The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Patrice O'Neal, Michael Che & Antisemitism

Episode Date: February 28, 2021

Patrice O'Neal documentary, SNL & antisemitic jokes and how Noam's old friend almost killed him.

Who's coming on the podcast today? First of all, we're recording. Sherrod and your friend Diana Taylor that you invited. Where is she? She's not here yet because we're going to get some alone time with Sherrod. Thank you. Okay, well, I love Sherrod, even though he dissed the comedy seller on Instagram. Are we started?

Okay, do the introduction. Let him introduce you. Go ahead. I do an intro. Sherrod's going to knock your socks off. Here we go. This is the man who needs an introduction. This is Live from the Table, the official podcast of New York's world-famous comedy

seller, coming at you on SiriusXM 99 Raw Dog. And on the Laugh Button Podcast Network, we have with us today, this is Dan Natter. But of course, Noam Gorman is here as always, the owner of the comedy seller, Perry Lashon Brand, and our dear friend, who has not joined us for a while, Mr. Sherrod Small. Yes! Writer, actor, producer, radio personality, all around performer, a veteran of numerous TV appearances, and host of the popular podcast, Race Wars.

Welcome, Sherrod, to our program. Thank you, Natty. Yes, Natto! I promised you an introduction, and I delivered. I mean, you delivered, man. That was a spin move, a shake, and a dunk. Thank you. Thank you. That's what I aspire to. We would like to get into...

Well, there's so much going on in the world of comedy. There's the Patrice documentary that recently was on Comedy Central. And, of course, there's the controversy regarding Michael Shea and a joke that he made on SNL. Noam, where should we go first? It's up to you, Daniel. Let's go to Patrice. Noam, no, he barely knew Patrice. Patrice, Patrice.

Okay, let's just to review, Patrice O'Neill was a beloved comic who died about 10 years ago. Yes, we love him this much. And recently there was a Comedy Central documentary all about him. I will admit to not having been close to Patrice, but always enjoyed it.

By the way, that broke his heart. You may not know that. It didn't break his heart. That funeral thing you said was funny as hell, though. Oh, it's true, and I've said that on the show before. What I said was is that I didn't go to Patrice's funeral. I wanted to go to Patrice's funeral because it's a funeral of a... You know, a comedian funeral funeral is always gonna be interesting,

and there's gonna be famous people there, and they're gonna say interesting things. But I just didn't feel it was... I didn't know the guy that well, and I just imagined Patrice looking down and saying, Madden! What the fuck he doing here? So, I didn't go for that reason.

I felt out of respect, out of respect, I didn't go. That's why I had to call the Comedy Cellar and Comedy Central out, because they know they barely tolerated Patrice when he was alive. Hold on a second. Why are you calling the Comedy Cellar out? What did I have to do? I had nothing to do with that documentary.

No, he was barely there in those days. He was still Mr. Capu-Waugh. Hold on a second. One thing at a time. I'll get to that, and I agree with you. But I had nothing to do with the documentary. Oh, no, that was the documentary. Documentary was great. I thought it was great. I just thought more black people should have been

in it but i thought it was good but what i mean but how many call the comedy still ever we didn't put ourselves in the documentary they put it no but somebody had to mention it and why not me from all the guidelines so the truth is that that um we had a difficult uh time with patrice for a number of reasons but i'll start at the end first patrice and i uh had a difficult time with Patrice for a number of reasons, but I'll start at the end first. Patrice and I had a nice relationship toward the end, but he was already kind of hitting it big and he wasn't really interested in doing clubs at that time. I don't know if you remember the last year or two,

he really didn't do much. But it wasn't just about performing on the stage. I remember the last years Patrice would just drive up in his truck and not even come inside because he thought he wasn't treated right in there. No, no, but at the very end, he did start coming inside. I had a conversation with him. It was one of those Opie and Anthony shows, and he destroyed.

I don't know if you remember there. And I had a chance, and I told him. I mean, the thing was that he had a thing with my father because he was, he was extremely nasty to my father. Not nasty is the wrong word. He was trying to be funny, but he, but he humiliated my father in front of a lot of people. And,

and that was, that was, you know, that, that really, that pissed Esty off. But everybody knows this about Patrice. He only humiliated the people he loved.

No, no. I was talking to him. He, that actually was unforgivable to Esty. My father, although it bothered him, he knew enough to just let it go, no matter how much it bothered him. It made him one of us.

It made him one of us. But it really bothered him. But Esty never forgave him. But really, Sherrod, more importantly than that, without any regard to patrice's uh formidable talents and um you know all the all the things he had going for him he was a very erratic dangerous act who was capable of of just torching the room he threw a chair one time he he'd be um he would just you know take a flamethrower to the show.

And, you know- I was there when Kevin Brennan and Greg, I broke up the Kevin Brennan, Greg Rogel fight in the hallway. That night, that's the over. First of all, those are white people. They still had spots the next week. Yeah, they were white.

No, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about, I don't care if Patrice had fights or opposite. I'm talking about to the audience. I'm talking about doing a, you know, he would literally go off on the audience if he felt like it. He didn't give a shit. And it was very, it was disrespectful. I mean, they brought this out in the documentary. I mean, I'm not the only person to say this.

It doesn't mean I didn't like the guy, but he had a thing where he just, if he felt like it, he would just trash the place. I don't know. But I think when Patrice did it, it was always out of something that was pretty honest. Yes, of course it was honest.

I've seen other comedians do it just out of anger. Yeah, but Sherrod, I'm going to tell you something you don't know about Jewish people. Oh, I can't wait to hear this. We're in business to make money. And it was difficult because in the end, the customers came first.

I don't mean Patrice was banned or anything, but it was just, you know, like it was difficult with him because you didn't know what could happen that would be damaging to the business and and um but that's where it was and that got better over the years and as i said i it ended nicely with him and but you're right we were not his home club i think he liked to hang out in the olive tree but we we had a rocky relationship with him if they interviewed me i would have said exactly that you know me i wouldn't have ever pretended i kept it 100 though didn't i i kept it 100 on instagram can i just uh yeah relate my i don't have many memories of patrice at the comedy cellar because as you said it wasn't

his home club um but one memory i do have is there was a waitress i forgot her name let's say it was amy it wasn't but let's say it it was. And she was wearing a belly shirt, and her flab was coming out from under the shirt. And Patrice was sitting at the comic's table, and he goes, "'Amy got a belly! And it's turning me on! I don't know what it is! That belly is turning me on!"

And we were all laughing, of course, including the waitress in question, who I named Amy. But, anyway, that's my Patrice memory. He was real. He was kept keeping it real. But, I mean, when Patrice felt like it, he would destroy, you know? I mean, this guy, this guy. But he didn't care sometimes.

A lot of the time, you know? But even him not caring, I think, was some of the greatest sex of the time you know but even him care not caring i think was some of the greatest sets of all time no i disagree no they couldn't some of them could have been but other times he'd be he would it would be um you know belligerent we know because he was one of those guys who were really he was really in the moment so if he he struck a nerve, he was going to go to that nerve. He wasn't going to avoid it or do some hat joke and say, Hey,

the waitstaff, tip him. He ain't going to do that dumb shit. He was going to go and stay on that nerve. And it made people uncomfortable. I get that. Oh, by the way,

that's one of his pet peeves. He hates when comics say tip the waitstaff. Yeah. The only thing worse than tip the waitstaff is support live. Thank you for supporting live comedy. It's like we're charity cases. You know? Like we make a wish, kids.

Yeah. No, you come here if you want to come here. If you don't want to come here, do not come. Do not support live comedy because we need money. Support it because you want to support it. Speaking of live comedy, I just finished a show, the 3 p.m. show, at the Comedy Cellar tonight. Oh, the Mint Show? It's the Black History Month special finished a show, the 3 p.m. show, at the Comedy Cellar tonight. Oh, the Mint Show?

It's the Black History Month special show. I did the Mint Show. I did a whole bunch of black history jokes, Dan. You'd be proud of me. Well, I certainly would, because if you don't know your history, you don't know where you're going. You don't know where you're going. I had to bring up Crispin's Addicts.

He was more than just a black dude who got shot. He had a whole life. Well, he was the first person? He was shot at Lexington In Concord right No he was shot At Boston Boston, Massachusetts

Boston, Massachusetts In a state building But he was half African American And he was half Native His mother was a Native When he He escaped

Like 27 He ran away Joined He became a whaler He was a A whaler And he worked on trade boats because whaler was the only occupation in the colonies where black man wasn't judged for being black.

You was only judged by your experience and your time there. So a lot of, you know, ex-slaves and runaways and free blacks did, was whalers. If you could throw a harpoon, I don't care what color you are. Yeah, that's how much the white man scared him, that he would rather kill the biggest beast that was ever on the planet with a stick and a spear than deal with Whitey and his aggression. Whitey

is a bit much. Whitey is a bit much. Big Whale is the other Whitey, you know? That's right. That's right. Moby Dick? Yes, he was. And of course, Moby Dick remember Queequeg, who, I don't know if he's right moby dick yes he was um and of course moby dick remember queequeg who i don't know if he was black or native or whatever he was but anyway i don't want to get too into literature here but um chris mix addicts uh we remember him today yes and he was shot and they say in the paper first of all when he ran away they didn't say a runaway african

slave they said uh a mulatto fellow that's how to describe them said a mulatto fellow. That's how they described him. Mulatto. A mulatto fellow. That was an acceptable word. That was an acceptable word until very recently. Mulatto was never... Yeah, but that's how they mostly described children between Natives and Africans as mulattos.

I see. But yeah, then he was... Who else was on the show? It was an all African American show Yeah, it was all the blacks and the blacks That's how they did it Who else was on the show? Seton Smith was on the show

And Artie Fuqua And Tony Woods And Monroe Martin And You know like there's black Twitter? Yeah, they called it Barbecue Night Was it a good show? and call that black cellar you know like there's black twitter yeah they call the barbecue night this comedy stuff was it a good show

it was a great show great show Mustafa was happy it was Mustafa's show with mint comedy so he was happy and everything went great I'll go I'm glad

yes I like how you stand away though just in case charges come through from Cuomo know I've never been around That's exactly right Out of sight out of mind

I know Well no Look it's not my show And I And you're right I didn't want to be involved I mean there's They're allowed to do it

Because you're allowed to do live Broadcasting Whatever it is whatever the whatever the law is if they test everybody so yeah everybody got tested i still got my green band on i had them i had their lawyer they got a a hot shot lawyer who went through the whole thing with me and why it was legal and um i said okay fine they can use they do of course and uh and uh then i and i let them have the room for i'm not involved in the the i don't make any money I said, okay, fine. They can use it. They do, of course. And then I let them have the room for it. I'm not involved in the, I don't make any money or anything.

I'm not involved in it. I like how you separate yourself even more. I don't know. It's exactly, I don't want any part of it. You don't have to create the LLC just to do it. You do benefit, I guess, from some publicity, I suppose. The truth is, I love Mustafa, and I don't want to say no. But that's it.

But they ran it tight, though. It was a tight ship. Everybody got tested at the beginning. They kept you in a little waiting area before you got to mingle again with everybody else. But I don't like stuff stuck on my nose. I don't like anything stuck that deep up my nose unless it's a Coke straw. Oh, Sherrod.

Have you gotten the vaccine, Sherrod? No, I didn't get the vaccine yet. Are you going to? When I go, I'm going where all the white people go. I'm not going to the Harlem truck. In all seriousness, in all seriousness, though,

do you have any misgivings about the vaccine? Because that's a big issue. No, you don't. You know, I might tease in and bring up Tuskegee every now and then. If it's any consolation, if this helps at all in terms of the black community's trust in the vaccine, it was invented by a Turkish guy.

Yeah, Turkish dude. A white guy, per se. Holy shit, now you tell me? Why wasn't it, Moderna, I believe, that was a Turkish thing. Lisbeth is the big one. Pfizer. I heard it came in a falafel.

Stuxnet, Stuxnet. I love Milk Stroke, should've got more. So I do want to get to Che at some point I don't know how we want I only bring it up because That anti-Semite I also want to talk about Mike Pesco Who's a friend of this show

A friend of mine got fired at Slate Or indefinitely suspended at Slate For So Sherrod and I were arguing Not arguing about this actually i think charron kind of agreed with me about this this guy no there's a couple weeks ago this guy at the times mcneil got fired for saying the n-word when someone had asked him a question with the where they said the n-word to him and he repeated it back in the question. They fired him for that. And which, you know, I disagree with.

I think Sherrod even disagreed with. Yes, it's silly. Yeah. So then, but now it gets worse. So now this, so Mike Peska, who let me tell you about Mike Peska, he is a clearly left of center. I don't think he's far left at all,

but he's a very, very mainstream Democrat. democrat he is doesn't share any positions with me on any of the conservative nutty things that i believe whatever it is this guy is a um he's a try he he moderates uh democratic debates that he's during yeah um he went on a Slack channel, apparently at Slate where he works. He does a podcast there called The Gist. He did for like seven years, very popular podcast and respected podcast. And he said, he thought essentially that what happened to McNeil was unfair

and that people ought to be able to say the word when they're referring to it or quoting it or discussing it. I'm not, I'm putting words in his mouth. You can read online what's there. And they fired him for that. He didn't even say the word. They fired him for the opinion.

They fired him for the fucking opinion. And it's come to that. Who fired him? Other white people. Yeah, well, somebody black did complain, but I'm sure it was mostly white people. What black person complained about that? That he's, why would that?

That's just dumb. When you can't even bring up the word, or you can't even say somebody else has the right to say the word when they're discussing the word. That's when we get out of control. It's like, we talk about malice when you throw this word around, not just saying it. Sure, Ron, could could i on a related note

can i can i finish one more thing or let me just say bring it up because we have we have the uh diana taylor coming so we don't have all the time in the world i just want to say the one thing about this comment i would give it to sharon so the black guy who um was in the story at slate said the following wait is this maybe i maybe i misread it i'm not sure this is the black the black person i think it is though he says i feel outraged a slate staffer told me about pesca's participation in the conversation i can't believe i had to watch him enthusiastically provoke people on whether or not it's appropriate to use a racist slur another state slavered anger where is the small... Jesus Christ, I got the wrong

quote here. This is the race wars, by the way. They run a tight ship over there. You run a tighter ship than this. One second, one second, one second. Please come more prepared to the show next time. Ladies and gentlemen, come to rehearsal.

Anyway, he said that it was a small ask to not have to to just to have oh yeah he says extremely he says okay this is it john anderson a black staff member at slade who hosted the third season of the podcast slow burn disagreed he says for black employees it's an extremely small ask to not hear that particular slur and not have to debate about whether it's okay for small ask to not hear that particular slur and not have to debate about whether it's okay for white employees to use that particular slur. And everybody was all saying, well, yeah, it is a small ask. And I'm like, wait, to not have to hear somebody call you that or whatever, that is obviously a small ask. Nobody should have to hear the word. But if you're a journalist, I think it's a very big ask

to not have to hear other journalists debate what was one of the top stories in the country about a reporter at the New York Times who got fired for using the word. And by the way, the New York Times quotes the words in its article. Slate quotes the word in his article. Ta-Nehisi Coates. Ta-Nehisi Coates.

Ta-Nehisi Coates believes it's okay for white people to quote the word. John McWhorter in The Atlantic wrote it. So it is a debate which people of all colors are on all sides. You're a journalist. And I'm like, yeah, I think it's a very, I don't think, I think it's a huge ask to think that because you have an opinion about it, the entire newsroom has to shut down and not discuss it. Nobody's saying the word.

They're just talking about what happened. Silly. It's silly shit. Treat everybody like we're in kindergarten. It's like we're adults. We can hear the word and know that you're just talking about the word, but not using the word. It's like everything's not that simple, but that's how we caught up in it's more liberal shit like that liberal left shit that get them

fired i'm happy to hear you say that shot because you know my whole life yours too where you're i'm only a little bit older than you well people people people are very bona fide you know left wing credentials would use the word randy newman you know the randy newman the guy who does the disney songs oh yeah he had a famous song where he was was making fun of lester maddox and louise diana he says keep in the n words but he said that down you know and he was singing in character yeah he was he was lauded for this right yeah okay okay we gotta go now and act like we don't know the difference yeah i don't use the word i don't i don't even quote the word anymore i mean have a quick advice but i just real quick before we get into michael chai i wrote a

book and in the book is a is is a character who is black and a comedian and uses that word. And in the book, I write, I use N asterisk, asterisk, asterisk, instead of the actual N word. You're definitely going to get- You're going to get a six letter word, but go ahead. Well, whatever I use, I use N in a series of asterisks. Yeah. Right. Is even that going to get me into trouble?

No. But you got people nowadays going back into Tom Sawyer and taking out nigga Joe. And Sherrod, you know, you know what, you know something about me that almost nobody knows. And I'm going to virtue signal for a second here because you happen to know about it. Do you remember when I got invited to do a show on and cool me as network that time.

And I went and watched the show and they were doing some humor that disturbed me. And I didn't want to go do that. Do you remember that? Yeah, I remember. You told me to go ahead and do it. I remember, not Kumiya's show, it was Bill Schultz's show. And Bill Schultz is not doing that kind of show. Because Bill's show is different than what the network yeah seems to tend to be i'm just trying to make the point that a lot of comedians were doing that show all

those shows in this network and i'm saying like i think it i don't have like tolerance for that kind of stuff i just think i just think it's night and day when people in good faith are discussing it's like saying i don't want to see a swastika ever again. I don't care. I don't care why. I don't care if it's a documentary about Nazi Germany. It's painful. I don't want to see a swastika ever again.

Well, no. I mean, you know, and even survivors of the camps wouldn't be given that courtesy. And I'm sure it goes through them like a knife to see it but they would have to understand well yes but but a lot of them would want it to be seen so never happened again it's like if we bury all these things what's stopping it from popping back up i disagree i think it never happened or it was never there yeah anyway i never believed in this if people see it then it won't happen again i think if anything people see it they get an idea like that's interesting that can happen too yeah we can make it too sexy to be very clear away with it maybe we can pull it off

i want to be very clear so i don't get in trouble i i recognize i can see that the rules have changed i do not i do not quote it anymore because to do so would be I think defiant and and I'm not looking to be defiant on this I'm I will I will obey the rule the rules of polite company and I know what they are now they're not what they were 10 years ago but they are what they are now so I I am not saying that I want to go I I'm not I don't miss my opportunity to quote the word it's not it's not that at all it's just still standing in a house by yourself no between me and you but but but it's very painful to see good people people with families people with job losing everything with a stigma attached to it to boot

slime a slime that it's not like they just lost the job go work somewhere else because they were simply trying to discuss something because they were on the right on the right side of of the issue you know they just they just said something and they repeated it back and now finished and now it's even worse now a guy who just says i didn't think that was right that that happened to that guy now he's finished this is not america this is white America. But you gotta understand, this is white shit. This is white-on-white crime. This ain't got nothing to do with black people. Ain't no black person get this person

fired. This is white guilt and white people who's being like this. I'm not like him, so I'm gonna fire him. So now y'all know I'm like that. Sherrod, get this guy Joel Anderson who said this on your Race Wars podcast. Oh yeah, I bring him on, definitely. He's right up our alley. Yeah, yeah, I bring him on, definitely. He's right up our alley.

Yeah, yeah, I'll send you his name. I mean, I'd love to be on it, but if I can't be on it, I'd just sit there and watch too. I'd be very interested to hear it. Yeah, I'll have you on with it. Joel Anderson, huh? And he's the one who got initially fired or he's the one who got secondary fired? No, Joel Anderson is the guy who said that it's a small ask.

He's the African American gentleman who said it's a small ask. But I don't want to be on it, actually, because I don't want to – it don't be coming from me to debate him. I can debate you because we know each other all this time, but it wouldn't look right. But I am just sitting here and you talk to him. Yeah, I want to talk to him. Sounds like a good talk.

I mean, that's where we solve things. Michael Che. Michael Che. Go ahead, Dave. Good things Michael Che I'll just give a brief introduction For those of you who don't know and everybody knows But in case you don't Michael Che, SNL news anchor Of Weekend Update on SNL Also head writer at SNL

Also a black man Made the following joke On Weekend Update Israel has announced that they have vaccinated 50% of their population. I'm guessing, I'm sorry, Israel has announced they have vaccinated half of their population. I'm guessing it was the Jewish half. The implication being that Israel is prioritizing Jews over non-Jews, creating a scandal. People say this is anti-Semitism. It is factually incorrect because Israel indeed has vaccinated all citizens,

regardless of religion or ethnic group or whatever. It is, in fact, Palestinian Arabs from the territories that aren't getting vaccinated, but they made an agreement with Israel that they would be in charge of their own health system. So people have gone as far as calling for Michael Che's firing, or at least that he should apologize. Others have just said that SNL should apologize and that various people had various opinions. But anyway, most comics are defending Michael Che, including myself. Yeah. I don't think that, first of all, it's a joke about, it's really a joke about any underserved community in any country. So it could have been about African Americans in America. It's not really anti-Semitic.

It could have been about any underserved community during the pandemic in any country. That's first of all. That's the joke. Right. That's the joke. It's like you said, America got 50% of the... I know probably the white half. Yes, that would have been an equivalent joke.

The only counterpoint I would make to that is, is there are so many people out there willing to... And we go through... This point comes up oftentimes. It's like, you might say something completely that's without meaning to be racist but it might encourage racists to be racist so the argument being is that it might this might encourage people that already feel a certain way about israel and or jews to to misinterpret or to

to to run with it if you will and say if all those if all those clips of the hasid without masks on cutting each other in the middle of covid didn't encourage you to be anti-semitic this might put them over the top shirai what do you think i mean can it be can you say the same about how they used to say about music how music caused this young teenager to kill somebody or the music did this it's like what it's going to influence what hatred so let me say i i think i'm i'm considered credible with our audience on issues

uh jews i'm like a poster child for ilhan omar's uh So let me say, I think I'm considered credible with our audience on issues, Jews. I'm like a poster child for Ilhan Omar's dual loyalty Jew, all right? I mean, my heart is very much sympathetic to Israel. So let me say, Michael Che, who I know very well, is not even slightly, not possible, not one ounce of blood anti-Semitic. How well do you really know Michael Che? He comes by. I mean, I agree that he's not, but I don't think he knows.

I know well. I think Noam is more anti-Semitic than Michael Che. Let me say how well I know him. I don't want to try to pretend like we're buddies. I've spent, I I think two different times have long conversations in the olive tree about the world and issues and whatever it is where we all said stuff which we wouldn't want you know repeated it right right I shouldn't put it that way we all said stuff very very honest to each other you know? And I feel like I know very well where he's coming from on issues of the world.

I think I know that very well. And I also know his spirit. And clearly he's not anti-Semitic. What's that? Not at all. Not at all anti-Semitic. So now there is a reality you zoom out, and there's a reality which lends itself to a simplistic joke,

which is that it's true. Israel is getting vaccinated, and the Arabs is in the occupied territories or not. And people don't know all the details. Well, actually, Israel has a lot of arabs as well and obviously and i looked i did a lot of research on today and dan is right in the oslo not ruining a joke with facts no no wait what i'm gonna say what i'm that's what i'm saying is that you can't expect people to to go through all this thing and know everything about the the

what's going on there the the the the broad contours of the joke are correct, which is that the Jews are getting, and that's, you know, it is painful. I can't lie. It is painful as a Jew, as an Israeli, to hear the joke because I know that people take that almost as the news, that in that way, you know know they don't really like i said they don't hear much more they hear a joke they see a headline as a jew and israeli you remember

a time but it would have been like that so it's still a funny i'm just saying you know people are so uninformed and and and so i hate i hate to i hate to see that misinformation pass into the general public even a little bit. If you get your news from Weekend Update, you're an idiot already. You're stupid as fuck. If that's when you get your news, it's time to learn what happened. You're dumb. That idea of

policing jokes and saying it's anti-Semitic, they go too far. Criticize SNL if you want for a joke which was based on incorrect facts, let's say. You don't have to call it anti-Semitic. Since when are we criticizing jokes based on facts or incorrect facts or whatever? It's like it was fucking funny.

Like, it was a joke and it was funny. And, you know, people got offended because it touched a nerve. Right. Yeah. Maybe they should be looking at that instead and give, instead of giving Michael chase shit for making a fucking joke. Why did you, I didn't find it. I can't, I can't, I can't lie. I'm not the audience for that joke. I didn't find it funny. I mean, I can't, I'm not, I don't, i didn't find it funny i mean i know i can't i'm not i don't hope you understand what i mean by saying that i can't help myself i know i know

i know it's constructed as a funny joke it's just that i'm the target of it in a sense and you know like like it hurt a little bit it's like you told a really funny joke about how ugly i am i yeah i get it but you know i'm the one you're calling ugly. So, you know, I can't pretend. You can do that same joke in any country about Serbs or fucking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Relations. I mean. Any Serb community, put that in and fit a country in,

and that's the joke. Yes, absolutely right. It's got nothing to do with Jews. Absolutely. That's true, except that it was about Jews. And as, I mean, I'm also the target of it and I did think it was funny you don't love Israel you don't love Israel here we go

in fight you said you were Jewish and Israeli you kind of lost me there you were neither born in Israel nor do you hold Israeli citizenship you speak two words of Hebrew and you don't like falafel call them out first of all falafel is cultural appropriation. It's Arabic food.

But, but second of all, both my parents are Israeli. I spent, I spent, I spent a lot of time in Israel and I, and the only reason I don't have an Israeli citizenship is because I don't want it because it's a hassle going in and out of the country. But they tried more than once when I traveled there. I guess it depends on your definition. My parents are both Canadian and I see the maple leaf does nothing for me i am no but i grew up steeped in no one would be considered israeli by israeli i mean any gene could be

israeli tomorrow no no no no i grew up my father ran an israeli. My grandparents all retired to Israel, for Christ's sake. The fact that you ran an Israeli nightclub is less relevant than the fact that- Well, playing Israeli music. I'm saying everything, the Olive Tree Service is Israeli football. All my grandparents live in Israel or did. That's why you're Israeli. But let's not get too sidetracked. The fact is, is you just made my point though,

which is that you didn't think it was funny. You're the target. I'm also the target. And I thought it was hilarious. That having been said, it stings a little bit because we know that there's some fucking truth to it. But you're mad at Michael Che for that. Well, okay. So I understand is i think the joke is funny but yeah it's stung i don't know why

why would people get more mad at michael che and not at lauren michaels like he's asleep behind the wheel all these jokes he's jewish why don't you get mad at the fact that he's canadian getting vaccinated that's who you should be mad at what why aren't why get mad at the fact that people aren't getting vaccinated. That's who you should be mad at. Mad at what? Why get mad at Lorne Michael or Michael Che? Why aren't we mad at the fact that these people aren't getting vaccinated? Well, Terri-El, that's where you're going to have to, I mean, I don't want to get into it. Number one, there's not enough vaccine to go around, right?

No, no, no. The Jews definitely need to get it first. No, no no what i'm saying is that so it's not as if it's not as if it's not as if it were possible what i'm saying look it's not everybody if your name starts with greenberg no no no let's let's get this right now what i'm saying is that when there's not enough parachutes to go around you have you have a different you have a difficult ethical problem everybody who is a citizen of israel arab or israeli is getting the vaccine i was being i was gaza this is some of this is important to think about gaza uh israel withdrew from gaza it is not occupied territory anymore although people will say that's surrounded there's a

blockade but the blockade also comes from from e. But also there's a blockade because there's weapons and everything coming out. Now, the West Bank is clearly occupied territory, but I actually have it here. It says here, this is from the Oslo Accords, powers and responsibilities in the sphere of health in the West Bank and Gaza Strip will be transferred. This is the exact quote from the agreement they both signed, will be transferred to the Palestinian side, including the health insurance system. The Palestinian side shall continue to apply the present standards of vaccination of Palestinians and shall improve them accordingly to

international acceptance standards in the field. So that's the agreement. Who signed it? Jared Kushner? Yasser Arafat signed that. Now there is, there is also an article about, there is also an article about the Geneva Convention, which people think could supersede the Oslo Accords. But in the Geneva Convention, it says,

there can be no question of making the occupying power alone responsible for the whole burden of organizing hospitals and taking measures to control epidemics. The task above all, one for competence, but it's possible that national authorities will perfectly well be able to look after the health of the population.

In such case, the occupying power will not have to intervene. But how can the national power be able to do that when they can't even fly things in and out of the country? No, no.

In the West Bank, they can fly things out. The fact is that they are now getting the vaccine. If you read about it, the Palestinian Authority is buying the vaccine elsewhere, number one. Number two, by, you know, in tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of doses. Number two, the Arab world, let's not pretend otherwise, is sparsely populated and filthy rich. And filthy rich.

And there's, I mean, there are Arab emirates who could buy every Palestinian in the West Bank a vaccine, and they wouldn't even miss it. And they don't. So it's not simply a matter of being occupied. So if you mix all that in, and I think what I just read from the Oslo Accords to any fair-minded person would have to say, I better stop and look into this because that seems pretty explicit and that was negotiated, right? So it's complex. I would be very happy to see Israel, especially now that they're getting ahead of the vaccine and most of the country is getting vaccinated, I hope they really prioritize humanitarianism

and get that vaccine into the occupied territories. You know as well as I do. Hold on, because it's the right thing to do. And it's also, it's good for them. It's good for Israel too to do it. However, I also shudder to think that if the shoe were on the other foot, if any of the Jews would be getting the vaccine.

But you know as well as I do that some of those rich Arabs are busy right now killing journalists. They can't be. Did you think that Lorne Michaels sat down and read the Oswald Accord to Michael Che before he said he could take that joke?

No, but but but you know, this is where it, this is where it gets, it gets dicey because no, of course he didn't, nor should he have to. But there are other jokes told from time to time where people say, you know, how could you say that about other groups? How could you say that? You know, why, you know, it's not true. It's, you know, so I guess a lot depends on whose ox is gored let's

be honest um but my so what do i mean we i think it's pretty clear that lauren michaels was aware there are a lot of people who think that i'm sorry there are a lot of people who are defending michael che and i'm one of them but there are a lot of people who if this were a gay joke uh would not be so forgiving how are you gonna do the gate because make it a gay joke, would not be so forgiving. How are you going to do the gay? Make it a gay joke and let me hear it. I don't know. I don't know. I'm up with a gay, equivalent gay joke.

Or trans joke. Wait, Diana's here. Okay, but let me just finish this stuff. Go ahead, Dan. Finish. Lorne Michaels, I think it's pretty clear, was aware of the joke before it aired. I mean, he's pretty hands-on, and there's a dress rehearsal, I assume he watched.

Don't you think that Lorne Michaels clearly could have predicted the backlash? And if so, why did he let the joke go on the air? Was it a publicity? I would have let it go on the air, too. I don't think he thought it was a big deal. I would have let it go on the air just like I would let it go at the comedy cellar because. Wouldn't you have predicted a backlash or big deal. I would have let it go on the air just like I would let it go at the comedy cellar because wouldn't you, wouldn't you have predicted a backlash or no, would you not have predicted the back?

Maybe I would have, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't buckle to that. If they want to do the joke, I would, I would let it go on the air. Yeah. I think what I'm trying to really make a,

a, a subtle point here, which is that you don't have to like the joke to defend it. You know, Lauren is a producer and is a businessman. Is it good for business to let a joke like that go on the air? I think so. There's a lot of attention on SNL right now.

It could be. He might have thought, because he's a crafty guy, as Jews can be, that, ooh, I don't want to do a Lorne impression because I won't do it well. But he might have thought, wow, this could give us some publicity. Yeah. I don't want to do a Lauren impression because I won't do it well, but he might've thought, wow, this could give us some publicity. Yeah. You know, I don't know. Anyway, I offered to publicly defend Michael Che and I would defend him in a drop of a hat.

I love him and I'll defend him too. Yeah, that guy is, I love that guy. And, you know, if he were and I were alone, I would argue with him about what's going on in the West. We probably wouldn't agree. So what? If him and I were alone, I would argue with him about what's going on in the West. We probably wouldn't agree. So what? If him and I were alone, I would smooch him. Hi, Diana.

Hi, Norm. How are you? There we go. Diana, good to see you. Hey, can you hear me? Yeah, do you remember Sherrod? Yes. Of course.

I had a great time on this show. Yes, that's right. You were great on it. I want to have you back soon, definitely. Yes. Thank you. Can I do a formal introduction? Introduce Diana, yeah. I mean, you know her. I don't, but I can do the introduction because that's sort of my thing and I don't get

a lot to say, so I really cherish the introductions. Let me see if I can find it. I'm sorry because Perial Let me see if I can find it. I'm sorry, because Perial sent it to me under a separate email. Diana Taylor. Hey! Yes, she is a... This introduction doesn't say a whole lot, Perial. It says, Diana Taylor was widely accepted by such famed bars, clubs, and social scenes

as the famous Cafe Wa, where she became Queen of the Wa. Yes, Queen of the Wa. Her first wa yes was with priority records label and she set a precedent by being the first trans woman and underground house artist signed to the rap genre label numerous television appearances include the maury show vh1 rock of ages and this goes back a year or two jenny jones welcome diana taylor what about her book she has a book out It wasn't in the introduction, so blame Perry. What's the book? I'm not aging, so I should do. Oh, sweet. Look at that cover.

Oh, that's money. Let the record show that there's a beautiful picture of Diana looking like a million dollars. That is great. Diana used to shut it down. For those who don't know, at the Y, she shut it down. The best singer. Used to do the backflip on the stage.

Were you singing with Conor Tribble? Were you there in the Conor Tribble era? Yes. Reverend. Reverend. The Reverend Conor. The good Reverend. Yes. A showstopper. Yes. What songs did you sing? I mean, I used to go to the Y to listen,

so I'm trying to jog my memory. What songs did you say? I mean, I used to go to the Y to listen. So I'm trying to jog my memory. What songs were, did you sing regularly? I was, I had somehow became very well known for singing the dance and house version of I Believe I Can Fly and Proud Mary. Yes. I remember. I would do a backflip on Proud Mary. Yes. That's what it was. Why used to be fire? It's just fire. Oh, yeah. I saw you a couple of years ago in the olive tree. But this is an incredible time in the world for trans people, no? Yes.

What's your feelings about this? Did you ever think you'd live to see what you're seeing now in terms of the acceptance and the change in attitudes in the world? I actually did think I would live to see it and you have a lot to do with that

with me coming to that belief because when I first came to New York in 1997, my grandmother had passed away. She was the only real mother that I knew. And I had nobody. All I had was the church. And so I go to New York and I go to open mic at Cafe Wild one night and I killed it, I guess. And then all of a sudden you invited me to come back another night. And I came back. And then next thing you know,

I had my own event every Thursday night for a couple of years. That just kind of happened. You allowed it to happen, actually. I didn't know you were trans. He was trying to get it in. I think after a moment there, he kind of picked up on it. No, I know.

But the rules and the words was, you know, people were talking. But what I want to say is I want to set the record straight. Noam and I have never had any kind of interest. He's never shown me anything. I've never even suspected or thought. No, he's not a training chaser. But he is a very, very good hearted, very generous soul. You can love him at one point and the next point, you know, you chasing him down the street. Oh, so yeah, so there was there was a time.

I was building up to that. Go ahead. Okay rod stop okay i know you want to get me but you gotta talk about you gotta talk about the four guys that whoop their ass too oh that's right so what you're referring to so we can all be we'll all be quiet for a second diana let diana tell her story go ahead diana so norm gave me a shot when nobody else would give me a shot. I didn't want to do the whole drag scene thing. I didn't want to do that. I wanted to sing live. And he allowed me to do that.

But what I was about to say is back then I was batshit crazy, still trying to find myself. My house had burned down. And I told Norm that my house had burned down. And he was so generous. And he helped me get back on my feet. I'll say that. And even when people would say to Norm, why you got this whatever, whatever, you know,

working at your bar, on the stage all the time, why are you, you know, allowing this and so forth, he still would allow me to do it. But all of a sudden it gets down to sexual? He let you what? He let me slap, trip, slap. I love that somebody's trying to give Noam a compliment. It just can't go through. That's right. Even the whole system broke down.

It just like blew up Zoom. She's blocked on everything. the computer just couldn't take it wait a minute let me tell you what she was gonna say so noam was she was she when you met her was she the diana taylor you see now or was she under another name and another uh she was exactly like she's done and she's writing her book she she doesn't age and um she was uh um she's a tremendous performer you know but she but she's not right nobody ever gave me nobody ever gave me me a hard time about that it seemed like in the village it just seemed when she had said that it's like oh that's interesting in the village somebody would actually have an issue with it man he thought they were dating it didn't ask you about that. It just seemed like in the village, it just seemed, when she had said that, I was like, oh, that's interesting. In the village, somebody would actually have an issue with it.

Manny thought they were dating. It then went to a period of that. There was a thing, and I would wait for her to connect. I hope she's coming back. There was bigotry from the musicians. There was bigotry from the other musicians toward her. Yeah. And I don't even know- Maybe the black ones will go to church. It was bigotry from the other musicians toward her. Yeah.

And I don't even know. The black ones will go to church. It was that. Yeah. And on keyboard with a judge. And I can, I can remember she back. Diana's book.

And I, and I can remember having a big argument. I might've told this story before. I can remember a big argument where I, where we were rehearsing her songs when she wasn't there. And I would refer to her as she. And by the way, this was, you know, before you, anybody cared about that, right? I would refer to her as she. Oh, here she is.

Diana, you back? No. And musicians would correct me he he and i'd be come on what are you what are you doing you know like what why is it but and and um it was black musicians though i hate to say it but i'm sure no in fairness to them did the connor ever say that no no thank you but in fairness ever say it no no but in fairness to them it was and and but this is a lesson but Sherrod this is a lesson all around in fair and when you can't process how things could have happened in the past in fairness to them they don't they don't feel that way anymore I'm sure they've grown i'm sure they're they say

what was i thinking back then embarrassed by that behavior yeah it was insecurities in themselves i get it but they know but they were they were products of their time even a short time ago you know whatever it was it was the 90s in the 2000s and the aughts says they said um and i i think about that with with some regularity when that when people you know find it hard to understand how somebody 50 years ago could have said whatever it was that they said right and i and i will actually throw it in a musician's face i'll be oh really well do you remember when in in 2000 you were correcting me about he yeah you know how it sounds now? Yeah. I mean, what was, they were saying he,

were they saying it just like with viciousness and hatred? Oh, here she is. Diana. I'm here. Okay, so I was telling them about the bigotry that I saw towards trans people back, what did you work like in early 2000s, right? Yeah, 98. 98, and through that time.

So I was saying that i never no customer ever ever ever said anything negative to me about having a trans before me and to be honest i didn't know that there was been trans transvestite i you know drag shows were a staple in the village for a very long time and people would you know it was and there was lucky chang's was that chinese restaurant so it was kind of considered like kind of cool to see drag shows or i don't know that if that terminology is still okay but i told them but the other musicians could be quite harsh you remember that the other one there was one in particular that i did not like too well and uh he played the bass and i'm gonna leave that alone.

But he actually did evolve a little bit. He did evolve. And his son was always respectful. But I've never had a problem with the band. Jose was always the best. He would always say, DT. Jason was an angel. every single band member were all right with me there we go good so in rehearsal i would refer to you as she and from time to time somebody would say he i mean what are you doing you know whatever it is and i and i was telling charlotte but they all they all horrified to think of what that they did that then but they didn't in a certain way they were proud they were they were bigoted in a way but they didn't in a certain way they were proud they were they were bigoted in a way but they didn't know any better i i know that sounds funny yeah go

ahead the squeaky wheel wants degrees yeah wants that oil baby that part it was their struggle not mine but i always learned from like muhammad ali when he changed his name to muhammad ali and said i'm a girl. I can choose to be called what I want to be called. And I took the same as he and she, if somebody wants me to call you, she I'm calling you. She goes, that's your, that's you. You get to choose who you are to the world. And I accept it. I don't give a, that's how I live. It was life or death for me, either live and be me or die.

Yeah. So, so Diana. And, and, and so the thing with me is that, and I've gotten some flack for it, so there's one issue on and you know me, like if anybody who didn't give a shit about anybody being trans it was me, right? The issue comes up like should trans women

compete against trans men compete in sports? Should trans men compete in sports? Should trans women compete against? We just had that race recently. Trans women came in first and second in the race, relay race. And to be honest, I think that that's unfair in a certain way. So people are horrified that I'm some kind of bigot, you know?

Well, I do agree it it is pretty much unfair because we are you know physically whole other beings like we're whole another you know physically we're built different that's it okay so you're not this you i don't care what you do with your body you're never ever a the other gender right period so no matter what i can do to my body will never make me a bona fide born female or no i so i tell them a story go ahead go ahead i'm sorry so you're quick to answer that is um i don't think it's fair personally because i feel like you know um start your own damn sports you know i would watch it that'd be awesome but start your own shit but diane not only that i'm sorry you're looking like max hedgerum right now in a high school context um i i the other side of the issue, and I understand that there might be some biological advantages.

I think there are, I guess. The research, I think, shows it. But in a high school context, it may not be so easy for the one trans girl at the school to have her own team. She can't be on her own team. She's the only trans girl in the school. So what you're doing is you're putting that one trans girl in a very difficult position, and she's going to suffer. So you have to balance that again. No, she put herself in that position.

Listen to me. We have choices in life. We can't have everything we want, okay? I can't have everything I fucking want. I want reparations. You're breaking your neck to give them to me no so listen to me listen females go to the female restroom trans women want to go to the female restroom I don't have a problem with the restroom thing but I do believe that wanting to you can't have your cake and eat everybody else's too that's number one we're not there yet and if you are a female group and first of all women want um equal everybody want equal

rights okay feminists the feminine movement they want to be equal and you know do things like men i get that but this is a physical difference here i actually didn't want to get into that issue. I was going to use it to launch into the thing, but I will say in high school, I mean, I think in high school, my heart tells me we should try to let everybody compete. It's when it gets into professional sports and things like that,

that I think it really, or even college sports, whatever. I mean, I can go both ways. Would you want a man, would you want a guy, would you want a guy wrestling your daughter? Hold on.

Would you want a guy wrestling your daughter? Well, let me tell you, Diana, one time a trans woman tried to kick the shit out of me. And I learned the lesson. That happened twice. So Diana, one time we had a fight. So one time Diana had a fight. You chased her.

It was a fight because she hadn't gotten paid. But God forbid, I would never. I wasn't withholding her pay or anything. I know everybody's seen the Jewish club owner. But for some reason, she hadn't gotten her pay. And she wanted it right then and there. And I'm like, Dana, leave me alone. Ask the manager.

I can't. I'm busy. I'm trying to get a boss. He know he can help her. And she started chasing me, swinging. And, you know, and I'm. Around the corner. Around the corner.

And the thing is, she connected with me one time. And that was a man. a man hit me, hit me hard and I'm running. But the thing is, I can't hit back because it's a woman. So it's this weird dichotomy where I'm getting hit by a man, but I can't hit back because it's a woman. I remember it's like, yes, it is. And I know there's a total cognitive dissonance going on.

I gotta get the fuck out of here. And I run to the garage, the parking garage. And they're looking at me and I run into the office where they keep the money. And they're like, get the fuck out of there. And I run into the office and I grab the door and I close the door of the office. And I'm holding the door shut. And she's banging on the glass. Motherfucker!

You're gonna... And all the garage attendants are cracking up. banging on the glass. Yes. Motherfucker, you're going to, you're going to. And all the garage attendants are cracking up because they think it's some girl that I'm banging is like probably cheating or something. They don't know. And I'm going, help, help. I'm screaming, help. I found out later.

I was like, this black dude Is gonna He's gonna kick This shit out of me But I And truthfully I really wasn't Gonna hurt you We had Some kind of

Just We just knew That we had A Connection I just knew No one loved me Yeah I agree

And the garage Attendant was sure It was a woman And then they told one it's the next day juanita came they're like your husband had this fight with this girl and he hit her she hit him and she somebody was like he's fucking around this cocksucker got a girlfriend so she starts she starts talking to me who the fuck are you having a fight with? I'm like, no, sweetheart, that's Diana. Who's Diana?

Good. When she found out who I was, she fell out. She said you should have kicked his ass. Yes, but here's what happened. And did I fire you even after that? No. No. That's what I want to tell you.

You deserve it, you son of a bitch. Have her money ready. I should have tell you. You deserve it, you son of a bitch. Have our money ready. I should have been 86. He never 86'd me. And I have done a lot of stupid shit back then. Well, speak for yourself. Yeah.

He forgave me. And he kept me there, period. And he looked out for me when I needed him the most. So I learned so much from you, Noam. You are an educator. You have taught me a lot about music. I learned something else from you too. At that time, I didn't realize that I was coming relief.

My mother watched one of my shows, the taping of my show. She said, everyone loves a clown. They never bring you home from the circus. But I want to thank you for allowing me to have that platform to be that clown to grow and learn. And so I am doing very well as a musician right now, and I want to thank you. I am a writer with Rock Nation.

And I'm just very happy. Diana, it's a comic relief thing, actually. It's interesting you say that. I don't think it's the listeners. I can remember telling you, just sing the song. Because I used to think that you underrated your own ability just to be accepted just as a singer rather than as a trans novelty performer. Because you were very musical.

You would sing beautifully. Thank you. But you told me one time, Norm, you said, why do you yell and scream so much remember that i used to do that was the pain that was like trying to let all that like 12 years of slavery out get it out yep i had to get that out i had to get the oppression from my neighborhood oppression from the church oppression from every damn body everything and that was from being late with your money don't fuck with my money.

Well, see, here's the thing about the money situation real quick. Hi, Perrielle. Hi, Diana. You're so beautiful. Well, so are you. I fell in love with you over the phone. I know. I fell in love with you, too. You're amazing. All right, I'm gonna buy you a ring next week. I swear to God.

I'm gonna kill it in Texas. My husband will be thrilled to get rid of me. I'm going to leave that one alone, honey. So, Norm, what happened was my house had burnt down, and I was going through

a lot, and I don't think you knew at that time, and so that hamburger, that cheeseburger and fries just wasn't fucking getting remember i used to sing and perform and get cheeseburger and fries every night until you took notice and were like why is she eating fries and cheeseburgers every night she don't sing and it turned out because my house had burned down i was going through a lot i was having a nervous breakdown i didn't even know i was having a nervous breakdown. I didn't even know I was having a nervous breakdown. And the weight of life was just wearing me out. And I lost a lot of weight when I didn't have any

at all. And so it took a toll on my mind, but I just refused to go back home to Texas, a failure. So that's what happened. I was fighting the world and fighting myself and I was hungry and I was starving and I was worried about where I was going to lay my head. And when you found out about it, you gave me a nice amount of money and I was able to go and put it down on the apartment and I moved in and I never could ever not thank you for that. I will always thank you for what you did. Well, that's my pleasure, Diana. And it's nice of you to say that. And listen, I'm very sentimental about all the people that I worked with over the years. And I'm just very sentimental about it.

It was a wonderful time. And I worked with wonderful performers. And one of the reasons I really wanted to have you on the show was for people to see something that I don't think they understand is that is that people can I didn't know that you would agree with me on the transport thing I assumed you would disagree with me but it's beside the point which is that people can have very deep connections and very you know real and intimate and relationships with each other

coming from drastically different worlds and they don't have to agree on everything. Race wars. What's that? That's what we do on race wars. They don't have to fucking utter the party line you have to think

this way and you have to think that way. Otherwise, you must be a hater. Exactly. I know a ton of people who would kiss your ass and say everything that they're supposed to say and treat you like shit. Yeah. Yes.

Yeah. I do want to say that I think both of you are terribly off about trans kids in sports. All right. I want to hear Perrielle's perspective on that. Well, I can't speak to professional sports because I really don't know anything about it, but I can say that to assign a biological gender or to assign a gender to a biological sex and then say from there that those children who are already suffering need to, especially when they're identifying as, let's say, female or male and they're biologicallyologically not to then say that they can't play sports

on the team where they feel they and believe and I also believe that that's who they are I think is really ethically wrong. Wait, wait, let me finish. And I also think that, don't make that face. And I also think that, especially with these young kids, what you're saying about hormones is not even true yet. No, it is true.

No, it's not. No, it's not. And if you read about this stuff through the ACLU, there are numerous doctors and a lot of other people who are much more qualified than I am that support that. Ariel, first of all, it's not true. I've read a lot about this. I know about the hormone.

The male body is different than the female body. My daughter, who is extremely athletic and thin as a rail, can do like one push-up. My son, Manny, who is floppy and husky, can already do 10 push-ups. And, you know, it is – But that's not playing basketball or soccer. It's strength. The female decathlon has lower hurdles, lighter shot put, lighter javelin. Everything is different.

The question is this. I understand what you're saying, and I agree with you about the sentimental aspects of it, the compassionate aspects of it. But the question is this, why do we separate men and female in sports at all? I think the reason is because it's not fair. No, I think the reason is, is because we've been brainwashed

that there's a binary of gender and you're either male or female. You understand that if there was just one basketball league in high school, it would be basically all women wouldn't even play anymore? I mean, no, I don't know that. And I don't even know. You didn't know that?

No, I don't even know how that's relevant to what I'm saying. Relevant is because I bring out the fact that. You wouldn't get the opportunities to play. No, what I'm saying is relevant is that we separate sports. We try to make things fair. That's why we have weight classes and boxing. Why isn't it fair that a child should suffer psychologically? That's a different type of fair or not fair.

There's one aspect of making the competition. Why is that less important? Yes, I didn't say it was unimportant, but you can't just elide the whole issue. It's complicated. You can't just elide the whole issue okay it's complicated you can't you can't just elide the whole issue of having uh my high school has all uh biological females if that's the right terminology and then they go to have they go to the wrestling i don't know this female wrestling whatever it is they go to the and then the other high school has two trans women and they

kick our fucking asses and that's all there's an unfairness to that too we trained as hard as we could but we never really had a chance so i'm not so these are the issues but the problem is the problem is and i could come down on the side of saying you know the the protecting the emotional hurt is more important than i could i could i i don't know i mean i could i could listen to that i'm only just trying i'm only just trying to say people should be able to talk about it without be called hateful. That's my only point. I a hundred percent think that people should talk about it. I don't go ahead.

If allowed, if allowed, I really do appreciate your heart. You have a good heart, but I've lived my life and you have it. I know who I am and I know what it's like to go through the transition and transformation I'm glad that my identification reflects female and I'm glad that I have a man in my life that loves me but I also know that I am a very strong motherfucker and if if if if I was playing sports in a female team, I think that would be an advantage and a leverage that I have just because of my DNA.

I don't doubt that. That's not fair. Wait a minute, one more thing. So when an alien comes from outer space, not to compare myself with an alien, from outer space and they want to just be treated like everybody else and so forth, are we going to be that open? I hope so, but guess what?

They're still an alien. They have a whole nother DNA, endocrinology, et cetera. So wait a minute, I'm almost there. I'm going to make my point. So since we're so unique, why don't we have our own unique sports? That way it doesn't interfere and have these these kind of very delicate um conversations because now now guess what since you're so unique and you you

want to use the same toilet you got away with that how about now start your own sports team your own whatever and be and then that's a whole nother way to make money too. So I'm just saying like, we can't have everything we want. I'm sorry, but that's the truth. And I'm a trans woman. Yeah, and I'm sure that that's true. I'm sure that what you're saying is true. But I also know that I have friends who have trans kids and I have a child who is a young child who has had classmates from the age of four years old who identify as

the gender that they were not assigned at birth and those kids are not starting their own fucking teams like those well i mean they're still not they haven't even they haven't even reached puberty you don't really find yourself until puberty i don't mean find yourself but i when you're already that young and you're already encouraged to live your lifestyle or be yourself, whatever, there's a lot of psychological, you know, a whole lot missing if you don't have a therapist and you don't have all these things to go with that. Okay. It's not just you. Okay. I'll decide that's what I want to be.

Okay, sweetie. It's not that. It's kids who are, they're trans kids. And they're young. And some of them are in second grade. And I have a friend who has a trans daughter who's probably in fifth grade and started identifying as a girl. And then what you're saying is they should be allowed. And I would say on that level, like Norm was saying, that's different. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. They're young. They're, You know, they're just kids. I'm talking about, you know. High school, college pros. Yeah.

I don't know about that. And I have a problem. Diana, the thing is about starting their own team. I don't know if it's quite that simple. Say if there's just a couple of trans kids in the county, they can't really have their own team or their own league and if they want to play sports you know i i i mean i think to no one's point and then i made a point prior to that is i mean like anything else you gotta there's two sides there's two uh aspects

there's a biological advantage and then there's the kids feelings and both should be put into the equation and then we need to debate and discuss one thing i think we can all agree on is we need to be we need one thing we need to do is is if we decide that these kids can't compete with the with the girls trans girls can't compete with the cis girls if we make that decision we have to be very very careful not to promote not to do it I mean, as best we can to not promote hatred, you know. And we also got to keep in mind the feelings of the you know, the girls who are going to play against the other

girls, who are going to be getting dunked on and wrestled and choked out. They got feelings too. No, I'm sorry. I think that trans girls are girls and you have to... Let me ask you a question Perry L, because I'm not sure I understand your position I'm not sure if you if with respectfully I wonder if you've really taken full thought of your position is your

position which one is correct is your position that there is actual no advantage of trans women over biological females. So we're talking about something which isn't even actually real, meaning they're not gonna do any better or worse than any other woman. It's just random. Or is your position that even if they are substantially superior in sports,

and even if they do overwhelmingly dominate these sports teams, it still doesn't matter? Which one are you saying? I feel like this is a trap. No, it still doesn't matter. Which one are you saying? I feel like this is a trap. No, it's not a trap. I'm going to demand it. Hold on. No, I'm going to insist here that you be logically rigorous here.

Are you saying it doesn't matter if there's an advantage, or are you saying there is no advantage? What I'm saying is, is I think that it is extremely dangerous and extremely harmful to exclude. So you're not going to answer the question? No, I'm not going to answer it in the way that you set it up because that's not how I think about it. Well, I'm asking, no, because there are two, there are two, there are two options. You're not going to answer it then? No, no, I'm getting upset. There's gonna answer it. Well, I'm asking, no, because there are two options. Can you answer it then? No, no, I'm getting upset. There's two options in the real world here.

No, there isn't. One scenario is, actually there is no advantage, in which case, anybody who doesn't wanna let these girls play is a bigot. What, why? You're saying that, that's not what I'm saying. These are the only options which exist. The other option is, yes, we have to admit they do have a big advantage,

but we want them to play anyway. Which one do you believe reflects reality? I believe that there is another option that also reflects reality. What's the third option? I can't think of one. What I was trying to say. What's the third option? That I think that regard,

I don't know which one of those is true. And I don't know if it's- Does it matter to you which one is true? Not necessarily. I think what matters to me- So let's just, so fine. So let's just, so let's just- No, can I answer?

No, cause I'm leading this part of discussion. So let's just say- I'm just saying! Because I want, I'm trying to Socratically hone in on something here. Let's take for the sake of argument, since you think it doesn't matter. Let's say for the sake of argument that trans women are substantially superior to biological women in high school sports. You're talking specifically about high school sports.

That's not what I'm talking about. Then you tell me what you want to talk about which sports what i'm talking about i'm trying to all right i give up let's talk about something else let's talk about something else i love this i thought that was compelling to be because i feel like where i'm going no one can tell me more about me and my lifestyle than me. Because I'm the only one here that's living it. So all these experts, let me tell you something. The bottom line is this.

I am 52 years old, okay? I fought to have a place in a white school. I fought to have a place on stage. I fought to have a place in an apartment. I fought to have a place in an apartment. I fought to have a place in line at DMV. I fought to have my name and all that stuff changed. I'm going to tell you something. It don't come that fucking easy. I'm sorry. I wish you were there, Perrie O, to be my advocate, but I was my own advocate. And it took years and years of psychological evaluation, self-hate, self-love,

self-hate, self-love, being lost and so forth. And these kids are being raised right now with an open mind and parents are being open-minded. I think that's absolutely beautiful, but it's dangerous too if they don't have the education behind it and if they don't consult with people like me who've lived it by the way diana's book i read that in his book and she talks uh uh in her book about her childhood things i i never had any idea about and i would i would recommend people buy this book it's available on amazon right i think um yes i am not aging why should you i am not aging but it's a great but it's not simply a book about beauty secrets

and stuff. She also talks about her difficulties growing up trans and it's pretty compelling. Thank you so much, Norm. Anyway, I think we have to wrap it up. Diane, where are you living now? You're not in New York,

are you? I'm in Austin, Texas. Austin! Were you frozen this week? Trust me, I thought Diane, where are you living now? You're not in New York, are you? I'm in Austin, Texas. Austin. Were you frozen this week? Trust me. I thought I escaped the snow. It followed you down there. Hey, I'm going to tell you something. I think it's HAARP.

H-A-A-R-P. You know? They're doing something with this. That's what you think? You've been down in the snow too long. Diane, I'm not afraid. something with this. That's what you think? You've been down in the snow too long. Not really. Bill Gates making the snow. What did you say? You think Bill Gates is making the snow? No, no.

I'm trying to hear what Dan said. I'm saying I'm about your age and I also am not aging. No, you're not. No, indeed. You look good. Yes, I do. Thank you. I can't lie.

I don't believe in false humbleness. The truth is I look good. You do look good. Yes, indeed. Yes. Are you Italian? What are you? Jewish, just like your boss.

Your old boss. Oh, God. Okay. Okay. He has a type. There's a little melanin in there. I really had a great time Knowing him, I love you I love you too, when you come to New York

You gotta come sing with us, hopefully COVID doesn't I will, the last time I came You broke down and gave me a hundred bucks Oh, I wasn't even drinking This year was not quite as good a year as he had I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much, you guys. Thank you.

And Diana, we got into it. I really, the whole reason I brought up the sports was just as a launching pad into talking about how you tried to kick the shit out of me. But we got sidetracked actually talking about it. So I didn't want to ambush you with that kind of discussion. But I hope you don't mind. It's a very interesting topic, I think.

Yeah, it is. No easy easy answers i was trying to keep sometimes there aren't easy answers i think that's i think that's the lesson that we can take is that sometimes life just ain't easy ain't easy we can't always have what we want either that's true i i will say that if if um research were to show that statistically trans women pre-puberty or with puberty blockers were had no particular advantage over biological women then i think there's no issue there of course they should be they should all be competing i'm trying to make your point but if there's a substantial advantage then there then there's fairness concerns on both sides of that it becomes difficult just let us do our plugs and stop trying to start it back up.

All right, listen. All right, plug away. We already plugged Diana's book one more time. I'm not aging. Why should you? And it's a good question. Why should you? That's great.

And you know, I have another book. Thank you. I have another book coming out very soon this summer, and it's called The Supernatural Truth About Love. Yeah. Okay, Judy Bloom, stop writing all the books. Hey, I'm going to tell you something. This lockdown thing

got me in my head right now. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. Diana, I do have a question. Yes. Quite often, you can ask me anything you want quite often in the wah you would go you would be seen with a dude on your arm who would be who we would have seen the

week before with a you know a biological female on his arm and i don't think like he got back to he knew like he knew what what was going what is with these guys are they is it a fetish is it come on tell me about it okay I'll tell you um now every individual is an individual right so I can't say across the board that every guy whatever but and that it's a fetish but what I can can say is that I'm charismatic, number one. I'm not ugly. Yes. But it's how I carry myself.

And if I'm out there voguing and snapping my fingers and gas, honey, and doing all that, sounding nasal, and just, you know, and looking like a mess, then I'll be treated that way. But because of how I carry myself, my demeanor and my poise, I think that that means that makes a world of difference. So sometimes these guys did not know Noah. Oh, really? they did not know, but still were, they did not know. And we did not have a sexual or some type of romantic connection. We just were just meeting maybe first date and you would see that. But by the end of the night, they knew when they always came back.

That's all I'm saying. But maybe I have that ability to make a straight man think about it. Well, that's how you got it. So clearly you did. And I'm passable. I saw you conquer more than one. Of course. You know, you should have invited yourself over. Yeah, he wanted to. You know he did. have invited yourself over. Yeah, he wanted to.

You know he did. I thought about it. I thought about it. What? Oh, my God, honey. Oh, my God. I figured that I'd have to give you a raise

or something. Pay hush money. Juanita gonna get you? That apartment would have been a house. He don't need it, Juanita. I never would, you know, I've never felt that, never thought that, never seen that.

But I will tell you that you are an incredible human being because I had never experienced that level of acceptance and love in my life from complete strangers, from people that were not family. And you and Cher Pepsi Raleigh, Karen J., Anaya Day, Jiffy, everybody. Oh, my God. I could just go on and on and on and just name everybody there. Sasha, even Rosalyn.

You know, Rosalyn and I had a love-hate relationship. I can see that. She was just being Rosalyn. You know, Rosalyn and I had a love-hate relationship. I can see that. She was just being Rosalyn and being real. She's a church girl, country girl. She went about that punk shit. But Rosalyn loved me, too, though, on the down low. I love me some Rosalyn. Ariel knows Rosalyn.

Yeah, Rosalyn ain't nobody to fuck with. I learned that lesson. But she's a beautiful soul. Oh, yeah, she's great. Who else? And then there was, what's her name? She could sing to Kim. Remember Kim?

Oh, yeah, Kim Somersault? Somersault. Yes. Yeah. So I just wanted to thank you again, Noam, for allowing me to grow as an artist and for not being discriminatory and for being there. You shouldn't have to thank somebody for that. I mean, I appreciate the thing, but you shouldn't have to thank somebody for doing what they ought to do. Again, you really, really are very special, very special.

And I can't wait to come back and perform. You are too, Diana. And I really mean this from the bottom of my heart. I'm very happy to have worked with you and gotten to know you and to still know you and happy every time I see you come in. Thank you. You're a substantial talent. You play keyboard too, by the way, but you could never get her to do it really to perform, but quite talented.

So, and as you can see, very, you know, warm person. Well, I'm working on my standup comedy, Noam. Oh, now stay in your own lane, goddammit. You gotta have a spot for me at that Comedy Cellar, goddammit. I'm coming, I'm bringing it, goddammit. Stay in your own lane, don't try to take out me. Fuck you, you gonna be in drag next. I'm bringing it, guys. Stay in your own lane. Don't try to take out. Fuck you. You're going to be in drag next.

I'm going to fuck you all up. Yes, honey. You're going to do some two-on-foo. I'm going to RuPaul it up, baby. You got to work, bitch. All right, everybody. We're over time. Gerard wants to pluck Race Wars.

Yes, Race Wars. Don't forget Race Wars, yes. And the comedy show that I just did tonight for the Comedy Cellar. Check that out. And then I'm in Mohegan Sun this March, so check that out, Mohegan Sun Comics Comedy Club. You can find me on my new hobby, Clubhouse. Clubhouse.

You're on Clubhouse. Follow me there. Yes, Clubhouse. And get off Michael Che's fucking back, all right? Enough of this. If you don't like it, you know, talk about the issue. You don't need to attack him. It's just a joke. Yeah, he's just doing a joke.

Love Michael Che. Okay, podcast at comedycellar.com for comments, suggestions, questions, constructive criticism. Beauty secrets. Okay, good night, everybody. Bye. I'm headed to the club now.

Nine o'clock show. Okay, have fun.