The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Kruger Dunn and Carmen Lynch

Episode Date: June 2, 2023

Noam Dworman, Dan Naturman and Periel Aschenbrand are joined by comics Kruger Dunn and Carmen Lynch. They discuss Autism, Carmen's upcoming special and Al Pacino.

This is Live from the Table, the official podcast of the world-famous comedy cellar coming at you on SiriusXM 99, Raw Dog, and available wherever podcasts are found. Dan Natterman with Noam Dorman, owner of the world-famous, ever-expanding comedy cellar. Still going upward, Noam. I know nothing lasts forever, and I know you're concerned that what goes up must come down, but we're still going up. Hopefully, Dan, hopefully. Why are we still going up? Well, because you're opening a new room, and there's certainly no sign of any decrease in the number of people coming here, at the very least.

No, no, things are good, Dan. Things are good. Well, it's good to hear it. We'll try to keep that going as long as possible. Periel Ashenbrand is also with us, and she is our producer. And there's been some controversy over whether that term is most accurate,

but we'll leave that for another discussion. Let's just face it. She doesn't want production duties. She just wants to be on the radio, or whatever you call it. Well, everybody wants the glory of the on-air role, but somebody's got to do the grind. I'll give you an example. I asked Perrielle ages

ago, listen, I can't keep track of these guests. Can you please send me whatever link I sent you the day of the interview so I can review? Because sometimes I'll read an article like three months ago. I said, this would be an interesting guest. And then I'll just say like, Jeff Goldberg is coming on today. I'm like, who the fuck is Jeff Goldberg?

Oh, you are getting into such dangerous territory right now. Well, he doesn't seem scared to me. No, he doesn't, but yeah, wait, wait. And then she'll say to me, do you want me to send you that article? I'll say, yes, I've asked you to send me every week.

What is it? What? You know what I started doing when you asked me to do that? What? I started posting all of those links in the calendar. Is that what I asked you to do? Listen, you don't even write back the emails. No, if it's in the calendar, that's good. Was this in the calendar?

Yes. They're all in the calendar. When was the last time you ever checked the calendar? Answer that honestly. Could I have a Werther's Originals? No, I'd check it from time to time. No, I brought Werther's Originals with them. Wait, wait, wait, wait, because the audacity is just unbelievable.

Because I could send you the link, and I would never even know if you got it, because you don't even answer the emails. Pretty tasty, a Werther's original. They're great. You know what? I retract. She put it in the calendar. Check all of the guests. Go back

to the day that I got the email. Hey, Perrielle. You know what? She's right. This is happening with some frequency lately. You notice that? That she's right? Yeah, it does happen. All right, so go ahead.

Okay, so by the way... I'd just like to bask in my moment of glory here for a minute. This Friday, I don't have any sets at the Comedy Cellar. I told Esty I was available and I don't have any sets. I'm not asking you to talk to Esty on my behalf nor am I really complaining. I just think it's something worth noting

that I feel like I've never been funnier and never been more prolific. And yet... So, there's two possibilities. One is that I'm not more funny and more prolific than ever. We'll call that the delusional scenario.

Go ahead. That certainly can happen. Second scenario is I am every bit as funny and prolific as I think I am, but nobody gives a shit because everybody's killing anyway, and you can kill with crap just as easily as you can kill with good stuff. We've had this discussion. Noam disagrees, but that's this discussion. Noam disagrees. But that's my position.

Noam doesn't agree with that. Noam feels that the audience knows best. Now, my wife called me just now. Go ahead. As a third possibility is that I just don't complain. And so of all the people that, because there's a lot of people, there's a lot of new comics that need to be put on the schedule. And so since I don't complain, I'm the easiest one not to use.

And again, by the way, I mean, you probably think I'm complaining. I'm just bringing this up as something as an interesting discussion point. Is Dan Natterman not getting favorably reviewed by whoever you go to for feedback? You ask the waitst staff, I suppose. Every now and again, you do a spot check yourself. Well, all I can say is this, Dan. Esty and I had our weekly meeting, and she said to me, a lot of people are going to be very upset about the lineup this week

because there was a lot of people I couldn't give as many spots as I usually do because there were certain you know certain people that are seldom in town that she had to give spots to, certain famous people she had to give spots to and such and she knew and I got mad

at her it was an interesting discussion I said well, what do you suggest? Because I felt like she's pressuring me to give spots to, your name didn't come up, to other people. And I'm like, Esty, we have to please our customers. We have to give, like every show has to be as good as it can be. I don't know what to do.

I mean, you know, you have to explain to people like that's the way it is sometimes because you know we have to do what we have to do I wish I could be more frank about like all the details but and then I had like a private moment with myself I'm like wondering

what is the right thing to do in these situations would but I said now this is going to be offensive to you in some way, but I said, well, that wouldn't be the first time. I would say, like, no chef would, you know, serve, not inferior. That was the word that came to mind, but it's not the word I meant to say, would serve anything but the absolute best. No. No chef would serve anything but what he expected to achieve the maximum

enjoyment from the eater, from the diner. Okay. Because of some diplomatic concern. Now, maybe he would. The Natterman burger is off the menu for this project. But then you try to explain that to the customer, who say, you know what, I didn't really like it as much. And I guess what I'm saying is that the business,

as customers, we all expect that we're getting for our money the very best product that the purveyor could have given us. And if we find out that they didn't, we're like, what the fuck? Did he charge me less? Like, you could have given me that and you didn't because, you know, you're dating someone? I don't know if most people think about it in that level of detail, but, you know, certainly you want to give the best show you can. So, and once you start making those compromises, it's very tough. So, and then I'm always spooked by all the clubs that were on top of the world.

Improv, Couch Rising Star, Carolines, you can go down the list, who didn't stay on top of the hill. They just didn't. They had everything. Once you're on top of the hill, it's not easy to come down. It's just not easy to take down.

But in your hierarchy of, hello. But the way they certainly came down was through some process of overconfidence that led them to believe that they could take their eye off the ball. And the only way that I believe in the idea of corporate culture and the only way that I feel like I can keep the train on the rails is by just insisting every week, Tess, listen, I know, I'm happy. I don't have to make those calls, SD. That's your lot in life, but we have to do it. Just got to do it.

Might I ask you, when, you want to give the best show possible now, the best show doesn't necessarily mean who kills the hardest, because the person that kills the hardest might be doing so with jokes that everybody's already heard, and you have repeat customers. So you want to be mindful of that. Also, famous people, there are famous people that, or people that are relatively famous that might not kill as hard as a non-famous person. Like who? But the audience gets, I'm not going to name names, but you know.

Then I reject your premise. But suppose a famous person doesn't kill as hard as a non-famous person. Does the fame, the audience enjoys seeing a famous person. Yes, they do. To what extent does that trump the killing? It trumps. Okay. Well, it depends how bad.

I mean, to see a famous person just be awful or drunk or whatever it is. Well, oftentimes they're doing new material, for example, so they might not kill as hard. Sometimes, look, I don't want to name names, and I don't want to even, you I don't want to even give a hint. Give initials. But there are people that are well-known from television shows, and that stand-up might not be their main thing.

Their main thing might be something else, acting. Yeah, we don't have people like that. That would not trump. I'm talking about famous stand-up comedians. Listen, it's a tough thing. It's a tough thing to do. And what about, as I mentioned, the first thing I said was,

to what extent do you give weight to somebody that's new? Because if you have repeat business, that matters. Well, actually, it was the newbies, as it were, that Esty was most concerned about because she was worried about them getting discouraged. And that is a legitimate concern. But I reminded her that there was a time when we only had two shows during the week and three or four shows on the weekend. So, you know, eight, 10 to 28 shows a week. And now we have, you know, something like 50 shows a week, right?

So, I'm sorry, 18 shows a week as opposed to, the hell's the matter with me? 18 shows a week as opposed to close to 50 shows a week. And we managed it with 18. And certainly people weren't getting that many spots when we had 18 shows a week. So, you know, I think we'll survive that. So do you think that sometimes people who have been around longer

are sort of expected to maybe understand? Look, I understand. I didn't make it. What are you going to do? You gave me 30 years to I understand. I didn't make it. What are you going to do? You gave me 30 years to make it. I didn't do it. I mean, I get it. But I'm just bringing it up. And I think we provoked an interesting discussion

and a very on-brand discussion. I've been dealing with this my whole life. When I had the band in the Cafe Wild, there'd be a singer, there'd be supposed to be a guest spot, and then somebody else was doing better. And I just couldn't, I didn't find the time to bring

them up, and I was trying to develop them, but I just, you know, the show has to come first. I know that that's a grading, there's no proper way to put this where you can't take it the wrong way, because the language just doesn't, like the Eskimos have ten words for snow or whatever it is,

I don't know if that's true, but we don't have these fine gradations for the things I'm trying to discuss. But this is no knock on you. I'm just saying when, let's say, who's huge now? Like Shane Gillis, right? When Shane Gillis is in the hall and wants to go on. Sure, I get it. I got to put him on. I completely get it, by the way.

And I'm confident enough in my own, maybe it's delusion, I don't know, whatever it is. I'm confident enough in my own. Nobody's more confident than himself in a delusional position. Well, you know, look, I... You're not delusional, Dan. You're very funny. I'm confident that I'm very funny. When I don't get spots, I don't think, oh, I'm not funny.

I think, I think, whatever. I don't, so I'm cool with it. I just think it was, I thought we provoked an interesting discussion, and it's a worth point, worth discussing. Can we introduce our guest? You can, yes. Okay, well, we have with us Kruger Dunn. It's not his real name, obviously.

Could be, could be. There's a, no, because he obviously, the Dunn-Kruger effect, it's called. Dunning, Dunning. Whatever, yeah, so that's obviously. That's how I know I'm going to get along with someone, though, when they know what that is. Well, I Googled it, but whatever. I didn't know it prior to doing it. But before we introduce Mr. Dunning, Dunn.

Dunn. Kruger Dunn. Oh, Mr. Dunn. I don't know if you want to give your real name or you want to stay Kruger Dunn. No, I'd like to keep my day job. Kruger Dunn. Kruger Dunn. Oh, that's interesting.

We're going to get to that. Hold that thought. That's what I tell you. On the subject of coincidences, I'm a big fan of coincidences. Synchronicity. The guy, Sicknick, who died the day after he was a cop at the January 6th riot. Everybody was sure he got murdered by the internet. He just died.

And there's all these coincidences. Today, I was doing an interview, a television pitch for a show. And we came on the call early before the executives came on and they were commenting. You're always on time. You're always early. I said, yeah,

I always come on early to the zoom calls because you never know when windows is going to auto update. You never know when zoom is going to auto update. You never know when your computer is like, like you got it. You never know. It's like to be there five minutes early to make sure that I'm, everything's okay. So I'm here, you never know. I like to be there five minutes early to make sure that everything's okay.

So I'm here, everything's fine. Go. The important executives get on. The people representing me do like a 10 minute spiel and say like,

now I want to introduce you to the owner of the comedy so I know I'm Dwarven. All the power went out in my house. Right at that moment. Right at that moment, all the power went out in my house. Right at that moment. Right at that moment, all the power went out in my house.

I'm disconnected from the Zoom. I frantically tried to get my phone to connect on the Zoom, but of course, smart enough, I realized, oh no, the Wi-Fi is out, so I have to disconnect the Wi-Fi. I used cellular, but it's weak connection. Then the computer finally reboots.

Windows updates. Windows gets 30% of its update. Reboots again. I swear to God, I have to get it. And then, okay, open up Zoom. Zoom updates. Guaranteed. Then I got Zoom open open and the camera

freezes because the zoom update is not compatible with the fucking whatever it is I mean this went on for like 15 minutes of one technical problem after another so these coincidences so his fucking name could be

Kruger Dunn or whatever it is it could be the coincidences are inevitable. This is amazing. Kruger Dunn is the producer of Humor for the Hungry, a comedy show where all proceeds go to feed people experiencing homelessness in L.A. And his comedy album In the Moment with Kruger Dunn is available on FullDork.com and soon on Spotify.

I've never been in a marathon, but I have completed several marinarathons. I'll never be in the Tour de France, but I'm a legend at Olive Garden's Tour of Italy. Tour de Ligny, if you will. Okay, Kruger Dunn is with us. If there's anything we left out you want to say, go ahead. Well, he came to our attention

because he wrote an article about us. I understand. So summarize the article. You can summarize to say? Go ahead. Well, he came to our attention because he wrote an article about us. I understand. So summarize the article. You can summarize the article. Go ahead. Just basically that this is my favorite podcast. Really? I listen to it every weekend.

It's also the first alt-right podcast I've ever been on. My heart is racing. I don't know if I'm ever going to work again. Alt-right. Yeah, I mean, you treat everybody fairly. Oh, okay. Thank you. I don't see how we're supposed to know who's better if we're not told.

I actually, the reason I became a fan. You scared the shit out of me. Wait, talk closer to the mic. I'm sorry. That's okay. First, I'm a big fan of Mr. Natterman. I know you say Mr. for, Should I say Mr. Dorman? No, Dan is fine.

Dan, huge fan of Dan. So I started listening to podcasts because of that. And then I heard you say on one episode, when someone gave you a fact, you said, oh, I guess I was wrong. I've never heard anyone say that they're wrong before. I was like, oh, he's listening, considering facts, and so that's why I listen every week.

You must have caught the one episode where Noam said that. No, Noam will admit. It's a couple times here and there. So the headline of his article was, Comedy Cellar Owner Bullies Podcast Community with Radical Fairness by Kruger Dunn. The Comedy Cellar Comics Table is a mecca

for many aspiring stand-up comedians. The elite chosen regular performers at the Legendary Club gather there and engage in witty repartee ranging from political debate to identity-appropriate racial slurs. Nothing can taint...

Nothing could... I can't even read. I make it big. Could taint this Colin Quinian. Nothing could taint this Colin Quinian version of utopia. Nothing except the owner, miss, and om dwarven. This cisgender straight man is hell-bent on ruining the table's sanctity through insidious ploys using radical fairness

that trap us into agreeing to his harmful ideals of being fair to everyone. A typical Live from the Table podcast episode begins discussing road taxes in New York. Oh, we should talk about that. But before you know it, Mr. Dorman has convinced you all convinced you that all humans are equal in

capability, except for in extreme cases in which help should be given socially and that no specific immutable characteristic of a person should be used to invalidate nor add extra credence to their claims. And it goes on from there. So I do want to say that the table, that the notion that the table downstairs is a hotbed of lively debate is, I think, somewhat exaggerated. Noam does most of his debating at other tables. Well, it has changed. So, first of all, we used to do our podcast

downstairs. We came up here, was it for COVID? COVID, just because of COVID. And because during COVID we started doing video and then we did not want to relinquish the video. That makes sense. Why are you looking at me? We could do video

probably downstairs. I'm not sure relinquish is the right word. It's good enough. Why don't you go ahead and look that up? She asked why I looked like that. I don't know. We need to get bogged down in vocabulary. We all know it. So I think we should go back down, and I think we should get the cameras down there.

All right, let's go. I'll grab this camera. I'm not right. All right. Not at this exact moment, of course, but I'm fine with that. What was good about when we did downstairs is sometimes people that were in the room would stop in.

I mean, Chris Rock briefly, I think, sat down for a second or two. We had Amy Schumer, I think Sarah Silverman. In those days, if you were hanging around, because we were down there anyway, they might stop by. So you could hope to get perhaps bigger names that way.

The downside is Keith Robinson was giving us the stink eye every time we did it because he just didn't like the fact that we were occupying space. But I like when he would interrupt and yell at all of you. That was some of the best episodes. That was best. I think we should. He's right. We should.

Let's bring it back downstairs. It's also a vibe downstairs. And, um. It's also a vibe. And then the table, I mean, when I'm at the table, we still, we still yell and scream at each other, but. But when you're not there, I, I mean, to be honest, I'm usually not there either, but I, I don't think the conversations are typically, uh, you know, uh, heated debate. We had an awesome one a couple nights ago with Michael Che and Jon Hamm from Mad Men, and I was there.

At the table or at another table? Well, some people were at the table. It was two tables yelling at each other. It still happens. But you're right. So go on. Why won't you give... So you have a day job somewhere?

I do have a day job, yes. At a very large company. I only recently started like two months ago. And what do you do there? I manage websites. It's super boring. We don't want... You're a programmer?

I was a developer. Now I'm a manager. What does a manager of websites do? Decide what goes on the website. Talks to retail. I don't want to say specifically. It's a giveaway what industry it is. But talk with the distributor.

Well, at propos of websites, when's the new Comedy Cellar website going live? Maybe you want to manage it. Ooh, new comedies. Yeah, 100%. Are you kidding me? I'll move in. I'll live here. You need a 24-hour manager?

Let's do it. You would think that your political points of view wouldn't have anything to do with your ability to manage a website. You would think that. But I'm scared of not even getting on open mics if I said a true fact, let alone big companies. They could lose a lot of money if I said the wrong thing. Well, how outrageous are your heartfelt beliefs? I don't think there are. You read a lot of them in that article.

I don't think they are. You read a lot of them in that article. I don't think they're outrageous at all. So, I mean, are you like you want to build a wall? No. You don't want to build a wall? No, I'm not Republican. But if you felt the wall would be an effective means of stemming the tide of immigration, you would consider it? Illegal immigration.

No. Illegal immigration. I still would not consider it. It makes no sense but if but if a wall could if you could be convinced that a wall would make it easier to regulate the border and allow a southern border of the united states and to and to allow for a fairer immigration if it's for canada like south park pitch let's do no it's just it's a wall's never gonna do there's ocean well but i'm giving you it's just a wall's never going to do it. There's oceans. Well, but I'm giving you a hypothetical.

Dan is a fan. There's nothing intrinsically bad about a wall. If it doesn't work, then it's bad. Right. But if it can work, and maybe it can't work perfectly, but maybe it can work a little bit, maybe it... If it works for all borders, then sure. I still wouldn't want it if it was, why are you choosing one border?

Well, that's the border where we get the most illegal immigration, I think. I don't know how much is coming across. So that's fine. So you almost seem defiantly almost to the left of center on this. So what issue is your most controversial issue? What issue, if you were to be on a retreat with the people you work with, and you were talking in your sleep, what issue? If you're in the most trouble and ruined your life and career, please say it now on to this very popular podcast.

What honest utterance might come out of your mouth in your sleep that will get you to the most trouble? I'll go low stakes as an example. In L.A. right now, I live in L.A., there's a lot of open mics that do 50% female and non-binary, 50% male. They go in separate buckets for the draw. Wait, wait. 50% female and non-binary go in one bucket? So you could be female or non-binary.

Correct. I thought you meant and. But your could be female or non-binary. Correct. I thought you meant and. But your programming knows and and or. It's or. Yeah, yeah. Female and non. Female or non. 50% female or non-binary.

Right. And you go into this one bucket. And or, actually. And or, yes. Yeah, yeah. Nand. Yeah, okay. Or if you're a male, then you go in another bucket.

Then they draw 50% equally. But there's about 300 names in the male bucket and like 15 in the other bucket. So explain to Toriel what that means. Shut up. I don't understand why... I shouldn't have even laughed. I won't get booked anywhere in LA just for laughing.

Very quickly, I want to loop... I'm just looping in Carmen Lynch very briefly. But now you're in the middle of his thought. No, Wait, I'm just looping in Carmen Lynch very briefly. Not in the middle of his thought. No, no, this is just a very brief looping in of Ms. Carmen Lynch, who has joined us. Carmen, this is Kruger Dunn. He wrote an article on the cellar praising gnomes, even handed his fairness. And yeah, so and he won't tell us his real name because he's got a job and he's got some controversial views.

I also changed it. I got sick of him. That was it? That was looping around and now we can go? I want to finish, but I also know that you're obviously a very bright person. Have you considered the video of this podcast? Meaning I look bad? No, meaning that somebody might recognize you. Oh, no.

I don't think anyone I work for likes comedy. I think they're afraid of it, probably. Okay, okay. Because we can blur you, maybe. Oh, can you do one of those voices, too? Like on 60 Minutes? No, we're not doing that. Well, we can.

We could. But that would just ruin the experience. But we can get Danny to blur him. I think it'll be all right. I mean, unless he's like sex trafficking children, I don't think we need to blur his face out. Well, then he doesn't want to give his name. Anyway, okay, so.

Well, in general, I also when I tour. I mean, I'm ready to take his, get the video, take a screenshot of it, do a Google image search, find out. I'll tell you my name off air if you want. No, I kind of want to track it. Yeah, Google image search. I'll tell you my name off air if you want. I kind of want to track it.

It's not a secret. So obviously, if you're a male, you have a 1 out of 300 chance of getting on it. And if you're female or non-binary... But these are at major clubs in LA, you said? Or at open mics or something? Open mics. Some of the major clubs do it, but they don't announce that they're doing it. If you know the hosts,

though, you know that they're putting names in different places. Now, what is their rationale? Go ahead, Carmen. That's just still interesting. Turn Carmen up. That men still get 50% and women and non-binaries have to. So they get a quarter. They get 25%.

No, or. Well, basically, everyone in that bucket goes up. Okay. And then a few. Oh, okay. Gotcha, gotcha. There'll be, say, 30 spots. All right.

All right. But take it easy, Carmen. She's Latina, you know, so she has a bad temper. I wish I had a temper. I thought maybe it'd be more fair if it was like thirds, but never mind. How about it be fair if it's just like

everybody who comes there just gets picked out of a hat is that really unfair open mic like it's we don't even want to be there really we just have to be there it's not so much that like it it just the the fact that we yeah that we even have to do that but then when you have men have 50 like it just didn't sound like they were all being treated equally but that's i understand it what is your sense of how the big clubs in la book their shows with regard to diversity and having a diverse lineup oh um as a fan of i assume you go to the club i would say it's super fair because it's almost entirely how many seats you can fill and how many followers you have

i don't remember the last time i saw someone that wasn't like you look them up and they didn't have at least like 100,000. So well, that's interesting because Noam, you I mean, book that way a little bit because we mentioned Shane Gillis. He's a big name now. So you will use him not just because he's funny, but because he's a big name. But generally speaking, you don't necessarily look to the social media following. I don't pay any attention to that at all.

But that is related to fame, and you do look at fame. I'm thinking about that. I don't know that it is. There's a lot of people with big social media followings that are not famous. They just have these niche things. And that are also not funny. Yeah, but when I say Shane is huge right now, it's not just that he's

becoming more and more famous. He's also on fire, which is not the same thing. He's just destroyed. And he's funny. That's what I know. His level of fame, if he was not funny, he doesn't have, in my opinion, that's what no, his, his level of fame. If he was not funny, like he doesn't have,

in my opinion, he's not like Chris rock famous. So that just seeing him is like, Oh my God, I saw Chris rock. Chris rock. He's just becoming more and more well known. But if he wasn't funny,

that would not, he, it would not be, it would not warrant putting him on. I feel like people say the, the key is fame. We'll get them to come watch you once. And then if you bomb, they're not going to come

back. Shane kills. Like good looks. Well, to give an example, Al Franken used to come. No, that'll always work. People never get tired of that. To give an example, Al Franken used to work here. You probably don't want to go down this road, but I don't care. Al Franken, very famous. He was a senator. So I think the audience got

a kick out of seeing him. Yeah. But, and you felt, you certainly weren't going to say no to him. But do you think that the audience, that he was killing hard enough to make the, like, you know what I'm getting at. No, we had a difficult interaction with Senator Franken. Why? Well, he also went long, too. Take it easy, Carmen. I'm having coffee.

But when someone's not killing it all the time and they're set as long, it's... But were you happy to have him despite maybe that he wasn't killing as hard as maybe? When he first came, the first night, I was thrilled. Senator Franken, holy shit, this is awesome. So of course we're going to put him on. And he hadn't been on in like, you know, 75 years or something. He hadn't been on in a long, long time. I don't think he's a stand-up by...

But I don't think he'd been even performed. So he had a lot of nervous energy. I don't know if anybody saw him that first night he went on. He had a lot of... You could tell he was excited. There was adrenaline flowing. And he was really funny. And he did around 10, 15 minutes.

And he was quick and just had that energy. Then I came like two weeks later and saw him and he had gotten used to the stage. So he didn't have quite that edge and he was doing like a half an hour. And then he was still funny. He was still funny. That's when I started seeing him. I was like half an hour.

And then, but the, but the audience was the law of diminishing returns had kicked in at about 12 minutes. And then they were politely sitting through the rest of it. I don't want to overstate it. With periods of laughter. It's not like he's

a funny guy. He's a smart guy. But it was just long and slow. Plotting a little bit. And then long and slow is brutal. It's brutal. Those are the worst brutal words slow might be the worst thing you'd say i introduced a song and when i had a band i'd say this is we're gonna do a very we're gonna do a very slow song now but we'll try to do it quickly anyway so um yeah he's very plotting i wish he would do it quickly so and then there was a thing with the MCs.

Now, this is hearsay. I don't know that it's true, but the MC said to him, listen, I just want to politely, because we don't know how to get him off, I just want to remind you, I'm going to give you the light at 15 minutes. And he says,

hearsay, you can give me the light, and I'll get off when I want. Oh. Now, that may not be true. That may not be true. That's good gossip, however. It is, and I heard more gossip.

Oh, go ahead, go ahead. There was a certain comedian, I won't name who he is, he's very funny. He had to go on after to clean up what Al did, and an audience member slapped him a $100 bill and said, thank you so much. Another alt-right audience member slapped him a $100 bill and said, thank you so much. Another alt-right audience member? What? An alt-right audience member? Oh, I don't know.

I like that, though. That's positive reinforcement instead of negative. That's good. Now, the only reason I'm talking, and you know, I don't say things like this on there, but we asked him for a signed picture. And he said, said I had some conversation I don't even remember who it was

but I had some conversation about politics told him some stuff he didn't know I had a good talk with him and actually I found him to be pretty reasonable about politics he was saying stuff he never would have said when he was in the Senate and I was also telling him he should run against Gillibrand

because Gillibrand is the one who stabbed him in the back and then he wrote does a signed picture, and he says, Dear Noam, thanks for the lean brisket, Al Franken. Which I took as, you know, like, you fucking could be like, heck, I'm like a Jewish deli owner thing, you know? Well, but I think maybe he just was trying to be funny.

It didn't land. Yeah, that's right. It didn't land. It didn't land. But I don's right. It didn't land. It didn't land. But I don't think there was ill intent on his part. What does that mean? It means like, well, the only... Is that like an expression?

No, it means like, I'm the Jew butcher. Doesn't lean mean dry? Lean is usually good when it comes to... If someone said my mom's brisket was lean, we'd be fighting. No, isn't lean a good thing? If you want it lean. Yeah, people want it. A lot of people like it.

Well, I apologize. I'm a fattie. The point is that. I think that was a compliment. No, it was not a compliment. He reduced me to kind of a caricature of a Jewish club owner. Like Spike Lee might have done. I think you're overthinking that.

No, no, I'm not. Did you scratch it out and hang it up anyway? It's hung up. It's hung up. I think he just thought it was funny. A brisket. Liam Brisket is a funny kind of... It's funny. It's just funny the way you talk. You know what? Maybe you're right. Maybe we should cut out that.

I just think you're overthinking it. I mean, I just don't think that... I think he might be projecting a little bit. But I'm glad you did. Maybe Dan's right. But I'm glad that you did because we got some really good stuff. I mean, that's good stuff. Juicy brisket would have been better. Yeah, a juicy brisket spelled J-E-W-C-Y.

That would have been offensive. And he's Jewish, too. So, like, what do you care if he's, you know. If I was a black club owner who said thanks for the fried chicken, it wouldn't be that. It wouldn't be that overt. And he is Jewish. Two Jews kibitzing, for goodness sakes. It's one Jew to another, maybe.

It's like a funny thing. This podcast is really stupid. I think that it... Thank God we have Carmen here. Let's... We had had some conversations. It's a lean podcast. I don't know.

This is unbelievable. I didn't realize he was Jewish. No, come on. All the Me Too. I didn't realize either. All the people accused of Me Too are Jewish. Did you ever see his act? Where he went long and refused to get off stage?

Where he talks about the town that he's from in the suburb of Minneapolis, which is like the most Jewish area of Minneapolis. And he goes, the Coen brothers are from there. In fact, a lot of Coen brothers are from there. You know, because it's a very Jewish area. Right, right, I got it. Have you seen or listened to Al Franken?

I mean, apparently not. But I think that you're completely, like you've turned that little note into something that, he would probably be appalled to hear that you took it that way. But again, glad you did, because you were able to be more forthcoming. Every other comedian says, thanks, I love the commies, I love the spots, I look forward to my favorite place.

He's trying to be funny. It didn't land, it didn't land. Is that when he stopped getting spots? No, I would still give him spots. No, I'm just kidding. Well, you'll have to deal with, he is funny. Okay. He is funny. It didn't land. It didn't land. Is that when he stopped getting spots? No, I would still give him the spots. No, I'm just kidding. Well, you'll have to deal with... He is funny. Okay.

He is funny. Is that outrageous, though? I mean, I can't imagine somebody would make up that he would say, I'll get off stage when I want to get off stage. Nobody makes anything up,

but people change a word here, a word there. They spin. I've been dealing with it my entire career. Maybe he meant when I feel like it based on what I already said. Like sometimes I say, give me a five-minute light. Then later someone asks, when do you want the light? And he said, well, you know, light at 10 and I'll get off.

Or he could have been totally just kidding. Light the lean brisket. Isn't that why Seinfeld doesn't work here? Because he thought somebody gave him the light? We think that's the reason. No, he's been in since then. Yeah, but he's at other clubs more frequently. He goes to Gotham.

And, of course, it's near where he lives, I think. But, yeah, there was a thing where he thought that somebody gave him the light. He got off and he said, I'll never work here again. And we're like, what? Nobody gave him the light. He got off, and he said, I'll never work here again. And we're like, what? Nobody gave you the light? So Tom Papa called him and said, well, listen, Jerry, we can settle this pretty quick. Where did the light come from?

He says, right across from the stage. And Tom's like, no, that's not where the light is. The light's in the doorway. You must have just been something in the light fixture, because sometimes there's spaces in the light. Something you saw that you thought was a light, but it wasn't. Because, of course, nobody would give Seinfeld the

light. That's just absurd. Also, if that happens, can't you just be like, someone did, like, why? Someone fucked up. No, no, no. We'll reprimand that individual. Well, yeah, somebody fucked up, but it would be the height of disrespect to get Jerry Seinfeld the light. What if Jerry said, okay, I'll come back. In fact, I'll come back often, but I

want that MC gone. You would not do that. No, I wouldn't fire him. But he would never do that. I mean, if he did do that, I might have to fire the MC. But anyway, I would do my best. But what I think is that, and he acknowledged that it didn't happen,

and I think there's something psychological that even though he knows it didn't happen, it left a bad taste with him in some way that cannot be overcome simply by knowing it wasn't true. Like somebody who, like I know people who grew up kosher, and they're not kosher. I don't believe it. They become Christians.

They will not eat shrimp because it's just like, it's fine. You can eat or you can eat bacon. They just can't. It's just, it's something in them. I think something's happened with Seinfeld that he got turned off by that. I had friends that would eat ham and matzah on Passover. Oh, well, your friends would. It makes no sense at all.

It's like that. It's something that doesn't compute, but it's in you, and it feels bad. They couldn't eat regular bread. During Passover, they wouldn't eat bread, but they're still eating ham. Like, you're already breaking the rule. No, if we want to make this podcast less Jewish, we can turn our attention to Carmen. Make it Spanish! Watch out before Carmen.

Is there anything else? So you named yourself Kruger Dunn. Right. Tell everybody why. Well, one is because the Dunning-Kruger effect is I think it's the most... There's more than one reason? There's more than one reason. The second one's quicker. It's because I got sick of anti-Semitic heckling on the road

because my real name's very Jewish. Oh, okay. Tell Dunning-Kruger and then tell us both. The Dunning-Kruger effect, I think it's the most important effect psychology in the world. It's the belief that dumb people think they're smart because they're just too stupid to understand why they're dumb.

And that smart people think they're dumb because all their peers are super smart. Like a lot of doctors think they're dumb because they're not the best doctor in the hospital. But they're still a doctor. They're still very smart. So it kind of evens everyone out. And then what we end up with is people who are charismatic lead society.

There's no big, like LeBron James walks in the room, you know he's an athlete. There's nothing like that for how smart you are when you walk in the room. You can look Jewish. That's true. That's why I wear glasses and have a big nose. This was added. People get surgery to have their nose smaller. I made it more Jewish.

I'm going to refer to that. And the second reason? Was anti-Semitic heckling. Now you actually get anti-Semitic heckling? Yeah. Well, I don't get it. It's hard to say. I don't think you're more Jewish than I am. You're more known, doing better gigs, your name's on the marquee.

When I just walk in a bar, like I did Scotland every bar show before I could even say a word. You're not from here. Well, you're not from here. Did they ask for lean brisket? I get that. I'm not a Jew and I get that that's not it from here the best thing about anti-semitism is how everyone tells you it's not happening as soon as you try and bring it up but you're not literally you know i don't know that that's necessarily anti i had i was and then you know the host comment i don't want to say my name but but I had a joke about being Jewish toward the end of the set. And he mentioned, he's like, ah, like we couldn't tell with that face and with that name.

Okay, but what if you said, I'm waspy, and he said you couldn't, as if you couldn't tell by that face. You'd be, you wouldn't be offended. Is it, is it, is it? I'm not waspy. Do I look waspy? No, but I'm saying you're only offended because you perceive looking Jewish as a negative thing. If he said, well, that guy looks so waspy. Look at those chiseled waspy features.

You wouldn't be offended. Listen, you may not be able to tell by the blur on his face. He's a perfectly handsome person, man. You know, many women have a Jewish fetish. You know, the Jewish are the better. But to be fair, it's that they interrupt the show. I don't need additional, like it's hard enough already

to hold this picture and get it out. Hold on. I would think that being in that room, I don't know if his perception is accurate or not, but if you see that the audience is more hostile to you than the nice looking Gentiles,

enough time, then you get the idea. I never felt like I was in danger. It wasn't, you know what I mean? Like in the South, I didn't feel like someone was going to stab me outside or anything. I just didn't want to deal with someone. Like I had a bit about tipping and someone would yell,

because you're Jewish, like in the middle of the bend. Then I have to like, I just don't want to deal with it. But Sam Morrell did get that thing thrown at him about it. Like there have been some comedians. It's not. Sam Morrell got a Palestine thing, I think. All right. Carmen Lynch, everybody is with it. There have been some comedians. It's not. Sam Murrow got a Palestine thing. All right. Carmen Lynch, everybody,

is with us. She wanted to comment on this. I was going to say, did anybody call you a lean brisket? I wish they had. No. Carmen Lynch is with us. She is lean.

She is tall. Vertically challenged. That's your album or your special? Vertically Obese was my album. But no, I'm doing a special. Anyway, she's here

to discuss her taping. So tell us about the taping. When, where, how, why? June 26th at the Comedy Cellar Village Underground, 8 o'clock and 10 o'clock. Please come to the 10 o'clock first. Because it's not sold out? The 8's already sold out. Well, because the 8 will sell more.

And the 10 will probably be a little more wild because I will have done one already. Okay. And it's a lot of dark jokes. Nothing from Late Night, nothing from Letterman or Conan or Colbert, any of those. These are other jokes.

Is there a theme that, is this a, Dark. It's darkness. Yeah, it's dark humor. And also, Carmen is doing a taping

in Spanish for a special in Spanish as well. Is that correct? Sí, señor. That's awesome. 15th of July in Barcelona.

Barcelona. And it's in the bar where my parents met. Oh. Wow. That's crazy. Yeah. That's sweet. 15th of July in Barcelona. In Barcelona. And it's in the bar where my parents met. Oh. Wow. That's crazy. Yeah. That's sweet.

Yeah. We had Fabrizio Capano with us just a couple of weeks ago, who is also a bilingual comic. And we discussed that because we seem to come back to this theme often on this show. In addition to Asians not getting into Harvard, one of our themes seems to be bilingual comedy. It's an interest of mine, obviously. Not one of mine. Go ahead. Not an interest of Noam's.

How will your Spanish special differ from your English special, if at all? It's about 50% overlap, I'd say. Just translated jokes from the English set? Yeah, but they come out differently. They're worded differently. They might be explained differently, just, you know, depending on.

I also, I mean, I learned Spanish until I was eight in Spain. So my English and Spanish are very different. My Spanish sometimes comes out as if I'm an eight-year-old Spanish girl. Okay. You know? And you might not have all the slang. I don't have all the slang, but apparently of all the times I've performed,

they like it. They like that I don't speak perfectly. I used to try and fix it all the time, and they were like, no, leave it. I would say the wrong word. I'd say something similar. They understood the joke, but they were like, no, don't say it.

Say your word. But sometimes the joke, but they were like, no, don't say it, say your word. But sometimes the joke really depends on precision of words, and you want them to laugh at the joke, not at your bad Spanish. Not bad, but imperfect Spanish. It's not, yeah, it's a mix. It's not that it's bad, it's that it's maybe more infantile sometimes. But that can be funny if you're saying it wrong. But there are some jokes you might really want them to laugh at the joke and not at your Spanish.

I think you're separating it too much. It's like 90% the joke and 10% the way I said a word. Now, Carmen, getting back to what Mr. Kruger said. Mr. Kruger. Mr. Dunn. Mr. Dunn. Mr. Kruger's fine. Mr. Kruger's fine. Mr. Krugman. Kruger.

Anyway, do you want special dispensation as a female comic? No. I don't feel like it was ever. I just want to get on stage. I don't need. I don't like when they're like, and our next comedian is a lady. Or she's lovely. She's a tall glass of water, isn't she?

You know? That's just bad hosting. But I mean, why not just like, just treat us like everyone else. Trying to eat healthier. It's hard, right? It's hard to eat healthy. Everything has to be like so fresh now. Organic.

No antibiotics. like so many when i can't uh sleep i go online and i just read quotes you know like um what's that one love like you've never been hurt i hate that one love like you've never been hurt fuck off what's the other one? Like nobody's watching. Eat like nobody's watching. I don't know what it is. Dance? Eat. Eat? Dance. Dance.

No, it's dance like you don't need the money. Oh, I like that one. Dance. Like you don't need the money. Okay. I thought it was eat like nobody's watching for the longest time because I eat like no one's around. I eat

like messy. I put all my foods together and I put it into a little patty and then I shove it into my mouth. It's kind of gross. One time my boyfriend walked in and he goes, you eat so disgusting. I'm like, you licked my butthole. So.

So. disgusting. I'm like, you licked my butthole. Let's say there were five male comics, male and non-binary comics, who were booked, and the booker, in good faith, felt that, let's say it was earlier in your career, felt that, you know what, these are the five best. I think Carmen's great, but if I had to pick my top five out of the 50 that are available tonight, I think these five dudes are the best five.

Okay. And someone said, no, but you need a woman. I said, okay, put Carmen on. And you found that out. Would you say, you did the right thing putting me on because I'm a woman, or would you say, fuck that, put the five on that you wanted, put me on when you think I deserve it?

I feel like it's more energy I don't need to spend. Like, it's out of my control. You're going to do what you want. Are you putting me on or not? You're not? Okay, then I'm going to go over here and go on over here. I don't need to start fighting. You're avoiding my question.

Yeah. I'm asking, what do you think is like- The right answer? Well, do you think that the booker has an obligation to say, no, no, we know that I think these top five, these are the five funniest male and non-binary comics, but can't do that, so we're going to pick Carmen on which would you feel he did the right thing or would you feel like, no,

that's belittling to me. No, I would take the spot. Of course you take the spot. My kids are going to get their affirmative action, but I mean, first of all, it's one woman out of five.

So you're, you're not even splitting it 50, 50, like you're, you're giving it to one. And I'm like, I'll take it. But I, What is fair? Is it fair to the person

who didn't get the spot? Honestly, I don't think about that person that much. It's not even that I'm trying to avoid your question. In this case, it's fair because Carmen's a killer. No, in this scenario. In this scenario, you should be booking her. If you have four male comics

and then a world-class killer, why wouldn't you choose her? You know what would be unfair is, like, if it was, like, not just a show, but, like, something important. And I felt maybe I felt like this person deserves it because, I don't know. Like, it would have to be more of a big deal than, like, a random show. But this is the issue. That's rarely the case, that it's only the men that are funny.

That's, I think, the option that we were given. But what's not rare is that if you look at the Comedy Cellar lineup, it is not 50-50, men, women. Women are what, 20% of the lineup? Yeah, I'd say about. But what percent of overall submissions is that? Because if 100 women are passed at your comedy club and 3,000 men are, then 20% is still well representative of 100.

Right. Listen, these are impossible issues. Too mathy. There's also so much more now, though. It's like, well, this person brings in tickets because they are impossible issues. Too mathy. There's also so much more now, though. It's like, well, this person brings in tickets because they are huge on. We don't do that. No, I was talking in general, not you. But yeah.

That's legitimate, too. One issue I have with my show is a lot of women that are funny are booked. For one, we went through seven different female comics. Jackie Kashian was the first one I booked because she's one of my favorite comics. She got booked at a much better theater gig on the road. And she sent a suggestion of other female comics. I went through the list of 10.

They were all working. So I was like, do I now book the 13th funniest woman that I can get? And then we ended up being able to get one, luckily. But should we have gotten in trouble if I showed him? You should have gotten Al Franken.

I hear he goes long and loves it. Slow. Now, there's another element that we've talked about this that, you know, the audience might want to hear a different point of view.

Even if the five men kill the hardest, if you put a laugh meter in the back of the room and you measure the strength of the laugh, those five men in your hypothetical are the funniest. Still, there's something to be said for a different point of view, a different way of seeing things that might be interesting to the audience. four men who are ex-police officers and a woman who is an ex-police officer versus the fifth one was a man who was a doctor and a lumberjack in his

past life, which is a more diverse point of view. It's not about point of view. There's different types of performance. High energy, low energy, one-liners, long things. There's so many different mixes of comedy. The truth is I don't think male female

is necessarily the biggest difference between comedians it is there are some although Perriell will object to this because she thinks men and women are exactly the same there are some differences between male and female comics yeah but

you can have tremendous diversity without ever having That's true, but do the females in the audience want to see that you got to consider that as well? Because they're half your audience and they might Yes, they do. They do want to see.

And the diversity of the So maybe Carmen was not a good person. It was hypothetical. You're hypothetical. You said it was early in her career. She hadn't gotten her chops yet. Yeah, that's right. That's what I said. I would just feel shame because I always feel shame.

It's just a thing where I'd be like, oh, my God, I shouldn't have gotten this. I don't deserve it. You know, I mean, I've been on a Latino show where they're like, you're from Spain. You shouldn't be on the show. And I'm like, it made me feel like kind of like, fuck you. Like it's not. But he was yelling at me. He goes, well, you're not from you're not Latina. And I'm like, I made me feel like kind of like, fuck you. Like it's not. But he was yelling at me. He goes, well, you're not from you're not Latina.

And I'm like, I didn't book myself on this. I booked me and asked me. And he's like, well, you're not you don't have dark skin. You look white. And I was like, Louis C.K. is from Mexico. You know, there are white people in Latin America as well. I don't know. Was it Mexican president white?

Huh? Wasn't Vincent? I don't know. But I mean, there's look, there's Giselle Bündchen, I think, is German of German ancestry. Wasn't the Mexican president white? Huh? Wasn't Vincent Fox white? I don't know. Look, Gisele Bundchen, I think, is of German ancestry, and she's from Brazil. So there's people. And Adolf Eichmann, of course, was Argentinian.

Well, but he was German, wasn't he? Yeah, but I'm saying his kids were German, but they were born and raised, I guess. I don't know if they were born and raised. No, Vincent Fox was darker. Wasn't there a white? There's a lot of white people in Latin America. Wasn't't know if they were born and raised. No, if Vicente Fox was darker. But wasn't there a white... There's a lot of white people in Latin America. Wasn't there a white Mexican president? Could be.

Confusing with a different one? Now I'm going to get in trouble. So what do you think of theme shows then? Well, that's, you know, theme shows are up to that. That's, I mean, I... I mean, if they told you, if they told Carmen you couldn't be on that show

because you're not Latino, that would be upsetting. Right. But again, like, is it upsetting or I'm more like, fuck you, I'll go somewhere else. Like, why do I have to make things such a big deal when there's like a million rooms? I'm not going to spend my time. Yes. With a Latino show, I guess there's an expectation, even though one can be, as we've said, a white Latino. I guess there's an expectation perhaps the audience expects a certain kind of Latino and Latina.

And it's going to talk about being Latino or Latina. I mean, to be fair, I've done Latino festivals and most of them are very accommodating and very cool. It was just one guy who was like, what are you doing here? Lopez Obrador. He looks pretty white. I'm sure he's not. Well, he's got gray hair.

Maybe when he was younger, he looked darker. Oh, maybe you're right. Listen, see, like descending into this way of looking at the world, I know people say that's your privilege, your white wall, but it's not something I care to do. And as a boss who has to make decisions,

personal decisions all the time, it's awful to have to, like, I just want to call it like I see it. But you do give some weight to what the audience might want to see somebody that's a woman, I mean, that's a factor. Do you gather feedback at all? Like customer satisfaction or they can ask for a comedian?

Yeah, from time to time. It's not that often. If we have a show that doesn't have any women on it, which Carmen, I think, will vouch, it's very seldom. Yeah. From time to time it happens. I'll get maybe one complaint and I'll write back, look, you're complaining about the show you saw, I'll get maybe one complaint and I'll write back. Look,

you're complaining about the show. You saw the show. You think you wanted to see would have been worse because the people we had available just weren't that good. What do you want from me? You know? Yeah. Yeah.

No, I mean that that's important too. There's also a lot more funny women now than there used to be. Yeah. It's way easier. That's right. That's a very good point. It's way easier.

Now there's way more funny way more COVID. Just, I don good point. It's way easier now. There's way more funny women. Way more. COVID just, I don't know what happened. They just, like, blossomed, and they're everywhere now. It wasn't always the case. No. It was always, like, you know, it was great for the women who were funny because they got more spots on average than the men. Would you have, do you have shows that are all black guys or are black people on the show?

And would you? I would, sure. We have shows that's like three or, I think even as much as three and an MC. So four out of six performers are black. I see that with some regularity. Yeah. Because black guys dominate standup comedy.

And it puts the lie to a lot of things because black guys are usually the demographic that everybody is the lie to a lot of things because black guys are usually the demographic that everybody is the quickest to assume is being discriminated against. But they get the most spots. I mean, they are like the Jews of the 50s. They're the dominant demographic in stand-up comedy. So nobody seems to discriminate against them. Is that really true? I mean...

No. No, I mean, if you look at the comics, if I were to just Google now, obviously they're only 10% of the population, so they're vastly overrepresented. 13% or 14%. They're overrepresented. More than that in New York. They're overrepresented in comedy. But do they dominate comedy?

That is to say, if you looked up the highest paid acts, that's the metric you want to use, you'll have Gaffigan, you'll have Seinfeld, you'll have Romano, you'll have... No, but I'm saying it's not that they're dominating. Kevin Hart, Chris Rock, Dave Chappelle. Sure, there's a lot, but I don't know that they're... Hannibal.

I don't know that they're dominant. I mean, I'd have to Google that. Dominating would not be the word I would use. I would use it, they're overrepresented. They're overrepresented. They're overrepresented and I think they are.

Yeah, I'm not saying they're only black males. But dominating, I think they're like... Ali Wong is huge. No, but dominating makes me think like 70% of the top comics, the top drawing comics. They don't dominate

the way, like in the NBA, all right? We're not talking NBA domination. Domination is not the word I would use. But we're talking maybe

Jews in banking domination. Well, that Jews don't dominate banking. So, you know, I mean, there's certainly, you know, investment banking, there's certainly, you know, investment banking. There's a lot, but commercial banking is not.

But theme shows aren't. I find mixed shows so much better. Like, nobody wants to be like, I hate those shows. They're like hysterical or hersterical. I'll tell you what, the comedy is a very, very big tent. I mean, if you look at corporate America, any other industry, other than like a show business generally, but comedy in particular,

the diversity, there's no, I don't think you could find this similar level of diversity anywhere else. Especially at the Cellar. Although I think that some of the other clubs are, I came around to this position, I mentioned it,

I think some of the other clubs are a little bit bro-y. I didn't know that. Well, can you name the club's name? Do you mean in New York or in the country? In New York. What do you mean by bro-y? Could you just parse that for me? I don't think it's because they prefer men to women.

Just that they may be more skeptical of female acts in some way. I've seen that for sure. Well, Zarna is what you're thinking. Yeah, what made me come around to it was Zarna who was just destroying in the cellar,

like destroying. Yeah. And I noticed she wasn't getting the number of spots that objectively she absolutely should have been getting all over town because there's no way she's destroying here. And I'd see some of the other people who were on the lineups at the other clubs. Now, maybe I don't know. Maybe she just wasn't calling into the other clubs,

whatever it is. I don't know. Something was wrong with that picture to me. Not every club goes just by killing. Rightly or wrongly, they go by who they think is funny, who they think is hip, cool, who they are friends with,

who hangs out there, who they're managing in some cool, who they are friends with, who hangs out there, who they're managing in some cases where club owners are also managers. I don't know if that still goes on. And if she's submitting. I mean, if, you know. And if she has any. I've never seen her at another club, but it doesn't mean that, you know, she's submitting. Who knows?

Bro-y may not be the right way to put it. Click-ish could be. Click-ish is good. Because so much of it is how social you are, and I'm terrible. I'm the worst network. I'm a huge dork. Found out I'm on the spectrum recently, but I didn't know starting out in comedy. I barely got up anywhere.

You're bisexual? That's a spectrum. I'm on the spectrum. We dominate. You all know the spectrum. Yes. If you guys would switch places it would be I don't

I would I know you hate your career but I would switch with you I just meant he should sit here you should sit in the middle I would not be ashamed if I were on the spectrum

I don't think I am but it's you're not on the spectrum look me in the eyes and tell me you're not on the spectrum I don't believe I am I think I'm on he can't

I didn't say I'm the paragon of mental health. Can you make eye contact? Or making eye contact, but I don't know that that is an indication of being on the spectrum. Stop it. So you were diagnosed with Asperger's or something? They don't call it that anymore.

What do they call it? A Nazi doctor, I guess. Wait, that really is not a term anymore? Because apparently Dr. Asperger was a Nazi doctor. Well, what other term is it? It's just autism spectrum disorder. It's very confusing. The only part of it, I don't like eye contact.

I've learned to like force it. It can be awkward. I have trouble reading emotion on the other person. But if you're like over the top, if you're crying, I know I should stop talking to my wife. I'm upsetting her. If you're going to hit me, I get that. But sometimes,

if you're just plain, I'll think maybe you hate me and I'll never know. It's like colorblind for emotions. A little bit, yeah. Colorblind people can see huge differences in color. Well, you're certainly

high-functioning, obviously. Not supposed to say that anymore either. They told me. I'm in the doctor's appointment. I was like, oh, is it high functioning? He's like, you can't say that anymore. I was like, I thought I can because I am it. What's wrong with high functioning? Because it implies

lower function. As opposed to everyone just being ASD, autism spectrum disorder. You're somewhere on there. So if I'm taller than Dan, that's rude to Dan. You're on the spectrum of height somewhere. No, that's different.

Don't say height. He's low. Tall function. But you say you're not supposed to say that, according to who? One doctor? The doctor. It was a panel of doctors. I mean, generally speaking. Were they Nazis? Well, if you think... I really hope not. I mean, you know, I mean, well, if you think, well, no one brought this. I mean, you know, sometimes you're not supposed to say something and you're really not supposed to say it.

Right. Sometimes one person says you're not supposed to say it. And I, you know, I would say high function. There's three tweets that say something. And there's an article. People are set. People are unhappy because three people on Twitter. Telling you the Wizard of Oz. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. This is what I think Twitter is like. Well, it's like five, six people.

They tell you you can no longer say committed suicide. And everybody's like afraid to contradict it because you see this big, you don't know it's just a little dude behind the curtain. And then it actually spreads throughout society. Nobody even knows what it was, why it was, and we all obey. We obey.

Pick a new word. And then someone gets canceled for saying something that's not even bad to say. There's very few bad things to say. First of all, there's bad intentions. You can choose

anodyne vanilla words and eviscerate somebody painfully by never saying a word you're not supposed to say. There's very few words which, except for maybe the N word, but even that, which can never be uttered in a way where the intention couldn't mean, oh, that was actually a nice thing to say. Or like people got fired for saying the N word when they were outraged at racism. And they said the word as they're fighting, you know,

an argument or making an argument, how awful racism is. Oh, you said the word you're out of here. It's insanity. Can you say insane? Probably not. It's low functioning.

It's low functioning mental something. All right. So let's play. Before we go, let's play. You're the owner. Cue the music. What's you're the owner. Cue the music, Nicole.

What's You're the Owner? Okay, it's our new game. We should do this every week. So I got an email from a customer. Okay. And then we'll go around and tell me how I should have answered it. Oh, I love this. Oh, that sounds like fun. I'll tell you how it would have been, how I did answer it.

That's what sounds like fun. This is for 7 p.m. And very on brand. Okay. Dan Natna. Okay. My husband and I have been fans

of the Comedy Cellar for many years. However, this time featured a long segment on the ineffectiveness of the COVID-19 vaccine. As a medical doctor

in training... Wait, are you talking about the podcast? My husband and I have been fans of the Comedy Cellar for many years.

However, this time featured... No, talking about the club. This time featured a long segment on the ineffectiveness of the COVID-19 vaccine. As a medical doctor in training who has spent many years

fighting the devastating effects of COVID and working towards vaccination efforts to keep our community safe, I found this distasteful and would like to ask for a refund. Periel. You actually told me what you wrote, but I kind of forgot, so I can play. Well, I mean, knowing you.

No, no. What would you answer? Oh. Get over yourself. So we're not trying to guess what you said. Okay. Oh, okay. Now I remember what you said.

What you would do as the owner, keeping in mind you're running a business. Absolutely not. That is the most absurd thing I've ever heard in my life. That's what you would write. Absolutely not. What would you write? I would say that. It's ridiculous. If I

refunded every customer that was offended by something because their life work was like, you know, investigating like Spanish grasshoppers. Oh, don't offend me. Now, I will add that I didn't write it. But one thing I wanted to say was, you know, the comedian, I know who the comedian was they're complaining about, was pretty early in the show. They stayed for the rest of the show. And then they didn't ask for a prorated refund.

I'd like one fifth. They were like, we want the whole thing refunded. Yeah, I would say that. I would. I would say that too. And it helps. Now, when you go into a situation, you have to know what it is you're trying to accomplish. What would you be trying to accomplish from a business point of view by taking that tech?

Well, first of all, I think that you'd be setting a boundary and a ground rule. I mean, that person is the entitlement and just even like is so insane. Why do you think... Now, this is a person of color, by the way. Maybe you want to rephrase that. Okay, Carmen,

your turn. Do you know if it's a person of color? Yes, I do. Okay. First of all, comedy is subjective and we all have different opinions. We're here to have fun and speak our mind. I'm sorry you feel that way, but I can't refund you. You stayed for the whole show. And yeah, I would say no, but thank you for your business. And also, he's trying to get his medical bills paid because come on,

get over it. Like a lot of people, it was a shape. A lot of people disagree with, with the COVID vaccine, but that's just where we are. Like we all know who the comedian is who disagrees with the COVID vaccine. Okay, Dan, what would you say? I would probably say, look, you had a bad time. I will refund your money because I don't want people to have a bad time at my club,

but I want you to know that I give comedians a wide berth in terms of what they can say. I don't censor them. That is our policy. You will find yourself in agreement with some of the things comedians might say and disagreement with other things. And that, I think, is the essence of what we do here at the Comedy Cell.

I have one question. How often do you get asked refunds? Because if you don't get asked for a lot of refunds... Actually, asking for a refund, very rarely. Okay, now what does the high-functioning Asperger's say? I was hoping to be the only one to say yes, but Dan stole the thunder there. I would say, yes, you can have your money back.

I'm sorry that you didn't enjoy that particular show. If you do decide to come back, please consider we don't control any of the material of our comedians. They're high-level comedians touring the world. They're not high-level. You can't say that. Oh, high-functioning. They're high-functioning comedians.

And if you choose to come back, please be warned. In the future, you might be offended again. And in that case, I would not refund. Now, is this kind of like your chat GPT impression of empathy? Or do you actually feel some empathy for this person? I feel bad for them. I mean, I wouldn't say bad. Why? Why?

Yeah, I just can't read. I have all the emotions. I just have trouble knowing what someone else is feeling if they don't make it very clear. I see. That's interesting. Like if they're crying or they contort their face or they turn red, I know they're angry, but it has to be very explicit.

Interesting that both women said no. It's just unbelievable. You sat through the entire show. You could have gotten up and left. That's over for me. Yeah, that's like eating 80% of your steak and then saying it was over. It's eating the whole steak. Forget 80%.

You eat the entire steak. I just feel like the amount of money it's going to cost you to just give. Because just the ticket price. Who won? But it's not about the money then everybody could say that yeah you sit through an entire show you watch the entire show they're not he's saying they're not that doesn't happen like who would love it and then want your money back and if they do then they're probably hurting for money and sure have your nicole you want to chime Yeah, I feel like I double down on the swim at your own risk email that you get when you get tickets to these shows.

I feel like you have to kind of like, you know, that's my, I agree with the ladies in the room. Nice, Nicole. I like that. Stay strong. You do. Now, before I read what I wrote. I know you gave them their money back.

From a business point of view, what is the smartest move? What would Karl Rove tell the politicians? I know what you would say. I would say they take free tickets for the next show first, maybe before giving their money back. That's fine, too. When we're sold out, it costs the same.

Oh, gotcha. Listen, I don't like the idea of giving the money back because I do think... Because I'm Jewish? She feels it sets a precedent. Yeah, because I feel like it sets a really dangerous precedent. I feel like you go really out of your way to make sure it is swimming in your own risk. And wait, and one other thing. And I also think if that person had gotten up and left after that comic,

that would have been a different story. Well, my feeling is, is that it doesn't happen often. If it starts to happen often, Noam can certainly change his policy. Yeah. But anyway, Noam, who won the contest? I'll read what I wrote. You cosucking liar. You high-fiving me a little bit. Can I say the C word?

No. Okay, that's what I said. Hi. I'm happy to give you a refund as I would any unhappy customer. So I guess the men already won. Nobody is more pro-vax than me. Now, let me just stop there. I know it more pro-vax than me. Now, let me just stop there. I know it's pro-vax than I,

but I find it sounds pedantic and arrogant to say than I. Wait, are you sure it's than I? Yeah. I thought it was than me. I had been yelled at for saying that. It's a predicate. It's in the predicate. Isn't it like an object pronoun?

Then I am. No one is more pro-vax than I am. Yes, but I get that. I think it's than I, but anyway. Okay, what happened to it? I'm happy to give you a refund as I would any unhappy customer, but I do want to say,

as I would any other customer. Oh, I skipped something. I got it wrong, actually. Start again. Take two. Hi, I'm happy to give you a refund as I would any unhappy customer, but I do want to say,

it's just his opinion, you know? Nobody is more pro-vax than me. Or pro-Israel, for that matter. But when comics make jokes that are skeptical of the things that I hold dear, I recognize that's America. And sometimes the jokes show how colossally uninformed

the comics are. Again, Believe me, no business is more happy to refund any unhappy customer for any reason. One time I refunded a customer because she was offended by Ryan Hamilton's making fun of hot air balloons. Ballooning was very serious to her. Please note. I believe the,

I believe I was the first business in New York to require all his customers and employees to be vaccinated. I did it before I knew the vac before I did it. to be vaccinated. I did it before I knew the vac... I did it... I'm sorry. I did it before I knew it was even legal. I despise Tucker Carlson and the rest of the vaccine deniers. I couldn't be more on your side of this issue.

But on the issue of letting people say things that I disagree with, or that even upset me, in a comedy club, not so much. I hope the other comics you saw were good. Jennifer will arrange a refund on Tuesday. No, that's what I wrote. So none of us won,

because none of us guessed political diatribe. Yeah. Well, I think that that was much better than my idea. I know, I like that answer. Yeah, that was much better than my idea. So now what's interesting is what happened here, and it happens- Every time.

Every time. Now, usually I always is what happened here, and it happens- Every time. Every time. Now, usually, I always take it from customers because I know there's no percentage in shooting back. Unhappy, they become your customer for life. They appreciate it. It's so smart just to give them. From time to time, I feel like either they got so under my skin or they were disrespectful or to give the refund is acknowledging something

that I really don't want to acknowledge. I pushed back on the customer as I did here. And I pushed back harder in the past. This was still, they always back down. They always back down. Well, they wanted to be heard.

Really? People want to be heard and she felt heard and that was enough. So she wrote back to her credit. Now, it's always to their credit that they backed down. It means that they were actually coming. I'm always impressed by that because actually they were better people

and more thoughtful people than you would have thought from the initial email. This happened with Louis, too. When I would answer these horrible emails, he'd be like, oh, I hadn't thought of that. Thank you for your response. I understand it's his opinion and that everyone is entitled to their own. I'm rarely offended by anything comics say. Just that

this time it hit too close to home. We did enjoy the rest of the evening and will continue to support the comedy. And we don't want a refund anymore or did she take the refund? I told her I was going to give her the refund. I mean, if she

actually had the amount of integrity that you're crediting her with. No, but they didn't have a good time. I'm happy to give her the refund. I mean, if she actually had the amount of integrity that you're crediting her with. No, but they didn't have a good time. I'm happy to give them a refund. She just said she had a good time. Okay, you're right. You're right. Why is it one show? No.

You don't let me finish. That kind of makes sense. Because if there's turbulence on a plane flight, you don't get me finish that kind of makes sense because if there's turbulence on a plane flight you don't get the money back even though 10% of it wasn't enjoyable if overall it was a good time I think I know what you're trying to say I don't know if that was the best analogy

is there ever anyone where you're like no I'm sorry if you eat a steak and there's a moldy spot in 5% of it and you cut around it, they don't charge you for 95% of the steak, right? Right. You get a different steak. No, really.

Finish what you were going to say. So somebody asked, you know, is there ever a time where you just say no refund? No refund for you, no. Like what would have to happen? That's a great question. Almost never. Well, nobody ever asks for the refund. I usually offer the refund.

My attitude has been for a long time now that, I've said this on a show, most products you buy, if you don't like it, you can return it. And you can't really return a show, but analytically, I don't mind considering it the same thing.

I gave them the show. They didn't like it, so I'm going to give them their money back. Now, she's right. If it gets crazy, if people hear this thing and it gets out of control, I might have to revisit that policy. Right now, I don't think most people are going to turn that against me. However, L.L. Bean used to have the same policy. Right. Return it.

Lifetime money-back guarantee. And then when the Internet really became ubiquitous, word got out to other communities besides the local main, you know, whatever you want to call those people. But they're like New England, like very upright, you know. They're not like hussies. They're called wasps is the word you're looking for. Wasps, whatever it is. So what worked, what L.L. Bean could do in that community, it could not do with the nation at large because so many people started

taking advantage of it that they had to rescind that policy. And that's sad. And maybe I'd have to rescind it. If you go to Maine, you're in Maine, there's parking lots there that just have the price list by the hour and a box with a slit in it. And it's the honor system.

You pay however long you park. They don't have an attendant. I think very few people would have the temerity to enjoy a show and then say, I didn't enjoy giving my money back. I'm sure there are people that would do that. I agree with you that even if you – I just agree that most people would not have that kind of temerity. Look, and I'll go beyond that.

Very often they'll complain about the staff or something somebody did to them. This has really gone down now. And everyone who works for me would take their staff's side. It's not true. Every time that I've done a deep dive looking into what the customer complained about, the customer was right. Every single time, not once, did I catch a customer making up details. I remember saying to someone, I was like, what is this, customer novelist?

Who could make up this level of detail in a complaint on a Google review? Like who, this is genius. And then he said this, and I said this. Yes, they might spin it, they might exaggerate to some degree. Everybody on every side of every story spins it because they don't want to take any chances with convincing the other people. But there have been times, actually, now a lot of the employees wear security cameras.

I mean, body cams. Body cams. There have been times when the complaint understated it. When I saw what actually the employee did, it was worse than what the customer described. So I'm totally on the customer's side now. And since I've taken this really hard attitude with the staff about this, we have

cut our complaints down by like 85%. Because the staff is petrified now of looking at a customer the wrong way. That's what you want. Your workers to be terrified all day. That's because you want. Your workers to be terrified all day. That's because you're filtering. And I didn't have to fire anybody. Nobody's ever been

fired about this. They're just living in fear. Well, you know what? They're paid to be polite. They shouldn't be harassing people. This is exactly, and this is the double standard that this is human. Whenever you sit at a restaurant, a waitress is a little bit,

fuck this. Why? I can't wait. But then all of a sudden, when you know the way, I can't believe the boss. Yeah, no,

no, no, that's fine. You're, you're right about that. But this, this is irking me a little bit because this customer, she's not telling you that Perry L does her own shows.

And one time she had a customer, let me know that she had a customer who couldn't figure out the zoom link. And she probably sent the right link. But the customer, whatever it is, the customer asked for the money back. And Perrielle didn't want to give the customer her money back. I said, Perrielle, give them their fucking money back. They didn't even watch the show. They tried.

She's like, it's their fault. I gave them a perfectly good Zoom link. If they couldn't figure out, you finally did because I. No, I didn't give them their money back. It wasn't perfectly. You showed them. 300 people could figure out how You finally did because I. No, I didn't give them their money back. It was a perfect. You showed them. 300 people could figure out how to use the Zoom link. They were a man.

Yeah, they're probably wrong. Yeah, it was. It was a man. I mean, maybe. That was terrible, Perry. Well, I offered them free tickets to the next show. Maybe you're right. They didn't give them their fucking money back.

They didn't even watch his show. Okay, but in this case, this person admitted to enjoying the rest of the show so wouldn't they have more integrity to write you back to that email and be like you know what you're right you're right um that did bother me i didn't like it but i'm an adult and i'm gonna be okay but i think no looking at it in utilitarian like it's not about whether it's right or wrong, which is going to make his business more money over time. And that is avoiding a hundred bad Yelp reviews. One angry person can get 30 of their friends to go leave a one-star review on

Yelp. It's not that hard. He's partially, he's right about that, but it's only partial. I believe there is such a thing as corporate culture. Corporate culture is a huge discerning influence in businesses that do well and businesses that don't. The staff knows that I take our proper behavior so seriously that I refund customers almost without question. I put my money where my mouth is. And at the point where I start slicing and dicing and rationalizing, in my opinion, well, we're going to refund this one, not refund that one.

It looks like I'm worried about the money. And I don't want that to filter down to the staff. I want the staff to see that from the top, all we care about, the only thing, there are no competing concerns. All we care about is that people are happy, and we don't hold it against them why they weren't happy. We're not saying it's our fault.

We just want people to be happy. You weren't happy. This is my place and my name on it. You weren't happy. I don't need your money. That's the way it is. I don't want money from anybody who feels that I'm keeping it against their will. They don't need to be right. I don't want it. I can afford

it. I don't want it. That's how I feel about it. Okay, well, I think that's a good place to wrap things up if that's okay. Can I just say I'm a big fan of Nicole before we go? Excellent it. Okay. Well, I think that's a good place to wrap things up, if that's okay. Can I just say I'm a big fan of Nicole before we go? You did an excellent job. Just very quickly, did you come to New York to do this show? I did, yeah.

Oh, wow. You flew from L.A. here? Yeah. I mean, I have family here, and my dad lives in Connecticut, so it's nice to see them. Was your dad happy to see you? Yeah. Could you tell? I did tell him I was going on Alan Dershowitz's podcast, though.

Oh, you did? He had not heard of the Comedy Cellar Village. Well, we thank Kruger Dunn. We'll find out his real name after the show. It's probably like Garfinkel or something, because he said it was very Jewish. So I'm guessing Horowitz or Garfinkel. I could be wrong.

I was saying Iceberg or Goldberg or something. Iceberg. We thank Carmel Edge. Carmel, just briefly again, tell us about your, you know, when they can, when, where your taping is happening. June 26th, Comedy Cellar Village Underground, 8 o'clock and 10 o'clock. Get your tickets now at Carmen Comedian. It's the link in my bio.

But before you come to the 10 o'clock show. Yes. If you have a choice. Did you ever have the temptation of Carmen, Carmen, Carmen, Carmen, Carmen Comedian? That's how I picked it. Everybody says that, but I thought it too. It was like Karma Chameleon, Carmen Comedian. Oh, I didn't even think ofian. That's how I picked it. I was like, Karma, everybody says that, but I thought it too. It was like, Karma, Chameleon,

Karma, Comedian. Oh, I didn't even think of that. That's great. Even when I said, Karma, Karma, Karma, Karma, Then I got it, but I didn't get it when she said it.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Perel Ashenbrand, our producer, bringing her unique style to the show as she always does. And, of course, Nicole Lyons

making it all happen behind the scenes. Thank you, everybody. We'll see you next time. Bye-bye.