The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Kliph Nesteroff and James Mattern

Episode Date: May 28, 2022

Kliph Nesteroff is the author of The Comedians: Drunks, Thieves, Scoundrels and the History of American Comedy and We Had A Little Real Estate Problem: The Unheralded Story of Native Americans and Comedy.    James Mattern is a stand up comic and regular at The Comedy Cellar. His special is called The Check Spot. 

This is Live from the Table, recorded at the world-famous comedy cellar here in Greenwich Village, New York City. Coming at you on Sirius XM 99, Raw Dog and the Laugh Button Podcast Network. We have with us, first of all, I'm Dan Natterman. We have with us Noam Dorman, the owner of the world famous comedy cellar, who is always here. Are you still on a Bluetooth speaker? But I can't find any. I'm going to focus. Go ahead. Periel Ashenbrand

is with us. She is the show's producer and she also is an on-air personality though I would remind her that she is not authorized to change the topic. She's only authorized to comment on topics that are currently being discussed. Well, that's the rule, James.

James Mattern is with us. He's a comedy seller, regular, a native of Las Vegas, Nevada. People actually live in Las Vegas. It happens sometimes, Dan. Two million people. They stay there. They don't commute. It happens.

And some people even grow up there, like Andre Agassi. The great Andre Agassi. The lead singer of The Killers. All The Killers. What's his other whole? Brandon Flowers. I used to work with him. Yeah.

At doing what? We worked at a golf course together. I mean, is that the last place you think that lead singer? The guy who did Mr. Brightside would be working, worked at a golf course. He knew nothing of golf, I think. But it was fun. That's an interesting story. But not Agassi.

And you don't know. I never met Agassi, but that would have been a moment. Yes. I once got in a fight with someone because they said a wrong statement about Andre Agassi and you don't know. I never met Agassi, but that would have been a moment. Yes. I once got in a fight with someone because they said a wrong statement about Andre Agassi. I didn't talk to that person for months because he was like our home team for years.

Well, I read his autobiography and he seems like a really cool guy. The best. Anyway, James has a new special that we'd like to plug that up front. Thank you. I like a good upfront. And prime time plugging time.

If this is like that scene in Annie Hall. Let's kiss now so we can enjoy the meal and digest our food after. Yeah. So June 3rd, the check spot. It is recorded during the worst part of a comedy show when everyone gets their bills and no one pays attention and does math. And yeah, it comes out. It's a black and white. It's like nothing else.

It's raw. I answer questions from the audience while they pay their bills. It was recorded where? Well, it was recorded at New York Comedy Club on 4th Street. I wasn't in here yet when I recorded it. My bad, guys. But so, and you guys don't have check spots. What the fuck is going on here? I actually recorded it a week after I got passed. I was like,

well, we'll see you guys next week. You should have done it over. I'll do another one. But you guys don't have check spots. We have to go on after the show. Can you tell the audience a little bit, just in case case what the check spot is for those people who might not be familiar? Is that changing the subject? That's almost changed. No, I don't think that's changing. OK, go ahead.

Well, it's a tough call. It's a good question. I'll allow it. I did. I did another podcast where Jared Freed talked about how when you see like a bunch of comics, like a showcase show, it's all a slice of a pie. You might like this piece. You might like that. But the check spots, basically the crumbs.

It's like a lot of clubs have young comics do that. Know what? I mean, it absolutely can go from the best show ever to sounding like a South Park rally. Remember when the waitstaff gives the audience the checks? Yes. And then they're being busy paying attention to the check instead of watching the show. Who. And then they're busy paying attention to the check instead of watching the show.

Who had the tuna salad? The comedy seller does that, gives the checks after the show. Which is spectacular. But very unusual. But unusual because the other clubs want to get it done so that when the show's over, they can turn over the room as quickly as possible.

And apparently the check spot on like a Jewish audience is the worst because they have to divvy up the bill and everything. Like a good Christian check spot. to divvy up the bill and everything. Like, well, that could be like a good Christian check spot. One person just pays the bill. that'll be my next experiment.

I'll do one show. All Jewish folk. And when the Christian check spot, are you focused? Are you good? Should I get him first? Yes, sir.

You are the inspiration for other people. I love. Whoa. Okay. Oh, that got real sensitive. Yes, sir. Do you have any words of inspiration for other people with ADD? I love... Whoa, okay. Oh, that got real sensitive. Do you have any other words of inspiration for anyone else who has ADD? All right, guys, I don't remember if I did my ADD joke today.

I didn't. I did not. I love that you became the secretary of this Congress. I'm looking over the notes. You did not bring up ADD. You did, yes. All right, red shirt, let's go. Will you sing a Prince song?

Will I sing a Prince song? Yes. Yeah. So, the secretary in the front just goes, yes, and then she starts singing to me

Purple Fucking Rain. As long as we're plugging, let's give out our email, podcast at comedyseller.com for all your comments,

suggestions, constructive criticism, and let us know how we can improve things here at live from the table on Rada. I don't mind venomous non-constructive criticism. Actually. I liked it. I like, I like people. Anything that is helpful to, well, then it's not constructive, I guess you're saying, but yeah. Anything to let us know what we're doing right

and what we're doing wrong would certainly come in handy. Also, you want to say another plug, Perrielle, or is that it? No, just our email. I'm also going to plug my book, Iris Spiro Before COVID. Do you love the world of comedy? Do you love the world of comedy do you love uh uh the world of show business more generally then you will love iris spiro before covid my novel available on amazon and you can also read four chapters for free on kindle so you don't even have to

you know commit you can read four chapters and if you think it's crap then you don't have to, you know, commit. You can read four chapters. And if you think it's crap, then you don't have to buy it. But it's been endorsed by both Perriell and Noah. I don't think Perriell read it. Excuse you. Perriell read the entire thing and loved it and thought it was brilliant and amazing. And we fucking talked about it. Yeah, I remember now. But I read it like a year before Perriell read it. Noted? Yeah. Noted. Okay. And I really loved it. Because Perrielle, I mean, she says everything is great. Everything's fantastic.

Like, you know, there's no baseline with her. So, like, what were the odds she wasn't going to tell you it was great? I don't even really believe she read it. Because there's typos and stuff in there. She didn't pick up on them. In any case. The typos were changed by the time it got to her. Because thanks to people like you and others that told me about these typos, I was able to change didn't pick up on them in any case. The typos were changed by the time it got to her, because thanks to people like you and others that told me about these typos, I was able to change it before I gave.

You know what? I really read it and I really like, you know, you have some nerve. Don't talk shit until you read both of my books. I'm not going to read your books more than don't talk shit. And you can ask me any question about the book and I guarantee you, I'll be able to bring a copy in for me, which you haven't done. That's true. So in any case, in comedy news before something wrong with my sound. Oh, here it is. In comedy news before Cliff Nesterov, our guest comes.

Apparently, John Mulaney was performing in Columbus, I believe, Ohio, which is near where Dave Chappelle lives. And Dave did a guest spot. He did like an opening. I don't know how long, 20 minutes, whatever it was. He went on before Mulaney in Columbus and told jokes about trans people because that's what he does very often. And as they say in the world of social media, some people didn't like it.

How many some people are, I don't know. But there was a lot of tweets about this. When we say a lot, you mean like three, right? I really don't know. there there was a lot of tweets about this what would say a lot you mean like three right i really don't know yeah that's probably what it is some number of people didn't like but this is a common theme no one's been accused of this other clubs have been accused of this of uh allowing people unannounced to do comedy people that are controversial to do comedy unannounced so um this is something that's come up with regard to the comedy seller and Noam. His solution to it was to what? My solution was to tell people that you can swim at your own risk and that if somebody shows up you don't like, you can leave and the bill's on us. That's been my solution to it. And you also clearly state that anybody might drop by. But anybody might

drop by. But I mean, aren't we over this already? Like, isn't this so like five years ago, this whole getting offended? I mean, it's enough with it already. Chappelle said nobody really cared. Joe Rogan, my goodness, he compared black people to apes. You'd think that would be enough. Rogan did that? Yeah.

I don't recall that. Yeah, he said he. I'm going to go protest now. I didn't know this. I'm going to tweet at't recall that yeah he said he i'm gonna go protest now i didn't know this i'm gonna tweet at him right now he said he saw planet of the apes he went to see a planet the movie planet apes all right everybody said i saw planet of the apes at play whatever i mean and and that didn't sink him even among the black comics it didn't sink him i think we've really exposed that this whole woke outrage thing is a tiny fraction of people. Nobody actually cares. It's enough with this shit already.

When the Post ran a headline, protesters at the comedy cellar about Louis C.K., there was one woman with a placard, and then some woman who lives across the street saw her and came and joined her. That was, and the headline said, protesters descend. I think it was the were descend. Protesters

descend on the comedy cell. But no, you say that. But you yourself have said that you took that criticism seriously and that you didn't want to ambush anybody. And so you yeah, I take the criticism seriously. That's fine. But you know, we always we like that

anyway. Anybody's not happy. We don't make them pay. You hear that, America? There it is. So do you think Mulaney could have handled it better? No, Mulaney. Mulaney didn't do anything wrong. I mean, if you cared about opening acts, do you realize how many concerts I went to where the opening act, the band was horrible. So can I just get my money back? Because I saw like someone shitty open for Slayer when I was a kid. Like it's. Well, but you know that going in, you know that there's going to be an opening. In 20, 30 years ago, you didn't you some some Johnny's route. You didn't know these assholes were. And you thought I always assume going to a concert, a musical concert that there would be an opening act and that I wouldn't like them. That was my assumption.

Yeah. In standup comedy, the opening acts kill. Well, they should. I think we've all seen where they don't. Some people just bring shitty opening. Yeah. Some people bring really,

some people bring opening acts that are so bad. I assume they're fucking them like that. That yes. Right. Like nobody would have given her a spot. Okay. But, but no,

before we, because before you have the incident I'm thinking about was before you have to do your definition, before you have to do your usual end of the show walk back. Yeah, I'm going to be the opportunity right now to clarify that men can be sucky comics, too. And is that what you took from that? I think women. Well, yeah, you said I assume he is fucking her.

Oh, enough. There's also been where people bring bad acts so they can just go in and be mediocre and kill. That happens a lot, too, where people do not like their opener to kill because they don't want to work that hard. And so I've seen that a lot. Well, so let's spin this out.

A man, a male comic. Cliff is here. We should ask him about the Mulaney thing, but a male No, just two minutes. Just tell him to... A male comic would more likely put on a female comic because he's trying to get with her. Right.

A female comic wouldn't put on the male... Like, a female comic could probably screw the guy she wants to screw. Like, that's just the way sex works. It's way easier. If a female comic picks out the guy she wants to screw, he'll probably screw her. He's not going to like, maybe she puts me as opening act. That's just real life. That's not going to stop people

from taking offense at what you said. But I just want to say something about Melania. I want to ask Cliff Nesteroff about it. I'm not ready. So Louis had done something that he apologized for. It was controversial. It was a New York Times article about it. But this is actually the slippery slope I was worried about.

So, yeah, maybe you should warn people before Louie comes on, because there's a big people are really upset about it. Right. Which I but Chappelle, are we ready to say that Dave Chappelle is now the kind of radioactive act that has to be the audience has to be warned? Fuck that. No, that's ridiculous. But also, sorry, isn't it protocol that you don't necessarily say who the opening act is. But everybody who goes to a big show knows there's going to be one. Sometimes you say, but, you know, you might want to warn of Cosby was going to come on. Anyway, let's let's bring him up. All righty. Something to think about. Cliff Nesterov is joining us. Cliff, are you there?

Now you got to give him a chance to log in. All right. Now he's kind of an anti and anti woke, anti, anti woke, anti, anti woke. Cliff Nesterov, how do you do? Hi, Cliff. Cliff Nesterov. That's me. An encyclopedia of comedy. That's what they call them, folks.

And his work is book the comedians, drunks, Thieves, Scoundrels, and the History of American Comedy, which came out in 2013 to uniformly positive reviews. I'll tell you this. I know plenty of drunks, thieves, and scoundrels. I don't know. Are there a lot of thieves and scoundrels today in 2022

in the comedy world? You're asking me? I guess. Well, I mean, I don't do stand-up anymore, so I can't speak to thieves. But when I was doing stand-up, I used to see a lot of dudes doing Norm and doing Mitch Hedberg.

It seemed like every open mic guy with no material would just adopt Hedberg's cadence or Norm's cadence and get laughs. And he used to infuriate me. And I always thought that that was theft, theft of, of cadence, which is not, but is that off limits? To what extent can you be inspired by somebody and where does it cross the line?

You can, you can tell when somebody is not inspired, when they're doing Norm's voice, exactly. When they're doing Mitch Hedberg's voice, exactly. It's not inspiration. I guess you can be forgiving to open micers, but when I was an open micer, I wasn't forgiving to those motherfuckers at all. I always infuriated when people would get laughs they didn't deserve, you know,

and I would be, I would sabotage shows as a comic guy would heckle a comic. If I saw them doing somebody else's act or material and the audience would turn on me, like I was the asshole when I was the asshole, but so were they, so were they. And so that shit still infuriates me, but I don't do standup anymore. So I don't know how prevalent I'm sure it's the same as it, it always has.

I don't see, I mean, I don't hang around in circles where there's people that are very new or open mic level. Yeah. So I, that may be going on today, but I'm at the cellar so the people that come here are already more seasoned and I'm not seeing too much outright thievery going on I host some auditions and and that and I did see some people at JFL auditions that were basically biting people it was kind of embarrassing yeah a couple people snuck through the cracks. But I see comics very often. A lot of them.

They're so admiring of Dave Attell. They just can't help. That's a huge one. They can't help it, but they're not stealing. They just can't help it. It's like a virus. It's unbelievable. Yeah.

I mean, I host I'm hosting a late show tonight. I'm going to be down there with him for like 30 minutes. And it is tough. I've caught myself a few times and I've been doing this for decades going. And I go, oh, no, can't do that shit. Can't go down that. Really? By the way, are you familiar with a fellow we had on this show called Wayne Fetterman? Yeah. You wrote a book, The History of Stand Up. Yeah. Now, I say I'm interested in the history of stand up, which, by the way, I'm not.

I'm over the whole thing. But anyway, and I want to buy a book about stand up. Yeah. Now I'm I say I'm interested in the history of stand up, which, by the way, I'm not. I'm over the whole thing. But anyway, and I want to buy a book about stand up and I my budget is limited. I'm a working man. My budget is limited. I have a choice between the comedians by Cliff Nesterov or the history of stand up by Wayne Fetterman. Why should I buy the your book and not Wayne's book? Well, Wayne's book is Kindle only. So you already have to buy a piece of equipment to read his thing. Good answer. And mine, you can get at a fucking garage sale or at the Salvation Army. Also, you can't shoplift Wayne's book because it's a digital format

and you can easily steal mine from any used bookstore. They don't even have little security things at the door. Don't try and steal it from a new bookstore because I don't want to be held responsible. Since when do bookstores still even exist? Oh, that's an unfortunate and good point. We have a Barnes & Noble in my neighborhood. I was just buying one today, yeah. There used to be so many Barnes & Nobles and I used to spend hours there

avoiding my roommate, just sitting on couches, reading for free because when I have a roommate in New York in a small apartment, even if it's a nice guy, you don't want to see him. Enough's enough. Enough's enough. And I would just hang out at the bookstore because there was a bookstore always nearby wherever I happen to be. And I would sit there and you could read for free and then buy hang out at the bookstore because there was a bookstore always nearby wherever I happen to be. And I would sit there and you could read for free and then buy a coffee at the cafe.

And now of course, bookstores are hard to find, but that's where my, my French studies started at, at, at the local bookstore. Incredible story. I love you even more. I didn't think it was, I love the book and I love you in every appearance you do. First five minutes. I love you even more.

I love the book and I love you in every appearance you do. And now phenomenal. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Realizing I like steak more than I do. This is where would you where would you pinpoint the beginning of the art form of stand up comedy? And there were people that like like Mark Twain, I think, used to go on tour and do discussions.

And I'm getting this from, I think, from Fetterman's book. Yeah. If you want to get really boring about it, sure. Like it starts basically in the post-Civil War era. That's when you have an influx of new immigrants and formerly enslaved people who are marginalized from most of society. So Jewish immigrants are kept out of law and medicine. African Americans are kept out of pretty much everything. But in those days, show business, the stage was considered very disreputable. And if you were in like sort of high society and your daughter dated an actor, that was a reason to disown

your daughter. So people that were kind of marginalized from other legitimate professions were welcomed into show business because it was considered the lowest of the low. So Jewish immigrants and formerly enslaved Black people sort of formed the foundations of American comedy in Vaughanville in the 1870s, 1880s, and 1890s. And then other immigrant groups italian immigrants and irish immigrants predominantly sort of formed the foundations of american stand-up mark twain was basically uh taking stuff that he had written and then rewriting it to read out loud or perform out loud and he did it for laughs so it was sort of like stand up. But he wasn't performing a circuit, whereas in vaudeville, vaudeville comics for touring like you do the road today.

And it was very similar where you're trying to deal with corrupt bookers and and club owners who think that they know what's funny and are telling you what to do. Don't get me started on the club owners. I think they know what's funny. Yeah. But I'm not allowed to say right now. Yeah. Yeah. We all know who they are. But so it was sort of very similar to today to today, even though when you look at a photo of that era, it doesn't seem relatable at all. Vaudeville seems pretty remote. Where would we first see stand up that we would recognize today as the kind of stand up we're used to? Where would we when when would that when when would that start? Probably more in the 1950s. You know, before that, there were so many comedy teams and most standup

was not even standup. It was like standup in disguise. Your partner did the setups and then you did the punchlines. That's how comedy teams were structured. It was like the two parts of the joke

were delivered by two separate people. When it became more standup, standup as we understand it and not doing street jokes, because there were solo comics in the 20s, 30s, and 40s, but they're doing sort of generic jokes that were not about themselves.

They would say, did you hear the one about the doctor who went to the horse races? And then they would tell a joke about the doctor, this nondescript unidentified doctor then the 50s Lenny Bruce Mortzall Jonathan Winters come along and they kind of changed the art form Lenny Bruce instead of talking about the doctor going to the racetrack he would say I went to the doctor or I went to the racetrack it kind of personalized it and that's how stand-up is today so in the 50s basically is when you start to recognize standup in the

modern sense. Let's get back to the club owners who don't know what's funny. It's just ironic that because you're here, because I do think you're funny. So it's kind of like, it's kind of like I'm the wrong person to pick on about that. Right? Like you're supposed to aim that at the guy who didn't,

didn't book you or make you a co-host of his podcast. Like, but I think you have a point, Dan. Well, I'm busting your balls. I like to bust your balls, obviously. Look, people are certainly qualified to say what they think is funny. And doesn't everybody know what's funny? Well, everybody knows what is a stand up show is 200 people in a room and simultaneously for some reason, they all think it's funny at the same time, or they all don't. And it's amazing how night to night, that opinion is quite often almost unanimous. Whatever it is, and me as the owner, and the other comics there,

will also react, I'll watch, the same way as the audience. For whatever reason, whatever the magic is, everybody seems to know at the same time, whether it's funny or it's not. Some club owners want to go beyond that. They, they have no, they have greater wisdom. Yeah. Yeah.

Yes. This guy kills, but there's more, there's more important things than killing, you know? And then they try to overlay their personal theories. And then that's where they go. But I still think that I still don't think that there's a perfect correlation between killing and skill. Say skill. Nobody hires you for skill or they hire you for your entertainment value, Dan.

But unfortunately, I still think there's easy ways to get laughs and different audiences react differently. What do you think, James Madden? Well, I mean, it goes to the point that Cliff's saying earlier, like I could go out and just do a Dave impression and probably kill at a high level consistently. Anyone could probably do that. I saw people do that. Do we reward them?

I mean, do we reward people for just basically stealing? You know, it's that's that's the big issue. That's why some people are like, OK, you killed. But if this was like figure skating, you did an easy trick. So you get like a six point one while someone else did something wild and you're going to get a. There are also easy tricks that don't involve stealing. I mean, a well-placed motherfucker or a well-placed N-word. Well, don't look at me saying the word, but I'm just saying I can sometimes get a laugh. Such thing as a well-placed N-word well don't look at me saying the word but i'm just saying can sometimes get a

laugh no such thing as a well-placed n-word dan go ahead well uh you know anyway what do you think about that it's out of your next book then do you think uh audience killing is the is the most reliable barometer of a comedian's skill level a well-placed n-word is the best way to get the audience to turn on you if that's if i use it but i'm saying if a comic that is i disagree i disagree because i feel like the era of like being shocked into laughter doesn't exist anymore elderly comedians used to always complain in the 70s and 80s about Carlin and Pryor and Eddie Murphy. They'd say, oh, they just use a four-letter word to get a laugh. It's

easy. It's easy. If you go on stage and just say, fuck, you're not going to get a laugh anymore because it's so common, right? It only got a laugh when it was sort of taboo. So I don't agree that a well-placed motherfucker is going to lead to a laugh today. I don't know. Sometimes I'm onaced motherfucker is going to lead to a laugh today.

I don't know. Sometimes I'm on stage and I get laughs and I'm like, I don't feel good about this laugh. Wow. But you say that anyway, even when you say things that are actually really funny. No, look, look, Dan, I think you're making a point that that an audience that's very unsophisticated or, you know, naive can react to the imitation with just as much enthusiasm as they would react to the original. So when I was a kid, I'd never heard the original Chuck Berry records. I heard like the Beatles version of Chuck Berry records. Now, maybe if I had grown up on the actual records, I said, who do these guys think they are? You know, but that's, that's how people

feel. I think a lot about Robert Klein today, because you hear Seinfeld and people talk about how they were influenced by Robert Klein and to him, he was their Carlin or their prior. And I think a lot of young people will watch Robert Klein today and they don't really see anything special there because his style of humor is that what became that popular observational style of, of the 1980s. So I think that's true that. So, so, so what happens is sometimes the audience,

so we'll see, like if you imitate like that, we'll consider you a hack. If we know that you're passing yourself off as something, then we will call you a hack. But that doesn't actually mean you're not funny. The audience is responding to you. They don't know that you've stolen it. They don't know that you're a hack.

I think if you do stand up long enough for enough years even with no talent and even without being funny you'll figure out the magic tricks but yeah just enough just enough just enough to sustain yourself competently you'll get booked to host a show yes and you can you can sort of sustain yourself but you're really just doing the horse shit magic tricks. You'll never be able to go to that next level. Yeah, but horse shit magic tricks can kill. Well, color by numbers is what I call it. There's a lot of comedian by numbers

where they just do enough. There's not an ounce of creativity, originality or heart and soul. I think the best example are impressionists and I love quality impressions. And if somebody can do an impression I haven't seen before, like I'm, I don't think it's a diminished style of standup. I think it's almost a superior style of standup. Gilbert,

it was never called an impressionist. One of the greatest impressionists of all time. Speaking of course of Gilbert Gottfried. Norm was a brilliant impressionist, never considered an impression. Just another thing that added to his incredible toolbox as a comedian. But there are most impressionists out there are doing impressions of other people's impressions. Somebody cracks the code, and then somebody does that code version of the impression. It usually takes a year after a president is first elected before all the comedians figure out how to do an impression. When Obama was elected,

people were like, oh, there's nothing there. They can't impersonate. He doesn't have a nuance. And one year later, everybody was going, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop. Who cracked that code? Do you know? Well, I don't know for sure. For me, it was Dana Carvey. He was the one that I heard that really nailed it right away. Other people were browning their face and wearing a suit and calling it an impression. But he kind of found the cadence, the rhythm. I'm sure there's somebody else that would say that they were the one, you know. But for years, the main impressionist was Frank Gorshin, who played the Riddler in Batman. He was the first guy to do an impression of Kirk Douglas, the first person to do an impression of Jack Nicholson, the first person to do an impression of Peter Falk. Some of

the ones that became like standard cliches he invented. And I interviewed a guy in his 90s who since died named Will Jordan, who claimed to have created the impression of Ed Sullivan in the 50s. All the comedians were saying, really big shoe, really big shoe. And so I interviewed him in his 90s. He was so fucking bitter. He goes, Ed Sullivan never said shoe. I said shoe. Comedians who said shoe were doing me.

They weren't doing Sullivan. He was like 90 years old, just fucking seething with rage that he didn't get credit for. That's like, I don't blame him. That's like Dana Carvey, who said, not got that. And I don't blame him. That's like Dana Carvey who said, not got that. And I don't think George Bush ever said that. But Carvey said it.

And all of a sudden that became people's notion of what George Bush sounded like. I think that's the greatest style for me of impressions. The Dana Carvey or the James Adomian style where you take the voice and you turn it into an insane character. That also seems to be what people respond to the most. Daryl Hammond once said that people didn't like it when he did certain impressions. I think he did an impression of Al Gore and people didn't like it because it

was, in his opinion, too accurate. There was no exaggeration. There was nothing cartoony to laugh at. It was just a guy in a very matter of fact, boring voice. And so it didn't get laughed. I think that's true unless the person's voice is already comedic and, and accuracy like, like Al Pacino, the modern Al Pacino, the post scent of a woman, Al Pacino, his voice is so ridiculous that an accurate impression is funny I think and and who used to do that um Caliendo I think Frank Caliendo used to do the and many people have done it but I I think

in that case accurate is funny because Pacino was so ridiculous he became a caricature I think Jay Moore may have I don't maybe it wasn't him but I think it was Jay Moore who did like a young Pacino and an old Pacino the old Pacino is the is the hoo-, but I think it was Jay Moore who did like a young Pacino and an old Pacino. The old Pacino is the hoo-ha, but then the young Pacino's got like a real high-pitched sort of voice. What's going on when he's doing Serpico? It's like two different people. But the young

Pacino's voice to me isn't as amusing because even if it's a perfect impression, the voice itself, as you had said, the voice itself is not that funny. But you can steal somebody else's impression with impunity and nobody's going to accuse you of being a joke thief. Well, because people don't see that as stealing

because they figure all you're doing is imitating the person. So how can you steal an imitation? It's such theft, in my opinion. It drives me crazy. That's how people treat it. I hate that. Who started the walking? Because you bring up it. Yeah. I hate that. Who started the walk-in? Because you bring up Moore. I know Moore did that

forever, but didn't Kevin Pollack do it? Like, I have no idea. Yeah. Everyone's always needed William Shatner, for sure. What's that? He did the first William. Probably, yeah. Actually, Ron Darian. Kevin Pollack did Shatner. That's what he just said. I'm sorry, I was tuning out. Why not?

Pick your spots. Pick and choose, baby. Yeah, I don't out. Why not? Pick your spots. Pick and choose, baby. Yeah, I don't know. I think Kevin Pollak might get credit for the first Christopher Walken, a very dubious distinction at this point. But when I think Jay Moore did it, if I recall correctly, the week before or a few weeks before, Christopher Walken hosted Saturday Night Live. And Jay Moore was a

cast member at that time. And Christopher Walken did a sketch called The Continental in which he played a romantic guy with a cocktail and a rope. And he spoke directly into the camera and opened the door and said, welcome to my boudoir or whatever. And the sketch killed. And then a week later or a few weeks later, Christopher Walken is, of course, not hosting, but they resurrected the sketch, this time with Jay Moore doing an impression of Christopher Walken doing The Continental. Can we talk about SNL now that you brought it up, by the way? Because, James, you know, I'm just I get excited how excited you get, Dan. I don't get to spend enough time with you. We live in the same neighborhood.

We live in the same neighborhood. We met each other. We got Cliff, who's amazing. But, you know, there's this notion that I keep hearing people saying SNL hasn't been funny in decades. And, and Lauren did an interview recently where he was talking about how you

can't get away with a lot of the stuff they got away with in the seventies. You can't get away with now. When I watch SNL clips on YouTube, because I never watched the actual show. I think it's at least the past 10 years of SNL is right when it's good. It is excellent. And I don't think there's anything to this notion that it hasn't been good

in since. They also, they also get away, get away with more today in other departments than they would have in the seventies. Like they did a thing on weekend update a couple of months ago about abortion. There's no way it would have been allowed on network television in the seventies. So there's sort of a trade-off between the things you cannot supposedly

cannot say anymore. And that are sort of traded off with things that you can say now that you couldn't. You agree with me that SNL in the seventies was just, I mean, I don't want to say it was me that SNL in the 70s was just. I mean, I don't want to say it was bad because it was innovative for its time, but it cannot hold a candle to what came later. Cheeseburger, cheeseburger. Come on. How did that become an iconic sketch? I think it's kind of funny, Dan. I hate to admit it. I hate to piss in the hat, but I still watch that now.

Just thinking about it makes me laugh. Belushi is hilarious. The thing is, Bill Murray made in that sketch. The thing that's the thing that's uniform about all of its eras is that you can find a fucking horrible sketch and a fucking hilarious. Yeah, but Cheat Burger is a sketch that it was that is considered iconic for that era. And it was to me, it's only it's only considered iconic because of the catchphrase. It's not considered iconic because you're rolling with laughter. But I lost my train of thought completely. Oh, for me, growing up in the early 1990s, that was the greatest era of SNL. And Lorne Michaels had always said that, with almost no exception, when he meets somebody who loves SNL, it's the era that they grew up watching that they think is the funniest. Oh, that's funny.

I've heard that said, and that era with Carvey and Myers and Harper was great, but the stuff today that they're doing, I don't think it's necessarily better, but if I'm being objective, even though it's no longer my era, a good episode of Black Jeopardy, the Californians, almost anything Kristenristin wigg does uh i mean to me this is amazing stuff when it's when it's you know kristin wigg is your definition of a modern snl cast member i think i'm saying past get him but even like 15 years behind here yeah but but but even 15 years ago was well past the era that I grew up with. So I'm saying that I don't I don't fit into this.

I'm not saying that my era was the best era. I'm saying there's other eras that were great. When I see the I see a modern sketch with Charles Rocket, I guess I'm like, this is the evolution of comedy. God damn it. Look, as you get older, 15 years is yesterday, which is why Chris Rock referenced G.I. Jane and didn't think it was an old reference. But this is what you prove that I believe Gilbert said years ago because he was in the most infamous worst cast ever,

the nine or ten episode, Gene DeMonian. That was 1980. Yeah. He goes, it hurt for years, and then it all runs together, and people are like, I love you in that sketch with Molly Shannon, Dan Aykroyd, and Christian Wigg. It all kind of, you just proved it right there. We all kind of do it.

I have friends on the show, and I couldn't name the whole cast. You could make up a name right now, be like, oh, yeah, yeah, she's great. And I wouldn't know. It just comes and goes, and it's all just the same thing. You could tell me Bill Murray came back for five episodes this year. I want to know. You know, they don't do on SNL anymore unless they have a comic hosting right at the monologue. Like Mulaney will do stand up off the top or whatever.

But in the 70s and 80s, they would have comedians on as guests the way they have a musical guest. And they would just come out and do stand up. Wouldn't appear in any of the sketches. Maybe they'd be there at the end waving good night um but sam kinnison famously hosted an episode that had a seven second delay but he did stand up on snl at least three times before that just to do stand-up there's an episode hosted by harry dean stanton of all people and he introduces uh sam kinnison and does stand up like an 85 or something. You want to ask Cliff about

Mulaney? He brought up Mulaney. I know you had said you were asking about Mulaney. No, I thought you said you wanted to talk about it with Cliff. Yeah, but ask him the same question you asked me. Don't be a pussy. It's just became good. But I haven't been doing a lot of the talking, so I thought I'm enjoying this. Go ahead, Dan. Well, we were talking

before you came here. Maybe you came in at the tail end about I thought I'm enjoying this. Go ahead, Dan. Well, we were talking before you came here. Maybe you came in at the tail end about I'm scanning from my Bose Bluetooth speaker. I'm not going to find it. Go ahead. You know, the controversy,

quote unquote, everything's a controversy because there's always somebody upset about everything that Mulaney invited Chappelle on to open for open, quote unquote, you know, do a guest spot,

whatever you want to call it at his show in Ohio. And some people are upset about it, but of course, everybody's upset about everything, but because he, you know, there's trans jokes, whatever. So do you have any thoughts on that? I guess it's the opening. It's amazing that Chappelle has fallen so far that he's now an opener, but I, well, I put it in quotes.

No, I know, but that's what they, that's how the media reported it, that he opened now an opener but i uh well i put it in quotes no i know but that's what they that's how the media reported it that he opened for john mulaney i think that there is um i think getting too big is bad for a comedian i think if you become a huge huge celebrity you are more likely to be um the the object of ridicule rather than the ridiculer. You're the type of person that would be parodied on SNL. I blame mostly the media. I don't really feel that things are as controversial as people purport them to be. I think it's used in the culture war as like a political pawn. And we have allowed those of us involved in comedy, we've allowed comedy to be exploited as a political pawn by people who have nothing to do with comedy and everything to do

with politics. Places like the Heritage Foundation and think tanks, you know, Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro, Tucker Carlson, what do they have to do with comedy? Nothing. They're not funny. They're not standups. They have no experience in comedy. So why would I take what they tell me about comedy or what's happening in comedy? I'm not sure what you're referring to. What are you referring to with those? I'm returning. I'm returning. I'm referring in the last 10 years or maybe five years of trying to pit people against each other.

These people want to take your jokes away. These people want to censor you. Therefore, it justifies us acting in a certain way politically. There's hundreds of fucking podcasts and interview requests that I get to talk about cancel culture. It's a phrase I've never used in my life. And until the media turned it into a thing, I never heard two comedians discuss it in my life. And when I go to the comedy store here or the improv or supernova comedy down the street here, the place is packed. Everybody's laughing. Everybody's enjoying themselves.

So I just don't see the correlation between the media hysteria and the reality at the venues. I tend to agree with you that it's overblown, but I can tell you as the, as the club owner, when I have to worry about these things. Because you have to worry about them because people have been incited by the media. Yes.

There's an incitement so that suddenly you have people feeling entitled to complain about whatever in a way that they may have previously kept to themselves, mostly because of the incitement of comedy being used as a political bond within this greater culture war, in my opinion. So if I hear what you're saying, you're saying that the people who came after Joe Rogan, you blame the Ben Shapiros of the world for the fact that left-wing people...

I don't even correlate it as left-wing or right-wing so much as culture war. There are players who will use controversies to then... Just one second. If you don't want to use a label, that's fine. But when you say Ben Shapiro, Tucker Carlson, and

the Heritage Foundation, that's the right wing. That's the right wing. And their modus operandi is culture wars. The people who they oppose, I'm going to call the left wing. Yeah, but you can be a conservative or a liberal without being a participant in the greater culture war. When the liberals came after Joe Rogan, you don't blame... Well, it depends who we're referring to

because it's a big, wide umbrella. Well, I didn't hear anybody other than liberals. So when I get... So who specifically by name, who are you referring to when you say... I don't know, Neil Young or whoever was out there. Okay, so let's talk about Neil Young specifically. No, no, I don't want to talk specifically because... I do because

that's who the play... When I say Ben Shapiro, Jordan Peterson, Tucker Carlson, these are specific players that are using comedy. Exploiting comedy to further their own political... What is the culture war? It's a culture war between the left and the right, correct?

Culture war is about dogmatic value systems. Who were on the two sides? Well, it depends on what the- Who was on the other side of Tucker Carlson and Jordan Peterson and those guys? Well, let me ask you, who do you know that was besides Neil Young?

I mean, people in the New York Times, people on Twitter, I don't know their names. It was- Yeah, exactly. Whoever sent around that video. You're making, you're making the perfect point for me. It's the media. It's the media. You and I in our general. Hold on a second.

And you don't encounter people like Netflix and Netflix. There were employees who were threatening to walk. If net, if Netflix continued continued to um i'm going to tell you i'm going to tell you without knowing those people to be able to name them specifically those were not ben shapiro heritage foundation people those were left-wing woke type people my question my only to you is, are you saying, it sounds like what you're saying, and I'm not even rejecting the point,

I'm trying to make sure it's what you're saying, that they are essentially reacting that way because of the Ben Shapiros in the world. Left to their own devices, they wouldn't be offended.

They're only offended because people like Tucker Carlson are saying stuff. Because it seems to me that's not the case. People are very touchy now. I think the tucker carlson ben shapiro dynamic helps build up a hysteria that would not otherwise be swirling through our consciousness and they then you can use that hysteria to pit it against their adversaries.

So why were the people at Netflix walking out? 20 people walking out at Netflix. That's a lot. Yeah. Would not be constituted as the end of comedy. I'm not saying. If not, you're not. But in the culture war, it's being framed that way that this is the end of comedy they're taking your jokes away the evidence does not seem to be the

case comedy seems to be thriving well I agree with you except I agree with you except and I and I and I'm every time I'm interviewed about this stuff I kind of say something similar to you I'm saying I don't really see any evidence that I don't know if you've heard me. I'm not, I'm not, you know, I say everywhere else in the world. I think this is a much bigger problem than clubs. Yes. I agree with you. However, I do see comedians very nervous about this stuff and I'm going to tell them, don't worry about this stuff. When, when Louis CK was performing at the club,

I had comedians who were afraid not because they were outraged by Louis CK. They were afraid to be on the same show as Louis CK because they were afraid not of Tucker Carlson. They were afraid of people on whatever you want to call the people who are not Tucker Carlson. Yeah. The internet or whatever. And that's self-censorship. It's not the end of comedy. Nothing's the end of anything that's always a hyperbolic thing it's a real it's affecting people it's it's the result it's the result of a heightened hysteria that to me is not irrational hysteria and even if somebody protests

a comedian which has happened many many throughout history, it does not constitute the end of free speech. So let me tell you, let me tell you whether you agree with it or not. It's just the thing that I tell you has always happened. But let me tell you where I kind of agree with you. But I think for different reasons, there are people like Tim Dillon, Andrew Schultz, Shane Gillis, who, you know, he got thrown off SNL for some old tweet. So these people are all persona non grata

among corporate America, but they're able to do an end run now by distributing them directly to their public. But if not for the fact that YouTube and all that stuff were available to them, then I'd say, yeah, that this is really impacting comedy and further like things like animal houses, a whole genre of movies that can't get made anymore. So it's not the end of comedy, but it's had an impact on comedy. I mean, comedy, comedy being presented by corporate America

is not the comedy that the audience would be happy to see. It's the comedy that they think they can get away with it without getting lambasted on Twitter. That's what's going on a lot. Now that seems, I mean, I,

that might be true. Yeah. They might. I mean, it sounds like you're calling them cowards. What's that? It sounds like I was calling them coward. I What's that? You're not calling them cowards. Spotify was not cowardly.

No, it sounds like you're calling those comedians who are afraid cowards. No. Why would you be afraid? You're a stand-up. Just follow your comic instincts, and presumably the audience will follow. Coward is a nasty way to put it. I would call them... Andrew seems to be doing pretty good.

I think Andrew Schultz seems to be doing good. Andrew Schultz is not a coward. He's fearless. All three of those guys you mentioned are as big as it gets. It is unbelievable. They're doing well. They're fucking fearless. I'm not calling them cowards.

They said, fuck you. I'm not going to say what I want to. You said they're a persona non grata. But all three of them are more want to. You said they were persona non grata, but all three of them are more well-known today than they were 10 years ago. Right, but I'm saying, but Shane Gillis can't be on SNL anymore because of what you say is not real.

I'm saying, but it's because people at NBC chickened out because they found out that he spent 20 seconds doing an Asian accent. And I said, this guy can't have a career on network television. NBC chickened out because they found out that he spent 20 seconds doing an Asian accent. And I said, we can't we're going to this guy can't have a career on on on network television. Lucky for him, there's other options. Sorry. Go ahead. We lost your sound. We lost your sound. The corporate people censored Cliff right there. No, no. No, no. Second, can you hear me? Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. I'm not saying that Shane Gillis didn't get fired. I'm

not saying these things, certain things don't happen. What I am saying is these types of things have happened throughout the history of comedy. When Andrew Dice Clay went on a 70 city tour, I think in 89 or 90, he was protested in 50% of the cities where you appear. There was a picket line, ticket holders to see Dice, got into scuffles outside, you know. You can go back way to the vaudeville days, the whole cliche of... Yeah, but that's not the same thing. They protested him, but he didn't lose his gigs.

Well, there's no social media then, though. I think that's the big thing now. There was always going to be protests in that, but now because of social media, he names protests, and it seems like it's a big huff and puff. Not only did he lose some gigs, he had to cancel a concert in Dallas because the police were going to arrest him.

All right, well, that's terrible. I mean, like... It has happened in the past for a variety of reasons. I never said it's never happened in the past, but in the past it happened. It came from the stodgy right-wingers, and now it's coming from the people who used to be the generation that would be the most. People protest different things for different reasons. So people on the right will protest for one reason.

People on the left will protest for another reason. They don't replace each other. You know, there's still attempts at censorship from the right. There's still attempts at censorship from the left. Left traditionally or historically tries to suppress what they perceive as bigotry. And on the right, sometimes they try to suppress what they perceive as religious bigotry or fundamentalist or evangelical bigotry. And these two forces kind of hit heads. Wasn't it memory serves? Wasn't Dice being protested by feminists?

And maybe we didn't have the term back then, but LGBT? Yeah. Gay groups, AIDS rights groups. And these groups also protested Eddie Murphy and Sam Kinison. And if you watch the controversy and go back and watch the Eddie Murphy controversy, it's fascinating how similar the two controversies are. Very, very, very similar. Cliff, I got to interrupt you for a second. I really don't understand. It's I, I get of course that you can find historical examples of, of all these things, but the consequences to these people were not the same.

Eddie Murphy was the biggest star in the world during this time. Andrew Dice Clay was the biggest comedian in the world. Well, the Beatles had protests when they were the biggest comedian in the world. Well, I mean, the Beatles had protests when they were the biggest group in the world, as opposed to these people like Shane Gillis. He was suppressed. You're never going to work here. And he managed to scrounge it around on his own.

As I've said before, the whole, hold on, hold on. There used to be a marketing cliche, politically incorrect. Traditionally, you would call your show politically incorrect if you want to appeal to a left of center audience. That was an enticing slogan for a left of center audience. Now it's the kiss of death for a left of center, or at least corporate America looks at it that way. Who knows? I don't think that people in general think of political correctness or incorrectness. You hear it a lot in media and in corporate speak, but I don't think that individuals really think in those terms too much. But people being fired from movies,

people complaining about John Voight getting a part lately, I read. And I mean, this is a full embrace of McCarthyism. People do get fired. You know, Jay Johnston was a voice actor on Bob's Burgers, Mr. Show. Bob's Burgers fired him when the photo surfaced from the FBI saying this is a person of interest because he was fired automatically just based on the photo without any evidence without knowing you know and i said i don't know i understand why people are pissed off i don't have any evidence of what What what what what difference does it make? What was he accused of doing?

storming the Capitol and assaulting the police. The photo showed him assaulting somebody. No, you didn't let me finish. I just saw the photo and I phoned his partner. I'm friends with them. And I said, you know, I'm really, I don't think it's right that Bob's burgers would just fire him you know it doesn't seem like um it doesn't seem like legal that they could do that you know without evoking some sort of morals clause and having some sort of evidence and then a month later I saw the

video in which he literally goes inside the Capitol steals a shield from a police officer and starts beating the guy and And I was like, okay, it's gonna get really hard to defend or stand publicly by my own. Right. But that's not why he was fired. It was well, he was fired because he was there. Yeah. No, he's fine. Right. He turned out to have done all those things. So I suppose he was fired on the presumption that he had done those things without the evidence. And then a month later. Right.

So what I'm saying is that the fact that it turned out later on is, I mean, it's kind of irrelevant to the story that it turned out he really did it. You have to judge them on what they knew at the time. Yeah. I didn't think he deserved to be fired out of hand just for that, personally. But I'm also very prejudiced because I'm friends with him. Maybe if I wasn't friends with them, then I wouldn't even think about it. I get the feeling I've heard you before that that you're resisting that you resist acknowledging that we're living in a new, more censorious time. Well, I don't agree. Well, I'd like to distinguish between stand upup and Twitter and YouTube and stand-up and podcast.

I feel like stand-up is stand-up. So I just have to tell you, in the 41 years that I've known the Comedy Cellar, half of that time running the Comedy Cellar, the last few years is the only time I've ever had to deal with this issue at all. And I deal with it fairly regularly. Yeah. So it just doesn't, it doesn't line up with my real life experience to say that this is nothing new. Yes. You can point to something that might've happened here and there,

but this is a new time. It's not the end of comedy. You can, you can, you know, blow the thing up into some ridiculous accusation. Then it's easy enough just to dismiss it. I would never say it's the end of comedy. But it's real. It is real. And it's coming from the left or whatever you want to call these people. And I mean, what do you acknowledge that? What do you call when you say it is real? What do you call it? When you say it is real, what do you call it? There is a cloud that... Because I can acknowledge that it exists strictly or specifically as a result, in my opinion, of social media.

I feel like that is the variable that did not previously exist. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. 100%. I don't think it is the general attitude of the individual that has changed. I don't think it's comedy that has changed, even though some attitudes, you know, they shift. This is acceptable. This is not acceptable. But really, to me, it's like social media that is the inciter and, um, polemics who like to incite, you know,

kind of help play into that in terms of the Shane Gillis. I think that corporations, they don't have any ethics, you know, we know that. Yeah. So Comcast, I own a corporation, but for the most part, you know what I mean? Comcast who owns NBC. If Lorne Michaels had used the same racial slur in a podcast, there's no way Comcast would fire Lorne Michaels. He generates too much revenue for the corporation. Shane Gillis had been hired five days earlier.

He had generated zero dollars for the corporation. So the corporation can pretend to be taking an ethical stance and fire him. That's how corporations operate. Couldn't agree with you more. But I would say that- But just to put a cap on it, the beauty for me about standup, and I'm sure Shane Gillis finds this, and anybody, Gilbert, anybody else who gets in trouble for any reason, you always have stand-up. You can always go back to stand-up.

Podcasts aren't stand-up. Social media isn't stand-up. Doing a TV show, unless you're doing stand-up on TV, but even that is not really stand-up stand-up. The club is stand-up. And all of us who ever did stand-up and auditioned for shitty commercials

or got fired from a tv show it sucked but then you went on stage that night and that's all that matters and to me that's what needs to be examined and i know you're saying you're getting the pushback in the club you know at the start of this podcast i put down uh club owners but uh i just don't think that the hysteria in in either regard that comedians are out of control or that the opposite you can't say anything anymore i don't feel that either is true and the media i think helps build it up and when howie mandel comes out and says it's the end of comedy i'm like what You can't put a glove over your head anymore? What are you talking about?

It just does not seem to correlate to common sense, in my opinion. I don't hugely disagree with anything you said. I would say, yes, social media is a fuel to this. However, so is, and it predates social media a little bit, at least predates the real ubiquitousness of social media, this kind of trigger warnings and this heightened sensitivity

that we really began to hear bubbling up on college campuses. And there's many generations of these- Which college campus? I don't know which college campuses. You certainly don't not know what I'm talking about. The Ivy League, elite, elite, Eastern, elite, Eastern schools. I'm sure it's not a University of Austin.

Which one? Columbia. Yeah. I mean, you could if you Google there's all sorts of professors who have done interviews talking about how they're afraid to say the wrong thing to their students. And how many of them are not on the payroll of a think tank? How would I know that? I don't know. Well, exactly. You got to look into this shit. I don't think the generalizations are helpful. Well, I speak I speak to college kids who tell me about this. We had a comedian, Nimesh Patel,

who's a regular comedian here. Well, you know, and Howie Mandel said that comedy has ended. So you're going to take the word of the college student, you're going to take the word of Nimesh Patel. We had a comedian, Nimesh Patel, who went on stage and told a joke, which if you listen to the joke was a pro-

I love Nimesh, love Nimesh. Was a pro-black joke. He was in the middle of the joke. They cut his mic and threw him off the stage at Columbia. What is that? I mean, it's shit. Is that a think tank?

That was the student saying, we don't want to hear your edgy jokes. We can't bear to hear it. As you can probably tell based on my distasteful personality, I've been thrown off stage many times. But I don't know that it was indicative

of a greater movement other than the fact that the audience was drunk and hated me and I was fucking digging in. But this is not an isolated case. Well, that's just it. I don't see the evidence of a, of a greater movement. You know,

I feel like there's probably more good shows than bad shows when you do stand up on a college campus. Would you say that the same thing could have easily happened 20 years ago, back in the Kristen Wiig era? I thought she was 72. Will you stop confusing this shit, Dan? I think one of the most important distinctions is to also acknowledge that at least today, comedians don't get arrested for doing stand-up.

And there are some comedians that, like I said, Andrew Dice Clay, they were going to arrest him in Dallas in 1990s. So they canceled the show rather than take the risk. that, like I said, Andrew Dice Clay, they were going to arrest him in Dallas in 1990s. So they canceled the show rather than take the risk. 1990s, not Lenny Bruce's era. You know, it's fairly recent. The battle is happening. So now that was the Deep South and now we're all the Deep South, right?

That's like, Andrew Dice Clay was not going to get arrested in New York or in Boston or in any, he was going to get arrested somewhere in deep Texas in the nineties. Texas then wasn't even what Texas is now. So that kind of censorious culture has now spread to all 50 states and it's spread from these, you know, right-wing people to college campuses. And by the way, none of this is controversial. You read John Haidt,

read Greg Lukianoff, read the, you know, subscribe to the FIRE website, Foundation for Individual Rights and Education. There is anecdote after anecdote after anecdote, books written about this stuff with- And how much of this is- How much of it is underwritten by think tanks? How much money is supplied by Heritage Foundation, Cato Institute,

Manhattan Institute. You sound like one of these vaccine deniers. I have no idea. Why wouldn't you look into it? Why wouldn't you look into No, because that's the Hold on, hold on. This is very important.

You need to say, no, no, I looked into this. This is being underwritten and distorted by these think tanks. Just the fact that you came up with a question, you how many you can say how much of it was underwritten by Tucker Carlson? I don't know. I've never heard anybody say that it was. I've never seen that accusation. I've never read an article. I've never heard anybody. Hold on. I've never heard anybody posit. I've never heard anybody. I've never heard anybody posit. I've never heard anybody. I've never heard anybody posit this fact one time.

Asking a question is not an argument. Do you have any evidence this is underwritten by think tanks? Yes. Don't play games. Tell it. Go ahead. Not playing games. Well, you're asking me like how you ask me.

You don't think I really know how much I'm going to tell you. Six. Like, you know, I don't know the answer to that. But when we say it was six, it was six every goddamn time. We speak in generalizations. It only feeds the nonsense of the hysteria. If we get specific, then we can have like honest debates about all your facts on the fire here.

What do you know about the think tank involvement? Fire. I'd have to look up fire. No, on our, like, like you think, all right, I don't know where to go with this. I'm saying you're asking questions. You're almost like you're asking me to prove a negative. I have no idea what you're referring to. And if you can tell me what you're referring to, I'm curious. A lot of the editorials that go after college campuses specifically are generally generated by think tank propaganda. So the Koch brothers underwrite a lot of college campuses now. They'll contribute enormous amounts of money, but there's a rule that you have to teach specific courses a specific way and not teach other courses.

So it's pro-business, it's for corporate deregulation, the philosophy of Hayek and Ayn Rand. There are certain qualifiers in exchange for money. And so- I've seen all of Salma Hayek's movies and I don't- So you're saying that these trigger warnings and these rooms and the coloring books and all this stuff, this is somehow think tank? No, I think they find the things that are the most easily exploitable for a general audience to look at and go, yeah, that does sound like lunacy.

Yes, these people are out of control. Yes, we need to get rid of them. Yes, we need to – the left is out of control. We do need to get rid of them. Yes, we need to, the left is out of control. We do need to suppress them. We need, you know, to me, it's, you find the most vulnerable example that you can find and then exploit it to justify your own. Can I ask you a question about the comedy teller specifically?

In terms of the emails that you're getting, how many emails do you get complaining about comedians saying things that that that they think crosses the line? No, I said we don't get that many because I believe that. The comedy club audience is already self-selected for people who are not that uptight about hearing comedy, so I don't I don't think in the clubs, especially at a club in New York, this is the problem. I do get one or two a week and they're, they're usually ridiculous. And quite often people actually take the opposite meaning of the joke. Like somebody was, somebody was trying to make fun of conspiracy. Every time somebody was trying to make fun of conspiracies.

I was like, yeah. And the new town kids never got shot. You just hear buzzwords. And so you just, how could you make fun of the poor kids in Connecticut. I was like, yeah, and the Newtown kids never got shot. You just hear buzzwords. And so you just go with it. How could you make fun of the poor kids in Connecticut? I'm like, no, they weren't making fun of the kids in Connecticut. I think he had finance.

He was making fun of conspiracy theories every time. So it's like they're just like a hammer, you know, looking for a nail. But in outside the clubs and more corporate environments, I think there is hyper fear now and i and i think

i don't think the comedians are cowards i think the corporate own leadership are cowards and i do think it's beginning to the ice is beginning to break on that because they've begun for me i'm a coward they begin to see a few people they've seen already in the last couple months a few people like chapelle and um what was the other oh and joe rogan that the they their corporate bosses stood by them and nothing happened nothing happened at all and perhaps that would mean that if this happened next year on snl maybe nbc wouldn't have caved on shane gillis well sh Shane was unlucky in the fact that he got announced as a cast member with the first, I believe, Asian man who also happened

to be gay, and the words that they went and caught Shane for were Asian and a gay slur that is no longer allowed. I love Shane. I don't think that Shane is that guy at all. I was there in JFL when he got basically the set of the festival. No one gets anything at JFL anymore and people

were talking about him I was hosting another show and I heard word he's I mean this is not him but they he had the bad luck of someone wanting to do gotcha and going oh you said that word and that word well here's your other cast mate he had that horrible bad luck also are we gonna talk about Neil Young because I have some real thoughts on the trans record I've really been holding it for 20 minutes And I really think we want to get to that You want to say something about Neil? I was just joking, I was sitting on that joke for 20 minutes It didn't get as hard as I wanted

I'm glad I had the balls to do it, I will not be fucking censored We have to wrap it up, I'll tell you a great Neil Young story So I just by coincidence, by total coincidence Not because of any political connections I find myself at a table With Michael Cohen, you know, the Trump fixer. Oh, yeah.

And he was telling Trump stories. Boy, he hates Trump, right? But you know that Trump is a huge Neil Young fan. Used rock in the fee world initially, and then Neil did the cease and desist with that. It was crazy. I am the biggest Neil Young. Neil Young's my favorite musician ever.

Trump took his whole staff to see a Neil Young cover. And Trump's there, cause only love can break. And can you imagine Donald Trump loving Neil Young? It's crazy. It's surreal. Yeah. I love Neil Young. My special, it's two different sets. I'm not nervous,

but comedy fans tend to be like pro Joe Rogan on that. And a part of me is like,. I'm where I'm kind of I'm not nervous, but comedy fans tend to be like pro Joe Rogan on that. And a part of me is like, oh, my God, I'm wearing a Neil Young Tonight's the Night shirt. Are people going to attack me and call me some liberal commie because I'm because I love the Freedom record. I mean, it's just what it is. By the way, if you if any musician that you had said, can you imagine Trump as a fan? I would say no, because I don't see Trump. I don't associate Trump with music. Well, yeah, but Neil Young

is like poetry and maudlin and sentimental. I'm trying to figure out what music Trump would like, and I'm drawing a blank. I would picture Trump as like a Sinatra guy. That's pretty clear. Do you think he likes Neil Young's music or do you think he likes his fame?

He loves Neil Young's music. According to Michael Cohen, I have no independent knowledge. No, no. Neil talked about it. He's met him backstage a million times. Loves. He's a rock guy. Sugar Mountain. Terrible impression.

If I was a good impressionist. A good obscure song to go with, Dan. Makes me love you even more, Dan. Everyone's getting more love from me. It's absolutely fantastic. Harvest Moon. That was pretty good. That was really good. Do your Chris Rock. I heard you got rock.

I don't do impressions. Cliff, as you have noticed. It sounded a little bit like Casey Kasem, that Harvest Moon cadence. Casey Kasem. Is there any way he wasn't going to get the gig doing America's Top 40? I mean, he walked in, he says,

I'm Casey and I'm here to... Yeah, you got the part. You got the job. You guys have heard the famous Casey Kasem outtakes. The greatest. Oh, the one with the dog? Yeah. Yeah, it's good.

What is it again? Well, he's yelling because somebody, he had to do a dead dog dedication, and they started with an up-tempo song, and he's ranting about it. An up-tempo song for a dead dog dedication. It was Where the Streets Have No Name by U2, and I believe they took the audio of that.

There was like a late 80s, early 90s noise punk, like Negative Land did it. It was like a college radios early 90s noise punk like like negative land did it it was like a it was a it was like a college radio when that existed hit and it was something i grew up like liking in that it was weird but it was yeah huge it's weird they had bands like that art of noise and shit yeah this this new standard that the boss can never like lose his shit and rant or that you know every every every employee with a complaint is, it has a, has a legitimate point. This has got to stop.

I mean, this is, this is just ridiculous. Well, leadership always, there's going to be parts of it. It's just someone's, I, I, it's weird. Cause I was just talking to someone about the Bill Murray thing. It's hilarious that they're saying like Bill Murray is like troublesome on set, you know, like 20 years ago. Uh, I love Gene Hackman. He is a known cranky pants and asshole.

And a royal ton of people were terrified of him. They had Bill Murray would show up on his day off, Bill Murray's day off to protect everyone else from Gene Hackman. Oh, my God. He would come in. Wes Anderson, who's done like a thousand films now, would shake around Gene Hackman and would he begged Bill Murray to come in. And so Bill, you think about that. Bill Murray's your watchdog is just coming in there like the big chest and shit that's hilarious to me and now

he's problematic but like great artists are always going to have moments where shit comes out the best one is what what bill o'reilly wasn't that like we'll do it live yeah but everyone has moments i've had moments and i'm nobody. Who hasn't lost their shit. But you know what? The only time I've seen Noam lose his shit was against our dear friend Aruba Ray. Oh, that was the worst. When was this? Because he threw me under the bus, Ray Allen.

I don't want to. The worst. I'm just saying that's the only time I've ever seen him. That made me so angry. Now it's time for your receipt. Get it out now. But in general, you know, it's a lot of pressure to be a boss. It is a fucking lot of pressure.

And, you know, sometimes sometimes you lose it. I mean, I'm not defending people who mistreat employees. That's terrible. But there's a fine line with sports, too. They get mad at coaches. I mean, can coaches not yell at players anymore? I mean, that also used to be a lot of fun when I see Billy Martin yelling at someone when I was a kid. I mean, I've had I've had untold incidents where employees lost their shit and employees went into meltdowns and employees were screaming, employees were ranting.

And I would never think that this was like something I could use against them or would want to use against. It was like, that's, that's what happens. You know, things got hot and somebody lost their temper a little bit. How do we, how do we, Oh, with, uh, with, uh, uh, Casey. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So anyway, um, we have to go, you're not in New York, right? He's in beautiful Hollywood, USA. That's a nice looking apartment. You should come to the cellar some night. I would love to. I haven't been there since before the pandemic. Last time I was there sort of like bittersweet memory now was with Gilbert.

We did an episode of his podcast and then Jeff Ross, I guess, I think he was doing roast battle that night at the cellar and invited gilbert to come down and so when we came down the show was already in progress and man what a cool memory it is to walk into the cellar when it was packed all the way up the stairwell crammed with people and to walk in with gilbert in front of me like the red sea parted to let him through the club. A chair materialized from nowhere for Gilbert, not for me. And I'll tell you what didn't materialize, a tip when Gilbert's involved. Gilbert got fired, right? I'm sure not, but it's a great club and I had a great time there.

Thank you very much. And I do appreciate your kind of approach of deflating this a little bit because it is exaggerated and people are over the top about it. But I would only say that as someone who's on the front lines of it, it's not nothing as you seem. Well, and as somebody personally, I don't I don't feel the sensation of being offended. I never have. And certainly not in comedy or anything else. I always consider myself and i'm sure everybody here too opposed to bigotry and i just feel that certain types of protest are not necessarily equal to other types of protest but everybody's free to protest and protest is not

necessarily the same as censorship yeah i have to i just realized why didn't they take the amps down the call night is music night so no one has to go down and play his guitar. No, he's he's very unassuming. You wouldn't know what to look at him. But he's a very, very talented guitarist. He's also an Oud player. I don't know if your Oud is fixed or not. Yeah, well, no, I just. Cliff, I'm so glad you finally agreed to come on video.

I hope your experience was a good one. No, you're not the first guest under whose skin Noam has gotten. I got under your skin? Well, I'm assuming you did. You must have. I got to go. I'm just going to listen to Neil Young. And podcast at ComedySally.com.

Follow us on social media at Dan Natterman. The James Madden. And June 3rd, the Check Spot special on YouTube. Me doing stand-up, the worst part of the comedy show. The Check Spot. Me doing a Q&A. I'm very proud of it. I was told not to put it the fuck out.

And I did it just like Neil Young's trans album. I told you I had goddamn opinions on that record. And where can we find you, Cliff? You can see me in the new Judd Apatow documentary, George Carlin's America. I just finished. They were wonderful. And it's a great goddamn two for two wonderful documentaries by Judd Apatow about comics.

It was spectacular. It was spectacular. Drunks, thieves, and scoundrels. And you can, and I would suggest buying that and Wayne Fetterman's book. Why not?

Why not get both? Why not? Why not? Oh, that's a pretty good way. And Fetterman impression and excellent way. And Fetterman. Get them both. Hey, Fetterman's. Why not? Why not? That's a pretty good Wayne Fetterman impression. An excellent Wayne Fetterman impression. Hey, why? Why?

Get them both. Hey, I'm just saying. Get both basketball. Just saying. Well done. Well done. Good Wayne Fetterman impression. We thank you so much.

We'll see you next time on Life on the Table. Bye-bye. Bye, everybody. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Bye. Bye. Bye.