The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Patrice O'Neill - an Homage

Episode Date: March 26, 2021

Von Decarlo is a stand up comedian & Executive Producer of The Patrice O’Neal Documentary Killing Is Easy.  Marina Franklin is a comedian, actor, writer, and host. 

this is live from the table the official podcast podcast of New York's world-famous comedy cellar. Coming at you on SiriusXM 99 Raw Dog and on the Laugh Button Podcast Network. I'm Dan Maderman. We are here with Noam Dorman, owner of the comedy cellar, Perrielle Ashenbrand brand the producer of live from the table we have von de carlo with us making her uh i think making her uh live from the table debut as far as i can correct she is yes i've never been on a phone i've never been on a podcast yeah welcome a better lady than ever good to have you von de carlo is a stand-up comedian and executive producer of the patrice o'neill documentary, Killing is Easy. We also have Marina Franklin with us, comedian, actor, writer, host.

Her credits include HBO's Crashing. Hey, so do mine. Trainwreck, Stephen Colbert's Late Show, and many others. And she will be appearing in FX's Hysterical, premiering on April 2nd. And the next day on Hulu. Welcome, Marina. It's been a while for you. You're not making your debut, but it has been some time because generally speaking, you

always, you never seem to want to do our podcast. We're not insulted. That's not true. I've done Hot Temps podcast several times, but I think I get them confused, believe it or not. I thought it was the same thing but it's not attempt podcast is usually a little more political although this is often quite political because noam steers us in that direction but we're here to i assume this week to talk a little bit more about comedic matters because we have the executive producer of the Patrice

O'Neill documentary with us. And Marina, you were involved as well with the documentary, is that correct? I was in it, yes. I was in it a lot. And then I think some people were upset because I was in it more than they were, or they didn't. But it wasn't about that, which was great. That was the fun part about doing the Patrice O'Neill documentary was that from what Vaughn did with it and what the director did and how it was steered was it was really about Patrice's story. It was about telling his story, not really about us. So even for me who can be somewhat self-absorbed I think in that moment it wasn't about that it was really about Patrice um no Marina actually I I set out to do the documentary just for you this was absolutely not about Patrice at all I just needed a moment to highlight Marina Franklin um no what

she's saying is true I it you know it's a weird place to start with that, with people and their feelings about who was in it, who wasn't in it. There was moments of Patrice's life that wasn't in the film. Like, we made a film. We didn't make a 41-year part documentary for each year of his life. And even if we did something that outrageous, you still can't fit a person's entire life into one film. And when I first met the director, Michael Bonfiglio, that was one of the first things that I expressed to him. As far as my desire for the film, I wanted everybody to get out of their feelings and out of the self-absorption it can be when you watch documentaries. Sometimes when I watch them, it feels like

the people are talking about the subject and the subject's just chiming in. So when I first met Michael Bonfiglio, I asked him, I said, there's enough footage between radio, standup, video, everything where you could make it feel like Patrice is just narrating his own story and then everybody else is just chiming in. And I think that he did an excellent job of doing that. Why is Noam's neck showing? I don't know. And his shirt is like skin tone. So he looks a little naked.

Are you me too and us, Noam? What's going on here? I cannot log in. I cannot log in to the meeting with the link that Periel gave me. I just rebooted my computer. I was able to do it from my phone, but I don't know. I'm just trying. I don't know.

It's some sort of weird thing going on here. So sorry. You guys, go ahead. As you were. Go ahead. We can hear your voice. That's sufficient. I'm trying to fix this as I'm listening. So I'm sorry.

Go ahead. Oh, sorry. I just thought it was hilarious like you just your neck and looked like you were pivoting and swirling and but anyway that was great angle better because I can see the colors are corrected and now I can see that's just a very lovely natural brown sweater you have on. A few minutes ago, it just looked like you were all bare chest. I was very uncomfortable.

Did you pitch this idea or somebody came to you with it? What was the genesis? I started the project in 2015. That was the beginning of the project. I saw a video of you that I loved so much. I think it was on your Instagram, where you said that you walked into the Comedy Central meeting like before and you were like, there needs to be a billboard in Times Square. Yeah, they should have kicked me out. They understood the context of Patrisse. When I first took the project to Comedy Central,

Joanne was still there, Joanne G. She's at Netflix now. And I met Christian McLaughlin through her. And they were the executives there at the time. And of course over time things changed hands but Joanne worked on Elephant in a Room and I knew her for there and she they totally got the context and understood why I would say that because there were times in Patrice's career where he wanted a billboard and it wasn't even on ego stuff it was on this is what's

deserving of this project that you want me to do it should be properly advertised here's x y and z and he was denied getting something as simple as a billboard that is a huge deal right but there were other um projects happening that was pretty equivalent to the things that he was asking for, but they just denied him that. So, and he, he just, he, he turned down, you know, the second season of a project that he was working on and decided to not move forward because they, he wasn't going to get everything that he wanted. So he stood his ground on that, but he really did talk about it for a long time in terms of feeling like the business didn't see his worth in the game. And it really hurt him in a sense, like I do all of this and I can't get a billboard. I can't get proper

advertising. I see X, Y, and Z show on the side of buses and cabs and subways. And I can't get proper advertising. I see X, Y, and Z show on the side of buses and cabs and subways. And I can't get any of that yet. I've made the show successful enough for new seasons. So it just it was really important for me for him to to get that. And I said that in the video, I don't do the, I wish Patrice was here thing. Cause that would be all day, every day for me, for a hundred different things in life. Starting with my daughter, you know, and, and, and her graduate high school and all the things that he, he hasn't been here for.

But I do wish he was here to see his billboard. That would have been, like, that was definitely well deserving. And I'm glad Comedy Central didn't kick me out, kick me out the office. Yeah, I mean, there was something really beautiful about walking in there and being able to say that for all of those reasons. And it was really exciting to see it too. Well, I can't, you look, I'm not, I'm not one to claim to be, like there's people that you have a pitch plan. I didn't have a pitch plan, you know, even like I had a show on Sirius XM,

NBA channel. I was doing the Godfrey complex at the time on Urban View and Power Hour. And they know I'm a huge basketball fan. And Karen Hunter, God bless Karen Hunter. She walked me right over to NBA. She was like, I think she would work well on your channel. Because they were looking for a place for me on their channel because they just liked me doing their talk radio power hour was one hour then godfrey show moved to two hours so

it's two hours of talk radio um but they didn't have space for me to have my own show so they introduced me to the higher up set serious xm and but i still had to pitch the show so I my opening pitch was okay let me tell you why the NBA channel is boring I think I listen to your channel it's boring people don't want to the athletes don't want to come to your station because y'all talk about basketball I get it it's the basketball station but like Damian Lillard for instance is an incredible rapper he'll walk right past the NBA channel and go to sway in the morning because he knows he gets to talk about his off-court stuff so you know that was my my pitch was telling them that their station was boring I don't I don't have a plan I just I I feel passionate about something and then I just talk about it.

And that's what I did with Comedy Central. And of course, it helps to already have a relationship with people. And they were definitely had a huge desire to make sure the documentary was done and done well. And right down to the very end, they did absolutely everything to make sure that happened. Noam, by the way, Noam, are you with us? I had to uninstall my Zoom client.

Something peri-el, something like a virus or something. All right, this is bullshit. I didn't send you anything wrong. Everybody else got on here with no problem. She's being really nice to me. So I'm going to say

she did everything perfect. So I just going to say she did everything perfect. So I just want to say that as I was trying to get it fixed, I heard Von tell a story about the billboard. And I was quite moved by that. I'm happy. I mean, I'm sorry that he didn't get to see the billboard as well. But you did a great thing there. Thank you.

I don't know how to put it into words. But, you know, it's very sentimental. And you know it's it's uh it's it's very sentimental and i think it's great did you watch it overall yeah i watched it yeah did you cry i cried no i i can't i i didn't cry um only i'm only saying that to be honest that i didn't cry but that doesn't mean i didn't find the documentary very affecting. I just didn't cry, no. I, like, didn't stop crying. Yeah. Well, you were much closer.

Patrice and I, I mean, there's some reputation out there that somehow Patrice and I had bad feelings towards each other, which I mean, maybe Vaughn knows something I didn't, but I never had any bad words with Patrice. My father had some fights with him, but this is all so insignificant in retrospect. But no, I, so, but you, but I wasn't close with him the way somebody like Marina was, or many other comics who would be much more, you know, taken by their personal feelings when they saw that documentary. I didn't know him well. Right. There, how can I say it um relationships have ups and downs right i was with patrice 10 years

and if if the decision was made like for certain people to be in the film based on their relationships with patrice then a lot of people wouldn't have been in it at all even the people that you saw in it you have have to take a look at the overall picture, right? There were people that were extremely close to him in the early days that maybe they weren't even friends at all towards the end of his life. But that's so irrelevant to the overall narrative of the story. And the fact that they were friends at a point in time and they can discuss certain things was the more important factor there were no um nothing was personal in terms of who's in it who's not the director had a very difficult job in in taking someone's actual life and it's still a film which was very difficult for me as well because there's so many different hats I have to wear.

And in looking at it like this is this is not just a project, but it's a project. So in having to remove feelings and personal feelings and all of these different things to go, OK, how can this have a narrative flow and what fits into that and what doesn't. And when you look at the final, when I look at the final product and I go, did it serve the purpose that I set out to do, which was to humanize Patrice, because comedy tells its own story. And my daughter said it best when she, when she says she wanted to speak at his funeral and she said, I have to tell him what a great daddy is because everyone's going to talk about comedy and and all of that but they don't know what a good daddy is i need to say that and that's that's pretty much the core of it like people don't know especially as comics we all know that who you are on stage is informed

by who you are as a person, right? Especially if you're the type of comic that comes from a very personal place with your material. So that was very important to me to humanize Patrice and to show growth because people are just stuck in this time warp. Oh, Patrice will do this or say that. Really? Well, that's kind of funny because when I first met him, he had a totally different viewpoint on something that he changed over time because he's a person and he's a well thought out. conclusions about anything. So it was important for me to humanize him and to show growth. And I felt like that the director definitely accomplished that with what we had. And unfortunately, some things were left out. Some people were left out, but none of it was personal. Yeah. Well, I was not involved in the documentary, and rightly so, because Patrice and I were

not close close but I appreciated him from a distance and well I want to say this comes through in the documentary although I began to pick up on this a few years ago and then um i i've seen it only um snowball patrice um the public will be uh probably most of the public will be surprised to find out is considered by his peers to be one of the greatest comics who ever lived. In fact, quite a few very good comics think he may be the greatest comic who ever lived. And that, you know, I had no idea at the time. Actually, I never saw Patrice even perform that much,

to be honest. I had no idea at the time. Because he stopped working at the cellar. Yeah. But not only that, but when he did work at the cellar, he wasn't bringing his best Patrice most of the time, you know, for whatever reason. I mean, this was one of the aspects of his character,

which is even alluded to in the documentary, is that he would do whatever the fuck he wanted, right? So, and as as a business owner you get heartburn from that sort of unpredictable but was it was it not his was he not bringing his best patrice or was he not bringing his most crowd-pleasing patrice well however you want it i don't want to however you want to put it meaning that he wasn't he he knew how to kill and that wasn't his goal. That's right.

But that was not his goal. But I would say that that was not what he utilized his comedy seller sets for. He used them for whatever his own purposes were, either to try a material or just to bullshit around or whatever you know whatever it was so um but anyway so i didn't get to see him at his best the way so many of his peers who well can i just say something real quick before i forget this thought um no what you're saying is actually why comics liked him um and why we think he's the best it wasn't his killing sets that we like the most. It was actually the sets because we all and I'm one of those comics that likes to bomb actually. And the cellar was actually one of the spots that was very challenging for me. Because I felt like I couldn't somebody had to say no but i mean patrice actually

fuck he's actually walked right into it he'd be right patrice actually in taught me a lot about like there were certain times when i i used to do that quite often was just, I never thought about killing. That's how I was coming up. And that's how I worked. I bombed a lot. And I like, I still to this day enjoy bombing. And when I can't bomb, I actually feel like I don't get the most out of a set. And so that's what comics really appreciated about Patrice is he didn't feel like he had to, he didn't like at the cellar, we were all like, you got to kill at the cellar. Patrice never did that. And so. Can I tell you what, what, what, what I, what I take as what,

my impression was what the comedians admired about him most. I'm not saying this is factual. This is just what came to me. That he was one of a handful of comics that actually had real depth of perception and understanding of the human condition. And quite often in conversations, people would refer to, you know, Patrice used to say this, not jokes so much,

or even if it was, even if they would repeat the joke, it was, it was points that he would make. Like, in that small group of people like Louis or Chappelle, who are, who are deep, deep thinkers and philosophers in a way. And, and I And I think that to me is what I take. And I didn't realize that at the time, that he was one of those very few comedians who had the right to be respected as a commentator on life, you know, in a not shallow way. So that's what I have learned about Patrice

that I actually didn't know while he was alive. Because man, it's hard for us to love you and like you at the same time. It's just, it is what it is. Once a man loves you, he no longer likes you, usually. So I'm going to give you some advice, ladies, on how to keep your man liking you once he loves you, if that's possible.

This is what I think. Men want to be alone. But we don't want to be by ourself. Does that make sense at all? Really. Can I jump in there? So, just to comment on both things that you and Marina are saying. One, he also had the power of explanation, right? He could take a very complex or simple thing and make you feel like, wow, I was feeling that. I just didn't know how to articulate it right he had the power of explaining very complex things race politics you name it he because he was well thought out and and to your point of he didn't always bring his

best and marina's point of of process as i'll speak for as a comic from as a comic myself we all have a different process of how we get to the end result of what is going to kill, right? So I don't know what sets that you saw. So I can't speak on or for Patrice on that. But I will say that he had a particular process that involved him being very honest on stage. And one of the reasons why he enjoyed working overseas and at a point wasn't even going to come back to the United States,

but that Showtime special brought him back, was because he was able to paint his picture. The audience kind of allowed him to walk through. And if you see some early footage of him, you could see him slowly walking through the process of painting a particular picture that ended up in specials very tight and very well I don't know what again I don't know what set shoes are what he was doing at the cellar but it was definitely I could assume was part of the overall process of getting to that place you know what I mean so I don't know if that means that he wasn't bringing his best,

but I do understand as a business owner, it's like, can you just fucking kill every time you're up there with your damn process? I get it. I see both sides. Well, look, the thing is, you know, I think it's more interesting for a listener to hear a conversation about a person who's passed away that is no holds barred. Like, you know, God forbid anybody thinks, I mean, my father is dead, right?

I could have a very blunt conversation about my father and I could tell you about the things about him that were his flaws and the things that bothered me about him, whatever it is. And these would be interesting to somebody who's trying to get a feel for the human being. So what I'm saying is that God forbid you think that i'm like trying to say anything bad i'm just like i'm just gonna speak honestly what i what i my perception is of the man having seen him i'm not criticizing him and you can no you can i'm not sensitive and saying oh you everybody has to all praise patrice look when when patrice died and elisa lampanelli was like, I didn't like him when he was alive.

I'm not going to pretend like I like him now that he's dead. People wanted me to be upset about that. I'm like, I wouldn't. Actually, Patrice would probably say, good girl. I had to die for you to fucking be honest about something at some point. Well, you heard what Naderman said, right? You heard what Naderman said, why he didn't go to the funeral? No.

Well, I did not go to Patrice's funeral out of respect for Patrice because my feeling was that I wanted to go because what's better than a funeral where there's going to be famous people saying interesting things? Your daughter,

she spoke. I didn't know about that, but that sounded interesting. But I'm not going to go to a uh she spoke it's i didn't know about that but that sounded interesting but i'm not going to go to a funeral just because it's interesting that's not an appropriate reason to go to a funeral uh i agree you weren't friends with him why why would you be there because i i was friendly but not friends and i and my in my head i said to myself if patrice somehow was able to rise up out of that coffin and see me there, he'd be like, Natalie. I just imagine him with his big, booming voice saying, the fuck is Natalie doing here? Look, at the end of the day, I don't feel like people have to tiptoe around me about

Patrice. Of course, I do feel like, hey, have a certain amount of respect. But I understand context. Context. And I understand when people are saying something to be shitty, and when they're not saying something to be shitty, and it's just being honest. So I'm not the person to tiptoe around with certain things. So you know, no, I hear what you're saying. I wasn't speaking on it to even defend him in particular I wasn't there I don't know what spots you saw he could have just been fucking around or it could have been I wanted to speak as far as what Marina was saying too and for myself as a comment sometimes you're

the process to get to where you are going to kill with one particular thing, it's going to take a long time sometimes. Sometimes it's right away. Sometimes it's not. And God forbid the business owner or the booker is in the room at the time you're working some shit out. And it's like, please don't book Vaughn again because this shit's trash.

And it's like, no, I'll bring my best. I absolutely loved watching Patrice walk. Not one person, not two people. And it's been like, I think it was two times I saw him walk the entire audience. And can I tell you something? I could it. If I could just, if I could just, I know,

but if I could just finish this point, because what it was, was for comics, right? For comics, certain comics, I should say, not all comics.

Some comics like to pander. I don't. I try not to. I hate comics that pander. It makes me sick. So Patrice always was like if at any point in his set he felt like sometimes the audience was like expecting a laugh per minute, he would just toss the entire set. And so I enjoyed it on a personal level. Because I was like, yeah,

like the moment I have someone tell me, like, I'll be on stage and I see a woman going, come on, come on with the jokes. You know, like, you know, I have a certain rhythm. I'm not here to tap dance for you. So when I would see Patrice do that and walk the entire audience, yes, it's a very selfish thing, but I enjoyed it. Do material? Shut the fuck up, you two.

What is this table? Fucking blow off, cocksucker. I've been doing this forever, motherfucker. but I enjoyed it. had material so she thought that she should open her fucking trap? You can certainly understand why I know. I'm not talking about a business level. I can see both sides of that. I can see the selfishness of that where it's like, okay. And I can also see the admiration and the boldness

behind that. Like, I don't care. I don't have to. I get all of that. Here's the thing um and and i was hoping to again with the documentary i wanted to show growth because there's a lot of people walking around there's a lot of little baby patrices running around thinking that just because he did something this is bible they they study him like he's almighty jesus and oh this is what i should be doing uh Uh, and then they seek to abuse audiences and they do it wrong. They don't know what they're doing and they don't

really have real purpose. They just think they're being, oh, Patrice would do this. But what they didn't know is over time, elephant in a room is a great example. Uh, he lit the ass fire out of this girl, an elephant in a room. I don't know if you guys remember that. They showed some of it. For months, he was like, I can't do that anymore. That was unnecessary. He literally thought that he destroyed her so much

that she could have committed suicide. He would not let up. He couldn't get it off his mind. He was like, I don't have to i don't i don't have to do that i don't have to do that why did i even do that that was growth he came from a place where it's like i'm destroying everybody and then he understood the power that he had and how unnecessary it could be in certain moments he you don't have to use all your superman powers on these civilians right so i i i believe for myself as a comic i'm pulling that right i'm pulling those tools right out of my pocket if it's necessary

but i'm not going to seek to do it i'm not i'm not jumping through the crowd looking for the person who i'm going to destroy that day i'm focused on my material and what i came to do now somebody if somebody want to poke the bear, that's a different story. But there's a lot of people mimicking Patrice and got it all wrong. So let me say, Patrice was very, very sweet with me towards the end. And I saw him destroy it. It was one of those virus shows, the Opie and Anthony shows. It was outdoors, I remember. And he just killed, I remember. And I spoke with him about it, you know, about why does it come to the cellar.

And he was very, very nice to me. I think we even texted at one time. So, like, I'm nothing but... That was me, no. Was that you? Was it you? No. I'm sure, even if it was you, it was authorized, right? But,

so, there's absolutely zero, you know, bad feelings or zero bad experiences I had with Patrice. As for, you know, the idea of enjoying walking, seeing somebody, a comic, walk the room. You know, I can't say that I agree with that because I think not just from the business, you know, I, I can't, I can't, uh, uh, say that I agree with that because I think not just from the business owner's point of view, if I buy a ticket to a show and the, and James Taylor or, or, um, whoever the act is, I don't know why James Taylor came to mind, but, uh, I think like a single guy on be hilarious he decides decides to turn his back to the audience and say fuck this I'm like no you know um that's that you are you know you're taking the money of the people and and and not just money but they look forward to it they get a date they go out they get dressed they're going to be

entertained and there is a there is a bond bond between the good faith of the entertainer to entertain. And if a particular person in the audience has it coming to him, by all means, he has it coming to him and walk that guy. But even that, the best comics will secure an audience member who has it coming in a way that is actually positive for the show where they get the audience the rest of the audience is on their side and cheering when the when the poor guy actually bursts into tears and runs out of the room where some other comics will allow their personal anger to just you know bring the whole room down and that's human by the way i i spent a

lot of time on stage i can't tell you how many times I let things get better of me. You walked the room. No, not walked the room. But I would do something which would, I'd have to dig a hole in the room out of the negative energy that I allowed to have too much influence in the room because I couldn't control my own emotion, you know? So I understand how it happens, which is different than to say that i think it's okay but um every performer does it every performer does if i if i could just clarify what i mean by patrice walking the room because i think we're talking about two different things i'm talking about because i come from a theater experience and art i'm talking about art and

sometimes art isn't pretty. And what I liked about Patrice was he was, he was a real artist. I'm not talking about the business. I'm not talking about what's appropriate. I'm not talking about what's, you know, you know, self-destructive. I'm talking about what I really loved about Patrice was his art form. And part of his art form was being completely destructive as a human being and that's what i actually enjoy i don't i don't like the pleasingness it's just who i am personally he did have a desire for no i'm just i'm just saying that for me for for me when i watched him do that it was there's a there's an actual theater about that experience of doing everything opposite of what the audience wants.

There's a style I can't remember the name of it. There is a if I had it, I would do it right now where the guy would actually throw shit at the at the at the wall. I used to study this in when I was a master's in theater. And so a lot of times, not that that's what Patrice his goal in goal was or what his desire was. But that's what I actually enjoyed goal in goal was or what his desire was but that's what I actually enjoyed about it was like this is a true artist who is doing something at times that seems like he's he's discovering things he's learning things he's authentic in it and I love to see that that's just well a lot of times when he was doing that for instance when he was doing a web junk and there were people showing up to

his shows that were like oh the web jump guy right and he's like no i'm this my comedy is not the web guy comedy he was very uncomfortable uh with people that came in with a certain expectation that wasn't his comedy so that he did have a very artistic way of weeding out the the core fans that knew his comedy was there for his shit and then the other people that was sitting there judging like what is this that were not on board yes he absolutely had an artistic way of of weeding through those people and and walking them right out and and for a business owner paying their tabs if if such was the case would dish out money that that was missing in that so I I totally I I totally get the artistic side that things, the business side of things, life in general. That's what we're all here to do while we're living and breathing is growing and understanding. Are you saying that if Patrice had lived or was still alive, how many years ago has it been since he died?

Ten. Ten years in November. Jesus Christ, it goes so fast. You think that the Patrice we would have seen in the last ten years would be different in some ways from the Patrice we would have seen in the last 10 years would be, would be different in some ways from the Patrice we saw. Absolutely. Everybody sitting here is different than they were 10 years ago. Thank God we've had the opportunity to live and grow and be different. But related to these particular issues. Absolutely.

There's nothing that you could bring up that I that I would say he would not have had growth he was a man of growth from day one you're talking to the woman when we when we was first getting together he was like oh I could never be in a relationship with a woman with a kid and cut to my stepdad Mr. B so it's it's tons of growth and along the way it's it's a lot of uh heavy sometimes harsh and and misunderstood language and and stuff that i have to defend in a lot of ways and and even like with the the walking people stuff and him being uncomfortable with with new people like i remember when when he got all these new followers on twitter he was like i don't want any of these people i just want the, the,

the first 5,000 people who just knew who I was for whatever reason, you know, and then he grew to an understanding of, of getting to a place where even understanding what, what that meant and how effective that could be in different ways. Can I ask Marina something I think would be, would be interesting to the average listener? You said earlier that you like to bomb. I mean, if you could clarify what it is about bombing that you like and that you find, I don't know, beneficial or interesting.

Orgasmic? We'll go with orgasmic. Well, if that's the case, then yes. Then what is it that's orgasmic about? Do you like that matter? No then yes then what is it that's orgasmic about you like that matter no i've done expected it's an unexpected way to describe bombing because i live in fear of bombing i don't like it in any in any but i'm very insecure but what is it about bombing that you that you like no i i mean in the moment it doesn't feel great right but it's like there's something about it that's very new. It's the, I feel alive. I feel like I'm not repeating. Like one of the things that I hate is when I'm doing the same

material over and over again. And I'm like a robot. That's not why I got into any type of performance whatsoever. If I don't feel alive on stage and something about bombing makes you present. It makes you feel like you need to fix things. And you growth, like Vaughn was saying, there's growth that comes from it. My best jokes to this day came from years of bombing. My best jokes to this day that go across overseas, where people booked me in Ireland and England and South Africa, those jokes, those particular jokes was years of bombing with that material. And there were people who used to tell me, you know, you're, you know, they would make fun of me. They would say, you better stop. I'm gonna bringina back on stage with those jokes and those are the ones that i bombed with and that's that was my strongest

material so i know oh go ahead dan well so you're saying it's not it's not the bombing is obviously not an end in itself it's you want to get to the killing but to get to the killing you need the bombing yeah to get to the killing to get to a killing, you need the bombing. Yeah. To get to the killing, to get to a great joke, you got to be truthful with it. And sometimes my process is not like everyone else's process. My process is slow. It's very organic and it can be painful to watch. I've been told. So I don't mind that. And that is my process. And that's why a lot of people will say, I'm sorry to bring it back to me. I'm being very selfish right now.

But that's why some people will say. I brought it back to you when I asked you. Oh, well, thank you. I guess that's why some people will say, Marini, you're a very unique comic. And to bring it back to Patrice, in my early, early days, he actually said to me when I was up on stage at the Boston Comedy

Club he goes look at you trying to be all honest up there not until I watched the documentary did I realize that was a big compliment from him I thought he was making fun of me but I didn't realize he was actually saying you're doing something something great. And then he said to me, he would make fun of me and say, not until you go, are you ever going to make it? And that's how I got that shake a dang dang joke was Patrice. That was Patrice calling out the fact that I was trying to not do that and he was like explore that on stage which was one of my favorite jokes and one of the jokes that I I you know I had black women looking at me like what's she talking about we go you know I mean I but it was the best joke because Patrice was constantly kind of he would look and go are you being authentic with you are you exploring every part with it or are you pandering with it and so bombing taught me how to be truthful with those moments instead of just

getting the laugh right away I agree with Marina in in terms of bombing with with my material that I'm pretty my instincts are pretty good so I feel like the first time I do it it's usually pretty close to where I want it and then when I start messing around with it I learned that either how I did it the first time was good or like Marina said you find all these magical moments and and all these different layers and all these things that make it so much better and now this joke that if you wouldn't have bombed your way to the kill would just be maybe just an average joke or not a good joke at all or just you know whatever and and one of the things I don't have a fear of bombing at all and one of the things I learned from Patrice was well one he used to always say you know don't give away your power on stage don't

be afraid of the silence don't don't try to talk too fast and get get to the next thing too fast but but the as far as bombing and I still do this to this day if I could be having a great set I'll practice bombing like I'll practice losing the room just to see if I can get it back and And that way, what that does for me is if I'm like, oh, this is going well and in the middle somewhere, I lose the room purposely and work my way back into getting them back.

What happens for me is when you bomb for real, not on purpose bomb, but you just bombing, that you don't feel that nervousness or that fear of that silence because you already know you've gotten them back how many times. Right. So that that's what I do with it. I do that during sex. That seems to be the real part of it. I mean,

what one thing as an observer, I mean, that's I mean, the title is so brilliant, you know, and just to, again, as an observer to watch Patrice and not to have known him at all, is that killing is easy. It's all of this other stuff that is really, I mean, for somebody who's a genius like that, killing is easy. It's all of this other work that's the art of it that is so complicated and deep that, I mean, there's really something so brave and courageous, I think, for the few comics who open themselves up to doing that in front of a crowd you know well i mean it's it's like you know with hannah gadsby's last special where people said well that's not comedy you know it wasn't or it was only partially comedy because she was a woman one woman one woman show or well well well but the point being is that is that that's another

art form that she was doing absolutely she was not being funny 100% of the time but that's valid Dave Chappelle's most recent specials Bishop Dave Bishop Dave I love Bishop Dave the difference Dan though I would say is that

Patrice was never did a set like that on Netflix where it was like not killing you know she did an unpolished or she was basically not being funny on purpose and she's a woman so people looked at it a little closer and then it's funny that Dave Chappelle did the same thing and it was celebrated but when nanette did it or hannah did it it was like a very but do you think if if she was a dave chapelle caliber though i think dave chapelle is on a whole nother planet no i don't i don't i don't think that's the point i'm making i think the point is is that that Hannah Gadsby, which a lot of Americans didn't know, I knew her personally, had gained and earned the right to do what she was doing.

She was very successful in Australia. She had her own TV show. She has she's a veteran. She was a veteran. So she wasn't like a new comic. Just, you know, I didn't say that. Yeah, no, she made the choice to do that but i do think that you know when we compare her to dave chappelle as being what who's better i think she did a lot of what patrice would have been celebrated for but because she was doing

it on stage and making money from it and and she's a woman, for some reason, a lot of people had a lot of issues with it, where I think the process of it and the airing of the process of it is what people had the problems with. I was kind of a Hannah Gadsby defender for some reason, because I was impressed by the charisma with which she gripped the audience. And as opposed to most things, which I don't sit through all the way,

I did sit all the way through her hour, which speaks for itself in terms of her talent. So I just respected the fact that she could hold me for an hour when very few people can. I do wonder whether Patrice would have been a fan of Hannah Gadsby, but you know, we don't know. We don't know.

We could, we could play to what would Patrice think do game all day and all night. We, we, we, nobody could speak for what Patrice. I just want to clarify something because I didn't get a chance to clarify it.

And then by all means, ask me whatever. I wasn't saying that she wasn't a veteran or that she hadn't earned her spot. What I was saying was to make a comparison to Dave Chappelle, to compare Dave Chappelle to anyone. He's on such a different stratosphere with everything. I think that people celebrate a lot of things that Dave Chappelle do differently than if it would have been anybody else. So what I was saying was, if what she had done in comparison to someone at her same caliber, I think they would have had the same things to say i don't think that they treated dave chapelle different because he was a guy necessarily i think they treat dave

chapelle special because he's dave chapelle i disagree i just think that it was he did the same thing and no one mentioned no one had anything and you're right, Dave Chappelle is Dave Chappelle, but I know people who were like, it wasn't funny. I don't know why no one's talking about how it wasn't funny. I mean, I love Dave Chappelle too, but I know comics who were like, didn't he just do what

Nanette did? How come no one's talking about that? Well, did they say it admiringly or they were critical of him? They were admiring it, but they were just also aware of the fact that we had just attacked Hannah Gadsby for doing pretty much the same thing, be compelling in her stand-up routine, which wasn't necessarily joke for joke for joke for joke and so they were saying he was compelling and she was compelling but why was she such a conversation and why was the conversation dropped when it came to him is it because he's a black man who's talking about it you know george floyd in a very critical time you know maybe she opened the door for day chapelle to be able to that's one way of looking like that she opened the doors you didn't know her

at the time in america we didn't know her so people are judging her as this right new kid in town where chappelle has already built up so much goodwill and love that uh obviously he's not going to get the same criticism as somebody that's just showed up one day as far as we know because we didn't know we're in america i i i didn't see it that way i saw chapelle as a as a basically a national treasure type institution who shared with us his feelings about this moment and we were interested in it because we've we've grown to respect dave chapeappelle's opinion on things so much. But if that were the only thing we'd ever heard from Dave Chappelle, I don't think anybody would have given it any notice at all, really. We listen to it because it's Dave, and we want to know what he has to say.

But it wasn't an act, is what I'm saying. Hannah Gadsby, she has an act. She did that same thing every night. She went out there and she, she honed it. And that was her, her, that wasn't her act. Her act was very different from that for years. I mean, I know that wasn't the only, she didn't, she didn't videotape that hour doing it off the cuff. I mean, it was a well-oiled presentation.

I guess what I'm saying is that's what she, her goal was to be compelling about something that she was feeling at the time and it was not expected to become an act. Yeah. Well, listen, I think that, and then I want to, I want to get to what I want to ask Vons something, but I think that this is true in music and probably in any art form. When you're very close to it, when you do it yourself, you have a certain mental checklist that you go through when you're judging other people doing it that an audience member doesn't necessarily have.

And that's what I was trying to say. Like when I, even though I'm in sort of in the comedy business, I don't really look at it that way. So I just watched this show. I'm like, wow, this is interesting. And I didn't find the need to say, well, wait a second. Is it comedy? Is it not comedy? Were there jokes? Were there this? Like, I didn't find the need to say well wait a second is it comedy is it not comedy were there jokes or this like I didn't care about any of that stuff I'm like well she's on stage and she's holding an audience and it's interesting right and I'm

thinking about it the next day but comedians will say but that's not comedy who is she to say she's like it's important to them like who is she to say this is a comedy routine so they so they go down that rabbit hole i guess and and that's how a lot of um things a lot of great performers have been missed that way the audience takes to them even eddie murphy went through this but in music like people like bob dylan or whatever it is um various even you know even rap when it first came out was very quite disrespected by musicians of every color because it, because it was no melody and they're just, they're just doing, you know, rapping to beats or whatever it is. It was the audience that, that picked up on it. The audience didn't give a shit that there were no chords or whatever it is. The audience just

enjoyed it. And then the musicians came around and then the musicians began to understand, oh, this is actually the expression of enormous talent, just like what I was doing is expression of talent. So the audience is quite often out in front on these things. But this is what I wanted to ask Vaughn, in my opinion. I'm not completely up on the human aspect of all this. And I think it's interesting to the audience. And I would like to know, how long was he sick before he died? And what did he know about his health problems? What could he have done when he was warned of them to change, to have saved his own life, these kinds of things? What can you tell us about that? Well, his conditions were hereditary. So he was sick as far as I know, since early 17, I believe it was. He's always been diabetes, obesity, eventually high blood pressure.

So to answer the question, what did he do? Around, I would say, was it like 2005, he went into the hospital, his blood pressure was up. And from that point on, I was like, was it like 2005, he went into the hospital, his blood pressure was up. And from that point on, I was like, look, we're not missing no doctor's appointments. And, and I, we're not arguing about medicine. You know, he was really good with taking his medicine. And I'm just like, well, if you're going on a road or whatever, if I asked you 30 times, did you remember it? I don't want to argue about it let's not and he never argued with me about any of those things we we went to all the doctor's appointments from 2005 on very very strict and trying to figure out his medicine because the

high blood pressure medicine conflicts with diabetes and those medications. And there was always something happening at the, as far as trying to figure all those things out, as far as his health and his diet, we were vegan for three years. His idea, he cooked, I wasn't the cook, he cooked. We would have cookouts and barbecues and he would make tons of every meat, fish, chicken, you name it. We had it. Alcohol. Neither one of us are drinkers so three years from 2008 to 2011 the same year he passed away we were vegan and just trying to figure out how how to keep him alive right and i used to use his mom as an example, actually, because I'm like, look, she's way older.

What is she in her 60s or whatever at the time? And I'm like, she has all the same conditions. And, you know, eventually, yeah, you know, these things may affect you at some point. But, you know, we don't have to worry about it until you get older. Let's just do all the things that we could do now. And, you know, we'll worry about it in your 60s or 70s. You'll at least live as long as moms, right? She's the example. She's here. But in life, that's not always the case, right? So there were absolutely a lot of efforts. When I first met Patrice, I couldn't even put my arms around him. And then eventually,

when we will go to the doctor, he would never get on the scale. He's like, it's not gonna, I'm heavier than what the scale is. So he would never get on a scale. So whenever we would go to the doctor, I would do this thing. But, and eventually 2011, you know, I was able to, I'm like, look, I could completely hug you now. When we first met, that wasn't even possible. So he definitely lost weight along the way. Yeah. Did he struggle with food? Absolutely. Did he struggle with medication? Absolutely. But at the end of the day, the thing that I learned is when it's your time to go, it's your time to go. You could do all these things to try and stay healthy. And I will defend him to the

day I die on that. He was not frivolous with his life and his struggles. He definitely, you know, put in as much effort as he could, at least during the time I was with him. That's the only time I could speak of in those, in the stretch that we were together. I saw some white chocolate covered Oreos. White Oreos dipped in chocolate, man. I couldn't, it was, I was in tears. Like, knowing I shouldn't eat it, but I was in pain. Like, going, oh my God. And I'm talking to myself, I can't eat these cookies, man.

And they're calling me and I'm praying to God. And I'm lactose intolerant. But like, if I eat these cookies, I gotta drink milk too. I'm gonna I'm lactose intolerant but like if I eat these cookies I gotta drink milk too I'm gonna go out like a soldier it's like whatever then you say all kind of weird stuff to you to rationalize eating them I'll be like you know what I don't need both my feet I'm not a I'm not a ballerina all I need is one so I can drive my car. There was something in the documentary, I don't remember what it was,

that indicated he was fatalistic, that he had some sense that he might not be around for a long time. And I wonder, is that true? Well, that's where those conversations came from. We made a lot of life decisions based on the fact that he would say, I'm not going to live long. And that's when I would bring up like,

your mom is still alive. She's, you know, this is not going to take you at an early age. That was in response of me saying, of him saying things like that all the time. You think that made him funnier in some way, dealing with that kind of darkness is foreboding about the future. I think, I don't know a comic, and all I know is comics.

I've been around nothing but comics for the past 20 something years. And I include myself in saying this. I don't know a single comic that doesn't have a lot of dark issues that make them funny. Yeah. Well, Gary Gould was talking about that and he said, and I agree with him,

that darkness and funniness seem to go together, but darkness doesn't necessarily make you funny. The best thing to do is to try to become healthy and then you'll be even more productive comedically. Right. And this is where you have to bring in, you know, some of the stuff that Marina was saying earlier about being artistic and an artist and all of these things.

If you rely on whatever darkness or whatever you think it is that makes you funny, if it's, if it's you being overweight or if it's your whatever, and that's what you rely on, then you'll get stuck in there and then you'll never heal from that. But as a human being, every single person on this earth has some type of issue, right? Everybody is dark. That doesn't mean everybody is funny. But people like us that are artistic with it find that place. I'll speak just for myself on this.

It's a place where I come from growing up. And it was just our culture. It was how I was. It was how people around me was. It was just finding anything is funny because you got to survive and you got to find a way to feel good because there's a lot of effed up stuff happening all around you. So you just survive in laughter. We made fun of everything growing up and that that helped us live laughter really is medicine not to be cliche or corny but that's what it really is and the people that find themselves

as artists doing it um i would hope that they don't get stuck on that one thing like oh if i heal this then i'm not gonna be funny no you got plenty of other issues that's still going to be funny but he's still single I mean it seems to be working that I remain single Marina you have to heal from that I don't know you'll be funny married trust me well there's plenty of jokes that you'll get from being married. I mean, Dan tried to date me just for jokes in a sitcom. Well, I think it was a reasonable strategy. Terrible

strategy. We would have had a good show, though, if we had a kid. That was back in the day when comics were getting lots of deals based on their lives, you know? So I thought to myself, well, you know, this would be interesting to present to an ad work. Can I?

An interracial couple. I just thought of something to circle back to something we were talking about earlier, an experience I had on stage that I brought my issues to. And in terms of the crowd, attacking the crowd, I had a really hard lesson handed to me at this show. It was somewhere in Brooklyn years ago. There was a girl sitting front and center, arms folded with the gas face face just mean mugging and it just it kept her energy and her face just kept pulling me out of my moment and I decided oh she poking a bear with all that energy she's a girl girls don't like her all of these insecure girl things going through my head and I lit her ass up I went in I went in and after the

show she came up to me and she was like can I speak to you for a minute I was like oh man I don't really want to fight this should I run and he said to me I'll never forget it she was like I'm so sorry I wasn't looking at you like that. It had nothing to do with you. Apparently, her boyfriend who she was with, she saw him like texting somebody. I thought this was all about me bringing all my issues to the stage, thinking this, thinking that. Meanwhile, her whole attitude, energy, and mean mugging was because she just discovered her man was cheating on her but i thought she hated me because what you you sitting there with your man you know what i mean that insecure girl thing and i was like wow lesson learned they got all that material about you

it's not always about you even though you're always about you, even though you're on stage, right? So you could be looking at an audience member and rip their ass apart for something that ain't even had nothing to do with you. I bet that material was good, right? Did you keep it? I felt bad. You know, I'm a good person. Hell yeah, I kept it.

So Marina, what she's trying to say, Marina, is it's not all about you. Anyway, I think we have to wrap it up. No, my kale is done. This whole episode was about Marina. Thank you for coming, Marina. I think that sometimes people die and then they kind of fall off the radar. And it's not always apparent at the time it happens, you know, what that outlook is.

But Patrice, since he's died, has only grown and grown in the estimation of comics, some of whom were too young, you know, have only experienced him on video and stuff like that. And that is an objective measure of a person's talent, much more than the trendy in the moment estimations that people make, which can be quite wrong. When somebody grows through the passage of time after their death,

I think that is about as sure an indication as there can be of real talent and substance. So I think it's very, it's just nice that he has that in death, that he's getting really all the respect that he deserved. So that's- And if I could just add to that, I had a cab driver or Uber driver,

sorry, in Miami, in Austin, Texas during the South by Southwest Florida. And he asked me that specific question. He goes, can I ask you something? Why didn't Patrice become that guy?

And I think this documentary for individuals like that, who always wanted to know why he wasn't this guy it's kind of it kind of it's good for them yeah and look at the end of the day I felt like he he was absolutely well on his way to figuring it out right he came to terms with a lot of things and as far as business and he had goals and he had plans and and for me when he died I just went into this super work mode and making sure I could do everything to keep his legacy alive and push it forward and and other than the documentary and and having um some closure with that and really getting his his real personality out there as best as I could and humanizing him.

Along the way, I produced three of his comedy albums, Mr. P, Unreleased, and The Lost Files. All of that stuff you can find on his website, patricionale.com. And the documentary hopefully has a long life to it. And again, I feel like it was all definitely deserving and not just because he passed and you want to keep his legacy alive and, and, and, and introduce it to future generations to come. But just because I, for me,

I just felt like he was, he was figuring it out. He was figuring business out, personal life out. He was figuring all out and then just for him to be gone was very difficult to let go of. So I've been quietly and separately from my own stuff working on doing everything I could do to make sure that he's remembered well responding to Marina's cab drivers or Uber drivers question you know a lot of people aren't that guy at 41 years old comedy can sometimes take a long time Louis wasn't necessarily that guy until about 45, Mark Maron, 45, 46. But for this guy, he was gone and the answer wasn't there for him. So that's why this documentary, it fills that gap and that hole for those people who always had that question about why some people make it or as they perceive as some people making

it and some people not making it. I think this documentary does an amazing job at answering that question for people, for fans. Also, Vaughn, I would say that there must have been something quite special about him for you to be so devoted to him 10 years after. That says something about who he was as a person that only you and the closest people to him would know what that is. But it's clear he had that.

Well, Patrice was a very loyal, loving person. Patrice loved me the best way he could, right? We all love each other in different ways. When you love someone, you love them how you know how, right? He loved me. He loved my daughter. I always felt, I always felt loved with him. And I'm, I'm the type of person that's very reciprocal in relationships. And, and on top of that, very, very loyal to a fault, you know, and I just, I, I I think you know

10 years with him 10 years without him but still working on all of these things is 20 years of my life and I don't know I think we should break up at this point I have to go

I have a show coming up but the wonders of technology coming to you from Aruba Dutch West Indies this was a good show Noam I think and something that comedy fans in particular will like we didn't get any of the huge issues of the week

perhaps we can do another episode what happened better to do that without Marina. Listen, everything. But Perry, please make sure to ask Lou to cut in some a few of Patrice's bits into this for serious, especially. And mine, too. You could cut mine into. I'm just saying I could do more.

And I realize that, you know, I don't do enough. And I think it's age, too. I'm older than I look. You know, I'm black, so you'll never know. But it's happening. It's setting in where you say the wrong things, you don't know stuff. I'm not as woke... as I should be, and it's embarrassing.

Like, I've been messing up on my pronouns lately because I met someone who was not a guy or a girl. They were a they, which is how they wanted to be referred to, and that's important. Like, I care about that. It's just, it's new to me. And in a sentence, structurally,

it makes me sound like a runaway slave. Like, where they at? They's coming? They down by the river. They gonna be mad at that joke. Thank you. Thank you. I also see Marina on FX and Hulu. Hilarious. Hysterical.

I don't have a special yet, but you can listen to my comedy album. My debut comedy album was recently released. Funnyvon.com to get my comedy mixtape, A Dragable Offense. Yay for Von! Bye, everybody. And the podcast at ComedySally.com. We'll see you next time. I'm going to tell you a quick love story, man. Bye everybody. we're really uh really dirty man we're really dirty we pee on each other in the hole but that's don't get past that because this is true love so so i'm we're having sex right about two years ago this happened we're having sex and then

uh afterwards she's like you know that was good but i think we gotta go to the hospital get you checked out i said why she said because your pee tastes like birthday cake and isn't that love if you could get past the pee part that's love right well she's like oh your pee is too delicious i don't i don't like that she didn't go you peed in my mouth you nasty she's just like oh my god your pee tastes i don't like the way it tastes it tastes scrumptious what am i doing you see these three goofy girls look they like me that means you're not gonna love me to the degree that I need to save my life, are you?

No. I don't need you. I don't need you if you can't taste my B and go, something's wrong. You need to go check yourself. Judge me.