The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Mehran Khaghani, Bryan Caplan and Justin McKinney

Episode Date: August 19, 2022

Mehran Khaghani is a standup comedian, emcee and actor. He is "remarkably gay" and of Iranian descent. He is a regular at The Comedy Cellar.  Bryan Caplan is a Professor of Economics at George Mason University and New York Times Bestselling author.  Justin McKinney has had multiple performances on The Tonight Show, his own Comedy Central specials and consistently selling out theaters. 

I didn't know we did it, but I didn't know we did a 6 p.m. show on Wednesday. Is that new? No. Oh, hi. OK, so should I should I do the intro to the intro? I just want to say one thing. Hi, Mehran. Hi. OK, I'm ready to do the intro. No, I just want to say one thing. The most the other important reason not to talk over each other is because it makes it very difficult for the listeners to follow this is my first time doing a podcast all right you'll get you make your point

listen to me nicole if i go like this you mute you mute his mic i'm not playing because i know listen i mean if i go like this i'm giving Noam the finger. Because even if what he says is wrong, I don't think what he said is evil. No, it's absolutely sinister. Hold on. Is that him? No. This is the worst angle for me.

Here's the thing. First of all, Mehran is difficult to corral about anything, but this is a subject which he understandably feels takes personally. I don't understand why this asshole even wrote this article. I don't want to hear these.

Listen, you cannot call him names. I can't call him an asshole. No. He can say that there's such a thing as a gay and gender propaganda exists, but I can't call this guy a fucking nimwit. You don't know what an ad hominem attack is? You attack his arguments. You do not call him names. Someone

should call him a name. No, no. There has to be some proportional deterrent for goofballs to not run their mouths about bad signs. Hold on. As a personal favorite to me, because this is a guest on my show, do not call him names. You made him a guest on my show. No, that's my show also.

Oh. It is. a guest on my show. Mehran, no, that's my show also. It is. Then emcee it. I won't emcee it. I'll get someone instead of you. That's already going to happen. Okay, so can we start? I have a 6.40 spot.

Since when are we doing 6 p.m. shows on Wednesday? I don't know, but I'm worried about this. Oh, let him in, let him in. Okay, should I start? Are we ready? Yes. This is Live from the Table, recorded at the at the world famous comedy cellar in New York's historic Greenwich Village. This is Dan Natterman.

Oh, also, I should note that this is coming at you on Sirius XM 99. Raw dog. And on the Laugh Button podcast network, Dan Natterman here, along with Noam Dwarman, owner of the world famous comedy cellar, back from his vacation in the great state of Maine. Noam, I assume things went well in Maine. Things went very well in Maine. We have with us via Zoom from the city of Tel Aviv, meaning Spring Hill, I believe. Tel Aviv, Israel. She is coming from actually from Ramat HaSharon, but that's a suburb. Periel Ashenbrand is with us, and she's a producer of our show,

or at least that's what she calls herself. We have with us Brian Kaplan, an academic, and I believe he's performed here before. No, he performed at our New Joke Night. That is interesting. Two weeks ago.

That's right. We have with us also comedy seller, regular comedian Mehran Kagani. It's such a pleasure to be here. Thank you. This this should be a heated discussion. Please.

Let's all keep emotions. OK, can I say side and let's hear each other discuss. I want to say a few things before we begin. First of all, I want to acknowledge that that that I thought you were more at ease actually in the, in the tape that you gave me. I sensed a little bit of a butterflies that maybe, maybe I'm imagining it, but all in all, what was your reaction to it?

That was a lot of fun. Thanks so much for making this personal dream come true. I had been wanting to do it for a couple of years and I just like trying new things and you let me do it. lot of fun you know thanks so much for making this personal dream come true noam i have been wanting to do it for a couple years and i just like trying new things and you let me do it it was like and i got to start at the top that's cool well is it something that you would try to do again if the opportunity presented itself i'm not gonna go on the road and leave my career and family but knowing that it hardly works out for anyone, but I would definitely try it again. If people are interested, sure. There's a thing that standup comics seem to have where they

get something that, that nourishes them in some way about being up in front of an audience and telling these jokes. Do you feel that that's in you? Were you moved by that in some way? Yeah. I mean, you know, like I'm already a public speaker i do that professionally the main thing that's different is just level memorization that i thought i needed to do for comedy normally i just ad lib everything and i don't brian if you're interested in getting into the business uh i'm willing to sell you my entire act wow right and i'll i'll throw in i'll throw in my uh rare book fake excerpts uh sketches and a set of steak knives for three million dollars like about 75 percent of the audience at new jokes was was mr was professor kaplan check on professor cabot brian's

was brian's it seemed like uh he kind of sold out the room. Okay, so let me finish. What do you say to my offer? Yeah. And I will give you six months of personal coaching. I will throw that in as well. Yeah.

Let's start small with a free gift. Never never mind okay the offer was what it was and um by the way if anybody in our audience is amenable to that offer please let us know at podcast at comedyseller.com for comments questions suggestions and to accept my offer which i think is a good deal is this going out live as well? No, no, no. So, OK, so let's so so let me. So anyway, so so I mean, I was going to put it out there.

So Mehran, he was he was annoyed, frankly. I was the emcee for that show. I'm just saying he was emcee and he and he was annoyed by the fact that you won. And he he he said something to me. I can look up the text. I'm happy to catch everyone up. No, no, no. I didn't ask you that. Brian, when you went on stage...

May I please? Brian, one second. Christ almighty. You have to read. You have to research. I'm going to control the show. It's like you're meat shielding this. Maybe that's meat shielding.

What does that mean? As in you're throwing your entire body in the way of something actually interesting. Okay. So he said that, hold on. So, so,

so, oh my God, now you threw me off, Mehran. But anyway, he, he claimed that you made some kind of remark about something gay whatever and I said I said that doesn't sound right oh for the love of Christ allow me no one because you really you dragged that one he went on stage and said who

remembers the 90s which is just a dreadful premise all right all right and then right who remembers the 90s right guys and then said And then said, I don't think that's it. He said before gay and gender propaganda. Somebody said those were his exact. So I went back and watched the set. Hold on. And it seemed all like just like funny to me. I didn't I didn't take it at all the way, Mehran, because you wouldn't hold on. So then I realized that I didn't realize that you had written an

article recently about the fact that you believe that the science shows that there is some acquired homosexuality. Acquired homosexuality. Mehran being gay takes this personally and having worked in public health writing for

Larry Summers, I'm not like, first of all, hold on, hold on, hold on, please. He's angry about it. And now I should tell you, Mehran is a smart, very smart guy. He worked with Larry Summers and he's. Ashish Jha, Atul Gawande, Arnie Epstein. And and and so against kind of my better judgment, I'm going to allow him to have at you. I don't I don't know. It's not.

But but but but please, Mehr't, I don't know. It's not, but, but, but, but please, Mehran, please be kind. No, I don't give a shit if you're kind or not.

Be as ruthless as you want to his arguments, but we're going to have a civil conversation. That's it. You're, you're, you're jumping in the way of something that hasn't even happened. So, so can he go first?

Can I just address the issue? Remember the nineties is a bad premise. I disagree that it's a bad premise. A lot of comics. of something that hasn't even happened. Can he go first? Can I just address the issue that remember the 90s is a bad premise? I disagree that it's a bad premise. A lot of comics... Checking with the audience being like, who remembers the 90s? Am I right? Alright. You also have to remember that was his very first time doing stand-up. I respect that.

I have to give him a little feedback. I respect that it was his first time and I think the cellar is a great place to start at the top. So then opening going from that segwaying into gay and gender propaganda and propaganda is a pretty loaded word, Brian, right. Depends. I'm sorry. It depends. It depends like, you know nazi propaganda about jews that was propaganda

right saying that cockroaches rats untidy effect on neighborhoods that's a that's a less than savory use of propaganda yeah right because it's it's public health propaganda uh but propaganda means that that the it's founded on deceit right that is the definition of propaganda it implies deceit see there's perhaps a connotation of deceit but no it really just means that you are giving people an oversimplified and one-sided view of things but doesn't necessarily mean that it's wrong or that you're intending to deceive them that it literally definitionally implies deceit but i'm but we'll we'll show we can we can shelf that what so you feel that there has been propaganda information especially of a biased or

misleading nature or publicize a particular political cause point of view so that's the the first definition of a misleading nature. No biased, especially of a bias and misleading nature. So, you know, that's not exclusively. I'm so glad. And bias is not this. And we should,

we should leave as many tracks to hide in as possible. And I think, I think biased is what Brian is kind of saying. When you, when you simplify something in order to lead people kind of by the nose to a conclusion, you want them to have, I'd say that's propaganda propaganda you can do that with truth or with with falsity that's how i would say um you agree with that professor sure yeah okay well at least he didn't

bring up something controversial about the 90s like grunge music there it is what's all this there it is i was talking about the 80s the 80s okay and then right so the 90s certainly had a degree of homosexual and and gender propaganda okay do you do mayron do you want to listen do you you read his article and you and you have an intellectual beef with it let's get to the intellectual i want to hear where he's coming from noam you read his article i did i read his article that's where he's coming from The shoddy, the shoddy data article we'll get to. Oh my God. Sorry.

Go ahead. It is. It's, it's just, it's the, it's founded on shoddy data, like a single Gallup poll, but then like,

doesn't take big picture stuff into account. We'll get to be specific and then he can answer you. Okay. Well, the first thing I want to ask is what is gay and gender propaganda? Okay. Go ahead. Oh, we can, we can go back to the definite definition we're talking about so yes information particularly of a of a biased or of a biased character trying to get people to go and end

up with the same conclusion that you're trying to push on them and what is that as it relates to homosexuality um well is there any big mystery about this i'm puzzled no but i want you to articulate it at least and of course there's a mystery to it but let's see uh for example it would be biased it would be propaganda to say that here's the official position homosexuality is entirely genetic and this is now what we're going to tell everybody right and there's a lot of evidence that is not so in fact that isn't that isn't like suppose you go to a school and you put all over the school saying every other that you are that you are born gay this is the only way that anyone ever is gay and then you act like there's no other view or there's nothing to discuss. That's propaganda. Your article said you wrote a book on genetics, right?

Yes. Okay. So let's go to the article, right? You talk about acquired homosexuality, right? Acquired medically, the definition of it being that that's anything that is diagnosed after birth, right? That is acquired. Well, you just say there's anything that is not entirely genetic uh anything that isn't identified at birth so for example of course i mean most things are not

diagnosed at birth but it can turn out oh you actually have hunting disease we had no idea until you were 50 but it's still but what about uh brian can i call you brian hmm uh what about what about hormonal factors in utero? Would that be considered? It's not genetic necessarily. There's some data around that. But would that be acquired? Absolutely.

Yeah, of course. So your definition of acquired for purposes of this discussion is anything that's not DNA encoded. Yeah. Is there any reason to believe that homosexuality is DNA encoded? Yes, absolutely. To some degree. That's the important thing. So I have written. Anyway, if you're wondering why an economist is even talking about this, I did write a book on human genetics. There's been a lot of research trying to compare twins and their sexual orientation. What you see is that identical twins are a lot more likely to have the same orientation than fraternal twins, which is a smoking gun for a genetic effect. What you also see is that the concordance between identical twins for sexual orientation is much less than 100%.

Right. But we also know about incomplete penetrance, right? As in genetics, you do genetics. So incomplete penetrance. What's incomplete penetrance? What's incomplete penetrance? I never heard that before. It is the idea that in almost, genetically, in almost zero cases, in almost no cases, is there a 100% correlation

between the manifestation of a condition and the presence of its gene. It almost never happens. Well, but- It is incredibly rare. No, no, no. Yeah. It's not true.

That is incomplete penetrance. I've never heard of identical twins that both didn't have the same eye color. It is incomplete. I've never heard of identical twins that both didn't have the same eye color. It is rare. I could probably list 20 things like that off the top of my head. The same hair color, the same shape of those. Their height differs within, you know, we're talking about. And, you know, you know how big if you want, if like a gene, a genetic identical twin is very musically gifted. The other identical twin is almost always musically gifted. Actually, I've never heard of time they weren't both musically gifted.

As a genetic reality, incomplete penetrance is the idea that it is not 100%. It doesn't happen at 100%. There's noise, but it's close to 100%. Then there's the idea of expressivity, right? I mean, Mehran, what you're saying is, is that right? Right? So we're belied by the fact that identical twins are almost impossible to tell apart. It means like every feature is almost visually in front of you. 100% penetrance.

That's why we can tell our identical twins that they are still not. These are not arguments against me. This is agreeing with me. No, I'm certainly agreeing with you. I'm disagreeing with your fundamental premise that that 100 penetrates that identical twins are entirely identical in terms of like their parents have trouble telling them apart sometimes oh my god no i'm that when you when you're talking about genes and brian please i mean i realize that you're not going to bite the hand that's

protecting you but i'm not you, but your whole body. Am I saying something incorrect about identical twins? Everybody knows identical twins. They are not entirely identical. They do not turn out the exact same. No, but there is a reason we call them identical. So what is accounting for what? The reason we call them identical is because they are genetically identical.

Well, I don't know if we knew that before we called them identical. When we start going and looking at their individual traits, we can see that for different traits, identical twins normally have high correlations, but it varies a lot. So, for example, you'll see that identical twins will usually have a correlation of about 0.9 for height. That basically, a perfect correlation would be 1. They're like 0.9. For something like intelligence or measured intelligence would be one they're like 0.9 for something like intelligence or measured intelligence that also be like 0.9 for personality traits would normally be quite a bit lower at more like 0.6 so you know like there are you're thinking for things like eye color there i think it really would normally be 100% contort it's like

they're both always going okay so you have you have one you have one if you were to really measure their eye color with a spectrometer instead of just saying blue green then you probably would actually find even slight differences there because there are you know like with the nose like some person can break their nose and then it's no longer the same nose so there are differences but still because you question about that like these are all examples of how genetics are not the whole story. And it's also true for sexual orientation that it is not the whole story. We can see that if you look at two identical twins, they will not have the same sexual orientation with 100% probability.

Or sexual appetite. What I want to know is – I want to ask one question before we move on. You say – this is interesting to me. So 0.1 is perfect correlation, right? 0.0 is, no, 1.0 is perfect. I'm sorry, 1 is perfect correlation. 0 would be perfect negative correlation. 0 would be unrelated. Negative 1 would be perfect opposite correlation. Okay. So 0.6 is still quite high. Yeah, 0.6 is still very noticeable.

I mean, a good way to think about this is if you just were eyeballing the numbers, if you just plotted it, basically when you're down to something like 0.1, it just looks like nothing to you. You need to actually have a computer to see if there's anything. On the other hand, something like 0.6 would be really obvious, and 0.9, they practically look like the same thing, but not quite. There's just a little bit of a fuzz in the data. I forgot that was close to negative. Yeah, please. First of all, I wonder how the audience reacted when you said, remember that before gay propaganda. I can't believe that they weren't.

75% of them were there to see him and they clapped like suckers. So go ahead. I can't believe that they weren't 75 percent of them were there to see him and they clapped like so. So anyway, my my my my other question is, is why is it? Why is this controversial? Maybe Brian is wrong. Maybe being gay is 100 percent genetic. Maybe it's not. Who cares? How does that change? How is it? How is it a bad thing? If if homosexuality were required, Why would that be a bad thing? That's interesting. Well, I know an answer.

Why would that be something that people feel furiously about or that, you know, or that would merit? It's a really good article. There's there's. Look, so there's some sense where if it's genetic, then it's just totally futile to try to change it. So then there's no reason to try to change it. Whereas environmental, at least maybe someone will get the idea of changing it. That by itself is really complicated because it's, well, wait a second. Just because it's not entirely genetic doesn't mean that you know how to change it or that you should change it.

But I do think that part of the reason why people are so- And by the way, just because it's genetic doesn't mean it's unchangeable. If you can say that it's impossible to change, so don't try. That is a more comfortable argument than it's possible, but don't try, be for other reasons. So are you someone who's studied human sexuality and behavior in a deep and meaningful way? I've studied the genetics of sexual orientation in a deep and meaningful way, but I haven't got that. So then you know about expressivity. Expressivity.

Yes. Sure. Right. As in like colors and violets or alpha thalassemia, right? Like the degree to which someone is anemic, it happens on a spectrum. The degree to which a flower is violet happens on a spectrum. Brian, were you aware that you would be having an argument of this intensity? Someone you offended. Don't start with that.

Offended. Who gives a shit if you're offended? I do, and it's why I'm here. No. My general rule. Hold on. That's really not fair. What?

Because you know as well as I do that everybody's offended about everything today. That's that's really not fair. What? You're because because, you know, as well as I do, that everybody's offended by everything today. That's right. The only question is, can the man back up his article or I didn't assassinate him on social media. I asked to talk to him. And it's like if some if I brought in somebody who is very pro-Palestinian and she wanted to make a case about what Israel did. I'm offended. What do you mean you're offended? You're not here to be offended. Okay.

You're here to be able to demonstrate. You went from point A to point C and you made a mistake. I'm not shying away from the fact that it bummed me out. So it is why I asked to talk to whether there's anything wrong with it. So far, it seems like we actually agree. Well, but again, we're dealing with expressivity, but your statistics get weird, right? So you talk about, I have your article in front of me and I've read it just too many damn times. Strangely, it is the most viewed thing I ever wrote on my new blog. Because it's because it's

salacious and i have no idea why you gave a fuck about it can i ask you a few questions yeah okay so what do you what do you believe is the origin of homosexuality uh i personally think that uh it lives in sort of a gray area in like appetite and taste lives in a gray area uh that perhaps has some genetic uh origins it perhaps has some environmental okay causality so if it has some environmental causality isn't that what he's saying hold on he just said that yeah no no no no but i'm saying no i'm saying specific appetite if if it has some environmental causality, does that mean in the way you raise your child, you might be able to put your finger on the scale in terms of whether or not they become homosexual or not? OK, so what we know, right, is that historically deterrence. Right. We've we've put put in the 80s, right?

I actually have a fun little piece of data around that. You should be able to ask this question quickly. I'm asking a very basic question. Do you think how you're- 57% of people said that homosexuality should have been illegal in 1987. That couldn't be less of an answer to my question. I'm asking you, Mehran,

do you believe that the way you raise a child can influence whether or not they become homosexual? Personally, I think that creating like open parameters around, you know, you can enjoy whatever you want to with a consenting partner and letting them discover what that means is probably going to lead to the healthiest relationship with sex and sexuality. I didn't ask you about healthiest. I asked you about you're not attracted to women, right? I've tried it. Right. And you're not attracted. I'm you about, you're not attracted to women, right? I've tried it. Right. And you're not attracted. I'm a little attracted.

I'll play with a tip. A little. Okay. But you're not, but you play with it. Anybody else want to play with a tip? I mean, you're, you're,

you're being coy here. I'm not being coy. And difficult. I'm being incredibly direct, but I'm not. No, you're not because it's really, I don't like girl lips and I'm not wicked into pussy.

It's really a yes or no question. I have, I have a child. I'm not into kids either. Is there anything in the way I raise that child which could affect whether or not they become attracted to men or women? I don't think it could affect how they're attracted to it. I think it could affect how they end up expressing it in life.

You don't think it could affect? Huh? up expressing it in life. So you don't think it could affect? Huh? I think appetite and attraction is important. So no, we don't just need to speculate about this. We've actually got pretty good data on this. Go ahead. We can take a look at sexual orientation of unrelated kids that are raised together, like, for example, with two adoptees. And there we can see that there's actually that there's actually a, you know,

there's probably a very slight positive correlation, but not much. So it doesn't seem like just being raised in the same home has very much effect effect there either. It seems like it's something else that is neither in the genes nor in the home that really is mattering. And that was the point of the piece that I wrote where I said that we see an enormous increase in uh in non-straight sexual orientation over the last 80 years again the you know the data that's that we were talking about basically goes you know to people that are i think as old as in their 80s and 90s i mean see that there has just been a massive change in self-identified sexual orientation one One story, like I say, is that people just feel more comfortable saying it, but

the ratios are so extreme that... How about left-handedness? How about left-handedness, Brian? Right? We're looking at, you know, it was illegal in Albania well into the 70s, right?

So there are time periods in American history where we show that we had zero left. We had zero left handed people in this country. That was what the data showed. And then as it became. Huh? Is there data on it? Oh, I know what Maron is getting at is he believes that people are more free to express their homosexuality. So that's why I know he did. I'm reiterating. No, but he's saying that the numbers are really bizarre, that this is Utrecht. So we went from zero to 12 percent and then we kind of landed on 12 percent with left

handedness. Right. We didn't have to force it. We didn't have to massage it. But over time, when people were accommodated for being left handed, we eventually got to a plateau of about 12 percent. Left handedness is not environmental. It's just something you're born not environmental it's just something you're born with it's just something well actually listen to them so you think the people that were that were pressured in albania

to run with the right hands couldn't do it i think after going and working on the for 10 years they probably could write okay with the right hand it wasn't didn't come naturally but actually you were able to change their handedness and probably most of the time. And what is the fallout? No, no. And what is the fallout for something like that? I mean, this is, and why would we want to fall out of that? We're really digressing. It's not totally genetic.

I don't think we changed their handedness. I think we just got them to write with their right hand. Well, I mean, look, if you were to just say, look, handedness by definition means that if you like, are you able to write in an intellectual way with a hand then if you like if you actually go and pressure kids to go and do it for 10 years and it comes out they can write fine with the right hand i say you have changed their handedness no i would disagree you have i would disagree with that well i don't want to get into a discussion there is a correlation well there's like there's an analogy to be made i just can't do it whatever the whatever the data

shows with handedness is not directly related to what the data might show with sexuality. Do you believe, Brian Kaplan, that a child is not just with proper societal factors, not just that the child is more likely to accept feelings that he had anyway, but more likely to develop feelings that never would have developed at all it seems very plausible to me it seems plausible but you can't experience them you like you know like look so like like opera setting all right so opera i'm a big opera fan but if you've never heard any opera until you're 30 you're probably never going

to like it now again one thing you might say is well people make you do it and you pretend to like it that could happen it could be you actually acquire a taste you know there if you get if you look at and look at the data you'll see that there are many changes in people's sexual activities over time so you like so like as to why that couldn't be something that people learned and something where you never try it and then you don't get you don't you're going to you do not get a taste for it or you do try it and maybe say oh i don't like that or maybe you try oh i hadn't thought about that before maybe i do like it i actually appreciate so the 30 30 is a real number in in development and in psychology that uh we tend to be pretty set in what we like and don't like in in uh in our ways by the time we're 30. And that is

especially true of safety, of safety issues, what we're conservative about, not conservative in the sense of like politically conservative, but conservative in the sense of better safe than sorry versus say YOLO, right? Right. So I'm saying that if a person leading up to the age of 30 felt unsafe about expressing something, they are likely to remain to an extent feeling unsafe to express that thing. a 56% consensus in this country that it should be illegal and prosecutable or 1963, where it was illegal in all 50 states, that person who grew up within that environment, right? That person is going to feel unsafe. Even when the environment changes, even when the environment changes, just from a developmental psychology. Okay. Let me, let me, let me, let me zoom out for a second. Unless you have something directly want to answer about that, I want to. Brian?

I mean, I guess I would just say that I, so look, I'm a professor. There's a way that I deal with ideas, and that is to put emotion aside and just focus on specific questions. This is. One at a time. And I mean, look, I feel like Mehran really wants to go and deal with a lot of questions at once. And I don't think you make a lot of progress in that way. Let me see. I'm saying you chose one Gallup poll.

Mehran, hold on. Yeah, that's probably the best data that exists on Earth. It isn't. Okay, well, if you have better data. I do. Do you have it? On my personal? Oh, I have.

Okay. I have 23 pages. Okay, so with 23 pages, it's not going to work. You my, oh, I have. Okay. I have 23 pages. Okay. So with 23 pages, it's not going to work. You're going to have to have. One, I'll forward all of this to you. You can forward it. I want to zoom out for a second.

Because although I might seem, you might mistake my attitude on this for taking a particular side. It's not the case. And I'll say two things. First of all, just so everybody, the listeners know know i was always raised by my father's attitude which was there's there's no way to make somebody gay my father didn't care how many gay people i hung out with i i let my kids hang out with anybody gay or trans but i've always just had that it's like this is this is new york city it's not that it's baked into their d or postnatal environment. And I don't have anything to do with it.

Who they are. And there's nothing I can do about it. Now, Brian's bringing data that says, well, you know, it may be more complex than that. And I'm interested in that. But here's what I want to say. Zooming out. I understand exactly why this touches an emotional chord to you. and I imagine Brian does as well, which is that you tell me if I'm wrong. That this kind of information.

Wrong or right in the hands of the people who would do your community harm is is very dangerous and can cause a lot of suffering. I also just think it's poor science. If people think, well, let's just take to the sake of argument that it's not poor science. It is, though. Okay, but you don't know that. We do know. No, no, we don't know that. I don't run this by any.

No, no, we don't know that. No more than we know the truth about other. You want me to line up a panel of people who will just deconstruct this, but I can line up another panel. Just, just do it. It's analogous to the conversation about race and, and IQ. We don't know these things. They're very, very emotional and they're very, very emotional because they can do a lot of harm to communities that have

already suffered a lot of bigotry and harm i get that i imagine you get that too brian right you understand yeah i think he's pretty low fucks given on that one no he's okay with people being converted to right-handedness no no and and but but as he says so like i am left-handed i wouldn't like to have been done, but it doesn't mean it can't be done. Okay. But there are subjects like this which are very, very fraught, which maybe the world would be better off if they never studied them. But that's not the way the world works. Oh, I love studying.

People who have curious minds look into these things? And I've always been torn about this kind of thing, especially this, I think, is even less than the race and IQ thing, which I really like. I read Charles Murray's recent book and I and I and I really, really rejected it. And I said, my God, this is really dangerous, in my opinion, what he's writing, it didn't even, it didn't even seem correct to me, but in the wrong hands, it could be catastrophic. If everybody starts thinking that they can convert gays, even if that's not what Brian's saying, but if people, if that's no, but if that's the way it filters down into a less sophisticated mind, I understand why this is something you want to fight against in his article he likens it to mormonism like if a mormon moves in next door and is cordial to you and brings over a pie you might convert to mormonism well you want to answer

that right yeah i did say that and it's a reasonable idea. No, like sexuality and choice of spiritual practice are not the same. So I didn't I didn't. And anyone would be able to see the distinction. So, Maren, I didn't do something on this podcast that I really should have done. I've always thought about doing it and we should do it in the future, which is that I should have had you send to Brian in advance, the data that you wanted to refer to. I agree. And him sent to you. Look again, just to go back to what I actually said. Yeah. Here's what I said. Some people will never become Mormon, no matter how hard you try to convert them. Other people are very likely to become Mormon, even if you don't

try at all. And then there's some people in the middle who are persuadable. And when we look at the data on sexual orientation, it looks very much like that. Some people are going to be gay no matter what. Some are not going to be gay no matter what. Other people are persuadable. Otherwise-

The very idea that you can learn to love sucking dick is the most bisexual thing I've ever heard. I want to ask you a question about that. Is it different for men? Yeah, 70 with a bisexuality over the course of five generations is multiplied by a factor of 75 i think maron just uh just implied that brian might have bisexual if you could be convinced that oh wow this dick tastes great you're kind of by my friend by the way like is there is there a man in i i hold on it seems like you just aren't listening to me i said there's there's three categories uh-huh people

who wouldn't be gay that would be gay no matter what yeah people will not be gay no matter what and they're people in between is that wrong uh but i think what you're also saying is it wrong huh we're not there no no no that's what you do. What he has said so far, that there are people who, no matter what, that there are people who are no matter what, gay or straight, wouldn't partake in the other one. And then there's a group of people who fall in the middle, right? And most research about sexuality, people's appetites and predilections run a very wide spectrum.

A wider spectrum. Brian, can I ask you if it's possible, given your research, is it or your your knowledge, is it possible that all that the difference in numbers, that there's fact that there's more people identifying as gay today is entirely because they're more comfortable expressing it? Is that a possibility in your estimation it is possible absolutely and i say that in the piece it just seems that the change is too large for that to be the whole story yeah no you could you called the number of bisexuals shocking yeah multiply multiplying by a factor of 75 over the course of a few generations doesn't that surprise you well yeah it actually just just to clear so when you when you use the word shocking is there any connotation to that other than it's a startling statistical no of course not it's we got five generations we got traditionalists these are people who were born before 1946 so for them we've got 0.2 percent saying they're

bisexual generation z this is laughable 97 2003 we've got there we got 15 percent that's 75 times the rate but my sense is my gut is it that this is because people are more comfortable saying it it's not just comfortable it's safe that's my gut safe it's i don't access to help 15 about that all right so the social stigma against bisexuality has been less than that against being gay or lesbian. Will you agree with that? It depends on where you look, but let me offer this. Up until today, we still say MSM, right? We generally, in scientific literature, it's it's the it's men who have sex with them. Right. As in. So we it's literally we're not doing like our research around bisexuality is baby at this point in in terms of like we haven't done a lot of research on bisexuality. So putting that on, you know, to one side, we've generally looked at it as like men who have sex with men.

And that's like where we start to look at the data. So we don't have a lot of research around bisexuality. And it would be great if you acknowledge that in your in your article. But then the other thing is that a person who is bisexual in a climate where it is unsafe to be, you know, homosexual or bisexual. And for the record, we still have 15 percent of this country that feels that that it should be illegal. The current polls say that 15 percent of this country thinks that. Yeah, but I think I think it's off. I mean, it's not. No, I think I think it's unfair to bring that up and to bring that to bear in a conversation about his article. But hear this, because that but that because that animates why you're sensitive to this.

No, it's not a criticism of his article. Noam, stop talking. Here's the thing. If a person is bisexual and they have the option, right? There's the optionality of being with a male or a female, or being with someone of the same sex or someone of the opposite sex. And there are pressures against them to express their same sex desires. If they are less socially accepted, if there's pushback, if they're less likely to receive

health care, little things. Yeah, we all that person is almost certainly not going to express their bisexual side. They run, they run all. Everybody in this conversation has acknowledged, including Brian, that this could possibly be simply the end of because it's not stigmatized anymore. But he's also not acknowledging it. But Brian thinks that the number has changed by a factor of such a high number. Yes. That that strains his his ability to zero to 12 percent is a huge jump. Brian wants to say something.

So here's what's really puzzling so if you get if you take a look at the numbers you'll see that 0.4 of the oldest generation identifies as gay 2.5 of the youngest generation so it's multiplying by about six times but for bisexuality is multiplying by 75 times even though the stigma against gays was definitely a lot stronger back in the earlier period. So why is it that we don't see that there's a much larger increase in gay identity rather than bisexual identity? Maybe bisexual being bisexual is very, very is more common than we ever thought. And now and now all those people have decided that, you know what, I can come out. It's safe now. The problem is that in both cases, we're talking about some people suppressing their true identity

or hiding it because of stigma. And if the stigma was much less than you would expect that releasing the stigma would lead to a much smaller percentage change. It's not a question of the percentage. Why would we think that is? It's a question of the ratios. So, again, we're multiplying bisexual identity by a factor of 75 versus gay identity by a factor of 6. That's weird. I just want to say a couple things. First of all, in my experience,

I don't know if the data shows this, women are different than men. I had a girlfriend one time who had been in a gay relationship before our relationship. And she was quite resentful of the woman that she had the gay relationship with because she felt like she convinced her to be gay for a while. She, and she was quite resentful of the woman that she had the gay relationship with because she felt like she convinced her to be gay for a while. She said,

I was never gay. And somehow she convinced me to be gay and I'll never be gay again. That's, that's a story you don't really hear. I was tricked into eating pussy once too. And it's a story you don't really hear from men. And even somebody else I know who's clearly not gay, get got drunk and made out with a girl.

One time women, they just, that seems to seems to you no if we were on x together we'd have fun is there data about that with women being more open to it it looks like women's sexual orientation is more flexible and we can see that again in the data where for let's see the data is piss poor um and i don't see why we need to go after the people of gallup i think they did a very good job i don't know you you grabbed one poll from gallup you want more gallup can i introduce by the way he might be had something to say wait everybody just wait all right let him answer let him yeah so let's see what we've got is that women have now tripled the bisexual identification rate of men. So again, it seems like there's at least a lot more flexibility there, right? And there's something else that – I don't know how to put it, but – And actually, the lesbian identity rate has increased by a factor of 20 over these five generations, whereas for gay men, only six.

Can you chart? And this I don't know. And then I'll be finished with this. There's something else about sexuality, which clearly exists, which I don't know how it fits into the labeling of somebody as gay or straight. So, for instance, men in prison will get fully into having gay sex. People will have sex with animals. They're not

attracted to animals. You don't know that? You don't know their lives? I don't think they're born with... But it's true that people will get horny and have sex with animals. Are we seriously turning this into sheep fucking? I absolutely am because I'm making the point that just because someone's the Mormonism,

but I really am making that point. What I'm saying is that just because somebody in a particular gets in a habit somehow of having sex with the, with the sheep, which is common in the world, right? Doesn't mean that they're not a straight man. I don't, I know what I'm saying.

I've had sex with tons of straight men. Actually, maybe not. Who knows? Oh, no. It doesn't necessarily mean. They could absolutely be bestial. What I'm saying is that people can have sex. I mean, I guess the only way to put it is that

just there's being attracted to the same sex, and then there could also be just not having enough aversion to having sex, same sex, sex. That's that you turn it down at a moment when you feel like having sex.

So how many people who just like they say, can you breathe for a second? And think, think about what I'm saying. You are sucking the air out of the room with this. What I'm saying is that

if I have sex with a man, it could be that I'm attracted to men or it could just be that it feels awesome that I don't give a shit. I just want to have sex with something. Sure. That sounds pretty fucking bisexual to me. Well, that's I don't know if that's really bisexual. Hooker, it is like the, you know, everything everything simple ability to practice and and enjoy some aspect of sex with both party with both sexes i have sex with a blow-up doll does that mean i'm attracted yes you are yes it does yes it does i i'm with i'm with it has a dick i'm with mary on

may run on this i believe if you can have sex uh if you can have sex with somebody, you have to have some level of attraction to that individual. I'd like to, if I may, introduce Justin McKinney. Speaking of gay. I'm so sorry. Poor thing is so not gay.

I don't know what I walked into, but my wife still questions whether I could be gay. That has come up. Like I've been with her for 27 years. You have very good skin. Yeah. Justin McKinney. I don't know if it's because of that, but she she she did.

She watched one of those 2020s. Someone had a double life. She's like, I don't know. You know, I saw this thing. Someone had a double life. He had a family, but he was gay. I'm like, you got to go there. Like paranoid, paranoid.

So before we leave this subject, and I wouldn't mind. I wouldn't mind revisiting it after you send the data. Brian is a true glutton for punishment. But I do want to say that as far as I understand, Brian, and I'm not an expert on him, he comes from a libertarian wing of thought. And I think it would be a calumny for you to in any way imply that where he's coming from is evidence of his own personal and without a doubt, he is representing a certain conservative voice that he feels is being otherwise stifled. OK, so let him let us speak up for him. There is zero chance of that. Let him let him without interruption, because it's important in today's day and age. Allow him to do that. Slant is so biased. Jesus Christ, a competition. Let him without interruption, because it's important in today's day and age. Allow him to do that.

His slant is so biased. Jesus Christ, Mehran. Let him just say what he wants about that thing. And no one will want. Go ahead. So the honest answer is I was just curious about this. I had written about this in my other book on human genetics. I read something on Wikipedia that was clearly wrong. And I just said, let's go and look at the data and talk about it.

That's not something most people do. I agree. But that i do merit marion specific issues i get curious about them i want to talk about the numbers and like a lot of what i do is specifically say let's just not talk about any of the other distracting issues let's stay laser-like focused on this issue at hand and not get upset because i want to get to the truth. It's so ridiculous to not include gay rights in your. Mehran, that's not how I roll. Brian acknowledged it is Brian. Brian acknowledged the possibility that the differences we're seeing statistically in the number of people identifying as gay and bisexual is simply because they're more comfortable identifying that way. Do you acknowledge the possibility, the possibility that one's sexuality can change because of society. Is that a possibility in your mind?

Is there a possibility that one's sexuality can change? Yes. Is there a possibility that society can influence your sexuality? Is that possible? Can I ask? I hate to answer a question. You don't answer any questions. No, no, no.

Hooker, I've been so upfront. And then we've got gotta get to Justin. Do you think, like, that if you were just force-fed chocolate ice cream, and you fucking hate chocolate ice cream, but you just kept being force-fed chocolate ice cream, which is absolutely not what's happening with homosexuals. I wish.

I was being force-fed dicks. I wish. But if that were the case, could you eventually be like, you know what? It won over of my vanilla. My gut, my vanilla world. My gut is no, but I'm open to a statistic saying otherwise. Justin McKinney is a why you booked me is a comic living in New Hampshire, New Hampshire. He comes from me and he's a big star there.

I think I'm told you're a big star. I literally got sent today lawn signs at a four-way stop for my upcoming show this week in Boltonboro, New Hampshire. Like, I'm on lawn signs. You know what they are, right? You mean like signs on the lawn? They look like you're running for office. Yeah, I know.

It's my face. And it's like, yeah, so that's the kind of stuff that's going on. How big a theater. You're really missing out. Big bisexual population up there. I believe you mean. Yeah. How big a theater can you're really missing out. Big bisexual population up there. I believe you mean. Yeah. How big a theater can you fill up in New Hampshire?

I do. The biggest one I do is 1,300 seats. And you can fill that on your. I can fill that. Yeah. And then there's other ones, 900 seat theaters. I'll do a couple shows. And actually, the Portsmouth Music Hall, I do four shows a year back four nights in a row.

And that's 900 seats. Can I just add that selling out 1,300 seats in New Hampshire is real. I can't do the math. It's different than selling out 1,300 seats in New York City. And selling out 1,300 seats in New York City is quite an accomplishment. So that's serious. You're a true skilled comedian. I've been back there for a while working it,. It's a lot of creating new material every year.

There's a year in review I do in Portsmouth where I built it to four sold out shows. Every year it's a new show. It's a ton of work, but that's why they'll come back because I keep coming up with new material. It's a tough bed. I'm not going to lie. I made this bed in a minute, but I am stressed as shit. I don't

sleep nights. I panic. Anxiety. I get all kinds of when you find yourself not reality. I get it. No, I find yourself not driving right into a man's mouth. Are you thinking about men? No. OK, I know. And it's funny because not to go back to what you guys are talking about.

But I have a lot of that. Well, the night I met my wife, she was at a comedy club in Massachusetts and she was with her gay friend, Danny. And they were debating whether or not i was straight or gay and he swore i was gay for the longest time he's totally gay and it's like that's how our relationship started i'm from boston by the way oh okay yeah now what about yourself do you think comes across as gay mannerisms i think that's what i have mannerisms i don't know I don't know. I mean, it's like being expressive and on stage in and of itself because men are sort of like marked by reticence. Right. Like a lot of manhood and masculinity is based on how little you express. Right. Your Clint Eastwoodness. So being a comedian, being on stage, being expressive and flamboyant, that is right off the bat. are like is he a fag right so there's that and then looking good keeping it tight and i think this guy danny too he's you know how do i say this like he you know when he meets he thinks a lot of men are gay and they just don't come out i think there's a lot of that going on right like you know do you do that oh i mean you meet a man

you go he's straight but he's totally gay and comedians who everyone thinks are straight. Let's name them. Let's name one. I'll tell you after. Dan Natter. Justin. Yeah, sorry. Can I talk briefly about the investments that you have, imprudent investments that you've made, or do you not want me to discuss? Let's talk about it because my story is a sad one.

Financial investments? High comedy, yeah. We have an economist here. About 20 years ago, Justin was red hot he was a young up-and-coming comedian he had a point he was just kind of ex-cop from maine with kind of this down home maine kind of quirkiness to him and the industry fell in love and offered him he made i don't know half a million dollars in development deals right something like that whatever it was holy shit more than that and as a young, as a 20-something.

Yes. Had he done the right thing, he could have probably been set for life. Instead, somebody from a comedy club suggested he invest it all in some penny stock or something. He lost every goddamn cent. Is this true? This is true. My story is a sad one. Fuck.

So when I came to New York in the late 90eties, I got in at every club right, right down to the cellar. I passed here. I was, I was, I was in every other club. So I hardly ever came downtown because I was up at Dangerfields and Caroline and the strip. All I passed at every club. I got an agent. I got the deals so confident. I could remember all the managers, Dave Becky, Rory Rose garden, Barry cats, Bruce Hills. They all took me to lunch. All wanted to be managed. Me, my agent in LA, Ruth Anzaconda said, you don't need a Hills. They all took me to lunch, all wanted to manage me. My agent in L.A., Ruth Anciconda, said, you don't need a manager. You'll save money.

I'm going to get you a deal. So I'm like, all right. So I said, no, no, no. Long story short, all that money, a waiter at Dangerfields Comedy Club was a part-time stockbroker. I slowly gave him 10 grand at first. He made it 20. I gave him 30. He made it 60. I gave him 80. He made it 20. Now I gave him 30. He made it 60. I gave him 80. He made

it 160. I had close to 800,000 on paper in 2000. When it all crashed, I didn't realize I owed capital gains from the stocks he was selling. So I had 100 in cash. I go, oh, that's being smart. I had another 100 mutual funds. They were tech funds. But anyway, lost it all. I ended up with $10,000. So on my move to LA, 2001, January, 2001. But just how did you lose it all? I mean, you sold, I mean, you went down to, you actually had stocks that went down to zero? Yes. Yes. They were going down to nothing. It was all the dot-com stuff. I mean, AOL was my best stock. And that was, if you remember AOL, like that, I mean, that was, that was garbage. So I knew nothing about it. My dad at the time was a homeless alcoholic. So my dad was like, why didn't you ask me what to do with the money?

I'm like, you were living under a bridge, right? So I had no one to ask really didn't know what to do. Didn't buy real estate, which would have been just if I would have bought my two and a half family in Astoria. I talked to the landlord about buying it. And I just didn't pull the trigger because. Or just index funds. Index funds. If I was just, I was a complete moron. Well, I had a hundred grand with Charles Schwab, but that's what I had to take out to pay the IRS because I owed them in capital gains.

So cut to here I am at the top of the world, confident. Everything was going great. I moved to L.A. in 01. I was so depressed. Like I squandered. My accountant said there are people jumping out of buildings who didn't. I haven't seen this. This is the worst case I've seen.

So when I got the Tonight Show with Leno in 02, I was so depressed when I did it. I can't even watch it. It went okay. He had me back a second time two years later. But I was so depressed. Here I am in L.A. walking around. My whole plan just got blown up. So I clawed and clawed back by like 06, just as I started to come out.

My wife's like, I want to be back in New England. So I moved back to New Hampshire in 06. So just as I started, so that's where I've been. I've been back in 06, had bought a house. The place I bought in 06 in New Hampshire was the same price I could have bought my two and a half family in Astoria. Sure. And I had the money. I could have bought it cash.

I could have rented it to comedians. I would have been, you know, so anyway. So, yeah, so I think people, you know, didn't like I got the deals. All this guy got all this deal money. But knowing that I lost it all, I hope I made some friends back. You know, because it's ruined my life to this day. Me being here now, me calling Dan and Perry Allen, being like, hey, can I get on this podcast?

I mean, me coming back to the city after 20 years ago, I left and I was like, it's just mind boggling. Let me see if this makes you feel any better. Brian, you're an economist. I've always wondered, and I heard someone else mention it recently, if economists are so smart, how come they don't make a fortune in investments?

The main thing that economists who study financial markets will tell you is that they know how to avoid wasting their money on managers who don't know very much. The basic model of the stock market comes down to this. If it was obvious what the stock market was going to do, that people would have already invested on the basis of that and moved it to where it's going to be anyway. So yeah the main thing that you know that you can really learn from studying it is that you shouldn't pay someone who claims to see the future a pile of money for what he knows because otherwise he would have already invested and gotten rich himself oh shit can i tell you a quick story just a quick story and then i'll about investing i had a fight with

my you know the guy who handles my money. I don't know if he's a broker or whatever he is. I don't want to say the firm. And it was when COVID first hit and the market just crashed. And I called him. I said, listen, I want to put a big amount of money, like for me, I want to put all this money into an index fund today. And he's like, well, no, I think you should dollar cost average, you know, split it out over. And I said, I say, why would I dollar cost average?

The market just dropped like almost 20 percent or something. He said, well, it's wiser. And I said to him, I said, it's like if you're playing blackjack, of course you play the odds. But if you're able to count cards, the odds have changed. The market has crashed by 15 or 20 percent. I'm counting cards here. I know my odds have changed. The market has crashed by 15 or 20%. I'm counting cards here. I know my odds have changed. He said it can go down further.

I said, I don't care if it goes down further. It's going to definitely come way back up. And this guy fought tooth and nail to talk me out of it. Did you listen to him? No. I put it all in SPY, an index fund.

Why do you even have this guy? You can do this yourself very easily. I put it all in, in, in, uh, SPYS, you know, uh, an index fund. Yeah. Why do you even have this guy? You can do this yourself very easily. Well, and, and, and of course it, it, it's doubled since then. And the one thing is fair to say is that the stock market over the long term always gets higher. Well, especially, but if you, and, and my new theory on, on investing is simply because when you get old enough, you see this every so often in your life, the market

has a thing where it drops by like 10 or 15%. Just wait for those days and go all in. Don't worry if it goes down further and then don't invest the rest of the time. That's my... But by all in, you mean all in

on a diverse portfolio. Not all in on... On Apple. Not all in on Apple. On Toys R Us. Okay, you wanted to say something. Also, you want to plug you have a special. That's really not important. Why? No, I'm kidding.

It's coming out September 1st. On YouTube, yes. My fifth one hour, by the way. I did Comedy Central. I did Prime. This one, I'm going to YouTube. It's what the kids are telling me. It sure is the way to go.

I'm always behind the curve on everything. But here's my point. So this stockbroker, here I am walking around in LA. It's sunny. I'm depressed. I'm like, I don't even want it. I mean, I just want to die in my sleep, right? It's not good.

He reaches out to me and he goes, after two or three years, he goes, hey, Dan here. I won't say his last name. Dan here. I'm like, oh, hey, what's up, man? He goes, hey, want to tell you about a lot of good things going on right now. Got a lot of good leads on some stuff that's really starting to move. I'm like, Dan, I got no more money. I go, you lost over half a million dollars. He goes, yeah, that was a tough stretch. I had a rough two. i moved back in with my grandmother

like i mean this is what he's telling me yeah and i used to say that he went from my my stock broke into my broke stocker because he's showing up at shows i get me to invest money and it's like it's just but brutals to this day natterman when did you move back in with your grandmother no that wasn't the stock no he wasn't no. Well, that's that's a depressing story. But anyway, look, I'm here. Thank you for the opportunity. But he got. Thank you. What possessed you?

Was it to to you had enough money that you could have. You were in really good shape. Was it greed or somebody told me you were desperate to help out your family? And that's exactly I'm surprised you were told that. That's exactly what I was just going to say. And it made perfect sense to me. Yeah, I forgot who said it. But I'm like, why would he be that stupid? he be that stupid no his family was so fucked up yeah

and he and he he was like i can't help my family with 500 000 but i can help my family with 2 million my uh my mom died when i was six my dad was a homeless alcoholic my brothers you know we were all left so my thinking was literally he i'll never forget the broker said to me i'm gonna have you at seven figures is that a million Seven figures by the end of the year. And I was like, so I'm literally looking at it going, wow, I don't this stand up thing doesn't even have to. I could be OK and take care of my family, even if the stand up thing doesn't blow up. So that was kind of the thinking behind it. And it's seven figures to the left of the decimal point.

But this is a sad moment. This is true. I my my brother, my oldest brother, had a child, Colin. And I was like, I remember thinking, I'm going to pay for their college. I wanted to pay for their college. So it's going up. My plan was to pay for their college. Cut to 22 years later. He lives in the Upper West Side. I just had to sleep on his couch in his apartment.

Like I'm crashing with him. Not only did I not pay for his college, but I'm crashing. Actually, he let me have the bedroom. He was out on the couch because he felt bad for me. But that's how that's the reality. But yes, it was. And that made perfect sense. It was not greed. It was just like, I can't help my family with $500,000, but with $2 million, I can. That was the thinking behind it. I always thought

I'd take care of my family. My sister-in-law would say, once Justin makes it in law would say like, oh, once Justin makes it big, well, there's this pressure of once he makes it big, once he makes everyone's been waiting for me to make it big. Like a lot of, you know, you know what it's like, Dan. A lot of pressure. So you seem to be in good spirits now. I'm in good spirits because I got this opportunity today.

Yes. And and you've got a good. I'm so sorry that I like sucked the air out of it. So, so I, I had,

Modi, by the way, would have taken that money, put it into real estate and he would be, should have talked to Modi. I know Modi. Yes.

We just, nevermind. I, I'd always wanted to have a podcast called the third rail. Uh huh. I don't know

if it's been taken already where, where we would actually only discuss these issues that, um, are volatile, are volatile and emotional and they're not allowed to talk about. You might run out after a few episodes, though. Maybe. No.

And I would like to do shows like that, including maybe to revisit the sexuality show. I totally would. Maybe it's to revisit the sexuality issue. But we have to figure out ground rules to run it, including, I think, an exchange of sources and data prior to the show. Because one of the things that happens is that people just – it happens on Rogan all the time. They just throw up, whoa, did you see that study, blah, blah, blah, blah, and it may or may not be valid. I really do. My background really is in public health and public health. Like I didn't come here with with like Trumpy and pull it out of my ass dog shit. I have to. I have a show for some reason. We're doing a 6 p.m. show tonight. I don't know why. For the money. No, I know we did 6 p.m. shows on Wednesday.

So I have to be on stage. This is a special thing that the. So can we wrap it up? Brian, I hope you enjoyed a discussion with Justin, even though... It's a little sad. I'm sorry. You might feel better

about yourself. No, it was actually... It's not sad. It's a triumph. So let me just say... You pulled through. In conclusion, Brian, the only person

who I heard a negative word about your set from was Mehran. That is the God's honest truth. Oh, you should have said it back with the comics. No, no, that's not true because I spoke to her and I spoke to Liz and I watched the video.

You spoke to Liz? Yes, I did. And she lied to you? Maybe she lied to you. No, I can show you everything. So, you know, if you have the balls to do it again, you know, please feel free. And I would like to then maybe sit down and have a coffee in person

it'd be lovely a coffee with you and mayron and uh try to um see each other face to face because that always seems to me it does work better that always seems to melt uh uh issues like this uh i think everybody here is of good intentions and i don't think there's any bigots among us, which is a important thing. Mehran was super cool on Comedy Night. Put me at ease. And I was going to say we may not disagree. We may not agree about this. Actually, I think we do

agree. I think that you hold my position. I think that you just don't want to. There's something about what I've said. It doesn't seem like he holds your position mayron is fairly convinced and not finish good good well i have to have somebody has to corral these go ahead brian finish your thought i was saying this is not a case of we may disagree i think mayron and i actually in fact agree there's something about the tone of what i said that he doesn't like but in terms terms of the substance, I think we agree.

Well, it seems to me Mehran is convinced that there is absolutely no way that sexuality is determined from birth. I don't trust you. Mehran, this is how gay people are, right? Oh, eat shit, Noah. Please. My position is is oh my position is is i'm uh i i you know i don't think we've solved the mystery today i think sexuality might be determined from birth it might

not be but if anyone wants to try being bi with me i mean the mouth is open um i'll stick my neck out and say we have the best evidence we're ever going to get on this just from identical twins are not identical in their sexual orientation. Okay. I have one question. We don't have one. We'll continue. All the way from Israel. I don't like when people continue without me, but you have to.

Justin's a special. I just want to make sure we get the proper plug coming out September 1st, 8 p.m. on YouTube, my YouTube channel on his YouTube channel. I will be like my wife. Continue the discussion as long as you wish. I think it's a little disrespectful. Ha!

Have a great show, Dan. Bye-bye. Disrespectful is taking a spot. So go ahead, Perry. I'll say what you want to say. Then we'll wrap it up. I just wanted to ask you if you're sure that the woman you were talking about became a lesbian before she was with you or after. As a direct result. I knew you were. I knew there was.

I was going to take a hit for that. I can introduce you to her. We're still friends today. All right. Anybody anybody else want to say anything? No, I honestly I'm I'm really grateful and for the opportunity to have this conversation. And Brian, I think it was super cool that

you showed up and you were like able to participate in this because I really was coming in with I came in hot this but this is not over. That was the man I want to see it's who I am you motherfucker I would love to have this again and over coffee and tickling

light tickling all right everybody Brian you're a hell of a sport a hell of a sport and a ballsy guy honestly thank you very much, everybody. Good night. Good night.

Good job.