The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - New York City, The Migrant Crisis and Congestion Pricing with Ross Barkan

Episode Date: October 6, 2023

Ross Barkan is a contributing writer to the New York Times magazine and a columnist for Crain's. His Substack is called Political Currents.

🎵 🎵 This is Live from the Table, the official podcast of the world-famous comedy cellar coming at you on SiriusXM 99 Raw Dog. And wherever you get your podcasts, we're also on YouTube if you want to look at our beautiful faces. This is Dan Natterman. I'm here with Perel Ashenbrand,

who's looking somewhat non-binary today. More people have been watching on YouTube than listening lately. Okay, well, that's the way things are now. Those are the ones that I do by myself, though, Dan. Okay, that's the voice of Noam Dorman. He's the owner of the world-famous comedy cellar and the ever-expanding world-famous comedy cellar. Noam, I sent you a list of a guest wish list.

Yes. So I just want to know if you approve them okay go ahead quick and and then email us podcast the comedy star.com if you think any of these are good or bad go ahead i'm sure they'll like them all but this one's a long shot i don't know i think i think our our viewers are more and more like they want to see uh like like they want to see somebody get their hat handed well you can't have it you can't do that every week because what guest is going to come when it's like this is the podcast where you get your ass handed? Well, I had an idea that I was going to start just doing interviews with people who just are on the internet.

Like I just take their videos and I can remove the background using like Filmora or one of these plug-ins. And then just find clips of them somewhere else since they're afraid to talk to us, somewhere else saying stuff, and I'll just pretend I'm having a debate with them. That could... No one from the ADL will come to talk to us, right? I'm working on it.

I want to take Jonathan Greenblatt. I just respond point by point. And I just want to do a debate with him. But you're not helping me try to get somebody when you say things like that on air. Why? Why is that not helping? I'm not going to be. We're on the same side.

I mean, I'm against anti-Semitism, obviously. I don't have anything. Well, I'm sure you might disagree with some of his position. Yeah, we might disagree a little bit. But these people, the bubble is so deep. People just don't want to risk speaking to someone that might challenge them even nicely. I'm not going to, I don't have any bad thing to say to him. Well, I think that's an excellent idea that you proposed.

And that could be the kind of thing that kind of thing that catches on because it's gimmicky but interesting. It'd be really funny. A lot of interesting things will be discussed and brought out. I think that is a good idea. I don't need you. That's true. I don't even need to call. I'd like to see how long you're going to last.

I do my own editing. You gave me the ideas. I edited a Twitter response for Yasha Monk, I guess it was yesterday, where Brett Weinstein was calling him all kinds of names. And Yasha was right. So I went and I did some research and I found all the video clips. I just edited Brett Weinstein to show that Yasha was right. Go ahead.

Okay. Well, this one I think is a bit of a long shot. But 90s folk singer Jewel Kilcher, better known as Jewel, is one of my guests. Why do you want her? My nostalgia for the 90s is becoming unmanageable. And she is sort of the focus of a lot of that nostalgia.

Okay. Maybe we can get Tracy Chapman. We went to school together. Oh, that might be a better... She knows me. Go ahead. Next. Coleman Hughes, our dear friend. Let's give a plug to Coleman. Coleman has an article out right now

called Why is Ted afraid of colorblindness? Ted Talks. Something along those lines. It's an expose of the way that even though they approved prior his TED Talk about colorblindness, they fought like hell not to release it. And in the end, when they did release it, they kind of shadow banned it in some way. It's got way fewer hits and views than other TED Talks, which obviously would be less interesting to people.

Nothing is more interesting than race. And then, of course, Coleman's colorblind TED Talk came out just as the Supreme Court overturned racial preferences. So this was obviously a hot topic, and it has like one-third the views of like Betty Crocker homemaking TED talk or something like that. So I'm being facetious, but something like that. So Ted. So Coleman wrote an article about this and it's being retweeted by a lot of people, including Caitlin Flanagan from The Atlantic, who is a solid, solid person. Go ahead. Well, anyway, he's also got a new book on race coming up very soon.

Phil Hanley, our comedian here at the Cellar, has a book about dyslexia. Phil can't read or reads very poorly. And he's really good looking. So that, to me, is a fairly powerful combination, I would think, for women. Like, oh, he's handsome, but he can't read. I want to help him.

Nicole, any thoughts on that? Well, how would that even come out? Because his act, he's talking about being dyslexic. Well, for just a regular run-of-the-mill woman who goes on a date with Phil, how would that even come out? He puts it on the wrong side. Can't order dinner. I'm saying for a woman in the audience at the comedy club,

here's a guy on stage, he's funny, he's good-looking, and he has this problem. And he likes the Grateful Dead. I mean, I would think for a woman, that's a guy on stage, he's funny, he's good looking, and he has this problem. And he wakes the Grateful Dead. I mean, I would think for a woman, that's a very powerful combination. So I'm trying to read, I'm in third grade, I'm sputtering on the syllables, I can't read. She stops the whole class, she's like, Philip, if you can't read and you can't write, how are you going to pay your bills when you're an adult? Yeah, and I wish I knew then what I know now, because I'd just be like,

talking shit about you. In the eighth grade, I'm going to go through all the grades. In the eighth grade, they tested my reading, and then they come back and they're like, you're reading at a first grade level. And I have no idea why they it to be so specific and so cruel i don't feel like they do that in other situations in life you know like if you're a grown man and you go to get a physical the doctor's never like hey you're in perfect health but by the way you have the penis of a nine-year-old

okay next uh our friend jonathan hate who has a book out about height height he's got a book out Okay, next. Our friend Jonathan Haidt, who has a book out about... Haidt. Haidt. He's got a book out about how the younger generation is like, mental health crisis among the Gen Z people or whatever, the young people. I spoke with Mr. Haidt, and he said that he would be happy to join us in November or December, and I just followed up with him, although he was neck deep writing a book. So he was.

He's a friend of ours, kind of a friend of mine. And but I want people I can argue with. Yeah, but I agree with everything you said. Well, fair. Yeah, but that's not easy to always find people you can argue with. He's fantastic. Actually, there's a podcast we did a long, long time ago about his book, The Righteous Mind,

which I think was one of the best podcasts we ever did. Also, you can bash people that aren't on the podcast with him, and in that sense, you'd be arguing with people that aren't here. But Keith Robinson, who has a Netflix special. Keith, of course, has had not one but two strokes and still doing stand-up comedy. It's somewhat inspirational. Yes, great one.

And, of course, SNL's Latin heartthrob, Marcelo Hernandez, who works this club quite frequently. He is fantastic. I know Dan hates that. No, I haven't seen him. You haven't seen him before? I've seen him. He's a handsome young man.

I haven't seen his act. No, no, no. He's not as handsome. He is funny as hell. He may be, but he's also a good-looking guy. So that combination, I would imagine, is also quite powerful. Okay, next. What do you want to talk about? That's it.

Anyway, a couple of housekeeping things. Esty gave me, this Saturday, I typically get two spots, sometimes one spot. I got three spots. Now, has there been buzz? She gave me three shows this Saturday. No, it avails of royal light. Oh, it's a light. I got three spots. Now, has there been buzz? She gave me three shows this Saturday. No, it avails of light. It's a light, okay.

All right. Because the truth of the matter is that I have never been, for what it's worth, I've never been better on stage. Does it matter? I don't know. You sure took your sweet time getting there. No, I've always been, at least for 20 years, I've been quite good.

At least 15, 20 years. But even at the tender age of 53, I'm still growing as an artist. And I thought maybe that was noticed, but apparently it's just that everybody's out with COVID, apparently, or some other reason. But okay, that's fine. Also, I was at a roofing...

Well, our guest is here. Quick, Dan, quick. I was at a roofing conference. I performed at a roofing. I thought that might be interesting. Quick, Dan, quick. I was at a roofing conference. I performed at a roofing. I thought that might be interesting. A roofing? Yeah, roofing people. Like to drug girls?

No, no, roofing people that put the roof on your house. Not roofies. Roofing. That would be the verb of a roofie. In Las Vegas. Hi, Ross. What do you mean by roofing people? I'm a comedian.

I was talking about performing at a roofing conference in Las Vegas. And, of course, the roofing business is really looking up. But anyway. So, you know, it's obviously an environment. There was not a Jew within 100 miles of that. Well, it was on Yom Kippur. And it was literally on Yom Kippur. And so I tend to get very intimidated by this kind of environment. A lot of real men there, huh?

Well, it's just people very different than me. And, you know, I'm worried that they're not going to like me. But it went quite well. They loved you. People similar to you are not crazy about you either. They liked me a good... Yeah, loved, you know, it's a word I don't use, I don't throw around. But it was a very good show.

One of my better corporate shows, because corporate shows tend to be quite difficult. Good money, Dan? It was good money, yeah. You said that there were a lot of puns No, when I post it on Facebook, I'm doing a roofing conference Naturally, everybody's like, oh, you're at the top of your game You know So I said, well, it's tile and error

Anyway, our guest is here Let me Were they all vaccinated? Did they have the shingles vaccine? Very good. Mr. Ross Barkin. Where do they go to the bathroom? Do they shit on a shingle?

Go ahead. Go ahead. That's an old army for chip beef on toast. Go ahead. My army days. Come on. Ross Barkin is joining us. Hi, Ross.

Hi, Ross. Good to be here. Very excited to be above the Comedy Cellar. Now, we is joining us. Hi, Ross. Hi, Ross. Good to be here. Very excited to be above the comedy cellar. Now, we met you online a couple years ago. Yes. In the depths of COVID, so I'm very happy to have escaped Zoom, be here in the flesh. Ross is a contributing writer to New York

Times Magazine and a columnist for Cranes and is Substack. He has a fantastic Substack. I am a subscriber. Do you know I'm a subscriber? Yes, I saw you subscribe. Thank you. Yes. I hope that sub stack does well for you.

Ross first came on our radar because he was very prescient about understanding that Andrew Cuomo was full of it while women were throwing their panties at him and everybody was in a state of awe and euphoria about this guy. Ross was saying, the emperor has no clothes as I was. That's why I was drawn to you. How right were we on a scale of 1 to 10? 11?

Yeah, I'd give it 11.5. 11.5. I like that. You want to just recap that for people? So yeah, recap Cuomo. Wow. So much has changed since I think it was April of 2020 when I was on. I remember because it was around Rosh Hashanah. Are you Jewish?

Yes. We were wondering. We wanted to make sure. I had already ascertained that with my Jewdar. Right. No, the Jewdar usually works. Some people think I'm Irish. I had already ascertained that with my judar. Right. No, the judar usually works. Some people think I'm Irish. I thought you were Irish.

People do. People do. Understandable. I just found out my wife's Puerto Rican. Noam was really excited to have you on. We had just started doing Zoom, and I was still figuring out how this was all working. But you were one of our first real Zoom guests, right? So Cuomo.

So Cuomo was extremely popular and saving the world when we last spoke. Of course, he was not saving the world. Many thousands of people were dying from COVID in New York City. He made a lot of horrible mistakes, including sending COVID patients back to nursing homes, and then he covered it up and manipulated the data. For unrelated reasons, he had to resign from office because he sexually harassed a bunch of people. Allegedly. Allegedly, which I actually did not see coming, to be fair. I did not have Cuomo resigning over sexual harassment allegations in my bingo card. But I thought for other reasons,

he probably should have left. And I do think his other failures played a role in his downfall, because I think a lot of politicians were willing to turn on him at that point, because he also failed on COVID and courted scandal, but certainly that the sexual harassment allegations were what broke the dam open. And he resigned in August of 21. And now we've had a new governor for two years now, which is crazy. Now, people do make mistakes. And this was an unprecedented situation. And he made big mistakes. But do you have any forgiveness for him? What do you think? What was the origin of the mistakes? Was it hubris?

Was it arrogance? Are you sure that if you were in his shoes, you might not have made the same mistakes? I like to think I wouldn't have. I do think hubris, arrogance. He was someone who was plotting to write a book about COVID in 2020. He was getting book advance money. He was having staffers work on the book. So he was someone who's very image conscious. I think in the back

of his head, he's probably thinking, well, one day I can run for president. So I think certainly the manipulation of the data was a big part of it. And yes, I do think hubris played an incredibly large role. Do I have forgiveness? Look, I'll forgive anyone, mostly. What I'll say is it was very hard to govern in that period. It was hard on everyone, but other governors weren't becoming national heroes and then lying and forcing their health commissioner to lie. Of course, the health commissioner going along with it. So I don't really forgive him because I do think while it was hard to be governor then,

it was hard on everyone. The decisions he made, even at the time, were suspect. And there are a lot of people in 2020 questioning his decisions on COVID. And the chickens came home to roost in a lot of ways. I do think people view him with much more clarity now, which is a good thing. I mean, in retrospect, would you agree, given the fact that we know that basically everything equalized in the whole world, including Sweden, that it was just a matter of stalling the inevitable in terms of the virus

basically hitting almost everybody on planet Earth. In retrospect, and it's only in retrospect, the only smart policy that we needed was to determine who were the high-risk individuals, the old people and the sick, and do everything we could to isolate them in so such time as we had medications or a vaccine. And everything else was basically a waste of time. You agree with that? I partially agree. I think that's definitely true.

Only in retrospect. I didn't know that at the time. I think definitely protecting the vulnerable should have been a priority from day one. I do think the lockdowns and shutdowns, certainly nationwide in different localities, went on too long. New York did open its schools in 2020, unlike California, but it was difficult. So I do think like closing down parks was a huge mistake, chaining up open spaces. I think if you go back to the very beginning, Cuomo and de Blasio both dawdled on initially messaging around COVID and you saw less death per capita in

certain localities like in San Francisco and Washington who avoided some of the worst waves because they had clear communication from the beginning. So I do think there probably could have been earlier interventions in terms of shutdowns, but I also think they went on too long. And I do think politicians did not understand the long-term impact, did not want to understand perhaps the long-term impact on both businesses and on schools. Because I do think by later in 2020, we could have safely operated businesses. I do think school should have come back. And a lot of localities went on with the shutdowns far, far too long. And we've seen a real price paid for that. So here's a hot take. At the time, everybody was worried that the lasting impact of COVID, or everybody was worried what it would be.

People as not prone to hysteria as Tyler Cowen worried that comedy clubs may never come back. Would we ever recover? People were saying, would we ever shake hands again? Would people remember all this stuff? Yes. But in retrospect, that was not the long-term effect of COVID. I would say that the long-term effect of COVID has been a tremendous resentment and mistrust of so many institutions that we haven't recovered from. The lying, the censorship, the hypocrisy, for instance,

people getting furious that some kids were going to spring break in a beach somewhere. And then a week later, cheering when you had huge BLM protests. This kind of – with people rationalizing it, scientists rationalizing it. Well, racism is a health crisis too. I mean the most shameless kind of nonsense. And we haven't recovered from that. And this was a fuel on the fire of the already polarized population. In some way, it still fuels Trump. What do you think about all that?

I would agree. I think that the public health establishment has not reckoned with their failure. And I say this as someone who writes from a left perspective and who is really in a lonely place for parts of COVID because I was curious. We were told at the beginning of 2021, once everyone was vaccinated, COVID would stop spreading. That was not true. There's this idea, once one was vaccinated, they could not spread COVID ever again. And you can go back and look at how public health officials and scientists were talking about vaccination. You think they knew it wasn't true? I don't know. Not necessarily. I think they spoke. I think they spoke with a sense of certainty that was unearned based on the trials at the time. were a lot more consistent, we could have gotten a lot further. I think back to masking, if you look at February 2020, there were prestige

publications like the New York Times and Vox saying not to hoard masks, don't wear masks, they don't work. Then suddenly in March of 2020, wear masks, wear masks, wear masks. I think masks are fine, but you saw an inconsistency there. Vaccines, again, the idea that breakthrough cases were rare, suddenly they're extremely common. First, it was, you know, one vaccine is enough. Then it's like, we'll get a booster every six months, right? If it was communicated from the get-go, look, we think this will probably work, but it will probably be something that older people should get. Younger people could get it. But also, we don't know how COVID is going to evolve. So you're going to need maybe a booster another six months. You know, it could have been

better than no, this thing is the miracle cure out of the gate, and it will solve all our problems right away. And it didn't happen. And that was natural. You know, you're talking about the Operation Warp Speed came, you know, in the span of a year and COVID was evolving. But I think the false sense of certainty a lot of people spoke about COVID did damage. I think that the lack of empathy for parents who had to send their kids back to school. Do you have kids? No, I do not. But I know a lot of people who do.

And that was a really tough time and not, but know a lot of people who do. And that was a really tough time and a tough decision for a lot of people. And you had sort of a militant side of the COVID debate that said, no, shut them down indefinitely until COVID stopped spreading. But we knew, looking at the past, the 1918 pandemic, it was going to spread and eventually it would become less severe. That's kind of how pandemics evolve. So given that, would it make sense to close schools indefinitely? Well, no. Kids have to go back. We also started to see evidence that kids overall were safer than older adults. I mean, that was just factual. By the way, it doesn't have to spread and get less. It has.

1918 did that, and this probably has done that, although it's difficult to tease out the vaccine and the medications and the immunity that people have from having had it from the actual virus. But I did some looking into this at the time. I believe that mutations tend to make a virus, a deadly virus, less deadly. They tend to. But it doesn't have to be that way. It can also mutate to get worse.

Knock on wood, that hasn't happened. Well, it can mutate in any direction. It's just what the mutations that favor the survival of the virus tend to be the ones that make it less severe. Right. But for instance, mutations are random. They can go in either direction. Right. But I think that I asked a virologist once and she seemed to say that there's more combinations of a less dangerous virus than there are of a super deadly virus. Super deadly viruses are just rare. So the odds are when there's a mutation, it would probably mutate. This is junk science. Maybe that was what she said.

And I think and I think for the record, I think the vaccines do work at preventing the worst outcomes. I think certainly older adults should be getting vaccinated. Absolutely. You know, younger people at this point. I mean, you hear look, younger people at this point, I mean, you hear, look, younger people certainly can. I do think, though, you know, we're at a point where it's a lot less severe. So, you know, I think if you want to get vaccinated, like with the flu vaccine, you should get vaccinated. That's

a good thing. Some people don't get the flu vaccine. I mean, I get it every year. I think the thing that Jewish boy, I think the thing at the time that I was concerned with, and I wrote a lot about this in 2021 and 2022, is I was very skeptical of the vaccine mandates because I didn't like the idea of a person's employment being tied to their health decisions. I always viewed that as kind of a civil liberties and even left position, that this is something that a person shouldn't lose their employment

over a vaccination decision. So I wrote at the time that I didn't think it was right to be firing public sector employees, for example, for not getting vaccinated. As far as the private sector is concerned, you were less concerned with they have the right to do what they want. No, I didn't like it either. It's just that the public sector was something where the politicians had a say over it. So in theory, my writings could have

something of an impact there. But no, I didn't like, we never had a situation in certainly where, you know, to get a job at a company, you submitted your health records. I mean, healthcare professionals is one thing. I understood it more if you were a nurse or a doctor, I understood regulations there. But if you're going to work on Wall Street or going to teach, it never made sense to me that your employment was contingent on- But Noam, you're an employer. I want to get past COVID. I'll just say this and then move on. It made sense at first when we thought that the vaccine was shorthand for you can't get it and you can't spread it. And so I was very quick in making sure that every customer and every employee was vaccinated because that was supposed to mean a COVID-free environment.

And therefore, if somebody was immunocompromised or someone had to bring their children, I could present them with a safe atmosphere. As soon as it was clear to me that that wasn't the case at all, that everybody I knew was getting COVID and they were getting it from people who were vaccinated, then it was like, okay, well, you know, you got to change your opinion because it's a totally different scenario.

And very few people are flexible that way to say, oh, well, I thought it was that. But this is now it's this. So now I think de facto you've seen that change now where all the mandates have pretty much been dropped. And no one has. Interestingly enough, no one has really said anything beyond. I teach at NYU actually came from NYU. They this year dropped all their like you don't have to show your vaccine status, enter a building or anything like that. So it was very quiet, quietly, it was acknowledged these interventions don't work anymore and it's time to move on. Though at the time, I remember when they were talking about

ending these mandates in like 2022, someone would always say, well, now you're going to have a new wave of COVID and people are going to die. And it just, it wasn't the case. Biden said they're Neanderthals in Texas. They're going to die. I mean, anyways, you wrote you wrote a really interesting column about the migrant crisis in New York City. I confess to it's weird, like for people who don't live in New York, we're told we have a huge migrant crisis. But I will say as a New Yorker, I haven't seen it or witnessed it. And that's the experience that many people I know have had. But I'm told it's real. And I haven't seen it or witnessed it. And that's the experience that many people I know have had, but I'm told it's real. And I don't doubt that it's real, which is interesting that you can have a crisis of supposedly this seriousness, this magnitude. And if nobody

told me about it, I would never know. It's the end of the city. Okay. Well, let me know. But you don't believe it's quite the crisis that they say it is. So why don't you give us your opinion of it? By the way, I want to tell you something. I know that you're a left-wing socialist guy. Yeah. But I've yet to hear you say something or read or written something that I was like, oh, my God, this guy's out to lunch. I mean I know that there's certain fundamental assumptions that you operate from that I wouldn't, oh my God, this guy's out to lunch. I mean, I know that there's certain fundamental assumptions

that you operate from that I wouldn't agree with. But it's just very interesting that when even someone who's, I'm no fire-breathing conservative, but I'm way more conservative than you are. But it's just, I find it interesting to me always when I meet someone very, very smart, who I know I don't agree with on a lot of things, but they're very, very smart

and they seem to be quite intellectually honest. You realize you're very close actually on a lot of things, much closer than you would think because intellectually honest people, hopefully in the end, they're both like, well, this is what I think, but let me just see what the facts are.

Show me the data. And of course, if I'm wrong about something, I'll adjust. You know, there's very few people like that. But when you do meet people like that, it's, you kind of recognize them. I'm just curious what you teach at NYU real quick.

So I teach in the graduate program, I teach a journalism class. It's actually the news and documentary filmmaking program. I'm not a filmmaker, but I teach them writing and reporting skills. So I'm doing that. So migrants, yes. It's an issue, a crisis, sure. It's a big city. I mean, I always remember, I think what you said is very true. And I feel like people outside of New York don't get it,

either if it's someone watching Fox News or just someone in California is like, oh my God, are you overrun of migrants? Like, well, sure. If you go to like certain specific parts of the city where there are shelters, if you visit a shelter, sure. You would say, wow, this is kind of an issue. But, you know, we're a city of almost nine million people now. It's just we're down here in the village. Right. You walk down the street. You can walk through most parts of Manhattan, and it looks like Manhattan. Just for those of us who aren't maybe familiar with this,

who are these migrants? Where are they coming from? Why are they coming in large numbers now? So a lot of them are from Venezuela. Venezuela is a country that has been in this ongoing crisis under Nicolas Maduro, the successor to Chavez, a lot less successful than Chavez in terms of keeping the country in order, put it that way. So Venezuela collapsing, big problem for a long time.

Now you're seeing a lot of people leave, people with means, people without means getting out, coming through Mexico, coming up to the border. You've seen Republican governors sending them north. I think some are now getting north on their own volition, too. The word has certainly gone out that New York City will be more hospitable than Texas. So more, I believe, are coming here. It's been 100,000 since last year over the course of a year, which is a lot of people. But again, a city of eight and a half million people, 100,000 people, you see that walking down. But how would we know? I mean, we have a large Hispanic population anyway. How would I know that there's a big migrant crisis? I mean, honestly, if you never read the news and didn't walk near a shelter or go near the

Port Authority, go near certain hotels, it's not like COVID. You wouldn't know. I mean, that's the truth. If you didn't pay attention and didn't spend time near where they're coming through and near where makeshift shelters have been struggling to handle them, you probably wouldn't. I mean, that's the truth. It would just look like any other immigrant class Now, the mayor says it's going to cost New York $12 billion over three years. That's $4 billion a year. Now, I just was trying to put that in perspective. The NYPD spends around $5.5 billion on its day-to-day operations. It spends more in debt and pensions.

So that is a huge amount of money. And when somebody wants to cut the NYPD by $300 million or add $300 million to the budget, this is considered significant change within city budgets. So an unexpected $4 billion in the budget, I have trouble understanding how it could be $4 billion. But that's a real thing. Is that a real number? And how do we deal with that? It's real. It's a projection. But it's also projections can be toyed with. Exaggerated. Projections don't take into account changing circumstances, right? So the migrants just got

called TPS, special status. If you're from Venezuela, you can apply for work permits now. So you're going to be having a large class of people who are eligible to go to work, which means they'll be leaving the shelters because no one wants to stay. These shelters are not fun. This idea that people want to come for a free ride and stay in a New York City shelter is insane. You get robbed there, you get raped there. It's not a good place to be. These people want to leave. They're going to leave. They're going to get work. Some will move into apartments. Some will leave the city. Some may go upstate. There's a lot of farm work upstate. Some may just go to a different state altogether. So I'm skeptical of that number because the future is not clear. And I think now that they have work permits, they will become

people who can be self-sufficient. You're just to tie things together, a lot of Hispanics in the roofing business. Yeah. I mean, right now you have an economy that can afford to take in a lot more workers. And you know the service sector is struggling for workers. You've got the agricultural industry needs people. Hospitality needs people. There's a big need for labor right now. There's a lot of people, because of COVID, because of inflation, because of how wages

have changed, don't want to do certain work anymore, are changing their work habits. And now there's a need. So these migrants can meet the need. I believe Joe Biden really has to take the lead here, have a real federal strategy here. I think there are parts of America that need human capital badly, and migrants should be distributed there. Trump got in trouble for using that phrase, human capital. Remember that? I actually don't know. I know that was a bad one. It canceled the period. Wow. People were that phrase, human capital. Remember that? I actually don't know.

I know that was a bad one. It was a good one. Wow. People were beside themselves. Human capital. Wow. That's kind of a very dry. It's a generic term.

It's a very dry, generic term, human capital. I mean, they need people, right? St. Louis, Detroit, Buffalo. You can name so many. Cleveland, so many cities where neighborhoods have gotten emptied out. They don't have taxpayers. Let me ask you a couple of questions. They need hardworking humans. One of the things that occurred to me and probably many other people when Eric Adams was having the

kind of panicked hissy fit was that for years when other states, at least as overrun as New York is, have been saying, we can't handle this. We don't have the resources. It's more than we can handle. They were simply dismissed as racists. Oh, you don't want brown people there. Now, I'm sure that there's always some element of people being racist. There's some element of what I would consider human and forgivable sense of not wanting your culture to be drastically changed with what you're comfortable with. I think that's not sufficiently respected. It's not an evil instinct. It's perfectly normal. The Upper West Side Jews, my people, who complain about this ruthlessly when it comes to others, they do seem to migrate all to be around each other in the

Upper West Side, right? So it's a very human thing. But anyway, but to some extent, I think we have to acknowledge that it couldn't have been all racism. It couldn't have been all because they were brown people because no place that has had to deal with this deluge has not lost their shit, right? How brown are these Venezuelans that are coming here? Because Venezuela has a lot of white people, a lot of European...

Let him just answer my question first. I can't answer the question. What I'll say is that I don't think most... Straight to the mic, okay? Yeah. Sorry. Take two.

There we go. I don't think most ordinary people are virulently racist. I think they like the way a town or a neighborhood is, and this goes kind of beyond race to kind of just how it functions and then the functioning changes, they get upset. I think there are politicians who are racist or xenophobic or race baiting. I think there's a lot of them. But yes, there are logistical challenges when you have a big population coming through, particularly border areas that are not big enough to handle them. It's a lot. They do need help.

And truthfully, New York City can handle this. I think one of my frustrations with Eric Adams and others are is you're the mayor of the biggest city in America. You're saying your city's going to get destroyed. It's like, wait a second. We had 9-11. We had COVID. We had Hurricane Sandy. This is not what's destroying New York City. Maybe a nuclear apocalypse, but this is not that. So the idea that this city can't process migrants coming through, who, again, I'm not convinced are all going to stay here. Some will stay. Some will stay, send money home, try to raise families.

Some will leave. They'll decide it's too expensive. They'll go to a town upstate. They'll go to Albany. They'll go to Massachusetts. They'll maybe head to Texas eventually. They'll go to a town upstate. They'll go to Albany. They'll go to Massachusetts. They'll maybe head to Texas eventually. They're going to move. That's kind of how it works. And some will stay, but we're already a city of immigrants. I mean, we're an incredibly diverse city. So yes, you're concerned about the budget. You're concerned about social services. I also

think these things can be managed because I don't believe the budget holes that are being projected are that large, particularly once they go to work. All right, let's do some rapid fire. What would you do to control the immigration problem at the border? Control at the border? It's a good question. I have not thought hard enough about federal immigration policy. What I think is you can have stricter border controls, but also have a more rational immigration policy that makes it easier to legally become a citizen here. And I think it's very hard and unwieldy. And I think there's not really a reason. There shouldn't be a reason for that because we're a nation that still has a lot of

land, a lot of resources. We still need labor. We need high-skilled labor. We need lower-skilled labor, medium-skilled labor. So I'm someone who I do believe in a more liberal in the sense that an immigration policy allows more people to come here. The border itself, I mean, look- We need labor and we need youth. Need youth too. We have a declining birth rate. I mean, that's a real thing now. So let me just say, I had a thought, you know, I began to think that maybe the wall is actually the best idea. And let me tell you what my thinking was. You tell me what's ridiculous about it. To control a border, well, first of all, to have a policy about who comes in and out, you have to control the border. You can't discuss who's going to come in and out of your house

if you can't lock the windows and lock the doors. It's a futile conversation. It's a silly conversation if it doesn't matter what you say, they're going to come in anyway. So you have to, if you want to have a policy about who comes in and out, and I'm with you about being an open country, you have to be able to control the border. And to control a border, you need a barrier. And barriers can be people with guns, can be dogs, can be police, all sorts of things that are ugly and that will lead to horrible videos of inhumane things and people being hurt and shot and who knows what it is. If you need a barrier, and you do, I mean, there's nothing else. You need a barrier. Then a wall seems to be the most humane thing you can have. What are you going to have, snipers?

What are we kidding ourselves? We're going to invest in half a million border guards and have them – people taking selfie cameras of them rounding people up and dragging them and fighting with them and being abusive to them, which they will be. And I know we had this whole thing with Trump and the wall and whatever it is, but I woke up and said, well, you know, that seems logical to me. Where am I going wrong? The logistics of actually building a full wall in the southern border, I think, are pretty challenging. I understand that you've got kind of a massive infrastructure project, though. Assuming it can be done. If it can't be done, then obviously. If it could be in theory, I'd have to know what the cost would be. I'd have to know how it could be physically done. I do think, look, there's a fair argument to say that other nations in the world don't have unchecked immigration. It doesn't happen. And it's not reasonable here to just have a completely porous open border. It doesn't make sense. You do need it secured in some fashion.

The best way to do that, quite frankly, I haven't studied immigration enough. I don't write a ton on immigration policy, so I can't speak to it well where I'd feel good about it. What I do feel good about is you can't have an unchecked, completely open border. It doesn't make sense. It just doesn't happen anywhere. Certainly in more so-called progressive nations, it does not happen. But you also need a policy that is rational, that does make it easier for people who want to stay here and work here to be here. And that goes back to the immigration reform, which has been battled around Congress for decades and has been done for a variety of reasons. Republicans certainly don't want to do it. Well, they wanted to. So that's kind of where we are. Sanders, your guy Sanders filibustered it back in the early 2000s. Talking about the Bush's plan.

There is the 06. I don't know. I forgot a few. You had the Democrats were willing to do more border security in turn for immigration reform. It didn't get done. But yeah, since then, there hasn't really been much done. But do you agree with me? This is really not a position on immigration.

I think this is just the logic that's irrefutable, that before you can have a policy, you have to be able to control the border. Otherwise, the policy is just false. We're only going to let 1,000 people in, or we're only going to let a million people in. But by the way, people just run over the border. Otherwise, the policy is just false. We're only going to let a thousand people in or we're only going to let a million people in. But by the way, people just run over the border every day. That's not a policy. It's a lie. You have to control the border. And by the way, along the lines of what you say about the migrants, if we did control the border, you would see very quickly, just like Kansas voted to keep abortion,

just like the Republicans said they were going to repeal Obamacare and they didn't when they had the chance to do it. We need the labor. We need the labor and everybody will, they, they, the second there were no immigrants, people would then start saying we need the labor. And you would see this issue, I think, actually largely come to a compromise because right now a lot of people don't realize that we need the labor. I'll tell you who does childcare, who have gardeners, who go to restaurants, who have all sorts of businesses. We need the labor and there's no – I don't think there's any reasonable fear that anybody should have that if we did control the border, America would have no choice but to have a pretty open immigration policy, because otherwise we'd go down the drain. And as I said, we need the youth.

And that's going to rear its ugly head, too. Well, can we start having more sex? No, it's not going to happen. Well, I mean, is it maybe we can somehow with encouraging the white supremacists are saying that every day they want to. Well, I'm not saying only white people should be having babies, but is there a way to encourage family? There is, I would say, more social safety net programs that make it much easier to have kids, to pay for kids,

to pay for childcare, to do all the expenses that comes with child rearing, more affordable housing. You can't mean mortgage rates are very high. Houses are incredibly expensive. You're talking about you want to raise a family of three kids and do it in a non-rural area, put it that way. It's just very expensive. And we're talking about raising three kids in New York and New Jersey and Connecticut.

I mean, you have to be well off now. I mean, you really can't be unless... The problem, I think, with the to be well off now. I mean, you really can't be unless the problem, I think, with the system now is that vast middle gets lost because you have something of a safety net for the very poor. You have Medicaid. Medicaid's fine, but the threshold is not very high. And once you're out of it, you're into that enormous middle where you're struggling to pay for health insurance. You're not rich enough to just go pay for whatever you want. So I do think it's very hard as a youngish person.

I know a lot of people who they like to have two kids, three kids, four kids, five kids. They like to get the house, like to do all of it. Cost money. It's a lot of money. Except that it seems all over the world as people are becoming affluent, they just want to have fewer kids. Some do. I have three kids. Well, Elon Musk talked about it. He said it's our duty to have kids. He really loves to have fewer kids. Some do. I have three kids. Well, Elon Musk talked about it.

He said it's our duty to have kids. He really loves to have kids. And I love, I would have another one. But most families I know, without regard to money, have one or two. And they can afford a third. And that's enough. But two is not really a replacement. You need a little bit more than two to be a replacement level.

And we need more than a replacement level because we have that baby boom. We need the youth to support the people who are getting old at the time when three and four kids was typical. You have a big problem where you have a retiring generation that's quite large, and then a younger working

generation that's just a lot smaller. So we need immigrants. And I think with a lot of policies, there's a lot smaller. So we need immigrants. And I think with a lot of policies, there's a lot of bluster and people don't even understand what they're talking about. And then reality asserts itself as I believe it will.

It's beginning to with abortion, as it did with Obamacare, as it does quite often. And I think it would be, if they controlled the border, people should not worry that that would be the end of immigration. No, but I actually just very briefly address something. You said it's very, very controversial. It's also a talking point among white supremacists. That doesn't mean it's wrong, but it is one of their talking points where you said, you know, a lot of anti-immigrant sentiment is because people want to preserve the culture of the United States. I didn't say a lot. I don't know what that number is, but go ahead.

Some number of people that are anti-immigrant are anti-immigrant because they want to preserve the culture that they know. And it's a controversial position. I'm not saying it's a wrong position, but... I mean, nobody wants their neighborhood rapidly to become Hasidic. So I think everybody understands in some way there is some level of,

like you want to wake up and live in Chinatown. It's nothing to do with having any bad feelings about Chinese people, God forbid. It's just that you don't know the culture, you don't know the language. It's just people tend to gravitate. And at a certain pace, America has been very good at a certain pace of assimilation that it's the most beautiful thing about America.

At a certain pace, our cultures blend. I mean, when I was a kid, sushi was something like there's an old Odd Couple episode where like raw fish. It was so outrageous that people were like, oh, my God. It was like you can't even imagine. And over time, it becomes a ubiquitous food and part of everybody's culture. And this is just a small example. But overnight, it can't happen. But what does this mean is that I think the logical extension of that argument is that there are certain immigrants that should get priority if the goal is not to overwhelm the culture.

I don't know, Dan. I don't— I would just speak about the cultural aspect. I take the position that I don't know what American culture is. American culture is this hodgepodge of everything. I think that's why it's great. It is so elastic, and it does assimilate. I think 100 years ago, we were seeing levels of immigration larger than today. You want to talk about open borders, the people, certainly racist sentiment at that time was really being

applied certainly to the European immigrants coming through. The fear that the white Christian culture was getting overrun, the WASP culture, right? And you saw a 40-year period of really restricted immigration, then it opens up again in the 60s. So for me, I think America has always done well with waves of immigration. I, myself, as I'm sure all of you are all descended from Eastern European immigrants who came on boats out of pogroms. I'm first generation, two immigrant parents. Oh, wow. Yeah. I'm like fourth generation. So I go back to the 19th century. But yeah, I mean, in terms of culture, you know, for me, I do think if you're worried

about American culture, so to speak, I do think that's where you veer into racism and xenophobia. But there was something different. I don't know about that necessarily. What is it? What is American culture? I don't know what American culture is,

but I don't think it's necessarily xenophobic to want to preserve a given culture. Now, we can argue about what that culture is. I mean, if you went to japan and all of a sudden it was 90 caucasians would it be the same country well they're japan and i i was in japan for the first time this year lovely place i like japan a lot they are xenophobic they're very very but but it wouldn't be japan if it was all white people it just wouldn't be dan this is this is what I think. Would it? It is human. And it's

at the nexus of racism and not race. The overlap. There is hate for other people. And there is also the reality that people do feel comfortable among people that they have commonalities with.

And that could turn on an edge, you know? There's no question that the people in the 20s, as he was in that convulsive time, they were both racist and uncomfortable. And then over time, it seems silly. Look back and like, what were they worried about? Because we all love this culture now

but of course we're all generations later but having said that we have no choice and that is really at some point you have to say yeah

but you know what what are we going to do like we need it so we need it and if you fantasize about taking like more Europeans

I didn't say I fantasized about it I said that seemed to be the logical conclusion. Right, but they don't want to come here. There's no big numbers of affluent people wanting to come to America. I'm all for it. So, I mean, it depends. One thing I'll say is a sort of tangent on the immigration side of this.

Something we need is a lot more doctors. We actually have a real doctor shortage in the United States, especially in rural areas. And something we could do is make it much easier for foreign doctors to come and practice here. We put up a lot of roadblocks. Of course we should. It's not a simple thing.

When I see the word universidades on the diploma in my doctor's office, I get nervous. Yeah, but the thing is, so if you were— What's the matter with you? Well, I don't know, because a lot of times the people, like, they can't get into an American med school. They go to like— Yeah, actually, that's right. We Americans go to Mexico for medical school.

But I'd also say conversely, like, if you're on vacation in Europe or something, or even Mexico, right, you go to the hospital, would you be terrified that that doctor there is going to, like your body or something like no they're professionals right some countries are better than others i assume yeah no there are in america doesn't have the best health running out of time can i make one other point what is different now than well maybe it's not different than the 20s but it's different than other times and it's why i'm so happy that the supreme court uh got rid of these racial preferences in universities and I hope that that carries through and has a momentum. And by the way, it's interesting how few people

are really upset about it, is that it always seemed false to me that we're going to take people from other countries. It doesn't matter where they're from. People make, I don't actually like Dan's argument. It doesn't matter where they're from. I don't actually like Dan's argument. It doesn't matter where they come from. It was your argument. You said people that want to preserve their culture cannot be dismissed.

It doesn't matter where they come from. But once they're here, we're going to count them up and make sure there aren't too many Asians in Harvard. And I think that there's a tremendous contradiction there. We have to be open to immigrants. And then once they're here, we have to treat them like everybody else. And I don't know if you'd agree with the following. I don't believe that if there was a white ethnic group, Germans, whatever, who was overachieving the way Asians overachieve, that we would do anything about it. I believe at root it's because they look different.

That if it was a white subgroup that had the same scores as Asians, I do not believe they would be segregated out and considered differently for admissions. I don't know if anybody disagrees with me. What if they look like Marcelo Hernandez? I think that it is racist at its core. And I always believed you could make the argument that we owed a debt to black America and that we should have certain policies or whatever, some preferences, whatever. I don't agree with that, but I understand that argument. I never understood the argument that we should start segregating, slicing and dicing beyond that.

Asians and this and that, I think it's gross. And it's not compatible with immigration, because if we're going to take immigration, we need assimilation. And if we need assimilation, we need people to think of each other as other Americans, not as competitors in a zero-sum competition for jobs and university spots. That can't work. So in terms of affirmative action, I would say I think it started from a reasonable place where you go back to the 1960s and 70s trying to help a particular disadvantaged group. I do think it went off the rails. I do think you went to this very strange place of weighing all these different racial preferences, of doing these strange personality profiles and looking at a certain application in a particular way.

And Asian students were punished for it. So I have a lot of empathy for the Asian student who is locked out of education. But I mean, my greater take is we shouldn't focus on Harvard so much that I would like to actually see more focus and investment in the schools that are actually educating American students in larger numbers. So public universities, that's what I care about a lot more. Who goes to Harvard was never much of a concern for me because it's 3% of the population. It's either going to be this 3%, that 3%, not the population, that's who they admit. It's an infinitesimal part of the sort of college universe. So for me, I care about funding public schools better. I care about teaching. I think the only problem we have in this country is that we are not properly educating children between kindergarten and sixth grade. I believe if we could keep all children on an equal level at the sixth grade, every other problem would disappear from that. And I think if we don't do that, there is nothing you can really do when somebody is getting close

to high school that will turn it around and then equalize the number of doctors and lawyers and professionals of all races and whatever it is. anybody who's old enough to remember the people they knew when they were young knows that the kids you went to school with who were fuck-ups or didn't do well or came from difficult situations, whatever it was, if they were way behind in sixth grade, they are not doctors now. They are not doing well now. They are struggling in some way. Of course, there's outliers, but in general. And we try to do so much. But if I was in charge, I would try to drop all or many other things and just focus on figuring out how do we get all children to do the same in grammar school. I think that's our only problem.

All right. Congestion pricing. Yes. Ooh, that's a good topic. And then we got to go. You're grammar school. I think that's our only problem. All right. Congestion pricing. Yes. Ooh, that's a good topic. And then we got to go. You're for it. Can we just- Yes.

Listeners, describe what it is. Okay. Tentatively in favor, yeah. They're going to start charging people to drive below 60th Street? Yes. $20 a day. Hasn't been decided yet, but it could be, yes. Nicole, can you play the video that I – so on the way in, I –

In order to drive in Manhattan – No sound, Nicole. During rush hour, it's going to cost money. 24 hours. Oh, 24 hours. But it's cheaper at night. Yes. It would be variable.

But again, the tolling prices have not been decided. The idea is it would vary by rush hour versus non-rush hour, cheaper at night, more expensive weekdays. Okay. I just – because this is the thing. So I just took like a little minute video in my car to make the point that – go ahead, play it. That I'm not seeing a lot of fancy cars on the streets of Manhattan below 60th Street. This is a very middle class – and I did not cherry pick. I just stopped and restarted with, these are Hondas and small cars.

This looks very much like cars that people who have kids or who are working and getting around, and it just goes on. We can just let it play while we're talking. So it's very clear to me that this is a really harsh tax on middle class people. Middle class people who have who have planned their lives around a certain expectation.

I'm going to live here. I'll get a car. I'll drive my kids to work. Then I'll go to the office. Every office building that has rich people in it has probably two or three middle-class people that serve in that organization, secretaries, janitors, whatever it is, and nurses, orderlies, whatever. And these people cannot afford an extra $400 a month starting tomorrow. That's number one.

Number two, I have people working for me who are quite old. I have people in their late 70s, 80s who work in the evenings. They come from Jersey. They can't take public transportation back to Jersey at 11, 12 at night. They can't afford it. The subways are horrible. And finally, in the middle of Manhattan now, we're worried about a real estate crash because the buildings are half full as it is. congestion pricing, but this will encourage people to work elsewhere at a time when we need people to fill up these buildings. So from every angle, oh, and also it's 24 hours. In England, they

stopped it at night. Also, it's supposed to be for pollution, but they don't care if you drive a fully electric car. It's obviously just a money grab. From every angle, I think this is horrible. But most of all, listen, I make a good living. I'm happy to pay the extra money and not have to deal with traffic if that's the way it works out. I park in a garage. I don't say this arrogantly,

but it's really, you know, it's going to roll off my back. But the people who work for me, the people who work for me, this is horribly unfair. I can remember my lifetime, people freaking out about the suggestion of a 50 cent toll on the Brooklyn Bridge. 50 cents. And now they want to hit people with $20. So you're for it. Anyway, I have a lot to say about congestion pricing as well. But we'll certainly let Ross take the lead.

Congestion pricing. It's actually in my wheelhouse, congestion. And there's a long tweet thread here. I'll a lot to say about congestion pricing as well, but we'll certainly let Ross take the lead. Congestion pricing. It's actually in my wheelhouse, congestion. And there's a long tweet thread here. I'll send it to you. I don't have time to read it. About a guy who's for it, who's just – and he's really – it's interesting because he goes – he thinks it through, and then he's coming up with all the problems, but he's still for it. He's like bridge over the River Kwai. He's like still for it, but it just – it doesn't work.

He's talking about this highway doesn't work, and this mass transit doesn't work. Yeah. Ross, you know, he's like still for it, but it just, it doesn't work. He's talking about this highway doesn't work and this, this mass transit doesn't work. And yeah. Ross, you say what? So I think one thing that has to happen with the congestion pricing is you shouldn't double toll people. So there's something I am concerned about. You shouldn't what? I'm sorry. Double toll. So this idea that's being debated where you're paying a toll already.

If you're coming to New Jersey and driving, you pay a toll. You come through the Holland and Lincoln Tunnel. You're coming, I live in Bay Ridge. You come in through the Battery Tunnel, the Hugh Carey. You pay a toll, right? The new tolls would be coming in from the north or coming over the Brooklyn Bridge, Manhattan Bridge, Queensborough, and then entering below 60th and paying.

So I do think you shouldn't be double-tolled. If you're paying a toll already, I do think that's enough. And other congestion pricing and transit experts agree with me. It's not like an unpopular opinion at all or an opinion that people in that world would disagree with. I do think it'd be a mistake if you're going to hit someone coming in from New Jersey with the toll they already pay in the Holland Tunnel and hit them again. I think that'd be a mistake. If that happens, I'd agree with you more.

What do the great transit experts who really don't know anything, but I'm saying that, I don't mean to be- Yeah, they know some things, but yeah. So you're asking why are they doing it? Why do they support it? I think it's clear they're doing it because they just want to raise money, and they're up to here with taxation, and so this is a rationale. They don't really want people to stop driving into the city.

They want everybody to drive and pay the toll. Well, a transit – I'd say a transit – someone who cares about transit policy and public transit wants less people to drive, and the hope is with congestion pricing, it will incentivize the use of public transit and less people to drive. And the hope is with congestion pricing, it will incentivize the use of public transit and get it back up. Can I have, because its subways are horrible and they're not convenient.

They're okay. They're not horrible. I take them a lot. They're okay. They're not as good as, in terms of dealing with issues down there, it's not 2019, but it's also not an apocalypse. It's actually okay. Most of the time you ride a train, you'll be fine. If you not 2019, but it's also not an apocalypse. It's actually okay.

Most of the time you ride a train, you'll be fine. If you have a job where it's convenient, if you live close to it, if your hours are right, and if the walking in and out is not horrible to wherever it is that you're working,

like work at NYU and somewhere right here. You get the West 4th right here. That's good. It's very convenient. But there are many people who have opposite situation, and they planned on that when they chose where to live and where to work. And part of that plan was they're going to get a car, and this is where I'll park, and this is my budget.

And to upend all these people, I've never seen any policy in my lifetime that cared less about smacking people over the head. Nice people, people haven't done anything wrong with a sledgehammer. Four hundred dollars a month. I've never, ever. It's unprecedented to see the government contemplating that kind of cataclysmic effect on middle class people's lives. I just I'm dumbfounded by it. Go ahead, Dan. Well, some of the things that I think are positive about congestion pricing, assuming it can, first of all, emergency vehicles when when traffic is heavy just don't move. Now, assuming it can, first of all, emergency vehicles when traffic is heavy just don't move. Now, if we can make traffic lighter, that can be helpful there. I also liken it to, you know, in the old days, you couldn't get an exit seat on the airline unless you were just

lucky. Now you can pay to get an exit seat on an airplane, and it's great. Those who want it can pay for it. Those who don Those who want it can pay for it. Those who don't want it don't pay for it. Yeah, but people have to go to work. Yes, but they have options in terms of how they get there. They don't. That's the lie. If public transportation could be improved.

Well, they should improve it. Well, that's, I think, the goal, to use this money to improve public transportation. Listen, Elon Musk, who everybody hates, his great insight about the Tesla was, don't make people buy it because they want to improve public transportation. Listen, Elon Musk, who everybody hates, his great insight about the Tesla was don't make people buy it because they want to help the environment. Make it awesome,

and people will naturally want to buy it. If public transportation was convenient for people, they would take public transportation. By the way, less traffic immediately makes buses more convenient. Okay, but wait a second. Your relative young man. I'm going to bet you $1,000.

I might take it. That after 10 years of congestion pricing, the subways will be absolutely no different, number one. And number two, the schools will be no different as well. I can throw this public school. Because the failure to fix the subways is a failure of will. They don't want to crack down. They don't want to do the – it takes a tough man to make a tender chicken.

It is not easy to make the subways fit and clean and nice. They did it, though. It was done. It was better. They're also not that. I mean, they're not that great. They're not great, but I think the subways, my issue with the subway, obviously you have a crime issue.

But you're a young able-bodied guy. Right. Well, there aren't enough elevators. That's a big issue, the accessibility, the lack of reliability compared to European transit. I was going to give Biden credit that his infrastructure package is supposed to build a lot of accessibility for things like elevators. We need a lot more elevators.

I agree with you that the public transportation has to be made better. I am very sympathetic to that point. I've long said we have a big problem in New York and in the United States with building out transportation infrastructure. They do it in Tokyo. They do it in London. They do it all across the world very easily. We don't do it. We should have new subway lines. We're not getting there. And that's true. You saw that story in Los Angeles. They had that high-speed rail. They spent billions of dollars. They haven't laid one track. And Florida, I know we all hate DeSantis, but in Florida, much poorer state, lower taxes. They did it.

I am pretty sure New York is going to be more like Los Angeles, a typical blue state, than it will be like a red state. On this kind of thing, the red states are better. I agree that I would not bet on the MTA. What I would say, though, is the idea of lessening traffic and congestion on the streets is a noble goal. Yes. And incentivizing people to get out of their cars is a good thing. Now, what the tolls will be, I don't know. That hasn't been decided.

It will vary. It will vary. It shouldn't be on the back of the middle class. If they really want to do it, charge everybody more taxes. Across every New Yorker. It's not as if... Would that get people out of their cars, though? I don't think this is going to get people out of their cars.

What does the experience in London and other places tell us about congestion pricing? I have to study it more, but I think it's been... What a lot of European cities do, truthfully, that New York could do, but this might annoy people, is just start pedestrianizing more streets.

Right. I'm square. That's right. Doing a full pedestrianization of the urban core is something Europeans. But somebody made a very important point to me. They do. London doesn't get as cold as New York. We have months in New York where it is horrible to walk outside.

And for people above a certain age, it's inhumane. And they're the ones who can't afford the congestion pricing. This is a crazy idea. I don't know why. That's where you get more people onto buses, too. That's the thing, improving the buses. Buses take forever. But if there's less traffic, the buses move better.

No problem. You didn't like getting up at 6.30, now get up at 5.30. My grandmother took the bus in Montreal, which is much colder than New York, into her 80s. I think that native New Yorkers— And maybe we can subsidize the elderly or those in need. I just want to—we have to go. I just want to make the point clearer. If we do need to do something, I just don't think it should be on the backs of the middle class.

The rich people will pay the congestion pricing. They're not going to change anything. The only people who will be forced, and this is what we're trying to, we're trying to make it so expensive that you have no choice but to upend your life and do the stuff you clearly don't want to do because we are going to charge you so much money

that you have no choice. We're your government. We're your fiduciary. We love you. This is not the way a government does it. The way a government should do it is either spread it around, I don't know,

or, God forbid, really try to get some more subway lines, really bring public transportation to everybody's door in some way so that people want to do this. Charge a little bit of a toll. What they're contemplating is, in my opinion, it's a bunch of politicians who don't drive. A lot of politicians do drive, actually. You'd be surprised.

A lot of them get – because you get the plates. You can be surprised. A lot of them get, because you get the plates, you can park illegally. Well, or whatever it is, what I'm saying is that I don't, if this, if the skin off the nose of the people voting for this approached the skin off the nose that the middle

class people are going to have to go through, they would never vote for this. That's all I'm saying. Their ox, in some way, their ox, the people who are implementing this are not having their ox gored. And they're going there and they're going to do this to the to other people. And I just think it's horrible. And I've yet to hear a good argument. Well, this notion that you brought up about people expected to be able to drive easily into the city or not easily, but at least without paying congestion pricing, and this is upending their expectations, it's an interesting argument.

But, of course, if we extend that out, then you can't make any changes. Well, they've faded in over 10 years, so people have a chance to adjust more. Okay, but that's not an argument saying congestion pricing is bad on its face. That's an argument about the implementation. I think it's bad on its face. Are people supposed to pay an extra $20 just to go to a movie in New York or a Broadway show? I mean, at some point, people run out of money. You take the subway or the bus. Yeah, but listen.

I don't know if you're aware of how many people come from outside of Manhattan. Yeah. And how the further you get out, the less and less transportation is actually available to you. They're also playing with fire in terms of what impact it will have on the engine of New York City, which is tourism and business. They don't know. I don't completely disagree with you.

I do think this was a policy that was passed originally before COVID. And I do think the impact on the urban core, that's a real concern. It's something I've written about where we're not talking about 2019 New York. We're talking about a slightly different New York and how that will interact with that. I can't say for sure. I do think we have to get cars off the road. I do think this is a way to do it. I do think there are risks.

I also, like I said, I would view it more positively if you're not imposing the extra toll on people who already pay tolls to come in. If you do that, it's going to get a lot tougher. And start small. There might be a Laffer curve, as it were, of raising revenue. But it's rational, though, if you're going to toll the Battery Tunnel and toll out from the Hudson River bridges, tolling from the east side makes sense, too.

It's strange you can toll hop like that right now, truthfully. Yeah, well, toll hopping is a kind of congestion pricing. Sort of. It just creates congestion in the neighborhoods cars have to drive through. The rich people always come out on top. Well, yeah, it's good to be rich, but that's nothing new. Also, the notion of the rich people, if they get what they want and all the middle class people are taking the subways and the buses and the rich people are driving into work and unfettered in their big cars with no traffic.

That's not a nice look either. You know, like, is that what we close our eyes and that's what we want? Middle class people don't like. We went to New York where only rich people. Middle class people don't like sitting in traffic either. It's a soul destroying experience. What does that tell you? It tells you that, like, you think that $20, like, people sit for a long time, horrible, in traffic.

To me, that says they really need to drive. That's an interesting point. Yeah, but, like, this is an obvious point. Like, it's so awful to sit in traffic. Wouldn't that be enough to get you to take the subway? Like, that's worth a lot to sit in traffic. Well, that's interesting. Ross, you say what?

He agrees with me. Is the soul-destroying traffic enough to get you out of your car? Yeah, why isn't that enough to get people out of their car? Because it's not convenient for them to get out of the car. For whatever it is, it's outweighed by the fact that they need to drive their kids to school in the morning. They need to go pick up groceries. They need to park. Some people have jobs they need to get around.

The subway's not near. It's cold. They have a bad back. There's a million fucking reasons why people drive. And we know that's true because otherwise they wouldn't sit in traffic. An interesting point. Interesting point. We need to –

I have to mull that. I do think money though is – money more than traffic will incentivize some people to leave their cars. And some people, it's the opposite. And some people, it's the opposite. Some people won't sit in traffic for any amount of money. Yeah. Speaking of soul-destroying, as long as we're discussing transportation, you know, flying is just – it is absolutely horrific.

What about high-speed rail in America, Ross? I think definitely I would love to have it in the Northeast Corridor, especially. I think we would be ripe for it. Again, go to Japan. They have great high-speed rail. You can cover a six-hour drive in two hours. It's wonderful. They have a huge fare jumping problem in Japan, you know. Do they? I'm kidding. Well, no, but what they have is they have much better gates. You can't jump it because they have gates that actually really keep people out. But also you go to a metro in Paris.

It's amazing. Can I just ask one quick question, Ross? Yes, yes, you can. If it's a choice between a – how's the flight to Chicago? That's two hours? About. uh a what how does how what how's the the flight to chicago that's two hours about would you choice between a two-hour flight to chicago or a six-hour high-speed rail trip which do you choose would it be probably would be about six hour uh it would depend i mean that's where i think the high-speed rail in america makes the most sense for like the northeast corridor california part parts of america i Most people would probably choose a two-hour plane ride

over a six-hour train ride. I would probably do the train. I like trains, but I think most people would fly. But I do think going New York to Boston to Philly to D.C., you can run a high speed rail. But we already kind of have that. But it's not fast, and it's crappy. Amtrak's terrible.

If you go to Japan, you'd be doing New York to Philly in 30 minutes. If you're running on the Shinkansen, they call it the bullet train. If you had that style of train, you'd be getting to Washington in 45 minutes. That's how you'd move. Philly would be a real commute. We have to go. I didn't quite find where we differ. I'm pretty sure we differ on rent control. Yeah, I definitely support rent control and rent stabilization. But maybe we can

come back and we can debate rent control. And maybe we should have an epic debate and before we do it, I'll send you my articles. You send me yours. So we don't I don't like when you have a debate

and somebody pulls out a fact. I don't know if it's true or not true. I like to have everybody dealing from the same set of facts. It's a better way to debate. I would like to say, in conclusion, I would take the six-hour train ride. There you go. Thank you, Ross Barkin. Podcast at ComedySally.com. Once again,

is our email for comments, questions, and suggestions. What do you think of Ross Barkin? I thought he was a good guest. Maybe you disagree. I hope you don't. He's a great guest. I just wanted to make sure his Substack got mentioned. We mentioned it at the beginning. What's the name of your Substack? It's a political occurrence. If you search

rossbarkin.substack.com I'm also surprised he lives in Bay Ridge. I thought for sure I thought for sure a more hip place like Williamsburg. Bougie. No, not that Bougie. Bougie, yeah. You've seen Bougie, didn't you? Outerborough. NYU professor. Anyway, thank you for listening. That is all. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.