The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Live from the Table: Knock-down Drag-out Debate on Congestion Pricing with Expert Kathryn Wylde

Episode Date: March 6, 2025

Noam Dworman, Dan Naturman and Periel Aschenbrand are joined by Kathryn Wylde is President and CEO of the Partnership for New York City, a nonprofit organization whose members are global business leaders and the city’s major employers. The Partnership is the primary liaison between business and local government, providing private sector expertise and resources to public agencies and programs. Areas of focus include education, transportation, infrastructure, public safety, and economic opportunity.   Prior to taking over as Partnership CEO in 2000, Wylde led the Partnership’s city-wide affordable housing, neighborhood revitalization, and business investment programs. She is an urban policy expert and a frequent spokesperson for the New York business community.

This is Live from the Table, the official podcast of the world-famous Comedy Cellar, available wherever you get your podcasts, available on YouTube, and available on demand on Sirius Satellite Radio. This is Dan Natterman, Comedy Cellar comedian. I'm here with Noam Dorman, owner of the Comedy Cellar, the ever-expanding Comedy Cellar, here with Perrie Lashenbrand. Hello. Before I introduce our guest, I would just like to say that we often discuss Israel

and Ukraine on this podcast. And people often ask me, Dan, this is the Comedy Cellar podcast. Do you ever actually discuss congestion pricing? And yes, we do. We have today with us Catherine Wilde, president and CEO of the Partnership for New York City, a nonprofit organization whose members are global business leaders and the city's major employers. The partnership is the primary liaison between business and local government, providing private sector expertise and resources to public agencies and programs. Please welcome Catherine Wild to our podcast. Hi. Hi.

And Noam, I should warn you that Noam is a ferocious opponent of congestion pricing. Don't take anything personally. I've been saying to people lately that October 7th bothers me, but congestion pricing really gets under it. I mean, so, and, you know, as we're always, like, staggering when we have our guests on i i understand that maybe i mean i don't know what's going to happen with the legal challenge but i i understand that maybe the ship has sailed on congestion pricing and i will have to admit that although i feel i've never been more right about anything in my life um it's tough to get anybody to agree with me on this issue, but I saw you variously online and you seem like a very bright and not some beatnik hippie that hates cars or something like that. So I said, well,

this is the kind of woman that I like to speak to, to find out where I'm going wrong on congestion pricing. So welcome to the show. Thank you. And before we get to that, Dan did it very quickly, but you have a very impressive resume and a life of accomplishment. So just tell everybody what the various things you've done in your time. Well, the partnership was started after the city's fiscal crisis at the end of the 1970s, And I went to work there in 1981. Ford to New York, what was it?

Drop dead. Drop dead. Ford to New York, drop dead. And we feel a little bit about that same way today. Trump to New York, we're not sure, but hopefully it's not drop dead. Only drop dead congestion pricing. So I have been there. We first worked on rebuilding affordable housing in the neighborhoods of the city that had burned down during the 1970s and 80s. And then we have worked on a series of efforts

to bring on the new economy, the innovation economy, helping build Silicon Alley in New York City. You were against throwing Amazon out of... We were very much for Amazon bringing its HQ2 headquarters here to Long Island City. We were disappointed when they left. But today, you can't beat New York. Today, Amazon is probably the largest private sector employer in New York. So they grew here despite themselves.

AOC must be really bothered by that. What presence do they have here, if not their headquarters? Well, they have huge operations. Their AWS activities are here. That's their web servers and stuff. And obviously we are the largest market in the country, and so their whole marketing system, e-commerce system, deliveries, et cetera, are here. So they've got a lot of people.

They're a very important contributor to the city. They also have a store in Soho, right? Well, they do have stores and local drop-off spots, but they're very important employers. But it was terrible that the headquarters, it wasn't going to be the only headquarters, but one of their... It was a very important signal to bring one of the West Coast big tech companies to have their headquarters come back to New York, or come to New York. And so we were disappointed to lose it. But as I say, things work out for the best. This is, and we'll get to congestion pricing. This is always something, a problem with the, it's human nature, but I think it's the liberal mind,

but it's human nature in general, which is that the future is going to happen somewhere. And if it doesn't happen here, it's going to happen somewhere else. And boy, when you wake up and find, I used to feel this way about when they stopped the space program. It's like, yeah, you think you don't need it. Wait till China lands on Mars. And you say to yourself, oh, that used to be America that did that. Wait till, you know, Raleigh, somewhere in the South becomes the

major hub for Amazon. It used to be, there was no place that would have been but New York City. And that is how things change because nothing stays the same. So I just thought it was colossally stupid to not want to always have the most important new industries in New York if you can have them, which is, I couldn't understand. You probably agree. Totally agree. But in fact, as I say, it has worked out because we now have, we're second only to Silicon Valley in California in terms of the number of startups. And we're in fact growing, we're outpacing them in terms of growth by far. So we are an international capital of innovation that's happened in the last 20 years. Thank you, Michael

Bloomberg, for kicking this all off and insisting that we had to build an entrepreneurial bottoms up economy, not just our corporate top-down economy. But you know, if what you're saying is that we, despite ourselves, it kind of worked out, even though it's not quite the same as, as being centered in New York, there's a certain cachet to, you know, having, this is like, we want to be a headquarter city. I don't know if you know, uh, open AI just moved 400 people into the puck building and, uh, there is an old building. Is it not? It is an old building. So it's brand new high tech company in an old building. That seems a bit odd.

Odd? Well, you know, you think they want the most splashiest, newest high tech building that they could be. Well, it's it's in a neighborhood that is full of young tech people. And I think that might have something to do with it. Yeah. Anyway, so. We succeeded to spite ourselves, but our luck could run out. think that might have something to do with it. Yeah. Anyway, so, um, maybe we succeeded despite ourselves, but our luck could run out, you know,

it doesn't have to be. And hopefully, um, yeah, maybe Bloomberg understood this. Okay. Congestion pricing. So let me start from the beginning. Why I think it's all. And by the way, I make a very good living. I live in the suburbs. I drive to work every day. It has been awesome. Thank you very much. So, you know, we argue about Israel a lot on the show. So what I often say is that as opposed to like Israel, where I'm very connected and emotional about it, and viscerally, you know, these are my people in Israel, my parents. So I would have to understand that I have an emotional stake in that issue that could cloud my judgment.

I have no emotional stake in this congestion pricing whatsoever. On the contrary, if they do outlaw it or, you know, revoke it, and then I start having longer commutes again, I am going to miss these longer commutes. I'm not, you know, however. So what do you object to? Yeah, I'm going to miss these longer commutes. I'm not, you know, however. So what do you object to? Yeah, I'm going to say, so number one. Well, you'd have an emotional stake in wanting to be right. At this point, you've invested so much energy into lambasting congestion. You are so correct.

The people, they're sneaking around saying, I'm embarrassed that I opposed congestion pricing and it's working. Because everybody said, you know, people are anti-taxes. The reason you oppose congestion pricing, everybody opposes congestion pricing. It's another toll, another tax. The city's already a form. Let me tell you what. But, but in fact, this is one of those taxes where you get something for it. You're paying to move faster, to save time. I mean, what's the most important thing in your life? Isn't it your time? Okay, first.

I mean, isn't it your time? It's my money. Spend it. No, so first of all, the theory of congestion pricing, as I understand it, is to price the poor people and working class people off the roads so that we who can afford it, as you say, who value our time, can get to work faster. Bottom line. And that out of the gate repulses me. Now, that's correct, right? This wouldn't work if we could not use the

fact that people can't afford this anymore what percentage of poor people do you think are driving into Manhattan and paying for parking $50 a day what percentage of the people commuting to Manhattan

the commuters every day, what percentage do you think are not depending on public transit, our subways, our buses, who are sitting in traffic on buses? Hold on. I will answer any, I'm not going to duck any questions. You'll see. But just as a... I thought you were the one asking me questions. No, you're asking me questions. You said what percentage, but as a threshold matter, I am correct. I'm telling you it's over said what percentage. But as a threshold matter, I am correct. I'm telling you, it's over 90%. Okay, but as a threshold matter, there is a principle here that all the benefits are going to come at the expense of the people who we're going to price off the roads. No, no, the benefits, all the capital raised by these tolls is going into improving our subway and bus and commuter rail system.

I'm talking about the benefit of less congestion. And that's where the working people are. No, you said time is the most important thing. We're going to save time. And buses will move faster. They will save time. Okay, well, let's just stick to one thing at a time. Am I wrong that the heart of the matter here is to price certain people off the roads.

It is to give people options. Okay, but obviously we couldn't, nobody would have expected congestion pricing. Congestion pricing only was believed that it was going to work because we calculated that a certain number of people will be priced off the roads. Otherwise, the the traffic doesn't clear up well first of all

a large part of the revenues are coming from trucks so it's delivery vehicles why are why is traffic moving more quickly why is traffic because we've taken three million cars off the road and why did they go voluntarily they went off because they couldn't afford it. Yes, absolutely voluntarily. Absolutely voluntarily. If they can afford to drive into Manhattan and pay $50 to park. First of all, that's a myth.

They're not paying $50 to park. They're not? No. Okay. Where do you park? Okay. I have, this is the thing. You have a parking placard like the government employees?

Hold on. With all due respect, I know a lot of people. And Tiana, actually, our engineer told me this too. So this is a story, give me an example in my own life. Well, I have a woman who works for me. These are just vignettes. Who's 79 years old. She lives in the Bronx.

She has to take a bus from her apartment to the closest subway station. She drives into the city at night. I mean, she has no choice. I have to give her, obviously, a raise for her to be able to afford it. She can't afford another couple thousand dollars a year in after-tax money. My wife— Where does she park? She parks in—well, she, she was parking in,

on the street. You can just park on the street in the village. I, I met, I have another musician, an employee musician. Not for long. Has to lug,

has to lug his big keyboard to work every night. It's not, not convenient to walk to the subway. He lives not near a subway. He drives in. He parks on the street. Everybody I know who drives, parks on the street.

Um, my wife used to work in the hospital. She was on the street. Everybody I know who drives parks on the street. My wife used to work in the hospital. She was a single mom. She dropped her kid off at school, go to work at the hospital. The hospital has parking for the nurses and techs and all that stuff, or they

provide them something. Which they pay for. Whatever it is, it's part of their... The nurses pay for parking. Maybe they do. I don't know. Maybe they pay for it, maybe they don't. But this was her day. So she'd go and park. Then she would go to pick up her son at after school or daycare.

Then she'd go do some shopping. She lived in Staten Island. There's no subways anywhere near. I can tell you these stories all day long, people who work for me. And the principle is to get these people off the roads. Now, I'll tell you that, obviously, driving a car with the insurance and the cost of the car and parking and tolls is already quite expensive. So if it was something that was not very important for these people to already have been doing, they would have stopped already. That's a fallacy.

That is a fallacy. It is a function of habit. And it's a function of, in some cases, not having a good enough public transit system so they feel safe, comfortable, and reliable. Did we provide them with that? And the reason for raising the toll is to pay for a transportation system that is more adequate.

What year do you project that transit system will come online? It's constantly coming online. Right now they're buying new. When do you think the people I know who live – can you bring up that slide of the transportation deserts? Let's bring this one to New York Times. When do you think the people who live in the Bronx, elderly people, all sorts of people, can you make it big? We'll have a clean, safe subway two or three blocks from their house. This is from the New York Times.

Well, many do right now. These are the areas in New York, the pink areas, 15 minutes or more, and some of them are quite a bit more, from a subway station. Now, all these people drive. What are they supposed to do now? Staten Island has a good case to make. And Breezy Point. Queens, Brooklyn, look at the map, all over the place. No, no, no, those are not transit deserts.

Well, this is according to the New York Times. Those are where you don't have close proximity to a subway, but they all have buses. But if time is so valuable, you've got to take a bus to the subway, to this, and then from wherever you land, you could end up paying much more

time. And we do need to improve our transit system, which is why we're raising money. How long will it take to have that? Just to give you an example. Why can't you answer me? When, if somebody lives in Staten Island or any of these transports, when- Why don't you have me on if you're the expert?

I'm asking, I'm not, if I had, if I was the expert, I'd tell you how long it would be. I'm asking you to tell me, will it be 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, when? It's happening every day. And every day that we're not raising funds and supporting the MTA, we're setting ourselves backwards, which we did for a number of years. And I don't know when you started riding the subway, but I started in the 1960s and it wasn't very pleasant. It's gotten a lot better since then, but that's because we've invested.

And we've invested 44% of the revenues for the transit system come from taxes on business and real estate. 27% comes from the fares that people pay, which now go up on a regular basis every few years. And those are the low-income working people that really needs our support. And finally, only 13%, prior to congestion pricing, only 13% was coming from the tolls from people who are upper income. They earn well over what any of the average subway riders make, the upper income people that were driving in and not paying their fair share.

This slightly raises the portion of the subway costs and the transit costs, the commuter rail costs, slightly raises the tolls for what they pay. It is, in fact, a reasonable approach to trying to make the city better for everyone. Okay, so let me ask you a few other questions. I'm not going to get any answers. So can you bring up the slide which says Saturday, Jersey, Sunday, Jersey? I'm going to ask you, kind of go to a different question now.

So I have questions about the policy even within its own concept. Tiana, bring up the Saturday, Jersey. Tell me, because it seems very ill-conceived, even when it's not. Can you make that bigger? So this is Saturday afternoon from Jersey. This is the most marked changes, actually, So this is Saturday afternoon from Jersey and people who were, this is the most marked changes actually you can see on the congestion price

tracking, the Holland Tunnel. Saturday, it really peaks in the mid-afternoon. A huge drop in traffic. People coming from Jersey to visit obviously Manhattan. I'm going to presume to go to restaurants and shops and whatever it is. Why? This is not part of our congestion problem. Why are we taxing people off the roads on weekends when it's coming right out of the

height of businesses? Since congestion pricing went into effect, Broadway attendance has gone up 21%. No, it hasn't. I have the stats. That's not true. It's 21% higher than it was in January and February last year. Okay, first answer to this, I have those stats and I have them

year over year. And I'll bring them up for you and I'll show you that that's absolutely not true. You can. And what about restaurants? Restaurants are up, reservations are up 7%. Okay, I'm looking at weekends here. Do you agree with me that this is a picture of people staying home Saturday and Sunday is the same,

Saturday and Sunday afternoons that would have come into Manhattan. They're not taking public transportation to get into Manhattan at 4 p.m. They're staying home. Since the pandemic, there has been a big drop-off in suburban commuters coming into the city's museums, art shows, Broadway, et cetera.

No, no, I'm just saying. I'm just trying to get you to answer. I'm not asking you trick questions. I'm asking you a very direct question here about the thing. Answer me. Is this a picture of people staying home from Jersey that would have come to Manhattan businesses or not? I can't see. Well, we'd have to look at the

restaurant and we'd have to ask the business people if they've seen a drop off. Dan, Dan, prima facie, when you see a huge drop in traffic on Saturday and Sunday afternoon from all the Jersey crossings, you think that could be good for business?

Assuming that that's not being substituted with... You're so argumentative sometimes. No, no, no. I'm just saying. Yeah. As long as... If, in fact, they're not coming in via public transportation... We know they're not. Okay, now you can bring...

But they are. Public transportation is up. Okay, can you bring... The number of cars coming in is down. It's still way below pre-COVID. Public transportation is up. Yes, but it's not up. It's up a little bit.

If you think that people who live in Jersey, where there's no subways in Jersey, are going through that arduous trip of getting on a bus to a train to Grand Central, Penn Station, wherever it is, and finally they're making their way to Soho with their families when normally they would just drive right in and have brunch somewhere. This is fantasy. Fine to say, fine to say, I still think it's worth doing.

Who are the patrons that have sent it up? Can you bring up Broadway PNG? The numbers are higher. What's higher? The numbers of patrons of the restaurants are higher. No, they're not. Seven percent higher than last year. Okay, first of all, that, first of all, this is, okay, so this is very trick.

This is the Broadway season. Okay, first of all, that, first of all, this is, okay, so this is very tricky. This is the Broadway season. Now, I have the... Where's this data from? This is from the, Broadway puts out its stats all the time. This is where the MTA took its data from. So the top one, so what happens is,

24 over 25, you can see it, is up significantly. It was up significantly from the year before. However, the pattern is totally different. So what you're seeing is that after January, I labeled it wrong. The top one is 24, 25, bottom one is 23, 24.

After January 5th, you'll see the slope go way down, whereas the year before, the reason one goes longer than the other is because we have... I don't know the sources of the charts, but I have spoken to the head of the Schubert Theaters, who has confirmed to me that in fact, their attendance is

up. It was up, I think, 17% in January, and when you add... It was up, I think, he said 17% in January and when you add... It was way up in November, in September, October, November, December. No, this is over last January. Yes, it was way up for the entire year over the year

before. The point is, the theater owners are satisfied. So what are you complaining about? Well, you brought up the theaters. No, I said they are satisfied that this is... So these are the stats. ...that congestion pricing has not had a negative impact. These are the stats.

I'm not saying it has had a negative impact or not. Well, what are you saying? Because Broadway theaters are very expensive things. I don't think Broadway theaters are the most price-sensitive things. But can we go back to your original point? Let me read the stats into the record. ...was that you agree that congestion pricing is working? Hold on.

I don't think this is useful. December of 2023, the average theater attendance was 220,000 per week. For December 24, December, this is before congestion pricing, it was 308,000. It was 50% more. February of 2024, over it was 202 000 averaged and february of 2025 now was 245 000 a 20 increase in other words theater going has been up year over year right but it's it was up it was up by 50% prior to congestion pricing,

and then the increase went down to only 20% year over year after congestion pricing. No, no, you're talking about a pandemic phenomenon where it was dropped off. There's no pandemic. No, no, it had dropped off to very low and getting people back into the pattern of entering Broadway. And we had a couple not very great seasons of plays and musicals,

if you will recall. I'm going to send you. I have these stats exactly where the MTA got them. And I'm going to tell you. I have talked directly to the Broadway people. So believe me, I talk every day to people about what's going on. I check with the restaurant associations. Oh, the restaurants.

If you talk to the restaurant associations, they tell you businesses are up there, then that's just bull. That I can tell you. I'm a restaurant person.. If you talk to the restaurant associations and they tell you the business is up, then that's just bull. That I can tell you. I'm a restaurant person. You want to speak to me? It's not good for business. What would you attribute,

assuming that you're correct and that restaurant attendance is up and Broadway attendance is up, do you attribute that to more people coming into the city or a different mix of people coming? I mean, if this improves business, maybe we should charge $30. There are, yes. In part, I attribute that to the atmosphere in the city being better

since we've got less congestion, less traffic. More people are out walking, more people on the streets. The pedestrian foot traffic in all the business improvement districts is up substantially since congestion pricing. Cab rides are up 10% since congestion pricing. So people are actually moving around the city in ways that are more efficient. More people are on the subways. More people are on commuter rail.

And the question I have is, you know, what is wrong with that picture? Now, there are people who have been inconvenienced, but the MTA put in place, you can go on their website, and if you're disabled, you can get exemptions. If you are low income, you can get exemptions. No, you don't get exemptions if you're low income. You get after 10 trips. You get 25% off.

Yes. That's not an exemption. You get a discount. 25%. You get an exemption for disability. 25% discount if you go five days a week. And emergency vehicles, they've shown that are moving faster.

Buses are moving faster. Don't bang on it. So there's lots of advantages. When we first looked at congestion pricing and the way the business community got behind this was 20 years ago when Stockholm put it in place. We took a look at what happened. And when we looked at and then we did an analysis. Ma'am, I'm sorry. When you bang the table, it's coming.

It's okay. Sorry. Go ahead. You inspire me to bang the table. I'm sorry. He's really just, that's just his way. Don't take it personally. He likes to argue.

So we did a study starting back in 2007 to look excess fuel costs, et cetera, in the region. So the revenues from congestion pricing are about $500 million a year. That is so far much less than the $20 billion a year it was costing us excess traffic congestion. So just the numbers make a compelling case, particularly for businesses. But if you don't care about the impact on working people who have set up their lives in places where it's not convenient to take the subway. But she did say that they're already taking steps to ameliorate that. And I asked, when will that ever, when do they expect that to go online? It is coming online.

The governor announced in terms of Rockland County, I don't know where in the suburbs you live, but in terms of Rockland, she announced improvements. Metro North is now going to come into Penn Station within the next five years, and so you're going to have the options of both. But I also have to get a subway. I also need a Metro North station near my house. Well, you can park and drive.

You can drive there and park. No, I don't know. My town doesn't have a Metro North station. We don't get any parking permits. Well, some town up there does. Some towns do. Some towns don't. But it can't be too far.

But the people who moved to my town. It's closer than driving to the village. The people who moved to my town understood, well, I'm going to move to a town that doesn't have a train station. I'm going to drive. And now they're going to raise it to $20 extra to drive in. And they say, well, it's for your own good. But if you drove to the nearest train station,

which is what I did many, many years ago. And that's not saving time. That's for sure. It's not going to save. If I had to drive to the station, even if I get parking, hopefully find the station right at the right hour. Arrive at Grand Central Station. Get out. Get a taxi or a subway.

Way longer than driving in. Do you ride a bike? Ma'am, I'm 62 years old. I'm not riding a bike to work in the wintertime. Come on now. No, no. Do you ride a bike? No, I'm not saying you ride a bike to work.

I just asked if you ride a bike. I was trying to find another reason you would like congestion pricing. Well, I'm 55, and I use the Electric City by quite a fair amount. And have you noticed it's safer that we're down? No, because it's winter, so I haven't used it lately. And part of the reason it bothers me so much

when I watch an MTA board meeting is because they're so dishonest. They say that restaurants are up, but actually, if you look at the open table stats, restaurants were up for the entire year. And they're even more up in Boston. There's no spike in restaurants

as of January 5th in the congestion district. I have it here. Restaurants were up 9% in December. They were up 5% in October. They were up 7% in January. They were up 3% in February. This is, there's no, and then the other thing they talk about

how they have credit card transactions have gone up 5% in the congestion district. But they don't tell us what credit cards, A, how they went up in the non-congestion district. And by the way, 5% is about the inflation rate. They don't control it for inflation. Restaurant reservations as of today are up 7% according to OpenTable. But that's citywide. That's not in the congestion.

No, no, no. That is in the CBD. No, it, no. That is in the CBD. No, it's not. It's New York City. And even if it were in the CBD, you'd have to also then tell me what is up in the non-CBD. I'm approaching this in a very objective

social science type way. Not really. You have to control for things when you do statistics. To say that, are you going to tell me, you're a smart woman, that restaurants are up 7% so therefore it was congestion pricing as if restaurants never go up otherwise. No, that's not exactly what I'm saying is

that the damage that people feared has not happened. I'm not crediting congestion pricing. You can't isolate congestion pricing from other factors. First of all, you know, so I don't know what the damage will be for open table type restaurants. But obviously, we know that the way economics works is that people also substitute. So if it costs you more to get in someplace, you may order something less expensive.

I mean, when you start drilling down, you have to know, as I said, how are the restaurants doing in the non-congestion. There's so much to know about rather than just kind of. But you're ignoring what I said before about the cost of excess traffic congestion and what that costs. My reservation, especially our overflow, is down in the last couple months. Now, if I told you that's because of congestion pricing, you'd say, you don't know that's because of congestion pricing. And you'd be right. If your car breaks down, you're going to take it

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products which are not approved or verified for safety or effectiveness by the FDA. Prescriptions require an online consultation with a healthcare provider who will determine if appropriate. Restrictions apply. See website for details and important safety information. Subscription required. Price varies based on product and subscription plan. Okay, so you're conceding that we really don't know right now. I'm only answering their claim, and then they claim that credit card transactions are up, but they don't ever tell us what's due to inflation. Costs are through the roof. I mean, the tendentious nature of the way they're presenting statistics is embarrassing. Here's a point of agreement, which has really nothing to do directly with congestion pricing.

But New York City has, in the last decade, become the third most expensive city in the world. And the ones ahead of us this is gonna make it more the ones ahead of us I'm saying this is where we have a point of agreement the ones ahead of us are Singapore number one Zurich number two and we're tied with Geneva for number three and obviously the increased costs of the city are a huge crisis. And more than 10 years ago, we were in double-digit numbers. We were not near the top of most expensive cities.

So that is a very scary thing that we have to pay a lot of attention to. And certainly, I'm sympathetic to the argument that adding tolls, adding taxes. The problem is the choice was not adding a toll or not. The choice was adding a toll on cars and people who drive in, who earn more than the average subway rider, or raising fares more, or adding yet another tax. Why? How do we survive all this time? Because the only way to make up, to provide people with the transit they expect, with a reliable, safe transit system.

Remember, we're living off the cars and the equipment and the investments that were made in the 1980s when Dick Ravitch was fixing the system. So to provide, to continue to finance that is not free. How do they do it in other- This is not a choice of congestion pricing or nothing. How do cities all over the country do this? New York City is the richest city in the country. We can't manage to do what we did 50 years ago?

On what terms do you say New York City, it's the largest economy, but to say it's the richest city in the country? I don't know. We have more than a 21% poverty rate, people living below the federal poverty level. We have far more homeless people. Yes, exactly.

We are not the richest city. We are the home of the wealthiest people in the world and the wealthiest industries and banking. And for years, when New York was just- We are a great commercial center. When New York was more of a manufacturing city, we managed to build subways. We managed to do this stuff.

Now, Tiana, can you bring up that subway video I did? You have that? This is other. So the people- Oh, you haven't talked about what we're losing in fare evasion, and why don't we make that up more? You forgot that one. Well, of course.

That's a good one. That's a good one. $700 million a year and lost revenues from fare evasion. Before you play, just bring it to me. So listen. So now a lot of my employees, I want to talk about it. A lot of my employees take the subway. We had four employees horribly assaulted in the last, what is it, Perry?

Like seven months? One slashed, one stitches. Subways are not what these- People having urine thrown on their heads. Yes. Yeah. Now, again, the people who we are pricing off the roads, we want them to take the subways. Now, I would never take a subway.

I'm sure you're not going to take the subway. I take the subway all the time. But you're not going to take it at night. You're not going to take it when my employees have to take it. You're not going to take it in a bad- Of course I would never take a subway I'm sure you're not going to take the subway I take the subway all the time but you're not going to take it at night you're not going to take it when my employees have to take it you're not going to take it in a bad neighborhood you're not going to take it if you live in a bad neighborhood in Brooklyn or a bad neighborhood in Brooklyn this is what gets me

don't you understand your life is completely different than the people I'm referring to and we have to make them safer why don't we make them safer first we are have you read about the investment in the We are. I went on Twitter. Have you read about the investment in the subway's safety? I went on Twitter and I download just like random subway videos.

Go ahead. Play that. It's like a minute long. There's a never-ending supply of these. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it.

Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. I think we... Watch. Watch. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Watch, watch. This is... Where was that last one?

That was not in New York. This is New York subway. The last one... Yeah, it was not. ...looked unfamiliar. That was not a New York subway car. Oh, well, I mean, maybe I misread it. If it's not a New York subway car, it could have been.

I mean, we all have seen this. I've seen this. The idea that we are... This is where they found a dead body. They found a dead body on the subway recently. We now have cameras in the trains. We have cops walking the trains. We've got a big investment. The notion that I...

That's enough, Tiana. The notion that I... Okay, that's enough, Tiana. The notion that we... Okay, actually, let him play some more. We get the point, but okay. Well, I mean, you can just cut the sound, Tiana. The notion that... Look at this. That we all know that any of us with means

are not letting our wives or our daughters or our old people get on these subway rides. We go out and take a ride in midtown at a particular hour when a lot of people's suits are on. We're traveling between well-to-do jobs. But my employee lives in the- Spoken like a resident of the rich suburbs. Yes.

We do, in fact, take subways. Those of us who live in New York City, I live in Brooklyn. I take subways day and night. Well, you wouldn't if it was dangerous like that. I do. Why would you? I always have. Why?

Why not? Because it's dangerous. What about the notion that, of course, these are some horrific videos, but what about the notion that driving a car also carries dangers? Oh, come on. Absolutely. That's just ridiculous.

Well, we, well, they do. And if I were living in the suburbs, I would be probably more comfortable with my daughter taking the subway than taking a car into the city. That's certainly,

that's not as asinine thing I've ever heard in my life. All right. Um, uh, uh, John McWhorter, who I'm a big fan of, and he writes, you know, he writes. Oh, you're saying that car accidents don't, I mean, there are dangers. I'm saying that the threat of crime, senseless violence, what Val went through, what Chad went through, the people we know who've gone through, who work for us are

not comparable in how they affect us psychologically and traumatize us to the fact that, yeah, you could get in a car accident. Everybody can get in a car accident. We can do about that. The governor has made some important legislative proposals along with the DAs. You know they're not going to change anything. Come on. We've lived in this city

our whole lives. They don't change anything. We're working very hard on getting some of the things changed. They've been saying this my entire life. I've been hearing these same things. The only time, we're working hard. If I were the governor, I would have first cleaned up the subway and then tried to get people to. Which they have invested heavily in doing.

Okay. A year from now, let's do this again. I'm going to bet you nothing's going to change. John McWhorter says, he's very in favor of congestion pricing. He writes, but if you need a car, if you need a car as I do,

then none of that holds a candle to the hassle of driving Manhattan. Unless you have the option of doing your motoring at 2 in the morning, it's tedious and frustrating misery. He says, congestion pricing, you're not going to wrench it from my cold, dead hands. I'm like, oh, John, yes, you need a car.

I'm sure you do, probably for the reason I described. And you're going to get your convenience because other people who need a car can't afford the toll. So they're going to make way for John McWhorter. You don't know. The poor make way for the rich.

That's just not true. Not only is it true, it's axiomatic with the whole theory of congestion pricing. People are making choices. The legitimate point is that we have to have a transit system that accommodates reasonable choices. Why is it all night? But it's a catch-22 because to have that transit system, we have to raise the funds to build it out.

Why not just tax rich people more? Why not just tax rich people more? Well, we've done that. That was the first recourse. We've done that for the last 15 years. But why take it out on the poor? Tax rich people more. Well, we've done that. That was the first recourse. We've done that for the last But why take it out on the poor? Tax rich people more. We're not taking it out on the poor. The poor are on the subways. Look at the demographics.

The poor are taking mass transit and not getting the reliable services they deserve if we don't invest. Tiana, what was the story you told me about your friend? Or your sister? Can you hear me? Yeah, she's a...

No, I have a friend who's single, four children, and commutes all over Staten Island and across Manhattan to work and bring her kids to school. So she's living off of credit cards, and now it's kind of a little bit deeper. So the decisions have been made to move kids to different schools that she didn't want them to be in. Staten Island definitely has a case to make. I cannot disagree with that.

We've got to pay a lot more attention to the mass transit system on Staten Island. You see these videos by people of color popping up on the internet all the time. There's two files there that don't have, I didn't name them. They're just like garbage characters, you know, like 2D. Can you play them, the videos? And as you get that set up, other questions I want to know is, why is it all night? Why doesn't it stop at nine o'clock?

Why, why, why? It goes way down. It's 275. But why, why isn't it zero? Like why are they still charging people to get to where there's no congestion? Why does it go all the way down to lower Manhattan where there is no congestion? Why don't they just box off Midtown? Oh, I work in lower Manhattan by Bowling Green.

It's got the worst congestion in the city. We have the oldest streets, the narrowest streets, and the worst congestion. Down by Wall Street. Okay, but the area between Wall Street and, you know, Times Square is not congested. It's not more congested than the Upper West Side. Anyway, just play it, please. And again, you can find these. Play this TikTok video.

Go ahead. These are the people who John McWhorter wants to price hold. People specifically ask for safer subways. What does New York City do? Okay, we're just going to have people pay a toll to... Yeah, just turn it up. I shouldn't say John. These are people that people...

Is she making a point that you haven't already made? One second. You need to put the headphones. Okay. No, you should listen. Put the headphones. You don't even want to listen? Well, I think, Noam, you probably already made her points,

but if you make... Dan, what is the matter with you? I'm not allowed to talk? When I talk, I get followed at. Whatever points you make, I never get that tone with you. You can talk, but what you're doing is trying to hold my fire. As opposed to when you go, I make a point that you don't like. You're not making a point.

You make a fucking snoring noise. You're not making a point. You're trying to prevent me. I'm saying she doesn't want to listen. Whatever this young lady is saying on the TikTok video might be something you've already addressed. If not, perhaps she'll listen. I don't think that's so outrageous that it deserves that level of a reaction. Can you play it, Tiana?

These are the people. You know, the Trump administration has put out this TikTok videos. This is before the Trump administration. No, no, no. This came out. They've put out a video of the people complaining about congestion pricing. This is a conspiracy theory. This is not a...

It's not a conspiracy theory. This woman is not a Trump administration plant. This is a conspiracy theory. No, it is not a conspiracy theory. So you are going to now verify for me that this is a Trump administration? The Department of Transportation, Sean Duffy, the administrator, has bragged about it. They put out last week, they put out this TikTok films showing people who were complaining about congestion pricing. Yes.

What do you mean they put them? I mean, they found them and retweeted. Yes. But that's quite different than saying they weren't organic videos of people who were upset about congestion pricing. No, no, no. They made a video. It was not organic. Okay, this is not a Trump-made video.

Okay, I understand. I pay a lot of attention to the concerns about congestion pricing. But you won't even listen to what this woman has to say. I know what the woman has to say. What do you think she's going to say? I'm sure. She's going to talk about how the subway is a... I mean, I can just cut it into the video if you don't't even listen to what this woman has to say. I know what the woman has to say. What do you think she's going to say? I'm sure. She's going to talk about how the subways...

I mean, I can just cut it into the video if you don't want to listen to it. The people specifically ask for safer subways. What does New York City do? Okay, we're just going to have people pay a toll

to come into the city forcing people to take public transportation, which is fucking dangerous. Like, y'all are not going to get me to take the fucking train. I don't care. When I used to take public transportation which is fucking dangerous like y'all are not gonna get me to take the fucking train i don't care when i used to take public transportation let me just say this first the trains were never safe you couldn't have your fucking iphone out like that you couldn't have it was never safe but i do want to say i was allowed to get a little nap. I could close my eyes for a few minutes.

No, I didn't think somebody was going to light me on fire or push me on the train tracks. It wasn't like that. You were more scared that people might steal something from you. But I didn't think I was going to lose my life on the train. Like that was never a thought when I was taking public transportation. I made a video maybe a year or two stating that I really would not take public transportation. I don't care what the fuck is going on because I enjoy being in the comfort of my car and I'm not having to like look over my shoulder every five minutes. Like you literally can get on the live by just going to work.

Like it's so common now. And I'm like, no. But New York Cityork city y'all gotta get the fuck together like i probably got like two more years in this fucking state and i gotta get the fuck out because it's y'all and even though i make the money like i don't want to pay for these things what the fuck is going on i want to know who approved this new fare congestion fee to go into manhattan we already have to pay a fare to go over any of the bridges any of the tunnels and now we're paying another fare to be just there under 60th street i'd rather walk from my house in queens to manhattan than pay that nine dollar fee but there's. But there's a number of women, just like Tiana's friend, who say,

I'm not taking that subway. It's dangerous. I'm not walking home from the subway because it's dangerous. I got my kids to drive around. I got my, this, there's no subway near me. There's old people. I mean, this is why I know that

because somehow in the most liberal city, all of a sudden, everybody's thinking like a Republican. In any normal other issue, such a regressive tax that was designed to price people out of driving to work. It's not a tax, it's a user fee.

Such a regressive user fee would be considered something that the rich people want. It's like the rich people want to get to work faster, so let's charge the poor enough money so they won't drive. The poor are on mass transit. You're missing the whole point. Then who is getting...

Poor people are not driving into Manhattan to work. Then why do we have less congestion? Why? Yeah. Because people are making different choices. Who? Rich people? Some. Some.

Yes, some. But all sorts of people are making different choices. You can't admit to me it's mostly people who can't afford it? Many of the vehicles, especially the trucks, that were coming across, that had chosen to come across Manhattan, across Canal Street because it was so much more convenient and cheaper for them, are now going around because they don't want to pay the fee. You're contradicting yourself. You just finished telling me subway ridership is up.

It is. Yeah, so those aren't truckers. I'm talking about truckers. Right, but I'm saying. Truckers. I think if I could summarize, some number of poor people or middle class people or working class people are being priced off the road. A greater number, hopefully, are benefiting from improvements in mass transit.

Then let's just then let's just charge the trucks. Then let's not charge the poorer people. Well, your point about why not just tax the rich, I guess, is a valid point. It would it wouldn't. Well, Kelly already did that. Can't we admit- What that wouldn't do- Can't you admit that at some point,

part of this theory rests on the idea of pricing people off the roads who can't afford it? Can't you admit that? Or who choose not to. Or who choose not to. Yes, because they're cheap. It is a, it's not because they're cheap necessarily. It's because we give them a good option.

What's the good option? A good option is Metro North or the Long Island. They already had that option and they forwent it. They didn't want the option. No, because largely out of habit, we've got a country that's a car culture. And if people have gotten used to getting it one way, when we interview people who are driving in and paying the tolls today, 66%, as it was, as of the first month of congestion pricing, 66% of the people who are driving in and pay the tolls

say they now support congestion pricing because they're getting hours back in their day. Yes, like me. It's more time. That's right. Because that's because they don't care about the people who are getting out of their way. This is such a, this is exactly what I'm saying. This is like, again, I, I like, I know John Moore quarter a little bit. I'm a huge fan of his, but when he, when he, when he says almost, almost like without self awareness for us, for those of us who need to drive, he's like, yes, John, you need to

drive and you can afford it. There are other people who need to drive, quote unquote. Nobody needs to drive, but they can't afford the $9. And it's going up to $20, whatever it's going up to, $15. They can't afford it. Bernie Sanders was fetching that tariffs. Easy on the Yiddish. Bernie Sanders was complaining that tariffs are going to cost

the average American family $1,200 a year this is what he said, I'm like $1,200 a year that's less than congestion pricing is going to cost each driver in the family so from a liberal point of view and what are they saving on gasoline

time, getting to work on time what are they saving? I don't, first of all... See, that's what you're missing. No, no. First of all, you're assuming they're going to get to work quicker. And I think that's absolutely not true. But it has proven true. You would be contradicting fact if you say that's

not true. It has proven true. They are getting to work quicker. Who is getting to work quicker? People from Staten Island? Yes. Yes, absolutely. This is... Are they mostly taking buses? The people from Staten Island? This is so anti-

logical to me. You're saying that people who are better off in every way, they're saving money, they're getting to work quicker, and it's more convenient, will not do it unless we force them. And this is our public policy. No, it's not it unless we force them. And this is our public policy.

No, it's not a matter of forcing them. People know it's in their own interest. They have a choice. So it's not forcing them. It's letting them experience the options. And again, the key here is, and what we have to do very well, is make sure that we are making every place in the city accessible by expanding and improving our transit system. And how many years will that take?

And that is an ongoing process, but it's one that's underway. Approximately how many years? And it will not happen if we don't invest. But how many years will it take? Well, right now, we have started already buying new equipment. Okay, but we've seen some of these projects take 15, 20 years. We've seen that. Is there some reason that this project, we should expect it to take two years, three years?

Well, I think you can do a lot with buses much more quickly, obviously, than you can do with subways. Yeah. So that can probably happen virtually tomorrow. And they have changed the bus routes and added bus routes where needed, where there were transit. And do we have data on how fast the buses are moving? I think you alluded to that earlier. Yeah.

No, we do. The buses are moving substantially. I don't understand why it's all night. I don't understand why it's in all neighborhoods. It's just a money grab. And what's going to happen, in my opinion, and with James Surowiecki, what's going to happen is that bosses are going to give raises for their employees who can't do it.

Other people are going to take different jobs. Eventually, all the costs are going to get passed through to the consumers. Congestion will come back exactly as it has in London. New York City will be ever the more expensive.

But there will be a brand new stream of revenue for the government to waste. That is what I predict. And by the way, you might be right. I know on Twitter recently you said that I'm beyond, that I forgot the words you used, but basically you said... I said you're irredeemable.

I've said I don't know what you said. The fact of the matter is, is if the data contradicts me in a year's time, I'll say, it's too late. It doesn't matter. But even if the data contradicts, they will never undo it. Well, I'll admit that I was, that I, I, I, in other words, I'm not, you can look at London. Well, London, the traffic is back. I believe there's 105% of what it was. I believe there's other factors. I think the city has grown, and I believe some of the streets have been closed for pedestrian traffic.

And London has exemptions. They included exemptions for electric vehicles and other exemptions that we don't have. So there, they had a whole different set of incentives. Okay, but we were told over and over, when this first came on, the idea is it's working in London, it's working in London.

And then over the time it took to get congestion pricing, London faded as a good example. And then people explained that away too. London is doing what they want to do. They wanted to reduce pollution.

I mean, their main objective was environmental when they passed this in London. But congestion is back right back where it was. I know the deputy mayor who led the effort.

Well, the congestion might be back. I don't know, but it might be largely electric at this point. I don't know, but it might be largely electric at this point. I don't know. They've incentivized electric vehicles. We should do that. That's perfectly fine. As far as why don't just tax the rich, that might be a way to go. You know what electric vehicles cost?

You wouldn't get... Speaking of the poor, they're very expensive. Electric vehicles get cheaper and cheaper, and people have the option, least they have the option To stay with the status quo But that's not about poor people Being able to get around the city

I want to read James Sirowike You know James Sirowike he is Why not just tax the rich Maybe that's a good way to do it We've already done it We're doing it We're doing it more now There won't be any it. You wouldn't get, well, he means. We're doing it. We're doing it more now.

Which you wouldn't get. There won't be any left. Which you wouldn't get, I assume, are faster bus times, better pedestrian experience. When you. We pay express bus rides. Traffic fatalities are down. Yeah. You know, those sorts of benefits that you wouldn't get. When you modeled this out, did they model out the effects of the employers simply giving the raise to their employees and then passing the costs through to the consumers?

That wasn't what they were looking at. They weren't looking at the price of congestion tolls or what the application was. What they were looking at was what excess traffic congestion when it goes from being a busy street to gridlock, what does that cost an economy? That's what they were looking at. What we need to do is really bring a

hammer down on people that cross the intersection without creating the gridlock. You need to know that you can get all the way across. And if you don't, you need a beating. Once we do that, we'll get traffic moving a lot quicker. I agree.

We need better enforcement. We can't get the police right now to enforce the most basic crimes. and this is something that, this is a difference that gets more and more difficult for me to live with over the last 10 years. The difference in life experience between the people like you and Alex Matheson and people coming, nice people, smart people, who tell me about your projections, who have zero idea of what this is in real life, to the real people this is impacting.

You've got to be kidding. That's an insult, and that's ridiculous. Then I don't know what real life is? You think that the police are going to start enforcing this stuff now? Believe me. I'm the one that brought up a great- I have spent a lot more time on the ground in New York City than you

have. Are the police enforcing stuff now? The police are hamstrung now in a lot of ways. I'm not arguing that. That's my point. That was... Yes, but if part of this congestion pricing to all work out depends on the police, and you're acknowledging they're hamstrung,

then this is half-baked. How does it depend on the police and you're acknowledging they're hamstrung then this is half-baked how does it depend on the police because we need the police for people at least to be able to safely travel on mass transit yes and they are doing that no they're hamstrung they don't crime in mass transit crime in the subways is down substantially in the last couple months jesse tish just released new information. And they are, in fact, really focused on the subways. There's a whole new program. There's now cameras all over the place on the trains. And so they are really going after that.

They're going after the fare evasion situation, which is, you know, nobody pays the fare to go commit a crime on the subway, and they're going after all of that. And there's a big investment in mental health facilities, and the governor is now trying to pass legislation that would allow for forcing people to stay in treatment and not having this revolving door in the emergency rooms on mental health.

There is a comprehensive effort going on to make our transit system safer. And you, okay, listen, I don't think it's going to happen because it's never happened, except under like Giuliani and Bloomberg. I don't think they have the will for it. And, but this, maybe this is how we'll wrap it up. Who knows who's coming your way in the next mayor election. But- Could be Corinne Fisher, by the way. So James Surowiecki says, I mean, you'll agree with this. And in the

end, it does come down to whether you think, what do you think is realistic? I mean, or what do you think is pie in the sky? Because he's very in favor of congestion pricing. He says, figuring out, and he had a very influential book, The Wisdom of Crowds. He says, figuring out how much driving should cost, though, is a tough problem. And economists have spilled a lot of ink trying to solve it. One obvious challenge is that the wealthier you are, the easier it is to trade money for time and convenience. Exactly what I'm saying. You'll pay to drive into London

because it's easier than taking the tube. Poorer people can avoid the toll, not by driving, but I'm sorry, poor people can avoid the toll by not driving, but that doesn't make them any better off than they were before. This is the key. Actually makes them worse off.

So any fair congestion pricing plan, and I'm saying it's not fair, has not only to charge tolls, but also to redistribute the revenue they raise. Singapore did that by building a hyper-modern mass rapid transit system. And Livingstone's plan for London similarly involves spending hundreds of million dollars

on public transportation. And it goes on and on. Exactly. It's dedicated revenues, and our revenues by law are 100% dedicated to improving the MTA. Now I'm saying, and this is where the rubber hits the road,

I'm going to guarantee you that 10 years from now, we are not going to have any new hyper-modern mass rapid transportation system in New York City. And therefore, by Surowiecki's own logic, it is unfair. And if you believe this is going to happen, I mean, there's no even approved plans for some hyper-modern transportation system in New York. They're talking about some elevators here for the handicapped. They're always tweaking, but there's no new subway line that's going to-

Have you been on the 2nd Avenue subway? No, I have not been on it. Well, I'm just saying there are, in fact fact plans for new systems, the inner borough going between Brooklyn and Queens, which is a route that we really need. We have new centers of employment and economic activity throughout the borough and the region. And we've got to build transit to fit to that. And we've got to be able to afford that. And we're tapping all sources. We're tapping rich people. We're tapping all sources we're tapping rich people we're talking business we're taxing we're we're upping the fares we're tapping all sources and tolls are a small part of that also as i said earlier uh yeah subways are going to take a long time but buses can be brought online

like virtually overnight and the first expense that the first revenues from congestion pricing have gone to purchase new buses in southeastern Queens, which is one of those areas with weak public transportation. But don't you understand a lot of people have kids. They plan their lives around dropping their kids off, daycare, going shopping. They live, as you say, in transportation deserts. They maybe have jobs that are not convenient. Some people are older.

They don't want to walk in the brutally cold winters. And most of those people are dependent on public transit and we have to invest in it. No, they're not. The Second Avenue subway took... The Second Avenue subway was conceived in

2007. It took 10 years. 2007? Yeah. Try 1907. They started building in 2007. It was 10 years. 2007? Yeah. Try 1907. I'm sorry, they started building in 2007. It was restarted in 2007. It took them 10 years to complete phase one. Phase two is planned to be finished by,

you want to guess, Dan? Phase two? Yeah. That's going up to 125th Street, I believe. Yeah, yeah. This is how long they plan to take it. 2030? 2032.

That's why I'm calling bullshit on the whole thing. This is a long-planned thing. 2032. The people that you're talking about are going to benefit from this. They're not going to benefit. They're going to be old by then. They're going to suffer. They're benefiting. Right now,

the MTA has already brought new buses for Southeast Queens. The benefits are starting to come now. There are very few things that you pay taxes on where you see that kind of return on your investment very fast. What would five years from now or a year from now, what statistical measures would cause you to say, Oh, this may not be working as I thought.

If, um, if? If traffic gets worse. If traffic comes back. If traffic gets worse. I was worried when we had recommended a fee of $15. The governor insisted that that was too much sticker shock, that we should lower it. She was able to reduce it, still meet the terms and reduce it to $9. I was very worried that when it got turned on, the $9 would not be enough to reduce traffic. And so I was very relieved when in fact it made a significant reduction.

When she said she was suspending congestion pricing indefinitely in her inner circle, they knew that wasn't true? No, she did suspend it without a date certain of when it would come back. No, but indefinitely doesn't usually mean until the day after the election. I mean, obviously, this was calculated, right? It wasn't just by coincidence after the election.

Oh, you know, I revisited. I think it's a good idea. You agree they were trying to avoid the election, right? No, I spoke to her when she paused it. She was very concerned that the best we had been able to come up with, I was on the mobility board that came up with the pricing, that the best we had been able to come up with was 15 bucks.

And she felt that was a real burden to start out at 15 bucks. She said, can't we bring it in? She could have lowered it to nine then. And well, it took time because it was a negotiation with the, with the federal department of transportation because they had improved, they had improved one set of circumstances and they had to refigure everything. I think it's been reported, I think it's been reported factually that they paused it because of the election. I think that's actually been—

That has been—the governor has never said that. That has been an assumption, a political assumption, and it certainly would have made sense. I think people have sources close to the governor that have— Yeah, no, no, I know that, but the governor has not said that. Right, but we know a lot of things about our leaders that they don't admit to, but they're verified by reporters and journalists. Well, the point, my original point was that I was concerned at that point that it was too low a number to work.

But in fact, it has worked. But you knew it was coming back. Yes. Well, I knew that she said this was a pause. She didn't say pause. She said suspended indefinitely. No, she said this is a pause. No, she said suspended indefinitely. She said both. She said both.

She said, I'm suspending this indefinitely without a date certain. And then she said, but this is a pause. When asked in that same press conference, when asked, she said, this is a pause. When asked, in that same press conference, when asked, she said, this is a pause, and we will review it, we'll see what we can do, and see if we can bring it back. And I had that conversation with her afterwards, reinforcing that it was a pause to figure out a better solution. She came back with that, got it approved by the fed feds and was able to put it in place i think it's a crazy all right i guess listen you're you're you're you're as good an advocate for it as there has ever been um i nobody wants it that's like we don't care about the people who are

priced off the roads that is that is absolutely not true we are doing this for the people who don't have the resources to drive into Manhattan every day, who have to come into Manhattan, who don't have the resources to drive to their job at a hospital in Queens. We're doing this to improve our mass transit system. But we understand, based on every bit of common sense and previous experience you're talking about 15 20 25 years for this stuff that you're talking about no you're not they're improving the signal systems as we speak improving is not this you're talking about an overhaul you're not talking about improving you don't you don't bring you don't bring a subway closer to somebody's house by improving. We have a very good system. We have added the express buses.

I have one that stops in front of my house. I don't have a subway within 20 minutes, but I have an express bus that stops in front of my house. Well, if I walk fast, it's 20 minutes. So we are making those improvements now. You're too cynical about what's happening. Because I know people

just one example like an old woman has to take a bus to the subway to work at night in Manhattan and by the way she wouldn't have to

if they just would take the charge off in the evening. Or if you'd raise her salary. Yeah, that's right. Or if I raise it, but not everybody will raise it. But I'm saying the theory of if I raise a salary, then I got to raise my prices.

And then it just makes Manhattan more expensive. And many people are, I know many, many people have already gotten their salaries raised by their bosses for whatever it is. As I said before, we agree on the affordability crisis the city is facing. And that's something we have to do something about absolutely nothing can be but one of the things we do about that is we keep subway fares

as low as possible for the 95 percent of people who are dependent on the subways to get to work and on the buses to get to work we want to keep those fares low and the drivers who have average income substantially higher than the subway riders are contributing to that. You know, from time to time, you might've had this experience. I go to another city like Miami or, you know, just other cities. And I look around, they have transportation, they have running water. Are you kidding? They don't have transportation. They don't have public transportation. Everybody has to have a car. Well, I don't know about Miami,

but they have, you know, you got me there. We have the best public transit system in the country. The transportation side, I was making a broader point that everything costs like three times as much for tax dollars in New York as it does in other cities.

Exactly. They will have schools and get the same results in New York City schools for $12,000 a student. We have $40,000 a student. They have streetlights. Their streetlights cost one quarter where our streetlights do.

They have hot and cold running water, our hot and cold running water. Everything to build the Second Avenue subway costs more for us than socialized Europe. So this notion that we have to do something about the cost, you got to go in there. I don't want to sound like Trump. They have to go in there with a wrecking ball. They have to break the unions.

There's no magic way of breaking the cost here. They have to rip the city apart. And they're just putting band-aid upon band-aid upon band-aid. You're right. They were all taxed out. Everybody knew they were taxed out. So how else are we going to get this revenue? I got it.

We'll dress it up as environmental and congestion. And we'll get more revenue that way. This is just a revenue grab as demonstrated by the fact it goes all night. There's no reason in the world that you go all night. I would say it's just a revenue grab if it was not improving people's commutes as it is. The rich people's commutes. No. No.

The bus riders' commutes are very much the most improved. Again, why does it go all night? It goes all night because there is traffic 24-7 in New York. But it's not congested. It's much lower. Well, it's much lower at night trying to get people, especially we're trying to get trucks to come in and deliver. Okay, you can take it for the trucks, but why can't every day? I have a nightclub.

We're open at night. That's actually where we see the biggest fall off is our late shows. You don't want to pay the damn toll to come and see a show at 11 o'clock at night. Why are they charging people at 11 o'clock at night under the guise of saying to get traffic off? It's not congested at 11 o'clock at night. Why are they doing that? They are doing that to raise revenues. Yeah. Yeah. That is correct. But they're doing it at a very low price point by comparison.

And they're trying to create the incentive for those who have the choice to come in later at night. All right. Well, I think it's absurd to think that you're going to get better economy by charging people to get to places. Well, I thank you for devoting this amount of time to discussing congestion pricing. Check the Broadway stats. You'll see I'm right. Check them. You and I agreed on what the Broadway stats were. Yeah, but I'm saying that if you control for the already up –

Oh, whatever. Yeah, I should – yeah. I don't see – Anyway, whatever. Hopefully it'll work out. Listen, as. I don't see, um, whatever, whatever. Hopefully it'll, it'll work out.

Listen, as I said, my commute is awesome. Good. Okay. Thank you for coming. Thank you for having me. Thank you.