do other, is it 50-50 women in the audience? Pretty much. Well, I mean, then it's okay.

I mean, my only thing would be like is if men were saying that women weren't funny, maybe the women are making jokes that men just don't get. Our industry is also

not 50% women. Like, by any means. Even at the entry level. I book a weekly bar show with much looser standards in the cellar. You know what I mean? Yeah. And, like, every week I'm aching

for, like, just, like, names of female talent. I heard John Haidt on some podcast this week, and, you know, he's been a guest here, and he made a point, which I think is very important, which is that when you look at outcomes and try to draw conclusions from outcomes, you're into

some very risky conclusions. You have to look at the whole pipeline. You really have to look from the beginning how many women are aspiring to be comedians. Because by the time it gets to the comedy seller, we're just dealing with the people who come out the other end of the pipe.

And that might be much fewer women than if I was intervening four years earlier in their career. I don't know what goes on in the bar shows or whatever it is. And I've even heard some female comics say that they suspect that just inherently stand-up

comedy draws more men where other aspects of comedy draw more women. I've heard females say that. I don't know what it's like. But I know that I'm very... If I go to hell when I grow older, when I die...

When you grow older. When I die, when I grow old and die, it will not... At 75. It will not be because I was sexist towards judging female comics. I can guarantee you that.

I have no guilt about that whatsoever. The truth is, when there's such heavy pressure for diversity out there, we're dying for every funny female comic. When a female comic cancels, we're like, oh, shit. What are we going to do? So, no. That's right. Yeah.

That's right yeah that's right he would hire 10 Jessica Cursons if he could absolutely and like I'm on the lookout for a funny trans comic now because I'm getting

blasted all the time why don't you have a trans comic why don't you have a I don't know a trans comic what do you want from me I don't know one you know I did see one online I know a handful

but they were not funny. Well, you bring one down. You vouch for the mafia style, and we're going to put them up. But if they don't do well, then I don't get to nominate anyone else. Then you've got to get whacked. You've got to vouch.

That's what happens when you vouch for somebody. Do you think that male feminists are often just pretending to be male feminists are often just pretending to be male feminists to get laid? Pussy! Because I'm suspicious of any male that's a little too rah-rah

girl power. Oh, me too. Oh, absolutely. Hashtag me too, for sure. I mean, I argue with them on Facebook all day long. I should probably that, they, when I, I mean, I argue with them on Facebook all day long. I should probably get a hobby

other than that, but, you know, I'm always just very suspicious of those. I'm actually suspicious of any extremists.

Anybody who's too much in one direction, I'm a little suspicious of, to be honest. I like Sarah. She's excellent. She's awesome.

It's just like, like, the world is lousy with performative morality right now. For Josh's sake, what does performative mean? I don't know what that means.

What does performative mean? Here's this opportunity. It's not just virtue signaling. The right uses that a lot of times to shut other things down. But for me, you might have some kind of woke or liberal idea. Virtue signal to the left that you don't want to say. Go ahead.

Performative. I take it back. But the idea of performative morality is it's not just reflecting what it is that I feel. It's like now I'm going to use this moment. Everybody wants to be woke. Almost like milk and acting out of it. To also feel a passion. You know, it's not just what the

person thinks. It is also like they're channeling themselves into this. I think that happens when people get offended on behalf of other people. It's like it's not happening to you and that's kind of what you're talking about. It's like you get so offended but the person who it happened to actually is fine with it but you're so offended for that person.

Oh my God, this happened at my house in the backyard because it had, my mother was like an ultra left-wing. And we were talking about race and there were two black people at the gathering. And my mother was like dismissing

the stuff that they were saying. And I'm like, and one of them, my friend Rosalyn, like she grew up in Memphis, you know, within memory of segregation. I'm like, I was like, do you think you know better than they know about what should be offensive? And she had to take a step back like, oh, you know, maybe not.

That's another trick from my book actually. Ask everyone to take a step back. Yes. That's kind trick from my book, actually. What's that? Ask everyone to take a step back. Yes. That's kind of what you just did. Can I be a feminist with the following attitude? This is a very funny way to start this conversation. Can the following attitude be considered feminist? I have a daughter.

I want her to have every single fucking opportunity that my son has. Whatever it is. God help them if they don't let her do what she wants to do. But I want my son to be locked in the basement until he's 26. However, however, I believe

left to their own devices, she will probably not as likely go and make certain choices with her life as he will. I see it already. I think that there is still things that men gravitate more to conflict and certain professions

where they want to fight and vanquish the enemy, whatever it is, like finance. And I hear the stuff like, what do you want to be when you grow up? The things that my daughter talks about wanting to be, they're a little bit softer. I see it. So what I'm saying is I think there are differences between men and women.

Yeah, I think there are differences. And many feminists don't allow you to say that. I just don't know if it's from birth or if it's nature or nurture. I don't allow you to say that. I just don't know if it's from birth or if it's nature or nurture. I don't know if it's because of how they're treated and how they're socialized or it's because of innately who they are. It seems to be from birth to me. Because little kids, little boys and girls are pretty similar, right? No, they're not.

They're not? In my home, they're nothing like each other. From the time they were born, they were nothing like each other. And we've had this debate before, and I've read a lot of science about it. And the science seems to say, no, I mean, just like in every animal, just like in every animal, there's a certain programming for the men

and a certain programming for the female, male and female. And that's not better or worse. It's not equal or unequal. But things happen outside of those margins all the time. And it's probably important just to have a listening for that. In case the kid like who knows you may like in

five years she could get real butch whatever she wants whatever she wants like you said before if you're willing to listen to the individual then that's fine and I I mean not to tell you how to raise your children but I mean be a man Josh

but we were but I think that's it, right? Of like individual experiences on that gradient of like where things plot out. And then, and accounting for nature versus nurture. Like sometimes I think people make choices they wouldn't otherwise make because they're socialized in a certain way. And then other times it's just like, oh, this is my disposition and I do things this way. It's not a flawlessly predictive model. Certainly.

No, that's the nature of everything is on a curve. Yeah. And the outliers or even one end of the curve can totally overlap with the opposite end of a curve.

And so you have this big overlap of women who like certain things and men who like things that are, you know, that's life.

That's diversity. But, I mean, from the earliest time, my son just wants to play fight and watch superheroes and I can, I beg my daughter

because I read them stories together, like, she has to sit through a superhero story before she gets to the mermaid story and she does it

because she loves her brother. She listens to it every night. She will not take an interest in the superhero stories. Yeah.

I read them the same stories. Now, you know, it's like, I mean, whatever they want and it's been that way always. She just likes, the amount of time, the care already that she shows

for her own appearance, I have to say, took me by surprise. Like looking in the mirror, wanting her hair this way, wanting her hair that way, whatever it is. Nobody gave her that. Like it seems, it just hair this way, wanting her hair that way, whatever it is. Nobody gave her that.

Like it seems it's just now maybe. Nobody gave me that. Maybe I could have a straight son who was the same way. But, you know, my son is like typically he doesn't care what he looks like. He just doesn't care. Yes, Steven. I have a question. Yes.

Is it possible that your kids observed certain behaviors in you and your wife and they're just imitating those behaviors? Does Juanita spend more time in front of the mirror than you do? Is it possible that your kids observed certain behaviors in you and your wife, and they're just imitating those behaviors? Does Juanita spend more time in front of the mirror than you do? Yes, of course she does. It's possible, but I'm telling you, these things show themselves so early in their personalities. I believe that. When we talk about trans people, how they always felt a certain gender, if genders are the same, then that has no sense.

That's a good point, Dan. The idea of feeling like a man or feeling like a woman only has meaning if men and women are different. If there's a difference, I would. Yeah, I feel like a woman. Great song, right? Who sang that? Shania Twain. Shania Twain. She voted for Trump, I think.

So you can be a feminist and say that then. Yeah, I think you're okay. Do you consider yourself a feminist? We keep bombarding you with questions. Yeah, I definitely consider myself a feminist, yeah. You also said, by the way, that you had a book or you wrote something about how to get ahead without offending men. How to be successful without hurting men's feelings.

Well, that sounds like a tricky needle to thread, I dare say. Yes. Which is why we, by the way, have to appear stupid in meetings. We're in the same boat. Like, you can't let the producers think that you're smarter than them. Otherwise, the deal

is never going to happen. Oh, shit. Then I'm screwed. In order to write that book, you obviously have to know how to hurt a man's feelings. Wow. What are the best ways

to hurt a man's feelings? Well, laughing. Tell me. I like you as a friend. Laughing at them. Like at their genitals. Making them feel like they're... Yeah, at their genitals.

Oh, my God. But that's... I mean... Men don't... Women don't like to laugh at their vaginas either. That's not particularly male. I feel like a vagina

can take a laugh easier than a dick. Yeah, yeah. Vaginas can go through a lot. Yeah, yeah. They go through birth, they can take a laugh. Yeah, yeah. They go through birth. They can take a laugh. No, but is that unique to men, getting hurt feelings that way?

Yeah, I think so. Because I think, I mean, for me, like, you know, if my husband corrects me doing something, I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah, no problem. But if I correct him, sometimes it's okay, and sometimes it's not okay. He's not such a feminist. No, he's a feminist, but he's still a man. The worst way to insult a man is to let it be known that you don't consider him sexually viable.

Right. I believe that. Is that? Yeah. I believe that would be the worst way to insult a man. And that's kind of laughing at the genitals thing, too. Well, that's an extreme example. Although, if you're laughing at his genitals, that means you gave him a chance.

Yeah. You know, but, you know, I think the waitresses have that exact issue. They've got to be flirty. You know, and men flirt with them all the time. And I would imagine that they have to... Boy slurvers are such bigger sluts than girl slurvers. I was in the hospitality industry for ten years. Boy slurvers are way sluttier.

Wait, define hospitality. I was a the hospitality industry for 10 years. Boy servers are way slow. I was a prostitute. In a hospital. In a hospital in Kyoto. Hospice. Hospitality. Oh my God. People at the end of their lives.

He called it palliative care. No, I was just putting that out into the universe you were talking about the waitress dilemma I just wanted to put that fly in your ear because I was thinking that what you're saying is how to get ahead without insulting a man is

exactly what waitresses have to do every time a guy hits on them well how do I get a good tip but be flirty but not be too flirty so that he thinks that I'm interested. Right. Yeah, make them think that they're the king of the world and they can do whatever they want, but make sure they know that there are certain things that they can't do, but then, you know,

make them think, you know. It's just like, yeah, it's this game we play. And in business, it's the same thing. It's like you can, you know, say, like you can make it look like you know your stuff, but don't know your stuff too much because you don't want to make it seem like you're too smart, but then you want to seem smart. You know, it's got to be prepared but not too prepared.

To what extent do you think that these are important things? Like, they are the way the world is. Now, do these things need to be reformed or do we need to play ball with them the way they are right now? Well, I mean, the point of the book is that it's kind of like a tongue-in-cheek, like, you know, make sure to, like, pretend that it's okay you're explaining this to me one more time.

Just do all these things to not insult a man's ego. The whole point of everything I do is that this is not good advice. I want you to do the opposite of this. It's kind of like we need to forget about all these rules. A lot of women get all these conflicting rules like, oh, smile, but don't smile too much. Wear business stuff, but then that's too stuffy. Don't wear a skirt that's too short, but then don't wear pants.

It's just all these conflicting things, and women just need to let all of that stuff go, do whatever they want. I think that was the big problem with Hillary is that people told her to smile and she's not a smiler. And so if she had just gone with what I think was in her heart, which is just to not smile, I think that would have been better than her pretending that she was this pleasant person.

Okay, she's not a pleasant person. Don't be pleasant. You know? Barbara Thatcher never smiled more. Yeah. Right? No, she was herself. So let me ask you this. So you can say so that's your first negative quality one about men is that they're very prickly Yeah. Am I supposed to answer that or are you supposed to answer that? Well, it was interesting to me when you speak as you speak, and I'm not offended by it. I love it. Is that to a rational person, it would imply that, well, if it's okay to say these sort of generalizations about men, then certainly it ought to be okay to say generalizations about women.

But of course, it's not. As logic as time. Unless you say it. Yeah. Because you're a woman of color, so you have a pass. You can say it. Yeah. you say it because you're a woman of color so you have a pass you can say it yeah why don't you make your next book

like 10 ways the opposite whatever it is 10 ways to get ahead without hurting women I feel like the point is the men are ahead right

that's like the I've already had people write to me pissed off the book hasn't come out yet it's coming out October 30th

on Amazon Amazon yeah it's pre-order it pre-order it on Amazon give Matt for Halloween write to me pissed off. The book hasn't come out yet. It's coming out October 30th. On Amazon? Amazon, yeah. It's pre-order it. I'll pre-order it tonight. Give Matt for Halloween. I'll read it to my daughter at bedtime stories. Halloween.

But yeah, I've already gotten hate mail. It's better than raisins. If I wrote a book called How to Be Successful Without Hurting Women's Feelings, I'd be laughed out of every publishing house

in the city or whatever. Because no one cares about hurting women's feelings. No, but actually, if men could get ahead without being dicks, that would be amazing. That would actually be great. I think the interesting thing that the title points to, right, is that so many times it's women coming up against a system of men who they have to impress and prove themselves to, to make it happen, right? And I think if there was a world, or at least a realm in which you had to impress,

I mean, I think like for comics, right, it would be, some guys need a book called How to Succeed at Comedy Without Hurting the Women in the Audience's Feelings, right? Or just not talking about the horse. Oh, God. By the way, when you guys heard Dan tell the story about the thing about waitresses and you have to be flirt, did you think to yourself, God, I would never want to be Dan's

waitress? Like, I never felt no waitress ever had the pressure to flirt with me. Well, I think if you ask any of the waitresses here, you'll find that I Not only do I tip very well But I'm the perfectly gentleman

And they are the gentleman But I happen to know That when you're serving the male public You can get some rowdy customers Yeah I have some experience as a club owner And I can tell you That the hot waitresses

Of course they flirt and whatever it is. And, you know, it's like those experiments where the professor, one side of the room pays attention to the professor and the other side of the room doesn't. And before you know it, the professor is just reading to the side of the room that pays attention to him. He doesn't even realize why. I imagine you grow up as a hot woman and people treat you in a certain way. You play into that. Yeah. But, when I've had women who really couldn't trade on their hotness,

kind of, sorry for saying it, and what's like really like awesome waitresses, like really, really, really good, they made more money

than the hot waitresses. I believe that. And it always surprised me, like people threw money at these waitresses who were hustling and doing their jobs well. Ugly people have to work harder.

I wonder if people still flirted, though, in the same way that Dan's doing. I bet they still ended up having to field those kind of flirts, though. Waitresses across the spectrum of however people look, servers, I bet they get some flirting, too, that they have to play along with. They weren't ugly because the ugly people made less. No, I bet they get some flirting too that they have to play along with. They weren't ugly because the ugly people made less. It's the, no I'm kidding. It's also a hard job for whatever it's worth.

Juggling a bunch of tables. I couldn't do it. It's work. It's real work. People are not quite often as shallow as you take. It's true that men will throw money at a hot waitress. But there's other ways that humans will recognize and tip based on other qualities. They really will.

In my culture, if someone's ugly, we say God owes them money. So is that the waitress? The gay culture or the Persian culture? I was going to ask the same question. I mean, at the fat bar, when an ugly person comes in, we just throw nickels at them. Okay.

This is going to be the last topic. What were you about to say, Josh? What's that? Were you about to say something? So you and, for instance, Thomas Dale and a couple other... The gay guys. A couple of out-of-the-closet gay guys. You have your own take on this Me Too stuff, which I actually find is a little insensitive

to women. Oh, my God. Because it seems like you think that women should react to this kind of stuff the way you would in the same situation. No, no. And I don't think, yeah, and I don't think, like you say, well, guys will jerk off in front of me all the time. All the time.

Right. Were you in the Beatles? Oh, yeah. Don't you understand that that's different than when a big guy does it to a vulnerable woman? More than anything, the first thing I put on the table is that I'm incredibly permissive and that I'm at times sexually submissive. And performative. Super performative. We're all learning.

I really do. Performative is very real about me. But that is that's my unique way of being intimate. I don't expect that everyone is going to necessarily be that way, but me

being a permissive person means that when I hear that someone is a lot of times people clutch their pearls when they hear about extreme sex acts. Do you know what I mean? Like, I have a friend who gets paid 400 bucks to shit on people. I don't want to hear it.

This is my buddy. But, like, that's his job. He is a poop prostitute. And to me, I don't bat an eyelash at that. Like, I am not at all shocked by that. I would say my reaction to that has very little to do with my eyelashes. Right.

Well, no, sometimes it gets in there. But my point, like, I wish I in there. But my point, like... Oh, God. I wish I had pearls. But do you know what I mean? Like, I just think that some people are more shocked by sex and sexuality than others. And I am someone who is not that shocked by sex and sexuality. Will your friend come on this show, by the way?

Sure. Oh, my God, that would be great. I would. He's the best. He's brilliant actually and Jewish. You would love him. No no no I don't want to. He's so special. He's so special. That's your saying that's all he does?

A Jewish convert by the way. That's all he used to do. Because that's a hell of a specialty. Plus like how many hours a day can you work? No no no it's like they send a menu they tell you but I think that's Plus, how many hours a day can you work? No, no, no. They send a menu, they tell you. But I think that's... It's so disgusting.

It's so disgusting. Even to me, honestly, it's disgusting. But it is in my sense of what is possible sexually. Is that trauma or is that... The guy who's asking to be... The corpse on? I think corpse is value, I believe, is what they call ited on? I think coaxing is what they call it. He says I believe when he knows exactly what they call it.

But yeah, I don't know what the motivator is in that. I don't know what the... But do you think our reaction is... Is it bad that I'm super grossed out? There's nothing bad about it. There's nothing bad about it. It's just saying there is also diversity in terms of reaction

to these things. That there are people who will hear about some kind of sex act and be like, ah, that's not the worst thing in the entire world. I also respect that for someone it really is the worst thing in the entire world. But is that conditioning? Because you've seen it, you've heard about it, you're around it. Nature, here we are back to square one.

You're also, at the end of the day, despite the fact that you're gay, you're a man. And I'm a psychable man. I would say that's part of what makes you gay. That is to say you have certain feminine qualities, as does Josh Gondelman, as does Dan. You have the glossiest lips in comedy. I want you to know that. As do Dan. You have the glossiest lips in comedy. I want you to know that. As do I. We all have our, we're not the, you know, and know them or whatever, but.

Sarah? Sarah, you've got some feminine qualities. At the end of the day, as men, we have this in common. We're naughty. We're nasty by nature. Some of us more so than others. But most men are just nasty by nature compared to women. But I mean, that's the other thing, though.

And I mean, granted, the soul selects her own society and then shuts the door. I have attracted in my own life people who have similar mindsets. But the women who are my closest friends are also fucking foul. Into some really gross shit. And it's based on everybody's individual boundaries, right? Like if someone is like, if your friend wouldn't just go into

someone's house and shit on them and be like, and that'll be $400. He also has some impulse control problems for whatever it's worth. Oh god, that's so disgusting. I can't. But. Diversity. But for someone, it is worth 400 bucks. $400.

For someone, that is worth 400 bucks. Plus tip. For us, we would spend. Plus clean up. Plus tip, plus clean up. Honestly, housekeeping is who you want to thank. Is there an Uber for shitters? Yeah, absolutely.

You've heard of Uber Pooh? This is Uber Pooh. Uber Pooh. No, it's just Poohber. Yeah. Absolutely. You've heard of Uber Pooper? This is Uber Pooh. Uber Pooh. No, it's just Pooper. Pooper. Or Pooper. All right, well.

Well, that was an enlightening discussion. I asked you about your insensitivity to the Me Too movement. Yeah, we got a shit show. That's not insensitivity to the Me Too movement. I acknowledge that someone else is going to have a lower standard of shock and awe than i do because i want to say this in my own my own defense yeah because i got blasted you know because louis went on sure but actually in general i find that there's a tremendous lack of empathy among people wearing their empathy on their sleeves and we talked about this before but it wasn't it wasn't very long ago that all of

hollywood was signing petitions and giving roman polanski a standing ovation all of them now it's supposed to be so obvious i saw it at the time i can't believe they're giving this guy 15 year old kid but no all and and and now now that they've discovered it they look at everybody who you know does it like like it's not that obvious yeah And they're so arrogant once they got the memo. Like we said, I think I said to you, like when Barack Obama was against gay marriage, against gay marriage, against gay marriage. Sure. Then he comes out for gay marriage on June 1st. Yeah.

June 2nd, anybody who's not for gay marriage is an animal. Yeah. If they didn't come to it exactly on the schedule that Barack Obama did, despite the fact that he's erudite and liberal into Harvard. But if some dude in South Carolina who was raised in the church his whole life, if he didn't come to that conclusion on the same schedule as Barack Obama, he's an animal. He's an animal. I don't like that at all.

Morality, it's a moving target. I know, Noam, you always like to ask women's opinions about Louis. As long as we have Sarah here, if you have any thoughts about Louis. I assume you're aware that Louis came back here a couple of weeks ago. He was in all the blogs and so on. Yeah. What do you feel about that? It's so weird because I thought at first that it had been longer than nine months

because of this administration. It just feels like forever. But then it was like, okay, nine months, it seems soon. And then I think the thing that bothered me the most. Soon for him or soon for me to allow him to go on? Soon for him. And also just the whole irony of the surprise performance. The fact that the Me Too thing was because he was surprising

people and, like, pushing himself on them, and then all of a sudden he just shows up and he pushes his performance in a surprise on people who are unsuspecting. I just feel like, you know, if people are going to pay and say, I want to see you, great. But don't, at this point, after doing nothing, don't show up and make people watch you. I mean, I don't think you should do that. Well, you know, Noam has instituted his new swim at your own risk policy. Swim at your own risk.

Yes, that means that if an unannounced comedian that's not on the schedule performs here, you as an audience member have a right to leave without paying no questions asked. That's awesome. If you don't wish to see that performed. Which seems to me eminently reasonable. That's so reasonable, yeah.

But there are those for whom that that's not sufficient. Now, I had this conversation with my husband, and he said he would have stayed. I said I would have probably walked out. It's not so easy to walk out. You've got to get up in front of everybody. I know. And I would have been heckled. You would have been heckled.

And I probably, to be honest, I don't have the courage. So I probably would have stayed. But is it possible? and I probably, to be honest, I don't have the courage, so I probably would have stayed. I think that you would have been offended, but still interested to see what happened. It's not as if it's an uninteresting event that's growing up. It doesn't mean you support it. I know, but that's the world we live in.

It's like, oh, this isn't right, but I gotta watch. It's like the train wreck thing. I don't know. At some point, you gotta say, well, you gotta take a stand. I mean, I don't know. At some point you've got to say, well, you've got to take a stand. I mean, I don't know if I would have taken a stand, but I feel like... I don't want to get into more trouble, but I think that there's a

big worry, and I understand it, that these little events will whittle down the Me Too movement in some way and in the end prevent it from having the impact that we want it to have in terms of changing male behavior.

But I think movements have a problem with limiting principles, like gun control. We all understand you want to have a rifle to protect your family at home, but then the people who really care about that issue say, and you have to be able to have a military-style bazooka because they can't allow anything. But there is a point where principals start knocking heads,

and one of them is, 15 years ago, somewhere else, there's no procedure, the stories don't line up, it wasn't in my workplace. Would I fire the bartender if he had something bad in his past 15 years ago? What about the fact that he admitted to certain things? Doesn't the person who admits things get some leniency? I mean, there's so many things. Yeah, so many things.

That normally from the left, like the left, would the left-wing labor movement ever allow a union contract to fire somebody with Louis' story. They would never do that. You can't fire somebody for something you find out in the New York Times that they did 15 years earlier not in your workplace. No union would ever allow that.

So these are tough questions. Also, if it's unspeakable, it's untreatable. If there's a wrongdoing here that we all can agree on and can land on, then we have to be able to talk about it

and have opposing views on it. I disagree. And toss that salad. Tell me about that. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I actually really like her. Let Josh.

I'll do two. We talked the other night, you and I, and I think that speaking and treatment is really good, but I would like to, if and when people get kind of invited back into, let's say, polite society, I just would like to see some kind of restitution

being made, right? The treatment, right? I think the talking about it is happening, and I think that's really positive. That's on him, though. Yes, for sure that's on him. I don't even have the authority to insist on that or check on it or find out whether he did or he didn't. I mean, this might be uncomfortable, but what I've read is that it wasn't just Louis. Like, the women that were coming forward and talking about him, their careers were hurt.

Sure. And they were kept out of certain things because of a network of people, a boys club, that kept them out of things because of what they were saying about Louis. I don't know that that's true because I'm not involved in it, but is that true? None of us do. You just hit on it.

The answer is, and I said this a year ago, that people need to take each other to court. We do have an institution that people need to take each other to court. That is, we do have an institution that forces people to make amends for when they fuck people and hurt them. It is out there.

In the criminal court, and if you do something to somebody and they can't get work and you blackball them, whatever it is, that is actionable if you can prove it. That is what you should do. Also – Or even in a labor procedure. Is it actionable?

The allegation is that it's actionable to say to somebody, if you open your mouth, I'm going to ruin your career. So what is that? That's blackmail? I don't know if the threat is actionable, but if you actually take affirmative steps to do it, yes. You have to be able to prove that you lost money. If it's nothing more than a threat and you keep silent because of that threat? I don't know the answer to that. Who's a lawyer here? Both Dan and I are lawyers.

Well, we have law degrees. But the point is, as Noam said, we don't know precisely. And to even ask the question or to even suggest that we don't know, to some people strikes them as not believing the victim. Sarah says she didn't know. Which is now, I know she did. But when you say that, a lot of people say, believe the victim. And so even posing the question becomes problematic. I mean, he wrote a letter saying that he did it. He didn't write a letter saying he threatened him. He wrote a letter saying

he jerked off in front of him. Okay. I would like to hear him come out and say, I hurt nobody's career. Tell me that, Louis C.K. Can we all agree on one thing? Yeah.

The thing that really makes this most difficult is that he didn't address it when he went on stage. More than coming on stage, I think, is that he didn't address it. Would you agree with that, Sarah?

I don't know. I don't know what the tone of it was. People gave him a standing ovation. They did not give him a standing ovation. See, that was going around. I think it just said ovation and people upgraded it to standing. Nobody uses the word ovation. A sitting ovation, you never say it.

You have to specify if it's a sitting ovation. Weird writing. I agree. I don't know what happened Ovation, you never... You have to specify if it's a sitting ovation. Weird writing. That's weird writing. I agree. I mean, you know, I don't know what happened, but I know it was reported in the New York Times, and it just seems like if you're trying... If you leave for a while and are trying to come back,

and on a moral level, but just in terms of ingratiating yourself with a... On a PR level, sure. It terms of ingratiating yourself with a public... On a PR level, sure. It seems like there are things you could do to show that you have taken the time to heart. Like we said, taking a long time away to listen, right? It doesn't sound like a lot of listening. But see, the only thing we've heard is that he had a long conversation with Roseanne. Sure.

Who else did he have a conversation with? The paragon of sanity. Did he have private conversations with the women that he hurt? I want to hear about that. I don't need him to make a public statement. I need him to go individually to those women. I've heard rumors that he did reach out to them, but I have no idea whether it's true or not.

When the article came out, he had reached out to them on Facebook in the moment and apologized in the moment to a number of them, but I think the other thing to remember here is that he's not the only one who can create restitution here. There are thousands of gatekeepers, producers who can hire these women

and should hire these women. Men are given multiple chances in this industry. They can go out, produce something, it lands flat on its face, they get another chance. Whatever these women have the potential to become, they should be given another chance to become that thing. For sure.

Absolutely. That was the biggest surprise from the Me Too, is all the people that disappeared, and you wondered why they disappeared, and you realized the Harvey Weinstein thing actually affected their career. We really don't know what somebody's potential is, especially in this business where who the hell knows where

you're going to go with it i mean most of us don't succeed on any great on any spectacular i try to shut down on all these podcasts any conversation that sounds doubtful of the women because i believe i'm not doubtful of the women I said that even with great talent we just don't know where somebody would have gone in this business. And I believe that I had to... And it's me saying it so you're not... Does anybody listen to this? Yes, they do.

I had to believe that in my own mind stipulate that it's true and still deal with the idea that okay, somebody did do something bad 15 years ago. But you're talking about a court of law and a court of law would need to inquire

as to were these women, were their careers affected? They may well have been. I'm not talking about a court of law. I've been fired 43 times. If I were to ask a co-worker if I can jack off at them, I would be walked off the lot. And I know that because I know what a fireball offense is. Okay, so here's a good question, Sarah.

Mehran is admitting to... I'm totally serious. I'm listening. To doing what it is that a woman... No, he didn't. No, I'm not. I'm saying I've been fired 43 times from various jobs. Never, honestly, I'm not a handsy...

He was a hypothetical. Never, perhaps, give your joke off. I'm not a handsy person. He was just a honestly, I'm not a fancy person. Never, for as good of your joke, I'm not a fancy person. He's just a hypothetical. I'm really not. Like, my sexuality, like... I hope this isn't going to be cut up

and used against you. I like, I personally, I pick up on social cues pretty well, but not everyone does. You know we're trying to end the show? I'm leaving.

Good night, everybody. Podcast at ComedyCellar.com Podcast at ComedyCellar.com. Podcast at ComedyCellar.com.