The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Moumen al-Natour. LIVE from Gaza: Hunger, Torture, and Hope — We Want Peace, Not Hamas

Episode Date: October 23, 2025

A Live Interview from Inside Gaza. In this exclusive Live From the Table conversation, we speak directly with Moumen Al-Natour, the Gazan lawyer and founder of the We Want to Live movement. Al-Natour describes daily life under Hamas rule, the corruption of aid, hunger during the war, and his escape from repeated torture. An unfiltered account of courage, suffering, and the fight for a peaceful future.

Okay. Are we ready to go? Ready, yeah. Yalla, y'allel. Welcome to Live From the Table, the official podcast for the world famous comedy seller. I'm Periel, the producer of the show. I'm here, of course, with a host of the show, Noam Dwarman, the owner of the world famous comedy seller. And Hatem Al-Gabair, who is the host of Live from... Can you say your name properly?

We're trying to say... Gap. Yeah. Thank you, though, for trying. Go ahead, for you want to do this? The host of Live from America podcast and our very dear friend. And our guest today is Mohman Al Natur, a lawyer from Gaza. He's the founder of the 2019 We Want to Live Movement, a former political prisoner of Hamas and the president of the Palestinian Youth for Development.

He is also the author of the recent column from the World Warhol, Street, Wall Street Journal, Free Gaza's Palestinians from Hamas. And he's joining us today from the Gaza Strip. Thank you very much for joining us. And we also have Ahed al-Hindi, who is an economist by training. He is going to be translating for us today. And he also devised a program for Syrian artist to use 3D modeling techniques to build prosthetics for their children, for fellow citizens, excuse me, who had been wounded in the war. He's an active voice for Arab development and reform and a frequent guest on pan-Arab satellite channels.

Thank you very much for joining us as well. Welcome to both of you. We really appreciate you guys coming on the show to discuss this most serious of topics we don't often get to hear or almost ever, I can't remember, you know, actually speak to somebody who's in Gaza who can tell us first time what's going on.

Mokman, let me just ask you, do you speak, like, do you understand my English generally, or is everything have to go through the translation? You're going to say all right? No, he needs a translator. Yeah, but he understands a little bit, right? So just from my own, you know,

perception of what's going on. Okay, so before we get into the specifics, Of course, whenever we interview somebody, Palestinian or Arabic, who is going to take a position that is considered controversial, people will always immediately wonder about him, what are his political views, where is he coming from? So let me just ask as a matter of background. What, Malkman, what were your general views about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict prior to October 7th? Were you a believer in a two-state solution, river to the sea, whatever it is. Tell us a little bit.

So before October 7th, we did not discuss these greater issues about greater solution. But me, on a personal level, I believed in a two-state solution, one-state solution where Israeli Jews and Arabs can leave together side by side. or the other, either a two-state solution or what, yeah. And also, can you tell us a little bit about what was life like in Gaza before October 7th? We've heard about an open-air prison, a concentration camp, food insecurity. In America, we don't really know what we were supposed to believe and what we're not to believe. So give us an overview of the average Palestinian's life in Gaza before October 7.

America, we don't know how much of how it wasa in Gaza before 7th of October, when we talk about food and security in general, it was everything was available, food and drink. But when you talk about the unemployment, it was very high, and that due to a fact that most of the job opportunities, Gaza were taken by people who are connected to Hamas and also all the money of aids and grants that used to come to Gaza, the first beneficiaries were people who are Hamas and people who are close to Hamas.

A few more questions. That is the means by the amin and amin in the Hamas provide the security and stability for their supporters, but when you come and criticize Hamas from outside, you will be persecuted. Me personally, on a personal level, I was jailed and tortured for over more than 20 times by Hamas, just for expressing my thought. We're going to ask about that. Just one or two more, just as the background.

Israel had a very harsh blockade of Gaza, goods going in and out, people going in and out. was the perception of the average Ghazin that this was a kind of Israeli sadism or cruelty or was there so do they recognize or do you recognize that in some way this was a response to Hamas rockets and things like that where do they do they a lot blame to one the other or both Israel Most of the people that are the overwhelming population in Gaza

they care about their own interest like the freedom to move freedom to go from area to area without have to pay a bribery for people on the border crossing while for me

I used to think that the political situation is the reflection of the bad situation that the people are suffering from all the attention between Hamas and Israel all the military offensive between Hamas and Israel has influenced heavily the situation of the people and the freedom of movement of goods and people inside Gaza's true.

Before October 7th, when the political situation was calm, many workers from Gaza, they were able to go to Israel and work in Israel, and that really helped a lot to revive the economy and bring more opportunities and more money to Gaza. What is the Israeli policy that you think is the most unwise? In fact that she is sierraili, so the unwise policy, the most unwise policy, is that treating Gaza that all Gaza is Hamas

and treating Hamas as it is Gaza. In Gaza, the people are pretty diverse. There are those who are leftist liberals. There are people who are supporters. Fathah, who are people who are like me, not politically a member of any party. There are people who really love peace and want peace with all countries, including Israel. So you cannot treat everybody with the same rigid behavior that Israel does. This is why I called from early January, 2024, for safe zones in Gaza,

where civilians can go and leave and be separated from Hamas. So we're almost to the present. On October 7th, we saw video, for instance, they had this young Israeli Shani Luke on the back of a pickup truck, and we saw video of the people in the town coming out and cheering. And I think this is along the lines of what he was saying. Is that an inaccurate perception of how people felt behind closed doors where people feeling the opposite way, help us to interpret as Americans what we're seeing in the news? How many people did you see in this video?

10, 100, 1,000, there are 2 million gazins that were leaving and sleeping in their house like I was. At 6 a.m., I was sleeping in my house, and then I heard the sounds, and I thought it's probably some rocket trials, or it's probably an Israeli is doing some sort of small military incursion. Most of cousins were like me. A lot of them, they even sleep late during the day, because there is no work. in Gaza, no job opportunity. So we're not aware. You cannot be judging all Gazans by what tens or hundreds have done.

And I think that the propaganda of Hamas was able to fool all the American media and fool all the Western media to believe that all Gazans are praising and are celebrating what Hamas did. Yeah, just to tell him, I'm trying to ask the questions in a neutral way and he shouldn't interpret it, you know, as my accusation. No, he understands. He's used to that. Okay, okay, okay, okay. I'll say he'll, he's not

his way, he's talking to him, in a way heading, so you tell him, you're not a much way. Now, tell us, let's get to the war. Well, just as a general question, well, actually, no, sorry. So, when

the war began, we noticed that Hamas, or we were, we were, it was reported in the American papers, that Hamas told the citizens to stay in place rather than to evacuate to a place where they might be safer. Is that true?

And what would be the consequences of trying to evacuate for the Palestinians? That's true. I saw this personally. I used to live in area Al-Shape, which translates as beach in Gaza. And when the October 7th, happened, everything became like a tornado. I was walking in the street, and then I saw one of Al-Qasan brigade members of security, and he told us, advised us to stay in our house,

and he said that these areas are very safe, and there is nothing to scare you. But from watching the Israeli media, from understanding the situation and the consequences that could happen because of the crime of October 7, I decided to flee and I went to the areas that was announced as safe by the IDF. Yeah, can I ask a couple of questions just quick. A moment, I hope you stay safe and I hope your family is okay. Can you tell us about, one, the breakdown of the Gaza society

because the understanding here that Hamas controlled everything. So what's the percentage of Hamas? How much power do they really have in controlling everything is it a dictatorship that you can't go or do anything without them saying and that's one and the other thing that a lot of

accusation that here that they were elected ask it one at a time because it's the same yeah and the second one that they were elected I don't really have an exact figure I don't really have an exact figure but as if we look at before the war Hamas used to have as foot soldiers

and people who work on the government, about 70,000. And if we add to them their family members, we are speaking probably about 250,000 of Gazans. And as we said before, Gaza has more than two millions. Fattah has a lot of support inside Gaza, also the left, and also people who were born in the 90s, just like me, we did not see ourselves fitting in any of these traditional political groups.

So I created my own movement and there are thousands of people who are on the same side with me and they don't see themselves fitting in any of the revolutionary movements that exist in Gaza. And now the second part about the election. Hamas, people say won the election. That's true, but it was a general election where people all over Gaza and also the West Bank they voted. And in some areas they won, in some areas they lost. But what happened is that during that period of time, Hamas was able to recruit before a lot of foot soldiers,

people with arms, that they were able to carry a coup d'etat in two days and toppled the Palestinian authorities there. But during the election back then, inside the Gaza Strip, and Khan Yunus Fattah got more votes, and Jabalya Fethah got more votes. But what made Hamas able to control, every single thing, in an absolute way, was the coup d'etat that they carried.

By Iran, he said as well, yeah. With the help of foreign countries, including Iran, he named Iran. I have two more questions about the war, and then I want to spend the rest of the time talking about Mahmoud and his own personal story. Because, just to say, in America, we have no access to information that we can trust.

So, for instance, on Twitter, we see both pictures of what looks to be people starving, struggling to eat. And at the same time, on the same day, you'll see a picture of a video of a restaurant with food and pizza and people looking to be doing well. And we don't know what's true. So what, at its worst, how has the food situation been for everyday people? during this war. In America, during the war after January,

24, people in the north, they decided not to move. They stayed in the north. They were not used to the war as much as we did. And for that, for a period of time, they had no food in the north. And if there are food, it was really, really expensive.

Like you would buy a bag of, buy a bag of flour of bread that is enough only for a week in $1,500 and then later we start to see more products in the market when

Hamas was controlling the AIDS. Hamas used to resell the aid. We could go to the market and buy some of the products, but it was really not affordable. And also as to speak about opening restaurants and coffee shops, that happened.

And as you know, war profiteers always can accumulate money and open restaurants, but who can go there? Like, me personally, I cannot go and pay the fees for these restaurants and coffee shops. Was he going hungry at various times? Have you got in the war? Have there, fat, you know, chaf was not, for example. Yes, at a period of time, for sure, I got really hungry, and I lost weight. I was at the period of time 65 kilograms. Now I'm much

better and I think when that period of time stopped the starvation, we got better and now but my situation is much better. He knows people who starve to death? Do you know who died from the Jew? Chasin. No,

personally, no. Personally And last question about the war and that's it. In general, what is this what your feelings about the way Israel conducted the war so many people died

some of these people you will blame Israel for some some of these people you'll blame Hamas for some of the people you may think their lives could have been avoided if Israel had had more responsible ways

of fighting what's your overall view of Israel's conduct What do you, in a way you in the same in the warreysa in this Harb? What is it, of course, it's of course, it's Luddibor.

What happened in October 7 was really brutal, and I was against it from the first day it happened. But Israel should have created same zones where civilians can go and get to have access to AIDS and medication and security. And those who want to travel, travel, it's better than getting Hamas to blend with the civilians. The Israelis told us to go to Mawesi area.

I went to Mawesi area. When I arrived there, I saw Hamas arriving there for me. There were Hamas members there, and right away we feel, where can we go? We go to a coffee shop, use internet connection, you see a Hamas member sitting next to you. So they should have created area, clean areas, where people who are vetted, who are not Hamas, can go and live in peace there. rather than putting all of these civilians' casuality under an asymmetical where all of this high number of casuality of civilians happen. Is vetting possible? Is it possible to identify a Hamas member?

Is there the opportunity to know who, from not Hamas, you can't find out, you know, from the amount, You mean, among the amount of the people are soldiers? It's a lot of a gun that's a slough

with him, or with him, clashenkoff in athm, so, you can't use them with the

, but it's into the people who need to come with the people, so it's the that's

that's right, you know, to know, or you know, or say, how do you know, how you

want you, how you want, you can't you take that the people who are through these manatok, not Hamas. We did distinguish Hamas member

from weapons. They are carrying weapons, handguns on their shoulders and on their west and also the way they look, they dress up. And then I clarified to him that you're asking about the vetting. How would Israel know that people who go to this area are Hamas or not?

He said there should be a way to work with local police where you check on every name that goes in and Israel know all the name of Hamas members. They know all the employees of the government of Gaza who are known as Hamas members.

So this could have been created where you don't allow Hamas to go to these areas and you deal with Hamas by yourself. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You had a question and we're going to go ahead. Yeah, last question for the word. Thank you. I agree with you and I think that they know. My question was

you know, part of your answer, but the human shield part. You know, so a lot of, there's a lot of conception, misconception about the human shield, is it Hamas using people, like, or is it like you said, like, are the people working with Hamas or Hamas forcing people

not to leave, and they have to stay there to secure the Hamas stuff, or the people don't know that there's Hamas tunnels or anything like that there, and they just live in? Like, what's a clarification of the human shield part of the war?

Yes, for example, there could be a tunnel under your house, and you are not aware that there is a tunnel under the house. And in instances where civilians goes during the war to hospitals and schools, one of the incidents of Al-Sifa hospitals where it had civilians for sure, Hamas locked the door. They did not allow the civilians to leave under justification that we don't want you to leave. information or secrets about our operation because Hamas is at Al-Shifah hospital. And civilians could not leave Al-Shifah hospital until the Israeli army they conducted an operation and attacked Al-Shifa hospital. And then civilians were able to leave. This is so fascinating. I have a million questions. Did he see Israeli soldiers behaving, committing war crimes?

Israeline? I've been arraignment with a crime in your have seen men from the beginning when the beginning

of the war I didn't see I always left two areas when the Israeli army used to announce that these areas civilians should go there

so I would not see the Israeli army in my eyes and so I did not see them committing crimes I heard some stories and I think it happens

stories that happens in a area like this in a war areas But yes, I heard stories and did not see in my eyes. All right, you've been, you said in Perry, that you've been tortured many times by Hamas over many years. So tell us now, and maybe you want to take it in small pieces so you can remember what he's saying for the translation.

Tell us about your background, what you've been fighting for, why you were tortured, why didn't they kill you? Give us an overall view. So before I can't I can't I can't Okay So before I started the movement

So before I started The Movement We want to live movement Inside Gaza I used to write posts about Gaza And criticizing the authority there And there was a result

I'm seeing that interaction from the people I created a movement that carry on this goal Kammel Yeah, moment we started

then in March 14, 2019 I co-founded a group We Want to Live movement and Hamas was pretty aggressive reaction of Hamas was really aggressive They were looking for me to arrest me on the streets I was lucky that they had an old photo of me

and a photo when I was like in early 20s and some I changed back then and they could not arrest me from the street come in a moment okay so then then they could not get me

they kidnapped my brother and torture them they want him to tell my whereabouts and then they had they communicated with me and I had to surrender myself they give me an option

that either we keep your brother here torturing him or you surrender yourself and I had to surrender myself So I was promised from them that they would not torture me and they said that just a simple interrogation and we'll interrogate you and then you'll go home. When I was sure that my brother went home, I went to the security of Perales. It was horrible experience.

They tortured me. They hanged me from my hands, handcuffling me, beating me. And sometimes they would hang me from my legs. They stripped me from my clothes and put cold water on me and they start to lash me. I could have lost my life at any time. As usual, they betrayed their promises. So advocacy campaign at that stage used to be helpful. Many organizations, including the Red Cross,

were aware about my arrest and they started to speak about it, and they were aware that I was kidnapped by Hamas. This really protected me. I mean, they torture me, yes, but they would not kill me at that stage. so some more than 20 more than 20 incidents where I was tortured by them they could have been killed

at any moment during the torture but deeply in my heart I was aware I knew I know always that they're going to torture me, were used to that but deep in my heart I was aware I know that they would not kill me as a person who was a graduate and a lawyer

and at the same time during the peace time Hamas did not want to commit such a stupid mistake. Now it's the different situation. Now I'm sure if Hamas catch me, they would shoot me in the head. After the war, I increased my activities being anti-Hamas.

At that stage, I was in Beitlavia, where many countries did not dare to condemn October 7th. I condemned October 7th from inside Gaza and I've been trying to to hide from Hamas since that date.

I was engaged in many activities with organization like CPC Center for Peace Communications and others inside Gaza. But three month ago, my house was raided by Hamas, and they wanted to arrest me this time. And I ran away from home, and I'm hiding in a place since then. Again, if they catch me now, I'm 100%. I know now for sure, I'm very certain

that they are almost about to be defeated. But even when they are really defeated, if I catch me, man, now they would not stop until they put a bullet in my head. What? It would seem that a lone person or part of a small organization would be facing something obviously insurmountable by trying to organize against Hamas and then knowing that you're going to be caught and tortured. What motivated him, why did he think he would accomplish this? What, what fueled such bravery? What, you understand the question? Like, how could he imagine, how could he imagine that what he was going to go through

could be worth what he was going to pay for it? You know, you as a person, or as a group of people, he still, d'Aif, among a mausasasas, a big, like Hamas. So, what is the chagea or what was a young innocent boy at that stage? I did not really know much about politics. I wanted to work, and I wanted my other friends to work, and this is how I dealt with it. And even in prison, when I organized a demonstration,

I thought about it from a legal perspective, according to the law that I studied, you can organize a demonstration, and you can go into the street. And if Hamas met our demands back then, all of us would go home, and everything could have, finished but Hamas is the one who escalated and

they have got me from a place where I was calling for simple rights to a person who's heavily engaged in opposing them and talking about peace between Palestinians and Israeli so it's the stupidity of Hamas how they dealt

with all of their opponents so we moved from being activists to being their enemies I debate this a lot and I say that the majority of the Palestinian people in Ghazin one piece and against Hamas

not the minority. Can you give us numbers if it's actually the majority of the Palestinian people or the minority? Is it a lot of people so now a majority of people after they saw the adventure of Hamas what happened to them they are really against Hamas. Even the support of people who used to support Hamas.

I'm not speaking about the members of Hamas. There are members and there are supporters. These supporters even of Hamas, they want Hamas to exit the scene and leave Gaza. And they want a sustainable peace. They don't want a temporarily peace. What's the point of peace if I want to build my house? And then after 10 years, it gets destroyed.

Now, everybody comes to this conclusion. We need a peace that lasts forever between us and between the Israelis. So we're coming to the most recent Trump proposal of the peace plan as I understand Mahmoud he's very optimistic about the peace plan so can he tell us why he's optimistic and

why he thinks it's going to work you're nothame as much ashert I think it's a good proposal and I think now east of Gaza is totally clean from Hamas we should announce these areas safe zones and get people to move to these areas and announce a technocratic

government in that area where they manage food, AIDS, and I believe that all of us should move there because in this area now the situation is better. It's almost half of Gaza. It's connected to aid and to the world. And you are far away from Hamas and it's militia. And we can really work as Palestinians

and I personally can work on that where we can create our own government and we already have mapped staffs, teacher, police, people from all backgrounds for the day after Hamas. And now it's happening in East of Gaza. And this is why I'm really excited to the Trump proposal.

I think it's really worth to look at. If his best hopes come true, would he say that the war was worth it in the sense that only with this war could it have been accomplished, or does he believe it could have been accomplished in another way?

By the question, if you're if you... It's a lairna, lairna, it's a curse, war is a curse. To be honest, we cannot take Hamas from the scene without

a war. Nobody can degrade Hamas and its arms and its capability without a war, even no Arab countries, no Muslim countries, was ready to engage in disarming Hamas, even not the PA, the PA, they just abandoned us for 18 years. So war is horrible, but sometimes bring these results. I'm going to discontinue, I'm going to let my friends ask the last few questions. I just want to say from the bottom of my heart how thankful I am to you for doing this interview um one of the disconnects psychologically that i notice is that for us in america even though we

we care about the war and we follow the war in some way it's like watching a movie to us that no matter how much empathy we have in our heart we can't really imagine being there we can't really imagine what people are going through and um this is something i struggle with so so to hear directly from somebody who has experienced it is absolutely essential i think even though we can never understand it so i just and and the bravery that you're describing and the reasonableness um i'm moved by um more more reasonable about israel than i would have thought I don't know how to put it when you're suffering when you're hungry it's very difficult to see the force that's responsible in anything but the worst

of lights so only I think a certain person is able to see above that at a more full picture so in every sense I want to thank you very very much you won't be able to to translate this, I guess, but you can give them a gist of it, and then afterwards you'll be able to send him what I said, and then Hatem and Periel might have a few final questions, but thank you, thank you. Yeah. I...

Thank you, thank you. I... I'll back I'll tell you, but I'll give you all right, and when you're going to go, as America, as they're not as they're having to see a film, video, because you, after after after the film, it's going to go to after. Not going to be

he's who he's he'll be thimmon all the thing he's sure he'll he'll have with the other questions.

I just have a couple more question but to a Norm's point I remember we interviewed one of the mothers

and hostages and for both to be a view in this situation and to be such a human in a certain

she was talking about the Ghazen like insane and you talk about it's just like for us and for every

person and Twitter and everybody that pity and fight and they're not even shedding their blood on it and you guys, her and you, to be able to do this, it's beyond, that's why humanity is. So it's incredible. My question is one of the criticism we always get that I think also is the Palestinians don't have a leader. There's no leadership. Nobody's rising and say like, hey, let's take it. Let me do peace. let's take it to the next level

take any of the offers that we got before so what's your thoughts on that why there's no Palestinian leadership or we just don't know them I'm not there's I don't know them I'm not saying there's Nelsso Mandela

not there's... I'm not saying I'm going to talk with you today, there's a new on the saha So I would say that leaders, the time of leaders like Che Guevara and Mandela or Yasser Arafat has gun.

Now you need more leaders with managerial skills in the Gaza and you cannot see that in the PA or in any other groups. I think I wanted, as a person I wanted the PA from the day one

after October 7 to go publicly and condemn the terrorist attack that happened and call on the civilians evacuate and take the leadership. Always kids when they are in a situation like this, they need their father or mother, and the PA failed to be, as they claim, the father of the civilians.

But look from a different angle, look at the youth leaders that emerged recently. I posted many opades, including a recent one just was published yesterday in the Washington Post. The White House retweeted that post, and I spoke exactly about the United States. this issue. I mean, there are new faces in Gaza from the new generation the West people they should talk to them. You're not

going to get peace from these retired politicians the old retired politicians and the Palestinian Authority. Well, look, I hope someday soon there's peace and maybe

both of you could someday come to New York and we could sit down together and have some hummus and as a hathem calls it occupied palestine salad and uh i i've really moved by this before we go i just turn it over to him to say you know anything that he'd like to say that for americans to hear his message what he thinks is the most important thing that he would like everybody to hear said and then we'll say i'll like shahallah shahar all we'll We'll just remember in New York, we'll have a salad of them, we'll say this Salatahoeia, so he'd say, we'll have to eat the

land that's al-Sahliah, and we'll be together. And we'll all together. But, at least, I'll give you the word, that if there's a thing you'd have to say it before you go. Okay. Okay. I'll be allowed the Salta Israeli, it's, no, no, there's a question. All we're at all. I'm going to say, I mean, I'm personally, I'm going to say, you know, Let me, I'm going to say, I'm going, I'm going to ask the American, the people

of the American, the Ume, the Americanian, the United States, the United States, the American, all the United States, the American, I say to them, in Vazza, we need We have a plan, we have a cutta, we have a cuttahue of the work within the council of the we need to

be in the government technocrat to infight to infatheed in it's a lot between us and between our and between our

and between our and among the assyline people, we need to we need to be on the earth to make sure of the council of the same, to make the government of technocrat and I'm

I'd know to be a person of the government to make sure of and to puttas on the earth we've got many of the we can't we can't build me

we can't we'll get a figure also we need to we need to listen to us all not just that we'll not just we'll answer the mackalat

or we'll talk over the Alain. We need to we need to meet, we're to talk, we'll talk about us, we're asking us, we need to get to the same. I want to see you in New York, and I

also, the leader of American, and we're not to talk to the subcuitia and the issue of that. I'd think that to be nearer. Okay, my message to the

Congress, to the President Trump, to the American people, that we in Gaza want peace and we have a plan for that we're working now on a technocrat, a government of technocrats we've done a lot of meetings on the ground with peoples

and I'm ready many people like me are ready that we can build rebuild our homeland and change even the mentality of the people but we want everyone to hear us we don't want also to meet with media as I'm doing and writing

but also meet with leaderships to stress this out and speak about that. Okay, well, thank you very much to both you. How do I say goodbye in Arabic with a proper pronunciation? Ma'a Salama. Ma'a Salama. And by the way, this is the first time that I hear a perfect translation. Usually they translate one thing in Arabic and one thing. Thank you very much.

Yeah, try my best. Thank you. Please be safe. Please be safe. Bye bye. Take, balak, from napsic. Bye, bye. Thank you. Thank you.

Bye. Bye, bye, bye.